Katie Lowes & Guillermo Díaz

like half an hour. I've talked about this on other shows, but I was like, Katie, smack me for real, like do it for real, for real? And then I was like, what did you say, Debbie? Like I couldn't hear. Hi. My name is Katie Lows and I really liked this podcast. Hi guys, my name is Giermo Diaz and I just watched a rat run across my backyard twice. Well, hello everyone,

and welcome back here to Off the Beat. I am your host, Brian Baumgartner, and today is a very special day because today we have not one, but two exciting guests. That's right, it's a threesome Katie Lowe's and Guillermo Diaz. Now. I met Katie and Guermo for the first time today, but they met a decade ago on the set of Scandal, one of the most popular shows well, certainly in the last decade, and for good reason. It has politics, it has drama, but most of all, it has Katie and Guermo.

Now they're actually starting their own Scandal podcast called Unpacking the Toolbox. I've heard the trailer and it is fantastic. Lots of scandal, but that's expected. They're here today to talk about their early days as actors struggling in New York, their time on Scandal, what it means to be a part of the Shondaland universe, and both of their most recent shows, Law and Order Organized Crime for Guillermo and the most talked about show of the last year, Inventing

Anna for Katie. They're delightful together. I didn't even need to be here, but guess what I was. So here they are Katie Lowe's and Guillermo Diaz. Bubbalue, I love it, Bubble Bubble and squee Cook get every more from the nut. Hi, guys, how are you good? How are you. I'm good. I mean, you know I'm lurking in the background, so I hear. I mean, we should keep the conversation going. Arm You're

going to Vegas this weekend. That's fantastic. I am No, You're not like a Vegas dude to me, but like maybe, And I'm always learning new things from this friendship. Yeah. I love Vegas. I really love it. I mean I can't go for more than like two days, you know what I mean. But I'm excited. We're gonna see the Michael Jackson show out there. Oh it's so good. I saw it. I did. Oh nice. Yeah, I'm super excited about that. Saw it. And you know what's so funny?

Did you guys watch the Chris Rock special? Yes? I haven't seen it, but I've heard about it. Yes. It got me thinking because he was saying how like people are selectively outraged out or outrage and He's like, why are we allowed to watch Michael listen to Michael Jackson but we're not allowed to listen to R Kelly? Do

you know what I mean? Like, anyway, whatever you feel about that, I'm not trying to be provocative right now, but I'm like, I'm trying to ask You're trying to be provocative, but ask that question in myself because I've seen the Michael Jackson Show and I love Michael Jackson music, and then I and I know what he's done, and then I would never see a musical about R Kelly. No. So I just, yeah, I don't know what's happening in

my brain. Yeah, it's crazy that he presented that. And then it makes you, it really makes you think, yeah, yeah, and like everybody's different what they feel, because I have friends who are like, we'll walk off a dancelor of Michael Jackson comes on really one hundred percent, like they are like, absolutely not. I don't endorse support any of this music. This person was incredibly sick and and just broke laws and hurt people and children, and so I'm

out and I'm like, fuck, I'm a bad person. I'm just like doing the moonwalk like my best impression in the I mean, Gammo, this sounds like kind of an indictment of you. How are you feeling right now about to go to Vegas and watch the show. Oh my god, that's right? What the fuck? Man? Well, I've seen it and was just saying I was endorsing it because I loved it amazing. Um, you guys, I mean I have to start with what is secretly wrong with Bellamy Young.

I just had the opportunity to work with her. She seems way too kind a person. There must be something work with her on. We're working on a new show, The Other Black Girl for Hulu. Yes, I find her way too delightful, So there must be something wrong with her, there is it? There is your hate a vegan unless you hate vegans or you hate animal lovers. Those would be the only things to check. She loves animals and she doesn't eat them. Okay. Other than that, she's pretty

gloriously perfect. Yeah, but you're you're feeling, you're thinking is correct because when I first met her, I thought the same too. I was like, this is a way too like is this real? And then you come to find out years later that she's that exact same person every single day with you, and she's just she has the biggest heart and the most loving kind person. I know she really is, but she is. She's pretty fantastic. She's pretty fantastic. She's exceptional. Also, it's like disarming, like I

don't know where you're from. Originally Brian, but I don't know, like a lot of like Southern bells, like say she's belly but okay, so she's like I was like, the what the hell is this? Like I'm from New York. I've never met women that are like that, Like like she's very Oh god, Josh Milenet used to drive him so crazy on Scandal because she's a big hugger and kiss her and very warm. But she also she's just

the person on our WhatsApp like Scandal change. She knows everybody's birthday, everybody's anniversary, and it is like so conscious about that. It's like pretty remarkable. Is that a Southern thing you're from there, Brian? Is that a Southern woman thing? Um? I mean my mom does that, so I guess yes, yeah. I mean it's blue Mountain cards generally, blue Mountain messages. Generally it's those from my aunt Maureen. What are those? That's a blue Mountain message? I don't know what that is.

It's a it's basically I mean, it's still a kind gesture, which I guess. I guess it's more effort than just a text, if that's what Bellamy does. But it is a virtual card that you open usually has some sort of dancing flower flower yes, and it says like wishing you a great day. It's like an e card. But the company is called Blue Mountain, and I that is classic in my family as well. Yes, all right, I want to go back to your childhood. I want to go back to your time growing up, both of you,

each of you. When did you start becoming interested in the arts? Are acting? Gee, Guillermo? For me, it happened when I was in high school. I was a sophomore in high school and I did a talent show where we did a medley of songs by the Beastie Boys and I played Mike d And it was the first time I was on stage, and I just fell in love with performing, and I thought, this is what I want to do. And then from that point on, I just really really focused on pursuing it. I bought Backstage.

