Oh hey, it's that classroom desk chair that cracks your back perfectly. This is ali word, This is ologies. This is a show in which we cover one ology every episode. And friends, I know that you love donkeys already because we truly got like a tidal wave of questions for this one and happened to chat with the loveliest donkey expert we could find. This is such a chill conversation and cuddly and calming and informative. It was like sitting on a covered porch with a tea and a plate
of cookies. You just keep eating while they talked about interesting donkey facts. And this ologist is the director of research and operational support at the nonprofit the Donkey Sanctuary, and it's been there for over two decades, researching, caring for, and advocating for donkeys. They're an author on dozens of donkey and mule research papers, as well as having a micro biological background, which we talk about. They were just made for this work and they love it. So we'll
meet them in a minute. But thank you first to patrons of the show who make it possible. You two can join for as little as a dollar a month, and for free We also have shorter kid friends the episodes of ologies in their own feed. They're called Somologies sm l O g I S found wherever you get your podcasts Ologies Merch is available for your body at ologiesmerch dot com. And you can always support ologies by just leaving us a review, which helps so much it gets to show up in the charts and gets it
seen each week. I kick this off by reading a recent one such as this from Lori two four seven four, who callologies charming, educational, and highly addictive. Treat yourself to an engaging conversation with experts at a level that doesn't belittle you or leave you lost in jargon. Also right amount of swearing. I appreciate that, and that is affirming. Okay. Asinology it comes from the Latin word asinus. It means ass, which means donkey. Donkey itself may come from an old
word meaning dull brown, but that's been debated. But ass, as in your ass is gonna love. This episode came much later, and that was derived from the British arse, which came from a word for tail, a rump. We do also discuss rumps in this episode. I think you'll appreciate it, So take a long drink of water, saddle up for big ears, milky baths, Emperor gossip, squats for donkey kicks. How much weight can a beast of burden bear? Mule? Genetics, zoos sexism, How to care for a donkey? Where to
pet a donkey? What their noises mean? And heads up, we do have donkey noises in here, so do not be startled. They're happy donkeys as well as what a donkey eats? What's up with those teeth? Donkeys on film? And busting so much flimflam with researcher director of research and operational support and nonprofit The Donkey Sanctuary, Friend to Donkeys Worldwide and acidologist doctor Faith Burden.
Faith button and she, huh.
You are are the way in the UK?
Yes?
Indeed, where exactly are donkeys? Do you know where are they from from?
Yeah? So the donkey's ancestor is actually from East Africa, So the mountains and deserts of Ethiopia, Eritrea, Sudan, So a long long way away from the UK or the US.
How long have they been kind of all over the world? At what point did people start saying donkeys I can get some donkeys over here.
So donkeys were first domesticated about seven thousand years ago we think in East Africa, and they then slowly made their way up to Egypt, where they were a really important part of Egyptian ancient society. And from there they gradually spread across the world, particularly helped both by the Romans but also various explorers. So donkeys made their way
to the America's in about the fifteenth century. So actually their history with us is quite recent, but it all began in the deserts and mountains of East Africa.
So, yes, Equus asinus was domesticated from the wild African ass and it's a stunning creature with this strong jaw, it's got a stout frame, and this really beautiful pewter colored velveteen looking coat. And yes, donkeys have been our friends and tools for millennia. According to researchers of the twenty twenty two paper the Genomic History and Global Expansion of Domestic Donkeys in the Journal Science, domesticated in Africa
went all around, came back to Africa. But before donkeys made that world tour genetically, in.
Ancient Egypt, donkeys were originally used for meat and milk. Oh, and then they started to become a working animal, but very much a well respected ceremonial animal.
Oh.
So you actually can find a number of donkey skeletons that were buried along very high ranking noble people. So it was a real surprise when they opened up a tomb not long ago that was dedicated I believe to a cyrus, and in one of the king's tombs next door were donkey skeletons. So in Egypt, the donkey was very much associated with wealth and nobility and was a really respected and rivid animal.
Okay, so there's at least all of you who want more in fine this, so please see the twenty twenty four paper Donkey's Genies and Demons Fantastical Creatures in Ancient Egyptian ritual Texts and Funery Assemblages, which notes that the donkey was depicted in ancient tomb scenes since the Old Kingdom, which was roughly five thousand years ago, and it represented an ambivalent creature that could either assist in the nately journey of the ancient sun god or it could be
a malevolent force. It could go either way, like a cat or something that loves you and then tries to kill you. You mentioned that from the deserts. Is that why they have such big years like athena farct kind.
Of yeah, really absolutely, So the donkey is adapted. Its ancestor is a desert dwelling animal, so it has lots and lots of adaptations, particularly the years, that's what we
all notice. So they help not only to dissipate heat, but they're also fantastic for communication over really large expanses because in the ancestors natural environment, donkeys don't live in hurtz so unlike horses, where we all know that horses like to gather in hurts, the donkey's' ancestors live either alone or in very very small groups, so they need to communicate. And that's why the donkey's bray is so amazing. Travels for kilometers, but the years really important to.
We're going to communicate to you more about their communication in a bit, but first let's crunch some numbers. You now have a donkey sanctuary. You are the mother to donkeys, if you will.
I'm a mom, mama, sida.
How many donkeys are in your care?
So in the Donkey Sanctuary's care, we have six thousand two hundred donkeys that are in our ownership. About four thousand of those are in our direct care, and then we've got two thousand that live out in wonderful guardian homes that look after them in private homes. So we have thousands of donkeys. They're all amazing and it's such a privilege to work with them and care for them.
So where are their origins? Typically, do you take in a lot of working donkeys that are retired or maybe that had been mistreated. I know that donkey welfare is like the cornerstone of your life, that's right, and so are a lot of your donkeys.
From a complete mix. So, sadly, we still see lots of cases of neglect. So we still take in animals that have been abandoned or have been treated very badly. We also taking animals that have got significant behavioral issues that need rehabilitation, medical issues, and sadly we do see the issue of donkeys outliving their owners. So donkeys live a very long time, really, they can live into their thirties, and unfortunately sometimes their human careers can't look after them
for their life. So we're trying to help people to understand that a donkey's lifetime is long and it's a big commitment, so we sometimes step in in those circumstances. But certainly in Europe there are not that many working donkeys anymore, sometimes in tourism, sometimes in small scale agriculture, but most of the donkeys that come into our sanctuaries at least will have been companions and pets. But it's very different to the work that we do internationally with working donkeys.
Yeah, what is the difference. There are there a lot of working donkeys that it may be not treated fairly or not well kept.
