Jen Celotta - Pt. 1

I had never thought of it that way, but I realized after he said it that that is so true and and you can totally see Jen's influence on the show. Starting in that second season, Jen wrote some of the most complex, subtle psychological storylines that we ever had, and it was so fun for me to talk about that with her. Um. Jen is also crazy smart and absolutely hilarious, and she has the most infectious laugh, which you will

hear lots of momentarily. Um. But most importantly, she was the only guest who brought me cookies when she came in to talk. That's right, she she brought me cookies. So that officially makes Jen my favorite guest of all time. So ladies and gentlemen, please welcome my friend and soon to be yours, Jen Salata, Bubble and squeak I love it, Bubble and squeak on Bubble and squeaker Cookie every mon lift over from the naty. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, good to see you look the same. I saw you look awesome.

The thing with dudes is they get you get to look better when you get older girls. True, yeah, yeah, it's a problem. It's like some distinguished silver fox gray that happens like girls. Don't you know? Why? Why can't Why can't girls have that? I don't know. I'll try it out. It's just a little just a little side gray. Look you look, God, you do truth speak truth God. Why don't we hang home before? And I think it every time we hang out? That should be microphones, We shouldn't.

We should always accord everything and no laws, just big just big Mike's Um. I just spent some time with Ed Helms, so cool. Yeah, ran out of here to make sure he didn't see you. Seriously, what is all about? You know what's amazing? I was going to maybe tell a sort of embarrassing story that doesn't make him look bad, that makes me totally embarrass about it. I never told on anything. Okay, go, it's totally embarrassing though you're ready, Yes, Okay,

this is embarrassing. Why am I starting with this? But you just mentioned his name is so funny. So um, I can't remember what season this was, but you'll know from what I'm talking about. Uh. I had an idea where Ed was going to sing take a chance on me, and um, I remember I told Greg that idea and he's like, go down and tell Ed, you know, talk to him about it, you know, about the song because

he'll be singing it soon. And I just remember, like, being a fan of Eds from The Daily Show, it was an attractive, interesting, cool dorky, you know, banjo playing dude. So like there was a part of me that was like, oh, this is a cool dude. And I guess I got a little kind of nervous about you know, like I don't know, it's just a tiny bit nervous roun him at first, you know, professional, but just like a little

bit nervous. So I go over and I knock on his trailer door because I have to ask him, you know, do you know this song? And let's talk about this song or whatever. I'm assuming he knows that he knows music. He's Mr Music right knock on his door. He's like, hey, Jen. I was like, Hi, So I had this idea for an episode coming up soon, probably next week. I don't remember this, remembering exactly what, and and I said, it's take a chance on me. And I said, you know

that song? He's like what. I was like, you know that song? He did not know the song. So I had to sing, take a chance on me, do it. I'm the parking lot of the office, and I can't sing. Also, I can't sing, and I'm singing to a singer. Anyway, he was lovely. It was all fine, but it was one of the dorky moments of my life. That's so funny. I never told him that because it was just awkward, because I wouldn't want to be like, I'm nervous around you. But now I'll tell the world. There it is. I

will make sure he hears that story. Um, all right, So you so pre you You came to the office in season two, which basically was when Lee and Gen joined too. You were the new kids. How was that, by the way, coming into that room? It was it was great. It was intimidating. I had been on a bunch of other writing staffs I've been writing for a while, but this I was a huge fan of the show.

I was a huge fan of The British Office, and then I was on Malcolm the Middle and watching The American Office, and I'd watched The Office when it aired. In the next morning, all I talked about at work was The Office. It was delightful for the well I was trying to write Malcolm um and uh. So I was just very intimidated at first, but excited. I felt like there were a lot of shows that I worked on that um, there were a few shows that were

my sensibility. I got to work on Andy Richter Controls the Universe, and got to work on some other, you know, interesting, cool shows. But this show was the first show where I was like, oh God, like the humor and the heart everything about it I just felt like so connected to and also just kind of dryer, subtle humor, dry humor, subtle humor. There were so many things that were appealing to me about it. So I both was incredibly excited and also like, don't funk this up. Um, so let

me rewind a little bit. So you you're on Malcolm in the Middle, and then what happens you You get a meeting with get a meeting with Greg. I was on a development deal actually also with NBC. So I left Malcolm in the Middle. Um, full disclosure. Did not get asked back to Malcolm Middle that will come back. Maybe because I just talked about the office all the time. They were like what the hell? But um, yeah, so

