Bonus Episode: Bowie's Guitarist Carlos Alomar on Recording 'Young Americans' and the Berlin Trilogy, Co-Writing 'Fame' and Funking Up David's Music for 30 Years

musical collaborators. They first came together in New York in four when David was producing songs for the British singer Lulu. Carlos was working as a session guitarist at the time and was called into play on the recording dates. The two got to talking about soul and R and B, which was something that well, you could say, Carlos knew a thing or two about. He cut his teeth as one of the youngest players ever in the Apollo Theater's house band, leading the stints backing James Brown, Chuck Berry

and Wilson Pickett Oh while still in his teens. Carlos's influence helped inspire David to take his famous trip to Philadelphia to record the soul Steve to Young Americans record. To get the sound, David tapped Carlos, who in turn assembled a group of players that included his wife, singer Robin Clark, and also his old school friend Luther Vandros. So began a musical partnership that would last nearly thirty years and a friendship that would last until David's death.

Carlos played on eleven of David's albums, more than any other musician aside from pianist Mike Garson. These include classics like Station a Station, Scary Monsters, and the Berlin Trilogy. He was a member of the so called Damn Trio, the rhythm section that gave a funk edge to David's electro experimentations with Brian Eno. Carlos also accompanied David on numerous world tours, often acting as musical director. He even co wrote Bowie's first number one, Fame, along with David

and a guy called John Lennon. His list of non Bowie accomplishments is formidable. He's played on something like thirty two gold or platinum records by the likes of Paul McCartney, Mick Jagger, Carly Simon, Mark Ronson, and Alicia Keys. Though insanely busy, he was gracious enough to take time out of his weekend to speak with me and gonna reflect on his music and memories with David. I hope you enjoy before we dive into all your history with David

and everything. What is your your Desert Island number one guitar? I gotta ask. Yeah, Uh yeah, I only played with Bowie and I've only used it with Bowie, so it goes from the beginning to the end. So I'll probably do very in the same way, untouched by other hands other than Bowie. One of my my small ship gets to the man, you know, personal do you? Yeah? You still keep it in a special place in your house and no, it's deep deep in the in the in the cave here in my place, all insured, and the

appreciation is going up and up and up. And leave it to my daughter one day. It's a great little guitar. I use it for songwriting and composition. It just has because it was made for me. My hand just slips into it and uh, you know, you have one of those guitars that you can just twank, you know, around in the house and it just feels right and it fits your fingers and everything is right there, and so sometimes you kind of feel like I feel a little sad today. Let me take out my old Olympic and

just it mavered a little bit. It's you know, it's kind of friendly in its home, and I don't have to record with it. I just kind of use it sometimes to inspire just for you. Yeah, that's the best. That's the best, precious. There's certain esoterics, like for my students, I actually asked them to please give their guitar and name. And there's something about when you cherish something that you

actually want to. I mean, you have a cat who won't give you the time of day, but you will give it a name, and you know you cherish that cat, even if it scratches you. Really just give a ship. He doesn't even know your name, but that's just the nature of the animal. I think that once my students start giving their instruments names, then they go to them a little bit more. That's necessary. So tell me how

did this journey start for you? How did the son of a Pentecostal minister wind up playing with with the chuck Berry and James Brown and Wilson picking not to mention David. Well, after all these years, you have to kind of turn it around, and it's kind of critical think and say what was it like for them working

with me? So then I have to kind of look back and say, well, look, I kind of started this this guitar thing because I only know a few chords, and so I started developing this way of playing that allowed me to play chords. But Jimmy Hendrix inspired me by saying, do you know how much damage I could do with one loose finger? And so I realized, although I'm playing a cord, I got a loose finger. So I started like playing rhythm lead, and it got me

interested in a lot of different things. Just look, my father died when I was fourteen, so it was a little difficult, and the only thing that I had was the guitar. So I continued playing the church, but I wanted to get more chords, and once I got Malbay Guitar Dictionary, that was it. And then my music started getting a little bit funky, and how I used to get put in discipline where the ladies would say, hey, that's not Christian music. You know, that doesn't sound like