There used to be a newspaper called Backstage, and you know, you circle the auditions and open calls and all that stuff. I did a ton of extra work and background work and do it in films, and I just I really just wanted to act, and I pounded the pavement and I just I you know, and I just kept going. So that's that's how it started for me. But let me ask you this, so you can You're on a talent show stage as the Beastie Boys, Like, what was

the impetus behind wanting to do that? Or? Right? You just kind of conned by your friends into doing this somewhat. I didn't even I didn't even want to be in the Talent show. But one of the guys dropped out that was playing Mike d and my friends were like, Garamo, you please just do this for us, do as this solid And I was like, all right, And that's sort of how it happened. So I wasn't even looking for it. I wasn't even thinking about, you know, wanting to do

the Talent show. It just sort of fell in my lap. And then it was it was a you know, really exciting surprise that I that I loved it so much? Did you kill? It? Was the audience, like in the pod, I have it, I have it, it's recorded, like I have it, I have it on tape. Yeah it's on a VHS. Yeah, well but you haven't changed it over yet. Yeah, you got to change it over. You haven't to an electronic file. Let me tell you something, Gearmo, Oh my god,

you can't. This is not going to survive. If you've moved from it might be messed up to New York compartment. This is gonna get you know, damaged in some way. I know, I know, I really, I'm going to transfer it over. There's there's a photo on my Instagram of us three dressed like the Beastie Boys from that night. If you scroll through on my Instagram, there's a photo

your life and then and then years later. Fun fact, years later, I did a movie called Half Baked and Tamer Davis directed it, and she I couldn't believe that she was married to Mike d And I got to tell this story to Mike d into, Tama Davis and too, Dave Chappelle, and that's amazing. Yeah, you have said in the past that hiding the fact that you were gay growing up gave you a crash course in acting. Can you can you talk to me a little bit about that or why you feel that way it did? Man?

You know, when you're when you're growing up in in in New York City and Washington Heights in the eighties, you know, we I did a lot of lying a lot of lying, a lot of hiding, a lot of you know, just suppressing all all things gay that I knew I was, and and it really does it makes you It made me a really good actor because I, you know, I just sort of, you know, rolled along throughout my world acting like I wasn't gay, and it

just sort of helped my acting. And it's sort of a messed up thing to think about, you know what I mean, because I was I was hurting inside in the fact that I was hiding and lying to my parents, to friends like that was all really sad to me, but it was it was a performance I had to keep keep doing and keep up if I wanted to sort of you know, survive for lack of a better word,

and you know where I grew up, you know. I also think it sort of relates so much to like Gammo's had the most incredible run of playing so many different types of parts. But you've played a lot of like super tough, fucked up, like jail con you know, drug dealers, all this stuff, And I feel like it's so authentic because it's probably taps into you covering growing up in like a tougher neighborhood, and you know, pretending

to be like a really tough kind of exterior person. Absolutely. Yeah, And you've played gay characters in your in your career also. But but I just think you're you're really good with a gun. You've done so much gun work. You've done so much, so much work. Can somebody pull that for the tape? Can somebody pull that for the tape? You've done a lot of gun gun work. Yeah, that's that's yeah. Um. But you've also every time you're in like a jail suit, like,

haven't you been? Because I've been convent a few times and you're like, this is my fifties. Yeah a million times. Yes, I've done law and order like five six times, and you know, five out of the six I've been a convict in a in an orange jumpsuit. We neither murdered someone or raped someone or yeah me pedophile, Brian. Our right is our rite of passage is doing law and order if you're especially in New York, right, that is a rite of path. Yeah, it really is. Uh, Katie,

what about you? When did you start thinking this was your path? Oh? My god, damn it. I got the bug like very early. I just always was one of those you could probably tell annoying little girls who was just looking for attention and applause, and my parents probably messed up the other direction, telling me that I was

special too often. But in all honest you, my mom like always danced as her like workout, like I grew up in Queens and my mom was a mover, like she just she's a yoga teacher now, but she just was always a mover. So we were always in like mommy daughter dance class on Thursdays at like five, and I just remember being in little like recitals when I was three, four, five, six, seven, And you know, then in fourth grade, I got Dorothy and the Wizard of Oz.

Like it just was never I never questioned. When I was twelve. I grew up right outside the city and I remember screaming, crying, begging my dad for an agent. He was like ab so that, like he was like absolutely not. If you want to do the school plays and you know, community theater and you want to go to dance class, I will support that wholeheartedly. And even if you decide to major in it and go to school for it, I will also support that, which at

the time I didn't realize what a gift. That was until I ended up going to school and realized how many kids. Parents were like, there's no way. But by the way, now that I have kids, I'm like they weren't wrong, but anyway, But but my dad was like, there's no way you're doing anything professional until you decide as an adult that that's the path you want to follow.

But like, you're going to be a regular kid. And so I did every little role from chorus to this that, and then when I started doing it professionally, I was like, oh my god, this sucks. This is so hard. Like I didn't realize like I had always been such the goody two shoe people. Please are like the best in my class. Get the monologue, this, that and the other thing. And then it was like record scratch stop. At like twenty one, it was like, you're never working. You're going

to be a waitress for a decade. You are going to fucking fight for this tooth and nail, and you will work harder than you've ever worked for this dream that a lot of other people have. And it took ten years before and also probably fifteen auditions in front of Seanna Rhymes. Although she'll say to you I Katie just came in. No, no, no, that was like my I had been on private Practice, I had been on Grays, I had done all of it. I had tested for

her previous shows. But Scandal was really the thing where I was like, Oh, I can stop my side hustle. I don't have to nanny, I don't have to be a personal assistant. I don't have to be a fucking

