Kevin Rahm

And I literally went, oh, you poor thing. The look at my face is like, you dumb sat I am Kevin Rom, and I am proud to say that I am the second lead of the acclaimed short film moose Cock. Hello everybody, and welcome back to Yes Off the Beat. I am, as always your host Brian baum Gartner, and today's episode, well, I am very excited to welcome the

amazing Kevin Rom into the studio. Kevin has been and on some of the biggest shows of all time, from Desperate Housewives to Mad Men to most recently, Madam's Secretary and man does Kevin have range? On Desperate Housewives, he played Lee McDermott for over sixty episodes and he got in touch with his sillier side his words. On mad Men, of course, he played Ted chaw a k A rival

to the one and only Don Draper. Truly, guys, Kevin is he is one of the best in the business, and so today I'm excited to deep dive into his career, from his lgbt Q representation on Desperate Housewives to what it means to be part of mad Men's lasting legacy, and of course, as you heard in his open, we will also talk about his biggest accomplishment to date, working with me, Brian and Bam Gartner for our acclaimed short

film Moosecock. Yes you did hear that right, Moosecock? I know, I know, with all the moose Cock swirling in your brains, the suspense must be killing you. So here he is now, Kevin rom Bubble and Squeak. I love it. Bubble and Squeak on Bubble and Squeaker cookie every month left over from the Nabby people. What's up, Brian? How you doing, buddy, Kevin? I'm so happy to see you. What is going on, my friend? It's a lot and nothing and a lot, and it's been forever. It has been forever. It's great

to see you. I am delighted every time I see you on TV. That's all. There's something about seeing somebody who you worked with so early on, and you're like, yes every time, every time, just excited, excited, uh, looking

forward to yeah, all the good things. It's funny that there came around the time that we met, it stopped being a competition between other actors for me personally, Like I I got to the point of my career where if they were gonna cast me, it's like putting nutmeg in and if they're gonna cast you, it's like putting a little more spicy something. And so it didn't feel like a competition. If like they're going to choose the best spice for the soup, and these are my comrades

in arms, you know what I mean. Yeah, that's really an interesting point, right, Like they the proverbial, they are not choosing someone better, They're just choosing someone different ideally. I mean, look, look, I've I've shot the bed in many auditions, so like there are times when they chose

someone better because I was of all. But when it comes down to it, if you're if you're right for the role, and you're you're what you're around, what they're looking for, and you know there's another guy who's different than you, and you know like I I read I tested for, according to Jim, to be the brother in law. Okay, have you seen according to Jim, I've seen according to Jim. Yes, we we are. We are different. We are completely different

human beings. And and like I walked into the screen test and I was like, Okay, so it's either him or me. There's no there's no in between. Like They're gonna go one way or the other, and I'm gonna give my best version of it in this testing situation. That's so awkward anyway, and then they're gonna they're gonna choose. But I didn't take it. You know, it still sucks, But um, you can acknowledge that it was a different they were. They were making a different soup than what

I was bringing to the two. Yes, but you but yes. But so at around the time we met, you started being able to be happy for other people or other people you have, Matt. Yeah, before before that, it was a competition. You know, there was a pie. There was only so many slices, you know that metaphor. And around the time that we met, I started to get in a place where I was like, you know, there's room

for there's place for everybody. To do well. Right, all right, we're gonna talk about our meeting here very shortly, but I want to I want to go back to your childhood for just a little bit. You grew up in Texas As, Louisiana, Louisiana and Texas. Born in Texas, raised in Louisiana, finished high school in Texas. Okay, but you also were in Atlanta, because you know, I was in Atlanta, Atlanta, Texas, Atlanta, Texas. Yes, Atlanta high School in a clean city in Texas to

very soon. I think they were the running rabbits, and I think there were I want to say, eight thousand people in the towne tiny little town. That makes sense that I haven't heard of it. And also I was going to ask you Atlanta high School I wasn't familiar with. Was born and bred there. Um the running rabbits that suits you. Actually you are, You're kind of like a rabbit. I feel like quick, just used to be quick, yeah, shifty? Maybe did you do sports in high school or early

on or early on? And then like eighth grade, I just like I was playing football. I just located and I was never gonna be a football player. Let's let's be real clear I was. I was five ft on my freshman year, um five to my sophomore year, and I didn't grow until much later in high school. So I I quickly went into to debate and spiting debate, which led me to theater in a weird way. And then um I did. I did cheerleading for one year at at an all boys Catholic school, all all boys.

I was about to ask if you you were small, if you were if you were strong enough to to lift people up, but apparently you were lifted. Well, that's very funny you to think that. And I can see that, and and uh, and I think in retrospect, I probably should have been the one being lifted. We had an all girls sister school, well and they are girl cheerleaders came from them, and so but Leah Leah Leah Hudson, who's who's still friends of mine, was my cheerleading partner.

And we were definitely the weakest links like we were. We were the bottom. But they needed eight couples and they're like we they had seven, and they're like, okay, well let Leah Kevin, come on, I guess we need eight. Let's go. We were we were not very good and we had a lot of fun. Though. Wow, I'm sure, But now, wait a second. Isn't the point of an all boys school to keep the boys and girls separate yet lifting and cohording physically, I don't understand. Look, I

made a very smart decision. I could either have gone to two days in the summer and be around a bunch of sweaty, sweaty men smelling, with no chance of ever playing the game because I was the third string. Or I could go to cheerleading camp where there were ten guys and four hundred girls. Right. I mean to be clear though, to be the weakest length on the cheerleading squad, but at least you're playing. At least you're at least I'm on the team. Man, I'm I. I

got a letter. I am suited up. Do you have a letter? I got a letter? Yeah? Oh yeah, well no, well it's not a jacket's a sweater. It's a sweater. It's a letter sweater. They didn't give us. They would they literally the football team was like, no, they can't have jackets, they can have sweaters. All the jocks are like, no, that's not cool. Okay, so you're cheerleading, but you really start focusing on debate and that brings you to theater. So you you started doing plays? Yeah, so I you know,

debate was my thing. Man, I I love debate. I thought I wanted to go to law school. My grandmother said I could argue with a signpost, and so I when I moved high schools. When I quit the school in Streeport, Louisiana, always Catholic school, I went to a public school in East Texas and they didn't have a theater, they didn't have a debate program for they had a

huge drama program. So I got I got kind of thrown into a drama class, and like I had done, I did two Shakespeare plays my freshman and sophomore year, not by choice because my big brother quote unquote for the senior you have a senior as a freshman. He was like, you're auditioning for the play. And I was like, no, I'm not. He goes, yeah, yeah you are, and I was like okay. He was much bigger than I was, and he bought my beer on the weekend, So I said, okay, So I I did. I did. We did Julius Caesar

my freshman year and it was fun. You know, I got the attention from the girls from the all girls school that way as well. And and then when I got to Atlanta, Texas, Yeah, they had a huge drama program and I kind of just jumped in that. That's where you you got the bug or you decided this is what you wanted to do. Well, I definitely got the bug. This is pre internet, this is pre you know.