and I'm like, uh, it sounds good to me. And then and so I started getting that kind of religious thing about are you playing like God's chords? Are you playing somebody else's? And that totally just said, you know what I'm in for the music with all do this. And from then on my father gave me his blessing

and to let music. Do you know what? I followed, And so you can understand what it's like to have a kid that has an instrument and he gets his instrument and he starts training for the long of it, and they noticed him and he's really dedicated. So I went down to the Apollo Theater when it was my father died, and that's when I got I joined this troop of uh you know, singers that were being trained in the basement of the Apollo Theater by the Apollo management.

Little did I know that it was the beginning of my training. And I was encouraged by all the people that came to the power. So I kept playing my guitar and I got in and then the guy that was the battlely that he heard me, He's like, hey, you're pretty good. Then he went I'm playing for the amateur hour, come on and I'll have you playing. I'm like I was seventeen and they used to hide me in the basement. But I didn't have a I didn't have a union call, and uh and to that I

was able to kind of rise up. And then I played in the house band, and then you know, people would come to play as the Phillips and all the grace of the Apollo Theater. Who's playing in the background Collins, you know? And uh, you know, we recently did a documentary called by Whatever Means Necessary for the Epics channel, and it kind of highlights you, Robert and I as young kids, you know, at the Apollo in the sixties. And basically I started getting calls. You know, his kid

is really good. And I started playing after our joints with the with the same guy, George Stuffs that was the bandleader for the little for the band that we had down there. And the once I started playing, my name just started going around. Yeah. I started getting some gigs and studios and jingle houses, and the next thing I knew, I was with the band called the main Ingredient.

Everybody Plays. The Fool was the hit song we had a nineteen seventy Team seventy seventy one around there, and I went on and I went on the road with them. You know, we've got all those kind of like the Soul reviews and here about you remember those like the main Ingredient, the o Js, the Spinners, the Detroit Dunrods, like all of the bands, you know, all the bands used to work. So you know, I started playing around there and I got my gad my name that throwing

around a lot. Somebody calls me have hey, chunk Barry And he's a guitar player. You know, he's playing at uh what was it right, Playland in up New York? Can you get sure? Get there with him? Can you? You know? He tells us what I when I swim my guitar sideways, you stopped. When I swim my guitar up and down, you start. Okay, here we go boys, And I'm like, are you gonna rehearse? He turns around and he says, you don't rehearse rock and roll sound.

And you know I fashioned my guitar style. If you notice, you know, when I want my band to stop, I'll take that headstock and just up and down would stop. And when I want them to do a cut out, go sideways. So a lot of the conducting that I do is based on getting hit with that truth, unadulterated fact given to you by Chuck Berry. You don't rehearse rock and roll sudden. You know, if you stopping, you go that's it and uh and that's it. My name

got passed around. One day, I got a phone call from our CIA that they needed a guitar player for the tracks from this girl named Lulu that they were doing it. And I knew who Lulu was because I swept to show we loved with Sydney Portier and I was like, Wow, she's really a really good blue out Suns and I love to work with her. But come to find out, it wasn't her at all. It was a resal tracks for the session and that was me

and the producer, David Bowie. So, as you can see, meeting these people for me has just been like somebody calls I don't know anybody's cellphone number, you know, somebody calls me up there, somebody get my numb Hey you free for it, blah blah blah blah, yeah, sure, yeah, okay, who's that? I don't know? Some personut for the BGS, some group. Who's that Carly Simon, I don't know, Peter, Paula, Mary.

