Testudinology (TORTOISES) Encore with Amanda Hipps

Oh hey, twenty twenty two, me here taking a few weeks to be with my family after my dear dad's passing. For more on what's been going on there, you can listen to the secrets at the ends of episode starting around mid April with the squid encore. But here's another gem of an episode that I love. I hope you dig it. Oh hey, it's that lady in front of you at the grocery store who didn't realize she was

Thank you.

Welcome to LA. And now where are you from?

I'm from Florida, from South Florida. Oh you are like Fishermantown, Stuart.

Did you grow up going to beaches a bunch or romping and swamps? Were you beach?

I was mostly like I liked the beach. It's it's fine, but I mostly I was in the woods or the swamps, and so yeah, that was kind of My family really loved hiking. So that was a lot of what we did is just hike.

What are the Florida swamps like?

Take me to so smelly? Are so great? I love them.

She loves a smelly swamp? How much do you like her? Already? So much? I don't think I've ever been in a proper swamp.

Oh my gosh, you had to come.

Yeah.

So yeah, so just even like hiking in a swamp. It's called slogging, and I love this and I don't know, it's just it's like kind of it's super creepy, Like I you never know what you're gonna bump into. There's alligators and snakes and just tons of mosquitoes, which is maybe the most unpleasant part of all of it. But I don't know. It's just like a very mysterious place and it's like very little hiked. There's you know, not too many people that you'll run into out there.

So how in danger of getting chomped? Are you?

I you just just have to watch where you're going. Yeah, it's you know, just be cautious. And but I've never had it. I've never really like bumped into an alligator and they're so scared, like they're usually they usually kind of disappear if they see you coming. But you have to be careful.

What's the craziest shit you've ever seen in a swamp? I'm sorry, I'm going to just start another podcast called swamp Talking.

Oh my god, I love it. I got a really cool picture when I was in the swamp of a cotton mouth and he was just chilling.

And cotton mouths are the ones that can they can bite you bad.

Right, yeah, they can. They are venomous.

And so those are the ones that everyone they see like a dirty hose at a gas station and they're like, it's a cotten math.

Yeah, yeah, that's yeah, that's exactly it.

So side note, if you've listened to the herpetology episode with doctor David Stein, you may remember the hashtag not a cotton mouth, in which he educates the public about the snakes that are frequently in fact not cotton mouse. And he sometimes educates someone so hard that I am in a good mood for days. Afterward he just owns them. Do you think that your swamp romping kind of contributed to your wanting to be a herpetologist of some kind? Yeah?

Absolutely. Oh what's crazy is that I I never considered being a wildlife biologist actually, like going to school and doing my undergrad I was so lost. I knew I wanted to work with wildlife, but I didn't really have like exposure to any of the sciences, and so I kind of just thought, like, I want to work with animals, I should probably go to VET school. And that's kind of the guidance that I got, Like, I think that's what everyone told me. It was just to go to

Okay, buckle up for a winding backstory that proves no one's life is linear, and that is beautiful and awesome.

So I started. I did my entire undergrad kind of just gearing it towards going to bet School. And that's really like, I planned my entire life around that school. So I did all of my undergrad courses with that, and I ended up working for the Jacksonville Zero. I was an intern at the Jacksonville Zoo Animal Hospital, and I was I know, it was so great. It was very cool. It was very hard in some circumstances. It was dealing with mostly wildlife and native wildlife and doing

So gopher tortoise territory is in the eastern southern United States, but most remaining gopher tortoises are in fact Floridians. So they're about a foot long, they're between eight and twelve pounds. Ladies are bigger, hello, and they have these strong scaly legs that are like alive garden trowels. And Amanda was also helping rehab injured tortoises, working sometimes for months with individuals whose shells had been split until they healed, and

I feel like I should try to figure out how to help them in other ways. I would really like to get to know them from like the wildlife perspective. I started kind of like reading about gopher tortoises because I just was fascinated by them.

What kind of game do these gopher tortoises have? How does a gopher tortoise slowly burrow its way into your heart? I don't know, it's so crazy.

I think it was more just feeling like there were so many that were coming in and I don't know why. I don't know how they did it. How did they do that? As far as like really how they stole my heart, I'm really not sure. I don't know how that happened.

So you started reading and reading about them, and you're like, oh, no, I've become obsessed with gopher tortoises.

Exactly what happened. Yeah, I don't know. I started just like looking into them because I was like, oh, they're what's called keystone species. And that's where I started learning, you know, all about gopher tortoises and all like this. This is a really incredible animal. And I was learning about their burrows and how so many other animals will share their burrows and it's oh, really important for the ecosystem.

Yeah, so they have stowaways. Yes, Is that what a keystone species is?

Not necessarily No, So, like the beaver is considered an ecological engineer in a keystone species because they're rearranging habitat. They're taking these trees, they're building dams, they're altering hydrology of rivers, and that's like ultimately affecting the wildlife that's coming. It's affecting the entire ecosystem. Same thing with the gopher tortoise. They dig these massive burrows. Oh they'll be they can be up to forty feet long.

They're burrows. Or the tortoise they're kid just really a stretch limousine tortoise.

They're like, damn, I wonder why it's.

Getting hit man. That's says forty feet long. Okay, so they're burrows can be just like catacombs.

Yeah, they dig these massive burrows. There's a size of the tortoise. The shape of it is just like a tortoise. But they can be up to forty feet on average, they're like fifteen to twenty Like I've definitely seen ones that are bigger.

Damn. So side note, I just went and looked up videos of these turtles with these bodonka butts just flinging sand like little machines behind them, and it's the adorable list. Their burrows are kind of like if you had a tortoise silhouette from behind that was a cookie cutter that you just bored deep into a hillside, like.

These other animals are using it. There's some species that have just co evolved with them and have are like, are fully reliant on them.

I want to live in a gopher tortoise burrow me too. That sounds more spacious than my apartment in Los Angeles, to be honest, like square footage wise, yeah, damn.