No one had from any of those towns had gone on to make something of themselves in our industry, and so there was never a thought to do it professionally. It wasn't until I got to college and I thought, I really enjoyed that in high school, maybe I should try it in college. And I saw play. I saw a two hander, Um, I can't think of anyw right now, A guy girls show and it was really good and the girl I fell in love with and she was amazing,

and um, Tally's Folly. That's the play I saw and I was like, Wow, I should try that in college. And that's when that's when I jumped into the theater program. And that's when I was like, Okay, I'm gonna do this. I didn't know what I was gonna do, but I was going to do this, and uh, and I died. He was going to play every semester and never looked back from there doing a ton of THEA. So yeah, similar to me, I found it like as an activity

to do. Yeah, that was what I was gonna do in high school and right before college actually I decided, oh I think I could actually do do this, and so I went to school for it. It seems seems like you were a little bit later. But this is at b y U. Is that right? Where did you go? Where did you go to college? Just study study theater SMU? Oh? Wow, they had a good program, didn't they. Yeah, they did, thank you for I mean obviously, I see. He was one of the programs that I thought about going to

grad school. Okay, I thought about because my intent when I was in college, my intent was to go to grad school, get the m f A, and then go to New York. And that was that was my intent. And of course and like all, you know, all other plans that changed. But um, that was the thought. You're at b y U and you think you're going to go to grad school. Uh, well, at the first two years of b y U, the thought is I'm gonna go to law school. Um, this is just for doing

the theater for fun. Um, gonna go to law school because that's how, you know, that's how I move up in the world. And then like I just got the bug, and I staid. Then I started working and I started loving it, and I was like, unbeknownst to me, I created a grad program for myself just by being lazy and not going to the other classes. And so four years in, I'm like, Okay, I need another year of

education before I can graduate. And it's all general education, Like I needed sophomore English, and I needed to religion classes and I needed math. And my two best friends were leaving college and I was like, I can't be here anymore. I'm taking someone spot. I wasn't. I was pretending to be Mormon at the time, you know. I was like, I can't. I gotta get out of here. This is not for me. Um. And by one of my best friends went to a c T and grad to grad school. My of the best friend went to

New York to be an actress. And I was like, I'm already getting paid. I've already done. I'm sag eligible. I've done two movies of the week I've done Promised Land and touched by an Angels guest stars. I'm moving to l A. Let's go, Let's pack my eight Honda Accord with one working headlight. Let's go to Los Angeles. And so you decide to go to Los Angeles. But wait, I can't just you were pretending to be Mormon. What I don't explain that Mormon. I grip Mormon. Okay, you

grew up, well, I grew up Mormon. I was baptized Mormon, and then I did a mission for two years to nineteen to twenty one. I went knocked on doors in Switzerland and France, on islands East South Africa and tried to condunce where I heard yes, yeah, and then uh. And then I would go to buy U, mainly because I knew if I went anywhere else to my friends from high school at I would leave. Woman is very quicker, probably like all my friends were at l s U

and UT and and uh and m um. And I was like, I can't go Eric, so I'll get in trouble fast. And so I went to be by you, trying to be the good boy. And then within two years I was like this is not for me. I gotta get out of this, and I then you did. But you have to be doing the things to stay there, Like you have to go to church, you have to have a bishop sign a thing saying you're doing all the things, and so you have to lie ultimately. Um

so I I just I was. I had to. You know, I'd go to Salt Lake with my friends on Saturday night and then I'd teach Sunday school on Sunday morning. So that was That's what pretending to be Mormon means. Right. Okay, So because you did the missionary trip, you're older. Yeah, right, so you you started started at one, right, so that makes sense like that, you know, you're you're thinking about grad school. But at that point, you know, you start

to get experience, you start to get maturity. As you said, you start to get jobs. Now, when you worked on Touch by an Angel? Was that filmed in Utah? Is that how you promised? Land? And Touched by an Angel were both shot in Salt Lake City, in and around Salt Lake. Uh. And they always had like one movie the week came through every year, a big movie would come through every year. They had a they had a decent you know, had a decent market in Salt Lake.

And then you know, there was a modeling agency in salt Lake. CYS. This funny story. Actually Aaron eck Cart was a year ahead of me at the way, and he was a film student, not really in the acting tract, you know, and and he was getting work as a mom. He was with this modeling agency. And I was like, if that guy can get work, I can get work. And I went and got his agent because he would be he was like the helicopter pilot and like you know,

he was like he would get these day jobs. They're paying like five hundred bucks a day, and I'm like, I can do that. That's better than delivering flowers on the weekend, you know what I mean, Like, I'll go do that. And uh so I literally went to Salt Lake and got his agent and that's how I started. I was like, I started booking you know, blue local commercials and radio spots and all that kind of stuff.

It was a hand model for one day once. Just the left hand though, it's better than the right hand. Your left hand is more attractive than you're right. That's that's that's what I was told. That's what I was told by professionals. I'm just gonna leave that. I don't I don't need to go deep into this, but I will tell you a story about Salt Lake because you say you went out in Salt Lake. Now now things are different. Things are different now I understand. And I

have been back. And by the way, salt Lake City, beautiful city, very nice, beautiful state. Utah. I love it now. I there was another show that filmed there that I happened to do a couple of episodes on. I think ever would film there in Utah. And I remember arriving. This is such a tangent. I remember arriving on the day of the National Championship Basketball tournament, right, so the final four, but the championship day it's always a Monday. I check into the hotel and I'm like, where is

a bar? I want to watch the game. I'm a sports fan. And they were like, okay, well it's down And I remember walking down this highway. Walking down this highway, it starts snowing and I get to a sports bar just think Chili's, I don't know, and they asked me for my membership number and I'm like, this is a sports what do you and you had to have you had to be registered in order to enter and established

join the private club. Yes, to join the private club of Applebee's or whatever, like you literally had to join. It's where the it's it's behind the ropes of Applebee's, right like it's like the v I P of Applebee's. And I was like, well can I yeah? No, No, it was like two dollars. I was like, how much is it to join? Two dollars? But I guess I'm registered in the state of Utah for having him at that one Applebee's just that one app it was. It

just not. It's like if you go if you go down to a weaverer, it does not it's not transferred to the not it's not transferable, no non transfer. So my version of that is I met by U just side I want a beer. I'm like, I'm done with Mormonism. I just all I want is a beer. I haven't had a beer in probably five or six seven years. And probably the hot beverage or a hot Toddy you a hot beverage, yest um, those are just as bad. Obviously, you know your Mormonism, you know your Word of wisdom.