caterer all of these things right. Meanwhile, my parents were just always very supportive but felt, I think, really nervous, Like I remember being twenty eight and like fighting for health insurance and you know, driving my rent a wreck around in Los Angeles looking at my Thomas guide of how to get to my third rejection of the day, and my parents were like, I don't know how long

this is going to go. And to be honest, I don't know if I got I respect so many I have wonderfully talented friends in their forties and fifties who are still fighting that fight, and I don't know if I would have had it in me. I don't know. I'd like to think so like I'm an artist and an actor through and through, but man, that sucked. Yeah, it's tough. It's really tough. But in terms of your path,

you decided to go to TISH. I assume that's what you're referring to and your parents supporting you, Yeah, through Tish. Don't believe that were you process based at that point or were you or was it about the business? I was not about the business at all. I was the weird experimental theater wing like rolling around on the floor working with like thinking I was making the greatest art that's ever been created in the Tri State area. Like everybody got body lice. It was awesome. Like we were

writing our names and permanent markers, holding umbrellas naked. It was so crazy. Tish was so expensive and the best thing they ever gave. They would be like, here's fifty bucks, Like go make a play, Like you're lucky that we gave you a little black box theater with forty seats, and god did we make the most of it. I thought.

But my parents, who always loved that I did musicals, they came to one of my first Tish plays where I took my top off and someone had to masturbate in the play, and I remember my parents sitting in the front row being like, oh, my god, and it's a great play. It's bay Rout like Mercytoma did it off Broadway, like it's super legit, Like I'm not like it was a fucking it's a great play. But they're like, this is not Hello Dolly, what happened to Guys and

Dolls or Carousel or like Pirates and Pansans? And I was like, um, mom, I am an artist. Now I am a drama nature, this is drama. My boobs are going to be out. Thank god the iPhone didn't exist then, you know, thank god, thank god. I was just naked all the time, all up on that stage, just naked naked. Did you, guys, do you feel like growing up in New York influenced you and your esthetic, your career paths,

your desire to create naked art. I think I think growing up in New York certainly gave me an edge that I, um, you know, at the time. I don't know if I appreciated it as much at the time as I do now. But similar to Katie, I joined

a theater company called Labyrinth. We did the same sort of thing we would, you know, we had a sort of a rundown space on fifty third Street between like tenth and eleventh Avenue, and we would go backstage where there were bags of old masks and costumes and we would dress up and do kabuki makeup and then get on the stage and perform and move however we wanted

to move. And and a lot of those artists are like Daphne Rubin, Vega, David Zaya's, Philip symour Hoffman, John like, it was all Stephen Dlee Gergiz who who is an amazing playwright. And so this was the group of people that I was rolling around just like U Katie on this like you know, old like dusty stage. But it and again we were we were in in New York City in the early nineties doing this. So it was you know, I remember going to the theater and being like, okay,

I hope I don't get mugged. I had to walk really fast and I have to, you know, keep my head down. And it was it was it was a journey to the theater hoping you weren't going to get jumped by someone at at nine point, which happened a lot in New York. But but again that gave I think that gave me a certain and all of us in that group gave us a certain edge which I love so much, and I move through, you know, the

rest of my career even now. I moved around in the world with that inside me, and I love that. When you get out of school and you start auditioning for things, Guillermo for you struggles early on? Did you find it? Um, Yes, you're not my God. Absolutely, it was a you know, I mean, talking about it now, it sounds like it was something that happened very quickly. It took I think it took even longer than ten years.

For me. It was it was constantly pounding the pavement and you know, dealing with rejection and again, like I said earlier, doing I did a ton of extra work. I was doing extra work on student films. That's how fucking films on podcast did we curse? But yeah, that's how That's how like down low I was. But you know, with all that set, I loved it. I still loved it. It was still so much fun and exciting and exhilarating to be in front of the camera whenever I was

or on stage. But yeah, it was a constant, constant, constant struggle. Even I mean, Katie, I think I'll agree with me. Like even now, it's a constant struggle. Now had three huge rejections last week. Oh god, I'm got it. My god, I'm still doing this like yeah, I mean just dragged over the coals for like a while just to get like a big fat no at the end of it all. It's like, oh my god, but you know what I just I think you have to be like I don't know. I don't want to say stupid,

that's not right. But there's some like faith, hope, naivete, whatever it is to think that like this day is going to be different, or this opportunity is going to be different. It's different. Now, Yes, I think you're right, Like there has to be something where it's like I think someone might give me a shot, Like yeah, I also think what we were asking before about the New York edge. I remember moving to LA and being like, is anybody doing anything? Like I remember like New York

you're at like you're early two things. You fight for your place, like like if this is a contest of like how hard you can work, Like I feel like New Yorkers work pretty hard to get what they want, you know. And I remember moving out to Los Angeles and so many people were calling themselves actors, but they

weren't doing anything. Like I was like, Okay, I'm in class, and then I go to waitressing the I'm gonna go to babysitting and then I'm gonna try to meet this person and then maybe this casting director will have lunch with me, and then maybe they'll give me a babysitting job, and then I'm gonna go back to acting class, and then I'm gonna try to keep my body in mental

health and shape. Like I just remember like studying my auditions and things like that, and I started a theater company, and like you know, I was just like hustling, And I feel like that always gave me such an edge because there were so many people out in LA who were just far more laid back and chill. I feel like people in LA were all sort of hyper focused

on like a really great head shot. Yeah, like you know, that sort of superficial type of stuff as opposed to like really like finding work and working on monologues or finding a you know what, theater to do a plan or stuff like that. Yeah. But I think not just in acting or theater, but in the world, in whatever business that you're in, the amount of work outside of doing the thing that you do to prepare you to do the thing that you do is so important and

doesn't get enough credit. You hear the word lucky a lot, or like right place at the right time, or you met the right person or whatever. But I think all of those things are a product of all of that work that you're doing outside of the thing that you're

