Richard Kind

I want you, the writer, the creator, to tell me this is what I wrote. I wrote a double. I think you hit a triple. You may have even hit a home run. Yeah. That that's what I want every time I work, That's what I want. So that's what I do. Hi, my name is Richard Kind, and I get to talk all about me for the next hour. Howdy folks, and welcome to another episode of Off the Beat. As always, it's me. It's Brian baum Gartner as you. Just if you don't recognize that voice, I don't know

where you've been for the last fifty years. The incredible Richard Kind is the man you just heard from. Look, I gotta tell you I am more than kind of excited to share our conversation today. Get it. No, that was bad, but it's true. It's incredible. He has been in more movies and TV shows than I can count, but luckily I don't have to. I am dB says that he has worked on or is working on, two hundred and seventy two projects. Now that's not individual episodes,

two hundred and seventy two unique projects. That is insane. You may know him as cousin Andy on Curb Your Enthusiasm, or perhaps Paul Lasseter in Spin City, or maybe you're most familiar with him from the numerous Pixar movies he's been involved in Toy Story three, or his work as Bing Bong on Inside Out or Mold on A Bug's Life, or maybe you're more in two shows about pubescent teens. Well, if so, Richard plays Marty in Big Mouth. Yes, the man has range. I'm excited to dive into some of

his projects. Yes, But also I was so interested in talking to Richard about what it's like being a working actor for all of these years. I can't tell you what this conversation meant to me. I learned so much today. I hope you have fun and maybe learn a little bit too. So it is my absolute pleasure to bring on Richards so you can hear straight from the horse's mouth because yeah, Richards played a horse too. No he hasn't. That was a joke. Areas Richard kind Bubble and Squeak.

I love it Bubble and Squeak on Bubble and Squeaker cook at every moment, lift over from the night before. Ye hey, buddy, I can't see you yet. Oh you can't see me. Now I can see you. I think this is much better. This is much better. Thank you for taking the time to talk to me. You know I'm a huge fan. Thank you. I am a huge fan of yours, which is why I'm doing this even though it forever to get us organized. Who have you had on the show and what makes you a good podcaster? Wow,

that's a great question starting off with the questions from you. Um, I don't know if I'm great or not, but look, here's what I find interesting is what I who. I want to talk to our people that one I maybe don't know too well, Guys like you that I admire but we've met, and guys that I've worked with that we don't. You know, you're on set. You don't sit there and talk so much about history or moments that helped them. So who have I had? Um, Jon Hamm,

Eric stone Street? Who did we just have? Eric McCormack, and Bellamy Young and Kevin Pollock? I know, old buddy of yours. One of those people you mentioned are friends of mine. Yeah, yeah, Soul, It's been a variety of conversations. That's great, great, great great, Yeah. Yeah, uh. I want to go back with you for a little bit. You grew up in in Bucks County, Pennsylvania. What is the best way to describe Bucks County for people who have

never been there? Okay, it's it's first of all, it's beautiful. That's bottom line. Bucks County is across the river from New Jersey, from New Jersey. My dad's store was in Princeton, New Jersey. I was born and up until fourth grade lived in Trenton. Then we moved across the street to the Tonier area, and Trenton was beginning to change, so we moved to Bucks County. Yardly. At the time, you had a steel mill in Fairless Hills, you had rolling farmland all over. It gets it abuts Amish country, and

it's about fifty minutes from Philadelphia. It is bucolic and beautiful, and it is surrounded by two large cities, New York and Philadelphia. I'm about an hour by training. You're about an hour and ten minutes from New York hour and twenty minutes. And that's where people went to work, or they went to work in Philly, or they worked in the area. Right. Your dad was a jeweler, I understand. Here's a better way to describe it. My dad had a jewelry store, and his competition was Tiffany and Cardier.

Because people in Princeton were very educated, very wealthy, and they either went to New York to buy all their gems and their jewelry and the watches and everything, or they went to my dad. Believe it or not, my dad's suppliers were the same people who supplied Tiffany and Cardier, the same jewelry makers. However, Tiffany and Cardier can get necklaces that are five thousand dollars and have about eight

of them in the window. My dad couldn't. But if you needed one of those necklaces, he would get six of them in He would show them to you, and then the one that you wanted you bought, and if you didn't like any of them, he gets six more in. But you didn't have to sleep into the city where you were nobody, or you could go to my dad, who would take care of you very specifically. He knew you well, he knew your family, he knew the taste of the wife and the kids. And so it was

a very personalized, beautiful jewelry store. And I understand this was going to be your business. This was you were you were going to take up the family business. It was so when I say my dad wasn't a jeweler, although he knew gemology really well. Uh, he could do everything that a jeweler could. That is not what he did. My dad could sell ice to the Eskimos. He was a great and charming salesman. He was the only Jew

in a very very waspy New Jersey Town, Princeton. The rest of his life was spent with Jewish friends at the club and things like that, but his work was in Princeton. And although he may have been looked at as a Jew, I don't he was known like that. He was he was revered in Princeton. He was on the board of the bank, on the board of the theater, and in the town council, everything like that. So I don't believe that there was any prejudice at all in

that way. He wasn't the Jewish guy in a waspy town, but he had to know that he was. And all of his friends were either you know from the temple, you know from the neighborhood where he was when he wasn't working. Yeah, and you thought you would take this business over, miner My understanding was you went to Northwestern to study law pre law and take over the business. Right.

