Oh hey, it's that mark that you get on your chin when you're wearing lipstick and then you take a bite of a giant sandwich. Ali Ward back with a warm blooded and informative hour of chuckles that I just
can't wait to get to. So just thank you up top to everyone on Patreon who submitted questions for this episode and who supports the show, and to everyone keeping ologies a top science podcast with all of your ratings in your word of mouth and your reviews which I read on purpose everyone so that I can pick one such as this from Cathport, whose review on Apple was submitted in the form of this haiku. Interesting folks, bright lights in their ologies. Dad Ward, my friend too, Cathport.
I loved it. Thank you. Also thanks to that one car guy named Frank and anonymous seven eighteen for leaving your first ever podcast reviews, and Lizzie's thanks for dreaming about me next to a campfire. It sounded fascinating. Okay, mammalogy. So mammology comes from the Latin for titties, gentle folks, and we're going to get so into that I can't even tell you, but technically this is an allergy. It's not an ology, and I only realize that after spelling
mammalogy wrong approximately one billion times in a row. So this ologist is a big deal. A ted talker multiple times, anat GEO explorer, a longtime science writer and an advocate and a researcher, a professor, a tweeter, an icon, an idol of mine. And I sent my first breathless, very sycophantic pleading message to her in January of twenty eighteen, two and a half years ago, and she was not
another continent busy with research. And I had been hoping for a time that I'd be anywhere near Saint Louis and she would have an hour to spare. But time and remote recording finally brought us together. She hails from Tennessee and got her bachelor's degree in animal science at Tennessee Technological University, got a master's from a University of Memphis and a PhD from University of Missouri Saint Louis. She did postdocs at Oklahoma State and at Cornell University.
She's currently an assistant professor of Biology and Urban Ecology and Mammology at Southern Illinois University in Edwardsville, and is also an organizer of this week's Black Mammalogist Week, which runs September thirteenth through nineteenth. So you were definitely gonna want to follow Black Mammologists b LK Mammologists on Twitter and get ready. They got technique Tuesday, they got we out here Wednesday, Threatened mammals Thursday for Friday, see Mammals
Saturday this week. So there's more info and links up at Blackmammalogists dot com. There's a link to that in the show notes. Get excited so we talk about that. We also talk about this biologist's work on animals of all kinds, especially the furry milky ones, and we chat about fieldwork, plata pi furriness and parenting styles and nipples
of every stripe. And I was so excited to talk to her that I honestly was kind of speechless and just starstruck, and I just wanted to get out of the way and listen because she's just wonderful and insightful and informative. So please get ready to meet one of the world's coolest professors and mammalogists, doctor Danielle and Lee.
I'm ready to stick.
Oh yeah, Okay, of course I want to talk to you about all these warm blooded, furry little creatures. The first thing I'll have you do, if it's okay, if you could just say your first and last name, so I make sure I pronounce it right and pronounced thank you.
So my name is Danielle ian Lee, and my pronouns that she and her. But I also just don't care, okay, And I'll tell you why. So in the process of doing my research in Tanzania and learning Swahili, there are no ginger pronouns in Swahili. Really, they don't exist. They just don't exist. Like because I kept asking and I was I realized that because people who speak English would constantly get their pronouns mixed up. They would say he and she interchangeably, and I thought it was, oh, it's
because they don't know English very well. No, it's because those words are the equivalent. He and she are equivalent and Swahili because he and she don't exist. So that's what it's just like. So this is all a construct matter.
That's so beautiful, that's so good to know. And this is the first time I've asked that up top because I had a listener say, hey, could you just start asking because that kind of normalizes it and it yes, but.
I also just realized it's a very English thing. It's a very well, it's a language. It's not just English, but I suppose it also matters in Latin languages as well. Yeah, but like that's very language specific. This doesn't mean anything in parts of the world where there's no gendered pronouns at all.
Oh that makes my day. Bye bye, thank you. That Queriana on Twitter, whose partner goes by they them Yanna says that CIS folks can help normalize using and asking pronouns and that the acknowledgment really means something. And I would never have learned that about Swahili. So he says, can you tell me a little bit about your research that you that you did in Tanzania.
Absolutely, I study giant pouched rats, but those who get the reference Princess Bright Huh.
Yeah.
I study r o U s tes rodents of unusual size. I don't think they exist. They are large rotents that look like rats. They're not rats proper. They look like rotents. They are rotents. They rat like rotents. And I'm holding my hands up across my body, but anywhere from nose to tip of tail. They can go anywhere from two and a half one and a half to two and a half to three feet long.
What was it like the first time that you saw one?
The first time I finally got the Sea one, I was just like, I can't believe this thing. It's big. It's the size of a cat, like a nice sized house cat. Like they're cat guys. They're very strong, they're very fast, they are smart. They are the rats. They are the rats of them.
We can no longer than him. That's what happens.
We know too much. They are they they know and I mean that. So the first ones we got, we got a shippment from Ghana and we house them in rabbit cages. That's what we house them in.
Hutches.
Big. Yeah, they're that big. We house them in rabbit cages. They have a lot of dexterity in their hand, like they can grab things very easily. And when we get them, we have to process them because they're actually you can't they're not actually allowed in the United States. There's a moratorium on shipping African rotents, and this particular road in particular because in two thousand and three there was a monkey pox outbreak in this rot and this species is
responsible for it. So they're on the no fly list. So to get them, you got to have all special permissions in your track past CDC, and we have to do all these tests and submit them, and you have to submit salava swabs to make sure that they don't have monkey pos oof.
Okay, I know you're like, what's monkey pox? And it's a virus. It was first discovered in captive monkeys in nineteen fifty eight, and in two thousand and three there was a US outbreak that, according to the CDC, involved forty seven confirmed and probable cases of monkey pox. They were reported from six states. Sorry, the Midwest, it was all you. And all those cases stemmed from prairie dogs which were infected by Gambian pouched rats. Then an exotic
wildlife importer from Texas brought in here. Again like needing a visual. So these pouched rats, they weighed like four pounds, They averaged two to three feet long, some not including their tails, and they have kind of big cute pink ears. So imagine like a chihuahua with a long tail and a mickey mouse hat, or like a possum. But the rats just imagine huge rats.