I mean, the vast majority of donkeys in the world are working animals that live in the global South. So those donkeys are essential to the livelihoods of the people that rely on them, so very commonly found in Sub Saharan Africa, South Asia, parts of Central and southern America, and those donkeys will be engaged in all kinds of household activities and sometimes, sadly, we do see donkeys that
need help. That's often because of a lack of information or very often that the owner and the family are struggling for income themselves. They're living tough lives as well as their donkeys. So it's often about helping provide support and education, helping with basic things like footcare and making sure a cart works well for a donkey, But those animals are an absolute lifeline for those families.
Okay, just a little recap. Donkeys have been domesticated for around seven thousand years. They are not big party herd animals, and they are a huge part of economies around the world. But right now, donkey theft is an issue, and up to four point eight million donkeys a year die from harvesting hides. To make this surprized herbal medicine out of donkey gelatin, and Faith and the Donkey Sanctuary have been working on researching that and supporting legislation to protect these animals.
But on a brighter note, you shall also know that in some alpine regions, when baby lambs can't make it down a mountain into the lowland pastures, the shepherds have donkey nannies or mule nannies, and a mule or a donkey will wear like a pocketed smock and they'll carry the lambs down the mountain like if you had cargo pants stuffed with baby bunnies to get them to safety. It's a beautiful thing. How did you intersect your life
with donkeys? Did you have a pet donkey? And then you're like, I'm in love with the donkeys because they're so lovable.
They are lovable, and I've always loved animals from the moment I was big enough to understand what they were. But I visited the Donkey Sanctuary when I was seven, oh, and I fell in love with the Donkey Sanctuary and their donkeys. But my life then took on a different path, and I never dreamed i'd worked with donkeys, but many years past, and I ended up then spending some time in America, in Tennessee, of all places, working with mules
and fell in love with them as well. And then in my early mid twenties, I saw a job and the rest is history. So that's well over twenty years ago now, so it's been a lifelong addiction to donkeys.
I just realized your last name is Burden and they are called Visa Burden. Did that must people must talk to you about that all the time they do.
It was obviously a complete coincidence, But yeah, isn't it funny? Vista Burden? And I think it's called nominative determinism, And of course donkeys are really linked with religion as well. So my first name faith is somewhat linked to But I just think it was destined to be from being that seven year old that fell in love with some long ears and you know a place of wonder, and yeah, I could never change my name, No, keep it forever.
So yes, Egwards and donkeys have been the animals that humans he al for heavy work for thousands of years. And do remember when some folks cite the Bible as fact, like in a political context, that the Bible does contain
a passage about a talking donkey. So setting aside the fact that a donkey started talking from a narrative standpoint, though, this biblical passage is about the abuse and exploitation of those less fortunate, and God saying to this donkey's owner, who's flogging it, like, you'll be nicer to that donkey. You're being a dick. So yeah, just a casual talking donkey reference, but also defending the downtrodden who knew that
was in there? And so did you ever dream that you would be kind of you know, the head of the donkeys?
No, no, never, never, But what a wonderful place to find yourself. I'm a scientist by training. I've always been interested in the natural world and how it all works, So the science part of what I do is really important, and certainly that was always my main name, was to help people to understand donkeys and what they need from us.
Yeah, what kind of science were you studying or what's your science background.
I was a microbiologist and a virologist, So originally my PhD was looking at infectious diseases that were transferred between people and animals. But I got a little bit tired of lab work and white coats and centrifuges became a bit tiresome, so I decided to take some time out and go and see what donkeys had to offer.
And she has a lot to offer Donkeys clearly, with over fifty published papers, including hits such as Objective Assessment of Chronic Pain and Donkeys using the Donkey Chronic Pain Scale and belief in animal sentience and effective owner attitudes are linked to positive working ECUAD welfare across six countries and the welfare and access to veterinary health services of mules working in the mountain trails of Nepal. Also, she's
got papers about the donkey skin trade. She knows her donkey stuff on a global level and on a micro level.
And a lot of my early work with the Donkey Sanctuary was looking at infectious diseases, parasitology, nutrition, so it drew on much of my background. But then really this sort of behavior and welfare science overtook and as they say, the rest is history.
Well, you mentioned how misunderstood donkeys are, and babe, that's why we got you here.
Amazing.
Let's talk donkey myths because so many people are like, I know you're or a Shrek, but no idea what they're really like, or they just know them as Beisa burden. So what's like some big flimplam that you have to bust as a doctor.
Donkey donkeys are stubborn or stupid. We've all heard those kicks like a mule or stubborn as a donkey. Donkeys are not stupid, and anyone that thinks donkey stupid has simply been outwitted by them. That's what normally happens. So we always judge donkeys by what we know about horses. We're all brought up with Western films and horses in battle,
and they're fast and incredibly expressive animals, aren't they. And then we think the donkey is like a small horse with big ears, and we can't understand why it doesn't go when we ask it to. We can't understand why it says no. And actually donkeys don't run away from problems. That's part of their evolutionary background. Donkeys will stand and they will consider what's in front of them, so they will think, is it in my best interest to run away?
And I might do that, But more often what happens is they're either freeze or they fight, which again is that whole kind of misconception that donkeys can be quite feisty. They can kick, you know, it's absolutely natural behavior for
the species that they are. They're calm, they're thoughtful, and if you wanted to put your most precious cargo on the back of any animal, put it on a donkey or a mule, really, because it will be safe because they're really, really calm and think about what they're going to do before they do it, whereas a horse is, you know, it's long up the dusty road before it's realized. There's nothing worse running away from when are you're running from nothing? So you know, donkeys have just been judged
by the wrong standards. Really, and I'm afraid what we see. You mentioned it, you're and you mentioned we've got Donkey and Shrek, and there are lots and lots of other depictions that probably start with Esop's fables way back when.
You might have seen a house flat, maybe even a super flat, but I bet you ain't never seen a donkey flat.
And they portrayed donkeys in that stubborn, slow, stupid way or pessimistic, at least in the case of Eviel.
Not much of a house.
Just right for not much of a donkey.
And we've all grown up with that, haven't we. Yeah, we've had that since the cartoon books. I'm sure some of your listeners will know the wonkey donkey he.
Was he wonkey donkey, wanky donkey, wangy donkey.
Okay, And it's just all of those terrible stereotypes about an ugly donkey that braze and is stupid. And you know, we just set the wrong standards. The Egyptians knew far better the value of donkeys and the Romans, but sadly we've somehow lost that in our culture.
You know, what about their emotion? Are they very affectionate animals or can you read the emotions of a donkey and kind of know what they're feeling.