I left. I had a meeting with Greg. I met him at a coffee bean somewhere, just desperately wanted to be on the show. Had a fantastic meeting, loved him instantly. Had There was a very pregnant pause in my interview with him of just it felt like it was like five minutes long, but I'm not quite sure. It was just him sort of kind of putting his hand on his forehead and looking down and I'm like, I don't know if this is I have no idea which way this is going, because like I think it was going well,

but I don't really know. And there's a long pause, and then he was like, hey, do you want to you want to join the staff. I think a lot of it probably to Gregg's later Dismay is that when he was silent for a little while, just trying to process or think about things or who knows what, I didn't speak, then surprise, surprise, I wouldn't shut up once you hired, right, And I can tell you a funny

story about that as well. I yeah, no, So I I felt so aligned with the office before, just even as a fan, and I noted we made some there were some changes, and we did some tweaking the things going into season two, which made it even more maybe in my wheelhouse of kind of heart and you know, rooting for Krall and kind of finding the underbelly of his character and stuff like that. But season one, I was just a huge fan. So right, so waits well,

so many things. First of all, so what I've been told was that Greg, in consultation with the network and blah blah blah, he needed to soften Steve first season two, that Kevin Riley was very happy with what had happened, but that people watching it was actually something that you

want in television, and so he Greg came in. It will be interesting to hear your perspective on this, because you weren't a writer before, but that Greg was the one who pushed for Steve being softened, and that there was everyone else who was in the room, and a writer at the time felt like, no, you're going to

kill the show. Oh that's fascinating. I could. I do have thoughts on it, even though I wasn't there, um, because I think that depending on how you interpret soften, it could sound like something that could be very threatening to the show. And it could for me because I know what it ended up being. I'll explain why. I think it was a great decision. But I remember we were early on in season two talking about how do we do this, and a lot of people had great ideas.

I just remember specifically, Um, I had talked to my dad, who's a physicist. To come from a very kind of nerdy door them family a physicist and the psychologist and the mechanical engineers, my brother and my dad was in UH had to high level position where he ended up having to fire people. And I remember him telling me about firing people from the point of view of a boss, that it's like you always are thinking about the person

who gets fired, because that's the person you're sympathizing with. Right, of course, you're going to tell a story you would sympathize with the person who's being fired. I remember my dad's saying, it's very kind of lonely, weird thing, you know, and you're having to make a decision that's affecting another person and it's really difficult. And sort of the extension of that with having Michael Scott, who just like you, guys are his family and if you have to get

rid of one of you, it's devastating. It was just sort of an interesting way to see things that affect him, but to understand and feel for him, do you know what I mean? I think I think it's the feeling for him and seeing the underbelling and seeing the why of what he's doing, as opposed to what I think was a very common network note often which is makes

someone more likable. And I think that if you take that for what it sounds like, just make somebody more likable, it feels like you're taking all the character and everything away and you're just softing them into this benign mush of human which would like imagine Correll having to play somebody just you know, that couldn't have any edges, that

couldn't do outrageously ridiculously bad things. Right, well, and I think we're What Greg ultimately said was that for the episode, it would play the same way that he could still do this behavior. He could still be an idiot, he could still be insensitive, but then just find just a moment, tiny moment at the end that where you see this other side of him and actually you talked about um

firing someone. And there's the Halloween episode and again that last moment you just see him giving out the candy to the kids and just humanizes him in a way where you understand like there's a kind of a man who's alone and he's given out candy. He's got the sweet part of him. Yeah, I agree, I can understand. We had more arguments in that room than almost any other room I've ever been in, and they were, like I always say, it was like a healthy marriage where

you're supposed to fight. They're supposed to be fighting. It's safe and we love each other, but we would fight. And I just think it's because we all gave a ship. It's like we really really cared. I've been in rooms where everybody just sits there and kind of you know, wait, still time to go home more, And this was not that everybody cared desperately about everything. Yeah, um, do you think being a woman and only you and Mendy were women at the time, writers, do you feel like, well,

first of all, how was that for you? You know, I always feel like in this I'm supposed to be saying more than I do, or I'm reevaluating how I felt all the time, But I didn't think about it like I just I. I don't know. I'll talk with

the office specifically in a second. But I've been so incredibly fortunate in my career to work worth incredibly evolved men, and I feel like, yes, I always wish there were more women and more diversity in every staff always, that is always something that I wanted and wished for and asked for. But I did feel uncomfortable in any way. Um, I just felt very blessed and lucky. Again, it's on me.