My dad did not want me to go into the business unless I got a law degree and a business degree because he always felt that the store could have been large when he should have made it bigger, had a couple of stores he didn't need to, but that's all. That's what he thought I should do and expand the business. I would not. I am not business minded, However, I'm a nice guy. My dad taught me two things. Number One, you never buy jewelry for a sad occasion. You always

it's always happy. It's a very positive business. And the second thing is is if you believe in a product. I can sell anything if I believe in a product. And my dad's stuff was not just the best, it was so overpriced. He charged so much, but he would guarantee that what you were getting was the best quality and he would stand behind it and nobody it was worth the money that you were paying, getting the best that that money could buy. And he that's what he

would bring in. And he would never dicker or haggle for a price or anything like that. You know, they charged a thousand hollars, said well, i'll give you a seven fifty. He wouldn't do that. He would say, no, that's not what we do. So he really taught me how to be classy. I'm not saying he was a classy guy, but when it came to that, he was classy who he was, right? Did you do any performing

as a kid? Only in school? I the only thing, the only reason I wanted to be an actor was my grandparents used to take me to theater in New York, and so I wanted to be an actor. But you know, kids want to be baseball players and kids want to be fireman and the thought of me being an actor, it was it was a pipe dream. It was. It was stupid. The thing is, I kept doing school plays and I was always the best. So I guess, if you're the best football player, are you really going to

try and be a pro. Yeah, you may have aspirations, but no, if you're a high school football player in one in one hand, you can count the number of people you know who go on the professional sports an actor, I guess you don't have to have such such restrictions. So I got, okay, Yeah, I'm going to be an actor.

I kept being the best. I did a thing called forensics, so I I won the national championship in oral and turp and dramatic and turp and and I said, yeah, but I'm not going to be an active And I went to Northwestern, where I did what I love to do. But I got an education, and that's what Northwestern did. Are these answers way too long? No? No kidding me. You'll cut when I go on too much about myself. No, you're no, that's it's it is about you. But I'm

fascinating with the moment that you know. It sounds like you, well, you loved your dad. I presume you respected the hell out of your dad. And what in the business he was. He was building. And you go to Northwestern and you're on this path, at what is the moment that you decide the path is going to change? I mean, I know you end up going to Second City, right. It was all one thing. There was a guy who I'm actually going to see next week. I hope he's in

his nineties. He they lived next door to us. He was my parents best friend. And we're watching football and I was supposed to go to law school and my dad's best friend, Steve Holsman said these were exact words. Try acting, because when you're forty, you're gonna resent your wife, you're gonna resent your kids that you never tried. It a dream deferred. It's the worst Go try it. It works out great. If it doesn't work out, you got the store. I was twenty one year old kid twenty

at the time, so what the hell? And I say this if I ever give lectures or something. First of all, I had nobody to answer to but myself. Second thing is dare to fail. And I think that's a really important thing. As you really go through life, failure can be looked on as a good thing. You you know that that didn't happen. So what else can I do that might make me make me successful? And who the hell knows I might be successful? So I went out and I tried it, and for a while did I fail?

Let me, I'll tell you the worst. And you, being a character actor, I don't know whether or not you had to deal with this in your youth, but we're not the best looking men that walked the planet. I couldn't get an acting job. And what was worse is I couldn't get a waiter's job. They wanted a better looking person. And I'm going, oh my god, so that if I can't get work as an actor, I can't work, get work serving food. Well, of course eventually I did, and of course eventually I do. And when I said

get work as an actor, I I did stuff. I did the class this, and I did off Broadway plays. But the journey at this, I'm shore, you know, to the journey is a great time. After you've done the journey.

You're right, Sometimes that journey is just dreadful, But you know, you go when you do an off Broadway play is horrible, but you go out afterwards and you get drunk and maybe you meet a girl who you get laid and you're you're doing that stuff and you can stay out till four in the morning because you've got nobody to answer to. And you realize I remember doing that play, and I don't know whether I was good man or different, but I did it, and that's fun. I think that's

a lot of fun. So you you were focused in New York. What made you decide to go to Harvard or the Harvard of Theater of Okay, when I look back at it, and I'm not looking at it, I think that's the first time I've ever said this out loud. I did everything. It's not my plan. In increments of four I went to high school ninth grade through twelfth grade for four years. I went to Northwestern for four years. I was in New York for four years. I went to Chicago for four years. Then I went to l

A for a long while. As it happened, I then went back to New York for Spin City for four years. Which it's just weird that none of this was in my head. So I'm in New York waiting tables, taking classes, doing off off roadway stuff. I did a children's theater that was also for adults. I wouldn't pay money for it. But it was like if if they had a theater subscription series, one week would be Doc Severanston's band. They might have Tony Bennett come wing. Well, one Saturday they'd

have Daniel Boone. That was That was a show, but it was very, very good, A very very reputable theater company called Performing Arts Repertory Theater. But we did it primarily for kids in second grade through high school. That's something I did from January till May. During that time, Julia Louie Dreyfuss, Brad Hall, Gary Kroeger, and a guy named Rush Pearson and Paul Barross all started a group called the Practical Theater Company in Chicago. It's an improvisational

theater company in Chicago was the hub of improv. They were really good, really really good. And when I guess I think it was Lauren Michaels was looking for four additional people. They asked Bernie Sillons, the owner of Second City, do you have anybody? And he this is horrible thing that he did. Rather than show his people, who were very good but they had just opened a show, he told them to go back to the other space. And said, these guys are good and they all got taken Saturday

