Hello, friends. On episode number seven of Old School New World, The Life of an Entrepreneur, we flipped the script. I was asked to be a guest on the Billion Dollar Podcast with Cain and Joe. We talk about going from banker to broker, different things that are required to pay attention to if you're looking to make the move.
And not only do we talk about that, we talk about mental health and what it takes to be consistent and pay attention to how you're feeling because your performance also is a reflection of that. They graciously allowed us to air that on our channel. So be sure to subscribe. Thanks so much, guys. Appreciate you. the Billion Dollar Podcast. Today's guest is Mike Diaz, the founder and principal broker of DNA Lending Group, with over 13 years of experience as a mortgage broker.
Mike, it's great to have you with us. Thanks very much for coming. Thank you so much, Joe and Kane. It's a pleasure to be here. I'm honored and look forward to our conversation. Yeah, absolutely. Just a little bit more about Mike. After nearly two decades with the TD Bank and Scotiabank, Mike transitioned into the mortgage brokerage space to offer Canadians better, more personalized options.
He's passionate about heart -centered leadership, financial planning, and ensuring clients have the tools and knowledge to make informed decisions. Outside of work, Mike enjoys spending time with his son, staying active, and running his own podcast, Old School New World, which we're definitely going to talk about. Mike, welcome. It's great to have you with us. Thank you so much. So my first question is in going through your bio, you were with the major banks for 17 years.
And, you know, we always like to ask our guests what motivated them to get into mortgage brokering because nobody wakes up as a five or 10 year old and says, you know what, mortgage brokering, that's the ticket for me. So with that in mind, what did motivate you to leave the security of that environment, that banking environment? to join Mortgage Alliance as a broker and now start your own brokerage? Yeah, it's an excellent question.
You know, it's almost like I was pushed a bit, you know, and life happens. I was super loyal and committed to each of those institutions, TD and Scotia. But it got to a point at the end where it was just wasn't feeling right. I was growing as a person, you know, the corporate environment. They maybe allow you to grow professionally, but when you're growing personally in a corporate world. They expect you to be rigid and tight and not be sort of who you want to be, an individual, authentic.
And rightfully so. Banks have been around for over 200 years. Their reputation is by far the thing they hold the highest in importance. And so, you know, it was a mutual sort of parting of the ways. And it's funny because two years before I left, I was already getting pushed into, hey, what does a broker do? Because remember, the banks. Back then, it's grown quite a bit of awareness. When I was a banker, you only go to a broker and the bank says no, right? That was the idea.
Or if you have something weird, go to a broker. Don't come to us, please. And I didn't know anything about it. I met a gentleman who's well -respected in the industry. He's a real estate agent, Chris Kellos. And he's also was a good guy identifying talent. He slowly tried to bring me in, introduced me to certain people and brought me to a Scotiabank, a wine and cheese broker event. And so I stepped in there two years prior to making the move. Then when it was aligned, I sort of had an idea.
OK, let me go talk to this person. was And I ended up doing it. And to be honest, you know, the old saying, oh, the only thing I wish I had done it sooner. It doesn't matter. That will always hold true, whether it's for me 13 years ago, for someone today. or someone 10 years from now. Because, you know, when I got into the business, people were saying, hey, you know, you came at the wrong time. If you had come in 2008 or 2009, it would have been amazing.
And here I am coming in in 2011, 2012, and done, you know, phenomenal business. I helped and serve thousands of people. And the same thing will apply to new people coming in today. And they say, oh, you know, I wish I'd been sooner. No, you don't. You just be happy with what you've done. One of the things that we've noticed over the years, and you know, by the way, it's great having you in the broker channel for this long. You finally made the move and it's right. Never too late.
Like you said, what is your opinion on the qualifications of mortgage reps at the bank level in comparison to what you do in mortgage brokers in this channel? You know, I started with the bank at 18, right? So I was a teller and I worked my way up. But if somebody was getting in there and becoming a personal banking officer or financial advisor first at 21, 22, I think it's important. My son who's 15 says he wants to be a broker. Oh, amazing.
His mom and I agree that he's going to start at the bank, whether it's 18, 19, because you need to learn the corporate structure. In my view, some people are possible to jump into entrepreneurship right away. But you need to find structure, especially the young people of today. You can learn from bad leaders and good leaders. Figure out what you don't want to be, and you can figure out what you want to be. Just learn the aspect of connecting with people, hearing people.
You know, when I joined this business, the broker channel, I shut my mouth, opened my ears. I might have been a 17 -year banker, but I wasn't silly enough to think that, oh, I know it all already. Let me go do all this stuff. So same thing when you're starting in the banking world. Just open your ears. You know, the best way to learn is by osmosis. oh, Pick up certain pieces because you'll only learn more and more as you get into this business about what's available.
You know, the plethora of products, like there's a lot, you know, and so you'll learn that, but learn the people skills, you know, learn what drives the bus. And you can learn this at the bank for sure. Learn to put people first, not the dollar signs first. Right. Because you're not going to make any money at the bank. They're going to give you a title. And this is so pretty. And look at the shiny little plaque you have here.
