Oh hey, it's that friend whose calls it. You always pick up because if they are actually wanting to speak instead of text with their phone, it must be either really good or really bad news, Ali Ward, and that one is very true. Back with another episode of this show called Ologies. Okay, I'm going to try and make this intro speedy as I can. We are a race to get to space junk. This episode so good. Thank you to everyone at Patreon. Did you know what cost
a dollar a month to join? That's it? And then you can submit questionstologists patreon dot com slash ologies, and then thank you everyone also who rates, who subscribes, who leaves reviews. I read the hell out of all of your reviews, and then I am a laser pointer at one each week, such as dear Westler, who wrote, I'll be honest, I didn't like podcasts okay, but Ologies has had me hooked since day one, and then Wesler called me an informed closet goblin, and I thank them for that.
If you left a review this week or ever, I have read it and I have appreciated it. Okay, Onward. Space archaeology. Space is a word that's been around since
the thirteen hundreds. It comes from the Latin spaceum, which means room or area, and by the mid seventeen hundreds it meant the cosmic expanse, the stellar landscape, the crushing enormity of nothingness, which is filled with everything, including all of our secrets and maybe some broken glass and someone's car keys, which comes from Greek's archaeologia, the study of ancient things, which TBD to be discussed. Okay, so patron Kevin Biemer posted this on the patreon dot com slash
ologies community board. They said, I'd like to nominate three related but distinctologies. Astro archaeology, the study of how people in the past understood and used astronomy. Remote sensing archaeology the use of satellites and other remote sensing techniques to help with archaeology stuff on Earth and space. Archaeology the study of human artifacts in space. Kevin Biemer space archaeology. We're doing it. A lot of folks on Twitter also
pointing me toward this particular ologist. Her Twitter handle is doctor space Junk I say no more, and she got her PhD in archaeology with a specialty in stone and glass tool used post colonization and has worked for years in Indigenous heritage management. Is a member of the Australian Institute of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Studies. Is the president of the Anthropological Society of South Australia. She's a member of the Advisory Council of the Space Industry Association
of Australia. She's an associate professor at Flinders University in Australia. Is recognized as a world expert in orbital debris and launch sites. She's also a TED speaker. She writes the Space Age Archaeology Blog. Is the vice chair of the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronauts ADELAIDE chapter, and is a founding member of the nonprofit organization Archaeology, Science and Heritage Council for All Moonkind Incorporated, which helps protect cultural
archaeology sites in space. Oh and on top of all of this, she somehow found time to author the book Doctor Space Junk Versus the Universe, Archaeology and the Future. So we got on the whole when it was afternoon
in la and the future in Australia. And every so often you might hear the delicate tinkling of a spoon against her mid morning tea, So strap in helmets on for a chat that covers everything from Sputnik to sports cars, cosmic litter, flaming garbage machines raining down on fields, alien debris collision, potential radioactive rubbish clean up possibilities, the cutest space garbage burials in the void, and how does one
do archaeology without sitting on a rocket? To get to work with doctor space junk space archaeologist, doctor Alice Gorman.
Quite side five three two one. Oh. So I'm Alice Gorman and I'm she her.
Okay, cool, love God, we have a love God. Do you think that you may have been one of the first space archaeologists? Was this a thing before?
I think I probably was one of the first ones. I wasn't the first one, and I was not the only one back then, and I'm not the only one now. But when I think about it, there was something going on in the year two thousand, so I sort of round about their. My colleague Beffalora O'Leary, who's from New Mexico State University, started thinking about cultural heritage on the Moon, and bizarrely, there was actually a few people in Australia
who were thinking about space archaeology as well. You wouldn't think Australia would be a big space archaeology hub, but I had a couple of colleagues who were thinking about the Moon and Mars and also the kind of much
broader kind of zeno archaeological astrobiological thing as well. But around the year two thousand, it kind of all started to come together, like we all met each other and we started running conference sessions together, and we started sort of developing the ideas and the principles, and more importantly, I guess we started trying to get a bit of credibility with the broader archaeological community. We all kind of
focused on different things. So I started with space junk and that's continued to be one of my major research interests, and of sessions others were working on the Moon or Mars or terrestrial space sites, rocket launch sites, that kind of thing. So I guess this little group of us kind of just started putting stuff out there, trying to build a profile for the idea that this very recent staff actually had things to tell us about how we operate in the world and might have heritage value. And
I think sort of twenty years on. I think we've achieved that.
Yeah, it kind of makes me wonder how old does something have to be for it to be archaeological. Did we have to wait until we had gotten enough junk up there and it was old enough. Does it have to be thirty years ten years? Can something be archaeological if it's only ten minutes old?
My answer to that is absolutely it can be. Oh. So there's a couple of interesting things going on with this idea. I mean, one is when does the past actually start? And Isaac Asimov actually wrote a very interesting short story about this called The Dead Past. A time machine had been invented, and there was an archaeologist who was dea spread to go back to ancient Carthage and
see what happened. And he kept applying for permission to use the chronoscope and kept getting turned back, and in the event, in the end he was so persistent that he found out why no archaeologist or historian was allowed to use the chronoscope to look into the past, And it is because the past could start a milli second ago, and such a machine is actually a powerful surveillance tool.
So it's an interesting story, but it makes the point that our definitions of the past are pretty arbitrary, and things that are a thousand years old aren't necessarily more They don't have more heritage value or more ability to inform us about human behavior than things that are ten minutes old. And archaeology really, at the end of the day, isn't about old things. It's about human inter with material things.
So that means you and I, sitting at our desks right now are creating an archaeological layer that somebody could come along and interpret once we got up and left the desk.
Hear that if your workplace is just a repository of Chaoss type up a museum placard, sling a velvet barrier in front of those moldy coffee cups and unopened bills, those artifacts must remain undisturbed and unjudged. And I have heard that a lot of archaeology deals with discarded items, or shall we say, just historical garbage. That garbage is just like chef's kiss when it comes to an archaeologist.
Is that true? Is that true for archaeology and space junk and the work that you were doing with indigenous cultures in Australia.
Well, you're right allie that your standard archaeological site is what's left behind. It's people's rubbish, it's structures and buildings that existed at the moment people left or died or moved to another location. So you're looking at what's left. But when we're looking at the very recent past, so I guess space archaeology fits into what we're calling the archaeology of the contemporary past, another kind of paradox. It's the past of ten minutes ago. Again, so this isn't
always stuff that people have abandoned or discarded. Often it's stuff that people are actually using or living in the International Space Station being a great example of that.