But then you have all these roommates, that's true.

There's moles and like weavils.

It's just coming in like yeah, taking over.

And so you started learning that they're this keystone species because the work that they do lets other animals kick it with them.

Exactly.

They were like, they're the kind of people that like buy a big house in Tarzana and they're like pool party on Sunday, come over. Literally, that's exactly that's what they do.

They do. This is what a party looks like, I mean, and like it's it's it's used for many different reasons. Some of them are like some animals are coming in to feed, some of them are coming to just a site for reproduction. There's a number of insects, which is actually what I'm studying, that are living in these burrows and they're fully reliant on the gopher tortoise, but they also have this mutualistic relationship where they're feeding on dungs. They're like the house keeping service.

So we can you imagine if your maids, like I ate your garbage.

Yeah, they come in clean it. They're eating. They're just living their life and rolling around and shit, and it's they're not just any dung beetle though, it's like they're very specific. They're only eating poop. They might be eating poop, but they're really particular about what they like, what kind

I've allowed here.

Yeah, that's kind of just how I got started. And then that's when I was like, there's this whole field of wildlife biology. Oh my god, what am I doing here?

So Amanda had been working on projects studying the reproductive success of for turtles, and she still had plans to go to VET school. She even applied and she was accepted, but she just like she just wasn't really sold on it.

I ended up just being like like, I don't think I want to go. I don't really want to work with just cats and dogs. And so I kind of got involved with with like exotic animals and like working with Adabat in Colorado and he worked mostly with reptiles, and I just still I really didn't like it. I was like, I don't want to be in a hospital. I really wanted to be outside.

So that's such a difference. I guess, like having your parking spot and your coffee mug, and like you know where you're going to sleep, you know what time you're waking up, versus some people probably couldn't handle what I'm now calling swamp ramping, yeah, or like you know, burrow recording or whatever. Like I guess it really depends on what kind of lifestyle you want right exactly, how clean you want your fingernails tack.

Oh my god, it's so true. I wanted to be dirty, It's true. I yeah, I didn't love working inside. I liked working with the animals, but I didn't really love the work itself. So that's when I was like, Okay, I don't want to do this anymore. And so I went to Madagascar and.

Whoa, that's not that's not Florida. You're like by Florida.

Yeah. So I went to Madagascar and kind of got onto this internship where I was studying reptiles but mostly snakes, and that was amazing. It was a really really great experience and that's really what got me into Like I was like this is it? Like, this is the best that I felt.

You're like ectotherms? Are my people?

Yeah?

Yeah? Are they ectotherms?

They are?

Oh man, for a second, my brain froze and I thought I got that wrong and I was mortified. But yes, yes, okay, of course turtles are ectotherms. That means that they rely on external sources of heat, which is why you'll see turtles just basket on a log like pasty Florida spring Breakers, and also why it's so important to dig out burrows, which are pretty much like walking into an air conditioned movie theater in July, but darker and full of dirt

Honestly, when it comes to connecting with p people in the turtle world, it's social media, really yeah, turtle Twitter, Instagram, It's Twitter, turtle Twitter. I mean there's so many like turtle groups on Instagram.

Look, okay, when you say turtle groups, are these like the sea turtle people, the tortoise people, the turtle people. Okay, yeah, they're.

All like yeah, I kind of think if you're a turtle person, you're a tortoise person, vice versa.

All right, that's a good segue because we need to get to this right now. I mean I should have asked you this the second you walked in the door. Turtle versus tortoise, what's the deal?

Okay, well, tortoises are turtles. Okay, they are turtles, but they're just adapted to living life on land, so their limbs are different, their legs are built for walking and digging.

So a sea turtle really should have a should a sea turtle have a different name, like a turtle that way, like a turtle, you know, like the turtles like just like a whatever. We're all turtles and then you're fully see you're a turtle, you're fully land, you're a tortoise. You're maybe a little bit of both your turtle, but you're all turtles.

I think we need to talk about this. Okay, this needs to be This needs to me be a chang dreaming.

I mean, I just feel like, let's get specific about turtles. Give me some just overall anatomical facts about turtles because here's the thing about turtles. We know there's stuff going on under that shell. Oh yeah, like what is happening under that shell? It's like if there's a silver dome over a platter of food and it's just a mystery cloaked in fancy armor. We don't know what kind of organs. Do they have five hearts? How many butts do they have?

Okay, well yeah, I know that it's that that's where it all happens. That's where everything's happening.

A party is under the shell.

So with the shell, the ribs and the spine are like built in to the shell and to the top of the shell, so it's part of it. So tortoise can't leave it shell. I mean, that is everything. A lot of people really do think that they can just walk off and find a new one if they're growing.

Well, there's some flim flam we debunked. Yeah, they're stuck with that shell for life. And how is it growing?

Okay, So the shell is bone. Oh yeah, it's bone, and then it's just it has a cover keratin. It's covered in caratin, so it's like our fingernails or hair, but it's bone and so it's growing with the tortoise.

Oh yeah.

And so it's basically like you can age a tortoise by looking at the shell and it's got rings on each of the scutes, and so it's basically like like trying to age a tree.

Oh my god.

Yeah.

So each scute, which is like those parquet floor tiles, kind of gets a new ring every year. Is that? Is that partly because of conditions like in a tree, like the rings happen when there's a lot of water and growth, exactly, is it?

So? Yeah, it's sort of seasonal. So it really does depend on location. So if you're further north, like the gopher tourtist is further north, they are very seasonal. They do have a winter. They're disappearing into the burrow during the winter. They're not eating for months and they're just they're just underground.

Is there hard like one beat a year?

Probably?

It's like the lowest metabolity ever.

Yeah, so why they live so long?

Ps. Not only is next week's episode about sea turtles aka turtles, but you'll want to hold onto your butts, my friends, because in researching how turtles gets how old I came across an ology called biogerontology, and the best biogerontologist in the world, doctor Caleb Finch, is based in La hot Damn. Yes, we recorded an episode on aging,

Everything is just under under that shell?