So uh, there's there was two bars in Provo. One of them was called the ABC Bar dive a little dive bar in downtown Provo, and the other one was at the Marriott, which you could possibly run into someone. And so I figured, anyone who I run into with the ABC Bar is not gonna knock on me, because I'm not gonna ork on them. The joke is, if you want to drink a beer, invite invite one Mormon over, because if you invite you know, two Mormons over, they won't drink, but one who don't drink your beer. Um,

So you go in. I go up to the door and I have I'm poor college student, I have like twenty dollars in my pocket. And I get to the door and the door guy goes, are you a member? And I think of the church, and I'm like um, because I'm I I have the Mormon boy haircut, I'm in Khaki's like I look like a Mormon missionary still, and he goes, are you a member? And I went, um, no, and he goes of the bar, you have to be

a member of the bar. And I'm from Louisiana where at fourteen you could walk up to anywhere and did give up here for free. And I was like, whatever, kid here have a have a hurricane twelve year old and so I'm like, I have to be a member. I was so confused. I was like, get to be a member of what? He was the bar? You have to join the bar? And I said how much? And he told me twenty bucks. And I had twenty bucks in my pocket and that's if I pay them to join.

I can't afford to buy a drink, and so I I go, I just kind of go, dude, I only have twenty dollars. And he goes, well, someone can sponsor you. And then he turns and he goes, anyone here, I want to sponsor this kid. And there's like maybe ten people, like a dartboard in the back and the jukebox and it's like the record skips. Everyone turns and looks at me and they all look me up and down, pause, and then look away. Not one person, not one person sponsored me. And I was like, oh my god, this

is awful. I just want okay, and I just I I sunk my head and I went home. I did not get a beer. That I did not get a beer. Well, you had you had people, You had people even though you thought there was nobody watching you, there were people watching you. Oh yeah, yeah someone someone was watching the Lord. The Lord was watching. Yes, the Lord was watching you. Moved to Los Angeles and then what you you work to get an agent and you start auditioning. Is this

this is how it goes. So I was I was ahead of the game because you know, um, well, an agent wouldn't see you at the time unless you were eligible or already SAG. And you know, it's kind of like you have to get a job to become SAG, but no one would give you a job unless you were SACK. It's one of those. And so the way to get your SAG card is either to be come an extra for multiple days where you had to become friends with the A D s and they give you

a voucher and that takes a while. And the other way is to get cast in something where they called us staff heartley you know this, but the audiences don't know what's called taff heart lead and they have to pay a fine to hire you and say, there's no one else you can do this job in town that's union. So we're gonna make this kid eligible. And so I did that in Utah. So I was ahead of the game.

But by being sag eligible, I had I had a tape at the time, literally on tape, so I had, I had, I had five minutes of me on camera that I could show people. And I had won this acting award in college, and so I thought that was gonna be a big entryway. And so and then David Giella, who was the casting director for touched fin Angel and promised land at the time I reached out to him. He actually reached out to me and said when are you moving down? And I said, actually, I'm coming in

a couple of months. And he goes, okay, well, let me know when you get in town. And I put together I spent, like you, two hundred dollars at Kinko's money I didn't have making color copies of the newspaper stuff from when I winned this playwriting of this National Acting Award, um and the and the play I was in when the National Playwriting Award and we get to perform it in Kennedy Center and d C. And it's like the heisman of acting, right and but but that's

no one knows about it, so the know the Irene. Yeah, this is a big Granny clamp It award is my friends.

My friends call it the Granny clamp It Award. Um. So, I I put together this packet and like my resume and but like it's mainly it's like it's like ten color pages of this stuff about the Irene Ryan and the National Player running awards stuff and uh I submitted David gave me, Uh, David Giella gave me like twenty agencies to submit to, and I so, I twenty copies of this that I submitted, you know, Tension so and so at this agency referred by David Kiela. Just say

that as I can't. I say, there's twenty of them that I submitted to, like three of them. Some assistant called new is, Hey, dude, come pick this up. It's they're gonna throw it away. And it's just this you put to get a lot of work into this. It's really nice. I don't want to throw it away. You'd probably come pick it up. I'm like, okay, thanks. No

word from anyone else. And then two of them call me. Um, I get two meetings out of it, and like one of them is the artist agency where I ended up UH signing with at the time, and uh, I said, so what about the Like I just for my reference, Like, what did you like about the packet? They're like, what packet? I'm like, the twenty pages of color copies of information about my my accolades from college theater um that clearly

or the reason I'm in this room. They're like, oh no, no, we just saw David's name on the cover and that someone called you. It's nothing to do. You could have written said hey, David said call you, and we would have called you. I was like, oh, cool, thanks, It's like all that energy and like, uh, that's so good. By the way, I did the same thing. I'm sure no one called me. No one called me to pick up my packet. I ran into one of fairly recently. You had the packet still, I had it somewhere, Yes,

I ran into it, like in my archives. I don't know, do I have an archive in my hope somewhere, I hope somewhere there's a copy of that. I know, I know I have some old head shots and stuff like that, but I hope somewhere is I mean, somewhere is the newspaper clippings. But I don't know if the colored copied. I couldn't. I couldn't. I couldn't spend the extra money to get the spiraling put on it. Like that was

too much, right, I think I stapled it. What were some of the challenges for you starting out once you moved to Los Angeles? Did it? Was it easier, harder than you expected it to be, or it was hard? It was? It was hard. I mean, like I uh,

it seemed like this impenetrable fortress. Like it's felt like you were walking up to like one of those old Babylonian cities and there's a there's one gate and you can you can hear what's happening inside, and but you can't figure out your way over this wall or through this gate, and it just felt like there was it felt like it was really slow, like everything was just

crazy slow. It's like, you know, I put all this together and email mailed him and I you mailed him at the time, like instead of drapping, they're not gonna let you drop them off, so you have to wait a week before you could possibly hear something. You know, so it's like a week of doing what what do I do for a week? Uh? You know, you get a job to make money. I played basketball and pickup games and outdoor parks, and you know, it's like what

do you do with your time? I hadn't found an acting class yet, um, so I started waiting tables, and I just feel like a long time until I got situated. I had some horrible apartment experiences, and I mean I rented a room from this cat lady that I found, you know, and I can't remember where I found the ad, but like I read it was like, you know, less