And I remember when it happened. So I'm assisting the vet who's swabbing the back of their mouth their cheek pouches. That's what they called pouch rats. They have cheek pouches like hamsters. Oh and one of the rats, I swear it looked him dead in the eye and he reached with both hands and he glabbed the swab and yanked it out his mouth. And everyone who was there was me and it was a graduate student in the VET, and we all looked at each other and said, did
anyone else just let this down? That just happened. It looked him in his eye and yanked and looked at it, yanked it out his mouth. I will forever remember that and if and in my memory, that was the same rat who escaped all he got out of the cage all the time. He always escaped. Oh. They were really good at removing their name cards so that they were because at first, I I apologize now, but I thought it was the animal care cleaning the cages. Then they
forgot to put their name tags back. Oh no, and I was like, we can't have this. We got to keep the name cards on. And if we come to find out it wasn't It wasn't the staff at all. It was the rats. They were removing their own cards, they were removing their own water bottles. We had to change a lot of our protocols and how we the day to day husbandry of how you care for them. They're debt. They're that different from regular rat. We have to change the materials we use. We can't use glass
bottles because they're so good at flipping them out. They were breaking these super industrial expensive pirates bottles.
Oh my god.
Every night, they were just breaking them because they would slit them out and then they would use that little hole to either reach their hand out and undo the cage, or for the smaller ones, they would move their food hutch because it slide in, and then they would use that to escape out.
Okay, So I asked what happens when they escape, and she said, it's not like Monkey Pock's panic. Sirens go off and there's mayhem. There are double doors for safety, but it's certainly like a come on guys moment.
So at my last institution where we house them, which was Cornell University, part of what we did we had one that escape, so often, like we just got used to it. We would just put hutches around the room because what it is is they just go out on these little johnts. They literally would go on jump. So we would put just extra little hutches, which is just it's a mailbox top. So imagine a mailbox thing with
out a door. That's their little housing hutch. We would just put a couple of these in the room in the corner, and then when the staff will come in to do the daily checks, they just you just take a peek in them. And the good news is, because there's a handle on top, you can just if you're very careful, just pick the hounch on up, open their homecage and put it right back in. But yes, once we get used to it, they get used to us,
they'll go into a hutch. Otherwise you got to get out there and you got to catch them.
Oh how do you catch them.
When they're loose like that? I cornered them and grabbed their tail. Yeah.
Oh my gosh. You did an awesome Ted talk talking about these animals and how little was known about the biology and so are you really having to kind of figure out basically, what's the life cycle. What's a reproductive cycle? Are you spending a lot of time in the field with them?
I am, so I do the field work. So we When this project first started, I was brought on board and I was the start of doing all that. But now the project has expanded, so I'm now and I have a faculty position, so there's been additional posttos brought on board. So this has been an expanding team effort, so I wanted to make that clear. So a lot of the stuff I started just noting the questions and
the patterns of behavior. We've been able to pick this work up by others and spread it out across multiple teams now, so I'm excited about that. But yes, this is exactly how it started. We didn't know anything and we started from scratch. The first animals we got were the ones from Ghana, which we only got four, which wasn't enough to do any research. That just helped me get used to the to the animals and handling them all right.
So in the genus Chrysotomis, I think you've got your Gambian pouch strat and as it turns out, three other species with different variations, which doctor Lee encountered once she started working with the ones in Tanzania, Boy, how they did she but.
That's a different species. Oh and from my observations, haven't handled both. They're different. They're different, they look different, they have slightly different behaviors out the ones from Ghana. Because I've never seen any interact with anything that big and fast. I was like, oh, these are them, these guys are there's some tough customers. You don't want to come along that night. And when I got to Tanzania, I realized the ones from Ghana were baby dolls.
Oh my gosh.
They were outright, just just snugly compared.
Well, they're so smart and they're so dexterous. You are able to research how they can be used to help with finding landmines. Right.
So that's actually a nonprofit does this. So they do the training and they've worked with several academic teams from a little bit of all over.
But they do.
What they do is really basic operate conditioning, positive reinforcements, and they trained them. Now, they don't work with wild animals, so some of the history behind that is, you know, in the early days trying to make it figured out. They're working with wild ones because these are nuisance rodents. So that's the thing I learned in doing it, because
I work in the wild with wild animals. I learned that all the animals that have gone into the program, they were captured originally tried to train, but then now they just go into breeding. They're all nuisance animals that are caught within the town because they were getting into somebody's house or food stores or just vexing them in some sort of way. Mm hmm. They're all nuisance animals. Wow.
So I'm hosted by the local university, Sokoenia University of Agriculture that's in Tanzania, and my host department is the Pest Management Center. And so just as the name would say, they are pets.
It'd be like if we had a raccoon getting in the garbage and then we're like, you know what, as long as we gotcha, do you want to help us find some land mines.
That's exactly how it works, landmink and help us diagnose tuberculosis because that's also what they can do.
Really, and that's are they using like old faction for that?
All old faction, This is all old faction.
That just means smell. But I was trying to sound more professional because underneath I was very giddy to be having this conversation, if you must know.
Anyway, her postdoc, so the postoc that's at Cornell now, doctor Angela Freeman. She's been doing some amazing again basic biology and descriptive studies, looking at really focusing on their old faction, and so she's really getting down to some of the questions of the answers of how is it they're so good at this. She's really doing a lot of that. So she's looked at old faction and then because old faction, we know we can use it for
training for work. But then here's where the biology comes from. And the ethologist in me is, what are they using old faction from in the while? And it's likely for reproduction, it's likely for social interactions, and so she's been beginning to look at old faction from the reproductive point of view, and the stuff that's come out so far it's just what you would expect. It's like, oh, they're good at smelling, so that they can identify who's receptive and who's not receptive for mating mm hm.
So it's just like an extrasensory pheromone snooter looking around.
Looking around, so they use it for that. Very likely they use it for finding food. And they already have the evolutionary of mechanics for sniffing things out really well. It makes sense that they've been really good at sniffing out these other molecules related to either lung disease or TNT.
Wow.
And that's essentially what's That's what applied science is is using what we know about basic science, and you hone in on it for applied science.
So this is a big deal because between fifteen to twenty thousand people each year are killed or injured by land mines, and our little rat friends are really great at sniffing out the TNT plus are too light to detonate the landmine, and they don't bond with their trainers like dogs do, so they can move around to different countries without getting emotionally but hurt. Now, Doctor Lee notes that we know a lot about dogs, but not enough about these rodents of practically dog size.
The reason why the like in my ted talk I talked about that they put the applied science the organization that trained them. They put the applied science in front of the basic science and they had a lot of trial and error and what and the reason why I talk about that is because when we don't take our time and invest in basic science, you'll lose a lot of time. And that's what happened. It took them years and years and years to kind of perfect their protocols.