It's it's certainly in the later days to try to incorporate and bring in other people and make rooms more diverse. But um, I didn't have that feeling. And certainly when I got there, Mindy was there, and so I felt like and there were maybe I don't remember now, six of us, seven of us, and you know, so there were two women out of seven, and I knew she was incredibly talented and just loved working with her. But

um no, I didn't. I had a didn't continue. I feel like it should have occurred to me more than it did, and it didn't. So that's how I feel a responsibility to other ladies, you know, to just sort of go back and you know, think of things. So I certainly have had female friends that have had more, you know, because I was the only woman on maybe

three staffs that I've been on. And even in those situations, again, yes, I would always like to have the more voices in the room and the more diverse the voices are in the room. The beat of the show is just is so it always should be that way. But on the shows when I was coming up there, guys that I worked with were fantastic and I didn't I didn't feel uncomfortable. Yeah, so Greg has talked about or this quote was attributed

to him or something like it. Um, Mike sure said that that Greg talked about wanting to create a writer's room that was like the X Men, right, so that not everybody had a special skill that was the same. So, Um, what I have been told is and let's see if you agree with that. Lee and Jean Um were very good at the cringe comedy, that Mike was more optimistic, that Mendy was more absurdist, but also tied into um some of the love stuff. Paul was very into Michael's

worst instincts Um. And then you, I was told one you were very into Pam and sort of the beating heart of the show. And then Greg wasn't sure about that. He said, you were very interested in Michael's stories and finding the complexity there. What's funny is that the episode that was reference for both of those two things from Mike sure and from Greg was the same episode where

the bird dies. Whereas Greg saw that as being about Michael and him having to find a way to deal with it, and Mike saw that as about Pam and Pam making the decision to facilitate the funeral for Michael. Oh my gosh. Interesting that they referenced the same episode but came up with two different responses. Do you feel like, what was your superpower? What interested you? What's a mate that is fast nating? And I can see how they

both could say that. What's interesting to me is that for me, it's understanding the humanity of a person and the levels of a person and the psychology of a person. To me, it was very much Michael that you know, it was not the Pam element um in that I love Pam and Michael's connection. I love their relationship, But for me, it was steering Michael through that sort of the stages of grief. I never got to write internal stories where something kind of was happening to the insides

of a character. And I was like, this is a story on a network television show that is an internal story where the character that it's happening to is not even aware of it. Like I was, like, my brain was exploding. So I kind of feel like they're both They're both right in a way where it's like but with that particular episode was Michael. I had this moment with Steve when I was leaving the show and I

told him, Um, it was very, very difficult decision. Was the best job I ever had, by far, but I was starting to feel like I wanted to write some of my own stuff, and and I told Greg and then I told Steve, and you know, I'm sad. I'm really upset. I mean it was like the best opportunity of my life. And he said, I think this is

going to be difficult for you. I said, oh yeah, you know why I could tell something he was saying something else, and he said, because I think you work out a lot of your own stuff through my character. Oh god, Michael Scott thinks I'm Michael Scott. I mean he meant it. He didn't mean it as a bad thing, but he just even just earnest and genuine in it. And like I was like, why can't I be Pam? Why can't I be Anu? Why can't it be Phyllis? Why can't I'll no, But I mean I endure, I endore.

Michael said, He's not wrong. There are moments in my life. I'm very intrigued with his character. But there are also moments in my life where I feel Michael Scotty and I think everyone does. But I thought that was unbelievable. That is so amazing, and and there's a sweetness to it.

Because I've told some people that and they're like, oh, but Michael, you love Michael, and you know he's he's connected and he loves But like I immediately went to the most ridiculous signs of Michael, Like, there was a moment after it where I thought of him, where I was trying. I had to type up an email that I was gonna have to send as soon as I got home. I was, oh, God, this is terrible to stay.