than two d a month. I was renting this one room in this house of this woman who managed the house and the apartments behind it, and I literally there was just dog and cat hair everywhere, and like I would just go in there and sleep at night that I'd leave all day because I didn't know what to do, Like what do you do? So eventually you get a role in Jesse, Yes, and then what your first well before the first one was Everything's Relative. So that was

four episodes. It was me and Jeffrey Tambor, Jill Clayburgh and Eric Schaefer. It was they, it was Want to Be Arrested Development, it was Mitch Hurwitz, it was Jim Valley, Geniuses, and I was de Bateman character and to put out the center of the family, keeping everyone together. And they hadn't figured it out yet, right, they hadn't worked it out yet, But I read for that once a month for six months, Alison Jones would bring me in and I would read, and they'd be like, that's exactly what

we're looking for. Who's next? Because they were looking for ja They wanted Jason Bateman. They wanted someone with the name to come in and be the lead of their show. And finally they cast Jeffrey Tambor and then they could cast and nobody as the as the guy as the kid, and uh. We did four episodes. We were after just shoot me, I think on NBC in the in the spring, and they candid immediately, and then I jumped on Jesse. That's what then people in the business know who I

knew who I was. I did another pilot right after that with Patrick Warburton. Patrick and I did a pilot together called Jeff of the Universe, where I was Jeff and uh and my claim to fame at the times I read again like one of the people reading for that role was John Cryer, and I was like, I walked into the audition room, and I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? I'm reading against John Carr. There's no way I get this job. Of course, Ducky gets this job. How do I? How do I get a job? It's

John Craiger. John Kraiger is gonna get this job. And I think because he was one of the people testing, I completely relaxed, And I think that's why I got the job, because I was like, oh, I'm not going to get this job, so I'm just gonna try to be the best I can in this room. So for the next job, right, maybe they'll maybe these people like me and I'll get up. I'll get another part of the show later on. So I think that's part of the reason I booked that pilot. And then then I

jumped then I jumped on Jesse that summer. It was like that was back to back to back those three jobs. So your career is is taking off at this point? Yes, Yeah, you're starting to feel good and confident. Oh maybe a little too confident confident maybe maybe a little maybe a little too confident, I'm not. Yeah, and then judging Amy, yeah, that's your first long time show, right, more than more that Yeah, Jesse, I did one year. Everything's relative was

four episodes. This was three seasons, like I did three full years of twenty two episodes a year. I bought my house like this is That was the one that like, okay, I can't Yeah, I'm now a working actor full time. And then we met right after I left judging Amy. Yeah, no, so that's where I'm gonna go. I mean, for first off three years and that stability that that brings. What

did that? What did that give you as an actor? Uh? Well, beside your house a little besides a home and literally my first home, like my first not just a house, but my first home where I I created a safe place for myself. That was the positive side of it. It gave me boodles of confidence as I when working with Tyne Daily and Amy Brennaman on the regular and feeling like I was holding my own with them made me feel like I deserve to be in the room.

I deserve to be in the in the talk like I felt like I and and and really naively of myself. I felt like, Okay, I've been number three on a TV hit, hit, acclaimed TV show, not not as not as part of the Zeitgeister a juggernaut ratings wise, but like well respected. It's respected for its acting at least, you know, yep. Um. So the next step is I'll get my own show. That's the next step. And so maybe a little too confident looking into that when I

walked out of Judging Gavey. So I leave Judging Amy and it's like, uh, they're gonna do one more year. They're letting um uh oh gosh, what I'm gonna say. I can't lave forgo this name. He left the show. He was gonna come back for the last year, and I had replaced him mostensib plice. So anyway, so that I anyway, so I leave, I leave the show, and I'm like, right and high man, this is like this

coming this back when they had pilot season. You know, I leave in the spring, I have this summer off I do it, you know, motorcycle trip to Europe, blah blah blah. And then that that like November, I get an audition for this cable show for a network I've never heard of. And it's a really good script, like really like I was like, holy cow, this is amazing.

And I go in and I meet the creator and I read for it and they're like, yeah, we want you to test for this, and I get the test deal and it is half of my quote for half of the amount of episodes. Right. So, and this is November, so pilot seasons January February where I'm gonna get my own show because that's what happens next. And this is like an ensemble show. And I'm definitely not the lead, not even like maybe like the fifth lead. But it's a really really good script and I really like this guy.

I wrote it and and I said, good look, guys, I can't I can't test for this. This is not you know, I'm gonna take a fourth of my pay and I'm gonna I'm about to get my own show, guys, So thank you, but good luck with your little show on a network called f X whatever that is. Uh. That show was The Shield, um and and so uh

and that person was Sean Ryan who who who? And I look, I don't know that I would have gotten the part, but I was in the I was in the mix for the part, right and then I what I what happened that pilot seasons if if you can guess already is I did not get my own show. Not only did I not get my own show, I did not get any shows I tested. I don't know how many times I tested, but it was in the high teams. I tested for things and didn't book anything. And I learned. My lesson I learned was that zero

times five years is still zero. And I was. I was a little humbled after that year. And this brings us to moose Cock o Man. I mean, listen, Kevin and I met on a little project and it's called moose Coock. It exists out there, it's out there, and so coming off of of this show, I'm more surprised

that you said yes than I did. I had, at the time, shot a pilot for a show called The Office that everyone, including you, oh Will, every everybody that I worked with, was sure was doomed for absolute failure. I owe you the biggest apology. I was so unbelievably condescending to you that day. I'm sure of it. I'm sure I don't remember exactly you told me. You told me I just shot a pilot. I'm like, oh, good for you, we just met. Oh good for congratulations. Man.

What's the pilot? It's the American version of the office and I literally went, oh the got my face is like, you, dumb sap. I hope you. I hope you saved every fucking penny they gave you. This ship is going nowhere. Have you seen the original office. There's no way, There's no one you can cast to compete. There is no Steve Carrell PI out there to create this. Oh my god, I was so everyone Will Will, our director writer was condescending. We were all like you, pour, dumb sap. Hopefully this

makes it to festivals for you. Um we we we both we both said yes. Now I have to tell you. I don't know. I need to know from you if this is true for you. I mean I do a lot of appearances of colleges. Now I'm invited. I'm not just hanging out our campus. Important notes important note. That's the important note. Good information. But undoubtedly some smartass in the audience will raise their hands end and start talking effusively about admiring my work. Uh in Moosecock and it

is a title that brings confusion unsettled ness? Is that a word? I don't think so? Are you asked about Moosecock? Not as often? Not as often as you are I'm not doing that my college experience. I my college tours aren't sanctioned, and so I'm just hanging out looking for a cheap salad. So uh, I feel like college kids are the ones who are going to do a deep dive on IMDb to say the funny thing in front of their buddies. So they're gonna find it. Um yeah, So no, I don't. I don't get it as much.