And they're still working on perfecting your breeding protocols simply because didn't understand what's their breeding ecology, what's their mating system? So what I do? I studied them in the wild, though I take trips now at this point when I'm able to leave the country about once the year. The other year really trying to find out where they live and how they live, so finding in marketness, who lives there, who's visiting there, what's tried to estimate their home ranges,
or who overlaps with whom. And this story is still as much as I find out. I'm still figuring things out.
So one thing she's discovered in her research is that depending on the age and the sex of these super sniffer rodents, they use their space differently. Also, they like to get down aug.
Many mammals, they're probably not monogamous, and that there's lots of visitation and checking up on one another. So old faction is very important. But then one of the things that's always been an issue since I've began visiting there since twenty twelve is the fact that if I were looking at my data as far as age ages of individuals are trapped, you never trap young ones. You never trap babies. They don't come above ground. Oh, they don't
come above ground. And then when I'm talking to my host, so that includes my host at the university, includes my technical host. And so the person who I'm amazingly indentded to is Shabane Lutea. So he's a he's a tech at Pest Management Center, and he's truly the authority on pouch rats. I just get to work with him. I'm very very lucky and I get to codify and I get to work with him. But he's taught me everything. I know. He's the one who's caught every single animal
that has gone into that training program. Like he really is that person. He was the one who as I'm out with him catching animals for my research, that's when I kind of started putting the story together. He's like, yeah, all these animals came from basically the equivalent of his backyard, his backyard and throughout his neighborhood. So like I literally can I spend I spend a lot of my time
on one street. One street is notorious contributed more to saving lives and repatriating land from one whole street.
Oh my gosh, which is a we would call it a neighborhood.
So a neighborhood and moragirl, this working class neighborhood in Tanzania has done more for that. Uh. But in the in the process of doing that, in the process of spending time with these families, in the process of them letting me not just come in their house but trump all through through their property, that really started awakening me to thinking about so what does this research mean to them? Like this is an animal that bothers them.
But doctor Lee says in their eyes.
Yes, it's nice and it's great that it saves lives. But they're literally like, we've been catching rats for years and giving them away or getting rid of them because they're bothering us. When is this research going to mean something to us? And that really stopped me in my tracks and I started thinking about it. I was like, you're right, you know, I need. This research has to matter now, and so trying to understand their habits and what makes them good at exploiting these things is now.
Is now what I'm focused on, specifically, trying to understand their distribution and their movement patterns such that we can come up with solutions to help people to either divert these animals from coming into the houses or coming into their property. But it's interesting, despite all of that, folks don't they're not overwhelmingly antagonistic. Their feelings aren't overwhelmingly antagonistic.
Like they'll say they bother me, they vexed me, could you do something about it please, But like it doesn't come off as you know, I'm ready. It's not like the grounds keeper up and they have every right for.
It to be by full by enemy is an animal in order to conquer him, I have to think.
This is what I'm learning. So this I'm going to be very clear, this is what I'm learning as as an American, as a Western scientist doing science in a place where people have a historical and indigenous relationship to an animal, Like I really believe that's a very Western way of thinking of it. Like this idea that you have to that human wildlife conflict have to all be contentious or people have to feel antagonistic against it just
because there's a conflict. I really, I'm really beginning to think that is a construct that we've created because we compartmentalize ourselves outside of nature so much. Yeah and so yeah, it vexes them, but they also you know, it's not a deal breaking. In other words, people haven't picked up and moved, you know, you know, and they need So sometimes it comes down to what better resources can we
provide for people? So some of it is, you know, if we have better resources an infrastructure for how we built our houses or the foundations, what materials are available to people for laying the foundation of their home, it could some of these some of these issues could be addressed for that it won't fix all of them. Or it could come down to if we had infrastructure grants so that more people had indoor plumbing, because they usually I found them accessing near the we would call it
an outhouse, so they're they're toilet. Well, if folks have indoor plumbing, this isn't an issue anymore. I've come to realize there's so many different ways to think about this and some of it just comes down to if we're just sharing, you know, intellectual capital resources with one another in different parts of the world.
And what about you? Growing up? Were you someone that was out in nature a lot. Were you looking at particularly mammals or lizards, or bugs or flowers. When did you kind of start to really appreciate wild life.
I always liked I was an outside kid, so I grew up outside. My mom was worked in parks and w reck so I got to go. I went to work with her every day. So like childcare was a minimal thing. I got to hang out in tow So I spent my days outside on the park, outside the park, in the front yard, backyard. This is I'm also Jenet, So you know, kids were expected to go outside and just play, just go figure it out. Yeah, and so I liked I've always liked animals. I was that kid
bringing stuff home. I really was. I've been a little bit more attentive to the to the cute furries. I tried to have a bird once that didn't go so well. I liked. I liked the furries. I didn't see my first lizard until I was an adult almost. No, I didn't see like reptilia. Wildlife was rare for me, like I think I saw a term once or twice, but turtles were always far away, so like they weren't part of my my urban wildlife scape. So for me, it was all it was mammals, it was birds, and then
it was insects. And I don't like insects. I've never been planning, that's my no go. But the cute furries the q first, absolutely, And I was always asking questions like I've never not been asking questions about why and how and what explain that to me? And I was I was just consumed nature programs, like if it was an animal show on, it was like I was watching it, like I'm gonna watch all the animal shows everything. And so that's really what did it for me.
At what point did you know that you were going to become a scientist? What was that path?
Like, I didn't know I was going to become a scientist until I was in the middle of doing a master's. Really I didn't know. I did not understand and how that path back to the whole always asking questions I start of the project, which wasn't even my thesis. I wasn't even trying to get a thesis. I was just taking classes because I wanted to be I thought I wanted to be a veterinarian and I needed to improve my GPA because I had applied in undergrad and didn't
get in. So I was writing papers and kind of diving deeper into what we call the theory behind biology as opposed to just the facts and the history of discovery. And my professor told me, he's like, you ask a lot of good questions. I'm like, because I'm always asking questions, but I was asking questions from the point of view I just wanted someone to tell me the answer because I was certain those answers existed. I just didn't know
where they were or what the answers were. And it was in the process of taking these classes I realized, oh, a lot of these questions haven't been asked. It's a great question. And so he started me on a project based on one of the papers I wrote in class. It was an animal animal communication and cognition. That was that was my aha. That was the beginning of kind of leading me on this page. And he was like, this paper can be a project, and he outlined how
he could be a project. So I started working with him just on a research project, still not a thesis. I think I had imagine it with birds because it was all just I was just writing hypothetical papers like imagine this and imagine that. And he worked with fil mice vole and so he's like, we can do this project with the animals. I work trying to ask if there's different levels of communication, if there's synonymous signaling. And I was like, okay, you know, I was following alone.
