Biomineralogy (SHELLS) with Robert Ulrich

Oh hey, it's your younger stepbrother who somehow is old enough to have a sleeve tattoo, and you don't even know when that happened. Ali Ward back with ology is another ology you never knew about, probably with a charming person you wish you knew earlier. Trust me, So shell's hard stuff, living chemistry. This episode was almost called conchology, but it's about so much more, as it turns out,

Rob Ulrich they or he pronouns.

Cool and you are a biomineralogist or a conchologist? Are concologists? Tell me?

Yeah, I would say either of those. I feel like concologists is probably more accurate to what I am now, but I feel like my goal is to branch out to be more general biomeneralogists.

I'd never heard biomineralogists until I met you at a summer pool party seasons and seasons ago. I know, I've been so excited about this for so long. Okay, so tell me a little bit about you. Did you grow up seaside where you landlocked in Nebraska? How did you end up studying things by the sea? And does it didn't even involve things by the sea. Are there inland things as well that are biomeneralogy related?

Yeah? So, biominerals are any minerals that are formed by living things, so that includes like our bones, or there are even little biominerals inside of the leaves of a lot of species of plants that act as essentially disco balls that help like scatter light more efficiently throughout the leaves, which is really cool. Yeah, but no, Unfortunately, I did not grow up by the Beach. I grew up in northern Virginia kind of just like in the middle of the woods. And I feel like I never really had

Did you follow him to Los Angeles? No?

Oh, my goodness. I was probably still in denial that I was gay at this point, and I was just like, he's just a really good friend, and so I was like, yeah, I totally want to try to go to the same college. And so we both ended up at Virginia Tech. And initially I was in chemical engineering, but then I realized that wasn't what I wanted to do because chemical engineering is a lot more application and process based and like

Rob asked some mentors how to pivot from the petroleum industry and chemical engineering, and many folks suggested that he try out the geosciences and geology, which was a great fit and also romantically convenient because it turns out he was focusing on chemistry.

Indeed, and that also happened to be what the boy was majoring in.

Did you guys ever go together?

No? He was? He not was he is is straight. I had just considered him a really good friend, he considered me a really good friend. And then in my second semester of college, I had finally had a chance to like explore things like on my own, and then I was like, oh, yeah, I am gay.

Cut to now. Rob is out of the closet, thriving, and after moving to la for grad school and looking for community, he founded Queer and trans in STEM to bring together LGBTQIA plus and other intersecting identities into science, technology, engineering, and math, and the group meets on Mondays at nine to ten pm Pacific through Zoom, because otherwise, he says, it's.

Like it's really hard to make friends, and so like I was trying to go really out of my way. I was driving to West Hollywood like every weekend and join the gay Kickball League because it wasn't at least like in my department, there weren't a lot of people that I knew were like queer gay I was. I was thinking about it, and I was like, I shouldn't have to drive all away, halfway across town just to meet queer people when I moved to Los Angeles.

Right, that's the most you know you're an Angelina When you're like I should not have to go from Westwood to West Hollywood at four pm. You're true Angelina.

It shouldn't even be a problem. It's only like what four miles.

Three hours distance?

Yeah, exactly.

So you were like, screw this.

I was like, screw this. I went to one of the events that is held by the UCLA LGBTQ Resource Center, walked in there and then I was like, there's nothing here for a queer trans people in science and engineering, and I kind of like stormed out of there. Really frustrated, and so then I just reached out to the director and I was like, Hey, I'm really interested in like forming this. How do I go about doing this? I don't really know how to do anything around here yet,

Oh that's amazing. And just think of how many people are now not having to battle traffic.

To play kickball exactly. We can all just like play video games online.

And what about getting into biomineralogy? Did you want to enter into it kind of through geosciences or through human bones or what was it that really hooked you.

I feel like I was trying to stay away from it at first because I feel like when I was in chemistry, I was always really fascinated by like crystals and like crystal growth in itself. And then when I was looking around for research opportunities, I ended up working for my faculty advisor eventually, and I was working with her PhD student at the time, Sebastian Mergelsburg, and the first project that they had me working on or helping out with was this project on lobsters. I was like,

And do lobsters just keep molting and growing and molting and growing? Is that why they were studying them?