I get it like every every once in a while, right, but you know, not as all. Well, it's there, it's a part of the record. It's really funny. It is. It's funny. It's funny the stuff, the stuff we got to do together, and I loved I mean, you got to go that, you went on and did all of this other stuff that I wasn't up part of. But like I that was a fun day for me. Like I really enjoyed shooting that with you. Yes, and I like he let us play, it was like it was

the whole thing. Like I really enjoyed that experience. That was one of the that was one of the first times I walked onto a set and felt confident to play, you know what I mean, Like because it was will we knew it was our buddy and he and he cast us because he knew we could do it, and so I didn't feel any weird pressure about being something

or doing something an extra Yeah. No, I remember it being incredibly fun and never could I have dreamed it could have won the Oscar and I it would not have gotten as much attention but for the name for me all these years later, I love you still get it? Oh yeah, um, no comment. So things don't go quite as you expect them to go. However, shortly thereafter you start a run of shows, historic shows, one might say, I'm very, very jealous of this, and I mean this sincerely.

With Desperate Housewives, starting on a show that's already established that you don't have to sort of fight to invent. The world is there and created by the time you get on, talk to me a little bit. Were you a fan? Had you watched Desperate Housewives before auditioning, or how did that come about? I I was like everyone else in the country for the first two seasons, I was. I was a fan. I watched religiously, loved the ladies, loved what they were doing. I loved Marks, the tone

that Mark took with the show. I thought it was so unique and interesting and um, there's a reason it's it was part of the zeitgeist. Um. And then I got the audition for it. And it's funny because like I was dating my now wife long distance and she, uh, she we she had come to visit me in l A. And of course, the minute she booked a flight to

come visit me, I booked a job. And I was doing an episode of Scrubs as a guest and my character had had been bitten by a tick and had lines disease, and so they finally had to shave my head to find the tick. And so I'm in a ball cap and my audition, let's say, let's say it's

at four o'clock. My auditions at four o'clock for Housewives, and I'm supposed to read for leak for Bob, and they don't let me out there and let me I take my ball cap off until like three thirty, and they're like, if you're not here by four, you can't

get in. And I raced down this down the street from each other, and she's in the car with me, and I pull up to the lot and uh that that that entrance entrance through on the left at Universal, I had like ten minutes to get in and I'm like, I'm racing and I give my a D and he's like, okay, what about her? And I'm like what about her? He's like, she can't, she's not on the list. I'm like, well, she's with me. She's just gonna sit in the car this okay, And they're like, no, no, she can't come

on along. I'm like, no, well, I don't understand what you what do you want her to sit on the curb? Like what do you want for me right now? And I'm I just I'm getting so mad at this poor person doing their job and becoming I I'm like, what do you They're like, yeah, she's got I'm like, no, she's I'm not. And my now wife Amy, she goes, Kevin,

go to your audition. I'm gonna stay, I'm gonna get out of the car and I'm gonna stand here on the curb while and I'm like, no, you are, and I'm not letting you stand on the curb while I go read this. And I'm not even sure I want to do this. I'm not even sure I want to be on the show. And so I go, so I find going to the I get there like three fifty nine, and I go in and I read Bob and Bark. Sheera goes, did you look at Lee? And I go, yeah, he's funnier, and he goes, will you look at it?

Go yeah, give me two minutes. It's fine, give me two minutes. And I go outside and I look at it for two minutes and I come back in and I just become a bitchy queen. I just I'm like mm ummmmmmm. And and that's so I think the gate guard because I think because I was so heated when I walked in, that's time I got the job. And now my wife takes full credit for me getting that job. But yeah, it was walking into an established world. Uh, it was just fun like it was just play. And

they would write. They would just write the biggest, funnest stuff for me, and I would just see if I could do it, and uh, and I would say, let's go, let's how big? And there was one one of my favorite moments of the whole show is there and I when I read it, I laughed out loud. And then it's a it's a sight gag where they're like and behind her, you see Lee skating down the street like roller skating, and they never explain it, they never see it. Again.

I never talked about skating, but I'm wearing like shorts and kneepads and like a bright yellow sweater vest and and I skateboard. I mean I I roller skate behind you know, like I just it was just silly and fun, and uh yeah it started. It started a run of like, if you want your show to end in three years, I'm your guy. Bring me in about three more good years and then we're done. People. Yeah, but that's that's not a bad number of years. No, No, that's a

good number. Mark Cherry, the creator who you mentioned, has said that he wanted to treat Lee and Bob like the heterosexual couples on the show. Um. Yeah, this is an approach that is ahead of its time at this point, right for network television to treat them just like any other couples. Obviously, gay marriage is not legalized at this point. Did he talk to you about this or did this This is a part of the conversation. He introduced me as the fifth housewife in the in the room and

the right, and like any time we depressed anytime. He's like, Lee is the fifth housewife. That's the that's and that's how he That's how everybody thought of them, you know. And some people were okay with it, and some weren't, and some people were different versions of okay with it. Um. I mean, one of the one of my audition scenes was the scene with Terry Hatcher where she shows up to give us, to introduced herself and give us cookies, and she realizes in the scene that we're not couples.

We're not we're not at partners as in business partners, were life partners. And like the moment that that realization happens was one of my audition scenes. And I added this bit in the audition where she suppose we say something, she says something, we say something, and then she realizes and uh, it's between her lines that she realizes. And so in between the pause, I just turned the bob and I go, wait for it. She and then she realizes which killed in the audition, right, It killed in

the audition. It wasn't on the page and it killed in the audition. And then I I made the mistake of doing it in rehearsal without telling her on my first day and and she goes, what are you What are you doing? What are you doing that's not on the page? And I was like, oh, I just did something I did in the audition and they thought it was funny. She goes, yeah, I don't. I don't. We're not going to do it like that, are we can?

Like turn to the director and he goes, no, no, we're not gonna do because what you realize is they cut away. They would cut away from her instead, so it wouldn't the camera wouldn't stay on her. It would cut away to me and go back to her. And she's like, no, we're gonna stay on me, the new boy. We don't know you yet. We'll see you might. You might earn that tape later, but we'll see. For now, the camera is going to stay on the lead of the show. I was like, okay, cool, good enough, good

to know that. Yeah, it's so good. I love Terry. Uh. Um, what do you think that show's legacy is today? It's it's hard. It was so big at the time, it was so big. It was so big. Um. I have really good friends from that Still, I don't know. I don't know where it will stack up. Look, it's not it's not mash for me, you know, it's not Sopranos for me. But as far as comedies, man, it's up there.