And so I started the project and I started getting into it. And it was in the middle of that project that I was like, oh, this is what the scientific method is for.
Oh how wonderful is that? Okay, get ready for some more inspirational goosebumps.
I really got into it and it hit me. I was like, I don't need anyone to answer my questions for me anymore. I can answer my own questions. That was when I decided to be a scientist. And I literally I had an application in pre vet school and I withdrew it. Oh my gosh, and I was just and I got a call from them because I had interview with them. It was my top choice school, so they knew me because I interviewed twice, and they were like, just just get your scores in. You're you're good, You're good.
We've seen your progress this time. We think it's it. They were like, without saying you're guaranteed, but they were like, we promise you it looks really good for you this time. And I was like no. They were like, but you're really I say, no, I'm gonna I'm gonna take my chances in a fly for PhD. They're like what I was like, I want to be I want to research animal behavior. I realized this is what I've always wanted to do. I just didn't know this was a job
that I could do. I didn't know science was like I knew science, but I only thought knew in my own life from a very applied, practical point of view, like to help people to fix things, to solve a problem. I didn't understand and know that basic research wasn't even was even a Vie pathway. And I didn't really like, this is how weird it was. I was in college, loved college. Did not put together one in one that my college professors were researchers.
Right, No, I completely understand, like they're you know when you go to elementary school. In high school, they're there to teach you. So when you go to college, they're just there to teach you harder stuff. And then yeah, it doesn't click that they're also publishing papers and continuing their ongoing staff right.
Right, yeah, and that's that's why I was like, oh, And I was like, wait, you get paid to watch animals all day. I want I want in on that. I want in on that. And it was in the middle of it was and that's when I went did the paperwork. I was like, I want to get a thesis. I'm gonna do the thesis now, and I'm going to apply for PhD. And I was like, I want to be a college professor, because then I understood that a
professor was someone who not only taught college classes. Is the person who teaches college classes and trains students in science mm hm, And so I was like, that's what I want to do. So yeah, I didn't know. I didn't understand that I could be No one wanted to be a scientist until I was in my master's.
I think that's amazing. Were there any any movies about scientists or about mammals or rodents at all? That really get it right or wrong. I know you mentioned the Princess Bride, which is burned in all of our minds, or any myths about scientists that you'd want to debunk.
Oh, most of the movies don't get it right. Yeah, most of them don't get it right. So I feel like I wouldn't even want to use my time.
Just know they don't get it right.
Most of them don't get it right.
Okay, what about mammals. We're mammals, but so are pouched rats and wolves and test mighty deals. Is there more variation among mammals than say reptiles.
And so now if we're going to look at the whole thing reptiles, big big unbrother, then of course they got the spread. They win. They wind up we're more weirder than you.
That's a very good point.
If we do it that way. But mammals are interesting. So we have a little bit of everything. So we have the live birthers versus the not live birthers. And among the live births we have the fully developed versus the barely developed. Among those that do the fully developed, stay with Mama a long time, or I need you
out the door as soon as possible. So this what I like to call diversity and investment strategy of the species, Like how much do you invest in it offspring to make sure they're you know, big and strong before they're out there on their own in it big widening world. It literally can range from ye years to moments. Yeah, years to moments.
Why do you think that is? And what influences that?
So it's a lot of things to influence that. Some of it is evolutionarily, like you know, just part of it is you got to work with what you got. So you know, if you're a certain type of animal, you're kind of locked into that strategy. So as humans, we're locked into, you know, these long gestational periods of nine to ten months, we're locked into these long post birth periods of nourishment of at least two to three years. And even then just because they don't need to suckle
milk anymore, they're not really out there. They you just can't set them free at seven, Yeah, just can't set them free. They won't make it. So we have this so part of it is but as humans, like the fact that you're born a human, you're locked into that strategy. You just can't decide I want to be like a you know, I want to be a mama kangaroo, and I want to drop this egg in five days, and
that's it. Like, it's nothing you can do about the Evolutionarily, you're locked into whatever you are because of your species. But part of it is evolution, but it's also ecology in other words, so where you are, the time you are, how much space you have to do your business that make a living. All these inputs determine how you make a living and how will you live.
So all these different evolutionary pressures, like if you're dodging predators constantly, or if you gorge food and then store it really well, or if you have a fast metabolism, those will affect your internal furnace. And if you're like I need to know more about thermophysiology, definitely listen to the thermophysiology episode of Ologies with doctor Shane Campbell Staton. His episode is amazing. Also check out his podcast The
Biology of Superheroes, which is so good. Okay, but yes, evolutionary pressures and hot blood.
All these different strategies determine a lot of stuff. So, like going back to comparing birds and mammals, so we're both warm blooded and so another in order for gestation of the risk for your babies to develop really really well. And this is across our species, even for reptiles. You gotta have that right temperature. It literally has to cook. When we say it's been in the other has to cook. It has to cook, and it has to cook at the right temperature. Too hot, too cold, you mess up
the whole recipe. Nothing's gonna nothing is not gonna happen. But there's a few different ways of doing it. So a lot of reptiles they drop their eggs, they put it in the store, they cover it up, they do a little kiss, throw it up to the sky and be like, hope it works out. Like mama, reptiles like, I did a little temperature check. This ground is about right, and I know I'm wouna be gone for forever because I ain't gonna never see you again. This stays. Literally,
kiss up to the sky and I'm out. So that's like like turtles. Birds on the other hand, are like, you know what, I still gotta get this temperature right, but I still need to be able to move a little bit here and there to go get some more food. Because carrying on these eggs they're heavy. They're heavy female animals. When they're grabbed or when they're sitting on the nest, they gotta be careful because it makes them easy pickings for predators. So that's the reason why you know, Mama
turtle holds on to those eggs as long as she can. Yeah, she incubates them and cooks them out. The wise, she's like, I'm too slow. I'm gonna get gobbled up by these sharks or whatever else is out here in the water. I gotta drop these eggs and lighten my load. Mama bird is very similar, but she's like, you know what, I can kind of get up and move a little bit. So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna make this really nice nest. I'm gonna insulate it as much as possible.