Yeah, so donkeys are really emotional if you know what you're looking for. So we always say that donkeys are very subtle in their behavior. Very often, and a really good example is that donkey's pair bond very strongly. So a donkey will often have one special companion for its whole life, and unfortunately, if one half of the pair goes,
they will grieve about their lost friend. But similarly, they can also recognize donkeys that they might have met, you know, years decades ago, and they can express the joy of being reunited. And there is nothing more wonderful than a joyful donkey brain, you know, really loudly, but also just showing that excitement. But very often in day to day normal times, donkeys are quiet, they're you know, patient, and
they don't move fast, and they don't waste energy. And again it goes back to their evolutionary background that these are animals living in deserts where the temperatures are you know, in the forties. You don't waste energy. You don't waste water, and you don't draw attention to yourself because otherwise you're going to be somebody's next meal. You know, it's important that we understand they do express themselves, but at the right time and in the way that suits them.
Is that bray that you mentioned. You know how for me, I don't have children, so when I hear a baby making noise, I think it's in distress, and then I'll look and I'll be like, oh, it's playing, you know what, Like yeah, or if it's your own kid, I'm sure some people are like, I know exactly what that means. Can you kind of tell different emotions through the brain.
Definitely, So they have a huge spectrum of noises. So bray is the one that we know most, but there's also snorts and whiffles, and they can mean different things. So friends greeting each other, you can tell when two males that don't particularly like each other meet each other, but also when they're trying to seek affection or food very often, and you can often tell which bray belongs to which member of the herd. So they're quite individual as well, and certainly our donkey careers that get to
know their animals really really well. You know, they could probably say that's Alfred waiting for his dinner at five o'clock and we're two minutes late. So they are all individuals, but some of them are very noisy and they know how to express themselves.
I've seen those videos where I think there's one in particular where a girl comes back to the farm she's been gone for a bit, and a donkey just freaks out the so happy to see her. Is that kind of common when you feel like you greet donkeys or when you've been away.
Donkeys know their primary care as really well, and mules to get very attached to certain people, and they will greet an individual and they will get incredibly excited about seeing that individual. It's not every donkey, it's not every relationship, but you do see it. And you will also see if an animal has had to be given up by caring owners that then come and visit that animal. You can, in certain circumstances see just such emotion on both sides
to be back together again. And of course that's all to do with you know, donkeys are masters of social bonding and behavior, and they are really good at communicating, not just with each other, but with us, if we listen.
I've heard that some of them have good senses of humor. Do you ever get tricked by a donkey and you're like, that's a very good one.
Ah.
Humors are very sort of human trait, isn't it, And we do try not to answerpomorphosize. But there are occasions where I think donkey at least enjoys getting a reaction. So I can remember when I first started to really work with donkeys. I used to have a big, heavy jacket for the winter, and it had elasticated toggles on the side, and donkeys would really enjoy pulling on the toggle. And of course they all got an out because those things really hurt when you get stuck with them multiple
times in a day. So I think, you know, there are examples of that, and the donkey that opens the gate to let everybody else out. Obviously there's an advantage to them, but sometimes you do wonder they certainly enjoy the reaction that they're getting from us, setting.
I think that counts as humor. I feel like when someone's funny, you know they're smart and clever, so it's just cleverness. Yeah, reality, I'm actually very fun, relaxed and easy going. You mentioned mules, and let us disambiguate, because a mule, from what I understand it is a hybrid of a horse and a donkey, but it can't reproduce. So does that mean every mule is just a one off collaboration?
Yeah?
Why do some people have mules instead of donkeys?
Great questions? So mules are the cross of a horse or pony mother and a donkey father. There is another one which people know much less about, which is the hinnie, where the mother is a donkey and the father is a horse pony. Much less known about much of them, but still happens. So there is an uneven number of
chromosomes between horses and donkeys. So horses have got sixty four, donkeys have got sixty two, which means that you get an uneven number, which means the resulting offspring is sterile. So that ninety nine point nine to nine percent means that a mule or a hinney cannot reproduce. So it's
a really good question. Why do people have them. Mules possess hybrid vigor both physically and mentally, so they have often increased size and speed as compared to a donkey, but they have the calmness and the toughness of the donkey. So in a mule, you've got an animal that can go longer distances, is normally very disease resistant, tends to carry more in weight than either a donkey or a horse,
and has a speed between the two. They are also wonderfully intelligent, which is both an amazing trait for human beings but has also caused some confusion and concern. I think it's best to say and.
Mules remember that is the breeding of a male donkey which is smaller, and a female horse, which is bigger. Mules have been around for at least four thousand years. In a hinnie, yes, that's a big, old male horse impregnating a female, smaller donkey. So just like you would want a Yorky dad and a Great Dane mom, and not the other way around. That's why we've got a lot of mules and very few hinnies. But the mix of genes and a mule tends to result in a really strong and a trainable animal.
So mules definitely need kind and consistent training and handling, otherwise they can be tricky to deal with. But certainly. You know, the West of America was settled on the back of a mule, or at least behind it, because
mules drew the wagons that took settlers across. But you also have mules working in probably some of the toughest environments around the world, so the Nepalese Mountains, so much of Everest base camp, the supplies that go up to the near mountains, they will be carried on mules because they're sure footed, they're tough, they're strong, and they bring
that best of both wells. But you have to treat them fairly, and you have to be really consistent with mules because they don't tend to forgive them forget they are clever animals.
So when you say treat them fairly, good care and good food and all of that, and just respect for the.
Mule, exactly respectful that they will work well and hard for their owners. But they need to be properly treated and cared for. And a poorly handled mule is not something for the faint hearted, that's for sure.