But always allow yourself to do what's in the best interest of your clients that are in front of you at the bank. And then everything else will come after that. A lot of people only put the dollar sign first. I need to do this to make that. You know, I have a philosophy. If you only chase money, money will always outrun you. Because you're not going to make any because you will never catch it. I think that's the big difference.
And then when you join this side, it's important to align yourself with people that you like, that are aligned with your values and beliefs. And if I could say one thing that I wish I'd done differently, I was a lone wolf for 13 years. I had a small team here and there, people that I helped and supported. I wish I'd created more of a team environment sooner, what I'm doing now. right, with my new brokerage. So that's one of the things.
So if somebody's joining, join something that's going to feel right. You know, don't let the head make the decision, make your heart make the decision. head From your experience being at the bank and now being in the broker channel, do you think it's better for consumers to use brokers or go to the bank and only use brokers when they're turned down? What is your thought on that? You know, know, the answer to this, Joe, and you're always better served with a broker.
And it's not about the plethora of products. Yes, that's pretty and nice. It's about the relationship. Because if you're dealing with a banker, good luck if they're going to be there two years, three years, five years, 10 years. Because banks and those mobile reps or maybe the personal banking officer, the financial advisor, they want to move up. If they have ambition, they're not going to stay in their desk for a long period of time. So the value someone brings to the consumer on our side.
is substantial, right? The relationship piece, looking after them, listening. But remember, people that are in our business, like the new people coming in, they really have to want to do that for themselves. That's the biggest difference too, right? Like they might be doing it for the bank because the bank tells them when they join us, they have to do it for themselves because it's the best thing to do for their clients and friends, right? So I think that's a big differentiator between the two.
One's long -term, but you have to have a process to create that long -term. And that's sustainability. You can't be in and out, like push one deal in, push one deal out. That's how you're building your personal brand may not be sustainable. So that's, I think, is a big difference. Is that something, Mike, that you found right away? We see a lot of bankers now coming through our course and coming into the broker side.
For those coming into the industry or thinking about coming in the industry from the banking side. What can they expect? Maybe what surprised you? What challenges did you have? How did you overcome them? Just for some more context for those that are considering. Yeah. So let me answer that one specifically. So I feel like I'm a bit of a unicorn, but I can tell you from others, they have to expect when they're jumping in, you may not make money for three, six, nine months.
And it's not because you're not talented. I started in May, closed my first deal in July. It's very unusual. It's a referral, but you have a deal, you come in a couple months in. you might have a deal closing 60 or 90 days out. So this is why that window. So I was nervous. I was going through a divorce at the time. I just built a new home. I had a lot of things on the go. So I was surprised for me how the transition went. It was scary at first, like I mentioned earlier.
But once I got rolling, confidence is something that you build on. I was a confident person. I am a confident person. But when life has got you a little bit turned around. you start to wonder, right? So that's one of the things for sure is be prepared not to make money. People think, oh yeah, I'm going to be a broker. I'm going to make tons of money. Yes, you will.
It's a very fulfilling role that we do, but you can't be coming out with your eyes closed and saying, oh yeah, you have to understand that aspect of it. The other thing that surprised me because I didn't know a lot about it was back to some of the products is the B side or the private. I didn't have a lot of exposure. I don't know how many today people have exposure to. understanding the B and the C side of our business. So that's something that I was dropped into and started to learn about.
So that was a bit surprising because I didn't really know, right? What you don't know, you just don't know. So that would be probably another piece. And expect to be scared and fearful. You've got to be prepared to be comfortable with being uncomfortable if you're going to make the move. When you're uncomfortable, growth takes place. And that includes personal, professional, anything you need to do for yourself. In the bank, the bank makes you feel super comfortable and safe,
right? And then you get trapped, you become content. Oh, this is great. And then you want to make a move, all these other things start to happen. So just be prepared for those. Those would be the three things that I think people making the move need to be prepared for and think about. You said a lot there, a lot to unpack. Something you said, I think will resonate well with those coming in from any industry, not just banking, is you talked about creating almost like a community or culture.
within your brokerage, but then even within the industry. I think lesser known is how wonderful this industry is, especially now, I think more so than ever in terms of community, in terms of people giving back and sharing ideas. So new agents or those just coming in. that are looking for a brokerage, maybe interviewing with a brokerage, how do they make that determination? What should they be looking for, for a brokerage that fits with
them? In addition to the culture and community, what kind of things do you think are important or should be important for those coming in? Yeah, I think they need to really evaluate the values that they have for themselves as they carry on through the brokers they're joining as the fit with respects to what they expect to get from someone. Because it's one thing to say to someone coming in, hey, I can do this for you. but it's what the brokerage can do
for them, right? So they need to have maybe a list of three things, four things. Hey, I need this, this, this. That requires you to be vulnerable. It might require, hey, I'm lacking in confidence. You have training material that helps confidence. I bring that up as a point. I can talk about it later. I have training of live conversations, my own conversations with my clients and friends.
