Jenna Fischer Rerun

welcome back. Here we are. We're back baby the Office Deep Dive. I'm your host, Brian Baumgartner. Today you will be hearing my conversation with Jenna Fisher. Let me tell you something. Jenna and I bonded during the run of the show. We were both nerds for television, and we would have long conversations about television and what we were doing in television. In a way, those conversations are what

led me to want to do this podcast. Conversations that I had over the years with Jenna and recently since I started this podcast. And she obviously is the grand Puma. I don't think that's the right phrase of podcast. Her and Angela obviously a host and produced Office Ladies. Jenna and I, over the last couple of years have been bonding once again over the office, what the office means today in the cultural zeitgeist, and she and I have

had lengthy conversations about that very subject. And today you're going to get to be a fly on the wall. I can't wait for you to hear it. She is one of the most insight full, incisive, smart uh women that I know, and I'm so excited to talk about the thing that we both love, the office. So here she is, Jenni Fisher, Bubble and squeak, I love it. Bubble and squeaker, Bubble and squeaker cookie. Every moon lived over from the nubb before. Oh how are you? What

is this? I don't know? How are you you? Oh my gosh, it's happening. You can see I got all dressed up. Please in my in my hat and puffy coat. I are we beginning? Have we begun? I mean you're ready? Looks? Officially have papers and a don't computer? In a computer? Do you use a you don't use a computer? During my podcast, I use papers and angel uses notes. Note cards. See. I can scroll here, I can scroll through things, and

I can skip on interesting things. But you're staring right in my eyes while you do it, and jess or yeah, so I don't have to do this. Yeah, that's so loud and messy, and I was very distracted by that. It's slightly weird to be stared out while someone's hand is like scrolling a car. You won't see it, well, I won't. I won't. I'm not going to scroll through fifteen pages. Wow, fifteen pages. Listen, there's a lot here.

This is a big day. It's a really big day. Okay. Yeah, So two thousand and three, yep, what were you doing before the office? I had been at this point finally making a living as an actor for one year. I'd been in Los Angeles over seven years, but I was finally all of my living from just acting. I had done a pilot. You get paid a lot to do a pilot, so that was a big thing. But the

pilot wasn't picked up. So I made a grandiose announcement to my management and agents that I would be quitting acting. I couldn't take it anymore. I couldn't take the rejection. I just was putting my heart out there, and I just thought, I'm going to become a vet technician. I was very sure this is true, this is true. I don't remember this. I looked into it. It's a two year program. It's very full time. And my manager, Naomi Odenkirk, she said to me, Jenna, will you give us one

more year? I mean, you're so close, you really are. You don't understand. This is what it is. My acting coach yelled at me and said, don't be stupid. You're doing great. This is what an actor's life is. It's a series of minor accomplishments and tons of rejection. So this is being an actor. You're doing it. So I said, okay, I'll do one more year. And that was the year that I got the audition for Pam on the Office. By the way, I was also starting down my vet

tech you were going. I was working with an animal rescue group and I was taking care of cats in my own home. I was learning how to do things like fluids and all kinds of medical things. I did not know this. Yeah, I was trapped neutering and releasing cats in the wild. Oh my word. Then Alison Jones called and asked me to audition for the Office. Now, I had been auditioning for Allison Jones for five years. So the first thing I went on a general meeting

with Alison and it was a great meeting. And Allison called me in to audition for a one line role on Freaks and Geeks. Right, I didn't get it. Then Allison called me to audition for Undeclared, which was a Jet Apatow show, for one line, and I got it, and that one line led to a second episode where I had two lines. So this was my first recurring role. Yes, this is okay, but this is all you know a while ago, right, I think I also threw Allison got.

My very first speaking role on television was for Spin City the Charlie Sheen Years. Okay, So those were some a few of my ways that Allison had been in my life and she was great. She also called me in for like a Steven Spielberg miniseries that I bombed. It went nowhere. I was horrible. She said, maybe drama's not your thing, and then yeah, she said, you know it's You're gonna be fine. Don't worry. I'm still going to call you in for other things, but maybe drama's

not your thing, so very quickly. My Alison Jones story was I moved to LA right before The Office started, and I knew the British version of the Office very well, and I knew they were doing an American version. I was like, this is the show that I must be on. And so I went to my agent at the time and I said, Okay, they're looking for people who are not known, and they said, this is a direct quote. They said, they're looking for unknown people, but not like you, unknown,

not like totally. But my manager he kept calling and calling and calling, and I went and I met with Phillis, then I met with Alison, and then I ended up doing that. Well, so here's the thing that little caveat

in the casting call that said unknown actors only. Yeah, that was why this was my big break, right, And this was also why I had been so frustrated and wanted to give up, because I would go through these long audition processes for television shows and I would get as far as the on camera test part, and then they would give it to Alison Hannagan. Alison Hannagan got like three parts that I was four. I could not

break through Alison Hannagan. But I was this unknown actor and I had absolutely nothing to offer a bill board on Sunset Boulevard. I had, you know, no name recognition, right, So I couldn't get these big lead parts until the office, when finally the thing that had been working against me was my gift, which was that I was unknown. Right. And now, what do you remember about the day of Did you see anybody else? There any other people that you knew at the time or that ended up being cast,

or was there anything specific about that day? Well, I've seen those casting sheets that Allison showed us at the end of the series, and I saw all the various well known now well known people who came in to read for the different parts, and none of those people were at my casting call that I remember, but I would neither. I was just very focused on my audition, Right,

can we play that clip? You have a clip? I hope they get rid of me because then I might actually get off my ass and do something, because I don't think it's many little girls dreams to grow up and be our receptionist. And I don't know what I'm going to do, but whatever it is, it's got to be a career move, not just another arbitrary job. And Jim's advice was that it's better to be at the bottom of a ladder that you want to climb than halfway up one you don't. Was that my audition? Yes,

that's insane. Do you remember that? I mean, was that was that you? Or was that was that scripted? That was scripted? Okay? So I had a monologue that was scripted that that talking head, right. I also did a scene. I did the scene where Michael fires Pam and she calls him a jerk, where he fake fires her as a joke, and then I had a just improvised interview with Greg. Greg Daniels was there at my first audition. I went, I guess straight to producers as they call it.

