I always say like shows are like kids. I have no children, So this is as close as I can get to the analogy in that the oldest show is like having a kid who's left the house and has gone to college or is so when there's an emergency, when there's a real issue, you check in. Yeah, you celebrate birthdays, you know it's correct. You make yourself available
for whatever's necessary. But honestly, you you spend a lot of time lauding them for their thriving survival in Hi, I'm Betsy Beers and I make television.
Hi, everybody, you found us. If you were looking, you have found us. We are off the beat and I am your host. Brian Bamgartner. I'm very excited about today's gat. You know, usually we talk to actors, or we talk to athletes, sometimes musicians, but today I'm talking to a powerhouse in television. She is the force behind many of your favorite shows.
She is Betsy Beers.
Now she's not the face you see on screen, but she is someone whose work you know and I promise you love. She is the producing partner of Shonda Rhymes. And even though Shonda's name is the one in the title of Shonda Lant. Betsy has always been right beside her from day one on Grey's Anatomy. She's also executive produced Private Practice, The Catch, Scandal for the People, How To Get Away with Murder Station nineteen Bridgerton, Inventing Anna,
and Upcoming The Residence. She is amazing and you are going to love what she has to say today. Before she was the other half of the Shondaland Empire, she brought you some of your favorite indie classics like Safe Passage with Susan Sarandon, Two Hundred Cigarettes with Ben Afflack and Kate Hudson, High Fidelity, The Hoax, Just Chef's Kiss to all of it. And apart from her amazing body of work, she has an amazing story to tell as well, from studying to be an actor to realizing maybe it
wasn't her calling to where she is today. This is a fascinating conversation for me. I know it will be for you as well. Here she is the incredible Betsy bears.
Bubble and Squeak.
I love it, Bubble and Squeakano.
Bubble and Squeaker, cook it every move from the Nuo.
Hi Betsy, Hi, Hi Brian, how are you.
I'm peachey. It's a Monday after holiday, and I'm peachee.
You said it was a Monday after the holiday. I just I don't want to scare you. It's tuesday.
Oh no, oh no, I did it again.
It's tuesday.
It's the last weekend. Oh no?
Was it?
Was?
It a good weekend?
It was lovely. Thank you for asking. It was actually relatively relaxing and relatively planned free, which sometimes is the best thing personally for me. I just it was. It was. It was pretty chill, which was good. How about you.
That's good.
Mine was the opposite, actually, and I'm with you. I like I like your I think I had ree barbecues in three days, my lord, I know well, and of course I end up having to cook no matter, none of them were at my house, yet I still somehow managed to be behind the grill. But it was it was nice. I mean, I appreciate you taking the time. I'm glad you had a relaxing weekend.
You are well.
You're you're the busiest woman is showbiz. I think well, and have been for a long time.
You know, you get in less trouble if you stay busy. Right, Yeah, we're very, very fortunate to be busy and happily working and all that other kind of good stuff. So it's, uh, yeah, it's it's been a little aerobic, and you know it's good. Everyone's well, just to sit and stare into space and walk the.
Dog, that's right, you know.
Well, that's that's why I cook. That's because then I don't have to think about anything else.
Exactly.
My husband does all the cooking, and that's partially why he cooks. Is he just just like I'm going to stand here and cook and y'all can greu what heck you want to talk about?
All right, Well, we have a lot to talk about today, I know, I know. Just don't get nervous. It's fine. Just think of it this way. It's my this is me auditioning you. Okay, that's all it is. So don't get nervous.
Just as I don't have to do like an up tempo and a ballot. I'm fine.
Oh here's here's the thing. It's just like they say, when you're auditioning.
I want to like you, so I want I want I want to think that you're right for this, Betsy. So don't don't be nervous. There's no reasons.
Okay, that's good. Okay. Yeah.
Well, and I understand after my extensive research team and myself did some research on you. You you you started out acting. We're going to talk about that in a minute. But you you grew up in Massachusetts. No, no, no, I.
Grew up to Long Island.
There you go.
Okay, where's that correct team? Right now?
That's what I There you go.
It's a it's a common mistake. Ran, it's a common mistake.
I love, okay, because you went to you went to Milton there, the boarding school in Massachusetts, but you came from Long Island. I was just there roundabouts last week, beautiful area of the country. Tell me a little bit about you growing up there on Long Island? Are you interested in as a as a kid?
I was interested in mainly acting. Actually, Like I grew up. To give you some backstory, my father was an agent. He was older when he had me. He died when I was pretty young, but I had a number of formative years with him where we spent a lot of time at home. My mother was working. He happened to be there, and a lot of what I learned in terms of how to identify people read, came from city with him and watching television or reading books about plays
because he was a theater agent. Okay, And so from a really early age, it seemed like the only thing that was interesting was acting. I liked that, and I liked reading, and I liked badminton weirdly because we had a badminton.
That and I really long. That's a long island thing, right, I don't know.
Man, I don't know. Like I think it was the only thing we could fit in the yard, right, you know? It was like so, and I loved to torture my sister by following her around too is my older sister, and desperately trying to get involved in every single thing she was doing, which of course meant that she would figure out jobs for me to do, like pick up dog poop and that's what, So, this is your job?
You wanted to help so long, within a way of saying, like, very very early on, I thought, wow, acting must be great because my dad loves them and they're on TV and they seem to be good. Well do you know about that too? Since you're on TV?
Well, I mean I get I get a little bit about why that would be attractive for people.
You But so when did you start? When did you go to boarding school? Is this your board?