Just a side note for context. So the ISS, the International Space Station is a joint effort by several countries, with the top contributors being NASA, Russia's Space program, and the European Space Agency or the ESA, and the ISS launched into the void of Eternity in nineteen ninety eight and it's been taken a low hovering lap two hundred and forty eight miles above your face, just circling Earth every ninety minutes pretty much since the Clinton Lewinsky scandal
erupted and Titanic came out, So between three and ten people tend to be up there at any given time, just defying what our ancestors could ever even imagine was possible, just doing experiments, making music videos. Sometimes peel into a suction hose. What a blast. Also, the US had a different space station before, named Skylab, but in nineteen seventy nine, five years after the astronauts bounced and left it uninhabited, its orbit started to decay and it got sucked back
into our gravitational poll. And because it was so large and chunky and made of some pretty hardy metals, pieces as big as a small car crashed into an Australian sheep field, just scattering parts that were gathered and then put into a modest tourist museum.
So these objects and sides are still often active and people have relationships to them. So this does add another ethical dimension, I guess to doing this kind of archaeology. It also gives you huge advantages because you can ask people what was going on at a place. But you make a good point there is an intersection with indigenous archaeology here and this was my main career before I
became a space archaeologist. I was a heritage consultant working with Aboriginal communities in Australia, and for those communities, similarly, you don't say, oh, this is one hundred years old, so it has a different kind of value. A lot of the value comes because things are still very present and interwoven in everyday life. So it does give you a different kind of sensibility about stuff that is recent
and stuff that well definitions of rubbish as well. So something that is not being used or appears to have been abandoned when we're looking at the present those that's not necessarily the case.
So while archaeology means this study of ancient history, that's not always the case in practice. And the significance of an artifact might have everything to do with the cultural significance of its I guess it's impact, so to say, and how we interacted, whether it was something we accidentally left behind or deliberately abandoned. But what kind of objects are we talking? And how do you define space junk? I picture just like broken satellites and like a booster
that's just up there rusting. What is it exactly?
But this my answer to that, I guess relates to what we've just been talking about, because I'm kind of really uneasy with the term junk. Okay, there's all kinds of other words for things that are discarded or considered to be waste. You know, we havesh garbage, all of these kinds of words. There is actually a definition of space junk, a technical definition, and it says, a piece of space junk is an object that does not now or in the foreseeable future have a use.
Okay, let's repeat that because it's important.
A piece of space junk is an object that does not now or in the foreseeable future have a use. Ah. So that's the kind of engineering definition I guess. So the kinds of things people routinely think of as junk are all of the old and abandoned satellites and rocket bodies and fragments of those objects that are floating around
in Earth orbit. And you could also technically say that places like the Apollo landing sites on the Moon are junk because they have been abandoned or discarded by some definitions. But the way I look at it, our definition of junk is a very cultural thing. So something that one person abandons or discards may actually have very high value for somebody who is from a different place or class, or has a different understanding of material objects.
Hey, one person's trash is another's treasure. And this applies to everything from old barbecues to romantic partners. And that's beautiful.
And we do have examples of spacecraft which ceased to be used but was still capable of being used, so they did actually have a use in the foreseeable future. And some very clever people have gone out and reactivated old spacecraft, old satellites to repurpose them for I know. Is that amazing?
Yeah, that's great. That's like when you watch a program and Discovery where it's like someone in the Rust Belt putting together an old Chevy and getting it to run again some serious technological makeover. How do they do that? Are they able to do it from Earth and just get some codes and start tippy tapping?
Yes, well, a lot of the time it is as simple as that. They just need to get the codes. But the really interesting thing is those codes are often lost. And this is the case with the UK satellite Prospero, which had its fortieth anniversary a few years back, and a group of students tried to re establish contact with it, but the codes had been lost in you know, like an office move or something.
Oh god, Oh it's like, so what they need last pass or just one of those books. It just is it's all lowercase password one, two, three, just drive on too, three fours? Do you ever work?
You know, it's such an interesting thing because we kind of have this idea of the space age as something that's very orderly and where nothing goes wrong, where technology is perfect. And you know, it's the same kind of thing. You clear up the filing cabinet in your office and you throw out the one file that had the things that you needed in it, and suddenly there's a spacecraft
a drift that nobody can use again. So I think around this idea of junk it's really interesting things that are considered junk mate still have social uses, for example. So an example I often think of when it comes to that is a rather famous red sports car that was launched into space in twenty eighteen by a rather famous space person.
Well, I think it looks so ridiculous and impossible, and you can tell it's real because it looks so fake. Honestly, we'd have way better cegif we'll speak yes.
And it was quite controversial when it was launched because people said, why couldn't it have been a proper scientific experiment. We could have got something out of it, And other people said, you know, this is amazing. It's a visionary it's whimsical and quirky, and you know, I love a bit of whimsy and quirk with the best of them. But it was a red sports car, and we know what red sports cars symbolize? Or should I spell it out early a week?
Am I missing something? Are we talking about a different kind of space junk? I'm thinking it's just like a very much midlife crisis in a phallic symbol, but very much.
It's also wealth and power, representing membership of an elite organization. And you know, there's probably lots of other meanings that you could find. But the point about that red sports car it didn't do anything. It didn't collect data, it wasn't part of any experiment. But it's funk was social. Its function was to be a symbol. So for all of the people who said, oh, it's just another piece of space junk clogging up the orbital paths of the
Solar System, even though I personally disliked the symbolism. It makes a wonderful argument that the function of a spacecraft can be social, and if that's the case, then it isn't actually junk even if it's not working.
Okay, just some quick trivia on this. I looked it up and Elon didn't get the idea of launching his roadster into space while he was like on a Cradam bender in a hat up. Apparently, SpaceX announced that they needed a boilerplate or a dummy payload for the Felcon Heavy test launch, and they were looking for the silliest
ideas possible. One Twitter user, someone by the name of Evelyn Janity, a twenty something Texan self described as a Latina writer and poet who's also a trained dental technician but a Cosmos enthusiast and aspiring SpaceX employee, suggested launching musks swinky commute vehicle into orbit. Musk faved it, and the internet to vote. The rest is history that will
last roughly a billion years. So whether the car is a whimsical nod to human potential or an egomaniacal automotive version of gas station dick pills, just this object existing has a function because we're talking about it and we're thinking about it, which might be its greatest use marketing tool.