If there's a partner involved, we'll take turns sitting on it and keeping it warm. But like, they have to be careful with that too. If they stay gone too long, that throws the temperature off back to the cooking. Like, oh, that's the recipe of what happens in mammals is you know what, I need to be able to move and I need to be able to keep the temperature going. So what female mammals are able to do is they're able to keep their babies with them at all time.
They know that temperature is going to be right, They're gonna go where they go. There's still some trade offs and loss of movement and dexterity, but compared to other species, like female mammals are able to still get quite a bit done even though they're pregnant up until the last day. So that's why some have strategies of sitting still in the end, but they think about cats. They stay hunting, yeah, till near the end, you know. So that's one of
the advantages. So, like we have these trade offs, but like that temperature control is really important. And what we see all these three very dramatic strategies for that temperature control across the three main groups of vertebrates. Drop them off, wish for the best, Yeah, drop them off, but keep up with them. But if things get real reobyed, I'll bug out and I'll start all over again. Or this we are all, we in this together. That's the mammal
that we are in this together. I got you when you got me.
Oh my gosh, I have so many questions from listeners that know that you're coming on the show. So yeah, I announced that you're coming on, and there one's like, ah, so I could ask it, but I would rather let that ask it.
Uh.
Okay, Okay, We're gonna let those questions cook a second longer while we take a quick break to hear about sponsors in the show who enable us to make a donation to a cause of theologists choosing. And this week, doctor Lee chowse some link. That's Science, Engineering and Math Link,
which is a nonprofit. It was found in two thousand and five by Tuka T. Smith in Atlanta, and SemLink promotes student achievement and career exploration in math and science while increasing student exposure to STEM communities and their mission is unveiling potential through exposure. So to learn more or to donate yourself, you can see semsuccess dot org. There's a link to them in the show notes. So a donation went to them in doctor Danielle and Lee's name.
Thanks to some sponsors of the show who you may hear about. Now, okay, your questions this was the most asked question y'all patrons Ashley M. Gelhaus, Lauren Krupens, Asia Jaeger, Ellen Skilton, Clint Herbert, Alia Meers, hardikem Michael McLeod, Attie Cappello, Madeline Winter and first time question asker Miranda Chaves, who wrote in simply platypus man, What the fuck? What is happening with the platypus? Natalie Landon Brandts is first question
asker essentially says like, why are they so weird? Do they even have nipples? They've got eggs and venom, but they're a mammal. What's happening?
Yeah? All right, So platypuses of mammals because they meet the what I call the base criterion of what makes a mammal and mammal, and that is they make nourishment from memory glands. But they don't have nipples. What so you would think nipples, So you can have memory glands without nipples. So what happens with the platypuses? They have tufts of hair. So we think milk glands are actually just special sebaceous glands, those special little glands that hang
out around here anyway. Mm hmm, So that's what we think memory glands are. Still deep research needed to figure that out to be honest.
Oh wow.
So they make nourishment still, they make a milk, but they don't have nipples, and so basically the babies just kind of suckle on little tufts of hair.
A little like little cowlyx. Just milkshake cowlyx, yeah and find out.
Yeah, and they just yeah. So yeah. So they're what we would call on the evolutionary tree, they're like high up, so they're really in between. Like they are a really good example of that that bridge of that connection to our other vertebrate cousins like the birds and the reptiles that we mentioned that I mentioned before, because they have that kind of they have so many traits that are very bird slash reptilian like mm hmm.
But they have eggs, they lay eggs, They do lay eggs, and so you don't have to have live birth to be a mammal.
No, the drop dead criteria is do you make milk for memory glinds. That's where the word comes from, mammal mammary.
So it doesn't matter if you drop some eggs or have a bill, it doesn't I gotta I have to apply to pus expert on because there are a lot of people that are just convinced they're not even real.
So I can't understand thinking that.
Yeah, so Platypus says they're real and they're spectacular. Also, Platypus experts, watch your dms because I'm onto you. This next question, by the way, was just begging for the drama of the superlative and was asked by an over Colleen Selwood, Alia Myers, and Adam Weaver. A lot of folks just want to know if you have a favorite mammal.
I do so when I was younger, Like I love like, I love wools and dogs. I am a dog person. I like them all, but I do like dogs.
Okay.
My favorite to brag on, though, hm, my favorite to brag on are all like mustard its like I love. They're the bad asses of the entire animal Those the weasels, weasels, honey badgers, I love them. They just regularly take on animals fifty times their size. I like to call them. They're there. Ain't never skied, they never ski.
There're spitfires there spitfires.
They don't come lets a stymph of you.
Parrots and weasels and just yeah, I feel you on that. Yeah, that's amazing. Let's see so so many questions. I'm skipping a lot of questions about platypuses because they were all under the same that's neat.
I love that so many people have so many questions. I know.
Pie and Aliat Myers is the first time question asker it wants to know. Are there any mammals that can't make facial expressions? Can most mammals make facial expressions? Is that how they communicate?
Partly many of those that use visuals, so what we call facial expressions, that's that's a lot of eye interpretation. But what many of them are able to do is that there's a lot of dexterity around their their muzzle and their nose, and they have a lot of movement around their ears and around their eyes, and so what we would call facial expressions, they actually do use a lot of being able to manipulate those muscles for a
lot of animal communication within their specie. So we have what's called graded signals or discrete signals, So like ears up, ears back, they all communicate just slight tweaks of how they're you know, of information to conspecifics or even to other animals. That they live in these really large communities and they need to let things know, especially for animals that are communicating with predators, like not today, I'm gonna put off a fight.
What is that expression on your face?
But what we call facial expressions, that's actually a bit more of an interpretation of us because of us as people.
And so we're looking at it because we have facial expressions. So we kind of put that onto other animals.
We do. But yeah, but do they have this dexterity and the muscles in their face? Absolutely?
Alan Skelton wants to know if I have so many mammals evolved to cooperate or stay in large groups as opposed to other animals.
So sociality is really common in a lot of species that we see that we attribute a lot of high cognitive function to We see that, and that's because sociality yields a lot of benefits. Think about it. You don't have to look for mate when it's time to mate. You can conserve your own physiological energy when it comes to keeping you warm the right temperature. Being around others is a really good way to exploit them for information
and other resources. So I don't have to be really good at hunting, I can let you be good at hunting and I come around and pick up scraps. So sociality has a lot of benefits. Now there are costs to it as well. So likelihood is spreading communicative diseases, whether it's like parasites or things like the main or even sexually transmitted diseases like you like, it's too many of us, and things bad things can be passed around really easily, or even sicknesses like what we're experiencing now,
like with COVID among us. You know, sociality accounts against us. But so much of what we need to do to make a living requires, for many species, outright cooperation or even just passive cooperation. And if nothing else, we got to find each other, you know, in order to reproduce.