And so you get phone calls and you always say yes, and that's how you become called as it's all it's all continuum. Well, I've been blessed, and so what do I know? M blessed with an incredible man talent. I should add, well that that's a given as it's If I look at it as a god given talent, then I don't recognize it as being anything other than what I do. And the fact that it joins so well with other people need Oh my god, if I could get that all my life. Oh wait a minute, I

do get that all my life. Do you see what I mean? Open to it? Yeah, there is a certain amount of graciousness that you have to have and looking at everything that really is good for you. I mean, obviously could a few bad things in there, and my speech to my concept would probably be a worse. But I don't really look at that. I kind of just look at Wow, that was cool, And so that registers on a good part. And that's the way I look at life, just a good part. When when David first

walked in and you first met him. What were your first first impressions of him? Were you aware of his music at all? Yeah, I think I've seen something maybe like one of those Wolfman was a Wolfman? Yeah, one of the Midnight special where you saw him in that ziggy. I think that that was about the first recollection of anything from Bowie. But it was nothing. I mean I was doing James Brown and the main e Greed and the children Circuits. Well, you know, I saw it, but

I guess it didn't register. I mean, did it register at anybody. No, he was just this guy from London who dredged up in funny clothes. What was what's the spider from ours? What was your your initial point of musical connection between the two of you? When did you actually really meet on like a spiritual level? Oh? Well, you know, he asked me to work with him after we did those tracks, and I was already working with the main ingredients, so, I mean he wasn't paying any money.

He's he was poor then, and uh, I kept working with the main ingredient and uh, but we hung out and I said, listen, why don't you come to Hallo oh man? Listen. He did an interview once, so he said something like, ah, you know, I really like some music. I met this black guy named Carlos, just Carlos, you know, he's really funky and you know, and I want that kind of music, you know. And this is David Bowie.

When we had first first first met um, so we kind of hung out with sing through the Apollo Theater. He met Richard Pryor who cursed him out and told him to get the funk out of his room, which David was really happy about being kicked out by Richard Pryor Um. And then we just hung out and then he asked me to do Diamond Dogs. Couldn't do that, but we still hung out, you know. Then he came back and he was doing the Tower Theater and all that stuff, and at that point I was really like, yeah,

this is the nast guy. I really want to work with him. So you know why he went to Philadelphia. He was going to get the Sound of Philadelphia to work with him, and they turned them down. And that's when he said, man, I don't know what to do and they turned me down and I don't have a band, and I was like, dude, I got a band, That's all I do all day along. Yeah, and that's what I was able to bring an amer Kassan and uh lose the Van drass, my wife, Robin, Diane Sumner, Anthony

Hinton Um later on amer Kissan and Dennis Davis. So you know, I kind of brought in my whole R and B trip and that's when the magic started happening. Instead of taking uns as the spiders from Mars might do when you know they bring their families, they have a budget from the record company. They're working their stuff out. Nah, we were season musicians. We kicked out the first We must have done that album in two weeks. David had to struggle to have some kind of inspiration and the

song two Songs a day boom boom boom. So David was scuffling to just like write those words any thought that he had, you know, holding holding I want to put these thoughts down, and everybody would take a nap, a cat nap, like four hours. The time he's at two o'clock in the morning, He's ready for you to

do something. Oh hold on him and at least splash the water on my face and in doing it at that breaknext speed Young Americans was achieved and then a little later, with a little studio magic, the two songs and the sessions side of Electric Lady came about. And so that was the basic premiss of the young Americans. Was there ever a sense of with you or everyone you're working with with with with Luther and Robert, was

there a sense of skepticism for David? Like, Hey, I've I've worked with James Brown, I've worked with Chuck Berry. Who's this guy from England who can just thinks he can come here and pull off doing you know that the Soul record. Was there ever a sense of kind of like I don't know skepticism the right word, but but kind of wondering if if he could pull the sound off um regretively, and I would take a certain amount of ego which you can't really happen you're doing

this kind of business. If you're a lead singer, I can understand a competitive nature granting you that, But when you're background singers and support cruise and rhythm sections, Man, you go in there and if it takes me to give you fifteen different versions of what you said you wanted, I'll keep switching until we achieved something that neither of

us alone could ever have achieved. When the rhythm section goes into work, your one harmonious unit and you have act accordity, the first thing you have to do is self must be gotten out of the picture, and you have to open up your ears. And then when you hear yourself inside the music, then play your instrument. Did David know what he wanted to hear? Or did he kind of pick and choose? Did you play Okay, I'm gonna try it like this. Okay, No, that's not it.