Night Live. So I had gone to school with those people. I had gone to Northwestern. While they were on Saturday Night Live, they said, why don't you go to Chicago and open a play a play at our theater. And so I went with my best friend who we also went to Northwestern, and we opened a play that was really really successful there. It was really good. The owner of Second City saw us and he said, uh, I want you to be He asked me and my best friend if we wanted to be in Second City. Of course,

oh my god, going to be in Second City. And so I spent four years in Second City and that's what I did. So that's how I got to Second City. Actually it overlapped. I did about six months of doing that play along with doing Second City. We would do the show first at the small little space, then I'd run next door into Second City, which was so on a Saturday night, I was working from seven at night until to thirty in the morning, taking or two in

the morning, with one hour break from from ten to eleven. Yeah, pretty great. Prior to this time, would you say you were mainly focused in your acting on comedy or yeah, it's just yeah, I was an actor, and I've always always, always considered myself an actor. Yeah, it's it's what I do. And I do not consider myself a comedian at all. And I don't consider myself a comic actor because if I'm doing a serious play, what the hell do you

want a comic actor for. I can do comedy. I can do comic parts, and I can give humanity to a serious part so that he could be that much more rounded, because if you just go on and just be an ogre, I mean, Alan Rickman was the best at that horrible villain, always funny. Yeah, you always lent humor to it, so that that that's what I did. But I can't say that I did. The only reason I did Second City because they asked me. You know, everybody asked, you know, how did you get that part?

Why did you take that role? Because they asked me, do you want to do it? I said, yeah, that's all I do. Had Caazario always says, have you ever heard the word no? You know, there's a reason I work so much is because I don't turn work down. I take it off of an Indian? Do you do you see, I don't know about that. Do you think that Second City helped you later on as you became more known in the comedy space. I mean, is there a correlation there? All right, let let me tell you

something that I did a lot of times. All of these things were just mistakes because I didn't know what else to do. But this was a conscious decision. It took me forever to leave Second City. I was really scared. I had a great security in Chicago and friends on stage every night. I got a paycheck every week. It's not large, but it's a paycheck. I'm a working actor, and that's bottom line. Is the goal for us all Let's live well and do what we love as often

as we can. This is the best life in the world. I gave my notice in February, went out there around September October. My first thought, my first thing that I got, and I got. I got worked pretty soon. I did not want to do a comedy. I didn't want because if if I've got a Second City on my resume and I was was I known now? But maybe word got out that I was Second City and I was doing I did a Stephen Cattle awful, awful, hard hitting police drama. We it was a very gruesome show. And

I will tell you this a side note. It was the first procedural done on TV. Wow, I know it's called unsub and you're gonna go what I called it? One subwhat unsub? Unsub was short for unknown subject and that's what the FBI division who chase serial killers would call the thing. And there the un subject. I've been an unsub. I did criminal minds, so I procedurals. We were criminal minds in Okay before any of it happened.

And whenever I see Peter Roth, who just left the Warner Brothers but he used to run cattle, and whenever I see him, you know, he hugs you and he goes. We were the first, and we were we But but when I tell you, well, you know how how gruesome criminal minds can be. Yes, imagine no precedent having ever been sent spent. There was no precedent. So the first episode was a great actor named Paul Gilfoil. You know Paul. You look him up and you'll know exactly what. Paul

Gilfoil was a serial killer. He was a cobbler and he used to put razor blades in the heels of women's shoes, so when they would try them on, they'd bend over in pain and he would stab them in the back of the neck. This was the pilot episode. And he comes running home to tell his mother, Mommy, Mommy, I did something bad. His mother you know who Grace Zabriski is. Grace Sabriski played his mother. He runs into the bathroom there she is literally spread eagle in the bathtub.

So you see the origins of his of the horrors and he's talking to his mother while she's naked in the bathtub, spread eagle in the six you know Partridge family, you know there there were you know whoever different strokes and this is what's on the air. And Brandon Tartakov, who was ahead of the studio, Cattle was known for doing the A Team, so he thought he was going to get the A team and he saw the on the big screen this first episode and he stands up.

He goes, what the funk are you trying to do? Take down this home network? And so Cattle knew because we were eleven on the air, he knew we were eleven and out and we were off the air. Wow, I don't know how good the show was. But it was groundbreaking. It was groundbreaking without without doing anything to the TV landscape. It's like we we changed the rules and we made the rules, and we're never seen again. And then nothing happened for fifteen years. And now that's

it's really the truth. And then and then and then Dick Wolfe took over in Criminal Minds, and then the whole thing and that's what police dramas became. Right. So I'm gonna take a little detour here because let me be honest, you've done so much. We we can't we can't cover this in a day, not to speak of an hour. But you're just pathetic. But go ahead. You were just talking about being referring to yourself as a working actor. What what what we all want to do?