So Alison and Greg were there, and I remember Greg being very ringing his hands like in a like a fun like he couldn't believe he's going to get to start this project and he's so excited, and and I just remember the way he was looking at me. It was very curious, kind of like, huh, she's not doing much as she m interesting. That's so well, So I'm going to start talking about myself again because it's ultimately

everything is about me. My thing was I knew that Kevin was the part that I should have, and Alison Jones is brilliant, but she had me reading for Stanley, and so I read Stanley as if it were Kevin. Ah, And then I left the room thinking, well, I'm not sure, and sure enough she ran after me and said, oh, we had this other part that we want you to look at, and so then that's how that happened. Oh that's amazing. Yeah, Um, the test process, how is that? Yeah.

So normally when you test for a show, you just perform your scenes live in front of a conference room full of executives. But we were told that because the camera was such an essential part of our show and relating to the camera was so important, that they wanted to do an on camera series of test scenes with the final four actors for each part. So they called us into an actual office building for two days and they mixed and matched us and they taped us doing scenes.

And it was great because we were able to give those looks to camera. We were able to react when we noticed the camera was there when we thought it wasn't. It really was such a huge element of the show. Greg's other argument for doing it that way was that the show was small in its acting, and the moments that played the biggest were small moments, and he didn't really feel like auditioning in a conference room was going to give the executives the right feel for what he

was going for what the show was. Yeah, totally genius. And now, what are some of the things that you remember that were different in the way that the pilot was shot from say, a normal television show. I remember on the pilot, everyone in the cast had to be hair and makeup ready and at their desks starting at seven thirty am, and we would work quote unquote for thirty minutes. And Ken would walk around with just a camera operator and a boom and record us at our desks.

Just be roll of us at our desks, right, And what did you think of the pilot when you saw it? What did I think of the pilot when I saw it? I must have watched that pilot a gazillion times. I have a very embarrassing story about watching them. Okay, go ahead. So there was a friend of a friend who was this big deal manager and he really wanted to see the pilot, and I thought, well, I have a DVD of the pilot. Maybe I'll take it to his office.

But I was so afraid of it leaking that I insisted that he watched it while I sit across from him. I wouldn't leave the office without the DVD. I was like, well, you can watch it, but you have to watch it right now while I wait, what was I doing? I was nobody. I don't know. Isn't that so weird? That amazing, so bizarre. But he really wanted to see it because everybody in town wanted to see the pilot. Everyone wanted to see it. They were dying to see what this

American version of the British show was going to be. Now, Brian, do you remember coming to my house and watching the pilot and sitting on my floor and gathering all together? Yes? I do. Yeah. Angela was talking to me about it recently and she was like, well, I remember you couldn't get the sound to work on your sound system And I was like really, and she was like yeah. And I remember my dog got out and I had to

chase my dog down the street. That's another story, but but that was sort of the beginning of us all gathering together. To watch the show every week, which is what we did. That's so I totally forgot about that. So so we're in a real office space and we are doing this fake work, b rule stuff, like all of these elements to try to create sort of the ultimate reality. Yeah, and to me that there's something interesting. Well, what would you say your training was as an actor?

As an actor, yeah, I have a Bachelor of Arts in theater from a little liberal arts college in rural Missouri called Truman State. So this job was a dream job for me as a theater geek. To be able to do this acting exercise where I'm at my disk excuse me very much, but I'm acting, was like, oh, it was everything my training had prepared me for. That's yeah, see that's and so that was you and then Rain and I knew each other a little bit from theater

as well. And then you've go aunt Angela and Oscar and Steve, who are like improv yes, right, and then

we got bj and Craig Robinson that are stand up guys. Primarily, to me, there was something about the creation of the ensemble that there were all of these funny people, but they all sort of had a different perspective, and there was something about the reality, sort of the ultra reality of being stuck in this room and doing this work, yeah, and always being there together that that sort of helped

meld us together in a weird way. Yeah. I think if we had all been improv performers, it would have been a shit show, right, Or if we were all theater people, we would have been taking all of ourselves too seriously. The mix was important, like the way all of the ingredients came together. And I think you know, another thing that was really unusual was that we were all always at work, because if you weren't in a scene,

you were in the background of a scene. We would joke sometimes we'd be like, do none of us go to the bathroom? We never leave for lunch, Like we're always all at our desks. By season six or seven, people were going to the bathroom a little bit more from Time to Die, yes, more often that all right, Well, Theodore Nerd, how is Pam different from Jenna? Well, it would not take me three years to tell Jim that I had feelings for him. I mean I would have

dumped Roy much quicker. I would have been like, who's this guy? Because not just that. I mean, when we meet Pam and Jim, they've already been working together for a couple of years, and then it's still three more years after that before they figure some stuff out. I mean, I'm much more ambitious, much more of an entrepreneurial spirit than Pam. However, the way that we are very similar is that it took me a long time like Pam

to figure out how to speak up for myself. Like Pam, I spent many years sitting at a reception desk, wishing that I was doing something else. I literally sat at reception desks and daydreamed about the day that I might be an actor. And Pam sits at that desk and she daydreams about being artistically expressed. And so I could really relate to that, that feeling of I want something more than what I'm doing, but I don't know how

to get it exactly. But I will say that as Jenna, I was taking much more actions in my life to get out of my situation than I think Pam did. It took Pam a lot longer, but she had a lot more forces against her than I did. You know, I'm not sure Pam's mom was saying things to her, or her parents were saying things to her like, honey, you can do anything you want to do. If you want to be an artist, you go be an artist. I mean, that was the messaging that I was getting

from my parents. You gotta go for it. Do what you love in life. Even if you aren't successful, you'll be glad you did it. I mean, I had those kind of parents. They didn't support me financially as an actor, but they supported my spirit and they were always there for that pep talk. And I mean, I don't even know if I can explain how valuable that was. And it was clear to me that Pam didn't have some

of those tools in her toolbox. Do you think that Greg and the writing staff, because in a way they were masterful about this, right about finding things, finding things that were true to you the actor, and incorporating them into the story. Do you think that Pam's want and desire to be an artist and to be seen in that way? Do you think that there's anything that was taken from you? I'm not sure because if I remember correctly, I feel like the character on the British Show had