Yes, yeah, they were trying to figure out whether or not the chemical composition of the lobster shell is like the same throughout the entire shell, or if it changes at different points of the lobster. We found that yes, it does change across the lobster, with the clause actually being more enriched in some certain elements compared to other parts of the lobster. And we drew connections from the differences in the chemical composition to the function of each

Oh Wease see various papers, including the twenty nineteen Frontiers in Earth Science publication Composition systematics in the exoskeleton of the American Lobster and implications for Malicostraca malachostraka side note refers to the forty thousand or so Shelley Boys, including crabs and lobsters and shrimp and wood lice and many other beautiful and bizarre little beasts with exoskeletons. But this lobster paper Rob worked on found that magnesium, phosphorus, and

I feel like it's a really small field, at least my exposure to it. There's a handful of people that study things that live in the oceans and create like calcium carbonate shells. And then there are medical fields where they're trying to mimic biology, for like bone regeneration, tissue regeneration.

One of the more compelling ones I found was titled quote calcium silicate coating derived from Portland cement as a treatment for hypersensitive denteen. Now Portland cement, you ask, is it locally harvested organic concrete? No, ma'am. It's a fine powder made by baking limestone and clay stuff and then adding gypsum. And it's so much worse for the environment than I realized previously. But apparently in dento nanotechnology circles

Yeah, most of my lab work so far has been taking powders of shells, so like someone else has thankfully already cultured a lot of the samples that I'm working with right now, and they've already been scraped off and or I guess they use a drill. They drilled off and like then put into vials for me, and then I just need to like weigh them out and like prepare them to be put into the mass spectrometer or

Oh side note, I have seen one because I had to google it. And first off, coco lilephores are these musically named single celled phytoplankton that live in the upper layers of the sea, and they're so cool. They make themselves a little house out of what looks like a bunch of starched lacy doilies or paper plates layered over a beach ball, These round things with scales all over them, and at their largest they are the size of the

And so I maintain our cultures by just going into the lab, feeding them every once in a while, by putting them in some new seawater media, and then yeah, doing some experiments with that. Also have another project that I'm really excited about where we're hopefully going to be planting like different types of fiddle leaf trees. So maybe I'll be able to get to work in a greenhouse soon.

Ooh, and fiddle leaf trees those are the ones that people have in their house. But they kill a lot, right, Yes, Okay, I can't believe I get to actually ask someone about this, But why are they hard to keep alive? Because I see them in beautiful Instagram interior design photos, and I say, how long will it take me to kill them?

I feel like people maybe probably overwater them, or like I feel like it's either they pay too much attention to it or they pay too little attention to it. But unfortunately, I'm not too much of a plant scientist. I just am able to keep plants alive somehow. I always just tell people to stick your finger in the dirt and if it's dry, it probably needs to be watered.

It's very scientific talktor side note, I tried to look up some fiddle leaf tips because I knew some of you out there are struggling, and apparently they like a lot of bright indirect light. And you should dust the leaves often. And yes, stick your little finger in the dirt and water it if it's dry. That's what you do,

Of Yeah, the most predominant biomineral is are made up of calcium carbonate, and then I would say maybe the second most common are calcium phosphate, which would be like bones and like teeth, and then maybe the third would be silicate minerals. And then at the end that you probably have the more complicated ones. They have iron in them though, and they're like made by bacteria.

Ooh, and when it comes to shells, this is a very basic question, But I don't understand how something that's like a slimy, little flaccid little tongue is making something that's harder than my bones. Maybe what where is it coming from? Where they getting this calcium, Where are the secreting it? How are these shells even made?

Yeah, so eye valves they secrete their shells from this organ they have called the mantle. And so the organ it's like lined with these epithelial cells that are what

Rob says that crystalline structures form out of these minerals plus a mix of some acidic proteins from the animal to make these biomineral structures of varying hardness and uses that.

Da and then it turns into like its final form.

And is it hard as soon as it comes out? Or is it like plaster of Paris? And how can something that's in the seed dry? I don't get any of it so exciting.

I wouldn't say it's necessarily hard, because what they're finding more and more evidence for is like this intermediate mineral phase called a morphous calcium carbonate. It's sort of counterintuitive because you don't think of minerals as being amorphous because one of the definitions of the minerals that has a crystalline structure, it's this like a morphous mineral that seems to be what gets deposited and then that's what eventually transforms. It seems like it doesn't want the water like as

Okay, So spirals is that a common thing with a lot of shells? Why are some like two little clappy plates like a clam or a muscle, and others are like this incredible beautiful Fibonacci spiral.