And that's a very archaeological sort of way to look at things. I think something that we do as archaeologists is to look at everyday objects, sometimes really special objects, but often it's just everyday objects and look at them beyond their strict function to see what roles they perform in creating social cohesion, or supporting certain power structures or undermining certain power structures. So an artifactor on object is
never just that. There's always more going on, because that's how humans work.
Yeah, there's context behind every artifact in every museum, and that artifact, when it's interpreted with context, has so much more social and emotional value for sure. And now when it comes to a timeline here, we haven't been catapulting things into orbit for our entire existence on Earth. So what do you think was the first piece of space debris that was up there? When did we start flinging stuff?
There's a rather wonderful story in that. I think the early nineteen fifties, a nuclear explosion in our underground cavity which had what is often called a manhole cover on the top actually caused that manhole cover to jet off the Earth and get into Earth orbit. So this was in the early fifties, and many people say this is the first thing that actually made it into space.
Probably I'm freaking out about that. That's crazy to think that there's a manhole cover somewhere up there that's the first piece of space junk.
Okay, there does seem to be some evidence that this story isn't apocryphal and may actually have happened. And of course we've got a difference here between things that can get high, like they get super high that's doing it, is super dup bright and kind of be in space, but they don't stay in space. They just come straight back down. So really, if we're looking at the first objects that got into Earth orbit, we have butt Neck one in nineteen fifty seven, And I often think about this.
So in nineteen fifty seven, the first time that a human object that people can watch for and listen to, but Nick one had a little beat beat beat radio signal that became absolutely iconic. How extraordinary that must have been to think that there was a human object up there with the stars above your head, and of course, then you know later that year there's Sputnik two, which had poor little Laika the dog on board.
Why poor little Leicho, what happened? Okay? So, Leika was a Russian dog plucked from the streets and quite literally thrust into fame as the first living creature to orbit Earth.
She was launched in the thirteen foot tall Sputnik two the month after Sputnik one went up, and her name means the barker, and she only survived a few hours because the temperature controls failed, but her body continued to orbit the planet two thousand, five hundred and seventy times over the course of five months before a cremation caused by incineration re entering the atmosphere. Truly a rags to riches to ash's tail, but it got people very fired up about travels unbound by gravity.
Then you had the first US spacecraft, So by nineteen fifty eight, it's not an extraordinary thing anymore. You know, there's two or three up there at any one time, and then suddenly it's like boom. This whole thing takes off every year, more and more and more, until we get to the point here in twenty twenty where there is going to be a predicted thirty thousand Starlink satellites manufactured by SpaceX in Earth orbit in the next ten years.
At the present time, there are around about two thousand functioning satellites, maybe around four thousand not functioning whole satellites, and over thirty five thousand bits of junk that are greater than ten centimeters. So going from nineteen fifty seven, when there's just that one little beat beat beep up in the sky to twenty twenty, when we'll be looking at the night sky changing so radically that in fact the easiest things to see will be human manufactured objects.
They will be spacecraft and satellites, and this will be part of people's everyday experience of going out at night. So that's an extraordinary change.
Yeah, okay, I'm going to repeat those figures just to wrap our brains around them. So two to three thousand working satellites are up there now, plus four thousand defunct old ones, and there are thirty five thousand bits of space junk bigger than about the palm of your hand, and millions of smaller, shall we say, micro junk, And then soon thirty thousand new satellites will join five times
the number that are up there now. But SpaceX can launch something like this because as a private Cosmos courier service, they have made launches much more affordable for themselves. So why not go into the satellite business itself instead of just being a four higher satellite delivery business for other companies, is their reasoning, and astronomer doctor Samantha Lawler wrote via the website The Conversation quote, We're about to undergo a
dramatic transition and our experience of satellites. No longer will you escape your city for a camping trip and see the stars unobstructed. You'll have to look through a grid of crawling, bright satellites. No matter how remote your location. Starlinks are lower in orbit and brighter than ninety nine percent of other satellites out there, she writes. Other folks justify their presence saying that they're mostly just visible at
dawn or dusk. And my good friend Casey Hanmer is in the rocket science business, and he writes a great space blog and said quote, Starlink's world spanning internet will bring high quality internet access to every corner of the globe. In highlighting starlink's enormous power for bringing about positive change. He writes, The Internet is able to help people hold leaders to account, communicate with people in other places, share ideas,
invent new things, and unify the human race. The history of modernity is one of increased capacity for human data sharing, first through speeches and epic poetry, then writing, which enables the dead to speak to the living, data storage, and asynchronous communication. He continues by likening this development to the printing press. So naturally, these unnatural objects, possibly up to forty two thousand of them, have cheerleaders and have detractors.
And I keep thinking of the Billy bragg lyric I saw too shooting stars tonight. I wished on them, but they were only satellites. So maybe we need to just start wishing on starlinks and hoping for the best. So does technology bleeding out toward the edges of our unknown spaces? Does that rate of advancement rely on these private space tech companies. Well, there's rights law, which bases the exponential progress of technology on the number of iterations of something produced.
But what about Moore's law observed in the early computing days.
Ma's law is the idea that I I think every two years computing power doubles, so we're still seeing that hold, and obviously spacecraft rely very much on computing power to do their jobs. I think one of the interesting things that is going on here is there's a constant tension between the services that can be delivered on the ground using terrestrial infrastructure and the services that can be delivered by satellite, and things like navigation, telecommunications, various other things
aren't always best done by satellite. Now.
The terrestrial where we get our phones to light up with essentially portable omniscions is mostly via phone circuits, fiber optic systems, cell towers, and broadband cables. So those long ass wires have to go over the rivers, through the woods, across the oceans, but they stay on Earth as opposed to circling above.
So yes, when we're looking at the movement of telecommunications into Earth orbit, as we're seeing with the proposed Starlink satellites and other massive, massive constellations that have been proposed for the future, that's not a necessity. We don't have to run our telecommunications like that. These are technological and political choices, I guess, So that as an archaeologist. This
is the sort of thing that's interesting to me. What kind of you know, social background leads to decisions being made which mean we end up being very space reliant and vulnerable. Massive soular flare, for example, could take out our navigation, communication and Earth observation satellites, take them offline, which happens from time to time, and so then what do we do we don't have backups on Earth? What do we do if we're over aligned on having space
delivered Internet. So there's yeah, a lot of repercussions.
That's maybe looking forward in the future, but as they exist. Now, do you have any space artifacts up there that are close to your heart or that particularly vACC you.
