Tramell Tillman

and oh am my giddy today I am. I am very excited. Um. You should know this that recently I have become obsessed with my new favorite show, Severance on Apple TV Plus. Now. If you're not familiar with Severance, one, you should be. But two. It's about a tech company called Lumen that severs employees work and home lives, essentially

creating two versions of well, one person. It's a very fascinating and interesting take on office life, and man, it goes places that you would never expect, which brings me to why I'm giddy. Today's guest, the Amazing Trammel Tillman. Now he plays the super creepy but somehow charming lumen supervisor Seth mill Check his character is. He has some

of the most interesting scenes in the whole series. And I am not gonna spoil too much today, but if you don't want to know anything about anything that happens in the show, maybe go watch it and then come back and then you'll run back here to listen to this episode. We dive into severance casting filming some of those iconic scenes. Did anyone say m d E? And we discuss the optics and design of the show and so much more. We'll also get into Trammel's background and

why he believes that art changes lives. It is my sincere pleasure to introduce to all of you my new bestie, Trammel Tillman. Bubble and Squeak. I love it, Bubble and Squeak on Bubble and Squeaker Cookie at every month left over from the nut before travel. What is happening, my friend? What's going on? I am so happy that you're here. I've come clean about something. I love this show so much.

I cannot tell you how much I was traveling and I finished the series, and I'm like, at thirty five, thou feet and I start firing off this missive email, I'm like, we gotta get tromel. I told Wendy Malick, the genius Wendy Malick and John Ham and some people that I've had the opportunity to work with before and know, and I told them that I started this podcast because

I wanted to talk to them like I wanted. I wanted to get really deep in terms of their process and their story and and the moments that define them. But really it's I wanted to talk to you. I didn't know it at the time, but a little bit, but after after after seeing Severance, it was really about about you. We're gonna talk plenty about Severance, but I really wanted to learn a little bit about you and what sort of helped define you in in your earlier life and in your career and how you sort of

got to where you are today. I understand you grew up in in Maryland? Is that right? I did? I did. I grew up in Largo, Maryland, UM, which is in p g County, and at the time in the eighties, it's was one of the richest black counties in America, and there's still pockets of PG County that that hold a high population of black affluents in that area. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a hop, skip and a jump into d C from d C. Okay, a lot of politicians there, tons.

I mean, I was probably neighbors with a few of them, you know, like so far away. You know, there's a scene of a lot of excellence, if you will, in that community. I was neighbors with entrepreneurs and around principles and teachers, educators, you know, were like so everything was about growth, expansion and excellence. Okay, when you were ten years old, this is how the story goes. You were in a church Christmas production and you first got the

bug about being an actor. Is that right? That's true. That's true. I was a very shy kid, and my mom recognized talent that I have of performing, and I would always perform by myself alone. She thought that it was very important for me to be involved in the church because she grew up in the church as did

my father. There was an opportunity for her to be a part of a play, and she felt this was wonderful because there's so many characters in my family, and we all liked the Spotlight in one way or the other, whether or not we admit it, you know, um. And with that, they needed someone to play her son, and what better person to play her son than so right exactly? You know, I was kicking and screaming, you know, Brian, I did not want to do it. I cried, I

boo hooed, But there was nowhere around it. Can't tell mom, no, especially age of ten. And I got on that stage and I had one line in one direction to say hello and sit on the couch. And from that moment it clicked. Really I didn't know what this thing was that that got me, but it did right then in the moment, and I wanted to do more of it. So then did you start auditioning for plays? You started doing plays as a young person. I continue within the church.

I got my start in the church, doing a lot of theater, and eventually, you know, veering out and doing professional served as an extra on the wire. Yes you remember that show, well, yes, I remember that show. It's one of the one of the greatest shows of all time. How old were you when that happen? Yeah, I was about that age, I was about that age, I sat probably two rolls behind Wendell Pierce. It was a scene

at a baseball game, you know. Wendell Pierce and I cannot remember the other actors he was sitting next to, but they were having a conversation and I was thinking, I'm sitting a couple of rows behind Wendel Pierce. Is that this is really cool? And tried not to still focus actors work. Yeah, it's amazing how quickly you You're no longer sitting two rows behind Wendell Pierce. If you can, if you're a distraction, I mean right right absolutely? Now

I read you. You ended up going to Xavier University there in Louisiana. You were there when Hurricane Katrina decimated the city, which I want to talk about. But you were studying to become an orthopedic surgeon. Is this is this? Is this right? Yes? That is correct. So at this point you had given up, or at least temporarily put on hold, your desire to be an actor, and you wanted to be a smarty pants basically did that I

wanted to be at Yeah? Well, the thing was, I was told at a young age that I would never make it. You know, they said that only two percent of actors or people aspiring to become actors have a thriving career in it. And I didn't want to wait tables for the rest of my life. That's what I was told. I was encouraged to find a career that would foster a steady financial lifestyle. So I was told that I should get into computers, into business, law, or medicine.