And if you're wondering what happens if you are rude or mean to a donkey, just know that they can kick with forces over two thousand pounds and it speeds over fifty miles an hour or eighty kilometers an hour. Also, I was looking up donkey kick trivia and research and most of the search results were fitness related and I
was like, oh, donkey kicks okay. It led me down this steep and treacherous path to A twenty twenty study in the International Journal of Medicine and Health Development titled quote effects of six weeks donkey kick and squat resistant exercises on gluteal adipacity, muscle strength, and muscle bulk of young Nigerian female adults a randomized controlled trial and it was authored by doctors from the Department of Medical Rehabilitation
at the University of Nigeria. But this paper begins. Rounded protruding gluteus have been asserted to be an important feature of feminine beauty and self image. Currently there is a large influx of gymnasiums to achieve this end, as claimed by gym operators, amid the dearth of literature to support
their claims. Now, the authors they did feel that the setup needed further context, adding quote the round protruding gluteus signifies beauty, power, poise and physical strength, especially among young women. The size and shape of the buttocks are important attributes of feminine beauty. Some celebrities, especially in the movie and music industries, have risen to fame owing to their body image. So, I mean good questions. So this group, they recruited one
hundred and eleven females aged eighteen to thirty. They measured their butts, and then they assigned them randomly to a control group, a squats group, and a donkey kick exercise group. And you're like, tell us everything. I'm going to tell you everything, Okay. So they found that significant gain in gluteal muscle was recorded in both the squat and the donkey kick group, clearly not in the control group. However, the squat group found significantly more muscle gains than the
DKG or donkey kit group. So more muscle, but also one paragraph, shockingly, ny I write a lot of this
seem to contradict so much fitness advice. I've heard that you can't spot reduce in terms of at a post tissue, but this twenty twenty study asserts that both squats and donkey kicks significantly reduced at a post tissue fat tissue on the buttocks and quote this may be attributed to the exercise specific induction of fatty acid oxidation at the gluteal region, which is required to be the energy demand of the exercise. They say this result corroborates with other
studies involving high intensity resistance training. Okay, so there's information on your butts. It's your butt. You do whatever works for you. You have that butt look and feel exactly as you want it. Either way, it's a great butt. But just know scientists are out there unraveling all kinds of mysteries. You know, given your cell biology background too, do you ever see news reports that come in like trying to crisper a mule that can breed.
Yeah, that's often the thing that's brought up or cloned mules, or you know, can we design this ultimate equid? But actually nature itself is really clever, isn't it. And I think you know, mules have to be bred because they're wanted and they have a purpose. And I think people that really value mules understand that they can't have an offspring, but they're worth it just for what they have in that hybrid figure.
Any major updates on this, you ask other than all
the cloning they did on racing mules a few decades ago. Well, there was a twenty twenty five paper in the Journal Animals and it was titled Current in Emerging Advanced Techniques for Breeding Donkeys and Mules, and it kind of reported with a bit of a side that despite significant progress in the last decade, standardization of protocols for gammy conservation and embryo transfer are still required in long ear equits, meaning I don't think anyone's out there doing crisperon mules.
I'll let you know though. Also, yeah, we got mules, and we got ligers. And a liger is a tiger lion hybrid, but the offspring of a male lion and a female tiger also called a tigris, which seems unnecessary. But there are hybrids from a female lion and a male tiger, and those are called tigons. Oh so there's another new word. And the way to remember those is that the male animal comes first in both of those portmanteaus, even though the female grows the thing and it does
the birthing. Also, female ligers and tigons can sometimes reproduce, but the males are always sterile. But it's asinine. Back to Asinas. And when I think of a donkey, I also I can't help but think of mini donkeys because I've seen them in their tiny and adorable But when it comes to the size of a donkey, what's going on with mini donkeys? Where do those come from? Are they doing okay? What's the deal?
They're doing great. They're very popular. They are very very popular at the moment as pets. They are believed to have originally been bred in Sicily and Sardinia in Italy, and particularly for the tiny, tiny little tracks that you find in those rather arid environments. Since then, they've become exceptionally popular pets, and they are wonderful, but they do
if they're not bread carefully and properly. They can suffer from issues associated with trying to breed too small, so they can get dental issues, they can get foot problems, they can have issues giving bursts because of the size. But they are cute, and you can get mini mules. So my personal equid is a minute to mule and he is about the same size as a mini donkey, but cause we can get donkeys and mules, you know, sixteen hands, seventeen hands. They come in all shapes and sizes.
I don't know this, but one hand is four inches or just over ten centimeters and the height of a horse or a donkey. It starts at the ground and it goes up to the withers, which is right between its shoulder blades. And yeah, hands is a unit based on thousands of years of using your hand or a man's hand really as a ruler, and that's called anthropic measurement. And it just it strikes me as so weird that we just use a body part as a measuring tool.
But then I remembered I'm five foot five five foot feet or sixteen point two five hands, So yeah, we should all be using the metric system. But America has a lot of problems, so that's low on the list.
The mini ones are really fun and loving animal.
It's very adorable when you say you're a personal like, well, do you have one that's like a pet or do you have like fifty that's a pet? How do you do? How do you do it?
So I have two of my very own. One is a pony and one is my minute to meal Monty. So he's been with us for nearly twenty years. Now. And he was a little bit of a behavioral challenge, shall we say, when we first got him. But yes, he's taught me a lot, that's for sure.
Has he kind of calmed and settled in as he's felt more secure.
Yeah, he's amazing. He's a great example of mules love one person, and once they trust one person, he'll he'll let me do anything for him. But my husband is a whole different situation. But it is his that lifelong connection with donkeys and mules that they become part of a family. And I think that's what's so important when we see how donkeys and mules serve communities, but particularly families all over the world. They are a really important
part of that family set up. You know, they might bring the drinking water, they might take the kids to school, they'll help harvest the crops, and they are just such a valued family member. And that works well for the donkey and for the family, right.
I mean everyone you have a dog or a cat, and they're a family member. My dog doesn't even do anything other than speA cute and that's fine. That's all she needs to.
And that's fine, isn't it y?
Yeah?
Absolutely, And if she were to come back with groceries, I'd be like, Wow, that doesn't even matter, you know. Can I ask you some listener questions?
Please? Yeah, love to Oh my god.
Okay, they had one million, but before we ask just a fraction of those one and let's donate to a charity of faith's choice. And this week it's of course, the Donkey Sanctuary, which seeks to create a world where every donkey has a good quality of life and they
use world leading expertise and donkey welfare. They design targeted solution to meet the needs of these animals, and they bring together over four hundred welfare experts for rescuing donkeys, shaping their behavior, and collaborating with individual owners and communities. They also perform life saving surgical techniques and training of vets globally. And the Donkey Sanctuary improves the lives of
over four million donkeys worldwide every year. So a donation will be going to them, and thank you to sponsors of the show for making that donation possible. Okay, So patrons can sign up via patreon dot com slash ologies and submit questions before we record. You can join for as little as a dollar a month and it supports the show. So let's hear some questions, starting with Oh, Fernando Lopez Horo says.
Hi, first, some question, ask Fernando Lopez Oro from Mexico, big fan of donkeys. I was wondering when in revolutionary history did donkeys develop the ability to sweat? And how different does their sweat to do ours?
Do you know anything about donkey sweat?