I'm gonna try it a little differently. I'm gonna try this riff. I'm gonna try it with this syncopated rhythm. And then he would go, oh, that's it, that's it. Or did he kind of did he have a general there's a lot of there's a lot of different methodologies that are used depending on what confidence you have and what you've built. In the beginning, there was just young Americans. So here's a little groove. Can you do anything with that? Boom? Done? Next?

Give me you know that a little groovy thing? Give me that call? Like a Chinese men, you walk from column may choofing company and you put them together and then he has the rights look right now, you have these kids that have these drum machines, and they have all these loops and all these groups. If you have three or four groups and you put them together, there's your song. But you didn't have that in nineteen seventy four.

Which you did have is a rhythm section that is primed to be able to lock in a group and leave holes. You see, unlike a band with session musicians, we know how to leave a hole for the next part. Other people they just grab whatever. They every look they ever played, They're gonna play it in every song they ever play everything they've ever played. They put all their crap that they play on your song. No professional musicians listen and they know and they got it. And you

know what happens when we nail it. We all bust out laughing. Just expression of spontaneous expression of all there is so as far as that David have this, that David have that, everything is a work in progress. The minute you hit the first note, there is no look. You start something. Do you want to telp me? What's going to be at the end? Impossible? You hear this. Look when you were playing it, you played boom boom, boom,

boom boom boom boom boom. But this base player you hired place boom don't to be doom doom do Are you gonna you just hired Jimmy Hendricks to play on your record. You're gonna tell him what to play? Do you understand that? No, you just sit back and let the magic happen. David was smart enough to just shut the hell up and let that magic happen right in front, and then get your ass moving and get some lyrics that means something. And you gotta catch up because all

the keys are higher than you expected. Now you you have to reach for everything. You gotta. You gotta big because nothing is comfortable. Listen to the range of Young Americans, and you'll never hear any album that he shows that depth, in that height of range. Wow, I mean yeah, I just thinking about now in a song like you know right or something too. I mean you can hear it comes through too. I mean that he's pushing it. Somebody,

somebody up there likes me. Listen to that song and you stop from the bottom knowing you go to the bottom, and he goes, do do do do do do do? He has got Anthony Newly to Eddie Kendricks up there in the house. Yeah. So anyway, so much been young Americans and how how people? How do I get to be with those people? You mentioned the the elect Electric Ladies sessions. Am I correct in saying that the the first song that that you ever credited for on on record is also a co write with not only David

Bowie but John Lennon. Uh yeah, but uh no, let's put it the first commercial hit, hey, because I did write some other songs with other people that didn't do anything. Let's get credit are credit is due. But it's the first commercial hit and for a young kids, you know what, I think maybe twenty one or some twenty two that was amazing. And look, let's understand there there are some inherent problems with being a Puerto Rican guy with an afro.

And that is the minute I started hearing all the press. I kept hearing Fame written by John Leonard and David Bowie. Favor written by John Leonard and David Bowie. And you can understand how that feels. Until finally, you know who came up and stepped up to the plate. David No, no, no, Carlos came up with that riff and Carlos was responsible for that. No no, we just did this. No no,

Carlos did all that. No, no no. And so that was as always He's always been a champion for righteousness, and so to that end, he stepped up to the plate and made that correction. But it wasn't like it wasn't you know. Yes, it was a wonderful thing to have that honor, but then again, to feel that immediate, immediate a kickback, it's just like hello, Hello, I'm here, I can hear you. Hello. That's bad. They've been rough for a minute. And then I started getting checks every day.