I enjoyed science. I thought it was really cool. I love the idea of helping people, so that was the route that I figured I would go in. And I was around so many doctors, especially black doctors, and they were always the pinnacle of success in the community. So that was the route I wanted to go in, or so I thought. But what was interesting, Brian, is that performing was always there. You know, even when I was

in high school, I was still performing. When I was at Xavier University, I got sucked into doing a musical, a random musical, like for a play at Xavier University. I still very much loved it, but I knew that it wasn't something that was gonna feed me financially, and I was scared to walk into it. So I said, you know, being a doctor isn't so bad it could you know, it's not like it's hard, right, So that's the easiest path you could take, right, Like, what, it's

no problem totally. It's funny. My dad was a doctor, and so for me it was the reverse. I was like, yeah, that seems like a lot of school. I don't know, that seems like that seems like a lot of school. And I did not have the interest in science, and it sounds like you did. So yeah, I decided pretty young that that was not for me. So explained to me what happened, So the hurricane had did Xavier shut down or did you decide you needed to get out

of there? Or what happened? So, okay, we gotta back up. So there's a whole meeting story within that. So while I was at Xavier University, I was studying biology PREMIT. I was doing better in biology PREMIT than many of my colleagues who are doctors. Now that's right, that's that's wild. But I hated chemistry LAP. I had a kim lab and I hated it. I did not want to do this. And the best thing about kim lab was the fact

that I could watch the color's check age. So from there I had decided that there's there's gotta be something else that I can do. But then I remembered in high school I was very involved in like doing social events, so I figured, okay, publicity. So I changed my major into mass communications, so I would figure that I would get into advertising and publicity and so and so forth

and so on. Unfortunately, we hit a financial snag. My mom had gave me a phone call and said, I can no longer help you financially with college because we lost our home, homeless work closed, basically we lost everything. With that, I had to find a way to finance school. Xavier University, while it's a wonderful university, was just so out of my pocket because it's a private Catholic school,

you know. So my mom suggested, along with my sister who was in Mississippi, Jackson, Mississippi, to go to Jackson State because they have a communications program you could be a part of and it's cheaper. I was hesitant about that. I wanted to go to Howard University. I got accepted into Howard University, but I didn't get a big enough scholarship to go to Howard University. So right before Katrina hit. I said, you know, I'll go to Jackson State. I'll give it a year, but then I'm gonna come back

to Xavier because I really love it there. So I ended up going to Jackson State. Hurricane Katrina came along, and it not only hit Xavier, not only hit New Orleans, but it came up to Jackson, Mississippi. So it's almost like the storm just followed me right on up, you know. And that's not funny. I don't know why I laughed at that. It was the image. It was yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, but it was devastating. Was also incredibly ironic.

And what was interesting is that while I was at Jackson State, there was some students that came up to Jackson State from Xavier to continue their education because they were offering those kind of programs across Xavier students. They were most sister schools that were set up. You know, there are people who went to Brown, Harvard, you know, Howard and the like. So I had friends from Xavier that were experiencing Jackson State along with me, which made

it a great time. And I ended up falling in love with Jackson State and have such an appreciation for the school and the education the environment there. Yeah, and you graduated from there. I did. I graduated summa cum laude Jackson State University. See there's this body pants thing again. I knew it. Yeah. So you graduate from Jackson State with your mass communications degree and then what you decide that maybe you're not done with acting. No, it's still there.

The acting bug is is still around. And while I was while I was that Jackson State, I was connected to the head of the acting department, Dr Mark G. Henderson. And I remember while I was doing a speech competition with my fraternity, he came along and helped me with the speech competition, ended up winning the competition. I'm under his tutelage, and he asked me, why are you not

part of the drama program here at Jackson State. And at that time, Brian, because I believed and getting heavily involved. That was my upbringing to get involved as much as you can. I was in s g A. I was part of the Out five Fraternity Incorporated organization. I was part of the Kids College Freedom School projects, so I was working with kids. I also had part time jobs. I had so much going on, I didn't have time to do any acting and I was involved in the

church at Jackson, Mississippi, New Horizon Church. You know, I don't have time. What When I graduated, I got offered a job working with kids college Freedom School Project, and as wonderful as those kids were, I hated being there. And I hated being there because I wasn't doing what I love to do. And what I love to do was form, tell stories, act, seeing dance. Right. So, I remember having a conversation with Dr Mark G. Henderson and he sat me down and he said, Trammel, you don't

look happy. Are you happy? I said no, Why are you not happy? He asked me, and he said, if I had to wager our guest, I don't think that you are doing the thing that you love to do. You light up when it comes to performing. And I said, well, I can't do this. I'm not gonna have the money for this. I'm not going to have this. I'm not talented enough. I don't you know all of these excuses. And then he said, are you done? And I said, yes,

Go do the thing that you love to do. Go do the thing that you love to do, and everything else will fall into place. And he encouraged me to go to grad school. And in order to getting grad school you have to audition, right, So then in order to audition, I was a part of urda's which is the United Residents Theater Association casting call for graduate schools.

So I auditioned for that in Chicago. Ended up getting a lot of attention from the grad school programs there, got the attention from the University of Iowa, received a full scholarship to go to the University of Iowa. At the last minute, Brian, when I was supposed to get on the plane to leave or get in the car and leave, I don't even know how I was going to get to Iowa. The financial portion fell through, and it wasn't from the institution what it was. It was

for me. All of a sudden, like all the money was gone. I called the head of the program at the University of Iowa and said, listen, this is my situation. He said, we've gave We've given you all the money we can give you. I don't know how we can help you. He asked me, said Terrell, are you coming? And I said, I don't know how to get there. He said, well, I have to resend the offer. So after the entire church community congratulated me on leaving to

go the University of Iowa. I ended up not going to the University of Iowa and just stayed in Jackson, Mississippi and worked and worked and worked until I could have enough money to get out of Jackson, Mississippi to go pursue my dreams on another level. But it gave me an opportunity, Brian, because that I was able to work with New Stage Theater to get some regional theater credits.