Yeah, that's true, unless you've got parthenogenesis going for you.
So here's the thing. We know that that can happen with some medical assistance. But if without medical advances, we're back to only working what I call an evolutionary two kit. Evolutionary two kit does not allow us to do a lot of things very very well for long without the aid of others.
Right, someone I've read somewhere about thinking about everything that you have in your life, life, everything that you touch, whether it's like a you know, a shirt that you're wearing too, a glass that you're drinking out of, how many human beings had to be involved in the process of that, whether or not you're drinking tea that came from somewhere else and someone had to grow it. And you know, there's so many people are involved in objects that you don't even think about facts.
Facts.
So even if you're alone, you're touched by others, but not like creepy like ghosts with bad boundaries, just metaphysically. We all affect each other and we're in this together. Mo Casey had a great question about life expectancy and why does a mouse have such a short one compared to a horse which lives for decades and is it just size? And speaking of which, with the pouched rat, how long do they live?
All right? So starting with them, we know in captivity they can live seven to eight years.
Oh wow, Okay, we're.
Not sure how long I live in the wow because from what I can tell, I don't see anyone else that's interested in tracking them in a while, So of the animals. I have tag fingers crossed. I keep finding them. So we usually whenever something lives for a long time in captivity, we estimate about half that in a while because you know, there's no antibiotics in a while. Yeah, there's hunting, there's life. Yeah, things that happen. The reason why different things live a different times, it's not just
about size. Size is a correlate with it, but it comes down to what's happening with them physiologically, their metabolism, how long something takes. So being large enables you to avoid a lot of predators. So that's so big things don't have as many other things that can take them out. If you're not taken out, then you can live a long time thereafter, assuming everything else in your body is in pretty good shape. You just got to get through that scary small period of your life. Ah, so small,
so fragile. So that's one of the reasons. So once you get past that scary juvenile period, then you can pretty much live until what we call that natural death when your body just wears out. But little things live for a short period of time because part of it is their metabolism. Their metabolism is real fast they're they're
they're burning themselves up. We don't use that. That's not technically what's happening, but that's just one way to envision it from a lay position, is that they're they're always going. But the other thing that you got to keep in mouth for things like mice is they don't tend to die of old age. Like we really take for granted as people that most things don't die of old age.
They just are predated.
On, predated on or you or you just kind of die, you just return to the earth in the arms of the angels. So that's but yeah, they do have a relatively shorter lifespan, Like so my small mice species can live one or two years. They don't tend to Yeah,
but yeah, but that's part of it. And so like basically you like you accumulate these effects and so longer lived animals, we tend to see what we call age related like disease, what we call natural causes of death, so things like you know, diabetes or heart disease or like later on set diseases either due to metabolism or structure, and animals that tend to be predated upon or die early, those things just don't accumulate because they tend to die when they're still just in or just past the prime
of life. And by prime, I mean like the height of reproductive life. So in other words, when you're at the height of having the most babies and even looking at people, old age is a relatively new thing for us.
Living to be one hundred would not have happened without antibiotics.
No, no, that's magic. Let's be honest. Yeah, we're the transport and talk to someone from two hundred years ago. One hundred years is magic. Yeah. The demography if you look at it, like fifty was considered old one hundred years ago. Our fifty isn't our parents fifty? Yeah? Yeah, so like we technically so back when my mom was you know, younger fifty five sixty seen. Oh even, like the image of what a fifty five sixty year old
look like is completely different. Like we started joking, you know, saying, oh, today's forty is thirty. Yeah, you know, starting with Demi Moore. Yeah, because she know she's defined. But that's actually becoming progressively true for our generations. We are a younger forty and fifty than our parents were. That's like you for sure.
Yeah. Oh just a side note, retirement communities start at age fifty five, and Wilfred Brimley rest his recently dearly departed soul, was just eighteen thousand, five hundred and thirty days old when Cocun started filming, which is just fifty years old.
Now.
You can see this generational in Kongruty at the Twitter account Brimley line as they tweet out other celebrities who have crossed this age line, Matthew McConaughey, Will Smith, when Stefani, Jennifer Lopez, Jay Z and the entire cast of friends are now older than Wilford Brimley was when he starred as an elderly curmudgeon in Cocun. So life man, it comes at you fast. Oh, Ferris Bueller crossed it eight
years ago, but he looks good, right, Okay? Speaking of ancient things, this next one was asked by patrons Scott Sheldon, Meghan Walker, Vincent Heide, Fernando and Mark Chavs of a lot of patrons wanted to know, if it weren't for the asteroid wiping out the dinosaurs, do you think that mammals would have survived.
To today now that had to happen for mammal evolution, like they like, that is a critical Like when I teach mammalogy, that's one of the one historical events that is critical. If it had not been for that, mammal evolution would have there were still mammals, but they would have stayed small, they would have stayed in the ground. We would not have had a mammalian radiation that's what we call it. That's when the explosion, Like the mammals came above ground and they were able to diversify and
form shape in species. If the dinosaurs had died, none of that would have happened. You would not be here if it had not been for the KT event.
Really, this is literally the first I've ever heard that. That's amazing.
Yeah, said they had to go for us to flourish.
Is that why there are say five thousand species of mammals, but like thirty thousand species of beetles.
Insects have been around for a long time, so they've experienced some radiation as well. So there's been more mammals than we lost some but what we call these radiation events then, so think of radiation as spread out, so it's not just spread out physically geographically across the globe. But it also comes with this diversification and new form
and type big events. So stochastic events are often the reason for radiations of any type across any type of organismal species, so that you need like this, like the spark that caused it. But they're not necessarily Beetles are just there was just a lot of them to begin with, you know, just it's just a lot of.
Your favorite and you love.
No, I do think most many beetles are pretty. They are beautiful, many of them, not all of them. Not because roaches are technically beetles and I hate them.
Yeah, roaches are one. I love bugs, and roaches are one that I'm just like, huh uh, nope, nope, nope, Okay, just quick aside, bug nerds. I know you're like screaming into your windshield or your partner's face. Roaches aren't beetles technically, and yet yes, we hear you. You're correct. They're more closely related to termites. I did some light reading about it, but doctor Lee is here for mammalogy. This is not
a cockroach episode. But also, don't make me dip my toe in the venn diagram between milk and roaches and remind you that cockroach milk is a thing and it comes from one species of roaches who blurp out this substance that is being touted as a super food for humans. Are we done with this?