trying to do. I completely agree. Sometimes I'm like lucky enough to go in and I like talk to a little Like I said, I started a theater company like sixteen years ago, and I go in sometimes to like classrooms of like twenty like younger actors, and I'm like,

what are you you doing though? Like nine to If this is your job, right and you're going to work at least forty hours a week on this, you should more, by the way, Like what does that mean if you don't have someone paying you right now currently to act? Like what are the hours filled with? And to me,

that's also like therapy walking all of that stuff. But I'm like, this is such a mental physical game of like longevity and stability and being able to when opportunity does finally knock to be able to show up with all of the work you've done on yourself and on the an an acting itself, and you're ready to be there. Because I have also seen people sabotage the shit out of those opportunities, like badly because the outside stuff that

you work on was not there. I mean it's wild, yeah, And I think, you know, I always you know, because I did. I did theater for a number of years and really thought that that was my path path. And I say, now, when I moved to Los Angeles, I was still an actor, but I felt like I changed careers because for me, the business work outside, be it networking, be it what's happening in the world of film and television,

is equally, if not more important than all of that stuff. Yep, No, it's a big The business side of it is also huge. I mean, oh my god, Like you said, some of these greatest actors I went to school with didn't have the business head or the business savvy of like how to make a business of yourself and sell yourself. I mean there's also all of that. I mean, it's it's

a lot. You've got to have a very odd combination of like artists and artistry and at the same time this business sense and this business savvy of how to work it that's authentic and feels good to you. I mean, I used to waitress at a restaurant, and bless her when my best friends used to write her fucking website with her reel on every check because we would wait on Ryan Murphy and the creator of Batman, and Cullen

and Justin Timberlake, I mean a freaking everybody. This was the power hour lunch spot, and that never felt authentic to me, Like I just like I could talk and and be like, hey, I just had an audition, you know, like something barely that and I used to come home and feel like shit that I was missing my opportunity. And she totally got a job out of that. She got a nine episode recurring part. I would have I would have gone on that on that website. She's good.

She went to a fucking great actor. Um. She has since now retired from the business, but at the time she was totally hustling. And so that's what I mean to say, Like, you have to figure out how to work the business like in a way that feels good to you. For example, I was a babysitter nanny for two big asking directors who have both are two out of the three only casting directors in Hollywood who repeatedly hire me nobody else really honestly, Like, I've been babysitting

and they've been family for me for fifteen years. Yeah, but they wouldn't continue hiring you if you could if you didn't deliver. Well, I got the job, the whole team, But they're the ones that are the gate caears like they get me in there, but luckily you're really good. Like if you suck, they would have been like, oh damn, we got it. Shouldn't we bring her in again? She's really bad, you know what I mean? Well, that could work the other way too. It's like I don't want

to lose my babysitter. Yes, that's true, so you maybe here's the key. Be really nice and respectful and appear to be artistic and be kind of a shitty babysitting. Right. I look back and I'm like, oh my god, I used to be smoking cigarettes out of the car with like fly it out as soon as I would like pick her up from school and then I would take her to the zoo or whatever. But have like the dude I was dating, like, come meet me at the zoo, so I would be like double tasking, like babysitting and

going on a date. I'm not kidding. This is news to me. I love this story. Oh my god, I was twenty four and such a idiot. Wow. But whatever, And they know it now like I'm not. I mean I hope they do. If not, now they know, please keep hiring me, keep please keep laying me on for you. Thank you for you, Katie. Well, early on, I understand you appeared on a couple of episodes of both The

Guiding Light and As the World Turns. Now, I know that's not ultimately what you wanted to do for your career, but talk to me a little bit about that experience. Was it awful or did that teach you something? Yes? Well, I got this crazy thing is I got really close on both to having like that being my first job out of college, like contract roles, like four year contract roles, And I always look back and being like, oh my god, I was so upset that I didn't get it because

the money would have been great. But I am relieved I didn't get it because I think maybe I would have stayed there forever, like maybe we still would know Katie lows as who the hell knows what their names were, but for fifty years, we're going to play that part anyway. Oh no, it was awful. It was so embarrassing because on both roles I had to oh, no, one, I played a nurse that stole drugs and took them. So

that was exciting. That's a good part. The other one was horrifying because I had to like have one of those scenes where it's like Oopsie, I forgot my bathing suit and like jump into a hot tub that's a pretend lake with ferns around it, and I just remember feeling so like I was in like a nude thong and like the whole crew was around. It wasn't a close set, and it was like I just didn't know at the time what that was, and I was not a comfortable like sexy actor. God, I've been naked. I've

on this podcast. It sounds like all I do, and it is truly not. I had a brief moment in my early twenties where this occurred and it has never really again, so but I remember just feeling like so embarrassed and felt so dumb, like I was like like like just oh god, like my acting was terrible. And but whatever, it's part, it's part of it. It's it's a really just part of the whole thing. God, I wish I had it on VHS. I don't know where. Oh yeah, that would be good. I mean, I know

you only did a few episodes. But the thing that I were you on soaps? No, No, But the thing that I've always thought about it and heard about it is in terms of getting a crash. Course of being on camera soaps to me is up another level because you're literally being handed pages, get one shot and it's done eighty pages a day. They do eighty pages. They don't block anything. Every blocking has either three moves you could do. It's like a docy dough a like stack

shot like anything, because they can't move cameras. But it's different than a multicam. It's not proscene, you know, it's not proscenium staging, so there's only a few moves you could do. And yeah, you get one shot, so you cannot mess up your lines. It's I got those actors and also they have to turn on the emotion and the water works in one second, you can't pull out the tear stick, and there ain't no tear sticks. It's just like you just go and you're just it's really

really a wild place. Germo. You did not start on soabs, but you did a series of episodes on what some consider dark Horse greatest thing that ever existed, The Chappelle Show. Talk to me a little bit about how that happened and what that taught you. Early on, Well, I did a movie, the movie I did with Dave Chappelle, Half Baked. I did that, so Dave was you know, liked my work and doug what I was doing and just brought me. He was like, hey, I'm doing this show, Come do

the show with me. It just felt like a continuation of playing, like we were playing when we did the movie and he started Chappelle's Show, like if I remember correctly, right after the film, and it just felt like we just kept playing. You know, we were like these just big goofballs and doing these like really provocative sketches that Dave and Neil Brennan, who is his co writer, were writing.

