Smologies #17: FLAGS with E. Tory Laitila

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Oh hey, it's a lady who went to Hawaii on a squid research expedition and fit in an Ologies interview while I was there. Hi, it's Sally Ward. This is Smologies and Smologies are kid friendly. All ages episodes that we have cut down and sculpted to be shorter, And this week we bring you a lovely fellow who was a joy to meet up with on the island of o Wahoo and Hawaii, So get ready for him. This dude loves flags. I love him for it. Okay, vexillology.

Lagious pology pologist.

Okay, so this vex vexillologist vexillologist got his bachelor's in museum studies at the University of Manoah in Hawaii and spent seventeen years as a registrar in Honolulu's Mayor's Office of Culture and the Arts. He was an expert in charge of public art collections and who flies what flags. When the dude digs flags, he loves fabric. I always think of, like how easy to pan has it. When you're a kid and you have to draw your flag, You're like, I got a dot in the middle, I'm

So it's it's usually the country, okay, or the head of state.

Okay.

So if you look like a lot of older flags, they are just you know, sometimes one, two, three colors, horizontal lines or vertical lines, you know, stripes, and you know that goes back to heraldry where there was the king, and he might have a coat of arms and it might have one or two colors, so you replicate that on the flag.

Oh okay, quick aside about the Japanese flag also called the Hnumorrow, So that big crimson dot is representing the sun because Japan is known as the land of the Rising Sun. And while they're big signature red dot on a field of white has been used since the fourteen hundreds. It was designed formally in eighteen seventy. It wasn't legally adopted until nineteen ninety nine. That's like being engaged for one hundred and twenty nine years. Everyone just assumes you're married,

MM.

Growing up trying to draw the flag of Mexico with this ornate eagle eating a serpent well perched on a prickly pair, this was an exercise of childhood artistic humility, or really for anyone without a studio art degree. But I did some reading and knowing it's a symbol delivered by a god of war via a dream to an Aztec leader about where to settle what's now Mexico City, I'm like, all right, yes, this flag is very beautiful and I love it Mexico. Please don't be offended if

July fourth of July, I will fly the bets of Gross flag.

Oh nice, and now I need to look up her story. Do you like her stories at Worth Telling? Are you like? Eh, it's apocryphal. Apocryphal means it's doubtful or dubious, it's sketchy, a bit suss, you get it.

Well?

You know, there are theories on who or who came about with the flag, and there is some evidence for that she did so a flag and with the stars in the circle arrangement. We will acknowledge that as being the Betsy Ross design, although there were other designs at the time.

Is there any truth in George Washington's wife?

So there's a story that's passed down. There's the Ross family that says, you know, there were a meeting and the generals got together and Bets Ross was the wife of one of the generals and Washington was there. They did a little sketch and so she sowed the flag. And so there is that story that's the truth.

What do you think happened?

There were other flags that were flown by American patriots at the time. I mean we from them were familiar with, like the Bunker Hill flag or the gats And flag that don't tread on me flag, And so you have these other flags that were used during the American Revolution, and the red and white or the stars and stripes that came to be called you know, really became the one that was accepted nationally.

What do you think about the don't tread on me flag?

It's fine, you know, it's another flag that has its uses, and some people have adopted it today to mean other things. Right.

Gadson's flag side note is primarily mustard yellow, and it features this impossibly coiled and I guess ready to strike rattlesnake with thirteen rattles representing the original colonies. It dates back to that time and it's sometimes used in modern day by conservative parties to harken back I guess to an arrow when the country was smaller and we didn't have indoor plumbing, and rattlesnakes were able to hover in the air like a broken mattress. Spring must have been

I try and write significant dates on my calendar.

Hmm, that's smart. Do you check it every day?

I still have a written calendar?

Oh, got me too, I'm.

Very low check. I have a wall calendar on my wallet home and a desk calendar on my desk at work. And they're both handwritten notations, so they have to have big square so you can put things in them. And I'll just go back and forth and check. And there are a few historical calendars out there that are really

Do you have a favorite looking flag, one that you're just like, man, I wish we had that one.

Well, one of my favorite flags. Is hard to tell which one is your favorite, because there's a there's a flag I fly a lot at home. But a really cool looking flag is Ohio.

What really, I'm sorry, Ohio for doubting you. Okay, tell me about it.

It's a swallow tail.

Pennant, Ohio, I had no idea you had what patent holding flag designer John Eisman describes as a quote triangular, forked or swallowtailed flag, corresponding to the shape generally known as a cavalriquid on or broad pennant. So beloved is Ohio's flag. It's even sold as a necklace. So a patented pennant pendant, if I may be a pedant.