I have 200 playbooks that will go from a gauntlet of First -time homebuyers, repeat buyers, reviewing affordability numbers, all of these things. Because I think in our business, there's a lack of live training, right? In terms of hearing. And when I say learning by osmosis, in today's world, it's hard. Nobody comes into an office anymore, right? When I joined, I joined another broker. Before Mortgason, I was there for a year and a half. It was an office environment where they had cubicles.
Everybody heard everything. I picked up a lot on that. So I think that's something to be mindful of as well. You know, one of the other things that you mentioned was about that lack of knowledge and understanding of like the B side and products like that.
Do you think that bank employees like bank mortgage reps should know more about the industry so that they could give maybe better advice to their clients as in, more about the industry so that they could give maybe better advice to their clients as in, you know, our narrow suite of products, it's not really perfect for you. There's other options out there. And let me point you over to. one of those options or one of the brokers. Do you think that the banks would better serve their clients by
having that knowledge? I don't think the bank is excited about doing that because they know that it's not a benefit for their people to know. don't think the bank is excited about doing that because they know that it's not a benefit for their people to know. But I can tell you, I think bankers make the best brokers. That's my opinion, just because they've been in the corporate environment. But the best investment you can make is in yourself.
Spend the $400, go to Remick, get the license just so you can understand. what a broker needs to be licensed. It doesn't mean you're going to make the move. You're allowed to write the course. You're just, you wrote the course. You invested in yourself. And then, you know, that'll open the door, right, to them deciding, hey, wait a minute, I wrote this course or I did some more research myself, not because the bank told me to, because the bank won't tell you to.
And they would be doing themselves a favor, number one. And then in turn, They're going to be helping their clients and their friends with other alternatives. Listen, I know when I left Scotiabank, Oriana, I think it was the brokers, they were investigating doing deals that the bank said no to transfer, like to be their person. Like, hey, if you have declined deals that have no option, I think RBC has something similar or did anyway.
So there is that there, but it's not talked about, I don't think, all that much because it's taboo. You don't want to be talking about it. But nonetheless, I think it's important, yes, for them to educate themselves. For the sole reason, for themselves. But remember I said, we can do everything we can. We can beat them over the head. We can scream from the mountaintops. We can, you know, make every attempt to help them.
But if they do not want to help themselves, whether it's learning, to And they it's learning, getting to a different place, or anything like that, you know, it's like an old saying, you can bring your horse to water, but you can't force it to drink, right? But I think there is a tremendous amount of value to just expand your knowledge, even if you don't apply it right away. a just expand your knowledge, even if you don't apply it right away. See what the world's about a bit in that sense.
You mentioned about the training that you do, mentioned about the training that you do, the live training, which is fantastic. That sounds exactly like what people need. How have you found that the people that you have working for you have responded to that? Thank you so much for asking that. Because again, I'm going to be live. My brokerage October 15th. So I'll be very honest. I don't have the agents yet. Like I have everything I need around me.
I have my executive associate, Melanie, who handles my emails, calendars. And I know Melanie now six years. She was on MatLeaf two years ago. I brought her back May of this year. I hired Sean, my associate. And I say associate, but my underwriter. I like to use the right words anyway. I brought him a year before Melanie went on MatLeaf, not because I knew she was going to go on MatLeaf and have twins, but to support her. So Sean's now become the associate.
Melanie looks after all the stuff I hate doing. I have a marketing coordinator. I have this training. But what I don't have, and I knew this was going to be the heaviest lifting, was agent. honest. I I believe and have faith when I start to get people coming on board. There's three parts. Recruiting, hiring, onboarding. Recruiting is, hey, tell me about who you are, what's going on. Hiring is, here's our culture. This is going to be what you're jumping into. Oh, they want to. It's onboarding.
That's the heaviest lifting because, man, oh, man, it's tough for a new brokerage, an infancy brokerage. You understand how that all works. TD Bank, I start with zero. That means I have to build up to get full comp. Scotia, I have a pretty good relationship with. I think I'm going to be okay for a year. So I'm betting on myself, betting on DNA Lending Group, but I think people will love this training. Like why read some information when you can hear live experiences?
If I was a new agent and somebody said to me, hey man, you can listen to me, talk to a variety of different, and it's all confidential. There's no disclosure of personal information. It's just a conversation like we're having, minus if you didn't say my last thing, for example, it would just be Mike, Kane, and Joe. There's a million Mike, Kane and Joes, but we're not talking about my social insurance number. None of that is happening in the conversation.