I went to boarding school. Now, it wasn't like Dickensie and I was five type thing.
Okay, it was.
I went to boarding school when I was about fourteen thirteen fourteen. It was my sophomore year in high school. So my school, my elementary school, finished in ninth grade and then you either had to go off to a high school or go way to boarding school. So both my sisters went to boarding school. A lot of the people at the school went to boarding school, so it was not it was not a you know, incredibly untoward or unknown thing to me because I'd watched both sisters go off.
And do it. Right. Do you do?
You do you feel like that being on your own early? Was there an independence thing that you gained there? And partly I'll tell you why I asked because because I didn't go to boarding school, but I did go to this program between junior and senior year of high school where I went to Northwestern.
University for oh wow, eight.
Weeks or something and was studying theater there. And I was like, probably too young to do that, but I was like, oh wow, like, this is what it means to like be on my own. And even I remember, you know, taking is at the l right, taking it in from from Northwestern into the city. I saw a baseball game, like on my own. It's like, wait, this doesn't happen at home. There's there's just sort of a level of independence you have just just by having that space. I feel like you you begin to do things on
your own a little bit earlier. You think that's true.
Can I ask you a question, did you ever go to camp? I did, yes, because camp was sort of like the starter kit in a way, Like I went away to camp. I went to a sleepway camp, and yeah, it's like boarding school. There there were house mothers and there are people in charge and stuff. But it was definitely the first time I was really away from home and I sort of understood that, yeah, your your whole life and sort of personality and the way you reacted
wasn't solely dependent on your home situation. Because I know, like for me, I ended up loving camp and I loved boarding school. I think it was a wise thing at a particular point for me to get out of the house. It just it was there was more for me to explore and more to do. And at that stage of the game, both my sisters, who were older were out of the house and I was alone with my mother.
So it's you know, which God bless her understanding here?
Yes, yes, you.
Might, you might, you might know what that that feels like. So, yeah, it was. I found boarding school to be the most amazing, delightful experience ever. And I I think I found a lot of my own confidence there. I don't know if you felt that way by going to your Stinton Northwestern, but I really started to develop my own voice, I really started to understand what and I had a great education.
Milton is a great school, and you know, I think it was just this amazing exposure to all this all these different areas of study and people who were both the same and different, and it was I loved. I loved the experience. I found incredibly liberating.
Yeah.
Uh, you go to Williams College, prestigious, Williams prestige college. Uh and and you studied acting there. So at this point, is this what you.
Want to do? You want to you want to be repped by your dad or whatever, and you want to be an actor.
Well, my father, unfortunately died to get out, clearly, clearly, to get out of repping me. I think we should just we should just make it clear.
I made it.
I made it. I made a choice, and you know what, it failed.
Sorry, you know it, and it didn't fail. It just was a choice. It's fine. And you couldn't comprol whether he died or not. What are you freaking psychic?
No, no, no, that wasn't in my research.
Well, i'd be surprised. I'd worry about your researchers if honestly they were sitting around going like life expectancy of Betsy's family. No. I started actually like when I was about five or six. I remember I was the I was a butterfly in the local production of Noah's Ark.
Remember, and I remember, I remember, Okay, it was it was amazing.
It got clearly four stars on YELP.
So I.
Thought that it was terrific. And I kept acting all the way through elementary school, and then acted all through high school, and then acted all the way through college. So by the time I think I was twelve thirteen, I was pretty sure sure that that's what I wanted to do. But I also knew that I had to go through college, and I wanted to go through school and you know, finish all that before I before I hit the boards. So that was that was definitively what
I was going to do. There was one brief period when I studied. I did a year abroad in London to study theater and literature, and I had a great literature professor who sort of said, you know, you might have you ever thought of going into literary criticism because you know how to analyze books and stories and I loved reading. And I was like, no, I want to be an actress. I just want to be loved, I
you know, like you normally do. And he was like, well, this would be an interesting career path if you wanted to. And you know, I haven't thought about that until very recently when I realized, I guess that's what I'm sort of doing, is evaluating literature. So basically, yeah, I went. I got out of college, I went straight to New York. I did some summer theater and then some really bad dinner theater. Did you ever do dinner theater?
I never did. If they were I needed more attention just about to.
Say that it's the worst. There's nothing like doing a British force and running around like in your underwear on a stage while people are asking for prime rip, like there's just sauce. It's also like the clink clink clink clink clink of silverware and stuff. It was. It was just it was beyond humiliating and it should have been an early harbinger for my career. But I got I got to New York, and uh, it was very clear I was never going to be like Lady Macbeth. So
I tried it and got into this improvisation group. And I did that and realized, oh, I really love sketching, improv comedy. Comedy seem like a real good plan.
You know.
I actually about the Dinner Theater though you know, this was this was this is a number of years ago. But I realized, and maybe the only person who has like truly emerged from Dinner Theater Amy Adams chan Hassen Dinner Theater musical theater in Minneapolis, because I spent some time in Minneapolis.
So there you go. There's some fun. There's a fun fact for you today.
Somebody, somebody, somebody succeeded in see you know what, you know what Amy Adams got them to put their forks and knives down for a second and focus on something besides the lava tower.
That was that's right, Uh comedy, Yeah, that's I did not know.
That about you. You were doing and so you fell in love with like So it was improverse, like sketch that was sketched like.
