Ken Kwapis - Pt. 2

am your host, Brian Baumgartner. Today I am being joined once again by our spectacular director Ken Kappas for round two of our conversation, and this time we really dive straight into his search for the truth, because that's what it was right the lengths he took to make sure that the show felt real, felt spontaneous, felt improvised, and that we as a cast out like we really were a part of the dunder Mifflin world. I am just

in awe of him. That being said, I do want to get one thing straight, Ken, Well, he expressed some doubts about my abilities in the basketball episode, Season one, episode five. For those of you who don't know, he said that I was so good and made so many shots in a row that it had to have been visual effects. Well, sir, first of all, I'm flattered because that's hilarious, But I hate to break it to you. I am just that good. But enough about me. I

could talk about me all day. But since we're talking about skills, Ken truly has so many of them. We owe so much of the office to his vision and his talent, and we were so lucky to have him on our team. Without further ado, get ready to be swept away into the wonderful, magical world of Ken Kappas Bubble and Squeak. I love it, Bubble and Squeak, Bubble

and Squeaker Cookie every month left over from the nat before. Um, how do you feel I mean, because you fully committed to the documentary concept, how do you feel like that influenced the storytelling? Well? I think there. I mean, there's a couple of things we did in the pilot and and pretty much carried throughout the series. But one of them was is that the ideas that the camera is actually not always in the right place for the scene because as a documentary filmmaker, I'm not sure what the

scene is. So that occasionally if we made a decision, like if if Steve's character makes an entrance from his office, that the camera might be over near the water cooler, the last place you would really put the camera to catch it good, And then Steve would say something which would catch our attention, we'd have to whip pan over to find him, and ideally, by the time we found him, he's finished saying whatever he had to say, so that we end up landing on him for a bit of

dead air. That to me, was one of the key strategies in how we we shot. So the Pilot in particular has these kind of wonderfully long, weird pauses, and part of that is due to the you know, cinema

verite style of shooting. When Greg and I held the production meeting for the pilot, and Greg and I had discussed this in advance, but I sort of announced to the people at the production meeting, which includes all the you know, the heads of the different departments make a pair, camera, sound, etcetera, that things that in any other show would get them

fired are encouraged in this show. So, for instance, if you are a camera operator and you pan past the subject and then have to like sort of backtrack rather you know sloppily, that's acceptable and actually not acceptable, it's good. So I think that all of those things. We've never talked about it, but hopefully what it did for the cast is make everyone feel like they were on all the time, you know, that wasn't my shot, your shot. It wasn't like, you know, nobody knew when they might

be the subject of the scene. Well, and the other thing that you did. You know, traditionally you have marks on the floor that tell the actors where to go, and on the office there were no marks. There were no marks, and they're also in theory. There was no regard for whether you were actually facing the camera at certain times. You know, in a traditional you know, multi camera comedy, everyone is is entered in a very you know,

frontal view. But suddenly in our pilot, we were able to do things like just kind of be you know, long for long stretches on a profile, or not quite see someone well. So, I mean, I do think we Greg and I were very specific about scenes that were more like you know, spy camera scenes. And I'm thinking in the pilot, particularly of there's a wonderful scene towards the end at the reception desk with Jim and Pam

and Roy. I think Pam actually leaves the reception desk and there's just this long, long moment where like Roy and Jim are just leaning and then Jim finally says something really innocuous and royal like bolts out of there. It's a very weird. And so that's a scene where those two characters are not aware that they're being filmed, and we sort of hid behind a buy not a bush,

but like a plant. And you know, I think that that was a good example of, particularly for a character like Jim who's hyper aware of the camera, that we get to catch him without you know, him being aware of it. And I think even at the beginning, as I recall, like Steve would have a look directly at the lens and then a look at me standing next to the camera, and I'm gonna have to like rack

my brain now a little bit. I think the idea is if he looked at the camera, he was sort of it was something he was doing as if playing to the camera. But if he looked at me, it was because he wanted he was worried that the camera caught something that he didn't want to be seen. And again, I'm I'm not sure exactly, but I know what you mean. Yes, well, I want to skip ahead because you just brought this up and kind of talk about probably the most famous

spice shot scene in the series. I told Jenna that nothing could shut down production like a big Jim and Pam moment. Like I was like, if you were scheduled to work that day and you were like, oh, Jim and Pam are gonna kiss. Oh, please shoot me out before because they're gonna talk for a long time. Um, but talk to me a little bit about how that moment.