some minor desire to be an artist doesn't. Doesn't the Tim character give Don some drawing pencils at some point? Or am I making that up? And I don't remember. I don't know, But I do know that Greg used to ask me questions about my thoughts, that that was so unusual, the fact that several of our writers were also actors, so they were down with us, they were

observing us all the time. I mean, you, Angela and Oscar single handedly created that insane dynamic between the three of you through I believe improvisation when you were bored in the background, and so then you've got Mindy, BJ and Paul watching you guys, and then taking that back up to the writer's room and flushing it out totally. It was genius that Greg did it that way. But then more than that, Greg truly believed that no one knew our characters more than we did, and he would

ask us questions all the time. He cared about our opinions. He wanted to know all the time, what do you think Pam would think of this situation? He was always very curious. He also knew that I worked in offices and that I had worked as a receptionist, and he used to ask me questions, what's the craziest thing one

of your boss has ever made you do? And I can't remember if I told this story to him before or after, But there's that episode where Michael is refusing to sign all of his documents until the end of the day. He just keeps putting it off and putting it off and putting it off. And I told Greg I had this boss once that every month, at the end of the month, he had to turn in this boiler plate report and he would put it off and

put it off. And one time he put it off so long I had to drive to lax because that was the last FedEx pickup. And I was so pissed. And Greg was like he loved those stories. He loved whenever we told him stories like that, and they would get used. Okay, so we shoot the pilot, we eventually air. It's striking to me that you started like December ish right of like two thousand and three into January. We

shot the pilot in February of two thousand and four. Yeah, and it's thirteen months before anything gets on the air. It's not so I mean, it's well, I've got a story about that. We shot the pilot in March of two thousand and four, and my thirtieth birthday was March seventh of two thousand and four, and I did not invite any of you to my thirtieth birthday party because

I assumed I would never see you again. I was so sure that making the pilot was the end of our show, that it would never get picked up, not because it wasn't good, but because it was so good and so weird and so special that no one would give us a chance. I thought, well, I don't know. All the word on the street was just have fun making your pilot, that's all it'll be, right, And then similarly, have fun making your next five episodes. They'll probably just

be yours to own on a DVD enjoy, right. So yeah, So then we go back, We make these five episodes in a complete bubble, and then it was not until yeah, like that following what was it? Was it like April of two thousand and five they started March of two thousand and five, they finally start airing. Yes, and they had to tell us by May if we were picked up for the second season, then yes, crazy, yeah, crazy,

And we were a disaster, like a ratings disaster. Well, if it were today, we would be a ratings hit right off the bat, because right, but yes, we were a ratings disaster. But then you know what happened, and I know exactly why we got picked up. It was that forty year old Virgin came out. Yeah, forty year

old Virgin came out and one hundred percent. I can hear in my imagination a conference room filled with NBC executives all saying, we aren't going to be the assholes who let Steve Correll, the number one box office comedy, start out of his television contract. Right, we're picking up this show for six episodes of season two. Again, six episodes is all we got for season two. But then they really did tailor the show more to Steve, more to what Steve would be as Michael rather than as

inspired by David Brent. Yeah, so what do you remember? What differences do you remember between one and two? Like artistic changes, artistic changes. I think the biggest thing I noticed was when we started season two, Steve had lost what twenty pounds are more? I don't know. He was so fit because he had gotten in shape for forty year old Virgin, and they started allowing the character of Michael to be more sympathetic. They would let him break

our heart a little bit. Even in the Dundees, for example, you see a bunch of people heckel Michael, and then you see the people in the office stand up for Michael. And in the first season none of us ever stood up for Michael. We all just hated Michael. But they started to allow Steve to display vulnerability, which he's so good at. But then also you have an episode in season two, like the Client, where you see Michael start out as what seems like a total buffoon and turn

into a masterful salesperson. Right, you see a reason that he actually has this job. Yes, And I think those were differences. In the first season, we just really leaned into his mean spirited buffoonery the ways he irritated us. But now in season two we were bringing out sprinklings

of these very redeeming qualities in him. Or even the Halloween episode in season two where at the very end, after he's had this horrible day of having to fire someone, you see him hand out candy to these little kids. It makes me cry every time I watch it every time, Or the end of Office Olympics where he's crying because everyone is so genuinely applauding for his purchase of a condo. These little moments in each episode. There seemed to be

one in each episode that was very different from season one. Right, season two, everything everything changed, Right, So we have six episodes, and then we do six episodes and then didn't we get I think four? Four more and then three more and then two. Yeah, and then what I remember very clearly was sometime after the New Year, they said, okay, you can finish twenty two, and then within two weeks we had an order for season three, a full order. I did not remember that. Yes I do. Do you

think I'm wrong? No, I don't think you're wrong. I always wondered because to me, I did not feel like I had job security until Steve won the Golden Globe. Well, there was that, and then there was iTunes. Yeah, they started doing the video iPods. The Christmas episode went to number one like that. Yeah, and the Christmas episode on TV was our highest rated show. So it was like, you know, from December to January suddenly things changed. Yeah, and then after season two we won the Emmy. Yes,

is there anything specific about that? Night that you remember. I remember that Emmy's because at this point now we had become a bit of a critical darling. So in the beginning, the critics hated us, right, and they only compared us to the British show. And then we had turned them around now in time for this Emmy Awards, and so being at these awards, we were the new

kids on the block. We were super fresh. The critics loved us, but we were still not a front runner to win, and so it was a complete surprise when we won. Many people there had no idea who we were. They didn't recognize us. It's funny. I remember, I remember running into the cast of Scrubs and they were like the big deal guys, and we were the newbies and they were super nice to us, and I was like,

oh my gosh, it's Scrubs. Cut to like eight years later, I remember and being at an awards show and running into the next batch, the new freshman class of TV right, and I remember thinking, oh, I'm Scrubs. Now we're Scrubs. We're We're like the kids who've been around the block a few times. Totally. See mine wasn't mine, was Porsche d ROSSI Oh, you ran Intoe at the first Emmy's

super nice, so great. Yes, and that's what I thought. Um, going back a little bit, another thing that I think made us really unique and also sort of that ultra realism was Scranton. Yeah, and making the decision for it

to be Scranton. Well, and I know that they did a lot of research when it came to just the things that were around the office, local radio stations, hers potato chips from Pennsylvania, We're in our vending machine, really creating this realism, the Lackawanna County coal mine, coal mine, things like that, you know, working all that stuff into the show. I know it really always broke Greg's heart that we never shot an episode in Scranton. Every year they would toy with the idea of taking us there,

and it was just always cost prohibitive. I know Greg's dream was that we would shoot the Saint Patrick's Day parade. This is so crazy that you're saying this. That was literally when asked my biggest regret, that was it? Yeah, I would say the same. My biggest regret was that we never shot in Scranton. But the city of Scranton. I remember one year they were really looking into this parade idea, and they agreed to move their parade two months earlier, you know, because we would have to shoot

before Saint Patrick's Day. So they were going to have their Saint Patrick's Day parade in January, and they just couldn't figure out, costwise how to get the entire cast and crew there. Right, to me, it's this weird like dichotomy thing where even though it was about Scranton where very few people had gone right on a national scale, like people don't know those places, but having those details sprinkled into me somehow translated to making it more universal.

