Ricky Gervais

Ricky was the co creator of the British version of the Office along with Stephen Merchant, who we spoke to last week, and Ricky, in addition to creating the show, also played David Brent, the British counterpart and the inspiration for Michael Scott, who was somehow possibly even more cringe e than Michael was. I didn't think it was possible either,

but only Ricky himself could pull that off. Now, obviously, Ricky is a very, very busy man, and when I interviewed him, he was doing a ton of press for another show he created called Afterlife, which I am obsessed with that show. I absolutely love it. Everyone. You should go and watch it if you haven't um. But Ricky was doing so many TV appearances at the time that when I spoke to him, he thought that this was

another video interview, which it was not. So here I am, I'm lounging in I'm in my sweatpants, and Ricky is looking sharp, he's looking camera ready, he's looking Gervais sexy, is how I like to call it. Um, So just keep that image in your head as you listen. Um. Anyway, I am totally psyched that I got a chance to talk to him, and I so appreciate him making the time for us. So sit back, relax and enjoy the

incomparable Ricky Gervais. Bubble and Squeak. I love it. Bubble and Squeak on Bubble and Squeaker cookie every month, left over from the night before. Um, do you know what we're doing here? Isn't a podcast about the history of the Yeah? So, like the ten second version is basically the Office American version since two thousand seventeen, it's the number one streaming show in the world. It has over a hundred and thirty five billion minutes that have been

stre stream in essentially two years. And so what we're doing is going back and trying to figure out why this has happened. Um. Yeah, Well, I mean it's a testament to all the hard work, hard work that went into it, and the rioting and the acting, the fact that it's about everyday people and about everything exactly. All right, I'm just going to start at the beginning and I'll

ask you questions. So what were the what were the influences that had you and you know, Stephen talked to me a little bit about you know, how you guys got to know each other and you hired him as as your assistant the radio station. Well, what were some of the influences that you guys had. Well, it goes back before that, It goes back before that. I had David Frient as a character. Um, you know a few

years before that. In fact, I worked in an office for like ten years, and obviously that's the biggest influence real life, being part of it of a working office, and you know, you start noticing that the fact that you're thrown together with random people and you have to get along. So you know, that was one theme. Um. Coupled with that. Throughout the nineties, I watched a lot of those docu soaps that were happening here where ordinary

people got their fifteen minutes of fame. Um. There was one called Airline and Airport, and you know, all that, you know, the hotel, and sort of they'd make celebrities out of these normal people because they were just ordinary people. But they were funny and at work and and of course now fames a different beasts. Now they'd get an agent and they try and get their own game show and make the most of it, and you know, but then it was sort of it was they were quite quaint.

But I did notice that people started to be obsessed with fame in the nineties, and of course that's just got worse and worse, worse, and and it sort of eats itself. So those are the those are the sort of big things, an ordinary person getting his one shot of fame, wanting to be famous. You know, if you take away that it was a fake documentary, it doesn't make much sense because you say, well, why is David

Brent acting like that? Oh, he wants to be famous, he wants to be discovered, he wants to be loved, he needs to hug you know. So so it was a bit it was a we weren't spoofing the genre, but the fact that it was meant to be a documentary. You know, it's fifty of the show before you start writing the sitcom and um, so how much how much of the comedy comes from it being a documentary. Well, you've got to believe this is a real person who wants to be famous. So you've got to really believe that.

Um your eavesdropping almost you're you're looking on someone's life. Because if you start thinking about you know it's it's written, anything can happen. So you have to try and make the ordinary extraordinary. And once you realize that David Brent just wants to be discovered and become famous and needs to hug it all seems to make sense really, and from a personal point of view, I wanted it to be a more about body language, not just acting and

saying the lines. I wanted it to be you know, people notice things like I hated it in the drama or comedy where someone would hang up the phone and then talk to themselves, you know, like go mm hm,

he doesn't usually call on a Tuesday. They had to find a way of showing someone was worried or lying, and you know you do that by the guy sort of not looking at you and then flicking his eyes at the camera, or you know, you had to somehow act like you would if you were being filmed and being caught out, and so there was there was lots of reminders that this was a fake documentary because otherwise

it just wasn't that special or interesting. It's that there'd be no reason to be making, you know, a sitcom where these people were acting like that, unless it was because one of them sort of wanting to be discovered and famous. So it really was about you know, TV