Zero. I would think as a new agent, that's maybe a biased response, but I would love it. was a I think that Kane would agree that our students like that type of interaction. And, you know, students love case studies, things of that nature. And I think this is a great extension on that type of training. You take it from a case study, theoretical to a live interaction. Joe, what I've done in preparation of creating these playbooks.
is I've asked people to, or will be asking people to listen, but not only listen, but what to listen for. Like, I mean, during a conversation, you can hear enthusiasm, humor, compassion, empathy. You hear it all. Like, I mean, when I'm an excitable person, you know, just like laughter, enthusiasm is contagious. You know, there's a lot of things built in. Like some of these conversations are very heartfelt. And these are some people I've known for a while. The people I had just met.
And the idea of conversations for new people, new agents, sometimes they think they have to ask about their whole family. No, no. When I get a new client, I'll give you a quick synopsis. Hey, Joe Smith was kind enough to refer you. Thank you so much. I appreciate you for the opportunity to help and serve you. Tell me a little bit about what you're doing. You tell me a little bit about what you need. Hey, Mike, I'm looking to buy a house, blah, blah, blah. Then I just go dive right in.
Okay, here's the thing. Talk about the market, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then... Get them to buy in. I get their permission. I'll say things like, with your permission, I'll send you an email, and then you know where the buy -ins are. You know where the pain points are. You know what things are happening. And lo and behold, 30 minutes later, I'm sending out an email. This is what I need. The requested item's required. And they're sending it, and we're taking the next.
And then the relationship builds. We start talking about kids. We start talking about this. But the initial conversation should always be, let's get to the nitty -gritty. Slow, small talk, banter. but then get into it. Relationships are not built on the first call. What's built on the first call is what the client needs. Every playbook is almost identical in that sense, but obviously different interactions.
built So Mike, I think this is so important for new agents, maybe especially if you're new, like you said, completely new to financial services, completely new to sales, completely new to marketing, those types of things, those soft skills, that training is super important. Even before they get there though, and you're just about doing this now. What types of things are you going
to look for from new agents? What are those markers that you're going to look at and say, okay, I'm going to hire this person. I know I want that. I'm just curious to know because I think there's a misconception about people that enter in this industry that they do have to have some finance background or do have to have sales background. I'm wondering what you're looking for. I'll tell you what they need. that do have to have sales background. I'm wondering what you're looking for.
I'll tell you what they need. It's the only thing they need because everything else can be taught. They either will understand credit and debt or they don't. I have pieces that... can easily say like GDS, TDS, if they look puzzled, okay, credit card debt, what's that? Okay, sorry, I'm not the guy for you, or maybe you should, because it's either you understand our business, the fundamental, the application numbers, affordability.
If you can't grasp that, and then you're not expected to know right away, but if you ask me a question and you've come back to me one time, two times, okay, if you come back to me the third or fourth or fifth time for the same exact thing, it's because you don't understand. And I will have to have a difficult conversation, unfortunately. Hey, so -and -so, Joe, it might not be for you. It's just you're not capturing it. So that's number one.
I think the top, top is I get a sense for them if they understand it. Because remember, our business was never taught in school. So financial matters, mortgages is close to the best. You only learn it from your family, typically. A lot of people, their first bank account, of course, will be where their parents banked. That's how it worked, right? And so it's just important to understand as much as you can, do they understand credit? Credits and debits.
That's what they need because the conversation piece, the people pieces, that can be taught. Those are soft skills. Trust and credibility, believe it or not, is soft skills. How do you establish trust and credibility? Through your process. Calling them when you tell them you are. You know, you're following up when you're going to follow up and all of those small things. I equate trust and credibility to, deposits and withdrawals in a bank account.
The more deposits you have, the more you can afford to withdraw. We're not perfect. We're going to make mistakes. But if you're not making those deposits, following up when you are, doing the things you say you're going to do, doing the thing that's in their best interest, and then, oh, lender made a mistake or something, there's a withdrawal, but it doesn't overdraw your account. So you're still building on that.
To answer your question, Kane, I will know right away if they understand the numbers piece of our business. Like someone that has some basic, someone that has some basic, understanding of financial literacy or even their ability to grasp that and communicate it effectively. It also sounds like what I'm picking up from what you said is maybe discipline is important, the ability to be organized and do what you say. So I think all of those play in there as well.
Yeah. Another piece maybe, I've been called the CRM guru. I wouldn't go that far, but I'm grateful for somebody acknowledging. I've been doing this since 2014, where I have journals. I mean, journals upon journals, like of client journeys. And my very first one was Nikki. 2014, she referred me, her friend, then her daughter. And I write all about it. If people are shy about journaling, whether it's for themselves personally, great, but for their clients, so they know what's going on.
Do you want to explain, Mike, what you mean by journaling? Maybe for those that aren't sure exactly if the context is. Of course, of course. sure So let's say I meet a client and we have a conversation in my CRM, describe it as a task or my notes section. I put the date. So today is October 3rd, 2024. I describe our conversation, how it went, what it went. Next time I talk to them, let's say a week later, it's now October the 10th.
And I don't need to put the year because it's a continuous journal from top to bottom. And those things will just describes the whole event. So Joe talked about this in the course he was talking about. Let the deal talk about itself. You know, if you ever get like a compliance issue, you shouldn't have to explain the deal. You should allow your deal to talk for itself. I just want to add something in there.