I absolutely agree with you. I think as a person who grew up in Saint Louis, Missouri, me and other people who grew up there, we so identify our city as part of us, and so it made it more universally real that we identified so strongly with the city we were in Scranton, and I think that's true of a lot of people where you grow up, right. No, absolutely, there's just I love that city and there's something about

my connection to that city. Do you remember the I can't remember the year, but the presidential election right where everybody who was running somehow suddenly everybody was from Scranton, right, like Joe Biden at this Scranton connection, Hillary Clinton the office. No, totally, it was all like, oh yeah in Scranton, Pennsylvania. I used to go and visit Grandma and she would you know.

It was this crazy like became the sort of cultural touchstone, like the heart of the nation is located in Scranton, Pennsylvania. I love it. We talked about there was an interesting thing where, you know, the ultimate question is why the show is what it is now, which we'll examine in a minute. But it seems like we were writing this digital wave right like the show started. We're going to do a show about a dying industry. And at the same time that we're doing a show about a dying industry,

the technological advances we ended up this wave. Well, early on you might remember a bunch of us were on MySpace. Yes we're going to discuss Yes, Well, Angela, b J and I and you did as well. We had these MySpace pages that were on our computers while we were in scenes, and we were interacting with people on my Space.

We were blogging, but we were also I would type things to people like an instant message like Hey, when you watch the such and such episode, in this scene, you'll know I was typing this to you, and we just it was like before Twitter, before Instagram, before social media. It was really before Facebook. My Space was the place that there was this social interaction totally. And then there was iTunes that was huge for us. And then there were the webisodes, the first show that did that online

content and obviously sort of culminating in Netflix. How do you think that the that those things help to us either reach an audience or well, I think it connected people deeply to the show. And to have the actors of the TV show that you really love interacting with you, answering your questions, caring as much as you do, it kind of makes you feel like you're part of it in a more real, intimate way. And also it was real.

That connection was real. There would be times when the writers and Greg would read some Twitter feedback about an episode or a storyline, and it did affect things going forward. Give me my Remote I think was a website too, where give me my Remote? Yes? Yeah, all of there

reading this stuff. Yes, the idea of these bloggers. We had a bunch of fan sites we had Office Tally dot com run by Jenny Tan and this gal Jenny did such a good job of running this website that she would we would invite her to visit the set and give her exclusives and things. And then there was Northern Attack that was based on that line from Diversity Day as Abraham Lincoln said, I will attack you with the North. Yes, Northern Attack. I love Northern, So give

me my remote Northern Attack. All of these TV websites and bloggers people started blogging about us, and we were cool, right, like, oh no, totally yeah, And so this all happening for the part of something. Yeah, you were part of something. You were part of a movement in a way, and our show was part of that movement. I think I

was literally laying in bed last night thinking about this. Like, if you think about the off Us as like a person or a body or something, Pam was the heart and your relationship with so many different people, well with everybody, but really those three, you know, Jim and Dwight and Michael. Yeah, obviously the relationship with Jim. Why do you think that that relationship resonated so much with audiences? Oh, I think it's the unrequited love. I think we've all been there.

We've all been in love with someone who either didn't love us or couldn't love us, or because of circumstances or distance or whatever these things were were keeping us from being able to fully express our feelings. The longing, and then I think additionally the clear chemistry between the characters that you could see that they were meant to be together and you just rooted for them absolutely. But I think that there was also something about your performance

and John's performance. You showed such heart and vulnerability that I think people were really rooting for you, whether they had found what they wanted to or not. Well. I think both Pam and Jim are very good people. They're polite. It's one of the reasons why it takes them so long. And I think you always want the good guy to win. So I think you did want them to find one

another and be together. It's hopeful, right, Nothing throughout the entire history of the show brought production to a screeching halt like a big Jim Pam moment. It's true, And I say that with love and also with utter frustration. Yeah, we really really cared. I mean, John and I would fight hard for what we believed, and we were usually on the same page with Jim and Pam. Were had like a singular mind when it came to Jim and Pam.

For the most part, there was often one Jim Pam moment per episode, and it was either where they're going to connect in some super special swoony way, or they're gonna misstep in some way, or where one of them gets their feelings hurt. And there was this very fine line that we had to walk all the time. So for example, shooting a scene over and over and over again where this time they can touch hands, but then we have to do one where they don't touch hands

because it might be too much. When if their hands touch that might be going too far. Or do we end it with a hug or should he kiss her cheek? Before all of these little ways, how much were they allowed to literally touch one another, look in each other's eyes, swoon at each other. I mean we would We would spend hours debating and shooting alternates of these Jim Pam scenes. Yeah,

and ours is not an exaggeration. It is not an exaggeration. No. But what's amazing is this wasn't like mystical producers in another land talking about it. This was you and John who are in there indulgent. No, no, not at all. No. I mean I think it speaks to the two of you as artists, but I think that there's also the camera as a character. And what I recall is you and John, specifically with greg Or Ken or one of the other directors, you know, sort of two major questions,

who is seeing this moment? Is the camera seeing this moment? And how does that change my behavior in this moment? And those were the things that I feel like well brought production to a screeching hold. This was one of the most fun elements of working on our show was this camera as a character because this idea that when you know the camera is filming you, it affects your behavior. It certainly affects Michael's behavior. When he knows the camera

is on him, he performs for the camera. He does things like makes giant declarations and pledges of money to Oscar's nephews Walkathon in front of the camera. But then when he doesn't know that the camera is shooting through the blinds, he tries to talk his way out of it. So that is so fun. To play, and similarly with Jim and Pam. How do Jim and Pam behave when

they know they're being watched and observed? And then how do they behave with one another when they can't see the camera, when the camera is deep in the kitchen shooting through the blinds. I absolutely loved those nuances. Those were some of the most fun things to play with on our show. Yes, well, and when I directed, and I'm not just saying well when I directed to get

in the fact that I directed. But there was a moment later on season eight Kathy lindsay broad Yeah, Kathy and Jim goes away to Florida, and Kathy's clearly trying to get the moves on him. It's taking place in Jim's bedroom and we had to shoot the only way to shoot the room was through the windows, because if the cameras were in the room, we would not have gotten the interaction between Kathy and Jim that we ultimately wanted.