You know, in one of the sketches, he the one character uses the N word over and over and over, and over and back in the day, they didn't bleep the N word, and now if you watch the episodes, it's bleeped. But you know, it wasn't It wasn't just

being used frivolously. It was used where there was a you know, there was a lesson and behind all of it, and it was so smart and the writing was so intelligent, and yeah, I just I remember just feeling really really lucky that that Dave gave me that opportunity to work on that show with him. And it's funny because before that, I had done a show called House of Buggin with John Leguizamo, which was a sketch comedy show too, which I don't think a lot of people sort of really

heard about or know about. But I feel like I got more training there than I did. Like maybe that sort of helped me to be able to do Chappelle Show because it was a same sort of thing. John Leguizamo sort of took me under his wing and then brought me onto the show and we would perform it, you know, every Thursday after rehearsing all week and wow in front of a live audience, and we would do all these different characters. Yeah, Gamma is one of those

actors that can literally do everything. It's so insane, Like, I'm also the most insecure, freaking actor in person you can ever imagine. I think that's why I'm constantly Like me and Katie were talking about this the other day because Katie's in an acting class and I was like, Katie, I kind of want to go and you know, audit the class and possible part of it, just to sort of keep keep that instrument oiled up so I don't get super anxious when I'm not working for long periods

of time, you know what I mean? Yeah, were you aware working on the Chappelle Show, like before it comes out or before it starts getting the attention it does that what he was doing and talking about was different and unique, not like any other job or for you, was it a job and you got to play? Yeah? I think it was a little bit of both. I remember just having such a blast and everything being so it was just so funny. I remember just like truly,

like sincerely cracking up shooting these sketches. But then also in the back of my head, I was like, this is this is like other level because it wasn't just some sort of bs like comedy skit there was again there was like a lesson and a point behind all of it. So I remember thinking for sure that this is something special. You know. Last thing pre Shondalanda have to bring up to the two of you. On a lot of my bios, it says that I was on

this little show and an uncredited role. This is, unfortunately for me, false Both of you appeared in episodes of The Sopranos. Were you were you Katie by the time you got on? Were you a fan of the show? It was the biggest show ever, Like it was the biggest show ever. It was the biggest thing. You were aware? Yeah, I was on season six, so it was already like

the biggest show ever. Like what I call my parents to tell them I got one line on The Sopranos, Like everyone was speechless, Yeah, you were on a two? Who did you play? No, that's what I'm saying, A false credit right on a bunch of bios. I don't know, and I don't think who it is here, Brian that they think that I was. It says I was in an episode uncredited. I wasn't at all. I never was. That's hilarious. I only got mine because actually Garm and I just found out from each other that we were

on the soprano was like, we didn't know that. Yeah. By the time I got on this Sprantos, it was like a Law and Order but like times a million, because it was one of the few shows that shot in New York, so everybody was trying to get on it, and also it was the biggest show, right. But I had one line, and Steve Bushemi was directing the episode, and I had to go to Silver Cup Studios and go to the callback, and I was so nervous it was insane, and I had to I smoke a cigarette

in the scene. And there I'm AJ's date to a family wedding, and a tray of like oysters come around and the you know, the wait staff says like, would you like one? And I take a look, and I inhale from my cigarette and I say, I don't eat fish, and then I blow out the tocsins. Right, So it's a joke line. But I was so young. I was twenty one, it was like twenty two, like one of my first jobs, and Bushmi just really didn't want a kid coming and who didn't smoke so they were like,

do you smoke? And I was like yes, And I'm pretty sure that's the only reason why I but because it was a wedding, and the whole episode took place in one scene in this wedding, in this wedding venue room, and I was AJ's date, and I was sitting at the family table. I was in the background in every scene. So I shot for three weeks wow at Leonard's in Long Island, which is where my cousin Michael got Botts, Bob Mitzvod and my whole family came. They let my

whole family come to set. Really, I hung out with you know, Tony Soprano in his trip, like the whole cast. They put us up in hotels in Long Island. I went out with all of them. It was remarkably fun, and I actually became lifelong friends with Jamie Lynn Sigler, who played Meadow. It's where we met and we've been friends ever since. Yes, she and I are friends, too. Surprised we haven't met me too, Brian. I know, it's very interesting. Okay, before Scandal, you appeared on two other shows.