You know, we see a lot of students coming through our course, a lot of different personalities. Some people struggle with that part of it, making those notes. I think it's super important. I think it's important for your business reasons and also, you know, to make sure you're compliant as well. And like Joe was mentioning your deal. But what I want to say is that there's not really an excuse anymore because with this emergence of technology.
Joe and I both have a product called the Plot Note, which you can attach to your phone. It'll record your entire conversation. It'll summarize your conversation, make those notes for you. There's also technology you can attach to any one of your virtual meetings that can do the same type of thing. So it takes away a lot of the work or almost all the work for things like that. Those tasks that you maybe don't want to do. There's no excuse anymore not to be doing that. be doing that.
You know, God bless you, man. What a great comment because I'm old school. I'm an habitual person. You have to be habitual to be successful. And I know there's technology now. I can't wait. Maybe I got a young person who's an IT savvy because IT and I are not friends. So I struggle. I hate it. I cringe.
But this idea of what you just said, this thing you plug into your phone, imagine being in your car and you get a call and you have this thing you just described and then you have this conversation and then you don't have to take any notes because it gets downloaded into, oh, it's music to my ears. It's available now, available now, Mike. You can get it. I know, I know. Listen, You can get it. I know, I know. Listen, I'm doing so many things at the moment. I got so many irons in the fire.
But yes, I know. I know there's so much out there. The three of us will go out on a lunch on me and you can show me all that stuff for sure. I You know, the major problem with it is that you have to charge this stuff. And like the chargers are ridiculous. I mean, they're unique to the device. I had, you know, like a padlock that you can open with a thumbprint.
okay i can't find the charger for it so you know what am i gonna do i gotta go now and search the company and find a replacement charger and the anxiety that brings up joe is killer that's why i try to stay in my lane but i would love to be more in tune with what you're describing yes yes for sure yeah and kane likes to say that he's constantly curious and that's an excuse as to why he's always on his phone you have to be curious especially about
technology because otherwise you know if you're going to end up anxiety that brings up joe is killer that's why i try to stay in my lane but i would love to be more in tune with what you're describing yes yes for sure and kane likes to say that he's constantly curious and that's an excuse as to why he's always on his phone have to be curious especially about technology because otherwise you know if you're going to end up you know, still using Microsoft Excel only for your CRM when there's these
robust systems that can do a ton of stuff and you're, you know, just stuck in your lane, right? your lane, right? Yeah, and I will say this. So I have a great friend. Shout out to Roy Cocholo. He's the broker owner of Your Mortgage Your Way. I love Roy. It's his birthday today. Happy birthday, Roy. And so he referred me over to someone that built on Google Suites or G Suites. So I'm going to take that next
step for my brokerage too, right? Because as I bring on people, there's going to be opportunity to revamp some of my backend because anybody starting a business, if your operations is not fine -tuned, you're going to struggle quite a bit. And I know this already, and I'm doing all the work on that end to do that. So to your point, although I'm a dinosaur, I'm moving a little bit out of the old age. It is the new world.
You know, my podcast, Old School New World, going to old school principal's way of doing things, but it's a new world. that we have to adapt to. So yeah, have to adapt to. So yeah, maybe tell us a bit about the podcast. Have you started it? Have you filmed any episodes? Give us some info about the podcast. So it's something that, So it's something that, you know, listen, podcasting is a long game. I didn't start it to make money.
I started it because I wanted to help young people understand different topics, whether it's wellness, financial literacy, you know, anything to do with what they were looking to achieve. I do have three episodes that have already been aired. My mostly recent one, you guys will know Michael Beckett. So Michael Beckett is a gem of a man. I've known Michael for 13 years, founder of Mortgage Alliance. And he was gracious enough to be my third guest. Him and I had just a great conversation.
And I've always considered Michael a mentor. is But at the end of last year, meaning December 2023, I came out and asked him to be my mentor. And lo and behold, he was kind enough to say yes. And the same thing with Roy. So I have two mentors. And I think mentorship. is so important. I'm 47, so I'm not like a young guy, but it's never too late to start.
And so Roy also, I asked him at the end of last year because I have a great deal of respect for him as well and what he's done for himself personally and professionally. And they both said yes. So I meet with them once a month as a sort of, hey, what's going on? Things like that. Because leadership, you need to learn to be the best leader you can be. And so you need mentorship. Sorry, back to the podcast. So the episode I had with Michael was fantastic. And I'm pivoting a bit.
So I'm redesigning it a bit. I know how there's different ways of doing it. But I really did my purpose for it is to help others. My purpose in life, I've discovered, is to help and serve as many people as I possibly can. And I won't get into a lot of detail. But, you know, three and a half years ago, my life changed forever. I was in a coma for 17 days. And the first year and a half was the most difficult time in my life. Last year has been the most incredible year of my life.