Ship fair fair. I mean, what was John like? Well, I mean just being in a studio with him, I can't even imagine what was it like being being around him watching him work. You know, you don't get very much recollections from they. Celebrities have a tendency to a kind of uh what is it called, so they kind

of eliminate their faces. The John comes in as a very good, garious, funny guy who has no problem making jokes and being funny in order to alleviate his own super presence in the room, and so his congeniality kind of makes it hard for you to get anything out of here, because it's just hey, guys, how are you doing? All right? Hey buddy? Wow, wow, great? Hey. You know, there's nothing to grab onto it the fact that, oh

my god, he's a celebrity. What is he supposed to do, like walking like he has a cloak on or something. And so we're working and so he's like, hey, John, how you doing? Call us cool? That's the way we are in the studio. Dude, I know what you did. But I hear you play a guitar. Let's play some guitar, you know. So he stepped in there, he plays a little something something on it. You know, it's all right, but we can only use the beginning, and even the

beginning is inverted, so it comes in back chords. So when you hear a fear, you hear the suction kind of piano. That's that's it. It's a guitar turned backwards. After that, there's very little that you hear of it. Wow. I didn't do that, yeah, but then you do. Here. Every once in a while when he was in the studio, he would put his chin down on his guitar and as he breathe out, m h there it is and such. Uh. David was like, you fame man, and I'm like, dude,

I don't know what you've been smoking. I hear whatever you say. And uh, you know, I think that that's the way that reference was made to Fame and John and all that. But again, you know, this is the folklore that's created by David, which I totally love. I could certainly back up most of that. But whether it inspired the name or whether that was his participatient that gave it his credit, these are all things that we

do remember. It was very anxious to me and work with John, so having his name associated with John was the initial intent and to that and by whatever means necessary. Truly, it must have been special just hearing it back all complete for the first time, just all you all. It was for them, yes, for them me. I was just playing funk like I always do. They heard and they were like, oh my god, I can't believe you turn that into that. I'm like, yeah, that's what I do. Yeah,

And they was like glaateful that was this guitar. It's done, And I was like cool. How did you notice this method of songwriting change from from young Americans to to something like station to station or especially low because it sounds like it went from coming in with relatively full, complete songs to more sort of building it up in the studio. Well it appears that way, but if you go a song by song, if you look at station in the station, station and stations three categories, it's still

young Americans. I mean, while there's the wind and word on a wing, I mean, are those about as soulful as you can get? Aren't they? They really are an extension of young Americans. And then when you want to go pop Golden Years and TVC Won five, I mean, what is that? It's just like you know, Golden Years was.

It's like people he wanted to you know this song called on Broadway, you know, an old do ops, Well that was later on, but it was old do op song first, but it had the same car changes still but he you say less, it's the same as they say the New York less right abroad, the same card changes. So we changed it up a little bit, but again the references made only to indicate that was really part of young Americans. And then to have those two pop songs in there, you know, they're all right, but they

certainly the mark a new direction. But now you look at Stay well, stay is John, I'm only dancing, but you can you can't really hear it because you don't hear them back to back. But if you sing John, I'm on the dance of the stage in the same song, even the music is the same progressions. People just don't realize. He said, look, hey, call us, that was a great song. Can you do a new arrangement on that song for me? Oh? Yes, sure, David, So I do a new erangement on a song. He

doesn't change the lyrics. He's got his whole new song. I mean, these are techniques. If you're asking about techniques at people are not awera um. And then you have the big one stations, the station Well stations, the station we I just found out that in disco music they'll pay you extra money if your song is longer than three minutes. And I think that single was like three minutes and twenty seconds. Like if you got three minutes and forty seconds or four minutes and twenty seconds, you

get paid double. And so when we found that out, they was like really, I said, yeah. So the introduction that was let me make an mistration bast be for you the introduction to stay, to stay from the station, that must be like four minutes more boom, more money, more money, more money, which is kind of cool you think about it. That's why on that album, I think, what do you get like six songs or seven songs because they're all like you think it to be wrong.