There are so many amazing artifacts in Earth orbit, and so many that deserve to have their stories told more widely and to be appreciated by a much wider range of people. When people say space junk, I do have some that I feel very fond of. One of my all time favorites is Vanguard one, which was the second US satellite and is now the oldest human object in
Earth orbit. So I think that's pretty special. Yeah, it's kind of beautiful too, So it's a polished silk, a sphere with six and tenor sticking out, and it's got a very sort of retro vintage feel and it's kind of friendly and warm, and I think of it. You know, it's been out there all this time. It's seen everything happen. It's seen you know, once upon a time it only had a few other neighbors. Now it's part of Orbit is starting to look busier and busier with all these
new kids on the blog. I just think, you know what it's seen during its time in space. So I'm very fond of that satellite.
I mean, how can you not be. The thing is a three pound, shiny little sphere that can fit in one hand, and one Russian politician nicknamed it the greepefruit because it's the size of a greekfruit, I guess, but a really big greeenfruit, more like a pamello, which is like a big greepefruit. So note I had to google it, and googling, I found out that grapefruits are an invention, and there are a cross between the pamelo and the
sweet orange. World didn't even know about them until seventeen fifty when they were found being cultivated on a Caribbean island and then deemed the forbidden fruit, because there's really nothing tastier or sexier than I guess a graaffruit. So when America launched Vanguard one in nineteen fifty eight, the year after Smutnik went up, maybe the Russian leader called
it a grapefruit, but meant to pommelo. I mean, for a size comparison, it would have been more accurate, but I guess weirder to call it the baby's head.
Another of my favorites is an amateur satellite launched by a group of Australian students called Estralla Soska five. It was launched in nineteen seventy, but they started to design it and build it in the mid nineteen sixties, and it's part of a whole sequence of amateur satellites that started in the early nineteen sixties and is going today.
And I love that story. You know, we think of space as being about the incredibly wealthy nations, the space bearing nations, with all of their technology and all of their brilliant scientists. I love that there's a whole tradition of satellites. There's probably I don't know fifty or sixty of these amateur satellites in orbit. These are just people saying we want to get involved in space, or a lot of small nations actually use this amateur program to
launch their first satellites as well. So I love this. This is just about regular people getting involved in space, and it's such an important tradition to acknowledge and to talk about. I think if I think about some of the spacecraft technically called junk that I've become obsessed with recently, I do tend to move through different phases of obsession about these thing. There's a series of experimental satellites for testing radar that were launched throughout the sixties, and two
of them I love. They're called dough Decapole one and Dodecapol two.
Okay, these puppies were about the size of an uncomplicated beach ball and just adorable.
And their kind of nickname is Porcupine one and two because they were like van Godewa. They were a little polished silver sphere and they had twelve antennas, and these antennas were twelve feet long each, so they really do look they're extraordinary. So if you can just imagine that a little silver ball with these incredibly long legs sticking out of it, and to me they're beautiful. And they're still up there in orbit right now, so they're space
Jump two. But they tell a story of spacecraft design, those experimental projects in the early decades of the space age, when people are just testing equipment and systems and how things work.
I guess how much is flatsam, how much is jetsam, how much is accidentally like whoops, there goes a caprice don bottle, you know, And how much is like we gotta just we're gotta cut this thing list.
There's certainly a lot of accidents that happen in space. Okay, so you know, something gets up there, it just doesn't work, just doesn't work, nobody can turn it on. Something gets up there and one of its solar panels fails to roll so it doesn't have the energy it was supposed to have and it can't operate fully. Something gets up there and just come on explodes. Mm hmmm. So there's all kinds of reasons where things don't work. And interestingly, space insurance is a huge industry.
Is it really.
Industry?
What are the deductibles? Like can you imagine they're like full coverage. You're like, yes, please, I can't even imagine what a fender vender on like a falcon is. Oh god, what a dragon mard.
We think of space as being about the rockets and the satellites, but in fact there's this whole web of connected industries as well, which I think are interesting. Usually a satellite will be launched with an idea of what its mission life is, and everything will be planned around that, and it might get to that time and everything's going great, so they extend the mission life. The satellite keeps working.
It's still got teams that people devoted to keeping it in its orbit, to getting the data to you know, sending updates to its codes, all of that stuff. Sometimes it gets to the end of its mission life and there's no compelling reason to keep it going, so they just stop using it, even though it might have fuel and battery and actually be physically capable of functioning well. But to keep a satellite working in orbit requires teams
of people, and those resources are sometimes needed elsewhere. So there can be all kinds of reasons why a satellite just sort of stops being used, and whether you then say it's junk if technically it could be reused or how you classify it. In fact, it would be really interesting. As far as I know, nobody's ever made a list of satellites which have the capability of being reused.
Well, there you go. You just inspired someone.
I hope, so, I hope. So Usually when a satellite gets reused it's biinamateur group. But you know, there are plenty of people with those skills out there, and putting an old satellite to use collecting new scientific data, you know, would be an amazing thing to do. Well.
That leads me to a question. It keeps nagging at me. I imagine that as an archaeologist, you do a lot of site work, you collect a lot of data, you go back, you analyze it, your crunch numbers. Right, what do you do if the objects you need to study are tens of thousands of miles away? How do you study it?
It's true, archaeology is such a physical discipline. You know, we're camping in remote locations. Well they're not always remote, sometimes they're in the middle of cities. But we're out there walking the land. We're excavating things, getting covered in dirt, doing physical labor. We're walking through gorges and across beaches and mountains, and really we're present in these places. And part of the joy of archaeology is it's physicality. I guess. So you're right. It's a bit of a paradox. I
can't go to space. I can't see the objects that I'm studying. I have to rely on proxies. I have to rely on catalogs and data and scientific papers and visualizations and things like that. So it is a bit different to normal archaeology. But I think I don't know. I spend a lot of time visualizing and imagining the spacecraft that I'm looking at, Like I will take a dry paragraph from some scientific paper and in my mind
spin it into a vision of a particular spacecraft. One example of this is at one point I was doing a lot of work on all of the Russian landing craft on Venus.
Okay, this was in the nineteen sixties, and Venera means Venus and Russian. And it wasn't until right now that I learned that venereal comes from Venus, the Roman goddess of love. They didn't name it a venereal probe and that's good.