So that means it's pointy. But then the end isn't a point. It's got a swallow tail in it, so it can you can fly it upside down. It still looks right side up. But who else has a swallow tail pennant?

No one? How they get so fancy? They got tuxtails.

Well, it's all about the hills and the valleys and the rivers of Ohio.

Oh Man and ever the rest of us. I'll just have squares.

So there is a government specification on the ratio of the flag, the height and the width, but most of us, in practical usage will fly what's referred to as the NATO standard.

Okay, some standard sizes three by five, four x six. But what's the smallest flag? You want to know? Is it the size of like your thumbnail, your pinky nail? Smaller? Is it the size of a crumb of banana bread? Oh, you have no idea. So I looked it up, and according to the Guinness Book of World Records, there exists a flag that is one one hundredth the width of a human hair. It's only viewable with an electron microscope. Who made this? What wizardry is this? What is on

The Hawaiian flag is rectangular, The ratio is one to two, okay. It has a field of h stripes with white, red and blue alternating, and a union jack in the canton.

Just a side note. A canton in vexillology is a quadrant of the flag, usually the upper left corner, which is like a position of honor on a flag. It's where on a US flag the fifty stars are. It's like a picture and picture but for flags. How did they come up with this design?

So it was during the reign of Commandmea, the first where Hawai started trading, and so ships needed ways to recognize themselves when they went to foreign ports. And so when Hawaii started trading outside of Hawaii, they needed a flag to be recognized, and so they came up with the Hawaiian flag, and it was drafted by a British officer.

Side note. Kamei Maya the Great was a ruler who united the Hawaiian Islands in the late seventeen hundreds. And here's a fun tidbit.

His full name is Coloney put ya for here kaleki kekui kamemo, oh your loney.

Hoke another fund tedbit. I did not say that Hawaiian born patron Iris McPherson did because I did not trust my mouth and brain and eyes to get it together on her anyway.

Colony put ye for here kalekimi ke ekui kamemo.

Oh your loney ruled through eighteen nineteen. And this has nothing to do with anything, but one of his wives took their throne after his death, and among the things she changed was that women were finally allowed to eat bananas.

It's bananas.

She was also Protestant. There was a lot of badness with missionaries. Eventually, the US took control of the Kingdom of Hawaii in eighteen ninety three in an overthrow the Congress assistance admitted was illegal, which is why, just in general,

And it does hold the Union Jack because of the close alliance between Hawaii and Britain at the time. Now, come hand me. The first liked flags too, so he would just fly whatever flag you liked. It is compound.

Now, what is flown most commonly in Hawaii?

You see the Hawaiian flag. Now, the Hawaiian flag, as far as I know, is the only flag that has flown unchanged for five different forms of government.

Why is that? Why didn't they switch it up at all?

I guess for continuity. I mean it flew under a absolute monarchy, constitutional monarchy, a republic, a territory, and a state, and they did not change the flag.

When it became a state. The US didn't say like, okay, real cute, you got a Union Jack. That air is over people.

Well you know it was there the territory and they just they kept the flag.

And I have heard a little bit about the way the flag is flown can express different viewpoints, sentiments, protestations. Perhaps is it flown upside down right side? What what does it mean?

So when a flag or any flag is flown upside down or visibly upside down, it's a sign of distress, a little help place. So it's usually like maybe sending out an SOS signal to somebody, because there was a time where flags were our communication. So when a ship came into port and you're expecting somebody to be on that ship, if you saw their flag at half mast masked on a ship, you knew somebody had passed away. If it was flying upside down, you know that that ship was in trouble or distress.

Oh wow, you'd have to know a little bit about the flag that you're looking at.

Correct right and then some flags they look the same right side, right side up or upside down.

Oh no, what do you do?

There'd be in trouble.

Yeah, did you ever play flag football?

I did play flag football?

Were you like, I'm only using American and Hawaiian flags?

Well, you have to remember when the term flag doesn't have to be these these these symbols. It could also be utilitarian, you know, like flag football, sprinkler flags, a checkered flag, you know, they have other meanings. And the more utilitarian semile four flags.

What about uh surrender flags?

That's more of an utilitarian tool because it didn't stand for anybody it was the white flag?

Was that just someone taking gauze off?

And what could be anything? I mean, you know, if you have the surrender, you use whatever you have.

If someone take their underpants off, I got away something here? Can I ask you questions from listeners?

Sure, I'm kind of exciting one hundred.

And five questions about flags? But before we unfurl your questions, a few words from sponsors of the show, who make it possible for us to make a donation to a charity of each ologist choosing, and Tory said that he would like to go with Connecting to Collections Care, which is a program under the American Institute for Conservation that helps smaller cultural institutions provide good care for valuable collections

Drivers know what grubble sounds like?