Are what kind of do they have crazy hearts or do they have like like is there reproductive system indoor outdoor? What kind of plumbing is happening?

So with them with this is for tortoises, you can flip them over and they're at the bottom their belly. The bottom part of the shell is called a plaston, So you look at the plaston and that's probably the best way to tell. So male is going to be it's going to have a dip. Oh, and then the female's going to be flat. Okay, so the male's just just got a concave so you can fit on top of the female.

Oh oh, got it. Yeah, like nesting bowls exactly. I shouldn't ask this so early on, but I'm.

Just I'm ready for this question. I think I know what's coming.

Do they have crazy dicks or what? Okay, I'm so happy. I'm so happy right now. I feel like I saw someone trying to send me a video of like a turtle making love to a shoe, and I was like, what what is that? And I I don't understand what's happening?

Okay, yeah, no, that's because I still look at it and I'm like what, So it's They're incredible. I mean, okay, all right, let's start from from day one.

Okay.

Quite often when we're doing research with them, we have to mark them, we have to weigh them, measure them, and so they will they will expose for us. I think it might just be like just displacement, just kind of I don't. I think they are just uncomfortable and I don't know what's going on.

They're like, I'm uncomfortable, this is awkward. What would help a boner? So they display as a greeting.

Yes, and so.

Yeah there.

Their dicks are massive, they can be. They are huge, and they have to be big because you know, the shell gets in the way. It's just hard to acces. The females makes it hard. So they need to they need to be big. But it can be up to like half the size of like their shell.

Oh my god? What yeah? Is it all stored inside?

It's just it's like, so what happens is when it retracts inside the kouga, it's just it it like lays on top of itself.

And then they whip it out and.

Then whip it out, and then they have tortoises. So it's different for it doesn't it's different for species. So with tortoises, it's so strange. It looks like a flower.

That's what I thought. I was like a pancake.

Yeah, yeah, it's very odd.

But that what what it's How does that behoove them? I mean, because that's got to be more than just distance. Why a hockey puck on a stem?

Or? Like?

Why why a weird inverted mushroom? Like what is it?

Yeah? I'm not sure. I'm honestly not sure how that evolved because it's different for different species. So like the soft shell turtles, they have five lobes, so there is even more crazy looking and I'm not sure why they need that.

Of course I look this up and yes, it has five lobes with like, let's just say four nozzles and the textbook line drawing I saw looked kind of like an abstract outline of an orchid, which is fine, but then you imagine it alive and greenish purple, and you know what, let's actually let's not do that. Okay, let's get just back to the romance of it. Do they meet for life? Are they friends for a long time or is it just like I'll see you next you.

Say, so, we don't. I don't think we really know the answer to that they do. What we do know is that they have you know, we always think of tortoises as just being solitary animals and not having friends or talking, you know, not you know, with anybody, That's really not the case. Really you have found as far as like studies with gopher tortoises go, and I'm sure it applies for you know, other North American tortoises. But they have clicks, they have like these Yeah, just they

Okay, I'm pretty sure what's going on is that these turtles have friends. They're either friends or they're drug dealers popping by the burrows, and so same with same with males.

Uh no, I don't think that that's anything that they saw. So males are visiting females, but they if there's another male around, they're pretty territorial, so they're probably they're not really they're not hanging out with other guys.

Who's digging all these burrows?

Everybody?

Really?

Yeah, they all have their own. They all have like their own and maybe a couple, maybe a summer home in a winter home. Oh so yeah, they might have more than one.

And they they might go in their ten twelve feet stay there on their own, and then come out during the daytime.

Mostly Yeah, so they spend like probably over eighty percent of their time underground. They come out to meet another tortoise that is hanging out. So I'll see the males will they work so hard, they are going from burrow to burrow, female to female and they will bother their head and try and get her to come out of her burrow. And this happens all day long.

So like horny politicians canvassing so terrible.

Yeah, I feel bad for the females because they're just like if they don't if they don't want anything to do with him, it's just like they can't come out. They're just stuck in. But at least they have a good escape. So even if they're out of the barrow and they're grazing and they don't want anything to do with a mail, they'll just they'll take off and head back to a burrow and knock them off. And then is this.

All year round or are they seasonally horriby?

So well, I really I believe that if if it wasn't cold, it would be all year round. So in South Florida where I'm working right now, they're at least courting all year round. So I don't know, I don't think we really know beyond that. But they are courting, so I don't know if they're double nesting. We're not really sure what's going on there.

So from what I understand, double nesting means having another nest in the same breeding season, kind of like when you find out that your grandpa has a second family he hit for decades, except it's your mom and it's a bunch of siblings. Also, okay, let's get back to the nomenclature because this still feels a little murky, kind of like swamp water to me. Okay, turtle versus tortoise. So turtles are partially aquatic, like they'll go dip into a pond for a bit, come back up. What's there?

Well, it de pounds in what we're talking about. If we want to talk about like box turtles, they are mostly land turtles, but they're not a tortoise.

Oh shit, man, break this down for me, break it down. I don't get it. So why they're mostly land but they're a little bit aquatic. Is that the difference or is it just because their legs go out more than they go down.

They're still like near water, they just aren't very good swimmers. So they'll still hang out in water, so like in shallow areas, but they're not really swimming very well. If you were to look at like a slider or a couiter or something like that.

Does that disqualify them from being a tortoise because sometimes they take a dip.

I think it really comes down to how closely related they are.

Oh, that makes some sense. There's some actual like evolutionary lineage. Well, talk to me a little bit about the evolution of turtles and tortoises, because I know that a lot of people are hung up. Did they outlaud the dinosaurs? When did the planet develop turtles? When did they split off into sea turtles and tortoises? Can you walk me through some of that?