I was able to work with j V Productions and they offered me more training and more the legs to grow and find to my craft experience experience, Yes, yeah, And how long were you there? How how long did you end up done staying in Jackson. I got there two thousand five and I left in two thousand eleven. And you went to Tennessee and I went to Tennessee. And I went to Tennessee because the head of acting there saw me at Urda's in two thousand nine and

thought I was too green, which he was right. I didn't want to admit a time, but he was right. He reached out to me early two thousand eleven and said, hey, we may I don't know if you remember me from the University of Tennessee, but we may have a slot for you. I said, Hey, okay, let's go. This is my opportunity. It's my ticket to move on and get and get some grad food training. Two weeks go by,

I didn't hear from him. He then reaches out and says to me, Oh, I'm sorry, the position has been filled. We don't have a slot for you. So I'm devastated. So that I get I put myself on this plan, Brian, I said, this is what I'm gonna do. I am gonna save up money and I'm gonna put myself on a little tour. I'm gonna go to New York. I'm gonna go to Atlanta, I'm gonna go to New Orleans, and I'm gonna submit my resume and just see what happens.

So I'm saving I'm taking jobs after jobs after jobs after job, and would you believe June of two thousand and eleven, who calls me the head of acting at the University of Tennessee. Edie says to me, Hi, I don't know if you remember me, but I'm the head of acting at the University Tennessee. I've been thinking about you for six months. What do you mean if I remember you, Edie said. He said, listen, I know I kind of pulled your leg earlier, but I'm serious. We

do a slot. You would start in the fall eleven. If you're interested, come on up to Tennessee and let's go from there and audition and let's go from there. So I said, you know what, let's give it a shot. And in July I went up there and I auditioned and they offered me a slot right then on the spot. That's awesome. M What did grad school gift to you? I would say confidence. I would say the development of

a thick skin. Because my graduate program was connected to the Clarence Brown Theater, so it's a regional theater and part of their mission is to connect students with professional artists. So we had the opportunity to work with professional artists all across the country and work with professtorve, directors, artisans, producers, so forth and so on. And with that, it taught me how to prepare myself in the rehearsal room, how to conduct myself backstage, how to treat my fellow cast members,

how to speak to a director. Grad school gave me a plethora of tools to add to my arsenal, the toolbox, speaking of severance. A lot of what I learned in grad school I utilized in crafting this role, in crafting milk check. So I'm I'm sure you t is really glad to hear that. Well, I've talked about this before, so I'm not gonna I'm not gonna hammer the point, but I think that what you're talking about so many

people don't get. And you're speaking specifically about the theater, but obviously it applies to film and television as well as that experience, that confidence, that knowing how to behave in certain situations. That just breeds confidence with the people other people that you're working for or working with, showing up on time, knowing how to behave, what your job is and what the specific processes you know, for a variety of directors. I think that experience. You can't say

enough about about that. Oh yeah, it strengthens you like you're going, like you're leading with Everyone is not the same everyone, every process is different. You know, I've been on a few sets now and every director operates very differently. And being able to manage different energies and and and different egos if you will, and different projects within that is crucial. Yeah. I have an old friend. I'm not going to mention his name in case he would get embarrassed,

but he called me. He had gotten a cameo in a movie, had a few scenes, and he said, do you have any tricks for memorizing lines? I mean, this is not an actor. And I said, well, first of all, you need to know this that you're going to know every single word and you're gonna show up and they're gonna tell you where to stand and how to move, and the camera is going to be there, and you're gonna have fourteen people staring at you behind that camera

and you're not going to remember. So as well as you think you know the words, you don't, you don't. I gave him a couple of tricks. I don't even know if it worked out, but but yeah, that that is is so difficult. Um, you you graduate from Tennessee, where do you decide your home should be? Well, I haven't decided where my home should be at that time, but I do go to New York. Okay, okay, in New York because at that time I didn't know what

I should do. You know, the program did not have a lot of connections in l A. You know, so our showcase was in New York, and the head of acting, Jed Diamond at the University of Tennessee, suggested that I go to New York. He's like, listen, go to New York. Give it five years. If you don't like it, you can leave. Five years is a hell of a long time to be in a place that you are nervous to be in. I was terrified about going to New York. I didn't want to have seventeen roommates in a shoe

box apartment eating Ramen noodles every night. I was like, I just did not want to do that, because that was what I was told would happen as an actor if you go to New York. But when I went to showcase and I had a couple of days to just absorb the city and watch people navigate these spaces and realize that these people are at the same age as me or younger than me, and they're doing fine, I said, oh, well, I could do this. I can make this happen, like, let's go, you know, And it

worked out. It was one of the best decisions I've ever made. Nice by the way, I couldn't do it. I found other places. I always would go to New York when I had a job, But yeah, that that image for me as well. I couldn't get over it. I couldn't get over it. So I'm I'm certainly glad you did. I mean, it's not for everybody. Um, you make your Broadway debut in twenty nineteen in the Great Society starring Well. I don't know if living legend is