No?

No?

Okay?

Forward, well no, no.

No, that's why they get covered from Ireland's soundest car insurance provider, Supervalue Insurance.

Thanks for calling us fin and don't beat your step up about it. Sure, I'm driving ten years and parallel parking.

Still that wasn't me Get a quote from Supervalue Car Insurance to get ten percent off online.

And we'll even throw in forty euroin vouchers. Teacency supply vouchers include two twenty euro or forty eurospent.

This car insurance is underwritten by AX Insurance STACKED super Value Financial Services. STACK trading as Supervalue Insurance is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland.

Okay, onto your flag questions. People have been wanting this one for a while. You thought flags were boring, didn't you. People light them on fire, They'd die for them. So many of you wanted to know why they even exist, like, for example, Tarn Fernanz, Jack Steph, Julie Bear, Heather Decko, Erica, Ellen Vossakiel Holly Andrews, Deli Dames and jam Cruise. First time question asker says, was there a specific moment when flags became a thing for every country?

Well, that's a good question because I would say flags and its use I mean go back to like Babylonia m hm and the Romans use them Okay, in different different styles and different ways. In Penance and Gonfalons as we use. But I think probably this is my opinion. You know, with the United Nations, the League of Nations or the United Nations, and then the Olympics is where you really needed something to rally behind politically, not necessarily

Same gown of the oscars? You gotta change it? Now? Is that your favorite part of the Olympics? Are you there for the open ceremony?

I like the opening ceremonies.

Now. The next topic was also on the minds of patrons Megan King and Aviva Elizabeth Zane. Libram wants to know are there any vessels out there that still fly the black Jolly Roger flag and why do they do it? What is it?

Okay? So are there are different So people think of the Jolly Roger as the one, and I've actually seen a Molly Roger. Oh so it's actually a kind of nine tails and the skull has liptick on it. The modern modern designer came with the Molly Roger. But you have these pirate flags, and they were slightly different, like I think Edward Teach had like a skeleton and a heart, and so they actually had meetings, but they were the

And why did they have that Jolly Roger? Was that just like a we're here and we're gonna mess your stuff up, so watch out everyone.

Well that was that was the way that communicated with each other. And so sometimes a ship would fly a false flag to getting close and when they attacked, then they would fly up whatever flag that they're flying under. So privateers, remember privateers were the legal pirates, and then you had pirates.

Oh, I didn't know that privateers were legal pirates.

So a pirate would be raiding other ships, and a privateer was somebody waiting for their country. They were sanctioned.

Ugh, so then they were just thieves and then they were like, I'm thieves for my country. Wow, Privateers Meredith. What we wants to know is there any significance in countries that have flags of the similar patterns and same colors but in different order, like France versus Paraguay, Belgium versus Germany, et cetera.

Well, you have a lot of those we could say old world flags where they really are established and basing on national colors, so they're very, very simple, and so those are older flags as opposed to some of the modern flags where you have a little more iconography on or modern iconography. So you have like like the Scandinavian cross, like really all the countries of Scandinavia, it's that same cross pattern in different colors.

So side note, why do so many Scandinavian countries have that Nordic cross motif? I was like, hmm, there's going to be some old like maybe where the land intersex with the sea or like the latitude of the summer sun. But now it's just a straight up Christianity symbol. So what about flags that look like Neapolitan ice cream?

You know, it's like the tricolor of the French tricolor. I mean you have you know, Ireland and Italy it's it's basically using national colors just on a flag.

Oh okay, so it's just kind of like, hey, we're cousins a little bit.

Or the flags are old enough. We just needed we just needed a couple of colors on it.

Back then, back.

Of the day, we just needed one or two colors on the flag. And it was just one color or two colors.

And now, what is the thing that you love the most about your job or your life as an exillologist, or about flags.

It's just a bit of history and to recognize what's what's been, what's in the past, and use some kind of visible symbol to recognize those dates. And I have a good job.

I think. Do you think in the future we're just going to use space holograms for flags?

I don't know about holograms, but you know how retro is becoming more popular. Maybe where we're going to go where maybe we'll regress a little bit.

I love that you're keeping the past alive by continuing to make it cool because you're cool. Thank you so much for doing this. I love this so ask well dressed and informed people questions because there's weird trivia flying right over our heads all the time, you might as well ask about it. Go forward, ask questions now. For more info on flags, Nava dot org. Nava dot org is a great resource. You can find a local vexillological club. Let your nerd flag fly. We are at ologies on

A solog.

Someone got me a selection of flags.