I can try, Okay, So I don't think we really have solid answers for any of that. But the theory, one theory is that the link to turtles was a lizard that I think it's called the untosaurus. It's a stout lizard, short legs, kind of like a tortoise body, but without the shell. There were burrowers, and there were I guess a little bit slower just their build and then from there there was a turtle that didn't have

The benefit of the shell is protection mostly.

Yeah, I'm not sure that that's why it evolved. It might have been for digging.

That was my other question. Is this like a because if they make their burrow in the shape of themselves, is it just like a kind of a cool bore into a mountain or is it more like, hey, i'm withdrawing, please do not bother me.

We don't know. So it could have been that it was for for burrowing, for digging, and then it sort of just ended up being like a form of protection.

So up until a few years ago, we thought turtles went back about two hundred and twenty million years until a paper came out in twenty sixteen about this two hundred and sixty million year old lizard in South Africa that developed a shell. Scientists believe for the purpose just a burrowing. The protection just a bonus, kind of like a shovel that you're like, oh, hey, look at that.

Well, it depends on the species.

Okay.

Tortoises like the gopher tortoises are native to the coastal plains of the United States, and so they're using burrows. They're going to be underground. The other North American species, like the desert tortoise out here, they are hiding out under it. They some of them do have short burrows, and they're also higging out like under rocks or things like that.

Why are they so goddamn cute? I know, what is it about a turtle? Like who doesn't trust a turtle? Do you know what I mean? Okay, I will amend that because I did see a picture of an alligator turtle and I was like, oh my.

God, oh my god, I love Yeah.

This is the is like this thing has a hell mouth. What's happening with it?

It is terrifying.

So side note, Okay, the alligator turtle is not a tortoise, but it is a nightmare. So imagine a stout turtle, the largest ever recorded, is said to have tip the scales at over four hundred pounds, and it has three ridges along its back like giant punk rock studs. And then its mouth, Oh it's mouth, y'all? Okay, a spiky beak that could crush bones and a little wormy dew hicky dingle dangle on its tongue that lures a live

Really, but they're like they're like like very like northern Florida.

Okay, they're I did a little bit of research for them for the Food and the Apology episode. We talked about turtle soup and they talked about like a hating a lie, and so I looked it up and I was like, oh my god, what is that? That looks like God's dingleberry. Get it out of here? What is it? What is it? But other turtles are so adorable they are Now how big can turtles get?

Well, if we're talking about tortoises, there's the Galapaghost tortoise, which is the largest.

Oh is it the largest?

I think? I believe you, And then the aldabra and then the African silkata. So like the three largest that are extant that are living today.

While turtles can reach two thousand pounds, the biggest tortoise ever recorded, it seems, was a fellow named Goliath, who weighed over nine hundred pounds, but passed away in two thousand and two. Also dead lonesome George, a Pinta Island Galapagos turtle who was the last of species and the longtime George Clooney of tortoises, eligible but single. Lonesome George, despite trying, sadly never produced any offspring, passed away in

Oh? Wow, so they? I wouldn't call him ears, Okay, what is the term for it?

They are called nubbins.

Call it?

You will call him nubbs.

Okay. It's mostly through vibration, is how they're hearing.

Or it's true.

So yeah, you're not seeing an ear.

If you were to whisper to a turtle, how much you liked it, do you think it could hear you?

I I don't know, Okay, all right, I looked it up and they are not sadly called nubbins, but rather tympanums, which is a disc membrane at the back of the face.

Now, could a turtle hear you if you whispered how much you love it? I looked into it, and probably so. In one paper that lamented the lack of auditory knowledge of turtles, I did find that what is known is that turtles have a higher hearing threshold than other reptiles, with best frequencies heard around five hundred hertz. Now, according to Satloff's Comprehensive Textbook of Autoleryngology, it is noticed that

If you have tortoises, I know that, like with my tortoise.

He wait a second, Oh god, you have a tortoise. Okay, oh my god, wait what this was a huge revelation. So you're a tortoise owner.

I am.

You're a tortoise lord. That's exciting. Who is he? Is he a boy or a girl?

A boy?

Okay?

His name is Banchie?

His name is Banchie.

Yeah. I named him when I was seven.

Oh my gosh, he's so old. He's well, you're so young. How did you obtain him?

Oh my gosh, it's a terrible story. So, and I don't encourage it. Okay, this is why I don't really talk about him. Okay, I'm actually it's.

A good it's is it a cautionary tale?

Yeah?

Did you buy him on the black market? No?

Okay, I did get him from a pet store.

Okay, so it happened.

Yeah, well, okay, So I was a little girl seven, I don't really remember, it's probably like around ten, and I was like, Dad, I really want a tortoise, like I begged my father tortoise. Oh yes, And so he was like on board of it because he's like it seems like a animal, like take care of No big deal. So we went to the pet store. I picked out a tortoise. It was relatively large, but I mean, I don't want to say large. He was probably like he

And so he was already he wasn't like a tiny quarter sized tortoise. He was already doing a thing. He probably had like a routine of personality. He had a thing. And so you took him home and you're like, I'm a tortoise owner. Were you did?

You came? Like what I got? And oh my God, she freaked. Really she started she was like, what is that? And she got on the computer and started like looking up like Africans look at a tortoise, and she's like, she freaked out of my dad.

So these get large.

They get huge, huge, and they live forever. So she's like doing her research and she like freaked out of my dad, and she's like, what are we doing. We just adopted in the thing that's going to like outlive our daughter. And so we they we just we did it.

They did it.

They wanted to keep him. We all fell in love with him, and he's he's definitely been a part of the family for you know, for like much of my life.

How big is he?

He is probably about one hundred and twenty five pounds. Wait a second, I feel like he's still growing. I don't know, but I really hope he is not.

Wait, how big is that?

Like?

Is it the size of a coffee table? Half the size of coffee table?

Yeah?

I mean she looked down at my coffee table, a wooden slab that is fifty one inches long. I measured it later.

Okay, I'm looking at your coffee table. Okay, I'm thinking three.