too much, but certainly an American and European gem. Brian Cox tell me about that experience of landing that role and working with him. I was for lower to be a part of this production. Was an absolute fan of his, especially with Succession. I was a little terrified because he holds he does not hold back in succession. But he's a he's a delight, he's a teddy bear. He's just the sweetest, genuine man that had the pleasure of working

with and so brave Eve. I think this project. We put it up and maybe about three weeks Brian was committed to being off book. They were suggesting like maybe he should be on book for to play lb J but he said, no, I want to be completely off book. So he took the charge and he was an absolute inspiration for me. And uh, it was a wonderful, trying production in the in the context of the story that

was being told. You know, it was a companion piece to All the Way, to Robert Shenkins All the Way, and that peace ends in triumph, whereas the Great Society ends in tragedy. And what we were watching on stage, or what the story we were telling on stage and mirrored what was happening in the world in so it was hard to take it and it was hard to live in as well. But the cast was one. They

were wonderful. Well. I don't know if you are aware of this, this would have been when you were in school, But about being off book, I had the opportunity to do the American premiere of a Connor McPherson play called Rum and Vodka. I loved it. It was one of the best experiences in my life. He had the world premiere. I'm pretty sure it ended up starting in London and came here of another Connor McPherson one man show, which was genius if you don't know it, and even longer.

I think it's full two hours. So doing a scripted play for two hours and you're the only one on stage, he learning lines must not be him, I guess. I guess that's the lesson. Don't don't get in a learning line contest with Brian Cox. I think you don't. You don't. You don't want that heat at all. So you're working at this point, you're doing other productions and you start doing some stuff in film and television. Now, how was

that transition for you? You know, mostly, if not exclusively, a theater actor, theater trained actor, and transitioning and beginning to work in film and television. How how was that transition for you? And it was that something that you knew that you wanted to do or ye, talk to me a little bit about that. It took a different set of skills for film and television because I hadn't had a lot of experience with that. My experience was

the theater. And although I remember watching a lot of television, probably too much television and film, uh, and reenacting the scenes that I would see there, did you do that? Oh god? Yes, Oh my god. Me and my best friend in Lago, Maryland, we would re enact scenes all the time. That's fascinating. I will just share this with you. Greg Daniels, who was the creator of the Office, he told me a story about as a writer doing sort of the same thing, except he would transcribe the words.

He would write down the scripted words in television, sort of like what you're talking about, for you to begin to hear the rhythms and and acting these things down. He would do it so that he could see the structure and began to study the structure of how scenes were put together, how episodes were put together. So I find that very interesting. Sorry to interrupt you, but no, no, no, no,

that's that's fantastic. That's that's amazing. I thought we were just being kids, but literally, you know, we're like But it was also specific scenes. I remember we would me and my friend we would re enact bad Boys. Remember that scene where Martin Layres is about to give run over and Will Smith comes in the middle of the street and picks them up and takes him off to the other side, and he said, don't ever say that

I wasn't there for you. I We would re enact that scene constantly, and if anyone is listening, Please don't do what we did, because we would actually wait till the traffic came up the hill and then trying to do it. We do it with live cars. That's not what. No, God, don't do don't follow my example. Please follow no at least. Yeah, that was a game that I used to play, and it was one time I got hit by a car. But that's another story. But so don't do don't do

what I did. Don't do that. Don't do that. What was the question I said? I got off topic. We so, yeah, it's okay. I took us off the rails. I'm sure you know you had so much experience at this point, mirroring quite frankly again my experience of theater, and then you begin to transition into film and television, and just talking about that transition, did you get an agent? Did you start working? How was that for you that time?

So when I moved to New York in while we were doing a showcase, I got the attention of an agent who wants to with now Jenna Winette of both Winette Agency. Yeah, I love Jenna. I loved the team there and continue doing theater because I was my wheelhouse. But always wanted to dip my toe into television, and the only way to get into it, or the only way to get good at it, is you have to get into it. And then you know, it's kind of like this wheel around, you know. You know, they only

want to hire you unless you got the credit. You know, to get credit, you gotta work that kind of thing. So but I was able to do a small part in Difficult People where I was the good Samaritan, uh and that was fun. And then did diet Land and Hunters and so with that. Because I didn't have the training in television and film, I used my future colleagues because I didn't know them at the time, as basically masterclasses.

I would study people on screen. I would watch television film and just watch how they moved there eyes, how they speak, how they hold their heads, intonation, everything, and use that as my class when I couldn't afford to go to these three classes with some of these top casting directors and acting teachers, you know, and being one set, having the experience, and you know, I was able to get stronger and more confident and understand how to translate

ideas and emotions on screen that may or may not work on stage. Because there are different mediums. Right, Your audience in theater maybe three hundred, whereas your audience on film maybe one, So you have to kind of translate. It's it's all learning. Was all learning from me. How did you find out about SAT France? Is this an audition that came in from your agent? Oh my gosh, Brian. So I was doing The Great Society two thousand nineteen, right, we had just got wind that we were going to close.

We closed early, unfortunately, and I remember going in and auditioning for this piece, and I had no idea what this was. All I knew is that Ben Stiller was directing, and I said, okay, sure, why not, let's give it a shot. I went in an audition for it. Fine. Didn't really hear back. Probably about two weeks later. I think it was right before the holidays. I hear that they that I've been selected for a callback to meet with Ben Stiller and Dan Rickson, the writer and creative.