in itself. It was about people, the beginning of this new narcisism, this beginning of people doing anything, you know, living their life like an open wound, just doing anything, and and that was the beginning of bad behavior being rewarded. You know, as soon as we people thought, well I made it. I made an absolute proud of myself on television. But they've invited me on a new program to talk about it. You know, it's okay. And then people start, you know with people that would break the law and

then write a book, you know. So that was the ninth is. I saw that a lot. But apart from that, it was it was still about people. It was still about people being randomly thrown together and getting along, you know, and and conflict. But that the fact that it was a fag documentary, and one person in particular wanted to come out of this famous because he was looking for something. He was searching for something, you know. That was a

very very big part of it. Yeah, it's interesting you talk about behavior, right, and that so much of the comedy comes from that. Greg Daniels shared with me that he would send his writers down to the set to just observe the actors because you can't write people's behavior, you can't write their body posture, you can't write that stuff.

And so to really observe, for the writers on the American Office, to actually observe the actors and the characters in their setting, because so much of the humor came from that. Yeah, and that's because obviously, in realize, so much communication is non verbal. You know, just someone being, as I said, someone lying, they don't look at you, They touched their face. They when they're nervous, they touched their own head. You know. Brent kept fiddling with his tie.

He wasn't quite comfortable being in charge. The way he convulsed and giggled to show that he wanted to be one of the gangs. And you know, you're you're right that if we hadn't shot a little pilot showing the character. It was like a couple of years before we did the actual thing. I went back to the office I used to work in, and I had like friends who still worked there, but I we used as extras, so it looked very hyper real. But they also like to see what I meant if I have said, oh, this

is a character. He's quite boring, really and quite desperate to be loved. He doesn't say anything funny, he screws up jokes in and when he makes a joke, no one laughs. And then he touched his tie and looked at the camera. They think, what is this? You know, it just doesn't jump off the page. It was it

was a performance piece. Initially it was it was about behavior and about a man who was doing stuff to be loved and famous, and deep down he wanted to be popular and he thought being famous would that would be a short cut to it. And you know, he he threw everything. You know, he wanted to be a philosopher and a teacher. He wanted to be cool, he wanted to be sexy, he wanted to be funny, he wanted to be all those things that he wasn't quite

And that is comedy. It's most basic, particularly in sitcom. A sitcom is about an average guy or gal and an average person who's trying to do something they're not equipped to do. And that's what we're laughing at the blind Spot. So I just made David brent so about the blind Spot. But it was so it was so obvious and cringe e what we were trying to say with this man. He was delusional, And that in itself

was about people who wanted to be famous. Because in the nineties there were people, as I said, there were these people that in you know, quaint docu soaps, just getting on with their life and being discovered and having their fifteen minutes and that was it. But then all these talent shows started and how many times have you seen people on the talent show crying, going, please, I just want this, vote for me, I just want this. You want to go, well, what's that got to do

with me? Why you what? What's that got to do with us? What? What a we care? Whether you want to be famous just because you want it, Well, what are you going to do for it? What? What have you? Whatever? Have you put in? You know? And then It wasn't

even talent shows. Then it was just people and being famous for being famous and doing anything to be famous, you know, or being a housewife, I said, being a housewife, right, like suddenly being a housewife Beverly Hills or whatever, like yeah, it's yeah exactly, but but just just people, you know. And then it got to be that the producers are

in on it. People would say, let me go in, big Brother, and I promise our cause trouble, start a fight, to take my clothes off, and the producers said, okay, you're in. It was these It was honestly, it was these contrived things people. You know, you watch shows like The Apprentice, and these people they say anything to get on with the blessing of the producer that wants to see conflict, you know, are going there, I'll put the cat among the pigeons. I'm a man who will steamroller

anyone who gets in my way. I say what I think, I ruck all feathers, and the producers are going, well, great, let's do it. Yeah, let's let's and and suddenly there was there was this culture of misbehavior that was being rewarded. But I think that it was just the start of it. When I came with David Brent, it was just you know, and as I say, he was mainly before television, before docusents, he was mainly just a Frankenstein of those guys you