Yeah, So the shape has to do a lot with the function of it, and so things like the notylloids and stuff, they have this spiral shape that within it has these different chambers that allow it to change the animal's buoyancy so it can move up and down the water column. And then the different like bivalves, like the different clams and muscles and oysters. Their shape is very

Oh so when you're looking at a spiral, you're looking maybe at their bathing suit area's shape exact.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, And most of the gastropod they're chiral, so they all swirl in like this clockwise pattern because it matches the shape of their reproductive organs. That's why they can only mate with things of the same handedness or the same rotation. And that's why the sad like Jeremy the snail of the left handed snails, they can't reproduce, and.

So that is part of just sexual selection where they tend to be like okay, well couldn't couldn't find anyone, So I guess I'm just out out of the game. Is that how that goes?

Yeah, it's really sad, and it's like surprising how recent, how new this research is that actually identified the gene that controls it. It came out like last year where they actually identified the gene and they noticed that like, oh, things that lack this gene are the ones that's like spiral counterclockwise so it's just mutation and it's sad.

Oh, Jeremy, I looked it up, and this left hand or sinisterrel snail could not get it on with any other snail unless it too was a beautiful backwards mutant. And in a tribute to horny souls everywhere the world found him two other lefty snails to fall in love with. All three were put in a love nest enclosure, and that two others mated with each other and made tons of babies. Well, Jeremy watched from the sidelines before he died in twenty seventeen. But don't cry yet. Researchers realized

Yeah, they're adding to it at the little end. That's like the point at which things are growing outward.

So the snails hatch from an egg and they have a proto counch, which is like a colorless little shell that hardens with more calcium which they have to get from eating their egg shell, kind of like snacking on the placenta that you just slid out of. It's resourceful. Now, as a snail grows, the teeny tiny baby whirl stays in the center and it keeps making more new shell at the aperture at the opening end, which hardens and crystallizes as it grows. Okay, and crystals. You love crystals.

Yeah, smash smash it up a bit, look at it, like at it under like a really really strong microscope. You'll see the crystals.

How are the crystals forming? Because we know that an ice cube is a crystal, right, we like or snowflake is also a crystal, like six sided. What is it about calcium carbonator or these other minerals that allow it to make that crystalline structure.

Yeah, it's what's available it's like based on what they have around them, it's what they can make the most easily. When they are putting these chemicals into the space, they're really probably they're not like intentionally doing it, like we don't think about us our ourselves, like making our bones. But there is something they're like guiding the crystals into being formed and more impressively formed into like these like wild beautiful shapes that we see.

And I mean, okay, favorite shells. Do you have some that stick in your mind? Are you like a shell person as it is? Are you a person who's like, ugh, I got a keep some on a bookshelf or are you strictly like when it's powdered and under a microscope then I care? Or do you marvel over them?

I marvel over them. But when I moved, since I was moving across the country, I had the lead of like my like rock and mineral collection with my parents at their house, and I was like, oh no, so I sadly like, don't I don't have any? But yeah, I think I'm always going to be fascinated by things that like nature can create, especially with how like beautiful shells can be. And it's kind of like almost for no rea, like they do it for function, and then

I mean, when I think about biomimicry and how much we borrow from nature, I always think, you know, we're on iPhone eleven or twelve or something. But for every animal, they've had so many iterations. Every generation is an iteration, and they've had millions and millions, millions over years. So like, imagine an iPhone thirty five million, like it's gonna be a great iPhone, Like it's gonna be advanced. So of course they've figured they've figured it out based on like

You can ask me whatever you want.

Okay, hear that, whatever I fricking want, which is what you want patrons who submitted questions. But first we donate to a charity of the biomeneralogists choosing and this week it's directed toward the Center for Diverse Leadership in Science and c d LS at UCLA was founded by Professor Aradna Tapati and is an initiative to bring people from diverse backgrounds into science, and a donation to them was

I guess. In short, yeah, like anything where you're removing a material from the natural ecosystem probably isn't the best for the environment. I'm pretty sure that hermit crab's already like very it's not their market for homes, and so removing more potential homes for them is probably not the best. But they're They're also not the only people who use old shells. There are other organisms that use old shells to like weigh themselves down or even like use them

Did I look it up? Of course? Did it deliver also? Of course? Okay. So Reddit user vanilla Bean fifty thirteen has an aquarium, and after seeing their urchins pick up shells or bits of coral and damaging the coral doing it, they decided to three D print them some hats to use instead, so you can see the links on my website if you need to look up a spiky a live cousheball wearing a witch hat, which you do. And apparently scientists think they do that because it makes them

Yeah, I feel like I feel it. Yeah, I mean they have a video of it, right.