But then there was a phone call with Pam. You with Pam that happened there and I remember sitting you weren't Invalencia, you were probably home. Did I not come? Because I have a very vivid memory of being there when Jim was a smug bedbug? Was that your episode Smugbedbug Sug? I have a memory of watching Rain and John crack up as John was a smugbedbug. I think

that you came for the phone call. But we had a huge conversation about you were involved in what the interaction was between Kathy and Jim, because John wanted you involved and you wanted to be involved, and how that interaction, what that meant for your relationship with Jim. Yeah, anyway, I think it just speaks to everybody wanting to get it right. Yeah, we cared on this show very deeply. Everybody cared very very much. And I think that started with Greg. Greg's heart was in this show and you

could tell and he delighted. He delighted in getting it right. And we would shoot something and we would all look over at the monitors at Greg and see if he was doing his little handclap with his little smile and he puts his eyes up in the air. Oh you know, because that's when we knew we nailed it. And he was such a great barometer for that. When did you start realizing or noticing that Jim and Pam's relationship was becoming so important to people outside and was it infringing

on your real life? Well, realizing that my friend John and I couldn't go anywhere in public together as friends or else people would lose their minds. They didn't know how to deal with that. They didn't know how. And even today, people don't know how John and I are not a couple in real life, right. They don't understand it, And I don't know how to explain it because it's a little bit like telling kids there's no Santa. It's like, I don't want to break anyone's heart, right, So it's hard,

It's really hard. You should just explain that he's a real pain in the ass in a life. Why would you not just say that? But that's weird. I have to. I feel like I have to justify why John and I, which you aren't actually in love. And the bottom line is we were playing characters. But I know that if people think of us as John and Jenna, then it's destroying some of the magic of Jim and Pam. But I'm not Pam in real life, and he's not Jim

in real life, and in real life we're mismatched. He is perfectly matched with Emily, and I'm perfectly matched with Lee, and you know us all both, And in fact, I feel like if anyone wants to marry anyone, they want to marry Emily or Lee, they don't want to actually marry me or John. Is that a good description of why John and I are not a matched in real life because you know us both. Yes, I think that

that's a great description. I also think, yeah, you both were playing characters, and I think that you and you've expressed today how different you are from Pam and John is different from Jim. People perceive you to be that even you know, if someone has a couple of minute interaction with me, they're not going to mistake me for Kevin. Yeah, and I think that's so true of like and as well. Yeah, Angela is like a bubbly cheerleader. She's your best friend

in two minutes. She's so not the bitchy Angela Martin that she plays on the show. Oh come on, But I do see how John and I the line is a little more blurred, Like you can have an interaction with John and I and think maybe that we really are just like Pam or just like yam. Yes, yeah, okay. Do you have a favorite moment or moments between the two of you that you got to play together. Yes.

One of my first favorite moments is when we are up on the roof eating the grilled cheese sandwiches and you and Rain are doing the fireworks out in the lawn. And that was super special because we had this skeleton crew. Everyone had gone home for the day and up until this point we had mostly only ever been shooting in a big group in the office with lots of people, and here it was just me and John on some lawn chairs. It was a summer evening, like a warm breeze, candlelight.

Greg is up on the roof, just a couple of crew members were up on the roof, and it was like so peaceful up there, the five of us, and then watching you and Rain, who I believe we had no way of communicating with none, Yeah, just setting off fireworks. It just all felt really real and lovely. So that moment is one of my favorite moments. And what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna edit out you're talking about Greg and the other two crew members up there, because

then you just scribing sitting there with John. That's why people think you're in love. It's a warm summer breeze. We were sitting in lawn chairs on the roof. But some of it like it's true. It's like, you know, Matt Son is up on the roof and Greg is there and we're all just none of us can believe or on the roof and we had to take this.

They had this old, rickety, rusted ladder that was on the side of the roof that everybody else climbed up, but since John and I were cast members, we weren't allowed. So they've like fork lifted us up there on this wearing a weird harness. It was very funny. Yes, were you worried when Pam and Jim got married that that

was going to screw things up? I wasn't because we had been together now for a couple of seasons, right, So I think the question was can they get together and be a stable couple and will we still care? And and I remember having a conversation with Greg where Greg was like, well, you know what's going to lose people is if we just keep manufacturing these affairs and these you know, weird ways that we keep them apart.

That's exhausting and it's not realistic. And so what we're going to need to do is bring them together and then give them obstacles to overcome as a couple. So, rather than obstacles that keep them from being a couple, give them obstacles to break through as a couple, like Pam wanting to go to art school, or Jim wanting to start his own business, or having their first kid or whatever these things were, that they were going to have to weather the storm together, that that would be

more interesting and more realistic, and people loved it. I think that's so smart, so smart, because but he said, you know what's not going to be satisfying is if they get together at the end of season nine after multiple affairs and like all this, like everyone's going to be like, yay, I guess you know, congrats. I hope you enjoy your marriage with all your horrible baggage. Totally right, that's not a happy ending. I'd never smart. Yeah, Okay,

So I talked again about sort of that emotional core. Dwight, talk to me a little bit about the relationship between the two of you and how that changed and evolved. I mean, you were with Jim adversaries and made you crazy forever, and then ultimately by the end, he says that you're his best friend. Dwight does Dwight does you know? I think it's that first episode The Injury, when Pam has that line Dwight is kind of my friend, But