And it's the best space I've lived in my whole entire life. And the amount of blessings that fall from the sky, and they're not divine, small things. I'm very blessed and grateful. So, you know, things like that will come out more. And my therapist is writing a book. She's 99 .9 % agreed to be the ghostwriter. My life is pretty dynamic, gentlemen, pretty wild. I mean, it sounds really interesting. mean, it sounds really interesting.
Obviously, there's a story there and perspective has maybe changed. It sounds like after something happened, perspective changed a little bit. Is that what we're getting? we're getting? Yeah, what happens is so incredible. There's something called post -traumatic growth.
So there's a study that's being done in the US, has been for a few years, and I came across it by accident or maybe not by accident, where it says when you either have emotional trauma, physical trauma, or any kind of, if you're carrying bags of rocks around and you can't let those bags go, guess what's going to happen? Those rocks turn radioactive and life's going to be really tough. And so something like that happens, you either regress, you stay frozen, or you accelerate forward in growth.
And the idea, and my therapist and I are going to talk about this in the book a bit, if you were already prior to this experience, you were already attempting to grow, whether it's professionally, personally, whatever it is, and this trauma happens, it's not going to be easy. Like I said, first year and a half is the most difficult.
When you turn that corner and you're already in the action prior to the incident or a situation growing, that acceleration of growth, and that's what post -traumatic growth looks at. But the reason they're having a hard time identifying it specifically, because they're trying to help therapists, psychiatrists with this information, it can only be gathered from the people that knew the person best, right? Close friends, family. Have you noticed a difference in them?
What has been happening to them? Helping us understand. what they were doing prior or doing after. So that kind of thing is part of it. And the other thing I'll ask for some perspective, I have an addictive personality and Michael and I talked slightly about this on our last episode, but I was an addict and that label would always be with me. And my drug of choice was cocaine, but it wasn't an everyday thing, but it was part of my life for a long while.
And there's an itch that happens when you're an addict. It's like a circle. You're in the baseline. If you're doing whatever drug it is, you go above the line, there's a world, there's a space that's real. What happens, you come down, you go below the base, you're there, ugly world below the base. You come up, then an itch on the shoulder. Hey man, start to party. And then it's rinse and repeat. And that's the struggle addicts go through in this cycle that they live in.
After this incident for me, when I woke up, I guess a year and a half was the most difficult. And I had doctors calling me. Do you feel depressed, suicidal? Like it was, I had a epidural hematoma. So swelling of the brain, had to take the scalp off the thing and it's really dramatic. I almost died. But even that incident was a blessing. So doctors were calling me and I'm thinking to myself, the I'm thinking to myself, no, I'm not like that.
What's going on? And then finally, I was feeling like I was walking through molasses. So imagine wearing boots and socks, boots comes off, then the sock, you put the sock back on, then the boot, and it's over and over again. So I finally went to talk to one of my dearest friends. And I said, Jesse, you know, I'm thinking I'm going to see my family doctor because this last year, doctors have been calling me, following up, asking me if I'm depressed or whatever.
Maybe I should go talk to my family doctor about medication because maybe that's what this guy needs. And she goes, I don't know how I feel about that. You know, and everybody has this stigma about mental health and what we should do about it and what we shouldn't. Everyone struggles with it. And Jesse, in the best way she knows how, Mike, man. You said, you know, rip lines of cocaine and didn't give a shit. And now you're worried about taking medication? I go, ah, okay, fair, good point.
So I go talk to the doctor and we went on a program. And I say program, the medication. And it's only started kicking in and working well. Finally, in December of 2022, I said, oh, finally, I'm feeling a little bit like I did. Because the thing I wanted to feel better again, feel like I was before, but not with the artificial reasoning of dealing the way I was feeling. And then lo and behold, fast forward to April, 2023. My doctor and I had a plan to get off the medication.
Being a Portuguese guy and stubborn like hell, he said, okay, Mike, wean off this. Okay, doctor, no problem. Stop taking it as soon as I got home from the visit. Holy, three days later, I thought I was ready to like throw up. So I went off the weaning and I've been off it now and I feel great. What I learned from that is that if I ever find myself in a dark place or somewhere where I'm struggling and it's lasting a long time, maybe I need to go see my doctor. you know, my family.
I don't need the artificial stuff. You know, I've been cocaine sober three and a half years, super proud of it. That's never going to be a part of my life. It probably didn't have to be. But now I know if I feel weird, or if I feel something's going on, then I'll go talk to my family doctor because medication is not necessarily antidepressants or any kind of medication to be taken lifetime. Some people need it. And that's because they need to balance the chemicals in the brain. And that's okay.
But I use it for an eight -month period. And I feel great. The only drug I'm on now is a drug of life. So it's awesome. You know, and your point about mental health is so well made. It is something that used to have more of a stigma. I hope that as time goes by, that stigma is stripped down and left by the wayside. You were absolutely right. I think we all struggle with it at one point or another. So congratulations on that.