So we happened to discuss this recently in an aphrology episode about kidneys, because one kidney donation might help ten other people meet their match rather than their maker. So yes, David Attenborough narrated it beautifully. I think about it way too much. I think people should do it with houses. Maybe I'm just saying a lot of people wanted to know.

I would hope so. I'd hope that they have some sort of reflection where they look in whatever they can use as a mirror and are like, yes, you are beautiful, you are gorgeous, you are powerful. But that's probably not the case that I but yeah, so Mother Pearl or Maker and a cre It's beautiful because of how the light refracts because it's usually made up of they're like prismatic tablets almost, and the way that they're stacked bend the light and the way that makes it look like

Ooo, so ductyle side note means that it can be formed into shapes without losing its strength and kind of like an iridescent lego set. Mother of pearl has a brick and mortar structure to it, the bricks being a ragonite, which is another form of calcium carbonate, and the mortar what is it, thanks for asking, Well, it's elasticky biopolymers, kind of like a silky glue that holds the ragonite together.

Yes, function and then fashion, very much like my closet. And the more surprising bit is that even though it looks completely different to the outside of the shell, at the base level, it's all made up of the same stuff. It's all calcium carbonate. It's just in a different crystal structure, or it's like arranged in a different orientation.

Ah, I had no idea. Sarah Kulag wants to know. Is marceald the Shell the cutest example of a fictional shell creature? Yes, that I used. It's time I skis to my car the hair. Guess what my skis are toe nails from the man?

Uh? I think? So yeah, Like that's that's a throwback. Like I haven't thought about Marsala Shell in I don't even know how long.

Can I tell you something? I watched Marcella Shell three days ago.

What that show is like at least ten years old.

I know, but I just remember now she was like, I get a what ice ski on toenail, and I liked to listen to it again. It always gets me right in the heart. Helen's Skelton wants to know what is the most ridiculous shell you have seen? Like one that you look at and think, why an evolutionary history did this squishy thing feel the need to create this elaborate thing.

Well, there's this one Xenophora. It's called the carrier shell. It doesn't make sense. It's just like, why did this shell of this snail decide at some point in its history that it was going to pick up and meld with other shells as it grows? And so it just looks like this spiral that has other random shells sticking out of it, and it.

Just kind of picks it up as it goes, like dang, I mean, that's good for it. It's like that guy at the party that sees half empty beers and is like, sure, man, why not? Okay, So I had never heard of these, but xenomorph's etymology means bearing foreigners because they pick up objects like pebbles and other shells, sometimes bottle caps, and they cement them to themselves for camouflage or in deeper waters. Scientists think it might help them from getting sucked into

What are It's one of those words I've never read out loud.

I've never seen it before. But they're so cool. How do they grow as well as the shell? What is is it a lid? What are they?

Yeah, they are lids or like trapdoors. They're made of the same stuff as the shell, and they're just one of the ways that the organisms living inside of the shell can protect themselves from predators because it's like a little trap door that they can retract and close themselves into Goodbye, and they're yeah, they're just little lids for these little shell pots.

Well that's so cute.

Okay.

A lot of people, a lot of people wanted to know can you hear the ocean in shells? What makes them sound like the ocean? Elizabeth Ross says, I heard that the sound is created by blood moving in our own ears being echoed by the shell. Do people ask this of you when you tell them you study shells.

I feel like nobody ever asks me anything. I would love more questions about shells all the time, and I really want to say yes, because it sounds very magical. But the answer is no, unfortunately, And it's also not

So flim flam busted. The noise that you hear from shells has a name. It's called seashell resonance, but that ambient amplification would also work with like an empty Starbucks cup. So I'm sorry to have just broken your heart. Curious Land mermaids including Christi Charter, Rachel Moore, Elizabeth Ross, Kate Rampy, Kelly Windsor Teaking Andrews, Megan Jounts, Olivia Meyer, and Delaneo Pelt But on the notes of myths and thrumbing blood in your ears, Remnant Muse posted how do you feel

Yeah, as most of the listeners probably know, the ocean is becoming more acidic and temperature of the ocean is increasing, and so this, I guess, sort of predictably sort of makes it a lot harder for living things that precipitate minerals to make their minerals. It affects the animals in different ways because they all live in different ways. So it's not necessarily as direct as like, oh, the shells

What types of shellfish or mollusks are having the hardest time right now?