I was on side. I was at a stoplight and I had my computer open, and I was like typing, because if you have finished typing it the second I got home, I was going to send it. And I just imagined like a cop pulling me over with my laptop. I mean, the drivers I'm driving and I've got my laptop open, and he's like, ma'am you know, and I'm like, I'm not texting. I'm not texting, I'm emailing. There are definitely moments where I'm like, I think, maybe I am.

But that's so amazing degree on a long journey there to that. But uh yeah. But I'm fascinated with what makes people tick and the layers underneath people. And I feel like writing for me is about connecting. I think there's so many things that people think are just themselves, and when you see it on screen, you feel like kind of comforted forgetting. Maybe that's just me as Michael scotten me. You're just comforted that other people are like

that too. So the stuff inside that you don't get to see is what I like to try to bring out or show, even if they're not saying it's happening. There's something that came up and talking with Greg that I did not know. Um, it was very clear Greg wanted a collaboration, and he wanted the lines between the writers and the actors to be blurred, and he wanted it to be much more collaborative. I was aware that was happening, and I was aware that it felt very

different than any other show. But I think for me it was always about really about the writers. That it was about the writers were acting, and the writers had

sort of an unfettered access to set. Um. Greg told me that his idea was not that his idea was to blur the lines between the writers and the actors because he felt that in this new genre the laughs were about behavior, that there was there was something for him that he needed the actors, for the writers to see the actors because behavior was way more important in this kind of a show than in traditional That's fascinating.

I agree with that. I don't think I ever sort of felt it as that was what was happening, like kind of what you're saying. But I do think that anytime you try to part of me just thinks that blurring the lines just makes it a happier environment. Because it always felt like the writers were on the shows I worked on, the writers were off, and then the actors were off, and there was absolutely no crossover, and you didn't feel like you were part of a family

together with each other like they'll be. There are shows where I didn't even go down to the set. You know, you'd never saw the show. You know, you never saw the actors act, And I just think it's always better if you kind of mush the two together. I think that it's kind of starting to create a character and then working with the actor to see what they do

with it and how they make it. There's that kind of thing I feel like, And then when you have a specific story about a specific character going down and kind of getting to know them enough so that you can infuse it so much with the goodness and the

specificity of you guys is such a big thing. I guess I never really thought of it exactly that way what he's saying, but I I do think that if you think about this show being really needing to be real, imagining the worst case of what would have happened if if what Greg was saying wasn't true, is that writers would be in a room coming up with these weedy one liners that were not based at all in what a human being would do and the specific human being.

So that if you go down and to the set down whatever we were a couple of minutes stories of like and then work with them and and more listen to them and see how they would get from point A to point B in a realistic way, it'll feel more real and more rich. Then if you're just like, ha ha, this is a funny joke, you're like the worst kind of writing where you're like, here's a funny joke, and we'll just give this joke to somebody, you know,

without really taking into consideration, but packing live. Um, why was writing the character so real so important for me? Because it was a mockumentary. I've found that a lot of the a lot of discussions we'd have we're about comedy versus reality, So we had these discussions a lot. I think we had them even camera wise. Um, we also had a lot of moments we were talking about Michael and Jan unbelievable relationship, so funny when once we got to the point where he seemed like he was

almost evolving past her. That moment we had so many fights in the room because we and the fights seemed to be comedy versus mockumentary, but like reality versus comedy. It felt to me like if we were doing a mockumentary documentary, if we're leaning into that, we would want

this character of Michael Scott to keep growing. If we're just thinking with our comedy glasses on, Jane is Jan and Michael are hilarious, right, So there's this tension of should we keep him stuck in this relationship because we can mind it for ridiculous humor, or should we evolve him? So I always lean to the point of evolving. I just start as a viewer with that particular show, disconnecting a little if I feel that somebody is stuck in a thing that would not be stuck in real life,

do you know what I mean? And I think the audience feels that too, they feel like they're being jerked around, And then I think you have it more with Michael and with the Jim and Pam. We had those discussions most with those characters. Everybody, we wanted to evolve or see different shades of or have them go through journey. Sometimes sometimes they go forward, sometimes they go backwards, but

we'd want to see some amount of movement. But specifically, the biggest fights were even Michael's evolution because it was so central to what we were seeing, and also with Jim and Pam. So I remember those fights. I remember, and I remember being like, oh no, we need to at some point, we can't break It felt fake to break Jim and Pam up once. Once. It was those characters set up by Greg and the early writers and then acted by John and Jenna in such a ridiculously