You mentioned it briefly before Gray's Anatomy and Private practice. Were you all in on the Shonda land thing before scandal or were these just jobs for you? When I was like twenty four, I started watching Grey's Anatomy because I had a best friend who was on it, and I was like, I gotta get on a Shonda Rhime show. Like that was like in my head, I was like I just related to those women more than other women on television shows. They looked like me, They looked like

normal people. They talked, kind of asked, they were really like naturalistic, and like I just felt like, God, if I could just get in front of Shanda Rhimes, I think she might vibe my vibe, Like I think this is a fit. And you know what's crazy? This girl I used audition against all the time, Sarah Drew. We

used to always go head to head on everything. She got April on Gray's Anatomy, and I was like, great, get this girl out of here, give this girl a job, And in my head, I was like, if she likes Sarah Drew, she's definitely gonna like me, Like we could play sisters. So yeah, I had the Shonda Rhymes bug. Gray's Anatomy was a huge hit, and like maybe the Office, like there were comedies, but there weren't a lot of dramas where the leading ladies weren't like fucking alien gorgeous,

you know. And I was like, I can't. I knew that that wasn't my type, you know, like I just wasn't going to be able to do that. And then I saw Grays and I you know, saw Sandra Oh and Shandraw Wilson and not that they're not fucking gorgeous, and Meredith Gray and and they're all fucking gorgeous, but they were like also something else going on, and I was like, okay, I relate. So yeah, it had been

in my head. What about you, Gamel, Were you a fan of the shows Grey's Anatomy or Private Practice round the other? And I do just want to note that, you know, for like a decade, Grey's Anatomy aired on the opposite of the Office, So I just want to know what you were watching on Thursday nights at nine o'clock. I was a huge fan of Grey's Anatomy. There you go. Yeah, but now the Office, like my family, is obsessed with the same, the same. They have it on in the background.

It's one of the greatest shows of all times. Oh, so, yeah, I was a Filya for sure. You were. Yes, Were you trying to get in the show? I mean no, I mean, look it's sort of are just trying to get a job? Yeah exactly. I mean but do you remember your experience auditioning? I do. Yeah, it was very it was you know, I had one audition I was I was very reluctant to audition for the role because

I didn't understand why they wanted to see me. And the character description was, you know, he was a lot older and sort of described as a nebbish older guy who was obsessed with figurines, and I was like, what the hell is going on? Why am I going in for this? Was never going to get in And now I'm fifty one and I'm like fifties the new twenty six like you. But I had that one audition and I just went for it. And and yeah, I've tested for other shows and it's been the most grueling and

nerve wracking experience. I'm sure Katie can agree with me. Ever, but the fact that Shanda did not put us through that fresh hell of testing over and over was so nice. We talk to me about this, what are you talking about there's no testing. No, I didn't test me either.

She didn't test anybody. I mean, they're What they did was they would make an audition tape in Linda Lowe's office and her you know, Linda Lowie cast Grays and cast Scandal and cast Private and she would make the tape in the office and Shawda would have her pick and Linda would have her pick. They would be the same person, and they would send it to ABC studio and network to be nice for like approval. But like they just sent the tape that you made in the room.

You never had to go to studio or network and do the scene again. Yeah, Brian is like, yeah, it was. And you know why because Linda Lowe is married to Jeff Perry, who played Cyrus on Scandal. But Linda loves actors and she's just like not going to fucking do that, Like that's not her. At a certain point when they could, when they got to a place of success that they did not have to do that With ABC, they did not,

and we benefited from it, Yes we did. God, now I really want to get into now that is that is incredible? That is unbelievable. Yeah, it's it's insane. It's really like. I auditioned once in the room, Shanda gave

me a redirection. I did the scene again. They taped both taps, and then two weeks later she called me into the office for what I thought was me going to audition again, and she was sitting in the room and I it was weird, and there was a tape going and I was like, Okay, should I start the scene? And she was like, oh, no, you don't have to. I've already sent the tape that you made two weeks ago to studio and network. You've already been approved, and

I'm going to give you the part. And they videotaped it and I started ugly sobbing beyond fic belief, Brian like boogers snot. I mean, I was running from my fucking babysitting job from a family who didn't believe in diapers, where the baby was just pooping in between my legs over a toilet, and I had the sides in my bag for another audition the next day. And I remember, just like after they told me, and I was hysterical crying. My agents didn't even know, nobody knew. Wait, why did

she call you back? In they wanted a videotape and it's on the behind the scenes DVD of season one, and I looked like a five year old and I had to sit in my car. I remember after I was sobbing and I was like, what do I do now? And she was like, well, wardrobe is gonna call you and there's gonna be a table read. And I was like, there's gonna be a table and then she was like and I said, this is the best day of my life. And she was like, but you just got engaged. I

was like, this is way better. My Asian was a horrible at a padic attack. I'm so scared to get married, but I've been fighting for this my whole life, like god, and even then, you know, like I think what was so I'm sure I've been. It was probably similar with the office actually, like we were never like, oh yeah we're getting picked up again, Yeah we're a hit show.

Like we were all so fucking tired and grateful to have a job and never ever took for granted, like we were a shoe in so and she had something she's caught on our podcast and said, you know, she had a no asshole. She called our previous couple bosses to vouch for us and our behavior and our personalities. Oh yeah, she was pretty serious about putting together a group of like nice people. Well, based on what I've heard from Bellamy, everyone was they were It's really gross.

It's just gross. Like the press used to come up to us and be at events and be like, do you guys hang out with anybody else? Because we would just sort of be with each other together after like eight years, and they'd be like, but can you guys go talk to me? Like no, we only just like love each other. It was pretty magical from the audition all the way through. That's so crazy, Like the shoe, the other shoe never dropped where it was like and

that's when everything went south. Nope. Right. One of the things that Bellamy said to me was that the cast up scandal was like a bunch of theater kids totally. I also think theater people for you, I think too like I think theater people have this sense of the ensemble, like it's something bigger than your own singular performance, which I think is such a healthy way to for a

long running television show. It makes it so that yes, I mean Kerrie Washington was obviously the star of Scandal, But like, storylines move around so much when you've been on the show, and I think so much of like theater background is like this is an ensemble. This is like their storyline this week and my storyline next year, and like, you know, just really understanding that you're part

of a much bigger thing. Was there any conscious conversation about differentiating it from other shows about politics that had existed before, I mean, like West Wing or something. Well, yeah, I mean Sanda was obsessed with she was a huge West Wing fan, Okay, And I remember when Molina walked on to set, Josh Mlene. It was the only time I've seen her star struck in the last fifteen years. God, it was so crazy to be on a political show then,