meet growing up. You know, your elders who should know better, your teachers who sometimes embarrass themselves, your first boss who was an idiot, and it's it's someone behaving when they should know better. And that's why it was important that he was the boss, really because if he weren't the boss,

he could be an idiot. And sometimes sitcoms made the difference, you know, the mistake of they they got that right and then they went on holiday, and on holiday it doesn't matter to much because people can behave badly on holiday. So you need that restriction, you need that authority that he's undermining. You know, it has to be someone who shouldn't be behaving like this because they should be a role model and they should know better. So all those

things were put in the mix. And the big theme of it as well was uh, men as boys and women has grown ups because there was also a PC culture that I saw come in where people were taught what to say and do, but they didn't really mean it. So guys like him, they knew that they couldn't be sexist upstairs because they're you know, they're get in trouble

with hr. And they talked a good talk and they talked about sexism, misogyny and racism, but deep down they hadn't changed and they could get away with that in the warehouse. So Brent was caught between two worlds because he wanted to be loved by everyone. He wanted to be a lad downstairs with a warehouse, but then he had to behave properly in front of his boss. So it was a man who was caught. He was caught between two worlds. He wanted to say terrible things, but

the camera was rolling. He wanted to be one of the guys, but his boss was watching. So this was a man who wasn't comfortable with himself because he wasn't being honest with himself. He it wasn't being honest because he didn't He just wanted a hand out of business cards that said, great bloke, just laugh at my jokes. But life isn't that easy. Do you remember the first time you met Ben Silverman, Yes I do. I was

walking down the street in London. I think I was going to see my agent, and the phone rang um and he said, Hi, it's Ben Silverman. You don't know me. I wanna I want to remake the Office for America. And I went, okay, all right, he said, can we beat up? He said, I mean town. I went right. He said, where are you? I'll come to you. I've jumped the cab. I went okay, and I looked up and I said, right and right outside Starbucks in ward Or Street and he went, wait there, I'll be there

in fifty minutes, and he jumped in a cab. He got I've never met anyone like him. He came and found me because obviously knew what he looked like because he'd watched the Office. And he talked to me and I said, well, listen, let me introduce you to my agent to get the ball rolling. And I took him in to see Duncan Hayes as my UK still is my UK agent, and that's and that was the beginning

of it. And then I can't remember all the details or all the phone calls, but I think the next big step was we sort of auditions show runners and we saw some amazing ones from my favorite programs of all time. We we chose Greg, and I think we chose Greg not just because of his body as work, which was as good as anyone's, and he was a nice chat but I think I think it was because he was the only one that brought up that he thought. It was a love story that was very important to me,

the love story. So you know, I didn't want to I never thought of it was, you know, just the sitcom. You know, you traditionally sitcoms were, as I say, an ordinary guy getting into Caper's and then you know, back at Square one, and there wasn't there wasn't really romance. But you know, we stole that from America because you know, and movies, because you know, there was always a love interest in movies and a lot of Americans shows had

more romance and love interests than than ours. It was usually about a grumpy, middle aged man, so we we like that. And then I can't remember what all of this this was in, but I think it was the Golden Globes where we won to the Office and I won Best Comedy Actor. I think that was the same week that we went to Ben Silverman's office and I don't know it before and after, but then Ben and

Greg came to London. At that I think that was nearer the time when we were very getting very close to actually start in production, and we worked out the translation, what was slow in America, you know, what was the equivalent of this, and what was the equivalent of that? And do we have this and what we almost did like a blueprint to you know, just americanizing stuff, and then we started. Then we started auditions and and that

was it. I do remember at one point, I think before or auditions, or when we were thinking of looking for you know, that David Ben and I think Ben Silverman called me and said, why don't you playing? And I said, well, what were the point of that? I did my bed. Now I want to rest. Now I want some I want some other schmuck to do a two episodes. But mainly my real apart from the fact that I was lazy and I was terrified of being working hard for seven years, I said, no, this should

be this should be made by Americans for Americans. And I was flattered that they even let us being involved as we were. But you know, it really took off when they started making their own show. Is. The first episode was basically a remake, but then it just got further and further away, and you know, by the end, it yeah, it was. It was its own show. And I remember that people were scared because The Office was such a media darling, you know, to a few Americans,

even its peak. I remember the Office in America, the our version. I remember it was the biggest show on BBC America and it had something like one point one million, and Ben Dield was saying, listen, there's a lot of people that haven't seen this that won't be prejudiced. But of course, I remember he was worried about the press saying this is a you know this, we love the original, um and he came up with a really good thing.