I started with improv and it was a group that was around in New York when I graduated, which was the early eighties, late seventies, early eighties. Yes I'm old, and I found this group and it was kind of an offshoot of the Proposition in Boston, which were people who don't know is where, like Jane Curtin came from and was one of the along with Second City, was sort of one of the the og improv groups and I did. I performed with them for a while and then met a couple of people and we branched off
and started our own group where we did sketch. I wrote the music, my friends did sketches that were based on our things, and then we did like theme shows and we performed them and I acted in commercials sometimes to support that. But I wasn't very good at that. I was way better at auditioning and making shit up and then they would take the shit I made and then they'd make it into the commercial, but they wouldn't
hire me, so which was okay. And then I got, you know, the other kind of the the canary and the coal mine when one of the AD execs took me out to drink and he said, you ever thought of being an AD executive? Because you'd be amazing And I was like, no, I just want to be loved. What kind of a doctor? And let's just say, Brian, that's the way it went for a while.
Well that is I I'm telling you, I have not I have not thought about this in years and years.
But see, and I was.
I was one of the protective ones, right like I was when I was auditioning for commercials and it would be like, just improv this moment eating pizza, and I would be like, you know what, what I come up with is better than what they're going to come up with, and then they're going to steal it from me and they're going to hire somebody else. So now, how how do I how how can I possibly succeed in this scenario?
And exactly, yeah.
I see you were so much smarter if if I had met you in the future, but the present for me that the future, because you'd be in the future, I would have said, you would have come to me and you would have said, dude, you've got this all wrong. They're just raping and pillaging your slightly crappy material to less crappy. I mean, how long did you do commercials?
I did not very much.
I mean, I I know I didn't. I mean I still have like visceral.
What is it, uh two oh one South Librea one one oh one.
The enormous like I have like an actor's nightmare, but not about forgetting my lines on stage, like that of walking into that bullpen where they're simultaneously auditioning for twelve commercials at one time, and I was, I was, I was a good boy, Like I would go to the doors that I actually had an appointment, and then I would watch these people too, who are probably smarter than me, probably Amy Adams, where they would want it would go, and they would they would just walk around and if
they saw like a similar looking type person to that, they would just go sign in and just go audition.
I'm like doing that.
Oh my god, that's so gutsy, that's so Gutsy. I primarily auditioned badly in New York. I did some auditioning badly in LA, but I really locked it up in New York. And I remember thinking, I walked into one audition, I haven't thought about this in years because I'm having
total PTSD right now right. And they also never knew what to send me out for, so it was like I was like twenty six and they sent me out for like a Tampax commercial, and they're all these girls who are twelve, and they're like, like, what am I doing here? But I remember walking walking into this one audition and Robert Morse was sitting there and he was waiting to read, like, come, I don't know ben Gate commercial, and I was like, oh my god, it's Robert Morrison.
For all of you who aren't listening, Robert Morse, one of the finest actors, made his name for most people and had to how to succeed in business without really trying a Broadway ended up obviously a lot of people know from mad Men, but this guy was a god to me. And I remember walking in and you have this moment you go like you can't go up to him and go like what the fuck are you doing here?
Like why are you auditioning? Because like all the ship's going on in my head and this weird jinga that's happening. But part of me was going, this is not a good route. This is this is this is not a do not pass go, do not collect two hundred dollars. This is yeah, so so many, so many warnings, Brian, so many warnings.
Here here's the thing, Betsy. Still, I still deal with that to this very day. So you changed, you changed paths, and that was that was very smart in.
That read I changed past and I actually, in fairness, like I realized I got this job when I came out to Los Angeles. I was a really good waiter by the way, in New York, and I could not get a job waitressing in LA because in the late eighties, as a woman, you could not get a job in a fine dining restaurant as a waiter, like it was pretty much for Boton. You could go to a coffee, you could go to like edd Bebeck's, which is this old timy place that used to be, but you couldn't.
And a friend of mine suggested reading scripts, and so I started reading scripts to make money. And I like
sent things out blindly. I didn't really know anybody, And after like two weeks people started calling and they were like, this is really good coverage because for people who don't know, you read a script or a book and you write down the whole plot synopsis like a book report, and then you give sort of comments as to what you would do to either make it better or whether or not it sucked or And after like years of acting badly, in like three months four months, I got a job
reading at a studio, at a movie studio, and they offered me this full time job. And I sat and I drove around Beverly Hills where the studio was with my friend in a car, and I was like, I don't know what to do? And he said, how do you feel when you do this? And I said, it's easy. I really like it. I can solve problems. It's like my brain works like it's a puzzle. I love puzzles. You said, how do you feel like when you're acting?
I said, I love acting, but I just it's so painful and I'm just I feel like I'm not good enough. And he was like, is that your answer? And you know, dear reader, The best thing is that the super skill it gives you is when you go into producing, you love actors so much that and I genuinely love and have so much respect for actors because I don't know how the hell you do what you do, Like I think, it's such a hard job. And I can tell you for me, it was really hard.
That was at United Artists, right where you started. Yeah, where you started.
You started reading, and so I've got a bunch of pieces, but I want to kind of have you help me navigate what happens. So you're reading scripts and then I read you got into development at Booboo Productions. So was this a natural transition or well.
It's greed.