So January comes around, I'm getting ready to go to my callback audition, and I am running like hell to get there on time. I get on the bus, the buses running late. The Google Maps tells me that I should wait for another bus, but I don't have time to wait for another bus, so I'm running down through this industrial neighborhood of the Bronx. There's people driving with old refrigerators on carts, passing me, looking at me like I'm crazy because I have this fool suit on and

I'm sweating, you know. I turned the corner and there's these group of guys. One guy looks at me and say, hey, you want to see me kick this dude's ass. And I was like, okay, maybe later when I come back, and they laughed. And then I'm across the bridge, running across this bridge like trying to get there. I get

to the lot. The audition happens to be on the other side of the lot, which is an acre long, so I'm running down down to the other side of the studio and I finally get there, and it turns out they were running late, so no one knew that I was late, so it was fine. And I remember doing the audition and making Ben laugh and I said that has to be a good sign I made that this is huge. And he told me that they have to do auditions in l a Um so they'll see

what happens. And then I don't hear anything for a while, I hear nothing, and eventually Rachel Tennor calls my manager Tigren and says, oh, you know, Tremille got the role right, Like wait, like just like going off, just like yeah, you know you got it. You know he booked it right. Yeah, he's great. You know he's great. He's great. Yeah, he got it. And the deer calls me and I'm like jumping up and down or running around at the apartment. And then the rest, as I say, is history. Yeah

that's so. By the way, Rachel Tennor shout out to Rachel Tennor, who's one of the best. Yes, fantastic. So how much of Severance before you started filming? How many episodes were you able to see? Was it U is the first one? Like normal? Or or did you know the journey? I guess that's a better question. How much

of his journey did you know before you started filming? Well, so this is what's really interesting, because we started right before the pandemic was right, So it was like and I remember after a fitting getting the note that we were shutting down for two weeks, and in the back of my mind, I said, this is no way it's gonna be two weeks. There's no way it's gonna be two weeks. Then six months later we picked back up.

I start in October. So by that time I got the script and I started to understand the premise of the show, what was happening, and you know, so forth and so on. What was interesting for me, it was really key, was really trying to figure out who the hell is milk Check in the midst of all of this, you know, and how does he feel into this world, and what is he gaining from this? And you know,

what is his motivations behind it? So that was my homework to kind of really build a character that makes sense in this world, right, you know, in the world that doesn't make sense? Right? Yes, though it makes so

much sense to me. But yeah, so all right, So let me ask you this specifically, how much did Dan or and or Ben share with you about where your character was going or did you just more talk about just that first episode At that time, there was definitely a conversation between Ben, Dan and I. They did not fill me in about where he's going. It was more it felt more like improv So what was helpful for

me was understanding where he came from. That was a process in a discussion between myself and and then like I had my own backstory, and then they had a backstory, and then we kind of, you know, conferred about that, and then we went from there, which was really fun and how interesting our backstories were very similar, and reading it was just you really just kind of you played what was on the page. Now. This was also an exercise where the character mill Check knew more than Trammel. Yes, right,

that's right. Tramail has no idea what the doats are about where Miss Casey is going. I have no idea, but mil Check you know what I mean? You know, so it's like all of these things that you know, you really have to just dive in and make a choice as to what does mil Check no and what does he not know? Which makes it fun. It's so fun.

And I think you said something that is what I was really thinking about the second time watching it through, which is is your brilliance in the show is you are always in the moment and whatever your specific job is,

you are fully committed to that in the moment. And that's what's so disarming about it because nobody is that way, like, right, in real life you're always no. But I'm serious, like you're always guarded or putting on a facade, or and not that mill chick may not be putting on a facade. I wrote this down. There is an efficiency to you. There is empathy you there you are empathetic and caring at times, and you're also a psychopath, like all three

things simultaneously. At least within most episodes, you can do those things. And I was thinking, it's like, I'll be honest, I couldn't think of the third part, but it isn't a weird way. And I started thinking, like, is this why I'm responding so strongly to him? You are in a way part Dwight Shrewt Like there is a there is a commitment to the job, maybe better than like

a job efficient Dwight Shrewd slash prison guard. Because I'm fascinated by, I'm sorry, just the mind fuck of the situation where you are dealing with people who have the same intelligence, the same general knowledge that they should have, but they have no history except the history with you, and you're like all of their mommies and Daddy's rolled into one in a way, right, I mean, you know you are introducing them and guiding them through this new world.

It's fascinating the way that everyone responds to you throughout the journey of the show and how you interact with them. And I think that what you said is so key is that you are in the moment, always in the moment, and performing the job that you have. Absolutely, were you ever surprised about his journey? As you continued, were you ever like, wait, that's what it was later on? Um, I'm trying to remember what it was like when I first got the script versus like the first episode. I

was absolutely intrigued. And as an actor, you know, we do our part to fill in the blax right, because we want to create these full dimensional beings, right, because that's what makes it fun to play and also fun to watch. But as these ideas that I had, or these thoughts or ways about mill check, they all kind of faded away as I stepped through as I continue to go through the season. You know, the music dance experience. Yeah, we're going to talk about the music dance experience at