What was that. My recollection was there was a lot of conversation about that and capturing that spy shot of them finally coming in it and doing that kiss, Well, there was a lot of conversation. I think that John and Jenna had a lot of uh, what's the right word. Well, they were anxious about the scene. You know. I spoke with Jenna about this about a year ago, and I went back and looked at the shooting schedule for that

episode Casino Night, because I misremembered something. I thought that we shot the kiss like at the very end of the schedule, but in fact we didn't. We shot at and I think the second last day of the schedule. The last day was the night work the you know, the exterior scene between Pam and Jim where they basically break up. It's the penultimate scene before he comes back in and kisses her. So it was just interesting to me that for the two actors, they were playing the

outcome before they played the scene. That interesting, and obviously they played both scenes well. But in terms of the camera placement, I definitely remember talking to Greg about, you know, we wanted to a be hidden, and we wanted to find the furthest place to be, and that was that, you know, there's a little glass partition, you know, kind of near where the water cooler is, and we just

hid back there. To me, the most interesting thing about the moment is the fact that if you shoot a kiss, traditionally you want to be able to see two faces. And I've you know, directed a few kisses before, and you and there's always like you usually maybe you'll put people in a kind of fifty fifty orientation to the camera, or you have separate shots. But this show, of course,

that's not what we do. And I think I don't remember if it was Greg's suggestion or if it if the actors came up with it or that, or maybe they just happened. But we don't see Jenna's reaction to the kiss. We see John and they kiss and they break and I think they look at each other for a beat, and that's the end of the scene. But I think one of the things I've often thought about with that shot is as an audience, you get the pleasure of being Pam. You're being looked at by Jim.

You you don't see her reactions, so you get to as an audience kind of right it yourself. And I think that shot and it's you know, very it's very simple, but I think that's to me, the thing that's most noteworthy about it is is is that the the person who's surprised by the kiss, you don't see their face. That's very interesting. It occurs to me too. And this is probably more greg I'll just side and note that.

But you know, the idea that because you guys were so concerned about the reality and having it beat in a real place, happening at a real time, there was an insist that around the time the episode aired was when this was happening. So if there weren't any episodes airing over the summer, then the documentary crew was on

vacation and we didn't see that. And there was something so compelling in the storytelling going from that kiss where in Friends, right Ross and Rachel kiss, and then when they come back, it's the moment immediately after they kiss, whereas this when we come back again, Jim's gone, and so it's about finding out everything gradually over time, what happened and why he left and the fallout from the kiss.

I just, you know what, it's great. I've never and yes, I mean, I think that's kudos to Greg and writing staff because what's nice about that is information is not served up to you. You have to kind of, you know, discover what's going on, work for it, to have to work for it, and I think it makes you a more attentive viewer, and I think it's more gratifying as an audience member. You're kind of throwing into the deep bend. Wait, what's going on? Why is Jim? What? What desk is this?