You know what. I got a mini upgrade while I was still United Artists because I got there. I started reading scripts and the same thing happened there that had happened actually with companies before I took the job, which is I started to get invited upstairs to give notes to actors like I made. I went to all the different executives and met them to try to figure out what they wanted. And one executive in particular, Ruth Vitally, who still is in the business, who was one of
my first mentors. She would call me and say, I've got a writer up here. Can you basically explain what you think the script needs and give them notes? And so I didn't know. I mean, I just gave notes. And I have to tell you, Brian, like sometimes they were really famous writers and I had no idea who they were. So like Ron Shelton came in and I told him miss scrip sucked. And it was great because I would say, to blame it on me, and if it's good, you take it like it's fine. Then Ruth
got a job. UA closed down and I was free lancing again, and Ruth got a job with Gary Ye of Goldberg Ubu for this short lived but mighty film development. And I had done what I think is sort of baby development in fixing people's scripts. But then we had we had a very large discretionary fund because Gary brand family ties, and you know pretty much they were incredibly generous,
and I like to say, like God bless them. I got paid to learn how to develop and kind of produce, and we would basically take the discretionary fund and go out and go this person looks nice, let's try writing us a good lay had and I learned a ton and it was real boots on the ground and it was great. And so from there I went after they shut down. You might see a pattern starting here. It's okay, the pattern changes, you'll see.
Yeah, I was gonna ask you.
Yeah, after twenty two years, I think she's probably gonna go Yeah, I got you too. This woman, she's just got the mark.
Uh.
Then I went to work with Galen Hurd and ended up running her development and she's doing just fine. Yeah, so the curse of non Harry Potter stopped.
Okay, okay, it's interesting your story about giving notes to famous writers and not just not knowing who they were. So you were just saying, there is a parallel that for me as well, which was I hadn't done the film and tell like I hadn't been beaten down in a way like everyone else. I had, just I was like I was working on theater production after theater production. I was just trying to do the best I could to create a character within this and make this the
best show. And so when I came and I think meeting the folks on the office so fast and having that happen, definitely that was a part of I believe why that happened for me at the time, because I was too dumb slash an experience to know any better or be nervous about anything. Anyway, there's something kind of beautiful about that. I mean within your story as well, that you were given the freedom to say what you thought because you didn't know you weren't supposed to maybe right.
I think that's absolutely I think that's really well put. I do think what you're describing in terms of your experience is very similar. So you don't know to be afraid, and what it did was it taught me there's no point in being afraid. I also, as anybody who knows pretty well can tell you that I have a tendency if I feel really strongly about something, you can see it all over my face. Anyway. I'm a really bad facial liar, like I learned. Actually, one place is when
you're on a set and you're watching something film. It's really important to learn not to make weird faces because we may not be doing it about the acting, but every poor actor will come up and go what I do. I'm like nothing, I just the sandwich was bad, and they're like no, So I think sadly, I have a bad poker face, and I do think what it does is it does encourage you to really to act how you feel, or to follow your instinct or to because
it got you that far. And when you realize that somehow or another, you gave notes to a fancy person and you didn't know that they were fancy, the next time you give notes to somebody's fancy or you're in a situation with a director or a show, you feel very confident in your own choices because I have not worked once.
Right, right, twice exactly. No, that is very true.
I will about about you having a poco face. I will tell you I remember the first time we met. I don't know if you remember.
This or not.
This is a long long time ago, and I can't remember exactly what it was, but it was either something in or around the Emmys, some event, and or in or around the Screen Actors Guild Awards. It was some awards party.
Were we were on that same circuit.
I thought, that's right, absolutely, and you were. You were
just unapologetically kind to me. And I spoke about you afterward to some of my other cast mates at the time, and I was like, you know it was just really nice, and I'm sure because you were saying nice things, I was like, Betsy Beers is so she's she was just so there was something about your openness and directness and unpretension to just tell me very clearly what you thought about the show, and I know I found it like so incredibly refreshing, and I've I've we don't know each
other very well at all, but I've always had just such positive thoughts about you because of that, not trying to hide, you know, not say something because oh you get that all the time, right, like people being guarded because they think they should be guarded for like why like we're just working on two different television shows, like like what difference does it make? But anyway, I didn't want.
To tell you.
That makes me really really happy. And I do believe that so much of what we do is it's got to be genuine enthusiasm, and I was genuinely enthusiastic about you. I was genuinely enthusiastic at the show, but especially like what you do and what you did, so I am very I feel like people don't share that enough too. I guess the deal is, you know that is it's it's exactly what you say it and it kind of
it bugs me. And ask people what my pet peeves are, and one of them is just say what you mean, like just I mean I I do it to a fault. Sometimes there have been moments where you know, I've I think I've made actors freak out a little bit, or you know, great writers or whoever, where I just go up and I just I either gush or I say
something really really specific. But then I don't care because I just virtually nobody hates to be told that you're they're seen, at the very least, maybe if you're actually talking to the fake president from twenty four and telling him you wish it was the real president from twenty four and he's a little weirded out. That might have happened once at a party late, but I try to keep it, you know, generally. Okay, that's great, I'm glad. I'm glad to hear it.
I do.
I do think. I think kindness and and honestly listening. Just listen to what somebody has to say. I know it sounds simple, but you're doing a podcast, you have to listen. I've done them. It's but it's just you learned so much. I don't know, it's good, but thank you. That's a really nice compliment that means a lot coming from you.
Well, and it's it's it's it's true.
You eventually become president, which sounds like a fancy worder.
United States of America.
Is an amazing transition from the story you just told of Dog Star films, two hundred cigarettes, high fidelity, pushing ten and at this point, at this point, you're you're a producer. Now, how do you define the work that you do as a producer because and I say that, one because I'm genuinely interested and want to listen, And two, there are so many different types.
So for people out there, how would you define.
The role that you play in these projects starting then and then moving forward.