Interesting? Donkeys tend to sweat less than other equis. It is something that you see now in certain environments you'll have horses, mules, and donkeys all together, and donkeys don't tend to sweat anywhere near as much they will, but it tends to be at much higher temperatures and that is because of their desert evolution, so they don't tend to trigger that response until much later than most other species, so they preserve their water.
Yeah, that makes tons of sense. Luke Spady asked if you find a lot of donkeys in ancient texts, and it sounds like yes you do.
Susan said, Hi, my name is Susan and I live in Seattle and I love your show. My question is that I read donkeys communicate by blowing in each other's noses.
Is that true?
And if it is true, what kind of information do they communicate?
Do you ever see donkeys moll on each other's noses?
Yeah, so they will definitely blow gently on each other's noses or on a hand that's offered to them. And they also have a reaction that's called the fleming reaction, which is where they curl up their toplip and very often you'll see people posting it as something cute or funny. That's the donkey getting smells into its old factory system, and it's just something that they do to make sure they draw in as much smell as they possibly can.
So the sense of smell is really important to donkeys, not least because they're territorial, so they leave markers, sent markers to let others know who they are and what they're up to.
And so this fleming reaction looks like a donkey is bearing its upper teeth, and that word flemen means to burrow the upper teeth or to look spiteful. But it helps the donkey push sense into the ramar nasal organ or Jacobsen organ to figure out what it is they're smelling and what it all means. And I've mentioned this organ before like in the Ethnosynology episode and Gustatology episodes about domesticating dogs and the sense of taste. Those are
two different episodes. And how I have a thirteen year old daughter, Gremlin, who is a dog, and she will chatter her teeth concentrating whatever she tastes, something new she's trying to figure out. So it's the same things. Sometimes the taste she's trying to figure out is a pee, her pee or another dog's pee. And yeah, I let her sleep in my bed next to my face, and
I try not to think about it. Speaking of their mouths, Olivia Lester wanted to know why do they wiggle lips side to side and Peter Shai said that they watched a burrow in Death Valley take a big bite out of a pie n apple cactus, chew it up and definitely spit the spines out intact. Are their mouths especially tough or are they just that talented?
Both?
They are tough and talented, really is the answer. So again, they are a desert adapted animal that feeds normally on scrubby thorny Acacia trees, which are really woody full of thorns. Their noses. As your other listener asked, why do they move around. They've got really mobile muzzles, which is actually there to try and avoid the thorns and the nasty bits.
But they are really good at getting rid of what is not good for them because in the desert they don't have rich pickings, so it's not like horses on wide open planes with lots of grass. Donkeys might have one shrub that they've got to get everything from for that day. So they do have these lovely mobile muzzles which do a great job of sorting out sorns and nasty bits of things like those catti.
And they don't get cut inside their mouth very rarely.
They're really really clever at finding out the bits, and they have an incredibly powerful jaw. If you think about the head of a donkey, it's much bigger in proportion than the head of a horse to the body, and that's because they have a really muscled and heavy jaw to be able to eat woody plants and shrubs, not just grass. So they love grass, don't get me wrong, But a tree or a shrub that's fine as well for a donkey.
That's so cool, Patrons, Lizzie Martinez and Kelsey had donkey mouths on the brain. Speaking of teeth, Emily Schrader wanted to know what was the evolutionary need for such predominant front teeth. And then they want to preface no judgment, they are cute, elice bastic. Their child Gi wanted to know what do they have teeth like humans? So yeah, they are front little chappers.
So they've got those front choppers, those incizes, and they're there to pinch at the grass or the tree or the bush. But also further back, they've got the most amazing molars that grow constantly throughout their lives, and those molars are there to grind up that wood and that grass. So what you can see at the front is only the tip of the iceberg. These guys have got the most amazing dentition at the back and it does a fabulous job of grinding up those are really quite tough plants.
So you see the nice smiley bit at the front, but I promise you there's far more going in behind there.
Do you ever have to brush donkey teeth?
Very rarely, so they do need dental care. So domesticated donkeys should have their teeth looked at at least once a year by a vet or another professional, and because they're domestic hated, sometimes they need some help with sharp points that come just through normal grinding, and very very occasionally they might have a medical reason that they need their teeth brushing. But let me tell you it is
not an easy job. Even with mint flavored cheese paste, Brushing a donkey's teeth is not something that I would wish on anyone, quite honestly, so that they're perfectly fine normally.
Otherwise I imagine having to get one of those scrubber brushes that you use for like pots and pans, just a long handle, best not to, best not to, Yeah, speaking of teeth. A lot of people had a question about an internet video they saw or first hand experience. Pam wanted to know. They said, my neighbor had to sell her donkeys because they were picking up her newborn calves
in their mouth and carrying them. Is this normal? Heather Cream and Alley Words wanted to know about the internet donkey that bites little goats on the back and carryrries them around when they get into his pen. What is that normal in nature?
This is unfortunately a normal donkey trait and one that is not funny. It's actually really serious when you see those videos. So donkeys are cute and lovable, and we all think that they are gentle, but as I've said, donkeys have quite an adapted fight response, and if something is in their territory that they don't perceive as belonging in their territory, they will try to get rid of
that animal. And unfortunately the donkey carrying around the small goat or the lamb or the dog, that isn't funny. That's a donkey actually displaying quite aggressive behavior, normal behavior, I have to say, and that's why my experience would always say, do not put smaller animals with donkeys unless you have introduced those animals incredibly carefully. You do see circumstances where donkeys live alongside goats cheap, but it's often a baby is born, so you get a kid goat,
or you might get a lamb. Donkey doesn't know where that's come from, and it may attack the animal. So yeah, what looks cute is actually not. I'm afraid that's not just play behavior, not at all. No, that's the donkey's evolutionary fight response. Because we have to remember that wolves in their environment or you know, other animals are a threat and are cute. Domesticated donkey has only had seven thousand years to overcome that, and of course they haven't.
So we do recommend people are really careful with donkeys and other livestock and pets.
Is there a way to introduce another pet or animal, like on the other side of a fence and let them get to know each other.
Yeah, you can, And that's what we would always advise, is somebody lets the donkeys see the animal frequently and get used to it. Sometimes donkeys will decide that that animal is one of them, and that's fine. I would always be careful. I have to say, I think if a companion starts to show that they're not quite right, maybe they're poorly, maybe they've had a you know, a funny reaction something, I think you've just got to be
careful because the donkey isn't doing anything wrong. Yeah, and we get lots of calls about donkeys that people don't want anymore because they work, eat and cuddley, and then they attacked the neighbor's dog or the new lamps. But the donkeys just doing what nature intended it to do.