Hm? I feel like it's any organism that doesn't have as much control over its internal chemistry, like some organisms control more strongly than others. The composition of that fluid pocket that's traveling through the shell making organ and so if it's something that has a very high level of control over that, like corals or lobsters, they tend to have a bit more resistance when it comes to be

They're a little bit less complex of an organism.

Uh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that's one way of putting it.

Daisy Goldstein Cross wants to know. Please talk about chalk. Also, opals are opals shell.

Like You could argue that they look kind of like naked, but they're not. They are not shells. Okay, good, Yeah, they are amorphous silica minerals that are form more like bia sedimentation.

Oh, I did not know that. I understand that they are less hardy as a gem, like they're more prone flaking than some other gems.

Uh yeah, probably because it's a MorphOS not as hard.

Okay, And what about chalk. Chalk is a lot of dead animals.

Yes, chalk is a lot of dead Coco lithophores. Actually, so the old skeletons of tons and tons of these algae that have sunk to the bottom of an ocean and piled up very high.

Wow, And do you think if you're vegan, using chalk should be not something you do. Are they plants or are they animals?

They are plants. There are a species of algae.

Yeah, okay, got it, got it, got it. So they're not dead animals, they're dead plants. That's interesting. Okay, listen, I heard skeletons. I thought of bags of flesh. Okay, my bad. A few people, Edward Rice, Sakarivas and Alex Wager all wanted to know about coqina. Could you talk

I definitely remember it from flasts. I've never imagined it being able to be something that could make up entire buildings. Those buildings must be beautiful.

So kokina is the material composed of shells all stuck together by the calcium carbonate that dissolved over time and then restuck. And I had never seen this, but I just gazed at pictures and it looks kind of like a rice crispy treat made with frosted flakes only its shells.

But it must be very similar to chalk in a way where it's like it's all these organisms that have percipiated shells and they've died, and so these shells have sunk to the bottom of the ocean and created this layer of sediment that's just crushed up old shells, but they haven't been pulverized enough to where they're super sandy. It's still very obviously like crushed up shells glued together by other forms of calcium carbonate like limestone.

Ooh and seen it.

Oh it's beautiful.

And sarah Ma's first time question asker such a good question. How are shells different from exoskeletons? And do crabs have shells or do they have exoskeletons?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, So I think it completely depends on the exoskeleton that you're talking about. I would argue that probably that all shells are exoskeletons, but not all exoskeletons are shells. But yes, crabs do have an exoskeleton, and yes it is a shell. I guess this also goes back to the lobster question, where it's like, oh, these arthropods are crustaceans. They're molting, and at least in the case of the lobster, every time it molts, it's shedding

That is cool. I had no idea. I thought they were just like, okay by now that was so expensive, just like leaving leaving like an audi by the side of the road. That's good to know. I feel less bad for them. Speaking of feeling bad, Sarah Culigan Monica both had questions similar. Sarah says, I feel like this is unlikely, but I can't help. But wonder is there evidence of microplastics somehow now appearing in shells or affecting shell development?

Just can't be good. Hmmm. I don't know if they've found them in like within the shell itself. I know that the organisms are like they are getting into like the soft parts of the organisms, like the shellfish we're eating and stuff, But I don't know about them actually

No, I don't like that very much at all. Please see the April twenty twenty paper Microplastics disrupt Hermit Crab shell selection and then go whimper into your hands.

Yeah, sad, I.

Want to pet one softly on the head. It does not want that. Kelly Drive had a great question can the chemical composition of shells be utilized to identify where they were developed globally? Like can we look at a shell and know it was created in Australia because of its chemistry?

Maybe not that specifically. Like that's a really great question, and that's very aligned with what some other people in my lab do. I don't know if we'd be able to pinpoint like where on the globe exactly, but we would definitely be able to get a lot of information of the type of environment that it grew in.

Okay, along those lines, Julie Behert wants to know, and I'm going to read it as as it's written. It goes, have we found flushed man made drugs in shells? Frowny face?

Not that I know of.

They're not like jacked on steroids or on birth control bills.

Yeah, but maybe they have their own substances that they like to use.