It's such a hard question to answer succinctly, because first of all, they're the same job in movies and TV. You just the focus is different in movies, and just in movies, the person who's really in charge of the
vision is the director. So as a producer, your job is to me to take I believe it's everywhere from starting with an idea to acquiring piece of material to finding a writer to putting together and developing, and by that I mean working on story and figuring out different beats and how a story should play and why you want to do it, through conversations with the writer, to pitching,
through production, then post and then out in the world publicity. Right, So, if I'm being cute, I would say, it's those piece but the way I see and then in TV, take the director, take that person out and make it the writer, because the writer is the showrunner. The director was always
the sort of core creative vision. Fancy producers, yes, but it's usually the directors you know, the last name, And for me, it's always meant I want to make sure that I am there to help articulate the vision of the show, which means that I am I'm in service
of the show. I'm always in service of whatever anybody needs to make the show as good as it can be, and that means I will I will do anything that I'm vaguely qualified to do and part of my job which I'm like vaguely qualified, but if needed, I don't go off and do it. But if needed, the important thing is that I can look at the writer, the creator and the showrunner and say what do you need me to do? Or this is what I think needs to be done, And it might be different showrunners and
you know this too. Different creators of shows have different areas where they feel incredibly strongly about input, and then they have other areas where they really love to delegate. I love to be involved in every single piece that I can be, and a lot of it is how do I contribute to making the best product possible? And different people need different things. I've worked with showrunners who and you know, the folks that I work with here at Chanelan who are great, want very specific things in
order to help shore up and articulate their vision. I work with other showrunners and creators who want a much more wide partnership. You know, I think it's an I frankly love partnerships. I love working closely because I think this is going to surprise you. I have a lot to say, hah. And I think that collaboration very often makes for the most fun and great television and movies.
It's the best.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, if you can do everything on your own, then you don't need anybody else. And no matter how great your vision is as a writer or a director. As you indicated on the medium, you're bringing other people around to try to make it better than what you can create yourself.
Yeah. Yeah, And I think one of the great things about having experiences. I've told this story before, but when I was doing two hundred Cigarettes was my first movie. We had five dollars in ninety five cents. It was four billion five year old actors. Not really you know, they were all really cool kids in their early twenties, lateeens. And it was me standing for thirty eight days, freezing my ass off all night long, every night in New York.
And I'd never done anything like it before. I'd done all the steps before, but it was my first just real like almost so adventure. And I remember like somebody asked me a question and I did, like that, well, I you know, think blah blah blah blah, and it was I clearly had no idea what I was talking about. And a dude, I was like two in the morning, and I still remember we were like downtown and this it's somebody I think was like a grip was moving something and he said, can I can I just give
you a piece of piece? And I said, yeah, sure, I'm I'm sure I know the answer, and he said, you know, it's fine to admit you don't know what you're doing. People love it when you ask for help because they love to teach you what they know. So that's okay. And I went, oh, I get it. That's that's really you're smart, that's you're not I'm not fooling anybody.
And you know that. I mean, Brian, you've been through that where it's like, Okay, dude, you clearly have never done a shot list before, so just ask someone how to do the shot say you don't need a shot list or whatever the heck kid it, but I will. I will go into I always say it's a successful show or movie or project when I can walk away at the end of it and say I didn't know that thing, and I learned that I didn't know how
to handle that kind of person. I didn't. I think it's a great job because there's an endless opportunity for learning and growth if you just listen, and like we always say, here and Sean and I've talked about this for reason. I think it's true. With Alison Akel and all the wonderful people in development, the whole company but I we don't want to do anything we've done again, Like, we don't do the same thing twice. And that's the biggest.
One of the biggest things initially that I think we discovered when we were first starting out on Grays was, you know, ABC wanted to spin off of Grays and I think they wanted, you know, Gray's Chicago. So it's like, here's here's a girl named you know, Beredith and she's you know, it's that was terrible. I'm sorry, I don't why I said that, but you get the idea. And so we looked at each other.
Idea.
Yeah, we looked at it, and you know, and the doggie, and we looked at each other and we were like, do you want to do that? I was like, I don't want to do it all over again, do you? And it would have I'm sure it would have been gigantic success. But we did private practice because it was much more interesting to say, hey, those are people in
their twenties, they're just starting out. What happens if you take a group of doctors that we know, some we know, so we don't, and you put them in a different time of their lives, which is late thirties early forties, when the decisions are getting really hard, you experience death, you have to make decisions about your relationships and and
all that kind of stuff. And I think from that point on we both were sort of like, at least I can say for me, what I love is getting the opportunity to say what you want in different formats and stories and different ways.
Of saying.
You. I mean, it's time to make sure everybody knows what we're talking about here.
Betsy.
You're at the Mark Gordon Company. You meet a writer named Shonda Rhymes. Shonda Rhymes has created a show, Gray's Anatomy. You began working with her and on the show since day one. No, that's not true.
There was no show. So basically we developed a pilot together the first year that we met that was about work correspondence. It didn't get picked up, okay, so the second year we definitely wanted to work together again. It was for those of you who you probably all know because you listen to this podcast, and I'm sure he
talked about this a lot. But there's a pitching season and network in the old days, and it was summertime and you came up with your ideas and you'd pitch it and then you'd write the script and the fall, and then you get picked up around after the holidays, and then you'd film your pilot. So we heard that ABC was looking for a medical show, and she was like, I was going to go to medical school. And I said, I hate medical shows. I think they suck. I don't
understand what's going on. They're screaming and yelling. They're scary. I don't get it. And she was like, it's so weird. I said, because you need a you know, she was. We basically talked about it. She was like, there are these things called interns, and I was like, those sound good. In turns sound good because they don't know what they're
doing either. So we sat and we had a lot of conversations, which is what we've done in the other script developed, you know, talked, and then she went off and based on conversations around Big Brain, she did what I now call the percolating process, which is she takes all these things I'm making weird finger moves for people who don't know what I'm doing, weird finger moves, not those kind of weird finger moves stopping.