It'll be interesting in fifteen years from now to see if it holds up, you know what I mean, and whether or not it feels kind of universal though I I you know, I feel like it's I haven't. I haven't seen it. I don't, you know, I don't even know if it's airing anywhere right now. I'd be interested, you know it now it seems like the time of reunions, and I'd be interested to see if there would ever if that is even possible, you know, what the story would be if if it's possible to do that, or

if it's if it's just dead no water. I don't know, but you know, i'd be I'd be interested to see what those people were doing. Yeah, you mentioned the Sopranos, widely considered by myself included the greatest drama television show of all time. You put you put that, you put it above the wire. I do. For me, it's for me, it's number one, but there's there's a top five that is really close. And you were in one of those mad men. Um, Ted Chaw you joined that show late

as well. UM, just an un unbelievable for formants. I have to I have to tell you there was just this disarming confidence and presentness. There was just something that was so pleasurable, even when we weren't rooting for you, especially early on, that I just I found so remarkable. So you should feel just so good about that performance. That is very this is very very kind of you. They Um, that was a special, special special place you've

you note John Ham and you talked to him recently. Um, what he's and he's the guy you want as your number one. He's the guy you want leading the ship. As from the actor's point of view, Matt Weiner crazy smart and and and so focused and has such a strong, strong point of view, and he's the guy you want leading the ship that way, you know, demanding of everyone to bring their a game. I mean everyone from top

to bottom. I mean I there's I have so many stories about that show that there's there's a scene where my secretary hands me a plane ticket I'm going to California, and it's in front of my office and then I think, I think Lizzie comes up, Peggy comes up to complain about something, and more was handing me the ticket. I literally take the ticket I put in my pocket. Let you see it the outside of the ticket for a second, and that was it. You never you never see me

open it later. You never you know that ticket I when you open it up, is a carbon copy plane ticket like they had during the time. And I guarantee you if you look up the dates of the flights of that day, then flight numbers correct, the time is correct. It's a carbon copy. And that's one of the things I kept like. It ended up in my pocket. I took it back to my trailer and I was like, I'll give it to him tomorrow, and I forgot about it, and I at the end, I just put it in

a book and took it home. So it's in a book somewhere in my bookcase. Um. But like if they handed you a file on hersheet, it was a file on Hershe. It was twenty pages of information about Hershey, and not same page over and over again. It was someone someone somewhere had spent the weekend creating a file on Hershey candy bar. And so in the scene when

you look down at any page. You could become lost in that the world was so like there was a moment where Elizabeth had a poster of a jazz festival um and the behind her and like Matt came into a rehearsal was like, Nope, that doesn't happen for three months. Take it down, get the other one, or that's not until next year, or you know something like you know, just the detail that painting hasn't painted yet, that hasn't

happened yet. Like that. Housewives was similar in the sense that Mark Cherry and and and Matt Winer gave you the box man, here's the box, this is this is the box we're playing in, and then you could go crazy in that box. And I remember getting to lethal weapons and I was like, okay, tell me what the boxes where? You give me the box and and and they're like, that's cool, let's do whatever you're doing. Great. I'm like, no, but I need what's the what's the

give me? Give me the box man, what's give me this? But I didn't I need this box? So I can. They're like, no, you're doing what you're doing great, it's fun. I'm like, but can we And I love Matt Miller's great, but Matt Miller doesn't have the box like those He's not as he's not as uptight about his world as they are in that way. But I liked I like the box man, I like having the box. And then the confidence thing I got lucky it was that was one of those auditions were in the room. I mean

that it was at the height. Man, Everyone in l A love that. Everyone in l A knew the show. I don't know how about it. I don't know if it had won words already. It was it was part of the Psycheist already when I read for it, and in the and I don't remember who they were, but I remember in the room knowing everyone in the room, like you recognized every actor in that room. They had all done stuff, they all worked, they were all good, and it was one of those moments it's like, Okay,

here's my take, here's my take on it. This is what I think the guy doesn't is and and this is the other thing they don't. I don't know if you know this, but they they never told you who you were actually reading for and with like all the names have been changed. So when you get the audition scene, it's a scene from the show, but they don't want anyone to know what's happening in the show, so they've

changed the names. And so I just figure. I just I was like, Oh, this guy's talking to John Draper. This has to be with Don you know, if he's gonna come out, he's gonna it was this The Benny Hannes scene was my audition scene, and I was like, Oh, he's talking to Don Draper and he's sucking with him. He thinks he's as good as Don Draper. That's the guy. He's gotta he's gotta be as confident, but he's got

to do it differently. It's gotta be with a smile, right, And that's I guessed correctly in the sense of like of like what they were looking for for the role, and then brought my my my spice to it. Um. It was fun, man, it was Oh my god that it was. What a dream? What a dream? Everyone man. Jay Ferguson, Uh, we had worked together on Judging Amy and and then Slattery. We had worked together for a minute on Housewives. So when I walked into my first table read, there's two guys I know and love and

Slat's like, hey, Grom, come over here, man. You know j already cool, you know John, Hey, this is Lizzie, this is yesh Sa now and welcome to the you know, welcome to our you know. And then Matt Winer would come and be like, okay, welcome everyone. You're now part of the Madman family. Um, do not tell anybody what your character's name is. Do not telling me what year it is. If you do, we will recast you, or

we'll re shoot without you. Welcome to the show. It's like, if you want to read, if you want to read lines, do not read it with anyone else. We have someone to do that for you. If you tell anybody, if you tweet about it, if you you know, I think Twitter was just happening, Like if you if you talk about it, if you tweet about if you put it on social media, we will recast you, and we will we will do it that you welcome, Welcome. I often wondered about this because of the merger and everything else

that that happened through the show. Were you secure that you were staying around? Did you know the story enough, did you know that they were going to bring you on, continue with you or was there a point where you were sort of living in that limbo of of maybe getting downsized the Chevy, the Chevy thing. Yeah, by that point, I felt pretty confident. I felt like I felt like I had a I had a place, I had a

place in the world. But it was I never got overconfident in the sense that I and I never didn't show up prepared like that was. I didn't get to like they need me now, you know what I mean? Like I always I always felt like I was replaceable, but I didn't really get a I wasn't really afraid, like you know, like when I got cast, I was cast as a guest, a day player. Yeah, I think that's where I'm going, because it felt like you just

kind of kept surviving. It felt like a four to six episode arc rival for Don, and then you'd go away. That's what That's sort of what I thought when I when I was watching you and watching you on the show, I was like, God, that's so great. I think that's more my feeling is like that was that was so great, That was so awesome, what a great character. And then just kind of kept feeling like you were not going to be there for that log like you know what.