When they were saying, why would you do a remake of this that the original was perfect, he said, well, why I wouldn't. I wouldn't make the film of a shitty novel. I'd make a film of the best novel I could find. And I thought that was such a clever counter. But of course we want to remake of something that's really good. At what we do a remake of something that was terrible, And then soon, you know,

people forgot that there was original. Some people don't even know there's an original to most Americans that they have no idea that this is a remake, and they don't care. And you know, and I imagine most people who love the American Office they prefer it to the British version. So and which is a great position to be in for me. I remember once it was after syndication and someone, someone on Twitter sent me a tweet that said, the American version of the Office is so much bigger and

better than yours. How does that make you feel? And I sent back, fucking rich exactly. I don't think you had any problem with the success of the American version of the Office. No, I was, you know. But I remember also early days, it was an okay start. It was a new sitcom. I mean it was on network TV, so it was already audacious, was pretty out there, and

the ratings were not good. It was a bit spiky and different, and and I think it struggled, and I think we got they deferred people's wages too, so it could keep going, and and you know, people really pulled together to try and get this going. And then I think that there was two big breaks as I remember one was they discovered that it was watched by the right demographic for advertising, even though it was only getting a few millions. I think it was the highest percentage

of people earning over a hundred thousand dollars. I think it was second to Win and Grace, And so advertisers loved it, and so the channel loved it. So there was all that behind the theme things going on. And then Steve Kral became a huge film star, so it took off. It just and then it grew and grew and grew and got bigger and bigger, and it's still getting bigger and bigger. It's remarkable. Remarkable. Yeah. One of my favorite Emmy moments of all time was the bit

you did with Steve Correll. What do you think about the fact that he never won an Emmy? Didn't he never How many did he get nothinated for? He must he got nominated every year. He probably got six or seven, but he never won. Wow. Wow, oh in your face, Steve Carrell? Um? Wow? So was I up against him? Then? When I won I won an Emmy for my before it's an extra and I wasn't there. And that's the one where John Stewart gave it to Steve. Yes, oh so one of them was my fault that you didn't win.

Now I feel bad. Yeah, that was funny that bit. I just I bumped into him on the red carpet and said, I've got an idea if you could that. Um, I'm going to come and get my only back and you've stolen it. And he just went, do whatever you want. And he just played it so so deadpalent and so great and it was just lovely when he bent down and gave it back to me. He's great, I think. I you know, I have said this many times an interview, never to his face. I always wind him up in public,

obviously that's my job. But he is such a brilliant, hard working, conscientious, it's just a lovely man who it's great. He's so versat up And then we got to see him that he was a dramatic actor after all this was over. I mean, we really we really lucked out when we got Steve Corral for being our sitcom, didn't we. Yeah, he's one of the best. Yeah, because you know he can be you know, he can be snide and rude and unaware and somehow you still have that feeling where

you you just want to love him. I know, I know it is. Yeah, he's some, he's remarkable, but I still beat him at the ends. Let's not forget that. Oh dear, um, were you pleased with how Greg Daniels adapted the show? I thought it was great. I just thought it was great, how dense it was, how fast everything was, how many plot lines, and how written it was. I mean, I know there was, you know, a lot more writers, but I just thought he held it together and he kept the heart and he kept the love story.

It was. It was as funny as anything needed to be. It looked great, and it just got better and better. And I was so proud of him and everyone, and you know, and and Steve Carrell. And then it was a joy for me to pop up in a couple just for fun, like I would have, like I would

have in my favorite show. I did a Simpson, I did a Family Guy, I did Sesame Street, and this was like this show, but I you know, you forget that it came from an idea you had ten years before, but it was this monster and I felt flattered that they invited me to do a cameo in it. So that's how good it was that I felt flat out that I was invited to be in this show. That's how good I thought it was. Oh, that's that's crazy.

