Best of 2022 - Pt. 2

with me every step of the way. And if you're new listeners, if you like what you're hearing last week and this week, please check us out subscribe in the new year. To kick us off, I'm going to start with a woman you may know as Nelly Bertram, but I know as my hilarious friend Katherine Tate. Here she is making the very surprising claim that she wasn't always quite this outgoing. I was an incredibly shy child, really

really shy. So I mean talk about you know, least expected to do anything, let alone get up and make people laugh. That was That would have been me, you know, I mean, I you know, I mean, I was painfully shy, So potentially, I suppose, if I was thinking about it, maybe I did find a route in with sort of making characters and and doing sort of voices and becoming other than myself. But I definitely identified quite early on a really good way of deterring bullies was to be

able to make me laugh. And and that really emboldened me, really because I'd had a really unhappy stint at school at one of the Catholic school one of the conventations, had a really unhappy stint there, and I realized one day that actually, if you can make them laugh, they will leave you alone. And and that's I think that's

kind of where I definitely honed it as a defense mechanism. Yeah. So, so hiding in a way, still being shy, hiding in a way behind the characters that you created early on, I guess, although I although I all, I didn't do characters or anything when I was a kid, but I I learned a way of making people laugh, you know, I learned to I suppose to create the character of the of the of the of the comedian, of the class clown, you know, all of the of the funny one and and protected me. I felt right. So I

I came from theater myself. I never thought I would, you know, do film and television. For me, it was all about theater and live performance and creating characters on stage. You early on very prestigious in in Britain, in London. You became a member of the National Youth Theater. And I heard you auditioned four times for Drama School. I auditioned for four times, yeah, but no National Youth Theater.

I yeah. I was there with Daniel Craig. He was the shining light when I was when I was at Youth Theater, and I was I was when he was playing Leonardo, the lead in Blood Wedding. I was playing Girl One, so uh yeah, and things things blossomed from there. Well, you must have had experiences though on on stage other than Girl One through your How long were you there? Well, the thing is I was there for quite a few years. But we kept, we kept doing, we kept turning out

this same the same play. Because I guess it has got a little bit of success. But I know, we took it to Spain, we took it to the West End. We did it again in the West End, you know, and I think at some point so I wasn't in this particular cast, but I think it then went we went to Russia or something, you know, I mean, we really flogged to this one and I just had a

great time. I had a fantastic time, but I had also some running concurrently with that, I joined another youth theater in the East End of London, where I did get the chance to do lots of fun parts and you know, had a little bit more to Student Girl one. Yeah, and then by the time I got to Central, which was college essentially we all got our chance at doing leads and great parts. Yeah. Did you think that theater was what you were going to do or did you

always have an idea of something else? No, I absolutely loved theater. And my my first job out of college actually was in the National Theater. So I having graduated from the youth the after, I went to the actual National Theater and stayed there about a year, I guess, And did you know touring shows, you know, like cam around the theaters doing My first job was off Miller was all my sons? Where did you playing all my sons? The girl? The girl in it? You know, the yes

and yeah, yeah, it was. It was a long time ago. I did Joe Keller twice, by the way, Sorry it's about me. I did Joe Keller twice as a much much too young man. Yes, I did Joe Keller, right right, Yes, I would say so, uh so, yeah, I just didn't didn't occur to me. Even when we were at school, you know, drama school. It was theater that we were trained in. We you had a couple of a tiny smattering of film and television, I mean as a novelty. Really,

I mean, this is like or something. It was still theater was the thing that the school wanted to churn out theater actors, you know, And I absolutely thought that would be what what I did, what I wanted to do. But by the time I graduated, the idea of repertory theater just wasn't in the country anymore. It died out. All the all the regional theaters. All they did was received the big touring production on a weekly basis basically, you know. I mean that that was all I want

to do. And just thought, oh my god, I'll just go around doing plays all the time. And and it didn't really didn't really pan out like that, right, So what did you so, what did you do? You graduate? And you're like, well that life that I thought that I had, well, I graduated and it all started off okay because I got I was I was at the Nashville for a year only doing like small parts and un studying that you know, what do you care? You know five who cares? You know, that's what you should

be doing. And then my contract stopped and and I realized, you know what, I've got a feeling. I just had this inkling that I needed to do stand up because I needed to separate myself from the pack, as it were. If you're if you've just left rama college, there's plenty of young twenty somethings you know who have who have just graduated when you have, you know, I had to do something that's sort of put put me in a different environment. And and so I I just held my

breasting jumps in and started doing stand up. And that was the best thing I've ever done, because that from there, that was it. It was the difference between waiting for the fun to ring from your agent going oh, there's this this audition and picking up the phone and booking your own spots, you know, And I had a day job. I was working in an office ironically, and then and then after a few years, I was able to stop the day job and do do stand up full time.