Perhaps just party shells. Vince Alasha asks why are Florida beaches covered in shells? So many cuts in my feet and then there's four exclamation points.

Yeah, it's actually the shape of Florida and like the surrounding bits of lander islands that causes that to happen. A lot of the islands run parallel to Florida, and so they're like aligned with the water currents running around Florida itself. However, beaches like Santa bell I think that it starts with an s. It's actually perpendicular and so it sort of catches all the shells that come out of that current, and that's why it has so many more shells and a lot of other beaches.

Oh okay, So do you think if you were to find a shell from someplace in Florida and there were a lot of them, it would be okay to take home? Or is it still leave them on the beach?

I think to be safe leave them on the beach. But I'm sure if you take one it's like fine, definitely, not if they're alive or but if they're like fully still like formed and like together, you probably should leave them, okay.

Seguity Dana asks what determines the color of a shell? Like what makes it white or purple? And does the same color have a different cause in different species.

Yeah, that's a really.

Like purple mollusk shells and stuff. Any idea what causes it?

Yeah, So a lot of shells have this the like final outermost layer is this organic covering sort of like a skin almost, and that's what carries the pigment or whatever makes the pigment. And usually what determines the color is similar to the shape, where it's it's about function and trying to camouflage with its surroundings. And I know that some species of bivalves are actually able to change their color with the environment where others can't.

Let's say, a certain kind of muscle shell is usually purple on the inside. If there's a purple seashell out of the Bahamas, is it kind of the same the same thing that's making the same color? Oh?

Yeah, yes, it's usually it's probably the same thing going on. And it's also interesting that it's so much more function over genetics that it really depends a lot more on like the local environment of the shell rather than it being related like closely related to other species of shell.

Wow, And that is that partly just because that's what it's pulling out of the environment to make it.

Yeah, it's partially probably like what it's playing out of the environment, but also just like what it needs. We're probably wearing a lot more shorts and T shirts in La than up in Washington.

True and side note, These lilac to violet marbley colored shells of the Northeast coast Quahaug clams are used to make what some indigenous nations call wampum beats, strung together in various patterns with these creamy white shelled beads of the welk stale and the species of clam is called

Yeah, they're not from worms, but they are from these carnivorous nails. Usually it's like this type of welk. I think it's called the dog welk. And what it does is it goes up to these clams and it uses its tongue, which is like a tongue in like quotes. It's more of a drill, and it drills into these shells to try to get into the soft, tasty, gooey, you know, deliciousness that's inside the shell. Once it makes that hole, it turns the inside until it can slurp.

Up like oh, what a dick just piercing it like a capri son. Of course, it's okay, snail, you gotta eat. I understand you're not a dick. I was projecting, okay. Mollie Johnson has a style question uh seconded by Aaron Ryan. Molly asks why are dusty shells a thing in suburban beach themed bathrooms and how do we make people stop putting them there and just enjoy them on the beach? And Aaron Ryan says, I second this question, and it's precise wording. Thoughts on dusty bathroom shells?

What do they mean by dusty?

You know, you just you got a bowl of shells?

Yeah, I don't know, I don't know what the what is up with that? I guess it's people trying to you know, you're trying to transport yourself to where you want to be, and so they put the shells in the bathroom.

It's very true. I am going to see if I can trace it back to like a two thousand and four Martha Stewart edition of Beach Homes. Jude Kenny has an important scientific question. Wants to know can I use a conch to summon animals to do my bidding?

I wish that would be great.

It would be doing some of your lab work. I'm sure we're that trip.

Yeah, I would. I would just you know, I would buy one of those little microphones that people use to interview their cats, and I would go down there and interview them. That would make my life so much easier, just be like, how how do you do this?

Have you ever blown into a conch? No?

I haven't.

It's pretty transformative, I have to say.

Is it easy? Is it like just like a trumpet you like do anything?

Oh? Yeah, it's like a trumpet. And it really does make you feel that there's just elk that're gonna start filtering down and like a raccoon's gonna peep its head out and be like, my queen. Maybe one day you'll get to you'll get to.

It's very I just want to feel powerful. I don't know, maybe maybe I'll try to find a consholl before my my defense.

Any myths that you really want to bust about shells.

Myths not that I can really think of. Oh oh oh, pearls. Pearls are very interesting. I always thought that it was that pearls were like this like self defense mechanism that like different bivalves had to like protect themselves, and it's like foreign, foreign particles like sand or something entering into

Okay, so it's just a mistake. And anyone who's been seating pearls to try to make more pearls, is that just not effective.