Quarters Oh my God, that's a huge probably maybe half okay, so we're talking more than half. We're talking like the size of like a cafe table. Yeah, he's a huge tortoise.

He's pretty big. Where does he live in my backyard? What does he deals with my parents? Still?

Okay?

He eats hey, okay, grass, he grazes. Yeah, it's not an easy pet though. So he has a pretty good like space, but he needs a lot of space. And then we have to consider you know, a burrow and enrichment and you know, how to keep him happy and healthy. And it's a lot of work.

And how have things changed when it comes to turtle ownership in the last couple of decades do you think.

They like there's definitely more information, Like when we first got him, there wasn't a whole lot. There wasn't like it was like you're fine feeding him fruit and vegetables from your fridge, you know, and it's not it's not okay. So there's a lot more information, for sure, And I do think that people are you know, understanding as far as like enrichment and how to take care of them. But there's still a lot that's unanswered and we're still figuring out a lot.

So do you think that having Banshie, do you think that he informed kind of your interest in turtles or do you think that he predated it because you already wanted a tortoise.

I don't know. I'm not really sure why I wanted him. I don't know why that why I was so intrigued. It made me feel like I needed to get more involved. He's my pet, and I kind of feel bad owning him because I look at him, and now that I'm working with wildlife, I'm like, man, like, this is what you're missing out of. It's sort of difficult to to think about him not being able to live that kind of life like a lot of wild tortoises.

You mean like getting it on.

Yeah, I mean, look at it. I mean, it's just it happens all day long, right, it does.

Well, maybe it's something like being homeschooled, Like there are benefits you don't have to deal with bullies, you don't have to deal with anyone throwing a milk carton at you, but you also miss out on like that's some weird shit.

Yeah, you know, yeah, I do think that that they can live a good life in captivity. Although I don't think it's ideal necessarily, So I think that there are good owners and and people do take you know, they love their tortoises in the turtles, but it it's hard, and I think it's like before you go into trying to get a tortoise and deciding to adopt one, there's a couple of things you need to look at. You need to make sure that you have a backup plan.

Oh my god, isn't it crazy that when you write a will, and you're probably too young to have done so, you have to include something about Banshee and your will. I do.

Yeah, it's terrifying. I'm like, I don't I don't know.

I don't know.

I don't even have kids. Like, where is this tortoise going to go? It's very scary. And even now I'm still you know, he's still with my parents. I don't have a house. I don't know what's going to happen. And so that's where before you get an animal like this, you really have to be you know, know where you are, Are you settled? Are you settled down? And yeah, it's and then you know what's going to happen when you're gone.

To google it? Yeah, get and do it.

Yes, and also know where it's coming from because the you know, the pet trade can be pretty hard on wildlife. It's not good for wildlife. So no, you know, definitely know where the animal is coming from. Right.

You hear those stories about dudes that like get through TSA with parakeets in their pants. It's so terrible, I know, but it's also like, man, there's got to be a better way to make a living.

No kidding, I'm putting like.

Snakes in your pants. I'm a flag. And so when it comes to age and turtles and tortoises, because obviously banshee is going to live to be one million years old. Yeah, but why do they live so long? I mean I read I saw this thing online about a turtle and her one she was one hundred and forty years old and her newborn baby turtle, and I was like, they just keep going And can I mention being one hundred and forty years old and you're like, here's my infant son.

Yeah, So that falls into they have a really slow metabolism. So if you think about like a hummingbird that's going one thousand miles a minute, I don't really know how fast they go, but a hummingbird probably isn't going to last more than a couple of years. Yeah, same with little mice is exactly really high metabolism.

I think that the President of the United States uses this argument to avoid exercise because he thinks that you only have a certain number of heartbeats per lifetime.

Yeah, no, that's not okay, Yeah, I think they continue doing your exercise.

Yeah. I think he thinks that you have a finite number, and that's like why he's not super active. I'm going to fact check this just so that nobody just thinks that I'm shit talking. This is gonna be this is just going to be bolstered.

In fact, other than golf, he considers exercise misguided, arguing that a person, like a battery, is born with a finite amount of energy.

Okay, all right, So moving on. Why are they so damn slow?

Their shell The shell just doesn't give them. It's heavy in the way, and so they yeah, they really can't. I really don't think that they'd be so slow if they didn't have the shell. I mean, I've seen there are tortoises that I they're slow, but really like they can be fast when they want to.

They can book it.

They can book it.

Yeah.

I posted a video of a gopher tortois on Twitter. This is like, I don't know, probably a year ago, and she saw me on a trail and she got freaked out, but her burrow was actually closer to me, so she booked it towards me.

Oh but yeah.

Everybody was intrigued. They were like, I had no idea tortoise could run like that.

And then what's the biggest myth about turtles that you're just over?

Oh my gosh, it's the old man. Maybe the old man.

Liked they look like Grandpa's. Yeah, but they have different personalities turtle.

They really do. Oh my gosh, even in the field with biold animals. When I get to work out in the field sites with them, I feel like I can I can definitely identify some of them that I see that I come across like frequently, just based on their personality. So we have let me tell you, Okay, this girl, she's my favorite tortoise. Her name is Grumpy Gertrude.

Oh my god, I love her already.

So we when I would enter the field site, my advisor was the one who introduced me to her. But she would beat her burrows, like right at the entrance of the field site, and so when you come in, she would just like she would defend her territory. So anybody that came in, she'd come out bobbing her head, which is a sign of defense, and just trying like she was away. And so she's just very territorial. She's really aggressive. I have a video of her attacking my camera.

And can they they can get all the way in them so that they're just like I'm a rock bitch. H Yeah, but some like sea turtles can't do that correct, Okay, but all other turtles and tortoises can be completely like close to gone fishing. So she says, it's soft shell turtles, which are not tortoises or turtles, but are aquatic turtles who look kind of like a rubbery pancake made out of mud. They'll also flippityflop about without tucking in their legs.