Can you tell me how the Damn Trio came together? Well, Damn Trio started after after Young Americans, I started doing Broadway and I was on the Rocky Hardor Picture Show. And so by doing the Rocky Horror Pictures Show, I was already into rock and roll before David asked me the two stations the station. So when we got together, I had already had Denis Davis um because we had worked together on some of the stuff in Um Electric Lady, and so Dennis was working with another catch, George Murray,

and so we actually to work together. So when we had a chance that George Murray was brought in to replace Amir Cassan, another friends of mine, and so ma'am, when we got together, it was like George Murray was like the lead guitar player, but he played bass, you know what I mean, So he instead of holding down

the bottom by playing one note. He would walk with the bass like a black guitar player playing riffs, and so that kind of opened this thing up to have this very mechanical lockdown groove that was still funky but created all this movement. While David was elated because in essence he wanted to replicate at the electronic essence of craft work and have that mechanical thing, but he wanted it done by a funk rhythm section. So here is

the the anomaly that no one even looks at. Here is a super super white bread with orange hair being backed by all black ridalm sections for all these years, don't you find it amazing that they're still talking about the spiders from ours? And yeah, they never talked about the Damn Trio, who is responsible for so many amazing transformations from station to station to low scary ones and all that amazing stuff was driven by them, Damn Trio.

And so you know, during that time, David had all these other bands, you know, the Tin Machines, and to us it was is that other type of either rock, industrial rock or just noise rock. And so the Damn Trio had a totally different brand for David. So whenever David left the Damn Trio, that's when he went back to being the other David that wasn't the funky soul for David. So that is the legacy of the Damn Trio, the the trio that back David through all of those periods.

Mind you, all the time the credit was actually being given to the you know, to the brian Enos and to the Robert Shrimps, and to the Asian Blues and to the all the other people that would come as invited soloists and all that stuff. But as a rhythm section, the people that locked down David Bowie during all those years was Dennis Davis, Paulos Alamar and George Murray, the Damn Trio. And you think of the work that you mentioned low a moment ago. I mean just the sound

on that is so unique, so groundbreaking. What what were those sessions like for you? Was that were they relatively similar to to Station the Station and and what the work you've done with them prior or was it completely different? Well, let's understand that is the interview is about my perspective, So let's understand what was going on during these periods. Remember when I told you before I even this station.

In the station, I was already doing rock and Roll on Broadway with Tim Curry and Meat Love and everything, doing the Rocky Horror Picture Shop. It just so happens that when David is asking me to go on tour for Station and Station and create all these thoughts, I wanted to bring studio quality equipment onto the road. I

don't want to use for all pedals. I don't want to use stomp boxes, and so I devised a totally stereo system that used rack mounted units from the studio, and I brought those rack mounted nineteenis units to touring with David Bowie. Now, mind you, this is all during the time of Frank Zappa and Jerry Garcia and all these American monsters doing the same thing. But the one

that was doing it first was me. And while I was doing that, when the eighties first came up, I started working with the synthesizer guitars, you know, before they started coming out with the Mode guitar and all those other things. So me and these summers a few other people were working in those areas. So this technological thing that happened wasn't foreign to me. Look, even when I met Bowie in the seventies. When he first met me, I already showed him that I could play all of

Jimmy Hendrix. Are you experiens? Igin Henderson went crazy. I am really learned all the parts. When I met David Bowie, not only did you know I could play with James Brown all that stuff, but when he darted me playing Jimmy Hendrix, he was like, holy shit, who are you dude? And so the electronic thing for me was a major explosion. When the Macintosh Plus came out, I took it on the road and created a guitar. I sent deside of the album with a mac Plus when the first came out.

So this issue of technology was always into it man. Always the same way that they talked to to Tony Visconti about bringing pedals and doing that, I was doing exactly the same thing, you know, stringing three and four amplifiers all in a row, each with a different effect, and then putting a microphone in the middle and seeing

what it sounds like. I mean, we had time to do all kind of experiments like that, Visconti and I and even you know, so going into the studio to do low was just another way for us to finally let ourselves just fly. But it was a little different than everything else because of the methodologies that Brian, you know, Boyd, brought with him. How was it working with him? Was it? Uh? Was it a challenge? I know in some interviews have given you said that he was like, you're working with

a professor. Yes, it was a challenge because the challenge is what you want. You don't want a problem, so I make it taxes you to use everything you have to try to get out of that situation. For instance, we know that we have certain methodologies. Let's call him again like this, Hey, I like the verse of the chorus once the car is gonna happen? Is there a bridge in this song? Hey? Where's the introduction? How you never asked how long is the classical song? That's true.