So donkeys are going to donkeys.
And you know people do use that trait for human benefits, so you will see guys donkeys so god donkeys are often used in America, also in Australia and other parts of the world where they're kept with flocks of sheep or goats and they protect them against wolves and coyotes and predators, and that trait then becomes valuable to humans.
I feel like people underestimate how smart and fierce a donkey could be, so I could see that being very advantageous, almost like a sleeper donkey that you're like, oh, well, I had a good message. What about play? So we know that picking up another animal is not play, but do they like to play games? Ashley Mars said it seems like donkeys have a greater need for play than horses.
What are their favorite enrichment items? And Heather Livingston, Canadian gal eating dog hair for a living Lily, and bat Raichi both wanted to know about this.
Ah a great question. Donkeys love to play big dog toys can often be quite popular. They also really love rubber items, so things like a bucket made out of old tire rubber that's designed to be you know, have feed in it for the donkeys. Very often that's their favorite toy. Tug of war is a very common game with particularly boy donkeys. Two boy donkeys. They like balls, so old footballs can be very popular. They really like grabbing,
you know, good solid, safe items, throwing them around. They also will very often steal grooming brushes to play with, and ropes and things like that. So basically anything that's big enough to get in their mouth but safe. And they can also enjoy enrichment. So we might provide our donkeys with safe branches from trees or you know, items that we've smeared, something that smells really good. So they
like quite strong tasting and strong smelling things. So actually a lot of the items that you've got around your barn or your yard are pretty good play items. Just got to change them. Donkeys like novelty. Leave the same toy in with them for the whole year, they won't play with it after a day or two. Really swap it in and out and you'll have very happy donkeys.
Two donkeys playing tag of work. I'm sure that you have seen it, Alata.
It never gets old. I love it and I don't know what they're called in America, but we call them wellies. Wellington boots and rubber Wellington boots with no metal pieces the ultimate donkey toys. So when your boots have got holes in them, you can pass them safely onto your donkeys and enjoy watching them.
What about baby donkeys? Are they the cutest things in the world? Melissaquin wanted to ask what the flip is up with their weirdly variable gestation period. Is it a feature or a bug?
Your listener is absolutely right. It can be anything from eleven months to thirteen and sometimes longer. So donkey Jenny's just seem to have this ability to hold on to their foles until they're ready and they feel safe. So it is widely variable, and they give much subtler signs of being ready to have their foals than horses. And it's again an evolutionary adaptation, so they probably would just hold back until food was more plentiful or until they
felt they were safe away from predators. But we will often see it when neglected and uncared for donkeys come into our care that are already pregnant, that they'll wait until they feel safe and secure, often longer than we expect. You know, they've got to feel ready, and then in the dead of night the foles born. And there is nothing cute than a donkey fole. They are gorgeous, they're kind of gangly, right, They're tall, they're gangly, They're very fluffy.
That's always the surprise of donkey foles is how deep their fur is and how lively they are as well. So donkey foles are just full of stuff and nonsense and love careering around. Donkey moms tend to be quite calm and patient, but yeah, donkey foles are just a delight. Can't get anything better.
We had a few people, Joe Burnham, William Russell, Hannah Katzeriano Hudson, and Charlie w. First time question asker. Charlie asked, I've heard that donkey milk is similar to human milk and might be good for lactose intolerant people. A lot of people wanted to know why is their milk like humans? And we did a cheese episode recently where we talked a little bit about donkey cheese. Have you ever had donkey milk is what's going on there.
I haven't had a donkey milk for some good reasons. So donkey milk is biochemical profile is similar to human milk, and probably more similar to human milk than other mammals. There's been a long history of people believing that donkey milk was both good to drink but also to bathe in. So Cleopatra bathed in assi is milk.
Just to heads up, the history does get cloudy here, but it's fun. It's horrifying, and it's fun. So yeah, Cleopatra was said to have bathed in donkey milk and washed her face with it. But other history nerds assert that a later royal, Nero's wife, Papea, was the one who was known for this milk ritual. Honestly, this woman a dunken ass. Milk was like the least salacious thing
about her life. Because this wife of Nero, she reportedly cheated on one husband with the Roman emperor Nero, who had killed his mother for the throne and who executed his former wife who was also his stepsister, and then later killed his son with Pipea while they were on a fishing trip. And Popea herself may have died at her own husband's hand and by that I mean foot, because he allegedly kicked her in the stomach to death.
So I was like just trying to look up donkey milk baths and being like, what the fuck is happening here? People like horrifying emperors, but still why the donkey milk, And turns out the reason why people with money smeared donkey butter on themselves is kind of simple drug store chemistry. So let's have a look at the twenty fifteen paper Epidermal Permeability Barrier in the Treatment of Keratosis polaris, which notes that the efficacy for lactic acid in helping exfoliate
and replenish skin is known. So like, if you've ever gotten like little bumps on the back of your arms or just in general on your body, lactic acid can help that. And we learned that lactic acid in our recent microbiome episode is formed when milk sours or ferments. The lacdose turns into lactic acid. But if you don't have a donkey in an empire, you just go get yourself some moisturizer with lactic acid in it to make sure that your skin bumps go away and you keep things fresh.
So we're you know, we've got long history of donkey milk, but many of the donkeys that produce donkey milk don't have the best life, so donkey mothers tend to only produce a very small amount of milk. And you know that milk is very, very highly prized and very expensive. But donkey milk production systems, not all of them, but
some of them are not welfare minded. And donkey cheese, again, it is quite a sort of popular thing, but it takes so many liters of donkey milk to make a tiny amount of cheese, so that's a lot of foles that are not getting to suckle from their mum to make that cheese. You know, it has scientific basis, and we know that the Infant's hospital in Paris in the eighteen hundreds used to have donkey jenny's alongside to feed small babies that couldn't feed from their mum. So there's
a long history. There's good science, but welfare is not always at the heart of the industry. There are some good small producers that we've worked with to try and improve their practices, but where there's a profit to be made, often animal welfare isn't the primary importance.
I didn't necessarily want to eat donkey cheese. But now I actively don't want to eat donkey cheese, so that works out well for me. I think good. You've mentioned newborns, and I've seen this thing where they have fairy feet. They have what looks like blubbery fingers on the ends of their feet in it is cute and grulish, But can you tell me a little bit about that, a little bit about their hooks.