Which everybody said, Oh, you know, surface conditions on Venus are so harsh that they're just melted puddles of metal. And I thought, well, we don't know that. So I started trawling through all the scientific papers about surface conditions on Venus and what the spacecraft were made out of. And we do have pictures of them before they left Earth, and we also have artists visualizations of them the ven or Or Landers when they got to the surface of Venus.
But you'd find little things in the papers that suddenly made you realize that those pictures were very incomplete. So there was one US surface mission to Venus called Pioneer Venus, and the landing craft had little windows made out of sapphires and diamonds. And this is just a little detail in the paper that describes its technology and exactly you're thinking sapphire and diamond eyes. That's beautiful, I think it is.
That's just an engineering detail. But for an archaeologist, it's that kind of stuff that helps me relate to them as physical objects. And then I'll hope convey to other people that these are just so much more than a complicated bit of measure on a planetary surface.
Oh. I also, I have so many questions from patrons. I tell them you were coming on the show. They launched a lot of questions that you know, so I'm just going to let them. I'm going to say them in their words. Okay, But before we get to your very good questions, let's toss some money toward a good cause chosen by Alice and this week it's going to Deadly Science, which provides STEM books and early reading material
to every remote school in Australia. And it was founded by STEM communicator Corey Tutt, himself a Kimilori man, who saw that some remote schools had just fifteen books in their whole school library. And so Deadly Science has now shipped over fourteen thousand books, five hundred telescopes and chemistry sets, plus other resources to over one hundred and twelve schools,
with more to comes. So Deadly Science wants to ensure all schools have access to our history of science by providing First Nations resources to connect back to our first scientists. There'll be a link to Deadly Science in the show notes in case you also want to throw some dollars their way. And our donation was made possible by the following sponsors of the show whoms I like. Okay, your questions starting with one that was orbiting a lot of
your brains. Okay. One of the most repeatable questions I got Rada Vicaria, Anna Thompson, Andrew g so Cosino, Jen's Girl, Alvarez, Mason Turner, Heather Densmore, Justin McCormick, Matt Dee, Sebastian Osterbrink, Angeliae McDonald all wanted to know, essentially, how often does it fall to Earth?
Ah, it's a very good question.
Okay.
So this is one of the other things about space junk. So once the satellite stops being used, it's all but can't be controlled or isn't controlled. So things that are low enough get affected by atmospheric drag. The atmosphere starts to lower their orbit and pull them back in. Oh dear. So the answer to that question is that every day bits of space junk get dragged back into the atmosphere
and burn up. They're not always large bits, and they're not always whole satellites, But I would say, I don't know, probably once a week there's a whole satellite or a large piece of space junk that re enters and you can actually go and find out there are sites which track these re entries.
Oh my gosh. Really, so it was like forecast bonked by space junk.
That is pretty much it. There's two levels of forecast. One is what's going to re enter the atmosphere, and the good news about this is stuff mostly completely burns up. The risks of being hit by a space junk are incredibly low, okay. And then there's what's looking like it will likely collide actually in Earth orbit. That's what's really concerning because those collisions on orbit create more space junk, which will collide with more space junk and more space
junk and all of that. But if people are really interested, they can go to celestetrak Astriograph, Heavens Above Sea Set and a number of other satellite catalogs that you can easily find on Google, and you will be able to get the updates on what's looking like it will re enter.
Oh great, of course, I look this up and all those tiny glowing dots sparkling like seed beads spilled over a rendering of Earth. It's a bit bargling to see, even color coded. So the sheer number of thousands of dead satellites up there is really apparent, just cruising like very expensive ghost ships in the night. And as I was staring at these animations though, there was this peculiar mode and I clicked on it and they were starlinks all in a line like a Marty Grand necklace and
circling the planet, just staggering to see. To expand on that a little bit, Several different patrons asked Gwen Kelly, who is a terrestrial archaeologist and first time question asker Pim Bonders with a great name. Also first time question asker Juliet Churka and Mallory I'll be first time question asker Meryl Stark, Kazia Wanuski and my buddy j R. Rollaff asked. Does space junk want to become bigger and bigger blobs? Or does space Junk's orbit decay and just
fall into the atmosphere? Jr asked is space drunk clearing itself more slowly than we're replacing it? Also? Why was Firefly canceled? He's got that question. Did you ever see Firefly? I guess.
I didn't ever see it, but I know it had a very devoted following, So I wish that need the answer.
To that JR. I gotcha, and it's means this. Joss Whedon's I Fi futuristic questern, which aired for just eleven episodes in twenty or two, had a terrible Friday night time slide, just unfortunate. Also, Fox aired all the episodes out of order, and then the series finale titled Objects in Space. Hahuh, I see why you asked now wasn't even supposed to be the finale at all, So rip Firefly.
There's a lot of stuff in there. One is that we are in fact putting more things into orbit, which create more junk than is being dragged out of the atmosphere. So that is one of the problems at the moment. I think at the beginning there was a question about whether bits of space junk tend to kind of coalesce
into blops. And while there are the really tiny, tiny fragments, so the size of space junk goes from the size of a house down to you know, microscopic submelli metal level, a little little time tiny particles, and there are millions and millions of these, and some of them, depending on their origin, kind of are in little clouds. But it's not really a blob but one of the big questions. So most of the outer planets in the Solar System
have ring systems. So we all know Saturn's beautiful rings, but in fact, Neptune has rings, Euranus has rings, Eurmus has rings. Yeah, I said it, and I'm not backing down from that either. So most of most of those planets actually have rings. And in the inner Solar System, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Earth do not have rings. But there was a paper
written in nineteen seventy. It's very famous paper. It's by Donald Kessler, after whom the Kessler syndrome is named, and Verton Corpele, and they tried to figure out if Earth could get its own ring system made out of space junk, which I actually think could be quite beautiful.
Alice says. The good slash bad news.
Is we don't have enough space junk to get a ring system that would form naturally. So apparently there's not enough mass, which means blobbiness and clumpiness isn't going to sort of, you know, we might not get any mini moons that are made out of space junk hall mushed up together like a Bretsher or something like that. So it's an interesting question about orbital dynamics to think about why that is, And maybe part of that is we know we have to clean space junk up. People often
think I'll be upset about this. They say, alas, how can people will get rid of these artifacts that you love? You know, say, well, if it's part of the sort of natural evolution of space industry, I would like them to keep the beautiful stuff which has a lot of cultural significance if it's a low But if it's a high risk, then heritage isn't enough to counteract that. But we will have to get rid of some of it, and for some of it, the best solution is to push it higher out of the way of the high
density orbits. And we actually have a graveyard orbit at the moment, which is out beyond the geostationary orbit, so which is where telecommunication satellites are. It's about thirty five thousand kilometers high above the Earth. Wow, it's quite a complicated task to get something that high. And then when these satellites get to the end of their life, ideally they have enough fuel left to boost them just a bit higher, about five hundred kilometers above into the graveyard orbit. Wow.