It probably helps because it provides a site of like nucleation for crystal growth, So probably I would I would probably argue that maybe seeding them does help, but it's not the main reason that natural pearls form.

Wow, have you ever gone down any of those rabbit holes? Watching people who open pearl muscles at home and do haul videos?

I really should, but like seeing people shell stuff makes me really anxious, like, oh my god, oysters. Oh no, I'm never eating oysters. If the texture wasn't enough, if the texture wasn't enough, I'm shelling them. Scares me. I do not want to stab my hand. The onliest way I want to see an oyster is like deep fried in like on top of a devil deg you.

I like them canned and smoked. It look like they look like toad turns, but I prefer them that way. But when they're when they're raw and slippery. I'm kind of like, if the table orders them, I'll have one to be polite. But then I'm always the most generous person that's like, no, no, no, you have the last five.

Yeah, you, it's all it's it's for you. I got this for you.

Also, can I tell you that I just read an article about a man who got a bacterial infection from cracking open oysters and got an open wound on his hand and almost died. But good news, he survived. But the newspaper article detailing his ordeal chose the headline aweshucks, how oysters gave one man a rare bacterial infection.

Wow.

On the topic of things that are the worst okay, questions, things about your job that suck worse than oysters? What is the worst part about being a biomederalogist slash concologist slash conchologist.

I guess, in my opinion, the least fun thing is probably for me. I think it's the lab work itself. I don't think I'm made for doing like sitting in a lab for hours. I very much enjoy, at least enjoy more the side of science where it's I've gotten the data, and like I'm at the point of like trying to figure out like what it means and like writing about it and reading about it and then like sharing that. I don't know if I actually like doing the stuff leading up to that as much.

So. Some people like collecting the food, some like cooking it up. Different scientists like different parts of the process. What about the thing that you love the most about it.

The friends we've made along the way. But I guess, like seriously, I think the thing I enjoy the most about, just like I guess life and working in general, is being able to like mentor more junior students, because I work with a lot of undergraduates, and like being able to work with them is like such a great experience. I love getting to like teach them how to do the lab stuff and then having them do the lab stuff.

Is there anything that you wish you knew, you know growing up that or any advice you would give to someone who maybe had yet to go through that kind of journey of discovering what they're into, either personally or professionally.

I would say, just like, I don't know, do I wish I knew what things to like look for, like what things to look up. So I grew up like in a like a religious household and so and then I also went to a like religious private school from kindergarten to eighth grade, and so I feel like growing up I was very like sheltered in many many ways because I also didn't live in like a neighborhood where

I mean, I can tell you asking people about their jobs is not as hard as it looks. People. It's very easy to ask people about what they like. And I think it's great to reach out to people, especially if you think you might be interested in the field.

Worst thing is that they don't respond, Like, no one's going to respond to you and be like, how.

How dare you like the field I'm in?

How dare you appreciate me the goal?

Well, I appreciate you so much.

I appreciate you too. I still remember when I was like really mad at you when we met, because I was like, you walked in, you were like oh, Like I was like, I was like, okay, so here's this like like smart, funny, like a gorgeous individual walking in. I'm like laying down on this blanket, like playing with a kid, like I guess yeah it was. He was Roquel's kid. I was like playing with this like pump

I had no idea you would know.

I remember being like I binged every episode.

Well, that's amazing.

I can't believe.

I still can't believe anyone listens to it because I'm just you know, I'm sitting here recording it next to my dirty dog. The course to me that there are people on the other side that actually would want to listen to it. I feel like I just people do it out of guilt or something. But I was so excited. I was like, You've been on my list of index cards as an interview I've wanted to do for so long. I keep an index card the deck of ones I want.

To get to.

So it's So I'm so glad that we finally reconnected because I'm like, ah.

I feel like it's been the real the real purpose of me going through grad school and getting my PhD is just preparing for this moment.

I hope this was easier than your qualls.

Oh, it was definitely less stressful and more fun.

So don't clam up ask shell of smart people basic or acidic questions because they are charming and informative. And now you were friends. So you can learn more about Rob Ulrick at Robertulrich dot com. You can follow him at Robert and Ulrich on Twitter or Queer's in Stem. Also of course on Instagram at biomineralogist. He's got the handle, He's got the jobs. So we also have our first ever live show. There's a link in the show notes.