You don't wait for a chorus to repeat itself in a classical song, do you. So? You see you're already stepping into an arena where you're thinking a verse a chorus. Hey, a bridge would be nice here. Hey, you should go to the four just I love the blues songs go. These things are inherently finding your brain when you walk into a session. What happens if it's a classical section? What use is my rock and roll? Nonzen is gonna do me there? Or flamenco. Oh my god, let's say

it's a waltz. I am so screwed. So here Brian, you know, lays out all these things that are more linear. They go on for a while. In fact, they go around for a while, so much that you can't actually hear a beat. A wait a minute, just like classical music, there is no tempo, and so all you hear is one, two, three for this constant person calling numbers. And you know, Brian says, hey, Carlos, when you get to fifty seven,

can you play a little something? Follow me until you get to like seventy five, And you're going, what Because all he let you here was like two instruments, just enough so you can get some kind of key. You're not even hearing all forty two tracks of whatever the hell you guys hitten from you. So you play along with it and you try to do its best you can, you know why, You're pretty sidify with it. But so he presses that button, then all the other tracks, but

I mean, you, holy ship, where what the hell is that. Wow, that is so cool and so limiting what you hear so that you can get the maximum out of somebody is a different methodology than letting them hear everything and then letting them just shoot all over everything that you just put down, you know, mess up all your wholes is everything? They have a practice just throw it on your You know that thanks a certain finesse to not get in the way, and the best way of doing

it is usually methodologies that they're right used to. That's all putting things in their mind. How about it? He says. Listen, listen, Carlos, like you know something I want you to You know, sometimes you can some wrong notes. I need for you to accent the wrong notes. Accent the wrong notes. What the hell? The kind of instructions are those? First of all, I wasn't playing any wrong notes. Now I gotta make some wrong notes. Can you see how you're messing with

somebody's mindful they even touch the instrument. This is the type of logic and reason and strategies that you use when you're trying to use Brian, you know strategies and that grown to get accustomed to them because they allow you to look through things like through a prison. There's no one particular way. All you gotta do is move slightly to the left or just slightly askew, and you

seem through a different prison and everything just changes. So these are kind of chameleon lessons you learned from Bowie. They get traded off. Sometimes you learn the same thing from people like Pop. You know you work with him. What's saying, Hey, if I right more than twenty three words is a horrible song. Um, he'll say things like, look, if you're gonna be wrong, be loud and wrong. I mean, these are fucking great things they just conveiled in these people.

Was there a childlike sense to him? Yeah, but there's also an adult that will come chomping down on you if you cross the line. Ye have those figures around him in when he was working or no, no, no, Your personal space and your personal solitude. Look, when you're a piece for yourself, you find that pieces exactly what you want and what happens If somebody steps into your space and disturbs your peace, will you allow it or will you ask them to step out of your space?

Mm hmm. You see that takes power, but it doesn't mean that you have to brand it as being powerful. You can be keenly by nature, but not by by title or by truth, you know. So he tries to act as royal as he can, and try to, but he always maintains I'm David Bowie and you see me is David Bowie. Should I digress and turn myself into David Jones, then the mystery of David Bowie's gone. And I don't want you to meet David Jones. That's none

of your damn business. So you protected, you protected with whimsey. You protected with humor. John Lennon did it artfully by making himself humorous and everybody else at ease. I mean a lot of people do it a lot of ways until you get to know them. And when you get to know them and you realize, wow, he's really heavy, you know what sounds like he's playing around. Now, ask on the right question you'll get some seriousness out of him. And look, quite honestly, you know, very very very well.