Where is he? You know, Stanford what? You know? Like it's like you get to kind of you get to kind of uh, you know, do a little detective work as you're watching the episode. You know, one thing about that is it mimics what does happen in our lives. We work with people and then they go away, you know,

they leave, they get another job, they get married. So I feel like I mean, I think I've never talked to Greg about it, but I think he was constantly trying to make sure that you know, there was, you know, a sense of the unexpected. How do you feel like

the directing the show changed as the show continued. Well, I mean I didn't work on every season, and I took a long break and and I will say that whatever season I was working in, I guess I felt like I just naturally circled back to those impulses that we had during the pilot. Not because I was trying to like, you know, make a point like let's remember

what we did. It was more like that's all I knew what to do, so that even though occasionally I would watch an episode and you know, maybe it was covered in a slightly more conventional way than I might have. I think my instinct when I, you know, when I did direct, was to try and um, just kind of respect them the original impulses and and again respect you know, Greg's original ideas to making things a little dirtier a

little bit. Yeah. And by the way, it's it's easy to forget those things you go away, you work on a different show or a different film that has a whole other style and then you have come back and unlearned some things. But I feel like, yeah, I mean,

I definitely remember. I mean along the way like shooting the hundredth episode Company Picnic, and there was a lot of it was actually a complicated episode for a lot of reasons, including I would just say to all writers, the writer producers don't write complicated dialogue scenes while people are playing volleyball. If there's one thing I learned doing

this show that no volleyball while talking. But I remember just feeling like I had to kind of again unlearned things I was doing on different films and shows and kind of go back to kind of the show's roots. So I hope that that was a good thing for everyone to you know that, But you know, but that's that was just my natural instinct was to kind of circle back to the beginning. Absolutely. Did you ever have conversations with other directors who are about to work on

who maybe hadn't been on the show yet. Do you remember talking to anybody or get offering any advice on that or well, Greg and I did when he you know, reag and I definitely did. The first episode Greg directed is one of the very best ones. You know. Basketball, Yeah, it's fantastic. But by the way, Brian, Okay, So I when I first saw the cut of Basketball, I assumed that was a visual effect. No, that wasn't you're doing because how there's like six in a row. I think

there's thirteen on the TV there is. There were no ten in a row. And literally when I saw it, I go how how? I literally my mind went to how did they get the money for that effect? They hired me? Really chiefly? Um, yeah, no, that was met. Um. You know before when you were talking also about about having to re remember things, you know, Kevin started to look into the lens quite a bit as the series extended out, um, when he had secrets, when he was

being childish about something. And I remember right when the show ended and starting to work on other shows and going, oh god, I can't look in the lens. What am I doing looking at the lens? You're not allowed to do that any any other show. Come on, get it together? Um, so yes, I know what you mean. I definitely remember a feeling, Um, what's the right way to put it? Like, you know, like the Prodigal Son or something that I've been away and come back and would I be accepted.

Oh my gosh, it was truly. I always remember. I always remember how happy everyone was when you came back. I'm glad the but you know, I I it's funny. I was thinking about something I did in the in the early episodes. I don't know if other directors did it. I think it ended, but that was the idea that during our you know, talking head interviews, that I used to sit next to the camera. Yes, and I think that that was not something that other directors did as much,

or maybe not at all. I never talked to anyone about it, but I remember like coming back after a few seasons, and definitely at the towards at the end to that, Like you know, Jenna thought it was strange suddenly that I was there sitting at the camera again because it had been a while since that had done well.

It's it's funny. I was always I was of two minds because you're such an open person and you and I believe that the energy that you you give out, you're creating an environment and you're wanting as the interviewer to just be present for the actor who's talking. So for me, if there was someone there who was you know, I'm picking up you know, very concerned, learned about the words, were thinking about something else and looking down that wasn't

helpful to have that. It was way easier for me to look at a mark than to look at somebody who was doing something that wasn't helpful to me. I know. There were also occasions, especially with some of our writer directors, um that could not stop laughing, So it was way better get them in the corner or in the other room,

um to be right there. I do remember the beginning of the series that one of the things, and I'm not a writer, well I don't fancy myself a writer, but I remember hoping that we could actually have a conversation that would lead into the scripted talking headline. And that was something you know, we did on occasion. And again I make no claim of being able to improv, but it was like, what could I set up that

would kind of lead to the line? Yes, and that that you know, but I do think after a while that wasn't necessary, but it was a fun thing to do at the top of the series. Absolutely. I do remember, by the way, when you were talking about being trapped at work and now I remember something Greg and I discussed,