So we do kind of have a ring, a design structured ring in that graveyard orbit, but without it being controlled, the spacecraft tend to sort of drift out, missed away. There's not enough gravitational weight to hold them together. But maybe in the future we might think making some kind of structure out of all of this space junk into I don't know what you call it, engineered art, astro engineered art. That might be something we could do.
The biggest Burning Man installation in the universe, just well died space junk. Carolyn Butler has a very serious question. Wants to know are there five hundred billion single unmatched socks floating out there, and if not, any insight on where they might be.
If we're going to take the precedent or from Hithacker's Guide to the Galaxy and the biro pens that have gone missing over the years, all of those socks are not currently in a th orbit. They are on some other planet somewhere. There haven't been any sightings of socks, so I regret to say until that planet is discovered, we're just going to have to live with our sock situation.
So something is afoot on another planet perhaps Now, speaking of extraterrestrial matters Kate H. Jesse Dragon and Sadie Baker and Alyssa Ramirez RJ. Deutsche. They all had the same question in patron Samantha Healy's student Peters words, have you found unidentified space junk from somewhere that is not Earth, something that we don't know what it is, from somewhere we've never been a lot of patrons wanted to know, do we ever see any alien space junk? Like what about the ooh muhamoa Oh.
Yes, So I will probably not pronounce it correctly, but um ohmur was an extra solar object that just barreled into our Solar system at very high speed, did a bit of a sort of gravity bend around the side, and then took off again. And its inclination and speed indicated it had come from a very long distance away
somewhere in the galaxy. So there was some speculation by particularly by one astrophysicist, is the very first interstellar object to have been discovered in the Solar System, sort of like having a guest for dinner, RV lobe that this was an alien spacecraft or some kind of alien object. Now I can't say that it isn't. But scientific consensus is that it is not an alien object. And you know, we might revise our opinions about that if we get
to observe other similar objects. We don't know when they're going to come. The appearance of that object was a surprise. No one knew that it was on its way. But when we have a little bit more to compare with, it might be possible to to be clearer about that. Now there was something, oh, alien things in Earth orbit. There's actually a bit of a conspiracy theory, a bit
of a conspiracy theory about an object called the Black Knight. Ooh, and the Black Knight is supposed to have been in orbit around Earth for thirteen thousand years, so it was
not made by humans. And this pops up every now and then I get Black Knight conspiracy theorists emailing because they think, I mean, I try to be generous and respectful when I get these sorts of queries, but they often see space and archaeology combined and think that I will be somehow less scientific than other space scientists or astronomers that have approached. And I regret to say that
isn't the case. But I do get queries about this, and there is no evidence that anything other than objects manufactured by humans has ever been in Earth orbit.
When Listener and Kathy Flint on that note asked, is there any type of space junk, real or potential that scares you to your core? Oh?
Gosh, well, there's one piece of space junk that I and many others find very worrying. I don't know if it scares me to my core. But oh, actually there is one that scares me to my core. But I'll do the I'll do the There's a European Space Agency spacecraft called Envysat, which was Earth observation scientific satellite launched in nineteen ninety two, I think. And it's huge, the
size of two double decker buses. It's now a piece of space junk, and it's uncontrolled, and if anything hits it, it will create so much space junk that the effects are going to be really, really bad. Oh no, but we also haven't got any way of getting it out of orbit at the moment, so I find that quite scary. All we need is for something big enough to hit Envysat and create thousands, hundreds of thousands more bits of debris, and we have a pretty bad situation in Earth orbit.
So that's scary. But what really terrifies me if we're going to talk about visceral terror, is an experimental space station called Genesis one, or it could be Genesis two. There are two Genesis inflatable space stations empty currently in Earth orbit. They were made by Bigelow Aerospace and they're related to the technology of the inflatable module being tested on the International Space Station right now. So these space stations were sent up because nobody was ever intended to
live in them or you visit them. Even they were sent up with various kind of interesting or funny objects. One of them has Madagascar hissing cockroaches. Now we know that cockroaches are basically predicted to be able to survive a nuclear holocaust. Cockroaches are hardy, and cockroaches and don't tell me I'm wrong. Cockroaches are smart.
Oh, there absolutely.
It worries me that someone deliberately said cockroaches into space, and at some point that spacecraft might be deorbited or maybe someone will go inside and we will have found that our real problem isn't the space junk. Our real problem is space cockroaches who have involved and mutated and are coming to take us over. And I'm not even joking.
I wonder if they're out there nibbling on tartar greeds maybe And actually I.
Guess we sent food up for them.
What are you looking? Apple cores and just cheese rind a pizza crust just float around. Oh this actually dovestails perfectly into first time question. Asker Marie Honore asked how dangerous is space junk? Like is it radioactive or toxic? Monica author asked, is there any special decontamination process after things have crashed landed on Earth? Like can we get space junk down? And what do we use on it? Like purel?
That's a really great question, because in fact, I should say, if anybody is in the situation where a piece of space junk has survived falling out of allbit and has allownded near them, don't go and touch it. So the first thing is some of spacecraft fuels are quite toxic. Hydrozene is one of those. It's very commonly used. Fuel tanks are among them. More robust parts of your average satellite rocket or spacecraft. They're made out of stainless steel
or titanium aluminium alloys, so they're quite robust. But that fuel is toxic, so don't touch it. There's other spacecraft materials like beryllium, for example, which is a metal. People might remember the beryllium spheres from Galaxy Quest, so that is also toxic. Do not touch it. So if a piece of space junk lands near you, first of all, it doesn't it's not fined as keepers. It actually belongs to the launching state, so you can't take it and
sell it on eBay ha, don't touch it. Alert your nearest. I don't know government authority, space agency, if you have one environmental protection agency something like that. As for decontamination processes, I would say, don't undertake them yourself. I'm not sure what you would do. But not touching these objects is this will You'll hardly ever be in this situation because not that much actually survives down to the surface. But
the other interesting question is nuclear fuel. So there is kind of now a standard that nuclear fuel is only used for deep space missions, but there are quite a few satellites in Earth orbit that are powered by RTG's.