I just watched last night. I had somebody sent me those two clips and you and Steve at the elevator banks doing your Chinese impression, and you know, I mean that was completely ad libbed, but but we just bumped into and I just thought, because it was the time when people were thinking of you know, I think it was already out there that Steve was leaving, wasn't it. And so I dropped in this little false thing for the bands where I said, any jobs going And I

just thought that was a fuddy little tease. You. I mean, your show started with the idea of redundancy, right, and then in the American version, it really went on unlike anything that was happening in American television, like dealing with serious issues like race, homosexuality, healthcare, you know, et cetera. And as we talked about before, like that that UNPEC or the the woke culture as they call it now,

well exactly. But you know the thing is that again, it's important that people know that the difference between the subjects of a joke and the actual target, and the target was actually people pretending to be all those good things but not quite getting it right. We were taking the stab of this this false notion of just pretending to have like equality and fairness but not really. And you know, we did it to a certain extent in

our version. And certainly David Frent, you know, was was fascinated with with difference and he was had that terrible white middle class anchored about anyone thinking he was sexist or racist, and so he overcompensated. He was basically a good person, but he overcompensated. He panics around different you know, around disability or color or anything like that. So that was funny because and we're we're laughing. We're laughing at that white ant. That's what we're laughing at. And of

course people getting it wrong. You know, he's funny because he's getting it wrong. He's trying to do the right thing, but he's not a quick he's not a quick to do it. Yes. Yeah, one thing someone told me recently, and I'm sure you're aware of this. You know, American television was basically every show was set up with a

love story, right here are the lovers. It's you know, a will they won't they or a married couple, and then you have kind of the wacky boss or the wacky uncle who comes in for you know, ninety seconds of the show, makes people laugh and then he goes away again. But what your show did was you inverted it right. You made the wacky boss the central figure of the show, which meant you had to care about him, because before who cares what the wacky boss or the

wacky uncle is thinking. But you put him central, and you put the love story in the corner, but you make that just as important. But it makes people want to lean in and and watch. That's exactly right. I said once that people tune in for David Brent, but they stayed for Tim and Dawn because there's a will they won't. You've got to stick around. You've got to see the result with that. It is something you want, and that's an emotional connection which is stronger than just gags.

And I see it in all forms of comedy. I see it in stand up. You know, you you can't go and see someone who just tells a hundred killer jokes and they're great, but after about fifty you're looking at your watch and there's no reason to stay, and you could pause, and you could, you know, but someone shambles out and they tell you a story about the day they've had, and you're related. You can't leave. You

want to know what happened. And I think that's what the Love Story did, because we wanted to see if they got together, and I tried it a certain amount with them, you know, brenth development, because I think people eventually wanted him to be happy, because I like the fact that people thought it was just awful with no redeeming features. But then you see that he's wounded too, and he's looking for love, and he's not a bad person. He's just been doubt a bad hand, and you know,

he made the mistake. He thought things like being on Telly would make him feel better, and you know, he thought that popularity was as good as respect. It's just been lied to, really by television. And I think people saw that in the end, and they saw that actually he wasn't he wasn't that bad a bloke. He was all right, and everyone's wounded, everyone's looking for love, everyone needs a hug. And I'm glad that eventually been thought of him fondly. Yeah, it's it's crazy. This is just

occurring to me now. So maybe this is a stupid idea, but you know, you talk about him just wanting fame and being you know, in the family of say a Big Big Brother contestant. But in a way, David Brent actually had more reality right than than a real person on one of those shows, because you eventually got to see the inside of David Brent and those guys on Big Brother. You don't ever see the inside, no you don't.

And also what happened with something like Big Brother is it started off like a quite a good social experiment where no one really knew how they were going to come across, not even the producers, and there was real drama. Then they started contriving it. Then they started putting in, as I said, people who were willing, they were already at their lowest there. They had nothing to lose, they had no dignity to lose, so it wasn't even particularly interesting.

You know, when a load of feral people are happy to run around and fight each other and take their clothes off, you think, well, what are we watching this ball? Where's the conflict? They're happy with that, there's no just see what I'm saying, there's no there's no human interest story because it's like they don't care about themselves. They know what's happening. They've gone in there to get fIF demons to pay cash in on it, sell their story to the paper, and buy a house, and good luck

to them. But I don't know why that it was no longer entertaining because it wasn't real. It's strangely reality, as you said, reality TV became less real than than a well scripted drama about reality, and so you know, that's what happened. I think over that time, what are you most proud of the legacy of the office. Oh, that's so difficult. That's so difficult to say. I'd say it was the first time I tried my harvest anything. I'm very proud of that. And I got addicted to that.