I love my field work, so it's hot and muggy. It's Florida South Florida scrub habitat, so there's no shade. I it depends on what I'm doing. So if I'm looking for insects, I am serving burrows, so I usually go in with a camera scope and I can get a view of like what's inside the burrow, can measure it in that sense too. Sometimes I see stuff with a camera sometimes I'll see snakes, sometimes I'll see frogs. It's really cool. And then from there, I'll like try

Just cool, But you're trying to figure out, okay, with these gopher tortoises, who is eating their shit? We have to find out how many species are would be affected if these gopher tortoises were wiped exactly right. Why are they getting so wiped?

Cars, cars, habitat loss.

Yeah, we're making too many malls.

Yeah yeah, they're just they're being pushed out. So it's really sad to see, especially in South Florida where there's just really high pressure to develop and so they're just constantly being relocated, the tortoises, and so they're getting relocated, but a lot of the other animals are getting left behind.

No, So that's so that research is important to protect them. What kind of measures are being taken right now to protectses.

Well, it's no longer. I mean in the past you could basically just build on top of them. You can't cover the burrows.

No, yeah, like a mausoleum. Yeah, that's so awful. Yeah, how long would they be living under there?

Probably months that they can deal with like very little oxygen, and so yeah, they would just be underground.

And so we're not doing that.

We're not doing that anymore. So you do have to get a permit if you want to. And there's tortoises on the land and so now they get relocated. There's a lot that goes into it, though, So they have to get relocated. But you can't just dump them a you know, another site. They're so specific to like the area.

Start like kind of give up and be like, oh, I guess I live here.

This is it. Yeah, So then those pens like eventually they can be taken out and they can be able to like go out into the tortoist population. But yeah, oh so it's a process.

It's not just like yeah, yeah, oh, are there any movies about turtles or tortoises that you love or hate?

You know, Ninja Turtles is like probably like the only one that really comes to mind, either burrows or sewers.

Yeah. I didn't realize how accurate that was so true, because those really are long tunnels.

They are.

Who knew that was factual? The pizza's factual, right, definitely? Yeah, Okay, the backflips actual? Okay, Patreon questions you ready for some lightning round?

I am ready for this.

People love turtles. Excited people love turtles.

I like turtles.

So before we get to the Patreon questions, however, quick break to tell you a word about this week's charity, who is getting a donation from the ologies community. So Amanda chows the nonprofit Alongside Wildlife Foundation dot org, which is a five oh one c three nonprofit supported by a grassroots network of people just passionate about wildlife conservation and they do research and outreach. They promote science based

Please tell me what we've got? A penis question. I know we already talked about it.

Oh of course we did. Okay, Lee Shavis wants to know straight out, how did you get your job? I'm obsessed with turtles and tortoises and I would love to do something with them, either professionally or volunteering. How can you get up in that turtle world?

Okay, well, I you know it's hard to say. I don't even know how I got this one.

You're like, how did I get here? How did I love it?

I know, it just sort of just happened again. How to get involved so you can look, you know, for whatever is in your area, like you know, figure out what species are around you and see if you can volunteer. There's you know, if you're out west, like here, there's a Desert Tortoise Council and there's the Go for Tortoise Council.

In the East, you got a network turtle people. There's turtle Twitter.

There's definitely there's hashtags.

Make turtle friends.

It's so true, and I think that's, you know, that is really how ultimately I ended up where I am. It's just connections and meeting people with similar interests.

Make turtle friends. There's turtle clubs. Are you kidding?

For sure?

Every city has a turtle and tortoise club.

I should join one. Why am I not in a tortoise club?

I don't know. You gotta hang with those nerds. I looked at the local I looked up the local turtle and Tortoise club when I was looking for a good colonialogist. Oh my god, So turtle people are out there and they're just in a burrow in a shell. You just got to get to know us side, don't Leah Shavaz I found your address through Patreon, and I looked up what's local to you? And I found the Bay Area Amphibian and Reptile Society, which is having a meeting on

So when I was monitoring nests in North Florida, they would hatch at another shell and you let them go and they would just they would just start digging a burrow, oh yeah, or eating, like the second they come out, they're just like they're off and they're just living their life. So yeah, they're not hanging out with mom, they're not hanging out with each other. They're just they're eating and then they're trying to find a place to hide.

God, if only all babies were like that.

You know, right, then I would have kids, you know, just.

Poop out a dozen of them and you're likely good life. It's yeah, donate each other, Jonathan cus. Have turtles been on Earth longer than humans? That answer is.

Hell, yeah, yeah, much longer.

Okay, So turtles proto turtles evolved two hundred and sixty million years ago and humans scientists say between three hundred thousand and one hundred and ninety five thousand years ago. It's being debated. Regardless, turtles win and we suck. Austin H wants to know how long does the average turtle live and what are the most common causes of morbidity?

Oh well, okay, So tortoises will on average live probably about eighty two one hundred and fifty years, depending on the species, gopher tortoises, it's like kind of average at sixty. But and the the one, the oldest one that we know of is in captivity and he's like ninety six. We don't really know how old go for tortoises truly get, but yeah, probably between sixty and one hundred. The second question was they die of what boredom? Yeah?

What are they dying of? I mean cars?

Yeah, mostly cars. So yeah, cars are a big or a really big problem, a really big problem for all turtles and tortoises.

So what do you do when you see a turtle in the road? Have you risked life and limb to get.

A turtle out of the road. I don't ever recommend in your life, but you can help them cross, so just make sure it's safe for you to do so. I do help them cross all the time, but I wouldn't. I would not lunge in front of a car, to be honest, I do, like my life. It's so common in Florida to see them crossing all year round. I

Where are snapping turtles such?

Yeah, they're just angry.

Like maybe something in their disposition just evolved to be like listen, I'm real bitchy, I'm real defensive those of us with these beaks.

I can use it.

Yeah, I'm gonna use it.

Yeah I would if I had that, I.