And since you started you have you have achieved that. Whether it's because you couldn't say no or not, I know, it's it's blind luck. It's blind luck. So I want I want you for for people who don't really understand. How would you describe this lifestyle of going going from job to job, character to character, How would you describe that and have you enjoyed that as opposed to the sameness. Nobody's ever asked me that, And it's a really good question.

I've I've addressed it, but nobody's asked me there was a time. I'm not gonna I'll give you the bad examples love Boat Love, American Style, but mcgiver, east Side, West Side, Uh, the Defenders, the Twilight Zone. You could guest star on a show and get paid well m and then all of a sudden it became you guessed it on a show, you got top of show, and it became something where, oh, he can't be a regular on a TV show. Now, you and I know that being a regular on a TV show pays mightily and

being a guest star does not. So you can do a guest star every week of the season and make and make a altry living. But if you've got to get on a TV show, if I had my druthers, I'd like to be a guest on every TV show, every week of the year. That's what I would like to do. I would like to be my own repertory company. Number One, When you're a guest, they have to tell the audience who you are, why you fit in this world, why you are in this world. So you're being written.

It's exploring. It's great. A guest star role is fantastic. You get to be in a lot of the episode. You just don't get paid. Well, okay, you come on and you meet different people, you make new friends. It's great. You're you're active again, as opposed to look like. I loved every cast I've ever been with. But okay, good morning, how are you? What do you do last night? Okay, let's go. Okay, the energy, the excitement of meeting somebody new isn't there. It's let's just go to the old

nine to five. Maybe you become more intimate, maybe you become closer friends. I don't need that. I like reading different people, so so that's what I would like to do. Look, you've heard people complain about it when they do the procedurals. I used to call it when I was on Spin City, same joke, different words. But uh I got tired. I get tired of it. I do when now here's something else this I have spoken about. When I was a kid, my favorite TV shows were Batman at All in the

family You. In every interview that I would read with Carol O'Connor or Adam West, they would say, I don't want to just be known for being Batman. I don't just want to know be known for playing Archie Bugger. Sorry, guys, you are. That's who you are. I don't care that you did in the heat of the night. I don't care that you did any of that stuff. You are Archie Bunker. You are Batman. Even at an early age, that's scared the pants off me. I didn't want that

at all. And it's been city. They used to say, Oh, you're gonna be the breakout character. Get yourself a PR person. You're the breakout character. If I'm the breakout character, that's me. That's what I'm gonna be known for. So I hardly did I every time I did PR, I was scared that all people would know me for is uh it was Paul Lasseter. I did not want to be Paul Laster.

I didn't want to be a breakout character. Maybe it gets your work or a movie or something for three or four years, but then you're you're just that guy. You just are. There are exceptions to the rule, of course. I think my good friend George Clooney is an exception. Became known for being Doug Ross was lucky enough to break from that, but not many others on that show were. It took years for Julianne to become the good wife. It's tough. I think Julianne really had the age. All

I wanted to do was just keep working and working. Now. The good thing is I'm not a leading man, you know. Jeff Beck just passed away, and I read he was interviewed and they said, well, you never became the star. You never broke out like Jimi Hendrix or Eric Clapton. But he was voted top one of the top five guitarists. And he, like I say, is thank god that never happened. I didn't I didn't have to do all of that. And I saw a clip of him playing on David

Letterman uh and playing great. He was fantastic. David Letterman calls him over. He sits down, your great job, great job, and as he's saying ladies and gentlemen, Jeff That gets up and walks off and leaving Letterman hanging. And it's like, don't know me for being Jeff Beck, know me for being guitarist Jeff Beck, and actually Letterman being so funny. Jeff Beck is off off into the wigs. He leaves Dave hanging and Dave goes. Dave goes accepting the award

for Jeff Beck. It was hilarious. It's like, what the way the hell are you going. I'm not saying, Look, my ego does not want to be that, because you and I both have huge egos. That's why we got in the business. But don't keep me hanging there all the time for being on this character. Yeah, keep the applause coming, but shut up. It's it's really a dichonomy.

I love the applause. Shut up. Well. I absolutely love your answer about guest stars because you give a refreshing different perspective because for me, in this business, the guests are role is the hardest. It's it's the hardest because you show up, there's people standing there and you don't know anybody's name, you don't know where the bathroom is, you don't know. But I love the I love the uncomfortableness of it. I love the learning and that you're

just new. Especially I have to admit this too, and you get it the same way. We walk on stage and we come with a resume and people are nice to us. They are nice to us so we are welcomed. Here you go. It's still uncomfortable, but they are very nice to us, and they're excited to meet us. They're excited to see what we do. The only you know, the only thing we could do is fuck it up, and we're capable of that, but we try not to.