and that was where those interviews would be shot. So they're generally two places, and one angle, of course is each actor sits with the glass facing the bullpen behind them, and the other places with your back to the wall the opposite wall. And I remember Greg very specifically saying he loved the idea that that frame would have a little sliver of the window in it, but just a little bit, because there's no reason to see that you

could get out. And those are and and I remember that see all a lot of where John's John shots are well, I think and I had totally forgotten about this, that John's was toward the outside because he dreamt of getting out. Absolutely, that was absolutely part of that was the subtext of I mean, it wasn't his subtext, but that was Greg's idea that you know, I love that that there was enough, there was something that objectively told

the story of his hopes and his dreams. You know, whereas Kevin, most of the characters was shot so you could only see the bullpen the office because that's where they were going to be forever. Yes, I remember that that's actually and yet that angle on John only featured a little bit of that window exactly. How was shooting outside of the bullpen? I mean, we have these physical barriers that exist within the office. How was moving outside as as we started to, you know, especially after the

first two seasons and going more to locations. Did that create more issues to keep the style and the look of the show the same? Or let me I'll just speak about one episode, and that's Booze Cruise because obviously we sure we shot on a real boat. Where were we and Cavi Long Beach. And one of the things I loved is and I didn't choose the boat, Gregg chose the boat, But the boat for me was like very claustrophobic. I felt like we were it was like

just dunder Mifflin floating in the water. I mean, I felt like everything about that space was very tight constricted. It was hard to shoot in it. Kind of again, it sort of recreated the conditions of the workplace on the water. So in a funny way, I like the fact that, you know, sometimes we'd go on location and we'd basically be in the same kind of place. Yes, we're on vacation for a fun night out, and we're just actually in the office again, um well, booze cruise.

The seven seconds of silence that happened between Jim and Pam. Was that an organic moment that happened. Did you have to fight for that time of silence or I don't know, Just talk me through that a little bit, like the shooting of it and or the decision to allow it

to stay in. I mean, the length of the silence was not something we planned obviously to the second, but I think you know, John and Jenna both knew that, you know, there were no rules about pace, and so it was not objectionable to, you know, let the moment linger. I don't remember when we shot it feeling like, oh my god, this is it. We've broken the record for longest moment around, of course, but I do remember mostly that it was that it felt very truthful. It could

have been half that length, It didn't really matter. It was, you know, it just felt very truthful, and I turned in my cut and it probably worked with Greg on the cut, but it was Greg who ultimately, you know, fought to keep it in at that length. I only hope that by that point in the in the series, it wasn't that big a fight because it was clear what we were doing, and what we were doing was

compelling for me. It's that classic thing of you know, if you're involved, it doesn't you don't feel that the time passing, you know, you're just you're involved, you know. And and and for those two actors, again, they were just so invested in that moment. I don't think they had a clue that they were, you know, stretching the limits of what's acceptable on a broadcast our television. Right.

Maybe they were, maybe they were so Greg approached you about coming back for the finale, or he asked you, or how did that come about? He asked me to come back for the finale. It had been two or three seasons since I worked on the show. But I think Greg wanted to create a sense of coming full

circle and returning to the show's origins. And I also was a little daunted by the fact that and this is a good thing, that so many of the characters, so many of the characters who began the series, you know, in secondary roles. Everybody's role had grown and and and everybody had a complicated story to tell, and uh, how are we going to do that? Well? It took longer than a normal show that's for sure. It's like a feature length finality. How involved were you leading up to

the table read? You know, the table read became a very big deal, as you recall, with a humongous audience in this giant auditorium on some location. I can't even remember where it was. But here's how I I wasn't. Here's what I up and with the table reading is you know, I I was used to reading the scene description, and so I just sort of casually said to Greg, would you like me to read the scene description? And he said absolutely not. I thought, WHOA, Okay, I don't

need to read it. Little did I realize what he was planning. He was planning this sort of table reading extravag answer. Yes, yes, had you read it before? Oh yeah, I definitely because we none of us had, really no, I mean we had the scripts delivered. I mean, if some people did, it was because they had a soft morning, you know. By by later in the seasons, we were not. And it wasn't a product of them keeping it a secret.