Probably would to No one fucks with someone with a beak like that. True, and so you can move them. But cars are a big one. Yes, okay, all right, So Morgan's Sweet wants to know, other than limit the use of off road vehicles, what are some of the ways that we can help with tortoise conservation while still enjoying our public lands.

Well, a lot of it is supporting legislature, oh voting.

Kelly Brockington notes that Cuff and Link from Rocky, which is now a Creed franchise, are She thinks red stripe racers. How long can these guys live? Because apparently the same turtles that were in the original Rocky in seventy seven were in Creed in twenty seven and twenty seventeen. What I don't know there were two turtles that were in Rocky.

Well, I'm thinking I think she's maybe thinking read or sliders.

Ready or slide? Oh, red stripe racers.

That's so close.

I thought that was a different species. So so yeah, these same turtles were in two franchises, so I guess they can live for a while.

Miss. Yeah, they're very old.

I wonder if they're the most famous turtles.

I don't know. That's a I would love to know.

Yeah, well, I'll look into it.

Okay, these are the exotic animals I was telling you about. Is my friend's coffin link.

So these turtles terrapins, if you will, I know, are alive and forty four years old. They appear to be aging very nicely, or they've just had impeccable work done. JCW says, why are there two distinct lineages of turtles, the snake necks and the non snake neck turtles?

Oh, I think he's thinking the side next. So there's two lineages. There is the cryptodeira, which is the hidden necks. So those are the turtles and tortoises that can pull their neck ins out of their shell. And then there's the side necks. And that's plural dera. I hope I'm saying that's right. And they just they can instead of pulling their neck inside there the side neck, so they just kind of like turn their head to the side.

Oh so they just put it under a shelf.

Yes, that's exactly it.

Okay, I didn't know that they tuck.

Yeah, they tuck. Yeah. As far as like evolving, I'm not sure. I'm not sure why.

Side next side note. So I looked into this and apparently there's still a lot of mystery about the side neck turtles. But some research came out just this past summer that may link the drift of continence to their distribution and evolution and may have led to sea turtles. I mean, flipper feet, we got shovel hands, retractable heads,

Oh my gosh, Ali, this happens all the time.

Oh no, what's an easy way to tell the difference? And should we just leave them alone? They probably know what they're doing, unless it's crossing the street. In that case, I'll definitely help a brother out. But Ray Kasha, Okay, this is a depressing question, but we should answer it.

Yeah, this is a question we should talk about. It's a good question.

Yeah.

So this happens with gopher tortoises all the time. And I can probably imagine tortoises here, desert tortoises. But yeah, people confuse them the gopher tortoises. I'm sorry. They will sometimes live on the beach. They have like they live in the dunes, they have burrows there, and so sometimes they'll be taking a walk down the beach and people confuse them for sea turtles. Oh, and they'll try they'll think that it needs saving, and they'll put it in

Ps. That's the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission or the Department of Natural Resources. Now, if you're staring down the barrel of a turtle, how do you tell if it's a curtle or a tortoise?

So if you're looking at the limbs, that's probably the best way to tell. So tortoises have these like stout, muscular limbs. They don't have webbed feet, Okay, so they're kind of just more like built for digging. Turtles you'll see like there, their limbs have like webbed feet and they can swim.

So one's stumpy, one's webby. Yeah, so little elephant legs versus kind of webby, yeah, webby duck leg libs. Yeah, exactly. I'm a scientist. Let's see. Raquel Nuno wanted us to know, can they come out of their shell?

H see, yeah, these questions are so common. Yeah that's okay, No, yeah, no, they can't. Their whole everything's in that shell. They're attached to their shell. Their spine is attached to the shell, their ribs are attached to the shell.

So that question was from planetary scientists and selenologist Raquel Nuno, who taught us all about the moon and this is another wonderful reminder that even the smartest scientists keep asking questions. And Amanda says she gets that questions so much because of cartoons. And I just did a Google image search for a cartoon turtle leaving shell. So many little nude turtles. But the reality of a turtle leaving its shell would be like us just taking out our spines and hanging

Oh?

Is going to be controversial?

Yeah, this is like, this is a question I don't even want to get last night.

Enemies will be made, alliances will be foraged.

Will oh my gosh. I And the truth is I really don't have a favorite. I feel like my favorite is like the last one that I've seen. I feel like every time I see one, I'm just like, you're my favorite, and then I'll see the next one. Grumpy Grumpy Gertrude is definitely, without doubt like my number one.

Okay, I love that. Right now, somewhere across the country, there is a tortoise named Gertrude who's beloved. Sarah Crocker wants to know sexually mature at what age?

Oh, this is a good question. So this also depends on species and location. So in South Florida, gopher tortoises will mature as soon as like seven because they're not having to hibernie. They're not having to you know, stow away for the winter, so they're eating all around. They're growing a lot faster and am maturing by age seven. In the northern part of the range, like Alabama, they can take like twenty years to reach sexual maturity. So a lot of it is just dependent on location.

God, that's like sharks. So much puberty, Yes, decades.

Oh my gosh, it's true.

A slight, slight, hairy mustache and bad skin and uncontrollable bonus for decades. Them and sharks, they're like the sucks man. Christopher Enberg wants to know would you consider the tortoise to be the introvert of the animal kingdom?

I don't think so, really, I mean maybe, but working with gopher tortoises, I really thought differently about it. I know that they have these really highly social, high social structures, and I don't know if I believe that anymore.

Okay, I think that's smart. I think that's good to know. They're like, no, I just don't want to talk to you. Maybe, Yeah, talked out their turtles though, Jennifer booze. Can they really breathe out of their butts? If so, please give all the details.

Oh wow, so this is not something that's usually brought up with tortoises. But yeah, some aquatic turtles can have oxygen exchange through their butts. So if we want to call that breathing, yeah, I guess that's I guess that's the case. But it's not happening like breathing through your mouth. It's just it's just a oxygen exchange through tissues.