That is a really... heartfelt and inspiring story thank you thanks for opening up a little bit yeah i think that's really important for just the reason that you said and you know normalizing this a little bit it doesn't have to be such a stigma you know we all have stories we all have problems right sometimes as joe mentioned so i think it's really cool that you share that you know one thing i'll thank my parents for my mom you know god love her still around she loves to talk okay and my dad's a
little more quiet and reserved i came from a family of cleaners they had a cleaning business you thanks for up a little bit i think that's really important for just the reason that you said and you know normalizing this a little bit it doesn't have to be such a stigma you know we all have stories we all have problems right sometimes as joe mentioned so i think it's really cool that you share that you know know that you know one thing i'll thank my
parents for my mom you know god love her still around she loves to talk okay and my dad's a little more quiet and reserved i came from a family of cleaners they had a cleaning business The reason I got into banking was because of my mom. My brother and I used to go with them to clean, right? And all kinds of different branches my dad had contracts for. And there was a branch manager at TD Bank, Peter Miller.
My mom used to go into his office, oh, Mike, if you ever became a branch manager, I would buy you a chair. I'm like, oh. Okay, I'm what, 10, 11, 12. I don't know.
whatever and then it ended up happening that way it was quite funny but they always made me know that it took me to speak your truth so what's happened to you in your past doesn't define who you are what's happened in your past and what you do with it is defines who you are right and so i'm glad to be the torch bearer of talking about because god knows my life has not been perfect you know some of my friends after the most recent things and my man you're like a cat you have nine lives but
It's like 12, like you're like more than a cat. I know. But I'm now in the most, like I said, the best space I've lived. I think a really important piece of what you're saying here, think a really important piece of what you're saying here, at least what I'm taking from it is, and we talk a little bit about this in some of our post -licensing course, is the importance of doing some introspection and really figuring out before you even do your business planning is figuring out
why do you want to do this? Why are you getting in this industry? What is your personal? What is your why? I mean, there's a lot of talk about that now. I think it's super important to go through that and really think about it and feel like you mentioned helping people. I think that's a popular one in this industry. People also miss some of that, right? There's a lot of reasons why we talk to a lot of brokers and a lot of them have similar passion to help people.
And they get that good feeling when they do a deal and they, you know, maybe it's a family, maybe they help them out of something or help them. buy their home. And there's that really amazing feeling that you can't quantify until you do it. So I think that's missed often in this industry. Thank you. you. You know, I'll say too, Kane, on top of the helping is the serving. We provide a service.
You know, the helping, yes, is important to, but it's like a restaurateur who's in the hospitality industry. They want to make that experience for the person sitting down. And unreasonable hospitality is another great book I've read. It talks about this service lifestyle.
service being a purpose and it's not so much about what we help the person with is how we serve them and you know what we do and remember that servicing is not only during it's always after the serving piece comes after so how do you make it come after by again back to the beginning we were talking about the process the follow -up because you genuinely want to serve When I call a week after closing six months, two years, well, six month Melanie is thankfully taking over for me.
And I'll do my personal call at two year, three and a half, six months prior to maturity. The two year call or even the six month follow up is just to check in, say, hi, you know, what's going on? Is the home still treating you really well? Whatever the case is, whatever my journaling notes had. Hey, we talked about, you know, Hunter was sick. So I had a client, for example, the one today had a follow up question for him and about the lender was asking. Reasonable explanation.
Why is your year -to -date off track? Call the client. His son was not well. He had to take two weeks off. Boom. That's going to be in my notes. Because when I follow up next time, and there will be a next time, because until clients tell me to beat it, I'm never going to go away. And I say this to them, and that's part of building trust and credibility in relationships. I tell them straight out, hey, man, I'm always going to keep in touch with you until you tell me to beat it.
There's always a good chuckle, a laugh about it. They love it, I'm sure. I love it because I just loved it. So that servicing piece is not during, it's after. I mean, I think that's... Such a good lesson, especially for those that maybe haven't realized that yet, or maybe that are new to the industry. You know, Joe and I talk about that a lot with different service providers in our own lives. We have a life insurance agent that we both work with.
And, you know, he contacts us on our birthday, contacts us randomly. Even if I don't answer the phone, he leaves a voicemail. I know he's thinking about me. And, you know, you can bet when I think about life insurance, I'm going right to him as opposed to doing a deal with him. And then five years later, I forgot his name, right? You know, if you find yourself sitting at home.
in the car, going for a walk, and somebody you haven't talked to or seen in a long time pops into your head, just a thought of them. You know what I believe that is? All you have to do, send them a text. Hey, man, I hope you're doing well. Thinking about you. Whatever it is, whatever that thought triggered you, it is, whatever that thought triggered you, it's a reason. There's a reasoning behind it. And that could apply to your clients. Maybe you haven't talked to a client in a long time.
Oh, this client popped into my head. A lot of people maybe will just dismiss that. Just maybe send if you don't have the processes, do something because there's a reason why that popped into your head. And either they need you or you just need a hi or just need to hear from someone. Even if it's just like I said, hey, how are you? And, you know, hope you're well. And that can open the gate, perhaps, to them offering and opening up to you about something.