They just they were working and we were shooting, and then suddenly it would be table read day and there would be an episode in the in this trailer, well, I would definitely. I read the finale, and I was also part of the discussions about Steve's cameo appearance, right, I guess I don't know if you could call it a cameo appear. It's his return and how we were

planning to keep it a secret. It's still remarkable to me that it was kept a secret, considering the fact that he, you know, his appearance in the finale is at a wedding where they were like, you know a lot of people, yes, So I don't it doesn't make any sense to me that it was kept secret, but it was. I will say that I was pestered by different news people and uh, I honed my you know, fibbing skills quite well. Well, I somehow knew the day before, or a couple of days before, I knew that it

was coming. Why did you feel that was important for him to come back, or did you Well, I mean, aside from the just you know, the kind of excitement getting the whole gang back together again, I mean, I feel like it it's sort of speaks a lot to Michael's care act that he would show up for the wedding. Just emotionally, it felt like where Michael was. I mean that Michael's evolution over the course of the series, it made perfect sense that he wasn't going to miss that absolutely.

Why do you think that The Office has not just maintained, but why is the show more popular now than it was even when it aired. What is it about the show that you think you know that so many people respond to? Yeah, I wonder if all there were Let me think about that. I have ag that's a good question. Oh,

I have an answer. I feel like the continuing popularity of the show has a lot to do with the fact that most of us do work in really dreary jobs and feel trapped in the workplace, and I feel like, in a funny way, the show really honors that experience. And UH speak very personally. My you know, I have a brother who is younger than me, who works at a store in our hometown, and when you go in, you know, behind the counter of the store are all

the Office bobble heads, all of them. And I think, in a weird way, it's less about the fact that I worked on the show and more about the fact that working people connect with these characters. Let me ask you this, do you think The Office contributed to or the culture sort of at the time, and reality television started to become larger, and here we were doing a scripted television show to have it attempt to be done really, I mean, Randall Einhorn and Matt Stone where reality TV

camera people. I don't know. I just there's something interesting there to me about that. Reality TV started happening, you know, unmasked at that time, and here we were a rifted comedy show attempting to do the same thing. I don't know. I will say that a lot of people you know that I talked to about the show assumed that it was improvised, and are they're surprised when I say it

was actually very carefully scripted. Obviously scripted to sound, you know, off the cuff at times, but it wasn't a show like imagine Curb your Enthusiasm. Is that I've never worked on it, but I imagine it's mostly improvised or Christopher guests films, which were remarkable, But the office was the opposite. It was very and I hate the word formatted, so I won't use it, but it was a very well crafted. Each week was a well crafted script. So I feel

like in a way. It probably fooled people, and it may have created a you know, it may have said an example that other people followed in the wrong ways. Farthing, because it was actually very much about you know, there's so much good writing craft going on, and I think the fact that people were fooled into thinking it was spontaneous or improvised as a tribute to how well written it was written and directed. Yes, absolutely, Um, what are you most proud of about your contribution to the show

or the show itself? I'm very proud of the fact that there were a lot of naysayers at the beginning. There are a lot of people who said this will fail, and that it didn't fail. Actually it it succeeded, But it succeeded on its own terms. And that's what I'm proud of. That's so great. Put on your headphones for

one second. Hey, will you play that clip? I thought it was weird when you picked us to make a documentary, but all in all, I think an ordinary paper company like Dundermith Flynn was a great subject for a documentary. There's a lot of beauty and ordinary things. Isn't that kind of the point? Oh? Yeah, that is the point. That's why it's continued to be popular. Okay, so well, I mean that. I mean, to me, what that says is that's what Greg thought. The point was, what do

you think you think beauty and the ordinary? Yeah, I mean I also feel like they they you know, just as a director, it was such a pleasure and a privilege to kind of do something that didn't go down the middle of the road, and I think audiences respect that, and I love that about the show. I actually do remember a different ending to the finale as I recall.