And so let's not suck it up, and let's let's be excited by not knowing where the bathroom is and not knowing who these people are, how fast they work. And only one time. I've worked for Chuck Laurie a couple of times, but at one time, and it could have had the taint of he was in in the throes of the Charlie Sheen thing on Two and a half Men. But I I don't think he liked me. He I was introduced at the table comedy legend Richard Kind,

but he didn't like me. As days wore on and uh, you know, and he's not the nicest man in the business, and he sort of wore it on his sleeve. Not that he was mean to me at all, but I got it that first day and it didn't continue. Now I went on to other shows of his and he was gracious and grateful and terrific. Uh. And I knew him personally before I knew him professionally. We played poker and he was he was great. But you want to the executive producers Papa that week and you want to say,

how am I doing? Am I doing this correctly? Am I? Am I doing what you want? Are you be? Are you happy that you hired me? That's really important to me? And you would figure why would that be important? You look at your career, look at all you've done. No, no, no, no no. I still need affirmation from Daddy. Tell me I'm good. Tell me I'm good. And I don't want the audience to tell me I'm good. I want you, the writer, the creator, to tell me this is what I wrote. I wrote a double. I think you hit

a triple. You may have even hit a home run. Yeah. That that's what I want every time I work, That's what I want. So that's what I do. I love that. I love that. And how how true you are? We're all looking for for Daddy's approval in one way or another. You are You're a member of a prestigious club, one that at some point I hope to apply to and get it. I wonder what you're talking about. Is this the Excessive Masturbators Club? What are you talking about? The

Character Actors Dining Society? So you aren't talking about the masturbatings masturbating. I gotta tell you, I am there's two things that are very difficult. One, God, I'm gonna get so attacked here on behalf of the whole thing. God, I don't know whether I should I should mention. First of all, it's limited. We started it with a certain number of people to get other people in a restaurant can only handle that many. You want to be able to talk to everybody at a meal, we've already got.

The table is already too large. It's too large. It is truly the Character Actors Dining Society. And uh, and we're We're just a bunch of guys who like to get together, talk about our families, talk about our wives, talk about the work, talk about what influenced this, talk the best jokes that we've heard lately, talk politics, talk everything. And they are great group of guys. And we can't make it much larger. We can't make it any larger.

And I don't know who's going to die off. Okay, I don't know who's going to die off first, but we'll replace them at such a time. It's a great group of guys, and they're they're people who there are people who I admire, people who I am jealous of, people who when I'm in the audition I want dead. That's who they are, you know, I, And I've known them for a number of decades, quite a number of decades. I knew Brian Cranston before he was guesting on Seinfeld.

We used to play golf together and then, and I'd see him every once in a while. Now he is considered properly one of the great actors in the history of so BIZ. And I know him now as well as I know him back then because the dinner because of these and be because of these. So he happened to have been in New York, I think about a month or two ago. So two of the guys who are on this thread and this dining society, great guy named Danny Burstein, and Brian and myself went out for lunch.

He he initiated it, Brian did. We went out at twelve thirty. I think we met at a restaurant. I think we got out of there at four, the three of us. It was great, it's great, it's great. And uh and Brian, I wish right now I could say, we'd love to have you come by. I no, no, no, no. But there are people, there are people who who asked and I go, we can't. I and I just got luck of the draw. I was just there in the beginning, you know, like number six, and uh, I'm lucky. I'm lucky. Yeah.

But you but but like like like you say, we get to know these people, and you've got a myriad. You've got me. You know, you mentioned all the people who were on your show. They know you, love you and would go out. How do you call Steve Carrell? Although he is a character actor, but where where do you go from the difference between character actor and star. But as somebody said, you know, Brad Pitt is one of the great character actors in the business today. He

really does so many different characters. But fuck him, Okay, true, true, I always whenever I think about him, and that I think of true romance. Always, you got true romance. How about that thing where he was the Scottish boxer. Now that's a ridiculous performance that is as good as good as they come, that's what I think of when they say he's a character actor. Where did he come up

with that? You know? And I had to talk about George the other day, George Clooney on Kennedy Center Honors, and I go, yeah, he plays the dec But halfway through you realize this dashing, intelligent guy, that smooth talker is very different from the other dashing smooth talkers he plays. It's just it's it's a variation on a theme. And then you go to, uh, oh, brother, where art though? And where the hell did he come up with that? So? And how did the Cone brothers know he was gonna

could do that? That was his first movie with the brothers. They didn't know him. I know. That's well, they're genius. I'm gonna talk about them in a second. But I love this quote. You described character actors as the parsley on a plate of meat and potatoes. Do you think everybody in the society feels that way? Look, it's no, it's me being self effacing. I should have corrected you immediately. I said, I and the parsley on a plate of potatoes.

And that's really that's what I used to say about man about You because I used to think Paul and Helen were magnificent in what they had to do. And I hated doing Man About You because I was never challenged. And I once went up to Danny Jacobs and who had created the show, and I said, I'm not asking to star in the show. Give me one scene a week where the audience can say, Jesus, I love him, Wow, he's great. And you know what Danny's answer was, I

can't promise you that. And that's when I hated doing Man About You. And he was right. The show was about those two and uh, and I'm nothing. I'm helping tell their story. I'm going to tell you an interesting thing about Seinfeld versus Uh, curb your enthusiasm. It's really interesting, Seinfeld are little blips of seeing that are are cobbled to together to tell a story. But I don't think you ever got more than a forty five second to a minute and a half scene. It was a collection

of scenes that built to an end. They had to tell the story. Everybody was really represented every single week to tell their story, all four of them. Yes, you were truly a device to help those four people tell the story. And you never really got to sign. You got to make an oppression, but you never got to sign on Curb your enthusiasm. Again, you are a device to tell one man's story, but you get to sign. And that's that's the difference between Seinfeld and Curb. That's

very interesting. Never really thought about it from from a guest perspective. But no, you're absolutely right. Yeah, I got an ego. Of course, I'm only thinking about me. So that's what I'm gonna say now. And now I was never on Seinfeld. I was hired for Seinfeld. This is an interesting story. You'll like this. Did you know an actor named Brad Mott. The name is familiar, but I can't. I only ask you because he's very reminiscent of what you do. He sounds like you, he looks like you.