a second. Don't don't jump that, No, you're not up. But there's references to the break room Adam Scott's character is sent to the break room, takes over for Helly, you know at one moment, and so you see this room, but you don't know what happens in there. So until you got the script for what happens in the break room, you didn't know because the breakroom scene didn't materialize until episode was an episode three into four. I believe that's right,

that's that's exactly, that's exactly what. So if you're reading episode one and two, I believe there has made mention of the break room, there is or made mention of Mr Millichick is not as nice he can you know, he's yes, nice all the time. Yes, that's right. So I was like, there's those clues that pop up, but oh,

we don't know how real it is. And so the day I'm opened and then you see it, you know, you know, it's occurring to me like I'm sounding like a rube who's never worked in television before, thinking that you had all the scripts before you started. I am well aware that that's not normally how it works. The world here, though, is so fascinating and confusing. It makes me even more impressed with your performance that you were not aware of everything at least that was going to

come in the future. I say empathy, which some people could argue with if they've seen the show, because I feel like, you know, unlike Cobel, played by the genius Patricia Arquette, who is in my favorite underrated I always call it my favorite underrated movie of all time true romance, Cobell is not nice. There is not anything nice or sympathetic about her, including um, without giving any spoilers away, how she behaves in the audie world as we call it.

But I find I find a humanity within you at times that is that's heartbreaking for me, and I think makes it even more terrifying. I want to ask you this, how many employees do you think are severed at luman Oh my gosh, you're gonna get me in trouble. No, like, how many do you think there are? It's so hard for me to answer that question because this world is so unexpected. And wait a minute, so you know, but

you can't tell. Is that what you're saying. I can't even answer that likes it's like, you know, it's like, it's it's so bizarre, I will say, I will say, and this is what I've actually loved about reading, listening, and experiencing people's theories at this show. Usually whatever we think is happening is not happening. Yeah, that's a bullshit answer that. Listen, that's a bull don't You can't bullshit answer me. I'm not a reporter. I'm not a reporter

that you can give a bullshit answer to Listen. If anyone understands I can't answer that question, I'll accept that. Let me let me, let me, let me ask this in another way. And I'm trying to think about things that Cobell said, like do you think that this is your group because you're around a lot, But again, who knows? You're right? Maybe you've got seventy people you're dealing with. You're sure, you sure spend a lot of time with

macro data refinement. Well you also got to remember you also got to remember this O and D. No, of course, no, no, no, of course, I know there's not just four. I apologize, yes, of course, but it doesn't seem like you are with them in the same way. So maybe you are. I don't know. I mean, it's it can be misleading because we only focus on m DR. You know what I mean, right, And there there's a lot of time they're working that

we don't see. By the way, I was involved for ten years in the television show where we saw us do work exactly zero percent of the time. So I get I get that, Like when was paper actually sold? I'm not sure we only see the moments in severance where they're not actually taking the numbers. All right, I'll bail on that. M d E. The music dance experience, Uh, the most talked about seeing look at you right now, he's dancing right in front of me in a similarly

creepy way than he danced. Is that your go to? Are those your go to moves? Or where they improvised? In the moment, it was totally improvised, So that means that was your Those are your go to moves, Those are mill checks go to moves. You know that's not That's not you know what I'm saying. I'm more of a hip guy. Yes, this was more of a this was more of a shoulder chicken. I was thinking, it's a little chicken e. But someone you have, you have seen him behave in such a horrifying and that is

what is unsettling about your performance. And in some regards to show. You have seen him behave in such an unsettling way towards these people, and yet in this moment, everyone has five minutes to just dance and have fun. A little frivolity goes a long way. I want to ask you about the turtleneck that suddenly appears. Is that is that mil Chick's relaxed look? You know, I think the music dance experience brings a different flavor, so he wants to, you know, dress it down a little bit.

Like you also got to remember, like, dude, yes, mill Chick has been doing some very questionable things and in a moral things, but he's under a lot of pressure too. You know, things went south once Helly came along and Pete disappeared, and he's had to kind of he's had to basically fix it. He had to be the fixer. And every every episode things just get worse and worse and worse and worse. So this music dance experience is just as much for him as it is for them.

So I think it's like I need to let my hair down a little bit, I need to let loose. I'm gonna take my tie off and I'm gonna put on this turtleneck because I like this turtleneck. I look good in this turtleneck. It helps me move, it helps you move, obviously, and he let's go, yeah, it's a it's a stretchable fabric. But I have this, uh, this water cup. It's basically a classic clear plastic. It is the most utilitarian water glass in the world. It's just

that there. It is. It's clear, there's nothing about it. And yet if you push the bottom of the water glass there are flashing lights show up and make the water turn like red and green and purple. This was

given to one of my children. I don't know why we have this water glass, but I was thinking about the music dance experience, and in some ways, Lumen in that way, it's everything is so clean, lines utilitarian, and ben still are by the way, like he emphasizes this in his direction, so well, everything is that old, like big chunky sixties seventies. I don't even know everything plugs in.

It's all so utilitarian. And then it's like Lumens, like, you know, we want everything like this because nobody has a history. We are just living here in the moment. But just every once in a while, let's turn on the light on the bottom of the water glass and let it get a little funky. For no reason. I love that idea. I just I love it talking about being severed. The show is political. It is fascinating to me.