I was sort of this guy that would cruise around and I did well at school because I was smart, and it was almost like I wore it like a badge of honor. I didn't need to try hard. And I realized that that's not a good attitude. And then, you know, and then I tried to become a pop star and failed miserably. And my mistake was wanting to be a pop star, and I should have wanted to be a songwriter. And so when I came to this later in life, I thought, I want to be a writer, director.

I want to be famous for something. If if fame, if I'm going to be an actor and be famous, I'd better be famous for something. I better do something I'm proud of. And right in the office I knew at the time, and I knew in retrospect that that was the first time I had really tried my harvest at anything, and it was a great feeling. And I don't think you can have success without hard work. You know, if he didn't work hard, it loses a bit of its success. So that's what I'm proud is held trying

my harvest. Well, it's uh, I mean, you know, look at everybody who was involved in the American version owes everything to you, you know, working your hardest on something. Um, I'll just ask you one more thing that that at the end of the American Office, it ends to talking head by the character of Pam, and she is talking about you know, she thought it was weird that people who work in a paper company would be the subject of a documentary, like why would anyone want to watch us?

But she said, you know, in retrospect, she feels like that they were a really good subject for documentary because there's there's beauty and ordinary things, and isn't that kind of isn't that kind of the point? And that was what Greg's perspective was. That's exactly right. I always been fascinated with trying to make the ordinary extraordinary, just trying to take a tiny little story that you wouldn't think anyone's interested in, and and making people interested in it.

And I remember when I was at school, I used to write and my teachers say, yeah, it's a bit melodramatic. And I realized that I was taking it from Telly and films and and he kept going a bit more dramatic, right, And this really annoyed me. So I decided to try and do the most boring story I could, right, just

to annoy my teacher. I was like thirteen, And so what I did was my mom used to look after this old lady who lived near us, and when I was born, i'd go around, I'd watched my mom sort of make a tea and clean up and that, and it was boring for a kid, and I thought, I

know what I do. I'll write about that, right this teature a lesson and I remember just writing exactly what was happening, and I handed it in and I've got it back and the teacher had given me an aid and said much better, and I almost didn't get it. I did. I did hum because I think he knew what I was doing, but he also knew what I was saying was the truth and that I I've done it from real life as opposed to a top show

on Telly, Do you know what I mean? And then I was gonna realize that ordinary life is the most fascinating thing we have. Everyone's life is fascinating to them and and if you look into it, it can be fascinating to everyone because it's it's unique and real and it happened and it was a life, and I think that's beautiful. And then you know, I've taken that on my new series Afterlife. It's about the mundane things in life, you know, saving you there this factions and it's true,

it's just true. Everyone thinks that you know what their their lives a bit boring and mundane. But it's not. It's it's fascinating. Well, I was not going to be overly nice to you until the very end, but your ability through all of your shows, obviously, and you as a person, your ability to find that humanity in people that you do not expect to be likable, is a great gift that you know you've given everyone. Blah blah. I don't want to sound too nice, but you know

what I'm saying. I love it. Thank you very much. That's that is. That's lovely. Thank you, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Yes, and good luck with afterlife. I cannot wait to watch it, and thank you man, and enjoy a drink on me tonight. I'm going to have one now. I'm sure some of the residuals that that we made. It just just something that we pay. Okay, there nothing but the greatest champagne we day on top. All right, thanks mam, all right, cheers, all right, bye

bye bye. That is a rap on Ricky Gervais. Ricky, thank you so much for joining me. I hope it was worth your time, if for no other reason than to find out that Steve never won an Emmy I'm very pleased that I could provide that level of joy for you. To the rest of you as always, thank you so much for joining me, and don't forget to subscribe to the Office Deep Dive on your podcast app. Do your so that you and I can keep well diving deeper. I hope you have a great day and

I will see you again next week. The Office Deep Dive is hosted and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive producer Langley. Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer, our producer is Emily Carr, and our assistant editor is Diego Tapia. My main man in the booth is Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by my great friend Creeve Bratton, and the episode was mixed by seth Olansky.