It does look something like Halloween, doesn't it. So the fairy feet are they're at birth, they very quickly go but that's an adaptation to make sure that the jenny isn't hurt during birth, So it's a soft covering of the donkey foles. Otherwise quite solid feet that could do a lot of damage, but they do look quite gaulish. Donkey feet, apart from those first few hours after birth, are amazing. So they again are highly adapted to the environment that they come from, so very tough, very rarely
need shoes putting on, unlike courses. But they are adapted to dry conditions. So when we see donkeys kept in temperate climates and where you know it's damp underfoot, they get lots and lots of medical problems. From being in that environment. So that's one of the the biggest issues that we've faced with donkeys around the world is weather and underfoot issues that cause lameness and major hoof problems.
Do they tend to get infected or are their hoofs wetter then they kind would be otherwise, and so they're they're more porous or.
Something they most certainly are. So we always describe donkey feet like sponges. So if you look under a microscope at a horse's hoof material versus the donkey's, the donkeys is much more open. We'll soak up much more water, which is great when you're in the desert because you need to soak up whatever droplets of water are available. But if you're a donkey living in the southwest of
England where I am, we have lots of rain. If you're not careful, those feet can get water logged and that leads to infections, so you get soft, crumbly feet, you get nasty, bacterial and fungal infections. Top tip for donkey owners is please please make sure your donkeys get some dry standing somewhere every day. Areas that have got low rainfall are brilliant for donkeys. But anywhere that gets lots of rainfall, particularly if it's warm as well, that's donkey for nightmare time. I'm afraid.
A few people asked about that. Keith and Newman wanted to know do donkeys or mules ever benefit from horseshoes? This question was a foot among patrons Mini, Mini, Katie, Seegert and Stephanie. They all wanted to know, have stuff? Can you put a welly on their foot? Does that ever happen?
So some donkeys and mules are shot and they can benefit from it in certain conditions. I would say most donkeys do not need shoes, and it's just going to cause more problems than it solves. Some mules that are working in particularly tough environments or that are going on roads a lot can really benefit from shoes. But again, most mules will do just fine without putting a man made metal shoe on their foot that they don't really need.
But us humans are great at thinking we can improve on nature, aren't we?
Yes?
And actually they're pretty good well.
Chavanni Rahan Hetchel said they were a horse girl growing up and always wondered why mules seem to have very upright feet compared to horses, and Stephanie asked, is it true that donkeys can see all four of their hoofs at the same time and horses can't. And many me also want to know, is that why they're so sure footed? Katie Seeger also volunteers at a sanctuary where there are mules and donkeys amazing right, and asked about her flee shoes too. But do they have a really different structure?
Is that why they're more shore footed?
Yeah?
So what brilliant questions from your listeners. So the donkey, and by virtue, the mule has a much more upright hoof. So as your listener said that they're much more boxy, we often say, and they're smaller, much more compact. Again, we go back to the evolution. The donkey has adapted to live in mountainous terrains with tiny little tracks, so big feet like you might find on a Clyde's Dale or on a thoroughbread and not going to help you. You're going to go over the side of the cliff
if you're not careful. So donkeys have a very narrow chest. You'll notice that they don't have big muscles like horses, and they have very close front feet. And back feet, and that means that they can pick their way very carefully along really steep, treacherous mountain tracks with their tiny, upright feet.
So this means they're as opposed to horses. Donkeys have kind of toller hoofs with less of an angle at the bottom than a horse does. So imagine like a horse's hoof is a wedge heel and a donkey's is like a point shiel. If you like exaggerated analogies. That's as good as I've got for you.
And they're not going to to themselves by going over the side. That does mean that they're not as fast as their horse cousins because they're different, but they're perfectly adapted for the place that they are. When you think about the Grand Canyon, why do we think most of the equids working in the Grand Canyon are mules. It's because they're sure footed. So that ability to adapt and cope with really quite dangerous environments is innate to donkeys
and by virtue mules. So those little boxy feet are just designed for where they are supposed to live.
And if you're wondering how much burden these beautiful beasts can handle, I was also wondering that and it depends on how big they are and also who you ask.
And according to a twenty twenty two paper the Welfare Concerns for mounted load carrying by working Donkeys in Pakistan in the journal Frontiers of Veterinary Science, there's little research, they say, regarding mounted load carrying limitations of working donkeys, but larger donkeys can carry what handlers tend to say is about twenty eight percent of their body weight, or around one hundred pounds, but some research out of India says that they can carry up to fifty percent of
their body weight, and in some heavy labor conditions like in masonry, donkeys have been noted to carry nearly one hundred and twenty percent of their body weight. But the study notes that donkeys loaded at more than fifty percent body weight were more likely to splay out when they lie down, which is a sign of back issues, which is not shocking considering that they're carrying more than their
body weight and like bricks. But horses, on the other hand, which are larger, obviously they can safely carry fifteen to twenty five percent of their body weight, so much less and mules. Remember the offspring of a male donkey and a female horse can carry up to thirty percent of their body weight, so they are stronger than horses. So patron to Patenko, Joe asked, are donkeys happy to carry our stuff for us on a hike? And if so,
how much is too much? And Honeybee also asked about donkey rides, and Karsa May said, under what conditions should peck donkeys be freed from traversing trails like the Grand Canyon? Is that humane work? Or should humans hoof that trail uneeded? How do you feel about donkey or mule tours? Riding a donkey for some reason? I see that and I think I don't know how well they're treated. I don't think I could do it. Is it kind of a bit of a racket.
There can be some good ones, Okay. I think we have to be really clear that there are some operators, and particularly small operators, that do a great job. We have to think that a donkey or a horse actually is adapted to travel maybe twenty kilometers a day in their natural environment. They would be exercising, there would be seeing novel situations, and they would be, you know, experiencing
lots of changes of environment. When we domesticate them, we take that away from the most of the time, and good work where the animal's welfare is absolutely critical, can be at least neutral, not bad for the animal. It can imitate some of what they would have in their natural environment. However, but again, when profit becomes the primary focus, sometimes animal welfare is forgotten. But if you are thinking about going on these tools or these rides, have a
look at the animal yourself. Are their signs of infection? Are their saws or rubs? How does the person running those rides interact with their animals? Are they kind? Are they gentle? How do they talk about them? Do they have a name? Is it an it? Or is it Jerry or Romeo or whoever? Ask those simple questions, and if you're not sure, don't do it.
So yes, you're actual mileage may vary depending on the outfitter. But for the love of donkeys, do some research now. If a mule or donkey has been neglected or retired, do you think it could be up for the job of your best friend?
You know?