We talk all the time about work life separation or integration or the balance between work and your home life. Talk to me a little bit about your thinking about Severed and the ramifications of that, or the positives of that, or why you think that Dan chose that. You know, I get the question a lot of whether or not I would go through the severed procedure, and I enthusiastically say no, no, of course it's not for me, But there is there's an understanding behind it, like I get it.

Does that empathy we use that word before, where people we're going through so much pain or turmoil, frustration, or where we need a little relief and we don't want to take that turmoil into work, as we see with Mark, you know, he's grieving. So with that, I can understand why people need to just that we need to just

put it away. Myself as an actor and how I pull so much of my own history, my own personal experiences into my work, I wouldn't be able to do that if I was severed and informs so much of what we do. I don't know of any actor who

would be able to do that, you know, a effectively. Now, if I was an accountant, you know, maybe you know, it's you know, all different story that that will hope, that that richness, you know, all of that, you know, the good, the bad, the ugly, the in between, the uncertainty, all of that. It feeds so much of who we are,

and it influences our decisions. I wouldn't want to take that away, but I if there were family members and friends who wanted to do that, you know, of course I would be supportive of their decisions, but it's not for me. Yeah, there's something that you just said that triggered this thought, and I'm at least going to share it with you. I don't know that it fully applies, but you know, in life, kind of what I talked

about before, there's always a facade, or not always. There's often a facade, or you behave differently around different groups of people. When you're interacting with someone, your objectives may be quite different from that person's objectives, even though you're both pretending at the same time. That you both want the same things, Like right, this is a part of life, this negotiating moments. And I don't know if it fully relates,

but I just had a conversation with Jenna Elfman. She talked about she loves the moment on set when someone calls action because it's it's only in that moment. It's the only time she feels like in life where you have a hundred hundreds of people who are all everyone agrees on what the objective is until someone says cut. Everyone is working toward getting the shot, about playing your

specific role. You know what you're playing. The wardrobe people knows the look, the makeup people knows whether there's sweat on the brow or not. Like the lighting, everyone is looking for the greatest angle. And it's all of these people working together with no outside objectives happening in that moment, and it's one of the only times in life that everybody is sort of on the same page. And she loves that. And I told her I would never forget it.

And I'm thinking about it somehow now, thinking about the severed world and and separating those two things, and it seems to me that that's what you know, the Egans and Lumen are are sort of going for anyway, Let's try to create an environment where there is no other history outside of it, so that for these eight hours, everyone is working to do just one thing because they don't know of anything else, right, which is such a

sick way to achieve that goal. But it seems to me that there's something in it there, right, like, let's eliminate all history, all opinion, all politics, all religion, all everything, and just put these people there and have them do a job. That's a very idealistic way of looking at it that I think that would be true if there wasn't the Egan philosophies. You know, there's so many of these images and these sayings. And of course that's that's

where the threat of the book from Mark's brother in law. Yes, that's the threat of when Ricken's book shows up, because now these are new ideas and these are new concepts, and we can't have outside philosophies. There's that idealistic idea, But with the whole I guess mind bending, mind control, it kind of has a different edge to it. Yeah, for sure. And part of the missive email that I wrote from thirty five thousand feet after finishing your show, I I really said, this is the new The Office

in a way. I mean obvious, Lee, It's totally different. The tone is totally different, the style is totally different. It's not it's very funny to me, but it's not a comedy at all, but in a weird way. The central character of Michael Scott on The Office, his entire journey was about finding work life balance, like that is what it was for him, and that the Office existed as his personal life. He had nothing else outside of it.

There's echoes, there's similar things sort of happening as our favorite employees at at Lumen and Macro Data Refinement began to search for for other things. I find that interesting. Obviously I'm not the only one who is enjoying severance. It's gotten a lot of critical acclaim. How has that impacted you? I've been blown away how people have embraced this show. You've been in television, you know, there's no specific formula. We never know if a show is gonna

work or if it's going to be successful. I knew that I wanted to be a part of it because it was different. It's a new idea. There's so many elements to it. There's comedy, there's there's a romance, there's thriller, there's psychological elements to it. It's it's fantastic, but to see how many people have flocked to it and have found themselves implicated and it is really rewarding. And also

like the top pieces that have surfaced. You know, New York Times wrote an article about it, The l A Times, you know, all of these local newspapers have talked about blogs have gone about severance and what it has meant to them, and it's a part of a national conversation and even international as well. I didn't realize how it impacted me individually until I was in l A at a f y C event and I remember getting out

of the car. We had Harmony Gold, and I remember getting out of the car, by the way, that's for your consideration, that's a for your consideration, and I'm I'm letting everyone knows, yes, we're talking MS here now, which I've promised to get trammel one by the way. So so I remember getting out of the car and seeing a group of people behind the gate standing with what looked like to me signs. So immediately in my mind. I'm thinking this is a protest. They're protesting. Oh gosh,

what's go I was. I was like, okay, alright, it's a revolution, let's go, let's raise our I walk. I walk into the venue in this like grassy area that has a bar and all these tables, and the people are standing outside the gate and they're screaming our names. They're screaming our names. And immediately I go into shock because I'm thinking, what is going on? What's happening? What you know? They're calling my name? And I was like, do I owe somebody money? Like somebody coming get me?