I went to college with him his most famous role, and he was not a very big actor. I think he ended up teaching for the rest of his life. He was. He sat next to William Hurt in the movie The Accidental Tourist. If you remember that, he goes, hey, you're the Accidental Tourist. I remember it also because I read the book. Anyway, that's his most famous role. Great guy wonderful actor. There's an audition for Seinfeld. A guy is sitting next to Jerry on the airplane. He's talking

to him and something happens. Okay, I go into the audition, and I'm very good at knowing what I'm good at what I'm not good at, and I'll lose a job because I'm not right for it. I don't turn down the audition, but please don't hire me. That's what I said. I sort of said, here I go. You know who you should get is Brad Mott. He'd be perfect for this role. And the audition I walk in and I say, use Brad Matty's great. The casting director goes, we already, Uh,

he's not available. All right. You've never heard a more bullshit answer in your life. Because Brad lives in Chicago. Nobody knows who Brad Mott is because he's not a working Hollywood actor. But I'm not about to say to a casting director you're full of ship, which should have been my response. Instead, I said, then I'm by far the second best choice. As a joke. I do the audition and I got the job, and I was all wrong. I'm telling you I sent right for the role. We

go to work on Monday and back then. I'm telling this way too long, but it's a fun story. The table was enormously long in the audience was a hundred and fifty people, because everybody wanted to be there for Seinfeld. They want to be around. There was an omelet bar, there was bood to be had by all the event. And I'm sitting over here and way down at the other end is Jerry. I'm supposed to be sitting next to him on an airplane, so they should have put me next to him so that we could have an

intimate conversation. Instead, I'm screaming the lines down at the end for a role I already shouldn't be playing, and nothing was landing. After the reading, I went up to our director, who I knew, a guy named Tom Seronis, and I said, I you gotta fire me. I'm not right for this. He goes, no, No, No, you're great. I go, Tom, I'm not right. I know I'm going to get paid. Fire me. No, you're right. I tell Larry that afternoon, who was somebody I didn't know? Well,

you gotta fire me. No, you're great. We do tuesday's rehearsal. Do it all that afternoon we have the run through. I said, Larry to fire me. Tom called me that night and he fired me rightly. Larry said, we're going to change it to be a drunk. It's gonna be so. I said, I didn't audition for that. I'm not ready for it. I'll tell you who replaced me. Do you know who? Joe Mahars m a h e Er, one of the great character actors of all time, of all time.

Did you ever see Uh Heaven Can Wait with Warren Beatty? He was the butler, the gray haired English butler. That's who replaced me, the opposite of me. So I got fired from Seinfeld, but I asked to be fired and I never got hired again. But then I was lucky. I got on that. What was the question, Brian, why don't you Why do you make me tell these but they have no point? But they have no point? I love it. I mean, all I know is this is

that you're way way spicier than Parsley. I know that, I know for sure, not as bland as Parsley and pointless. You are correct, I can add, I can add to it. However, let's face it, we're going to the to the movie. We're gonna watch the TV show because of the meat and potatoes. Don't worry. I'll make everything look nice. Potatoes are white, meat is brown. I'll give you a little green. I'll give you some color. But you're not there to eat me. You're there to eat the meat potatoes. All right,

fair enough. I'm going to tell you something else. Yeah, I mean, we're gonna jump years ahead because what I'm doing now. Okay, do you watch East New York or are you aware of East? Yes? Of course I was going to talk to you about East New York. Well, I'm gonna mention that top premiere of last year. I am at this age, with this space and my resume, that I am playing a cop. Fantastic, There's nothing how grateful? Oh my god. And you know you're jealous, you want

me dead. I know I'm the luckiest guy in the world. That show is a police drama. That show is all about detectives trying to solve a crime. What the hell am I doing there? I give it flavor, that is what I do. I question still, can I be a New York cop? Really? At my age with this body? Can I and I walk and I see some two and sixty pounds cop standing on the corner, New York cop and go, yeah, I'm a New York cop. I'm not a New I'm not a TV cop. I'm a

New York cop. You want realism, you want a little bit of flavor, you want what New York can offer. That's what I'm there for. But I ain't going to solve the crimes. I'll help other people will run into the burning building with a gun, bam bam bam. I ain't doing that. But I lend it great flavor and humanity, and that's what I love. Love, that's what That's what I always want to do as well, for sure. Yeah, it's it's what it's what I do. Um, one time I wanted you dead. One time, one time I wanted

you dead. I have not been lucky enough to work with who I consider to be up there as the greatest creative filmmakers in the United States, the Corn Brothers. A serious man. Now, I think I was a little young, or at least that's how I justified it to myself. Yeah, that was one time. You you mentioned that at the beginning, like that you want these people dead, just briefly, just for a moment. I wouldn't say dead more just like the what is it the Gluly uh knee capping incident exactly. Yes,