I didn't say a word.
I'm saying it. I'm saying it too some listener. But she she will go off and take things and do this incredible work where all of a sudden she came back and she handed me this piece of paper which was the pitch, and it was unbelievable and it was the first episode. Is pretty much the first episode. And so we got the pilot picked up for a script and then they couldn't decide if they wanted to pick it up to make a pilot. We were the last
show to get picked up. We had to do all pitch. Yeah, nobody got it except the executives who were behind it were really pro it. But up top there was one woman named Susan Lyne who was a co president with Lloyd Bron at that time. I think at ABC I could be wrong, and Seanda I went in and basically made a plea and told her why we thought it was important. I made up a bunch of stuff. I have no idea what I was thinking. And God bless her,
and God bless Lloyd Bron or whoever else who. By the way, there is a real Lloyd Braun for all of you who watch side Field. Anyway, they picked up the pilot and then we were the last show to get picked up for series and they put us on
a mid season and that's when we started. So I went through the whole one hole pilot and then this whole journey, and then I went off to continue to work on the first season of Grey's Anatome while I still had my job at Mark Gordon Company, where I was producing a movie in Italy called Casanova, and I was commuting back and forth every couple of weeks to
work on Grays and then go work on Casanova. And shortly after that I ended up quitting that job and going to work full time with Shonda on Grace.
Wow, those early days.
Now you're commuting back and forth from Italy, so you're not there every day. How much are you working on the day to day scripts? Production, reviewing cuts?
It's a TV show, so initially when the scripts are being written, I would be giving notes on scripts. But there was a writer's room for the first time. Up until then, it had just been the two of us. And then obviously there was a writer's room. We had a great guy come in who you know, helped sort of organize stuff. So it's a hard question. To answer, because initially I was involved and aware of everything that was going on, but the writer's room was sacras anct,
and they would write scripts. I would look at stuff, and then I was pretty much back and forth whenever it was necessary. And then when cut started to come in, definitively I was there. That started around the time that I was there more than I was in Italy. I went back and forth to Italy a few times. And true story, I was sitting on set after being on the pilot and sitting on set in La, and I was sitting in Piazza San Marco, and I was waiting for the sun to be perfect, because the DP needed
a perfect son. And I didn't understand why it was taking so long at this point. I mean, I came from movies, Brian, this is so ridiculous. But I was sitting there. I'm by nature really impatient person, as you can tell, but I was like, what's taking so long? And I think, I said, you know what, if I've been back in La, we could have gotten ten setups
in this amount of time. And Jeremy Irons comes over, who is in the movie, and he looks at me and he goes, you know, dear girl, you really should go back to Los Angeles because you're more I think you're more of a television person than you are a movie person. I was like, you're right. I think you're probably right. And you know, in the movie version, I would have packed everything up. But I went back and
forth and it was wonderful during the movie. But that was the moment when a penny dropped and I was like, I love TV. People just keep working. Nobody stands around, you know, no one stands around.
Nope, you just finished your twentieth year, became the longest running drama in ABC history. Do you ever give yourself a moment to go back and think of those early days and think, oh my gosh, we're still doing it twenty years later.
And how does that? What does that mean to you?
I mean, it's a stand it's astounding. Like I remember season one where we were just like throwing the kitchen sink because this is probably our last. And the great thing about Shanda, Shanda is fearless when it comes to storytelling, obviously, so it was just like, I just pull all the stops out and I don't know, it's such a testament to both our fans I mean have such incredible, crazy loyal fans, and something about the show keeps resonating. I mean it does for me. It's better for me because
you know that would be embarrassing, but it didn't. And there's so many talented people involved, and I think it means so much to me that over the years, like now, we have Meg Morenis, who started with us in like season two as an assistant as a runner and who is now running the show. And I think there's something so wonderful and incredible about so many of our actors directing, and I it just it means a ton. It's it's
mind boggling. I mean, if you had said to me, if you had said to the way younger less wrinkled me like years ago, that we would be going, I'd go, that's unbelievable. But yay, I mean it's it's definitely it's definitely crazy. But I'm very proud of you.
In addition to Gray's Anatomy, served as producer on Private Practice, among others, The Catch Scandal for the People, How to Get Away With Murder Station nineteen, and now of course the smash Sensation, Bridgerton Inventing Anna and upcoming the Residents, who I just was able to talk to Susan collect you.
Susan, right, yeah, how did you?
How did you know that? Now now you don't research me. I talked to Susan. I talked to Susan, and she told us, by the way, everything that happens. So I don't even know if you need to run it. Do we have a release date on that yet?
By the way, No, we don't, but I'm sure whatever release date it will be, it will be a terrific one.
She's lying everyone.
She knows exactly when she knows, she knows exactly when it's coming out.
I don't know.
I didn't I didn't do the math. I don't do numbers that well. This is like a combined nine hundred and seventy three years of television, it appears to me. So this I'm going to ask this question again in a in a slightly different way. I mean, at one point in time, you've got at least Gray's Anatomy, Private Practice and Scandal that's on the air. At the same time you now have other you know, Bridgerton, at the same time that Inventing Ana is happening, and now the Residents.