Like what is having it like? And my manager calls me and he says, hey, can you come get me. I'm on the other side of the gate. So I go get him and I look in his eyes and he's like, Tromel, are you okay? You like you look like your friends with And I was like, you know, come on in. So I talked to him. I was like, this is intense. They started screaming my name and I'm like I don't know what to do. And it's like

and he says, Tramel, they're fans. They're fans of you, and they're of the show that they love your autographed and I'm like, wait what and so totally over my head, I'm like thinking, this is the upheaval and you know, social unrest. So I eventually calmed down and I go over and I signed and and take pictures behind the gate. And it was wonderful. There was sweet everyone was great, and it had nothing to do with them. It was

just me, you know, responding to it. But you know, here I was in this space of enjoying the animmity and now you're walking around in the streets of l A and people recognize you if they recognize you, because I'm a little fortunate here because I can. I have a mask one so you can't see if I have my mustache, and my hair is different and my energy as milk Check is different than Tramil, so I can kind of blend in a little bit. Yeah, yeah, good luck,

good luck with that. Although I guess you're a little better than I am. Here's my one piece of advice for you, because you're going to get this a lot. Yes, you can thank me later when someone comes up to you and says, are you milk Check? Do me a favor. I'm starting a revolution just answer sometimes that's all you need to say is sometimes because it's the most awkward question in the world, because I all, I struggle with this still to this day. It's like, well, yes, I

am hello. They're like, it's so like weird saying no. It's accurate, but still the rude. So I say, I say sometimes you talked earlier about studying your future colleagues to try to hone your craft in film and television. I mean, you're working alongside well, some of my heroes in the business as well, Christopher Walkin, Patricia Arquette, John Tuturo, just to name three out of a whole slew. How has that been for you working with those people that

you used to watch every day to get better. It's humbling. There are moments where I am completely awestruck that this is happening, you know. And what's so beautiful is that each of those persons that you named and everyone else the part of this cast has been an absolute delight And they don't have to be you know, there's just kind, genuine, warm, loving people and I am so grateful to not just be a part of this show, but to also just share space with these beings. Just sit, stand back and

sit and watch them play. Some of my favorite scenes on set is when I say nothing and I'm watching them work. It's fantastic. One that's awesome, and too, that's so great to hear. I know you do a lot of advocacy work. Talk to me a little bit about what the arts has done for you and why it's so important for you and the work that you do. The arts saved my life. Man. It gave me a voice when I felt I didn't have a voice. It gave me a sense of empathy and compassion for other

people's situations. It taught me to listen. The arts taught me to listen to people, how to listen. I dealt with, and I still deal with, depression and anxiety and PTSD, and the arts gives me a footing, a grounding, a way to connect with people in a way that I don't think I would have had. I remember when I was doing a Christmas Carol at the Clarence Brown Theater. It was the same time as the Sandy Hook shooting.

I was playing Bob Pratchett and I will never forget the scene of Christmas Yet to Come where Tiny Tim dies And before that show I remember looking at CNN and watching this massacre and watching these children being carted away, and the absolute anguish of the faces of the teachers and the parents, and I wept in my dressing room for twenty minutes before I did that show, and when we did Christmas Yet to Come, when that scene came up, I kept thinking about those stretchers and those bodies, and

those families that would never get to hug their children again. And I walked on stage and immediately I was filled with grief and a pain that I wasn't really too familiar with. And in that audience, it was as if we had never experienced this moment in Christmas Carol before. I mean Christmas Care as a show that people come with their families and they watch it all the time

and they know what's coming. But it was in this moment where I felt that we all breathed together as a community and mourned the loss of those children and those teachers, right there on that stage, and no one said a word, no one had to authenticate the moment.

It was just right there. And I remember at the corner of my eye the gentleman playing Scrooge, David Cordmaier was weeping in a way I've never seen David Cortermyer week And at the end he came up to me and he said, Christmas yet to come, and I nodded and he nodded, and we never said anything else about it from there, And it was that moment that I realized the transformative power of theater of storytelling, of how it connects all of us and unites people of many

different generations. Social economic status is racial identities, sexual identities, orientations, It connects us. And my hope is that with my continuation in the arts, that we will establish a platform for people to have conversations much like Severance incorporations, and conversations about well being and mental health and gun control and abortion and LGBT rights and educational equity, all of that. That's why I do what I do, and I love it, and I believe in the power of what it can do.

That's awesome well for what it's worth me too, So thank you for that and that story. I wish you nothing but the best in your future in your continuing role on Severance. Your performance is genius. You are a chameleon, but a delightful chameleon that it makes it impossible for me at least to keep my eyes off you. So I wish you all of the best in your upcoming f y see events. It's it's my new favorite show on television and you are a huge part of that.

So thank you so much, thank you for joining me, and good luck to you and uh, I can't wait. I can't wait for new episodes. Yeah, me too, looking forward to it. Thank you so much, Brian, Thanks T Dramel. It was such a pleasure talking to you today, meeting you and of course hearing about severance. Trust me when I say that I will be rewatching this show until season two comes out. I can't get enough, and I

swear I noticed something new every single time. Listeners, I cannot recommend seven rints to you more, so make sure to check it out if you haven't already. And as always, thank you for joining me today on Off the Beat. I will see you soon for another conversation, same time, same place, next week. Can't wait. Off the Beat is hosted an executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive producer Langley. Our producers are Diego Tapia, Liz Hayes,

Emily Carr and Hannah Harris. Our talent producer is Ryan Papa Zachary. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak performed by my great friend Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed by seth Olandski