Okay?
Moving on, Courtney Ryan had a great question. Do you think there are any undiscovered mammals out there?
Absolutely? Really there there are? Yeah, there are places where we're really not so undiscovered from the sense of Western science. Absolutely wow.
Let me see. I want to oh. First time question asker MJ Kayla Queen, who says I love you both and is excited you're on your first time question. Asker says, I love mammals. Why are some people afraid of mice? Do you think you know what?
I can't speak for everyone. Are they afraid or are they startled? Because it just shocks you to see something scary? Huh? And so so I'm not afraid of rodents by any means. But if I catch something in the side of my eye moving that I wasn't expecting, I'm going to jump. That's a very normal startle response. So I believe it's naturally be startled by them. But I wonder if this whole fear part isn't socially conditioned, because then we tell
our stales we're supposed to be afraid of. Someone tells you, oh, that's a fear reaction as opposed to oh stop, what is that? Let's figure it out. So I don't know if a lot of people are truly afraid. I do believe being startled as natural.
Yes, I think that's why some people are more afraid of certain bugs too, because they're just faster, you.
Know, it's the startle, yes, and so for me and that's what I don't like them. They sneak up on me.
To h. Roaches are really fast, but like a pillbug, no one's ever like, ah, what is it? You know?
You know what. I've played with roly Police as a kid and I love them, right, so roll police I'm okay with.
Yeah, they're so slow. A lot of people and I will include this in aside, want to know what is up with the variation and the number of nipples looking at nipple conscious listeners Anthony Stoll, Elliot Warden, Jasmine MacLean, and first time question asker Yaki Juaquin, So.
Hold up even in pouch rats I have counted, like the females in my colony, some females have seven, some have eight, some have six. Oh huh, so because that's usually a very species specific thing, like that's one of the things we could say, oh, this species has this number of nipples, and that and that, and so we were trying to figure out how can we differentiate let's say, the species that live in West Africa vocius those that
lived in eastern and Central Africa. And some early one or two papers were saying, oh, the West African ones have six nipples and the East African ones have eight. Yeah, I can tell you for sure that is the jury still out. I have counted animals. I've caught myself from the exact same place, same species, and I've caught literally six, I've counted six to seven or eight nipples. I had some females with odd number of nipples.
Well, okay, marky Mark's got three and he's a dude. So what's up with dude nipples?
Third nipple? I'm not aware of that. You're not aware of that? Is it true? Do you have a third nipple? Monk? Yes? So you know just the carryovers? So like, so one there's some evolutionary biologists who say it is because males either historically may have been able to produce milk back in the day, like evolutionarily back in the day, and then it was lost, or it's just a physical vestige, so it's a vestage just left over, and so it's like, oh,
that's just part of the form. It doesn't mean anything, So you have all these just leftovers. H But nipples usually usually are a good indicator to the number of young an animal can support it at time.
So if you birth triplets out there and you're listening to this, my heart and at least one extra boob go out to you, I mean I would definitely donate them if I had extra nipples like Marky Mark and his funky bunch of three. And by the way, those are called supernumery nipples. Zach Efron is a member of the triple nipple Brigade. Harry Styles isn't because he has four nipples. Isn't that fun to know about? One in five hundred humans have bonus nipples. Most people think they're
just moles. So if you have a bumpy birthmark somewhere on your milk line aka between your armpit and your crotch take a closer look. Although surprise, nipples have shown up on backs, on faces, and, in the case of one twenty two year old Brazilian woman, the soul of her foot. She went to the doc turned two thousand and six to be like, Hey, is this thing I've had on the sole of my foot normal? And they were like, yeah, it's a normal nipple in a really
creative place. Can we take four thousand pictures of it?
It rules.
Also, if you're wondering why approximately half of humans have perpetually swollen breasts while all the other rodents and mammals don't need sports bras unless they're nursing, one theory is that as humans evolve to walk upright and our dairy are areas were less swollen in estrus, there needed to be an indicator of sexual maturity that was closer to eye level, although judging by the phrase my eyes are up here, buddy, perhaps face nipples would have been the
better adaptation. But back to the mammals, the doctor Lee studies, We're still talking about nipples, though, what about do male rodents have nipples?
They twice to male talks do, but they stay really really flat and flat to the body. Oh my god, that's amazing. So here's the other thing. In a lot of mammals, males have hair on their bellies, and that's one of the things four legged females lose. If they're hairy species, they'll lose that hair. That's that's also another indicator of We can sometimes use it for indicator of sex and reproductive condition is if her belly is bald or not, because if her belly's bald, that means she's
she's at the very least brooding. Some babies because they got to be able to get to those nips.
Oh, they gotta be able to find them.
And that and the babies rub it off because like in the process of nursing, babies are pretty rough on it on it underbelly.
M hm. You know when you see like an older guy who doesn't have any hair on his legs from like the knee sock area down. Yeah, just worn off, just worn off. Oh my god. Okay, questions are always ask the thing that you hate about being a mimologist. It can be as petty or as big as you want. It can be anything from email to cleaning glassware.
To I hate dealing with poop. I hate poop. Nothing ruins me more than having to deal with poop.
Do rodents have it? Smaller poops?
At least they are, But I just don't like dealing with the smears and the messages. Oh yeah, but that's where a lot of important information is. Nothing ficks me out and getting pooped on or stepping in it or smashing my finger into it. Ooh, I hate the poops.
Do you have to analyze rat poops?
I keep some for it. So I'm beginning. Actually that's one of the if I can use this as a commercial. I'm looking to form a long term relationship with the microbiomes microbiome biologist, uh huh, so that we're able to use that because they do a poop on me that I feel like that's just free data. Yeah, so collecting it and then asking some really good questions about that.
I had a scautologist on who is like doctor Poop they call her. She's at the Lincoln Zoo in Chicago. But she has thirteen freezers full of poops from every animal.
Yeah.
But if there's a if there's someone out there who's looking to do some studies on perhaps some rodents, of unusual size with poops of slightly unusual size.
Yeah, so so here's but here's one of the things. H I can't bring that over, Like because of international rules and laws, I can't take samples out of Tanzania.
Oh so what do you you have to do it there?