I think there's other things. You know, Jim and Pam spends so much time teasing Dwight, and I think even go too far. A few times. In my rewatching of the show, I think there's a few times when we're like, actually a little cruel to him that make me cringe and I feel like, oh if that wasn't our best moment. But I appreciate because we allow our characters to I mean, we don't all every day have perfect moments, right, right, But it's so hard for me to think about Pam's

relationship with Dwight without thinking about my relationship to Rain. Right. Rain is a deeply soulful person. He's also like a curmudgeonly old man. He's real cranky sometimes and on set he would be hilarious. Do you remember the time Do you remember the time that he declared, oh my god, it was so funny. We were getting ready to shoot, and he said, hold on, wait, just hold on, everybody, hold on for a second. I have an announcement. Everyone, on Mondays, you do not need to ask me how

my weekend was anymore. All right, every single person asked me how my weekend was, just so it was fine. We were like, where is this comming from? Right? And I talked to him about this and he goes, Jenna, that is not true. I said that on a Tuesday. I said, only asked me how my weekend was on Mondays.

No more of this bleeding into Tuesday Mondays. And he went crazy because you and I know what he was talking about, because it's five o'clock in the morning and every single person that you pass is like, hello, good morning, how is your weekend? Yes, And he what he was saying was like, you don't have to talk to me. We just saw each other on Friday night. We're good, We're good. Yes, It's so true. So he would be like that guy on this set. It was like so funny.

But then at the same time, in moments of deep crisis, I have phoned him. I had a job offer that was going to take me out of town and would uproot my family for a period of time that I really wrestled with the decision. I called him and he counseled me. He is he has that in him, a type of counselor, and I value him so deeply in my life. But then like like he'll call me up and he'll be like, do you want to go to lunch?

And I'm like, yeah, I mean, because you sound like you want to go so bad, Like is it a chore or do you want to go? He's like, no, I want to lunch with you. Like all right, let's go to lunch. And then you go to lunch, and I was just sort of like, are you liking our lunch? Are we having a good lunch? How are you tell me about you? And all yeah? So funny. But then like if I were to do you know what I mean? So it's like very much like the Pam Dwight where

Pam will like be like, oh, I love Dwight. I'm gonna go say something nice to him, and then he'll just be like, Pam something about knives, something about snakes or bears, and she's like yeah, okay, right, okay, But so I guess M. I feel deeply loved by Ray, and I think Pam Fille deeply loved by Dwight as well, like they had a real bond, They really cared for

one another eventually eventually. Yeah. Well, and it's similar to your relationship with Michael, right, I mean from where that relationship started and him fake firing you to him leaving and you having sort of that final moment with him. What did he say to you? Well, it wasn't so much what he said to me. Paul Fieke directed that episode Goodbye Michael, and we were at the airport and Paul Fike said, Jenna, I want you to just run up and just say goodbye to Steve, your friend Steve.

This is your last scene with him, so say goodbye. We're not going to use the sound, We're just going to have a spy shot on you. So I thought, okay. So I ran up to Steve and I just told him all the ways I was going to miss him and how grateful I was for his friendship and the privilege of working with him. And I'm sobbing, and he's sobbing, and we're hugging, and and I didn't want to let him go, and I didn't want the scene to end. And then finally Paul fi you know, says cut and

he was like, Jenna, that was that was brilliant. Can you do it again, but just a little faster because it had been like five minutes. He was like, we just need to tighten it up a little because they wanted him to actually walk away and they had one camera. Yeah, there was only one shot that they couldn't edit. Yeah, that is so great. I was like, just tighten it up a little, but sweetie, great job. I guess he

could tell. I was like sobbing. Yeah, I've in thinking back. Honestly, when he Steve leaving to me was almost more emotional than the show ending. Well, the thing is is that it wasn't just the character of Michael that we were losing. We were losing the captain of our ship, Steve Carrell.

And I don't think that I can say enough how important him as our leader was, because just the kind of man he is, his work, ethic, his kindness, his generosity, there was no ego, and to be led with that, along with Greg's heart, it was very frightening to me that we were losing him. He was our compass that pointed us north and kept us all in line, and I really worried, what's it going to be like on

set without him? We just all agreed he was the most important person on set, and we always wanted the day to be easy for him. He had the most lines, he had the most work, he had to drive the show, and we all just collectively we're there to support him. And he was so generous. I mean I remember, I remember directors would come in who were new and they wouldn't be able to find Steve, but he'd just be

sitting on the couch. By reception, We'll be like, oh, he's right there, because he was so He wasn't like a and I'm here kind of guy, you know, he was just And I say this because after working on the Office, I've worked on many projects where this is not the case, and I see how that infects a group of people when there is someone who is leading the ship, who is insecure and needs a constant ego boost, And it makes me even more grateful for how Steve

was and how he is still. I also remember Will Farrell coming in and guesting with us, and then I've done movies with Will Ferrell and he's the same way, and I always thought, Wow, they really have a competition for greatest person to work for work with Steve and Will just like nicest man in Hollywood. But so my biggest fear was even just what is the onset vibe going to be like without Steve? Not to mention what stories are we going to tell? Who are we without

this leader? And I'll say it here and this is the only time I've ever really publicly said this, but It's always disappointed me that we didn't trust in our core office group enough to continue the show without bringing in what I think we thought we needed, which were these big guest actors to fill steve shoes. And I always felt like fear drove some decisions to that. I

does that make sense? It does make sense. Yeah. I always wondered just what would that season have been like like what we then got with season nine, where we said, no, we're enough, the bench is deep enough, the talent is there. We can keep the ship afloat with what we have, right. I don't know how you feel about that season eight, No, I hear what you're saying. I think that there was fear and what would happen if we didn't have someone

else helming because being the boss changes the character. Yeah, so Dwight as the boss is not Dwight, that's right. Dwight is the character who wants to be the boss, who's always angling to be the boss, but who does not actually have the authority. Right, So if you make him the boss, then who is that guy? So it does make sense that they felt like they're needed to be and that was the question who should be the boss? Well? Right,

this was the conversation who should be the boss? I mean I remember being up in the writer's room and people asking me who I thought should be the boss? And I was like, guys, I don't know, I don't know. Right. They were still trying to get like anybody's opinion, like does anyone have a perspective on this? Well? And I think as a character it was Jim. I mean I think Jim was the most I mean, he was lazy, he was the most well suited to technical levels, should

be promoted to that job? Correct? Right? Yes, in terms of his interaction with people, his ability to lead and sort of inspire people. But I think then that messes up storylines in a way that for sure. Yeah, So I guess you know when you when when we get back to this, it is like, okay, when we need some other force of nature to come in and be the boss of these people so that they can stay being them, right, Yeah, I don't know that was That was tricky, but we made it through and we got

some great episodes that season. Yes, and then we went into season nine where we sort of just didn't have a boss for a while. Remember Andy was our boss, but then he got lost on the boat and then we just sort of we were like, oh, here's an answer. It's an empty office. There's no regional manager anymore. What did you think about bringing the sound man, breaking the fourth wall and bringing Brian onto the show? Was there a conference? There was a major conference, many conferences, conferences.