The original ending was, you know, the night before, or rather the night of the story, the story that all the characters decide they need to take the plant planty plant that's in the bullpen, that's been in the bullpen for nine seasons, like sad looking plant and everybody, somebody,

maybe I don't know, is a Kevin. Somebody makes a suggestion that Planting needs to be liberated, Planting needs to escape, and so everyone marches out of the office with a two or three of the characters carrying Planty and everyone's chanting Planty, Planty. The entire ensemble then goes outside of the building in the parking lot in front of the under Mifflin's building and they plant planty And the original ending, as Greg and I discussed, was that, you know, everyone

kind of wanders away. Everyone's been drinking, and everyone's you know, feeling a little sad, but in festive, and we hold on this empty parking lot with the plant newly planted, the one that was under Mifflin is now outside. And as I recall, Greg's original plan was that there'd be a dissolved through to the next morning, and you just see the empty parking lot at dawn with this plant

in its new home. Fascinating. I totally forgot that. Yeah, that's great, and um, I'm not surprised that Greg decided to end with Pam's drawing. I mean, it's fantastic, it's wonderful, and and yes, Pam's final speech about finding the beauty in the ordinary is certainly it could not be a better summation statement. But going back to the offbeatness of the show, I must say I loved the idea of a show that ended with a shot of an empty

parking lot and a plant plant. It's amazing. That's amazing. Well, we you know, I talked to Jenna some about it, and you know I was saying to her, or like if the Office was a was a being a person, or that Pam was clearly the heart of the show. Obviously, she's you know, has the love interest with Jim. Dwight describes her as his best friend um in the end, and you know she's the one that has the last moment with Michael when he's leaving, and it's interesting that

it it goes back to her. I do think she was the emotional heart of the show. Well, you know, I mean, I guess the only thing I would add to that is the show is a comedy, but within it is a romantic story. And the romantic story is not played for laughs. The romantic story is grounded and real and in a very you know, old fashioned sense. This is a show with clowns and lovers, yes, and a different show is different, you know, a wonderful show

like Friend. The romantic storylines are funny, yes, But in the Office, Pam and Jim, we don't love them because of the laughs. We love them because of how you know, rounded and real that relationship is well and we couldn't because both Jenna and John aren't funny, so we wouldn't be able we wouldn't be able to. Thank God, I wasn't written that. I didn't say that because, um, I just so appreciate you being Oh. I mean, I am

so honored that you gave us any time. And I just want you to know, just watching things through again and just you as a person, I love you, and I just I want you to know how much I respect you and give you full credit for the world that was created on the office with Greg. I love you too, and I miss you, my girls. It's been so I'm just so excited that you're doing this too. And it was also it's so comfortable to talk to you about this good I felt like, like, let's just

talk about let's just talk about exactly. Um, thanks so much. Oh my gosh, well you heard it here, folks. Instead of talking about the beauty of ordinary things, I could have been talking about the beauty of planting this whole time. And you know what, maybe that's not such a bad idea. Ken, thank you so much for taking the time to come talk to me. I so appreciate it. And to all of my listeners you know this, I appreciate you as well.

Make sure to tune in next week or another behind the scenes look at the show in a brand new interview with editor Extraordinarior Dave Rogers. Oh, and don't forget you can order our very new and very exciting book, Welcome to dunder Mifflin, The Ultimate Oral History of the Office, on Amazon right now. Trust me, you are not going to want to miss it. But in the meantime, I just need you to do one thing, have a fan

freaky tastic week. The Office. Deep Dive is hosted and executive produced by me Brian baum Gartner, alongside our executive producer Lang Lee. Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer. Our producers for this episode are Liz Hayes and Diego Tapia. My main man in the booth is Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by my great friend Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed by seth Olandskip