I either have to do it there. So I have some historical data from before they stopped it, so I have some old stuff, but I'm still working with local my species. But that's also kind of one of the things, like cultivating it and kind of like yeah, but so I would say my other thing I don't like about being a scientist in today's agent is it's sometimes hard to do some things based on a lot of the rules and risk. That's the other thing. Like there's rules
because there's a risk of bringing disease agents over. I get that, but then sometimes just not having a capacity to do everything because I haven't cultivated all the relationships that I would love to cultivate, not just here but also on the continent, you know, cultivating relationships with more continental scientists to do more research. Have it more of it just happened there.
Right, It's not like CSI, where you have the same person collecting blood swabs, is doing the footprint analysis and in our dreams. Yeah, now what's happening? Okay, what about your favorite thing about being a homologist?
The travel? I do science to travel. I grew up in my family we never get to go on family vacation, so travel was always a dream of mine. I just grew up working class for so my biggest dream was to grow up to be middle class. And so there are certain things that I was envious of, So like being able to travel and go places and back to those nature shows that I love. They just seem to always be all over the world, and so for me being able to travel to see a lot of things.
For myself, I love being able to travel and visit places.
Where are some places that you've gotten to go.
Most of my travels have been because of science, but so travel for research related things and learning. I've gone to I've been to Guyana. I love that. So I got to spend that took a tropical biology class and stayed in the bush Tanzania. So I've done research in these places. Other places I've been able to travel to talk about my research, So visiting so Mexico, Canada, Brazil, parts of Europe, so the Netherlands, Rand, the UK again, all places I couldn't have gone on my own. Dad.
Yeah, yeah, for real. That's why I work in TV too. I get to travel for that and that that was a big part of it. Like, yeah, I got to go to aasca for TV. I'm like, when would I get to go do that? Never?
You know?
So, yes, your passport must need extra pages, not lately.
These days, but I do usually get up right to the mark and I'm like, you're telling them, no, no, no, there's a space in there.
Birthday there, Oh my god. Oh And did you want to let anyone know about September thirteenth about exciting black homologists.
Yeah, we're super excited. So I'm joined by amazing colleagues, everyone from undergraduate students to fellow professionals and faculty members.
We're celebrating Black Mammalogists Week, celebrating not only the research that mammalogists have done historically and even today, but also kind of invigorating the spark of curiosity and interest in mammology and in science in general, just among everyone who's interested, letting folks know that there is expertise in mammology historically and contemporarily, and we're just excited to share our science
and our essentially our blooper reels. There's a lot of bloopers in doing science and memology in particular, and our goal is to inspire folks to become mimologists, to become scientists, and to just join this larger community of scientists. We're really excited to share this with everyone.
Do you have any of you any previews of any science bloopers that you're going to share.
I'm probably gonna share when I got bit by a pouchray? I got bit?
Oh yeah, were there antibiotics involved?
Probably should have been, Oh no, where did it buy you? But bit me on my left thumb. And that happened in twenty fifteen, and to this day, I still don't have feeling back in it.
Do you know where that pouched rat is?
You know what? It was? Funny? We were moments away from releasing her back to taking measurements. We were just getting some last many measurements and we're going to release her back in a while. So we released her back in a while. I want to imagine she's living her best life, oh and telling amazing stories about that one time she she took me down. I was physically taken down. It took three grown men to get that rat off of me.
Oh my gosh.
I physically went down with her.
Yeah.
So she's telling it amazing stories like this one time took out this human took her down. My god. Oh wow.
So every time you give a thumbs up in the left, there's a lot going on behind that.
It's a lot like if we were in person, Like you can actually see my thumb, Like I have divots in my thumb, like have little marks and divots.
Wow. Oh oh, that's a good story. People need to tune in to hear the whole thing. Oh amazing. This has been so great having you on. I just I feel like I'm such a fangirl. I've been like so nervous and excited to talk.
I don't know what to do when folks say that, because I'm always like, we're talking about this, you talk about me.
Yeah, So ask smart people stupid questions, because the answers may be sniffing out landmines or tuberculosis, or inspire you to make you count your nipples in the bathroom mirror at work. Now you can follow doctor Lee do it asap on Twitter and Instagram at d and Lee five and follow Black Mammalogists at BLK Mammalogists or at Black Mammalogists all spelled out dot com and those links are in the show notes. Plus there are more links up at Aliward dot com slash ologies slash mammalogy and we
are at Twitter and Instagram at ologies on both. I'm at ali Ward one l on Twitter and Instagram, so please do follow. There's more info up at aliward dot com slash Ologies. There are free transcripts for deaf and hard of hearing folks or anyone who wants a transcript up at Alleyward dot com slash ologies dash Extras. Huge thanks to Emily White, who is a professional transcriber who heads up the efforts to get them done alongside a
group of amazing ologites. And if you need transcripts for anything, email hire Emilywhite at gmail dot com because she is amazing. Thank you Caleb Patton for bleeping episodes for kiddos. Thank you to Aaron Talbert for admitting the ologies podcast Facebook group. Thank you Shannon Feltas and Bonnie Dutch. They manage merch at ologiesmerch dot com. There are shirts and hats and tots, advisors so much available. There even cozyfall blankets in ologies
print available at ologiesmerch dot com. Shannon and Bonnie also host the comedy podcast You Are That and They're Hilarious. Thank you Noel Dilworth for helping move all the scheduling because my brain is bad at it. Thank you to assistant editor aka the Butcher, Jared Sleeper, who hosts the mental health podcast My Good Bad Brain, and of course to lead mustache editor Stephen Ray Morris of the podcast Sea Jurassic Right, which is currently airing a back to
school series with dinosaurs scientists. So that is Sea Jurassic Right his podcast. Also Nick Thorburn of the band Islands wrote the theme music and performed it. And if you stick around all the way through the credits to the end of the episode, I tell you a secret. And this week the secret is that I read some hack that if you put dish soap on your shower floor and then baking soda and you let it sit a couple hours or overnight, and then you come back the
next day, your grout has never been cleaner. So I tried it, y'all. It works. Also be careful because it's slippery. Nobody needs to fall naked. I was on a date once s where a guy told me about how he passed out in the shower because he had hemorrhoids so bad and he cracked his head open, and I was like, this is a lot of information. He also mentioned that he had a fiance but he was planning on breaking up with her over the phone, and I was like, this is not going to go forward. My point is,
don't slip and fall in the shower. But sparkling grout, what a daymaker. Okay, enjoy Black Mammalogist Week and then get ready for a very creepy October. Not too creepy but pretty great. By Okay, we're by pacodermatology, homology or do zoology, lithology, Yeah, technology, meteorology, mettology, methology, seriology, elinology
Nothing but mammals.