that's just another way of saying, yes, I think their kneecaps. Look, I had that back when I was understudying a Pellinore in seventh grade and Camelot. I wanted, I wanted. I wanted a guy dead. I would I was literally in my head thinking before Gluley was ever there and uh and the woman had her knees knocked out about it? Yeah, yeah, I wanted. Yes, That's what I'm talking about. Of course, I don't want them dead. And I like those I love those people. Yes, I love them, but for a

little while, let them not exist. Uh, talk to me. I'm a huge fan of that movie as well. Your performance Stellar A serious man? How is it like working with Can I say say something else? I wonder? And I know what your last name is, and I don't even know your religion or your background, But more often than not, I would think that you would play the Irish kindly uncle like you should do our wilderness? Have you ever done our wilderness? Oh? My god, how wonderful.

You're larger than life you're you're who we You're who we want to be with, and that's that's uh, that is your your essence. Now, my essence is usually happy and everything. And I was sort of lovable, but this was a darkly troubled guy, which is a fun thing to play, and of course you could play it. But initially somebody who was up for the role, and we've talked about it was Pat Oswell and could he have done it? I just think it would be very different.

I think that what I bring is a little bit of the same lovable characteristics that you would, but deeply sad, this lonely guy who goes to what was the what was the bar that he went to for the young boys? But could that guy be capable of it? Of course? And that's what's so great about all of these horrible serial killer dramas that they look like the Scout leader next door. Uh. In anyway, let's let's talk about about

the Cohen brothers. I have so many things about the Cohen brothers to say, Number one, they are as brilliant as you think, and it is not haphazard. I once said that I think that like Hidscock the movie, they know what the movie looks like before they ever step on set. So that's that's one thing they do. Let the actors go. When I auditioned for it, I'll tell you. I'll tell you where I us. I was doing Damn Yankees. I was doing. I was doing Damn Yankees in El Paso,

Texas at a theater. And you don't say no. You don't say no to anything tonight. I've always I always wanted to play apple Gate. We had two or three week run, go and rehearse for a week and a half, two weeks go do the play. I wanted to do it. So I'm doing Damn Yankees in El Paso and they want me to audition for the thing, but I can't come in because I'm in El Paso, so they have me tape it. And the direction from Joel was, you can't be too big when you cry. You're crying, it's beaute.

And he told me the story of Bill Macy doing Fargo, and there's that scene where we all know where he's so fresh rated and things aren't going his way. He just bangs on the roof of the car. I got like that, and Bill Macy said, they're gonna laugh at me in New York and they're gonna laugh at me in Chicago making a choice like that, acting like that. Joel said, no, no, no, do it. It's what everybody remembers. He was huge. Who bangs on a call like that? But he did out of frust races. So they said,

you can't be too big. So I had to do that tough, tough crying scene by the pool, and I was not too big, and so I got I then come in. I'm gonna go back in time. I get called in to meet them to read for two movies. One is burn after reading A Lawyer has two speeches and they're huge. I worked and worked and worked on that. The other was the Lawyer in Serious Man. How hardly worked on it and it's it's nothing. I didn't care

about it. I wanted to be in the movie with George and Brad Pitt and Fran and uh and do that. I didn't get the loyal role, I mean the the this lawyer and Burne. After reading with the monologues, I didn't get. It killed me. They don't want me for the Lawyer and in Serious Man, so I read for the Rabbi. They say, we want you to look at the character of the lead, the Michael Stoulberg part. I said, you know what, you're the Cone brothers. Why would I

want to do a cold reading. Let me go home and study it and then I'll come back for You're not doing this for a long while, right, Yeah. Sure. They never called me back, so I gave up the lead by not auditioning, by not doing cold reading. However, then it was summertime and they asked me to do the I think they had finished doing Burne after reading, and George, who was on the set at the time and who was my good friend, said no, no, no, the boys really want to They always put it like this,

the boys really like you. The boys want to use you. The boys really like you. That's when during the summer I put myself on tape for cousin Arthur or uncle Arthur, and that's when I did. I did the thing. But I had auditioned, you know, from December through till June. So well, congratulations on that. I do want to bring

up you brought up George a couple of times. You you know, you talked about meeting people and a variety of people on projects and how much you love that you guys ended up becoming roommates, and well, yes, we were roommates. We were roommates because it was an Oscar and Felix thing he he had. He had split with his wife and so he stayed with me for a while before he uh got his other place. And then I used to stay at his house. So was I a roommate? No, I was a guest at his house.