So you have to be more macro now right, I mean, are you are you reviewing scripts for these shows?
Still?
It depends on the screen, It depends on the show. Is I think if I always say like shows are like kids, I have no children. So this is as close as I can get to the analogy in that the oldest show is like having a kid who's left the house and has gone to college or is So when there's an emergency, when there's a real issue, you check in, You celebrate birthdays, you know it's correct, You
make yourself available for whatever's necessary. But honestly, you you spend a lot of time lauding them for their thriving survival.
In my opinion.
On the other spectrum, on the other end is when a new show is around, it's a baby and that needs a lot of Karen feeding. So when Bridgerton was starting out, I was involved in every aspect of Bridgerton. Now I'll be involved in different aspects of Bridgerton, but it's not the same. That's only been four seasons with eight episodes, as opposed to something like Gray Is Where And you remember this, Brian, like we made TV and it was twenty four episodes.
You know, so we were doing thirty. By the way, you guys, thirty thirty right against you guys.
That is rape and pillage thirty.
I mean it's a lot.
Yeah, that was a lot. Like you so you had like a bathroom break and a trip to Disneyland, and then you came back and you started again. It's like there, that's no hiatus.
No, no, thirty is a lot.
Thirty, Yeah, I think. So bottom line is every it goes back to what I said about producing. I'm here for whatever is necessary for whatever is going on. And also, remember when we were doing it was like Gray's Private Scandal, how to get Away with Murder. We are also developing shows, so on top of it, I would be theoretically keeping an eye on a bunch of shows and then trying to get new shows on the art because why not, I mean, we have there's time for bathroom break.
Yeah, yes, exactly.
Well, Look, I was told I needed to ask you what's happening in Bridgerton third season?
I mean I need all the answers.
What's happening third season in Bridgerton? You can see it. It's it's it's on it's on the it's on the streaming device.
It's all it's all, you're all done, it's all out.
No, it's out. The second part is out in a couple of weeks. The first part is out.
Yes, right, So what happens in the first part No, in the second part, Oh, I thought.
You just want to know in general. Oh, in the second part, a lot of stuff happens.
Yeah. Oh see, that's not that's not the kind of you know, breaking news we need.
No, no, you're yeah, you won't get any breaking news for me. There will be wearing corsets. There will be some dancing, undoubtedly, there might be some romance.
Romance or sex, you know.
I think sometimes there's both.
Okay, this show is I mean, this has taken over the zeitgeist here.
This is like a cultural uh what do you call it? Phenomenon? Is that it.
I it's a lot of people love, have a lot of love, which is really good because it's really bad when they don't. But no, it's it is. And I think, look, I feel incredibly lucky that when we first debuted this it was the middle of COVID. I had no idea because I don't I'm not a big social media person. Although everybody here keeps starting to change that and I'm like,
you just don't want this. But I was like sequestered during the holiday, and I started getting phone calls to my friends in London and stuff, and it was like this amazing thing when everybody was all separate and we were all kind of everything was kind of grim that the timing I think worked incredibly well for us too, and it got It was a little beacon of you know, X case escapism and hope distraction, distraction, and I think
everybody got. Really what I love about this show is you really engage in the whole family and the families, and so you have a kind of a fighting rooting
side for every couple as they come up right. And the thing that has been hardest for people to understand is that we really do mean that happily ever after at the end of a season and then the next season starts, and after the first season, people I think used to seeing our serialized shows, We're like, but when's the duke going to come back and leave her and do something? Really, No, Jolia Quinn, It's these are nice stories.
No, Well, you may not know social media, but you know other things. I don't know what that was a terrible transition. But you didn't.
You didn't. You didn't take my bait.
So anyway, it has become such a cultural phenomenon. You are the host of a companion podcast A side the ton Get it, Bridgerton.
Are you having fun doing that?
I love doing it? But also, Brian, I used to do Most people don't know this, but back in the old old days, Shonda and I did a podcast which was called we just called it Gray's Anatomy, and we would do that. In the beginning, we'd be like, I'm bad, super like Gray's Anatomy, and we would just talk. I don't even think we had guests. I think we just talked. So we started with that and I ended up sort
of asking a lot of questions. And then after that I did a Scandal podcast, and then I did I did a Gras Anatomy podcast, I think, and then I did an Inside Shondaland podcast, And so now I'm doing this and it's I really I love I love the medium, and yours are delightful, like you are, like, you're really really good at this, and I think, oh me, oh yeah, I think you're really really good at it, and you're you just get people to tell great stories and and
everyone just always it always sounds like everyone's having a really good time, which they are because I'm actually genuinely having a good time, which well, thanks deep until now today was not as sunny. But I'm I'm not going to go punch someone in the face now because you've been so lovely. That's good. But no, I just think they're great. I think it's yeah, I think I think you're really good at it.
Well that's very nice. I will tell you this, and this is not a joke. It's my favorite thing that I do. I love having these conversations with people like you and others. And again, I mean, it goes back, you know, a good a good storyteller always goes back to the beginning. But it is what you talked about, the grip telling you like, don't act like you know everything, and if you can learn something from somebody over the course of a conversation, well my day feels better.
So I truly do love doing it.
You can tell you.
Can tell thank you for saying it well.
Because you genuinely ask questions and that come from other questions.
Like you your I'm listening.