So for season nine, John and I were producers. We were given those titles because we were brought in to really discuss the Jim Pam arc of the final season, and so we spent a lot of time up in the writer's room talking about all the beats of that

story and what it would be. I did many on camera auditions with various Brian's to be the boom operator, and then many discussions about who exactly it should be there was this one actor who was just phenomenal, who just looked so much like John Krasinski that we had a whole discussion about whether or not he should look too much like John Krasinski, if that would feel like Pam, you know what I mean, and like all this stuff,

and so anyway, I liked that storyline. I thought it was really interesting because another part of season nine was that we were going to release the documentary that you were going to see how it affects these people's lives for them to see themselves in a documentary, And I think that's really great closure for the show as well. Perfect. Yeah, I think it was an underrated ending of the show. I felt like Greg very clearly had a story that he wanted to tell. Yeah, And I think that when

you're live that your anticipation. There's almost nothing that can meet your expectations. But I think if you go back and you watch it, you see just the brilliance of how he tied it all up. Yeah, truly. When did you find out that Steve was coming back for the finale? Did you know early on? I feel like I almost always knew because John and I had been up in the writer's room talking about the finale, and we were

sworn to secrecy. So I feel like I knew for a pretty long time, and I knew that there was a lot of trickery going on that he was not written into the final script. At the final table read, there was a scene between Dwight and Steve, but it was written between Dwhite and Creed, and Creed read the lines at the final table read, and that was because they did not want anyone at the network to know that Steve was coming back. It was a huge secret.

They didn't want NBCPR to like, yeah, to please it yea and to ruin the surprise of Steve being in the finale. Yeah. What's your memory from that were? Do you more laughy or cry? Like in the table reads? Oh? I think I cried a little bit every single day. I was a crier at the table read. I was crying. That was really emotional that last table read. Chris Workman, our camera operator assistant, took a photo of that last table read that Angela has blown up in her house

on her wall. That is fantastic of that last moment right after we said the last line, and then I remember that Pam has the last line of the show, and they had originally scheduled it so that that would be the very last thing we shoot, and I think it was John or some other people said, oh, man, well, we don't all want to be wrapped, and then Jenna has this talking head and Greg said something like, oh yeah, yeah,

we gotta have the last scene be with everybody. And after I finished my talking head, we shot the b roll of me taking the picture off the wall and all of us walking out the door. And we did it, I don't know how many times, five or six, but we would take the thing off the wall and all walk out, and then we would all stand off camera by the elevator, all of us, many of us crammed by this elevator, and there would be this moment where we would wait to see if they were going to

say cut going again or cut that's a rap. I'm getting choked up just thinking about that, because those seconds of waiting, and every time I just wanted them to say cut going again, because I knew when they said that's a rap, that that was a rap. That was it. I'd never shoot the office again. And when they said that's a rap, I just burst into tears and started hugging the closest people that I could find, and it was really it was just really, really crazy and emotional. Yeah,

will you play that. I thought it was weird when you picked us to make a documentary, But all in all, I think an ordinary paper company like dunder Mifflin was a great subject for a documentary. There's a lot of beauty and ordinary things. Isn't that kind of the point to me? That's that's what Greg thinks it was about. That there's a lot of beauty and ordinary things. What do you think it was about, Oh, Greg Daniels, I

think that's what it was about. Yeah, I do. I also, I always thought selfishly, because it was my job to view the show through my character. It's not lost on me that when Pam was ready to break free of dunder Mill when the show ended, So I always kind of thought it was the journey of a girl becoming

a woman, finding herself going out into the world. When we meet her, she's trapped behind this desk and she sort of slowly moves to sales and then finds the man she loves and starts this family, and then when she's really ready, she really fights against leaving and then when she's ready to go, it's all over because the documentary doesn't stop when Michael leaves, so it's not really a documentary about Michael Scott. You know, they decided to

stop making the documentary when Pam leaves. That's so interesting. Do you think The Office could be made today? No, I don't think it could. Why. Well, I don't know if it could be made today. It's a good question. Well, first of all, something I want to point out, or a question I want to ask you is people always ask us if we're all really friends in real life, and I don't even think saying that we're friends in real life accurately communicates how deeply I feel for you

and everybody. It's like a love of family, Like I can't explain it. Do you think if we'd made this show in the age of smartphones and whatnot, that we would be as deeply connected? Like don't you think like the circumstances that's of us being trapped on that set for the first season with no working computers, no phones, no internet, nothing, just a troop of actors and artists trapped in a room for twelve hours a day playing. We ever absorbed ourselves and our phones or emails or

other work or anything. And I think that that lent itself to part of the magic. And I just wonder if if you tried to put us all in a room today, I don't know, wouldn't we just have our phones and our desks? I think that maybe, I don't know, Maybe I think that we for sure. What I think is we were a collective group of people with differing backgrounds and experiences and training. It was like we were an old time theater troupe, yes stuck together. And we

weren't all famous. No, we came from a place of just wanting to do good work. Well. When Lee and I got married, I had invited a girlfriend of mine that I'd gone to high school with from Saint Louis, and she was so excited to come to the wedding and she said, are they're going to be famous people there? You know? And I said, no, not really, We're not really friends with a lot of famous people, you know. And then she's like, well, are the cast members from

the office going to be there. I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, there'll be there, and she was like, well they're famous, and I'm like, oh, yeah, that's right. I forgot. But even now today, I don't think of us that way. I still always think of us as the people in the room before anyone cared or anyone knew who we were totally and so being on that journey together as well, I think really bonded us. But I don't know if we could make the show today. It's really hard to say.