beautiful way. I didn't believe that the threats that we were talking about that could come in to keep them apart so that we could kind of have more of that juice. It just didn't. Yeah, So I um, I've talked to a few people about this, just about comedy too, And I had this director that I worked with, and he was obsessed with the notion that comedy exists off of the beat. But Greg said something that you were

just talking about which is kind of the same idea. Actually, you guys both said it in different ways, but about Pam and Jim, that there becomes an inevitability. And so what Greg said was the choice ultimately was get him together. Actually sooner than anyone thinks, right, so suddenly, like it happens sort of in an instant, so fast on one second you think he's going to be the manager at another branch, and then one second later it's do you want to go on a date? And then they're off

and rolling. That's so pure Greg. He's such a genius. And what I love is he did that multiple times. He would we would come up with an idea or something, and he would advance it to to have that surprise factor. And what I loved about him was that he had the confidence and the skills clearly obviously to take that risk of doing something earlier than what was expected and knowing that we would be able to deal with the fallout of like together. You know, um and I can't

quite remember. I just can't remember. There was a season that we ended on a cliffhanger. We wrote ourselves a little bit into a corner and then we're just like, I don't know, like never point guess what, we have eight weeks after this to figure it out. But I love that because it's daring and it's brave and it's not like waiting till the last second and waiting till

it all has it planned out. So there's like a thrill in terms of being a writer and story when you have Jim and Pam get together before you think, then you have to deal with all the repercussions of that quicker and it's scary, but that's there's a thrill about that. It's exciting. Right, I'm gonna go back a second, because you were so articulate in your idea of of truth and comedy that no one has explained to me before.

I know that there was a discussion about this and way way less significant then you know how long Michael should stay with jan or the Jim and Pam thing. But when Dwight plays a prank on Holly and tells her that Kevin is slow, and everyone was like, we gotta keep this going, we gotta keep this going. But that actually you sort of saying that story for that joke too. That was my joke ahead, which I think

you'll find you'll appreciate well. But just my point was that at a certain point in terms of truth versus comedy, like, at what point does it become unbelievable that Holly doesn't really know the truth. So that that just occurred to me as you were talking, like oh, I get that, yeah, that you're trying to find It ended up pretty quickly. But it's because there's a reality and a believability and the audience feels it. I feel like it's not all

day is that they know exactly what it is. But I feel like there are certain things about that show particular that if you went in a different direction, it can distance the audience. I mean one of the classic things is that you know, if hair starts looking too good and makeup and wardrobe and the lights look too beautiful, it's like you're starting to feel a distance between these people. So I feel like there was a reality that you

wanted to keep. Um just thinking about that joke, h the backstory to that, there was a point in the show where I think it was coming from like Greg just feeling like, you know, probably doing twenty eight episodes of season, but it was like we're getting lazy, We're getting lazy. We we know this about this character. We know this about this character. What else do we know about this character? So we did it for many, many

of the characters. I think all of them probably, but I was specifically remember we were like, what do we know about Kevin? We know that he likes to snack, we know that he's maybe not the brightest accountant that we have. Right, So it's like, if we're lazy, go to these things too often? Right, So you know, in the ven diagram of all the things we know about Kevin or whatever, what are some more things like does he like opera? Would that makes sense for though we

know about Kevin? I mean literally we did this for multiple characters. But this was the moment that I remember being in there, right when I was about to go off and write a script. And so I went off. In my interpretation of that was just to take one of those two things to blow it up. Like I I did definitely try to reach deeper, because he was

saying like, go bigger, go deeper, find more. So now I took it all the way to the part where it was like, yeah, Kevin is like, you know, mentally slow, and there's a real there's a real issue here, and that's Holly's interpretation of it. And when I did it, I think I did it as a joke. It definitely was one joke in the script. It might have been two. And then I brought it back to the room and they're like, no, no, no, we're doing more, more and more.