wasn't it. Gee? God? Yeah, yeah, yeah, But I don't even I don't even remember any other I didn't watch West Wing, but I don't even remember any other What were the other political shows that were Were there even any others on at the time? Well, no, I mean Veep came on, yeah, and we all ended at the

same time. I remember reading some article in the New York Times maybe or the LA Times where like as soon as Trump got elected, VEEP ended and Shanda chose to end Scandal because she was like, I'm doing a terrible job quoting this. But she said something like, it's one thing to write a political show when all the lights are on in Washington, but when all the lights are off in DC and we don't know what the fuck is going on anymore, I can't write anything. I

can't do this world anymore. It was one of the reasons she like, I mean, she always knew that Scandal would have a beginning, middle, and end, but I know that that did not help things at all. Yeah, it was crazy. I remember the cast always being dropped into DC for the White House Correspondent dinner, and it was insane.

We all got to meet Barack Obama and Michelle Obama and Michelle Obamas all telling us so she watched Scandal all day and it's her like thing to do on weekends, And I just about died on the floor, Like I just was like, this is insane. Yeah, yeah, your characters, you guys had a little romance at one point. Oh yeah, yeah, a very a very dark, dysfunctional, chaotic romance. I'm air

quoting if you would even call it a romance. I think it was more of a I don't know, like a crazy sort of connection that they had, and they just lusted average after each other and we played like crazy motherfucker's Like, so Garbo plays a spy, torturer, killer, but he takes me under his wing and I get really good also, and then we bone town USA for like a bunch while. But it's like I was so delicate. I was being delicate for a purpose so insane, and

now was that filming together? It was that fun. Hell, it was fun. I say that about nobody else. By the way, the times on the show that I got to torture people or have crazy like on camera sex with Quinn were the most fun ever. You know, it was real. Debbie Allen directed the first episode where we had to like I smack your face, then you grab my cheeks so that I can't speak. You're like hurting my face and oh I smacked him so hard his ears was ringing, it wasing for like half an hour.

I've talked about this on other shows, but I was like, Katie, smack me for real, like do it for real, for real? And then I was like, what did you say? Debbie like I couldn't he. I was like, we had been friends for three years already and done three seasons when our characters took a turn to get together or so, we had a lot of actually like actory conversations where we were like, we got to use a lot of tongue, like these two are not this classic movie star TV

kissing bullshit where it's just a lot of lip. Like we're fans of that, like we love watching Carrie and Fits and Olivia do that. But for Quinn and Hawk, they beat to a different drum. They're super weird, super kinked out. They torture people for fun. So we were like these to feel authentic to them, we have to

be weird. Yeah, And thank god we were so close and we felt really safe and like able to go there because I actually think it would have been really weird had Quinn and Hawk just sort of done like a PG thirteen sort of vibe like they were weird. Yeah. I also feel like I don't know if I would have been able to if we would have been able to do this, if it wasn't you and I. I'm trying to think if I had a different actor that

I was working with, I was playing Quinn. I don't know if I would have felt so comfortable or to be like, hey, Katie, like, let's at some point I didn't even ask you, but I did. I spit on you. But then afterwards I was like, oh my god, I'm so sorry. You were like I don't care. Oh yeah, we had already had the conversation like you could do anything, like we were so game. We just felt very safe. And did you have a safe word? No? No? What? Um? So wait, did you take it further than the writers

had intended? Yeah? I think so. I think so too. Yeah, but they wrote weird shit, so like we had already licked each other's faces, he had pulled my teeth out with fires that had already been in the script. So it's like, yeah, maybe they didn't write spit or slap or right that kind of thing, but we had already gone to some really freaking weird, dark places. But I do think we took it further than what they wrote. Yeah, seven years together. Very difficult to say goodbye? How was

it for you all? I feel like it was difficult to say goodbye to the show, but it wasn't difficult to say goodbye to the I mean it was difficult, but I felt like they're going to be in my life forever, So that didn't feel like I was like there was I was experiencing a loss as far as the actors, but the show was. I mourned. I mean, playing Huck for a long time, I'm still mourning it. He's the greatest character of all time. You know, we

were really lucky. Shanda had told us a year before that it was ending, so we had a lot of goodbyes, We had a lot of last things. I feel like I actually was kind of relieved, Like as weird as that is, I just felt like we did it. Like we did it well. We did the goodbyes, well, we played our parts well, no one everyone left on amazing terms. Like I just was so proud of us that we all like laid our heads on the pillow at the rap being like we fucking did that show. I was

like so proud. And not to say that it would have taken a turn, you know, I think we could have done it for a million more years, but we really finished on a high, and that's what Shanda wanted. And I do think it would have been different to be on a political show under a different presidency. I do, like, I think, you know, we were sort of in this wonderful bubble of like Obama and the world looked different and it was pre pandemic, and so I'm sort of glad it ended where it did and they gave us

so many chances to say goodbye. Yeah. We're watching episodes now of the show and Katie and I are like, um, it's so much crazier in real life than we were ever on the show politically wise. That you're right. I don't know if it would have if it would have even you know, resonated with people, it would have been like vanilla. Yeah, I mean all the crazy stuff that's going on. Yeah, Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. I think we got out with our heads held high

and we could be grateful for that. You have a new podcast, Unpacking Toolbox. Yeah, about scandal? What what made you want to dive back into it? Into office ladies? Okay? And I was listening to all these other rewatch podcasts and I was like, Yo, someone is definitely going to jump on this scandal thing, and it should definitely be

me and Guermo. I had already had a podcast for five years called Katie's Crib that's also produced by Shonda Land Audio, and it's a parenting podcast and it was the first one they had underneath Shonda Land's audio department. So I just called them and I was like, do you think you could do a scandal? Rewatch? I feel like we have one hundred and twenty four episodes. The Gladiators have been bored out of their minds with no

content for years since we went off the air. Garmo and I love to hang out anyway, and we're funny and cute even though you don't see us. Our voices are delicious. Let's do this. I pitched it before I even had like a yes from I didn't even tell Garma. You knew I was gonna be like, hell, yeah, I hope. So. I mean, he's the busiest actor and he's very very in demand and everybody wants him. But I was like, dude, you could just stay at home, so in yeah, that's awesome. Yeah.