Do you think technology might change the way that you operate a little bit or the way the role? will become for mortgage agents and brokers. Hopefully it doesn't take away any of that personalization. We can use the technology to do more of that, but interested to hear what you think. to hear what you think. That's funny. So Roy and I were having a conversation about this the other day.
So he likes the AI concept of how we're going to apply it in our business and the robo calling with your own voice that's available, I think at some level, you know, to reach out to a client with your voice being AI. To me, it takes away the humanity piece, you know, because a voice never sounds like your voice exactly. And people will see that, but that's almost desensitizing society. I'm not there yet. I'm not saying it doesn't have a place.
I'm sure my son, Nathan, who's 15, when he's 25 or 30, there'll be common practice, you know, having a son this age and what they do with TikTok, Instagram, instant gratification. This is a whole new, you know. But I'm concerned it desensitizes what I believe is important, is the humanity piece. Yeah, and you know what? I definitely agree with that.
The whole concept of trying to reach out to somebody with your own voice or even an avatar that looks exactly like you, I think that there's a creep factor there, and it's disingenuous. I wouldn't mind if I knew what I was talking to was an AI. But I don't want it to be like in Kane's voice or my kid's voice or somebody who's real. I want to know that it's an AI. And yeah, I'm talking to this and it's giving me a great interaction.
But yeah, I'm not going to do a robocall with an AI generated voice of mine. Right. I just, I can't get myself to do that. But here's the thing, right? A lot of the young people today, they might think that's cool or who knows how they're thinking. There definitely is a cool factor. And I think you can combine what you guys are saying into, so if you're doing a robo call, right away in the call, you say, hey, this is the robo cane. I want you to know that I'm not real.
If you want to talk to the real cane, you can do that anytime. This is pretty cool, right? Let's have a chat. That's what I mean about being disingenuous, This is pretty cool, right? Let's have a chat. That's what I mean about being disingenuous, where you're trying to have it imitate your voice or be you and try to trick somebody into thinking that I'm dealing with you. I think that's... creepy. But I think what you just said, Cain, there is an innovative way to take that and use it.
And then that's cool. It's almost funny. I'm RoboCain. It'd be funny, I'm RoboCain. It'd be funny, right? Just to finish off that thought, in my opinion, anytime you're engaging with any AI that isn't human, I think it should always clarify what it is. when it's engaging with a human so that it can make a decision how it wants to talk to it.
They might choose the AI when they want to talk about stuff that is, for example, very personal and they don't want a human to know, or maybe it's very emotional for them and they can find some security in talking to a machine. There's that element as well that, you know, I've read a couple of things that they're already seeing that with therapy and some other stuff. So there's interesting bits there anyway.
is, Yeah. And I was just going to last point to add to that in terms of, you know, voice messages, these robocalls I've incorporated in the last like four or five months, voice notes. Like I'll do a voice message. And then I'll follow the voice note on the text because people don't listen to voice messages anymore. So this robo text, for example, saying what you said, Cain, because I like that idea as well. Hey, this is, you know, robo Cain. Want to speak to Cain? Give us a call.
But we just want to say hi or follow up. It's a two year follow up, whatever the case may be. But the texting aspect, because people, man, you know, they're on their phone. Yeah. year Comes in and that's easier than, oh, I got a voice message. Like, you know, who wants to listen to that? know, who wants to listen to that? Especially like my generation, I'm 38. My generation and younger, especially with text, this is why everyone's going to WhatsApp and doing text.
It works, right? People get better response rate. I think there's a lot to be said for that. For sure. We're closing in on the hour. closing in on the hour. It's the best hour I've ever spent. the best hour I've ever spent. Yeah, my friend. my friend. It's the same here. Time flies when you're having fun, right? And this has been a wonderful conversation. Mike, we thank you so much for being so candid. From our hearts, you're well -known in the industry as a phenomenally nice guy and honest.
And we wish you all the success with DNA Lending. And we'll hopefully have you back on so you can tell us about your travels going through starting up with DNA and hiring new people. And we'd love to touch base with you again, maybe down the road and see how things have gone. And by the time our listeners get this, by the time our listeners get this, you'll probably already be up and running. So where can the listeners find you? Do you have a website?
Do you have a handle? I have a website, handle? I have a website, dnalendinggroup .com. You can reach me at my phone number directly. I'm always on my phone, 416 -357 -4003. Or of course, email at mike at dnalendinggroup .com. And before we sign off, guys, I love you very much. Absolute honor to be on your podcast. I will, with your permission. follow up with you guys and have you be guests on my podcast. Would love to. love to. Yeah, love to. So I have your permission. love to.
So I have your permission. So I will make sure I set that up. And I appreciate you guys a great deal. Mike, you're fantastic. It's been a lot of fun and look forward to do it again. Looking forward to being on yours. And yeah, it'll be a lot of fun. Thanks, Mike.