I'm not in like a bad way, but just like, oh, that's kind of what I what I expected the story to be. And then and then I was just so happy for you and obviously love the character and was glad you were around. Well, Brian, this is this is what I do. I show I show up on a show as a guest star, and then I just sink my hooks into him and I just charmed the pants off of him and I and I won't let him let me leave. I won't let them, you know. Paula

Malcolmson on on Deadwood. Uh, she she said to me that, you know, at this end of season one, Milts was going to kill her character. He was she was supposed to die at the end of season one. She went up to Milts and she's like, you're not killing me in her in her beautiful irishex and she ain't killing me. You can't kill me. You have to keep me. And he did. He was like he got scared of me, and he kept her. She lasted the whole whole whole series. I I there was a sense of that at first.

You know, his cast is like two maybe three episodes and it was day stuff. Man I got. My first episode was one day. The next episode I did maybe a day and a half, two days, and then um, I think the first three or four episodes were day rates. It was like you come in for the day, here's here's what we're gonna pay you. There was no negotiation. There's mad men. It's like, yeah, I'll do whatever you want, man. And then there was there was a scene where I was still day I was still day playing or at

least guest starring. And there's the scene where I've now I've I have Peggy. Peggy has come to work for me, and we have that scene where it's it's New Year's Eve and we're looking at the commercial and I walked into her office and they were like, look at each other a little longer, like like we look, we're looking at the cameras over here, and like, you know, we're looking down together. We look up and look at each other and look back down and they go just just

linger on the look a little longer. And Lizzie and I are both like why, what's what's wrong with you? And they're like, just look at each other longer, Like you've done that since you have a relationship. Later we're setting up the relationship and I'm like, oh oh, And that was like to the end of the season, and I didn't have any commitment to be on. I was like, yes, look at her as long as long. And then they're like then they're like they're like too much, wrong, too

much backing up? Wait, too much? Wait too much? No, no, no, that's now. Now you've ruined it. Now you've ruined it. Oh God, so good. So many shows you've been on that I watch actually too. Bates Motel was a fun one for me. Vera Farmiga so amazing, she's so briant, she's so there's there's a handful of actors I've worked with, and she's one of them. Lizabe Elizabeth Moss is another one, um Hams and also another one, uh tyme Daily another one.

We're in a scene Mike coverage the cameras on me and I'm watching them act and they're so good it takes me out of the scene where I'm like, holy sh it, that's good. I should how wow, that's really good, Like this is what there's playing in my head. And then I'm like, oh, shoot, I'm supposed to talk now. Um So Dawn uh, but seriously, vera. For me, it happened. There was a scene with her and Nestor and I

in my office of Bates Hotel, two of them. She was sick like like this, like like had the fluish Wait before COVID, you could be sick on set. She was sick, like almost falling asleep in between takes, you know, like they give her some tea and she'd cuttle up and like take a little nap and um. But being the trooper that she is, she stayed. And now it's my coverage. Men, we've already shot her. She's done, so

she could have gone home. They we could easily have a stand in read the lines for me and a lot of people would just go home at that point. She stayed and it's my coverage. And then she starts acting, and I'm like, holy shit, that it's not only different than what you did, but unique and specific to for me, that you're doing this and I'm the only person that gets to watch this right now. And I was like

Elizabeth Moss, same thing. There's a scene when I tell her I've decided that I'm I'm I'm going to California, and she's, you know, she says, you're she glad you get to make those decisions and uh and my coverage. Man, she she comes, she leaned into me and I was like literally, I was like, holy balls, that is amazing. That's so good. And I'm the only person that ever gets to see that that was for me. And then it's just a gift. It's what you know, it's what

a scene partner is supposed to be. And but you don't always get that, you know, so when when you do, it's it's special and exciting. Yeah. I, Um, that's awesome to hear. That's so you can't I can't tell you how happy I am to hear that about her. I have not worked with her. Um you get mistaken for Spader? Yeah, yeah, not not as much anymore. Um, there used to be. There's Antonio's Pizza and the like I'm vent sure Boulevard

and Sherman Oaks. I don't know if it's still there for the long For a long time, it was my head shot that I signed James Spader. We put it up when I first got to l A as this woman on a red carpet. I don't know how I was on this red carpet. I didn't had no business being there. It was for Volcano with Pierce Brazen and it was terrible. You know you'll never see it. Um. So we're I'm walking, I don't know how I'm on the red carpet. This woman James, James, James. I'm telling, like, James,

fucking answer her already. And I turned around, like what She's like James pointing at me. I'm like, come here, come here. I walk over and I go, who do you think I am? She goes, You're James Spader and I go, I'm really not choose, just sign it, and I went all right, I signed James Spader and walked up. I was like sure. I was okay, I'm not gonna argue with you anymore. I know who I am. Um. But it was what was that? What was the what was his show with William Shatner? Of course, Boston Legal? No,

Boston Legal, Yeah, Boston Legal. I had an audition. This is before I was a golfer. I had an audition to go play Julie Bowen's ex husband, like a two episode thing, to be her ex husband who was a professional golfer. And it was a nothing, It was a nothing part. It was like, I knew it wasn't gonna go anywhere. There was a guest spot that I was like, and I I James. We still looked enough alike that I was like, this is my moment. This is my Danny de Vito walking in. Who the funk wrote this moment?

You know? You know that story? Um, this is my moment, So I'm gonna walk. I walked. I drove. This is David Kelly Studios down in Manhattan Beach right, drive all the way down there, parked my car. I go in for the audition. Haven't even looked at the size. I haven't even looked. I'm not I'm not there to audition. And I walked. I wait my turn, And I walked into the casting and producer's room and they're casting, the producers theyre I'm like, hey, They're like, are you ready?