RTG you ask, I have the same question. That's a radioisotope thermoelectric generator or a nuclear powered battery. It's just full of that good, good juice.
They have plutonium, for example, so it's not the same as a nuclear reactor. We don't have any satellites powered by a nuclear reactor, but we do have nuclear fuel, if you see the difference. And in nineteen seventy eight, the year before Skyline re entered, there was a very terrifying and at the time I think largely hushed up incident where a Russian Cosmos spacecraft re entered the atmosphere.
It had nuclear fuel, so the Cosmos re entered, broke up and the nuclear fuel was scattered over a broad area in the Arctic Circle, over forests. There were indigenous communities who lived in these areas, and it was highly, highly toxic, and it took a massive international cleanup effort to try and recover all those bits of fuel. The good news is there are still spacecraft inner orbit that have nuclear fuel, but as far as I know, none of them are a massive risk. But it is just
worth keeping in mind. Another reason not to go near space junt. I mean, you could go and look up the predictions and work out if the predicted thing to reenterineer you is something which does not have nuclear fuel, so you can do that, but you couldn't guarantee its toxicity in terms of other products and materials that are used in spacecraft.
Right, are human remains ever shot into space?
Oh?
You bet they are, But usually they're already ashes, and they orbit and re enter the atmosphere and burn up with all the flamboyance and indulgence of a twice baked potato. Also, it should be noted that doctor Eugene Shoemaker, one of the founders of planetary science, is just NBD chillin' on the Moon. Some of his ashes were delivered there by NASA. Just the ultimate backstage pass. You got to know someone, though, And that space funeral question was asked by Felix and
casein Wally and on the topic of Wally. Aaron Onunsen, Michelle Neer and Felix asl have been harboring questions about it since two thousand and eight. A lot of people wanted to know how you felt about Wally the movie Wally, where there's essentially just like a shell of garbage around Earth. Any thoughts are we gonna let it get to that point?
Do you think what you see in the film Wally, and in fact, it's an incredibly evocative scene Little Wally, the garbage robot clinging to the rocket, which hunctures this thick layer of space junk, really thick, and Sputnik one gets caught in Wally's hands or a bit of the rocket. And I actually show that film to my classes when I'm teaching space archaeology in contemporary archaeology. It's a beautiful, fun film, but there's a lot going on in there.
It's a really graphic representation of It's not an accurate representation because space junk, in fact, is very far apart. You would never see something that looked like like that in Wally. But the point of that scene in Wally isn't to accurately represent a future situation where space junk is that. It's a metaphor, it's a warning. It's part of the degradation of the surface of Earth as you see it in that film, literally covered in garbage with
only cockroaches and robot alive. And then you go to space and you see you see the devastation that has been created in Earth orbit. So I think it's a very powerful piece of the film. But the thing to remember is that space junk is in fact, I can't think of a good visualization. It's slightly When people see those images that space agencies have made showing the distribution of space junk, they're usually not to scale, so you do get the impression things are very close together, but
it actually isn't like that. I suppose if we did make our own planetary ring out of space junk, it might look a little bit like that scene you see in Wally. Wally's such an interesting film because it's also got a strong heritage theme in it. Of course, Wally's little collection of objects that he doesn't fully always know what are for, but he finds esthetically pleasing or they
speak to him in some way. So if you haven't seen Wally, I'm pretty sure as people would have, but it really is worth looking at.
Oh, I haven't seen it yet, so now I haven't. No, I know, I haven't seen it yet, but I understand I'll ball my eyes out at some point during it.
I'm afraid you will.
Yeah, okay, I'll report back as soon as I watch Wally. You will know because I will tell you about my emotional breakdown in the secret at the end of the episode perhaps next week. Oh also, I took a Twitter poll and twelve percent of you had no idea that I tell a secret at the end of each episode after the credits, which is amazing. So many things to go back and learn, some of them you don't want
to know, but have fun. So Matt d Sofkosonoe, Wayne Hovey, Kaisa Venuski, Star, Misty Dulovich and Kate h asked, what's the next space junk collision event.
Going to be?
A lot of people wanted to know. Our Space Agency is concerned about collisions with space junk.
Oh. Yes, So there's a whole massive area of study and policy and law in the international space community that's called Space Situational Awareness or SSA, and that's basically about how to manage the space junk situation so that we can continue to use satellites for services like telecommunications, navigation, Earth observation, where the prediction all of those things. So
this is a massive concern. There is actually an international committee which is made up of representatives from most of the space agencies whose job it is to look at this. The United Nations Committee on the Peaceful Uses of out of space has This is a major item on its agenda, so there's no need to be concerned that this is not on the radars of the people making the decisions. But we do have problems because it's not possible at this point in time to just whizz up there and
pull out a dangerous piece of junk. There's technical issues with going into orbit to try and remove something, and then there are international relations issues because if you have the capacity to actively remove a piece of junk from orbit, you have the capacity to remove an active satellite, maybe a military one. I'm sorry, didn't mean to do that, really, sorry, but you know this could be the cause of very
serious conflict on Earth and in space. So while we're still very much working on the technology, and there have been a couple of breakthroughs in recent times, that part of it we haven't made a lot of progress on. From my perspective, I think lobbying by the public could have an impact here.
How would you even start to do that? So much worse than cleaning out your classets? Okay, well, first off, it costs money to go to space, a lot of it, so that's kind of a thorny business issue. First, our says, But all kinds of propositions have been made, from nets, to land based lasers, to an eighteen mile cloud of fine tungsten dust that sweeps lighter particles into re entry with it, burning as it accelerates toward Earth. But what about like a space tug bolt.
So a little space tug sent up in this way would have to take so much fuel with it to do more than get just one thing that you know, it hardly becomes worth doing. There's lots and lots of proposals for different kinds of methods. So last year there was a successful test of the harpoon method, in which a spacecraft would spare a little harpoon out into space, which would pierce the body of a piece of space jung and then it could be maneuvered back into the
atmosphere to burn up. This was done successfully in space. That was the first time we've had a test like that. But that's what it was. It was a test. It doesn't and we can go out tomorrow and start sparing all of these objects. There's all kinds of proposals for sales and nets and tethers. What the standard at the moment is that if you are launching a mission, you design the mission to minimize the amount of space junk
that it will create. Sadly, a lot of spacecraft operators don't do that at all because it often adds weight and expense to the mission. So something that could be done would be to somehow figure out how to enforce compliance across the board so we're not continuing to create new debris. So it's going to be a while, I think before we've really got this problem under control.