Does that help them if they're diving or if they're in the mud or something? Yeah, okay, just stick your butt up.

Yeah, okay, it's not a snorkel. It's not a snorkle.

Butt snorkel. Rich Gross says, A long time ago, I was an affair where they had a giant turtle and allowed people to write it. Oh, how much were they hurting the turtle?

Yeah it's not good, okay.

Teagan wall I saved the Patreon question that was perhaps the most important for last this is doctor Tiaganwall says, I've had my turtle, Yurdle for almost twenty five years. I know, I've had this turtle for twenty five years. Does she love me? Can she love me?

Oh?

That's amazing?

Okay, So the truth is that is that the whole question? This whole question, My gosh, I love it, you know, okay, uh teag in. Yes, I I would like to believe that my tortoise loves me. I don't know if he does. I know that he loves to eat, and so when I come out with food, he loves me.

I think they love you. I mean, if they can have buddies.

I do, And I do think that my tortoise recognize as individuals. He knows me, and he knows my mom because we're the ones that feed him, and so he does come to us. He's not gonna like be quite as you know, active, like or like wanting to go towards a stranger.

So yeah, they know who you are.

Yeah, I think he does, of course.

Okay, shoot, okay, one more Patreon question. He Brown wants to know how does their longevity impact their perception of time and is that why they seem so chill all the time.

I don't know. It's something that we've never looked at. But that is a really interesting question.

I don't know. If I knew that I didn't have to hurry up so much and that I could have children at one hundred and fifty years.

Old, this would be so good for me. I'm such a late bloomer that.

I mean, there's like you wouldn't you could take your time on everything?

Yeah? You kidding? I would. I'm not. Yeah, I mean I have.

But you're doing stuff. You're getting it, you're getting degrees, you're saving gopher tortoises.

I'm just doing it a little bit later. But I'm happy with it. I'm happy.

I mean, it seems like you've fallen into exactly where you want to be.

Yes, you know, I've never been happier with my career choice.

She loves turtles so much she can't even bear to shit talk them. This this is to studentological loyalty. What is the worst thing about your job, though, or about turtles? Do you have any shit you want to talk about turtles?

Yeah? Well no, okay, we can't go there ally, But what about your job? I as far as my job, I think that we're in a time right now where there's so much urban development and habitat loss. It's really hard to see all of the habitat loss. There's been a couple of times where we've found tortoises at our field sites that have been hit by cars, and so I think those are probably my worst days. God, I bet yeah.

Oh, and do you have burials for them? If I may ask, what do you do when you see a dead tortoise?

I actually collect them to what I'm doing right now is looking for what's called the it's called a gopher tortoise shell moth. Okay, so these moths will feed specifically on I'm dead, go over tortoise shells.

Oh my god, Yeah, I find your niche exactly bloom your planet, man.

So yeah, I'm basically taking I do like take the carcass and I use the shell to put out in my field site and kind of just sit and wait for moths to appear. But it hasn't happened yet.

Do tortoises more and other tortoises do they have bigs? Tiny brains?

Pretty, they're pretty small. They have very small brains. I don't I don't know there hasn't been any anything recorded where where tortoises are morning, so I'm not really sure, but I do wonder. I mean, it does make me wonder because they do have the structure, these social structures, and so I do wonder, like, who is missing you? Who's like trying to go to your burrow now and you're not coming back?

I know, I wonder if they ever try to scoot them into their burrow like a mausoleum. I don't know, you know what I mean, I've oh, final resting spot, turtle death. Who I'm gutted. What is your favorite thing about turtles or your job?

Oh? My favorite thing about my job is the people that I've met, even just like being on social media and just kind of connecting with people that have similar interests even if they're not on the same field, has been so much fun. I think that's definitely like my favorite part.

Yeah, turtle twitter, turtle twitter, get into it. Yes, I feel like if you if turtles give you butterflies, you've got to get up and find your people. You've got to find your turtle people.

Yeah, And I think, I mean, it took me so long to get to this point, to really be like, oh wow, this is where I'm supposed to be.

But it's about turtles, so it's supposed to take you forever exactly. You're not studying hairs, you know what I mean?

It's so true.

Do you hate the tortoise and the hair? Are you like lay off the turtles? Yeah? I mean, even though the tortoise ends up being the protagonist.

When I mean, I don't really hate it. It's fine, it's just a bable. I did get a video once of a it was on a camera trap of a contail rabbit that was living with tortoise in the burrow. And I have so many videos of him just like chilling and hanging out. And there was like one where he came over and the bunny kind of like got up into like the torus's face just to like sniff it. It was so cute.

Were they friends?

I don't think the tortos gave two shits about the rabbit.

How long did they kick it together?

He was he was hanging out for like probably two or three weeks.

Oh my god, Oh my god. Has that gone viral on the dodo yet or something like?

I actould like post it? I mean I think I posted it on Instagram.

But it's like the best wrap beef buried ever, like actually burrowed. I very highly recommend following Amanda on Instagram and or Twitter. You got videos of tortoises, field work photos, and also follow her hashtag shit bugs for updates on the dung gobbling burrow mates she's studying, as well as video. It is about grumpy Gertrude, tortoises and hairs just kicking it and where can people find you?

I'm on Instagram as biophilia Amanda Twitter.

Nice consistent handles, yes, dope, man make things so easy. Get try to get the same handles man, hoof. You gotta get in early, even if you got to put an underscore.

Oh my god, I changed mind so many times too, but I'm sort like this is this is it?

Well? Thank you for all of the work that you do protecting the turtles.

Gosh, I love it. Thank you for having.

Me so ask fast brained people's slow bodied questions because they didn't know the answers at one point, and also they love answering them. I promise they do. The links are in the show notes and see ali Ward dot com slash ologies for more links. Patreon dot com. Slash Ologies is where you can go to support the show and submit questions for the upcoming episodes. Ologiesmerch dot com has shirts and hats and tots and other merch. Thank