I like, nope, that this is parts not for me, But I'm here to tell you that I should be Spader's brother. I've signed his autograph. We look alike. I could be I could be some kind of drug addict or whatever I come to steal from him, But like, you should write a part for me where I am Spader's brother, and I'm expecting them to go, oh my god, yes, look at you. You just like him. Of course you're

a young Spader. Silence, just dead silence, and they and then then then there's like I feel I feel the anger. They're like, are you fucking kidding me? And they look at me and they're like, so are you going to read? And I'm like no, I'm good. They thank you, and I was like, Okay, thanks a lot, guys, see it. I walk out and I was like, I never I never got an audition for those again, I never. I never got I never had an audition down there for

like the next five years. They're like, I got a little little asterix next to my name and I was not called back. You should have called me. I would have. I would have put you in the office as Robert California's brother. Oh my god, how did I not? I should have been Robert California's brother. I think you would have at least gotten a laugh out of our crew. I don't know if if it would have happened. Was

Alison Jones still casting? Yes, al with Alison Jones, Yes, she would have got I would have got a laugh out with Alison because he at least she knows me. Yes, Um, so much, great work, love Victor, Madam Secretary. You worked with on Madam Secretary. I have to bring this up because we started with this. Guys that I worked with, I've totally lost touch. This is one of those things where he definitively will not remember me, but every time I see him, I get that same warm and fuzzy

feeling in circa nineteen. There we're starting with a nineteen. It's early seven or some of you haven't been born yet. I had had a friend and who got a play at the New York Stage and Film Festival, and they have sort of a company of actors and I think that they're like a pick to come and do this play. Reading was Jelko Vane and I remember watching him for those I don't know, two weeks of working on this,

and I was like, oh, this guy is incredible. So he's another one that whenever I see him on anything, including Damages, which I watched which he won an Emmy for, he was great. He was great on Damages, so good on Damages. You enjoyed working with him? Oh, Jelko, Oh my god, he's another one. He's another one. Of those people. They're like, are you kidding me? He's small, he's not a big man. Then he's short, but he has a presence that is haunting when he wants when he needs

to be, and terrifying when he needs to be. Has hit his moment with this girl and the one scene in the oval office and he puts his hand up to her face in the scene like he's gonna rip her face off, and he got he I was watching was it was a masterclass and how to be big when you're not big, Like he had his arms up and he does this thing with this girl and she was towering over him. And this girl, the actual the person the actors melted. She was like terrified of this man.

He's and he's and he and on top of that, the best part is he is the kindest, most unassuming, humble, sweet how's your family? How are you doing? You know, just like he and Tea I could. I would have done that show for for as long as they would have had me. I would have I would have gladly done four or five more years about just they so lovely. Eric Stoltz was when the directing producers is a great

as well. Um, just like another family atmosphere where everybody comes to work, to work hard, and it's gonna have fun. And here we're gonna do our best version of this and we're gonna go home Gore families, you know. Um, but she'll come. Man, he's a he's a stud. What a great dude. Another one, another one. I could just watch him in scenes likely ship. That's so cool. Um. I mean, your career is just it's amazing. I mean it truly is a dream. The variety of roles that

you've been able to play. Literally, I do not have time. I'm way too busy a person to talk about every show that you've ever been in. You have to go work on your chipping. I've got to go. Yeah, I've gotta go work on my golf. Um. And not only an amazing career, but also speaking of chipping a great humanitarian. One of these years, I'm going to do it. You have my pledge here. It's recorded for posterity. The rom Celebrity Golf Tournament. You give so much to St. Jude's.

Talk to me about that, your passion for St. Jude's, how that came about, and your commitment through your golf tournament to them. My first ever job I told you earlier was that Everything's Relative show. That was a with Thomas production with Thomas as in Danny Thomas's son, Tony Thomas is the Thomas and with Thomas, and we pretty much shut with Thomas down. They did Soap, they did Golden Girls, and I shut the doors on them as well. I've shut the doors on a Minia show. I shut

the doors on that hole person. That whole building went down. Man, we shut it down. Um, so I have that claim to fame. So I felt like I owe the Thomas family something by shutting those doors. So that was my first connection with St. Jude. And then you know, I I met Patrick and Patrick started his tournament now twelve years ago. Patrick Warburton started his tournament twelve years ago, I believe now. And Clark Rainy, who runs Patrick's tournament.

Clark called me about five years ago and said, hey, we want to do an East Coast version of this and we want you to be the namesake. And I said, well, okay, and my wife was on the phone. We were going somewhere where I put my works on speaker with me, and I said, so clearly you've gotten to the rs in your Rollodex, and no one else was stupid enough to say, yes, are you kidding me? Like you want me to go to Florida where I don't have any family or no anyone where I'm at to have people

fly across country. I knew that we could do it, and I was excited to try. And I once you go to that hospital, um, you will, you will do anything you can to support to support it. It's a It's a special place for many many reasons. Uh, the least of which is that they're trying to keep kids from dying of cancer. That is the least of which it is amazing. They share all their research, everything's free.

It's also interesting that in the nineteen fifties Danny Thomas decided to do it in Memphis, Tennessee and took everyone regardless of color, creed, or religion, which is a big deal at the time. Uh So, there's there's a lot of reasons that played that places. It's and it's it's hopeful. I don't like hospitals. My mom was a nurse. There was a lot of death in my family, so I don't like being around hospitals in general. And um, this

place feels different. It just it feels people were walking around there with smiles in their faces, and there's there's hope. There's hope there. And so I would do anything I could to help and so and I'm proud my name's on it. It's awesome. Thank you for your generosity and your work. I want you to know, you know, we don't see each other very often, but it is always so so my pleasure. Thank you so much for joining

me and before I feel the same way, Brian. I feel the same way, man, And like I think the last time we r indo each other was at the at the BMW like four or five years ago. And every time I see you on those tournaments on TV play and I get so excited. Other people I'm like, how the fund did that guy get an invite at the tournament? Every time I see you, I'm excited you you deserve it. You're a good guy. I'm proud of you. Uh. And I was again one more apology. I was so

wrong about the office. It was really good. It was really really good. You were amazing. Uh, Steve turns out, Correl turns out, Correll, you can it could be an American office. It turns out, no, I didn't know it was wrong. I was wrong. I admitted, I admitted freely. I apologize for the condescension. Um, you and your two houses and your private golf club membership and deserve it. Um. Let me let me just say this. Let me just say this. I am very very glad you were wrong

as well. Thank you, Thank you so much, Kevin. My pleasure, My pleasure, Kevin, Thank you so much. This was such a treat. Congratulations again for all you are doing for St. Jude's. And yes, I will join you on the course next year. I truly mean that. Thanks so much for your time and well your deep diviness and listeners. Make sure to catch us on Thursday this week for a sports edition of Off the Beat. I will also be back at it next Tuesday. One might call it double the Fun,

double the magic, double the me. Basically, I just coined a catchphrase, maybe I'm going to talk to you soon. Off the Beat is hosted an executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive producer Langley. Our producers are Diego Tapia, Liz Hayes, Hannah Harris, and Emily Carr. Our talent producer is Ryan Papa Zachary and our intern is Sammy Katz. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak performed by my great friend Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed by seth O Landscape m