It was such a moment in time. Can you make a show today with total unknowns? I don't know. Silicon Valley kind of, there's other shows. Well, let me ask, why do you think the show is more popular now than it was when WIT was on. My answer is very simple. The show is excellent. It's it is absolutely brilliantly executed, and it holds up because it's just that good. Really. But you know, it's funny. I started this podcast with Angela, Yes,

where we watch an episode of the Office. We started from the beginning and Office ladies, yes, yes, we break it down. This was not my this is not a plug moment. We were about to go there in a minute, but anyway, go ahead. Now. What I was going to say is Angela and I are doing this podcast and we have to watch an episode of the Office, and then we discuss it. So I've been watching the show from the very beginning. Had you watched the show since they aired? No, you had not. I had seen a

few here and there. I had seen the Dinner Party. I had I had been in a trailer on a job and I had a teeny tiny television mounted to the wall of my trailer. It was so small. She's not joking right now. She just held up her fingers and showed three inches. I don't think the tele now, it's more like five inches. It was smaller than a laptop screen. It was very tiny, Okay, and it's so

I was, So that's what she said. I was so tickled by it that I took a picture and I sent it to Steve and John and Ed and Angela and all of us who had been in that scene where we were laughing so hard at Michael's tiny flat screen TV. And then that made me want to watch that episode. So then I went and watched the Dinner Party episode, and then a few examples of things like that where you're flipping through when you an episode comes

on or something like that. But no, I have not seen most of these episodes since they aired, right, So it's been really cool for me. And I have to say, I really get why people are so excited about the show. Like, as I watch it again, I'm really watching it almost as a fan. Yes, And it's weird that I'm on it in some ways. When I'm watching myself, I've always thought it was oh really, Ran, I always thought it

is that a fact. I don't know. But before I started doing that, I was on Greg to do a reunion special or revive the office in some way, selfishly because I just want to work with all you all again, and because I know Steve has a really good idea, and I thought, oh, let's get Steve's idea going. Come on, Greg, come on, Greg, you got to do it. Well. Now that I've been rewatching the show, I wrote Greg and email recently and I said, Greg, Um, I don't think

you should reopen the show. It's it is so perfect just as it is, Like, I don't think we should now. I was such a champion for doing it for so long, and now I'm realizing maybe it's exactly perfect just as it is, and you don't want to have this weird extra seven years later episode that we made. Um, I don't know. Well, see here you do have. Here's the beauty is I have the ability to edit out whatever I say right now. I have no interest in him in doing it in a reunion episode. Yes, but have

you heard Steve's idea. It's a great idea. It is a good idea. What if we did it in Scranton, Brian, what if that's the thing that we come back for, is we shoot an episode finally in Scranton. Steve's idea? All right, Well, I'm tempting you discuss it later. But at the same time, I think the show is just perfect as it is. Although we do have an unproduced episode pet Day. There's one episode of the office called pet Day. Well it wasn't shot that we never shot. Yes,

that's right, I have the script. I have let you do. In fact, I signed scripts, obviously to give away to charities. Yeah, I have a gigantic box, yeah, of scripts that because we would get multiple per week. It was not great for the environment, but we would get more. And they're in my garage in boxes. And I reached in and grabbed one and it was pet Day, pet Day, And I thought, what if I had signed that? And I mean, thank goodness. I looked at what the title was. Yeah,

because that could have been true. I could have gotten in trouble for that. Well. I said to Greg, what if we do a special where we just do a staged reading of pet Day and we all come together and we read pet Day. But wasn't there a reason we didn't do Pet Day? Animal cruelty? I believe was the reason we didn't do pet Day Because there's like some avil bird death in it or something. I can't remembered up having a bird death and a porcupine in Dwight's desk. We did, and Angela throws a cat and

a cat and one gets frozen. And no, there's Greg must not like animals. Is there anything else, anything else that you want covered that you feel like we didn't? I mean, obviously there's so much I know, I know, I don't know you did, you were very good. I

can't think of anything, really. I think something that's really interesting to talk about too, because you talk about how there were like the theater people and the comedians, and then there were the improv people, but there were also all of these ways that we were weirdly connected like that. Phyllis and I both grew up in Saint Louis, as did Ken kuoppas he grew up in Belleville, Illinois, which is basically Saint Louis. And then also our ad Rusty

Mahmud grew up in Saint Louis. So there were four of us Saint Louis AND's. Then there were a bunch of those Boston guys. You've got John and Steve and BJ and Mike scher yep. Then the fact like b J and John went to the same high school, Angela, Ed and I went to the same high school. You and Ed went to the same high school. And Angela and Oscar were in an improv group together, and she walked on set and was like, oh my god, Oscar, you got cast in this. It was a complete shock

to her. She'd done improv with Kate. So there were these ways where we'd all been kind of circling each other in this weird way, and then all finally came together. There were so many coincidences in how we were connected totally. Yes, I remember shooting a scene for webisodes and was in the annex camera on me. I was shooting a talking head and suddenly I saw Ed Helms walking behind the I was like ed, what what are you? And he was there to meet with Greg and about joining the show.

This was between season two and three. Yeah, yeah, it's crazy. Thank you so much. Yeah, I love you, Oh, Brian, I appreciate you coming. I hope this has been some fun. I could talk for hours about our show. I love that you're doing this because I want to hear what everybody says. Yeah, well there you go. I love you, I love you. Thank you. That is a rap on Jenna Fisher here at the office deep dive, Jenna, thank

you so much for sharing your time with us. I mean, look, I didn't want to say this to your face, but I think that we all know Kevin was the real emotional core of the office. I mean, you can keep thinking Pam, but I say it's keV Dog. But you were so great here. I'm gonna let you have it. I'll even forgive the fact that you're a Cardinals Go Dodgers listeners. Thank you so much for joining us, even all your Cardinals fans. And get ready because next week.

Oh it's the big one, folks. It's the big Khona, the big Cheese, the big guy upstairs, Steve Correll. Have a great week. The Office. Deep Dive is hosted and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive producer, Lang Lee. Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer, our associate producer is Emily Carr, and our assistant editor is Diego Tapia.

My main man in the booth is Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by my great friend Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed by Seth o'lansky