It's but that's the thing That's where we go back to. If there's one thing I could say about everything in the world right now is if everybody, if everybody listened better, if we all listened, there might be I don't know if there'd be solutions to problems, but at least there wouldn't be so much intense and hideous frustration. Maybe, I don't know.
I find that divisiveness, Yeah.
Divisiveness, but hey, I'm an idealist, yes, which is.
Well, I know me too, But it does feel in some ways that that would make things a hell of a lot better, for sure. I I gotta let you go, But I do have to mention again after my conversation with Susie who, Susan who? By the way, By the way, I just made Susan Colecchi Susie. So I don't know if she would appreciate that or not, but I did it. The rest it's coming out. She would give me no information. You want to tell me any more about that. You want to tell me what happens.
What I can tell you probably exactly what she told you, which is a it's a very funny murder mystery set in the White House. And I'm going to.
Say upstairs, downstairs, Susie yep.
And Susie aka Susan Glad Susie formally known as Susan Desperately Seeking Susie. She's so good, I mean, she's she's so good, she's and she's such a delightful human like yes, she's just genuinely couldn't be lovelier, but she's everybody in it's wonderful. Uzzo dubo, like the whole. But it's one of the most incredibly delightful, talented, joyful casts I've ever encountered.
The cast, the cast is incredible. I remember mentioning it with her. I don't have it in front of me, but you know, it feels like it's lacking. It's lacking me for sure, So let's just get out of the way.
I think that's about.
Other than that, it sounds like it's spectacular, a spectacular cast that I know will be yet another massive hit for Shondaland last question, what makes your partnership with her work so well?
You know, I think from my point of view, when I work with her and when I work on things with her, I do my best work. I feel like I'm challenged to do my best work. I feel like I'm engaged to do my best work, and I genuinely, I genuinely respect what she does. And two she is and and I don't. I don't know, you know, it's sort of like what makes it work so well? I think we both listen and we both have my guesses.
You could ask her me if she'll say no, but I think we both have a genuine that would be really embarrassing when like I don't respect her what I think we have. I just she won't leave the office. It's so it's so incredibly uncomfortable. That's not true, you guys. I do feel like I feel like, you know's there's that old improv thing which is yes, and it's yes, And I always feel with her. I can, you know, say I don't like this or blah blah blah, but
there's always a yes, and there's always a yeah. But what if we did this? Yeah? But what? And I know if I'm genuinely excited or interested about something, the likelihood is there'll be a real conversation that we're having and vice versa. That there's always something at the core of it where there's something really meaningful to discuss. And I think That's an incredible privilege in a world where you get to work with somebody Because people are like, wow,
you worked together for so many years. I'm like, why wouldn't we Like, why wouldn't I right, it seems to be doing okay, and I still I think she's one of the most delightful people on earth.
So well, after this many years, that is an amazing thing to hear. You know, I've never done this before, I've never said this before. I've never used these words here before. But there's to steal from a good buddy of mine, Dan Patrick, who talks mostly about sports and some entertainment. At the end of every show, they go around the room and say, what did you learn today?
And let me just say, the combination of what you just said combined with something that I've never really occurred to me before, which is really stupid on my part. But the fact that you all have or that you have made a decision that you don't want to do the same thing over and over, and the diversity of style within the work that you guys have been creating
now for twenty years is astounding. And the fact that you all are able to listen to each other and that you work well together, you must despite her wanting you to leave the office sometimes like each other, and that you're creating work that is different. I mean, you look at because I have a list here, because you know, I'm very prepared, but you look at like Bridgerton and Scandal and Grays and even Private Practice how to get
away with murder inventing on it. I mean you, the diversity with which you continue to explore within the medium of television is great. I'm sure the residence is going to be incredible, And I just want to thank you so much for taking the time out of your very very busy schedule to have a conversation with me today.
Yeah, right, I appreciate it.
I know, I really appreciate you asking. And look, I also want to give a shout out to all the writers and creators that we work with, because Shanda creates some of the shows, but you know, Paul Davies and Pete Nook and Alan High, like, there's a bevy of folks that I feel like we're also incredible, incredibly fortunate to be trusted with their vision. And I appreciate your kind words, and uh, this has been really really fun.
I anytime you're just sitting around doing a podcast and if you want someone to pop on, just.
Give me a I got you anytime.
I'm always sitting here pretty much pretty much here. Yeah, so easy to find. It's easy to find desperate to talk.
Oh, I know that that's not true, but thank you so much.
And listen.
After the Residence here wins an Emmy or two, and that becomes that becomes more of a grown up than at the very least, when you've got something else, your next major hit that is about to launch, that you won't give me any freak information about. Yeah, then the end, we'll talk then for sure.
Awesome.
Thank you, Betsy, Thanks so much.
Thank you, Brian, Betsy, thank you so much for being on. I appreciate your time so much. I know how busy you are. Thank you for your openness, for your insight to a part of the process a lot.
Of us don't always see. So thank you. I enjoyed this conversation.
Everybody, go watch the new season of Bridgerton out on Netflix. Part two coming very very soon, although Betsy wouldn't tell me about it, And listen to Betsy's podcast Inside the Ton, And of course we're all going to be waiting for the residents. I'm going to see you here next week. Until then, everybody, you guys have a great week. Of A Beat is hosted and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive producer Lang Lee. Our senior producer is
Diego Tapia. Our producers are Liz Hayes, Hannah Harris, and Emily Carr. Our talent producer is Ryan Papa Zachary, and our intern is Ali Amir Saheed. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by the one and only Creed Bratton.