I know you're not on Twitter that much anymore, Katie, but I still am. And the amount of people that are listening to the podcast and are flipping out over it and are still excited about it, and have started to rewatch Scandal on my heart is remarkable. The other thing, Brian, like the Office that everyone's like watching it now and you're probably getting like Gray's Anatomy has all these new teenagers that are literally starting grays Anomy from the beginning.

The Office is having the same thing. And Scandal I didn't know until us rewatching it one hundred percent holds up yes and works and his wonderful ride of TV and I'm just like, it's on Hulu. You guys can stream this, like I'm watching all the other hot shows that are nominated for every fucking Emmy under the sun, and like skin Fills a great show. Yeah, is it fun to go back and rewatch? Do you remember it?

It was? It was a scary at first to think about having to go and start to watch all these episodes, But now so much time has passed, I feel like I'm watching someone else, and that's really really nice, do you know what I mean? Like I feel like I'm a true Scandal fan now a gladiator and I'm able to just enjoy it, you know, without any of my critical brain jumping in and being like why did you do that like that? Or why did you say that line like that, I'm I'm just sitting back and enjoying it.

And it's so freaking good and I'm so good, You're so good. It's also the perfect amount of time, Like I think it's been ten years since the first season, so we're I'm I don't remember, I'm like, who is that? Like this is so long ago. And like you said, I don't really remember a lot of the scenes that I shot, but I do remember the behind the scene stuff, right vary, Yes, yes, yeah, same, that's awesome. That's awesome. Yeah,

you're awesome, Brian, You're awesome, Brian, stop it keep going. Um. As Katie mentioned Gammo, you're the busiest man in television recently. Law and Order Organized Crime? How was that? It was? It was? It was trippy, but at the same time, it's a universe that I always feel comfortable in when they invite me back. And it was a blast, and and you know, and and in this Law and Order

Organized Crime, I was not playing a criminal. I was playing, yes, a detective look at you, which which baby's grown up. Oh but he was still he was still a crooked Yeah. Um, And I got to, you know, to act with chrism Tony and uh Mauritia Hargete and Iced Tea because there was a lot of crossover with Lawn Order SVU, so it was it was really really fun. And I don't know if I'm going back. I was recurring on the show. I don't know if I'm going back. But Life of

an Actor, folks, Life of an Actor. Yeah, and Katie, you of course were in the most talked about show of twenty twenty two in inventing Anna john Land. Thanks for having me to the universe. Were you surprised by all of the discussion of that. It's so bizarre to me. People are like the most obsessed with that story of all time. I truly was not, And I've talked about this with Shawn, like she's obsessed with the story and

people are obsessed with Anna Delbie. I'm like, this bitch is a psycho and a sociopath and not kind and broke laws and like get her out of here, Like I don't understand, but I get I don't know. People are I mean, people talk to me every day. I get a text about like did you hear what's happening with Anna Delvi? Like she's doing this now? I'm like, I don't care. Gave her a goddamn show she got they gave her. Yeah, she's a criminal. I don't I

never was like that. O'b says it. Look, I was so thrilled to be part of the story, and I'm so glad the show was wildly successful. And Julia Garner, I would act with her if she was reading the phone book. She's so genius. And Laverne Cox and Anna Clumsky and I mean, the cast was ridiculous, and of course Shawna. The writing was wonderful and I got to play a part that was so difficult, and I got to go to Morocco for a month and stay in the hotel where my character was conned, and I took

my whole family and it was the shit. That's awesome. But I feel like that was my swan song playing a twenty seven year old like I forty me too, Like I can't like whoa. It's so fascinating though, because there were a couple of years ago it was the murder Duck serious stuff. You know, there was some you know, murderer in the Wisconsin town. I think it was called

like that was the thing. And then last year. It was like all of the con things and I have to say, I'm drop out, the uber Vanting, the tender Swindler, all of these stories about these people who are just horribly deceptive people doing terrible things to people. And I'm a little bit like you where I'm like, I don't understand why we just don't take these people and lock them away. I don't either. I yeah, I was. It was never a big thing for me, but that was

like for the job. Well, it was a great show with a great performance by you. And uh, I had to cry a lot. You had to cry a lot a lot, but you got the stick. So you did You didn't You didn't. I have like an hour's worth. It takes in me with that one. If that and then I'm like ted, Yeah, you guys are awesome. Thank you so much for taking the time to hang out

with me Unpacking the Toolbox. If you're a Scandal fan, or even if you're not totally right now, check out the podcast because that will enable you to definitely check out Scandal. You guys, thank you so much, Come back anytime. Thank you, Brian, Bye everybody. Katie Giermo, you guys are the best. Thank you so much, good luck on the podcast Unpacking the Toolbox, and thank you so much for joining me and telling me juiciest scandal ever, because that

is definitely it just happened. Listeners make sure to tune in to their podcast and come back here next week for more stories Off the Beat. It can't come soon enough, and have a great week everyone. Off the Beat is hosted an executive produced by me Bryan Baumgartner, alongside our executive producer Langley. Our senior producer is Diego Tapia. Our producers are Liz Hayes, Hannah Harris, and Emily Carr. Our talent producer is Ryan Papa Zachary, and our intern is

Sammy Katz. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by the one and only Creed Bratton