We can talk about all the whimsy, we can talk about all the you know, the curiosity and the funniness, but damnit, David Bowie was a serious person who will be taken seriously by all means, and he has no regrets to over putting you in your place, whether it has to do with black music, black people, rock and roll, you're genre, your yen, your your gayness, your boldness, your anything. You know full well he was well voiced, an opinionated

so Yang and Yang man Yan Yang. Was there a time that you knew him that he seemed the most at peace? Uh, it's a moving target. Man. Everything looks at peace until you find out the ship at the family year later, and then he had a gold record and everything seems a piece again, and then you find out that, come on, there are certain Look, I know I was at peace when he got married. I was at peace for him, if that's any way of telling

you whether I felt he was at peace. That's the only time I felt that he was at piece that I know. I felt that he was at peace when he married Iman. I was just like the way of the world was off my shoulders. I don't have to protect him from anybody. That's a beautiful failing for a friend. That must have been just really nice to to feel that, because it seems like peace was something that was was hard one for him. It seemed like you have to

refine the right person. It's not an issue of finding somebody. Look, maybe could drop a dime and marry anybody. It's somebody that would actually want you and you want them and knowing you might not you don't you know what it feels like. Don't mess it up, man, don't mess it up. Don't show too much of the David. Don't close off too much of the David. Don't put that wall down and say I'm David Bowie. This is another world, man, This is the area of love, this stuff that songs

are written about. So yeah, I felt very much. If he's when he got married, that's beautiful there. Hey, I meant to say happy happy anniversary to you and Robin by the way, and I missed a few months. I'm sorry, but congratulations. We go on, are you kidding? Every day? We look? If you want to say, marthon sixty year is you got to treat that woman right, and that woman better treat you right. And the secret is just say yes to everything like they don't hold that to anything.

And always buy flowers when you screw up, and then give them for her so that she can give them back to you. That was work, y'all, I'm telling you don't get any and don't bring up sour subjects. Yeah, oh yeah, you gott she will you see you gotta know what the game and went to take? Oh man, I mean I guess, I mean, I know this is probably a question that maybe sounds corny, but I mean, is there what's the most important thing that you feel you you learned from your your time with David like that?

How did you grow? Mm hmm. Well there's a lot. So it's not easy because growth takes moments and stored memories. So climbing up that ladder, it gets hard to find out which wrong was the one. I think the consistency of our relationship of mutual dependency and respect, I think is what takes a business relationship into a personal relationship into a friendship. Again, there's a lot of people that say he's my friend. Hey, Hey, I met call us in seventy four. I had a drink with him. I've

known him for fifty years. He's my friend. I mean, he doesn't even know my middle name. I've never invited him to to do anything, but so you get I mean, I get callbacks. David wants me to come back for the second album. Oh wow, I'm thrilled. I never expected it. Hey, because we got for a fourth album. Oh my god, I'm thrilled. I didn't expect it. Never expecting it and always getting it. It's a wonderful feeling because you never let down. So never let me down. It's a perfect

song to to culminate what our relationship was. We never ever, ever let ourselves down to each other. When my wife got shick and I had to finally say goodbye to David, David said, what are you waiting for? You know? It was like there was no letdown ever about anything. And so that's uh, that's basically that song probably says it all. Just appreciating one another. Yeah, that's it. Marriages that it comes to many different forms. We had a good marriage

and look, we didn't even get that. We didn't even get divorced. We just had suffer. And I'm for example, I'm a creative person who wants to share with people. And I'm sure there's a lot of people listening right now to this that that feel the same way. What do you think David would say to us people who are are creative and are you know, searching for their voice and and are are are working towards that with sharing that mm hmm, let goal be dragged mm hmmmm.

I really believe that change is so important that if you know David, then you maybe you know thirteen different David's. If you could understand that, then you could understand that we're not meant to stay in one place. We can change. Even when we thought that we were solid and who we were and we were all powerful, you can still change.

I mean, he took change to the ultimate you know, forms that of somewhat of the phoenix, you know what I mean, so transformational form, you know, just constantly evolving. What can I say? That's the nature of davorite changes. Off the Record is a production of I Heart Radio. If you liked what you heard, please subscribe and leave us a review. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.