So we expanded it. But I just I was a little bit delighted its last, embarrassed about the fact that my goal was to find something different. I just doubled down on maybe not right. Well, I don't know. It always made me laugh. It always made me laugh. Um, was there anything else that was specific or unique? Do you remember about this writing room? Writer's room? It was the best writer's room I've ever been in. Uh, and I feel like it will be the best writer's room

I'm ever in. I think the writers were exceptionally talented, and Greg was saying that everybody had their own super strength, but everybody was good at story and comedy and and motion. I felt that certain people, yeah, we're gifts, more gifts, more gifted in certain areas. But I've worked on staffs where one person was story, one person was comedy. There was a little bit more like that, and I felt like this staff everybody had the ability to do everything,

and the fact that everybody cared so much. There was an enormous discussion. I don't know if anybody talked about it between whether the proposal should have sound or no sound. There were people on both sides. It was about fifty fifty. It was the craziest discussion. It was whether or not. When we saw Jim proposed to Pam we should have sound and hear what he's saying, or just see the visual of him in the rain getting on one knee, and I found that that really explained the writer's room.

Everybody cared so much. There was one moment where Greg was getting into his car, you know, after the discussion had gone on for a month and we were about to, you know, have to settle on it, where I was coming from a trailer and he was getting into his car and I said Greg, and he like turned and he was like kind of trapped between his car door in his car, and I was like, did you make did you decide yeah it was sound or no sound,

And he's like, no, no, I haven't, I haven't. It was literally a horror film stalking him to find out if the decision had been made. Um, we argued passionately, and it's just because everybody cared. And I think that, um, a lot of it was just for the passion with which the passion everybody had for telling the story. I can talk a little bit about the sound. No sound if you want to hear it, but you might hear

it from everybody else. Go ahead. UM, So that was actually a decision a little bit that I feel like came down to another discussion that we had a lot of times in the room, which was kind of being more documentary and a little bit more real and a little bit more subtle and being a little bit more like a comedy or a show. So uh, basically, the side that wanted to hear Jim's words were like, you've

been waiting forever to hear him propose to Pam. Why would you take that moment away from people and not hear his actual words. It's like they've been waiting for it. You want to give them what they've been waiting for. Just might be slightly more of a comedy show kind of thing with a documentary mockumentary thing. It was a little bit more of like, God, it's so beautiful and subtle and to be across the street and I have to reach for it because he would turn his mic

off in this moment, it's a big moment. And once you see him down on one knee, we know what he's saying. And then actually filling in the blank is more beautiful. We went back and forth about this for so long. At one point, um Greg asked me to send in my pros and cons list, like sounded, no sound, And then I remember I was in his office a

little bit later. We didn't still had made a decision, and I saw a list of people who wanted sound and a list of people who wanted no sound, and his wife and two kids was on one side of the list and two other kids or his wife and one kids on Once I listened to other kids. His family was split down the middle. So he was interviewing everybody and saying what should we do? What should we do?

Um So there was a moment he was at the sound mix we were he had to make the decision, like this is the moment, and he's like, is there anybody we haven't asked? Is there anybody we haven't asked? And I said, oh, yeah, the security guard is there, you know security guard whose name I can't quite remember him. Sorry, but I go and I get the security guard and it occurs to me during my walk to the office that he's never seen the office. The lovely, lovely man

protected us all. So I'm like, okay, cool. So now we've just got a very objective person. So I show him the scene without sound, and then I show him the scene with sound, and I say, what did you prefer? And he said I liked the second one. And I said why He said, oh, because I could hear it. Okay, Greg, he said he like the second one because he could

hear it. So that was anyway, that wasn't what how the decision was made, but that was our last person weighing in, and then you know, it ended up airing with sound. But um, but it was the debate about whether or not it should be sound or no sound was the writer's room. To me, it was everybody incredibly passionate about something that we had worked towards, UM and just we've we cared. Well. It's fascinating to me. Um, when Steve left and Pam goes to say goodbye, there's

no sound. You know, it's weird. I saw it. I loved it. I just got chills when you even just described it because it's it's such a beautiful moment and I don't know if it speaks to there's a secret dynamic between Pam and Michael that we just can't be

privy to. I don't know, but it's a similar kind of moment, right, I mean, it's like, maybe, do you think it's possible that because the other one involved Jim and Pam and there were so many people like rooting for that relationship and kind of squeeking or whatever about them that you couldn't take that moment away from them. But for Pam and Michael, who have an incredibly special dynamic too, it's not a like romantic thing. So it's not like fans have been shipping them for four years