But I would never call us roommates. Wouldn't say no. But but we did stay together because of circumstances. Do you and he do you all talk about work and what interests you and potentially people or projects that that he has steered you or you have steered him into. Never once have I steered him into anything, given advice. I used to be astounded at some things. There was a role, I mean, he's so smart. There was a role. He He wasn't a big it wasn't a star then,

but he was getting offers and big things. He was offered a role on a script that he really liked. We would talk about I really loved the script, that really and you'd be surprised by it. And then they rewrote it and he looks at it and he goes this this, they rewrote it severally, called the producers or called the director. He said, this is not it's not good. But we got to go back to the other one. They do well, We're not going to He ended up not doing the movie. It was a big budget movie

and it did not do well. Number one, another big star are got the role. He walked away and it was probably a million dollars maybe more. It was a big movie. It bombed, It bombed. That still stays with me that he is so astute, and he always says, you know these movies that they haven't finished the script, but there's already a coming attraction in the theater. No, no, no, you go into a movie when the script is finished,

you know how it ends. Now you can't tell that the Humphrey Bogarten and Ingrid Bergman because they kept rewriting Casa Blanca. But I understand that. On the flip side, for myself, he is always so intuitive and has great opinions and can give great advice. And there are times when I don't take it and he gets furious of me. He's truly angry. I'll tell you he's angry at me. Then I go I I did it, but we don't talk about work that much at all, No, hardly, hardly,

hardly talk about work at all. Plus season, especially now he's in a sphere of things that you know, it would be like asking, uh, some little soldier who's out in the field, what what we should do in the Ukraine. It's it's it's just the heads and tails above my sphere. Well, I think it's fascinating that you both are such good friends. The idea that you, you know, what you just said that he had the ability to turn down something that was a million dollars or whatever, and again you you

say yes to everything. And what's fascinating to me about that is not I mean, you know, of people have different choice or whatever, but that that for you, it feels to me like that you say yes to life basically absolutely I'm going to is something that's really interesting. This really really interesting. And it happened last night. I didn't get to see the Barbara Walters special that they did where they celebrated her life and she asks the celebrity a lot of them, what is your philosophy of

life or what is something like that? In my head, I'm thinking, what if I was interviewed by what is my Philansphy? I want what we were talking about. I want new experiences of everything, travel, food, my glib thing about a date. If you are at a restaurant, your favorite meal is on the menu, or the house specialty is on the menu, what do you order? I I will ask about the house specialty, and if I believe from the person who is serving me that it's really something,

I will order that for sure. I am close to you. There's not a prayer. I'm not ordering the house specialty. I don't care if they say it's the steps throw up. I'm ordering the house specialty. That's what I do. I'll never have that again. Where will I be You say it's the specialty, okay, unless it's like the fish of the day, because oh we had we ordered too much that.

But if they if I'm told that this Polish restaurant has duck and and it's the best thing ever, and I'm not really much for duck, I'll order the duck. That's how I lived my life. I want the new experience. That's what I want. Out of two hours of Barbara Walters. They haven't shown George. He's the one who they that's what he answers. Seconds from when I answer in my head, George goes, I'm afraid I'm going to miss out on something.

I'm afraid I'm gonna miss out on this experience. Then I'll die without having done that, and the same answer, Yeah, I was the same answer, a little different words. I think I just want to experience everything. But you're right, that's what life is. I tell my kids that, and when they don't listen, I want to grab them by the lapels and say, no, do this. I invited my children to the Kennedy Center Ronners. I can't force them to go, and I wasn't going to It's the fucking

Kennedy Center Honors. Chances are if you don't go with me, you're never going to the Kennedy Center Honors. You're not gonna meet Gladys Nate, you're not going to meet the President of the United States. There's a chance, a real good chance, you're gonna meet all of them if you go with me. They said no, I'm okay with that a little bit. I understand they don't want to be in that, they're young doing that, but that that that's what I want. That that's my philosophy and I do

embrace life. That's I want it all and I am of oma was fear of missing out, fear of missing out. Yeah, it takes it takes me forever to you know, to get to a party, but to leave all close the place up. You and I are alike in that way, and I will I will tell you this one. I've always respected your work. I respect you even more now

and too out of this conversation. I will never ever forget the dream that you told me because it's so aspirational, which would be if they had the money to do a guest star part every single week, to be your own repertory company. I think that is I think that is so fucking cool. I think that well, I have a question because I so love your work. Uh, how often do you get to do place? Not? Not not so much anymore, but you know, you know what's so

funny about that? And who knows, maybe this conversation will make me do I have been talking about it like a lot the less months, and I'm not talking about a long run. I'm talking about going to Seattle and doing it for three weeks or finding out a gunquet is doing. Uh, you know there's one play out in a Gunkuet, Maine. Because the thing about TV, which it gets scary, is that you walk on set and your goal is to get through the day, is to do I know all my lives? Not even do I know

my character? Do do I do? I gotta get all the words out. That's no way to act, you know. The way to act is going and really parts a place, be getting deep. Yeah, that's what it is. So anyway, Richard, thank you so much for coming on here. You have one made me laugh and two inspired me. So thank you, thank you. But I really hope is that I like I talk like this, that I'm not pompous. I can't stand it. Wait if I listen back and I go, why do you even talking? No? No, it's awesome, it's awesome.

Thank you so much, thank you, thank you, Richard. Thank you so much for stopping by for a little chat. I'm going to see you on a golf course very very soon. Look, I think it's safe to say, not just me, but all of us are mad about you. Yeah. That wasn't good either. To all of you out there listening. Thank you for tuning in. Next week. We have got a pretty pretty exciting guest coming your way, who I will give you absolutely no hints about, because well, I

value the power of surprise. We'll see you then. Off the Beat is hosted an executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive producer Lang Lee. Our senior producer is Diego Tapia. Our producers are Liz Hayes, Hannah Harris, and Emily Carr. Our talent producer is Ryan Papa Zachary, and our intern is Sammy Cats. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by the one and only Creed Bratt,