Last listener question a lot of folks Dave Dwlly wanted to know if someone's daughter was able to have a rescue donkey, what environment would be most comfortable for that donkey? Would two or three rescue donkeys be happier together? And Kelsey Fant wanted to know what are some financial obligations to donkey ownership? Lauren Robinson, Peyton Hill, mendel Vescussi and Rosa wanted to know give us some tips on donkey care. I know you could write like an actual encyclopedia and
this is what you do. But if someone were to rescue a donkey, or has a donkey, or is getting one for a homestead, what do you want them to know?
Okay, most important thing is do not have a donkey on it sign so that one donkey, make sure it's got buddy, donkey's love the company of other donkeys, and under not drive unless they've got companionship. So that's number one. Number two is some kind of shelter so donkeys can't just be left out on a pasture and forgotten about. They need a barn, a simple shelter so that if it rains or it's really cold and windy, they can
get out of those conditions. And they need dry under their feet, so they need somewhere that it's not going to be wet and muddy that they can get out of again. Poor weather donkeys do not need to eat rich feeds. So many of the problems that we see where donkeys are pets and companions, they're overfed. So they're given sweet feeds, they're given high energy feeds made for horses or cattle. Donkeys do very well on low quality
fibers like straw. And get to know your donkey, so most importantly, after you've given them all of those things, the one thing that they will thank you for more than anything is spending time with them my heart. You know, get to know them, brush them, train them, take them out for walks. You see lots of people going out for walks of their donkeys and get to know their personality, because if they're not well or something is wrong, it's that knowledge of them as an individual that will let
you know. And so often it's a tiny, tiny change in their behavior that will say I'm not very well or something's going on. So time, shelter, not too much of the sweet stuff, a good companion, and lots of love, and then hopefully you've got a happy and healthy donkey. But there's lots of resources out there, and the Donkey Sanctuary has tons on our website, so if people want to know more about how to look after donkeys, have a look and we can help you.
So that's the Donkey Sanctuary dot org dot uk and it's linked in the show notes.
Final thing, finances. Donkeys are not cheap, so you need to make sure you've got those yearly vaccines. You've got to do the yearly dentistry. Feet need trimming every eight weeks, they might get sick, they might need extra food, and they are probably going to live at least into their mid twenties, if not thirties, so it's a long term commitment.
They're the most rewarding animals to have in your lives, but both a big commitment, so make sure you're ready and then have a fantastic time with them.
A word of advice or is there something that is the hardest part about your job or working with donkeys. I imagine fundraising is going to be probably harder than actually going out and checking on the donkeys, right, but is there something about the world that is the hardest.
It's getting people to say goodbye at the right time and the end of any animal's life is difficult for their human cares. But donkeys are part of the family and they're you know, they're they're tough, and often they are stoics, so they will continue on with terrible problems with their feet and their teeth or a working animal that's really valuable to its family and is part of
that family. But there comes a time when we have to say goodbye sometimes, and with donkeys, because they live so long and we get so attached to them and they're so quiet about their suffering. I think that is the hardest thing that I have to deal with, is seeing animals that need to be let go, but then also seeing how devastated owners are. But we love our animals and it's the last great goodbye that we can
give them, So that's the hardest part. Fundraising is always tough, you know, there are so many competing organizations, and donkeys are associated with, you know, very often either something funny or some of the poorest people in the world. But I always like to think, if we help donkeys, we're helping people too, which makes it just so fantastic.
So and what about the best part of your day or like the best part of donkeys. Is there a part that you're just.
Like, oh, I love this, Oh every day, Probably any time that I get to step away from budgets and you know, managing people and actually get to go and spend time with donkeys, whether it's here on one.
Of our sanctuary sites in England or if it's in Ethiopia or India. Just getting that quiet moment with donkeys is such a privilege, and also seeing a when you make a difference to an animal, how it's life turns around. But also if you can help that donkey's family as well, it's just it's such such a wonderful feeding. But there's nothing better than a donkey blowing gently on the back of your hand saying I'm here, could you come and
scratch my ear please? They're just so gentle And I think that's the best bit is working with just such charismatic animals.
I think it's funny. People listening are probably like currently googling like a good closest donkey sanctuary to go visit to copeed a donkey.
Go visit, go and support them, go and learn more, and then it will become a life long event.
So ask astounding people, Yes, ask the nine questions because their brains are as big as their hearts. And thank you again to doctor faith Burden for all the work you do with the Donkey Sanctuary, and I hope this inspies you to your listener to visit an animal sanctuary near you, give a donkey a pet at least a wink. We will link to the Donkey Sanctuary social media handles in the show notes, and for more studies, you can look on our website at Aliward dot com slash Ologies
slash Asinology. We also have shorter, kid friendly versions of Ologies every week for free. They're called Smologies smolog i e S and you could subscribe to them in their own feed where we get podcasts. Tell your friends we are at Ologies on Blue Sky and Instagram. I'm Ali
Ward with one L on both. Ologies. Merch is available at ologiesmerch dot com and to support the show, you can also join our patreon at Patreon dot com slash ologies Huge, Huge, Happy birthday this past week to my forever friend and the admin of the Ologies podcast Facebook group. You know her, Aaron Talbert. Aveline makes our professional transcripts. Kelly ar Dwyer does the website, leading us down our
rocky path is scheduling producer Noel Dilworth. Managing director is Susan Hale, who handles everything from mason Ry to baby Lambs and splitting the heavy load of editing each week are Jake Chafe and lead editor Mercedes Maitland of Maitland Audio Nick Thorburn Braid the theme music, and if you stick around to the very end of the show, you know I may burden you with a secret from my
life in this week. It's that I started reading your pod mother Jared's favorite book, which is this fantasy action series called Heroes Die, because I wanted to be familiar with these characters and lore that he read a long time ago. They're in his brain and like the first few pages are brutal. I was like, what is this and then I was like, oh, okay, they're like setting up a character like this for a reason. Got it anyway, tour through the whole thing. Loved it. Very underrated fantasy
sci fi book Heroes Die by Matthew Stover. And also it's just cute to know that these are characters that live in his brain. But also he started reading a favorite book of mine. I've always loved called My Side of the Mountain, which is about this little kid who runs off to the woods to live alone, and it's set in the sixties, which is I guess, like why
his parents didn't get arrested for child neglect. But anyway, if you have friends or family members, maybe ask what their favorite book is, or start a little book club where you take turns reading each other's favorite comfort book. It's just kind of a nice thing to do, and it helps you get to know the people that you already know even better. Okay, organized locally, buck ice, stay strong, love each other, Byebye, pacadermatology, homeology or doo zoology, lithology
and technology, meteorology, paratology, anthology, seriology, leology. Donkey, there's donky bad. How am I going to get this donkey,