and we can do that. I don't know. I really don't know because I don't know. But it's it's interesting because what you say is how people fill it in that moment when Michael leaves. You can't write it. It's written with Pam telling you what was said, but did she include every detail? And what she says is beautiful, but you don't I don't know. It's it's so interesting. I like when you so, I on the staff, like

when you have to fill in the blanks more. I think when in Casino night we were we had another huge fight on staff about, you know, how to portray something, whether to make Jim and Pam in the parking lot more you know, dirty or not. And I was always I didn't want to miss everything. I just wanted to be late to the party, or find the shadow of them and to hear them talking, to not see it the cleanest, to not be very clean in terms of the presentation. I always wanted to reach, because I think

reaching and filling the blanks is more. But I was probably on one end of the spectrum in that room with those things. Well, Greg brought up both of those moments, and I think, and I'm certainly not coming down on one side or the other. I think that I would tend to agree with you that I loved that moment when Michael leaves. I think it's perfect. But it's interesting

what Greg said in that moment in the parking lot. Specifically, he said, these are really skilled actors and you can see a lot in their faces, and so in this moment, we need to see their face. Oh, that's brilliant and that makes a lot of sense. Like I understand that, I completely get that. There was an interesting discussion and it wasn't um that came up that I forgot to mention when we were talking about sounds no sound and I was talking to my dad about offensive and defensive

decision making. I mean, we were just digging deep in this sound really sounds like they're digging deep. And what I learned too, and this is where I know that sometimes I'm on the super kind of weirdo end of the spectrum, is that with offensive, you just do what's your gut instinct and what's your best thing that you think you should do, and you don't worry about anything else any other factors. With defensive, that I think is an important ing, but I don't pay attention to it enough.

Is what do the fans want? What will feel satisfying? Will I regret? You just kind of go outside? Do you know what I mean to think about you think about the audience a little bit more so in terms of the moment, specifically for Jim and Pam. Are we thinking what do we want to do kind of artistically, show wise, character wise, or are we thinking what do people want? You joined the staff in season two when the show was still well, we didn't know how many

we were gonna do. Um, And so the question really is what factors do you think helped to make the show? From the beginning of season two getting a six episode order, two by the end, completing a full twenty two episode season, and then immediately getting a third season. Were there any factors that you can point to for what was happening?

I think a lot of it, and I've forgotten sort of the behind the scenes people fighting for it because I feel like Ben Silverman, a lot of people just fought very hard for things that I wasn't privy too. I was just coming on to try and you know, right, but I know that there are a lot of people fighting very hard for the show. Um. I think a couple of things. I think one was just reattacking Correll's character and just giving it more dimensions, just giving it

more of a three and sixty degree feel. I think. I think, Um, well, there was another sort of significant thing that happened, which I don't expect you to remember, but iTunes launch. Yes, yes, so, um, I remember going and getting a computer around that time and seeing the Apple Store just had the office everywhere. So yeah, so iTunes launching huge. Yeah, so then people could just you know,

download it and watch it. And then it started to feel like people were watching it, Like I think b J had this thing he said that it felt like it was an inside joke with our fans, like like like we didn't know that a lot of a ton of people were watching it. We just kept meeting some people who were fans and they were going crazy for it. So I don't know if the numbers were necessarily reflected right away. And I also remember Jenny Tan from Office Tally and I remember Jenna was like on my Space

talking to fans. So I think the communication with the fans and and other ways for people to watch the show. And I also think deleted scenes started really helping us too, is that people were getting bonus material and they were really excited about that. And I don't know when quite that was, if that was a little bit later or Yeah. It's this whole sort of wave of technology that was kids meant for the show. That people have been able to use the new technology that existed in the moment

sort of at the perfect time for the office. Yeah. Yeah, I remember us going on office tally at the end of every episode to see like what the fans thought. That was just really like live time, kind of like reviews of the show by the people who watched it, and it was just fascinating. How much did that influence the writers its debt? We definitely felt it, I don't think, but you should ask other people because I don't remember.