Right, And I was way too many years old before I found out that cruise ships just unload their toilets in international waters? Is that happening on the iss are there? Space turns? To be honest with.
Me, I didn't actually know that about cruise ships.
But can you believe they just open their hatch once you get like two miles from shore or something? It's horrifying. Okay, it's not that close. It's not two miles. That was hyperbole. It's actually three miles, three miles from whatever beach you're on. Just a floating city could be streaming porta potty slurry into the ocean with a fart and a shrug. Now
is it happening over our heads? As well, gloriously Patron Hollis had the same question, But I wonder do they are there ree strike boos up there?
Well? Some of the Russian space stations used to eject liquid waste, as we call it, and there were stories that the Mere Space Station, which was deorbited in two thousand and one, was surrounded by a little cloud of frozen urine. Now, so people might be aware that the Space Shuttle windows used to be placed regularly because they had been bombarded by little, tiny, tiny micro meteorites and
bits of space jung. They're very, very expensive to replace, but some of them came back with little, tiny yellow streaks where it appears that a piece of frozen urine had plowed through the surface of the window. As for solid waste, I don't think so, but I could be wrong. Most of this stuff would be very low orbit and is likely re entered. What they do on the International Space Station is they eject a lot of their waste in spacecraft with the enter and burn up so it's
not up there floating around. And they do have to bring some samples back for biomedical research as well. But the ISS is pretty clean. It's not contributing to turds in space? You know.
Well, I guess, on the topic of things that are crappy, what is the worst part about being a space archaeologist, either from something petty to something existential, like what sucks the most about your job?
I guess I still sometimes encounter people who think that it's ridiculous to look at the social and symbolic and political aspects of space endeavors in the twentieth and twenty first centuries, who think it's just about the technology. And I also come across people who think, because I might be critical of some aspect of space policy or space industry, that this means I'm some unreconstructed luddite who never wants to go to space. And I do find these attitudes
quite mystifying. I'm not interested in justifying what I do. But if people come around eventually and think, oh, well, you know, maybe this is important, that's fantastic. But I suppose there's a sort of a hardcore, a hardcore hardcore of the space community for whom there are no ethical dimensions to what we're doing and there are no negative impacts on anyone. And it can be quite interesting getting into those conversations.
And what about your favorite thing about it? What just gives you butterflies still about it? Even doing this for twenty years.
Well, we know so much about human space exploration. There's so many books and archives and papers and oral history interviews and documents. You know, there's so much information to work with. But I will still come across, you know, odd little facts or personal stories or weird things just hiding in some odd corner of an archive, or some casual statement that someone makes to me. There's so many
amazing stories about the human engagement with space. And telling those stories and finding them and communicating and sharing them for me is the most exciting part of being space archaeologist.
And of course people can find that inductor Space Junk versus the Universe archaeology in the future.
I'm guessing that, yes, lots of these stories loaded into there.
How silky smooth was my segue there. It's just masterful. Also, it's just an excellent book. And where can people find you? Because I know this is something that I mean, I'm going to have dreams about Space Junk for for decades. I think, where can you find where you're writing and where you're telling these stories?
So you mentioned my book doctor Space Junk versus the Universe Areology in the Future, So that's a sort of a general overview of the field of space archaeology, also space history, and also a discussion about some of their ethical issues and some of those stories that I love telling. So they're all in that book. You can also find me on Twitter at doctor space Junk, so I talk a lot about space archaeology and heritage and cake over there as well, so there will be cakes. You just
have to live with that. I also write a blog called Space Age Archaeology, and that's often got things in it that aren't quiet enough to write into an academic article, but just little thoughts and threads that I want to follow and investigate.
Amazing. Thank you so much. I'm so glad that you got into my orbit and then I got into yours. Thank you so much for letting me ask you so many questions.
Well, thank you Ellie. Your question we're very insightful, and so was that of the pageons. It has been a pleasure to talk about this with you.
So ask focused folks spacey questions, because how the hell else would you know about spacep and sacrificial cosma Nott docs So do follow doctor Elis Gorman on all platforms and get her book Doctor Space Junk Versus The Universe, Archaeology and the Future, and there will be a link to all of that in the show notes. You can follow me if you want to at Ali Ward just one l on Twitter and Instagram. We're also at Ologies
on Twitter and Instagram, so do be my friend. And if you need a sweet Ologies gift, including a mask, order soon go to ologiesmarch dot com. The link is in the show notes. Thank you Shannon Feltus and Bonnie Dutch for managing that they host a very funny podcast called You Are That, so do check that out. Thank you Aaron Talbert, who admins Theologies podcast Facebook group will of really good human People. Thank you to Emily White and all the transcribers who help get free transcripts available
for anyone who needs access to them. Those are at the link in the show notes. Thank you Caleb Patten for bleeping episodes so they are kid safe. Those are also on my website for free at the link in the show notes. Thank you and happy birthday to Valerina and my right hand lady Noel Dilworth, who helps schedule
all the guests. Thank you to the wise and wonderful Jared Sleeper of my Gem Media, who not only assistant edits but has also kept the trains running on time and gotten me into a better production schedule this week, which is very exciting. Thank you as always to the Mission Control lead editor Stephen Ray Morris, who puts all my brain debris together. He also hosts the Percast and See Jurassic Write, two really great podcasts. And Nick Thorburn wrote the launch in re Entry Music and he's in
a band called Islands. Now a few stick around, pass the credits. Maybe this is the first time you've ever heard me tell a secret. Jared and I happen to watch this new comedy special on Netflix called Nate, which is so good and so weird, and in the middle of it, we just looked at each other because we realized that we looked exactly like the two characters central
to the show, and so it's a joke. We took a picture and put up a side by side pick and the star of the show saw it and reposted it and also said that we were the couple that inspired the whole show, which was fucking hilarious of her and also not true. We don't know her, but I had such a weird fangirl moment of being like, ah, she noticed me. But also I hope no one takes as the truth, because if you watch the show you would know why. But yes, the resemblance is uncanny, particularly
the hair. But it's a very great thought provoking special. It's called NATO Netflix. Okay, that's it. Don't be afraid to fail, cut banks, textra, crush, huff some bark. All right, that's enough enemy for by pacadermatologyology, no zoology, lithology and Technology, meteorology, old pathology, anthology, seriology, sinology, m