I don't remember it ever affecting any like storylines or changes, but I think that it was a barometer for certain things. You know, if we were slowing down Pam and Jim and everyone was like, I like the fact that it's slow, we would, you know, like we we might not feel the pressure of it as much. So I feel like there were little things like that, But it was never like, oh, they want this, so we have to give it to them, do you know what I mean? But there was a

moment and you should you have to confirm this. Um. We would have little debates in the room and then I remember we would read the fans and every once in a while the fans would comment on something that we, you know, like should we do proposal sound or no sound? And then fans would day like someone would be like I wish there was no sound or which would be weird because like, how would they even know. But there was one little debate and I cannot remember what it was,

but it was small. It was a small debate, but it was passionate as most things, and I think that Lee was on one side of the debate and I was on the other side of the debate. And after the episode aired, somebody on Office Telly said something that was just, you know, totally agreeing with like how Lee felt and not agreeing at all with what I felt. And I was like, that's a bump or whatever. A few weeks or months later, I found out that Lee was that person he wrote into Office tallion or a

fake name, just writing it. This was like the original burner accounts existed in the Office writers throw you just confirmed this with Lee, But I'm sure he did it. I think he was just doing it to give me ship, because like he disagreed with me, and he's like, look, even the fans dis agree with you. I was like, wait, what fun? This is not cool? He said. I really thought people like the drug desting episode, did anyone like you or there's just you guys, it was like, is

anybody here not in the writer's room? Is azing? I was aware. I mean as an actor, I typically chose to not read it because because one, it's just not it's just not helpful. And too it's the old thing where if fifty people say nice things about you and then one that we got that, then it's like, I don't know, that's my comedy writerness or my jewishness, although I don't know what it is. But yeah, people say something nice and one person is something wrong. It's like,

what is that? Why did they say that? That must be true? I don't know. Immediately forget all the other ones. Yeah. Um, By the way, this our conversation today, which I think is going really really well, so I realized I can take a pause. Here are people in the booth and nobody will ever know. I like, no, but I like keeping our conversation going. Tell you a story about someone who didn't like the office that I had this funny

exchange I was. I was on a plane early on season three or four, had a dunder Mifflin sweatshirts getting off the plane where the pilot was saying thank you for flying, and he was an older man. I saw my dunder Mifflin sweatshirt. He's like, what is that? What is that? And I said dunder Mifflin. I was like, oh, it's dunder Mifflin. He's like, I know what that is. It's the Office. And I like something in his tone and I didn't didn't be like, yeah, I'm working on

is my favorite however, I love it. He's like, I don't like that show. I was just like, and he's just venting. By the way, there's people stacking up behind me trying to exit the plane. He goes, I'm so stressed on a day to day basis. Everything stresses me out. Everybody I work with stresses me out. I don't want to come home and feel that people are stressed out about where they work, like is blood pressure was like going through the room and and I was like, Okay,

have a good day. And I was so grateful that he had landed. The plane got really tense, and I for everybody who's loved it, I mean I have. I think the Office has got more fans than anything. I just want to go talk to University of Michigan. And I had a line of people afterwards that were just like a hundred people who just wanted to say what the show meant to them and how excited they were. Anyway,

that always sticks in my brain. If this guy just seeing the words dunder Mifflin, his blood pressure went off because he doesn't like uncomfortable humor, he doesn't like crane humor, and he must have seen particularly uncomfortable episode where people were frustrated. Right well, I mean one of the things that I've always said was that it has a subversive

quality that I think appeals potentially to younger people. I had a conversation with my parents very similar to to your pilot story where they were talking about their friends whodn't who didn't like It's just too mean and Michael's God is just too mean? And here was my answer.

My answer was, you know, what's the the actual number one show in television at that time was um, you know through all the demographic however, all you are was c s I this is true, I said, so, mom, this is what you should should say to them, is it's way more comfortable for you to watch which every episode opened with a half naked dead woman or teenager lying in the desert and to hear somebody say something potentially a little uncomfortable or maybe hits a little too

close to think long and hard about that challenge. That yeah, it's amazing. All right. That is it for now, guys. But that is just the tip of the iceberg with Jen, just the tip. We didn't even get to the fact that she went on to run our show with Paul Lieberstein in season five. So we will have a lot more to talk about with Jen in a future episode.

In the meantime, thank you all for listening, and let's let's take a page out of Jen's book this week, all right and try to laugh just a little bit more. I'll see you next week. The Office. Deep Dive is hosted an executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner alongside our executive producer Lang Lee. Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer, Our associate producer is Emily Carr, and our assistant editor is Diego Tapia. My main man in the booth is

Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by great friend Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed by seth Olandsky h