But it was having that power. It's taking back that power and feeling you've got some agency over your career where you know, as many actors they don't you know, they don't you are you are at the mercy of of the of the casting calls, aren't you? Yes? How how was that experience for you? Terrifying? Was it exhilarating? Obviously it's still in front of a live audience, so you have experience with that, but now they have to laugh, right, How was that experience for you? It was? It was

all of those things. It was terrifying, exhilarating. It was like an ouse of body experience. I mean, if you analyze it, the act of doing stand up, it's a preposterous idea and you'd never you'd never suggest any one does it, and you certainly wouldn't do it for yourself, you know, the idea of yes. I definitely had a bit of stagecraft. So when I when I went out and did my first open spot, what would you call them open spots? Yeah? Yeah, sure, yeah, open micer whatever, Yeah, yeah,

open mike exactly. It wasn't the first time I've been in front of an audience, so I had that going for me. But even little simple things like I've never held a microphone in my hand? Why how? Why would I worked in theater. You didn't need you didn't use the microphone. It was just like what you do with this?

Oh my god, what's this? You know? And it was but it dawned on me, I think halfway through my sort of my little five minute opens but was this is ridiculous because not only am I asking people, not only are you expecting people to be quiet, you're asking them to listen and then laugh at what you say. I mean, it's that the notion is ridiculous, if you if you, if you analyze it. But I loved it. We love it too, Katherine. So there you go. That's

my office connection for this episode. But my next guest has his own very strange office connection because I kid you not, he was once Ellie Kemper's high school teacher. It's just really hard to imagine him being a teacher or Ellie being being his student, being a student at all. I guess literally any part of this scenario happening in real life is shocking to me, but delightful now that I know that it's true. Here he is Ellie Kemper's high school teacher. Oh and Don Draper John Ham, I

have to go back on that for a second. You remember Ellie like you remember her as a student. Yeah, and her sister carry too. Yeah, of course I remember all my kids like for for the most part. But yeah, no, I definitely remember Ellie. She was She was just a really hard working, diligent, achievement oriented student. It was very it was great. Like honestly, as a teacher, you're like, those are the kids that you only want, right, So when did you reconnect with her? Do you remember seeing

her again? Or yes? I do. She she went to college. That was five years later. I was out here in l A. I had probably been working. I'm not sure if I was on Madman by that point, but she, I remember emailed me and said, I'm coming out. I went to this and I did this, and I've been doing this U c B and blah blah blah, and I'm coming out and I'm doing my one person show at U c B Theater and I was like, Oh my god, that's awesome. That's like five minutes away from

my house. I'd love to come see it. That sounds great, And so I did, and I came backstage after the show and I was like, you were really great. That was awesome, you know it was there were twenty people in the audience, and She's like, Oh, I'm so excited. I got it. I have an audition tomorrow for the Office. And I said, well, I think you're going to get it because you are perfect for that show and this is like a perfect showcase for you. And the rest

is history. That is crazy. Suffice to say, I do remember when I saw her. You do remember her? I I assume you were asked. I don't know if by her. How did it come to be that? Well, you play her captor then on Kimi Schmid years later and keep in touch before then? Well, yeah, actually we had done Bridesmaids together, right, so we had that sort of meeting again.

And I remember being on the red carpet for that movie and looking over at Ellie and she caught my eye and I was like, this is so weird, and we both kind of laughed, and I think we gave each other hug, and I was just like, I can't believe you're I'm like standing next to you on a red carpet at a major motion picture that we're both in. That's going to be a huge hit, we didn't know at the time, but going to be sort of a cultural touch point for many people. But it was nice,

to say the least. But yes, I had kept up with her, and obviously because I knew a lot of you guys on the Office too, So like people maybe don't know this, but like you know, the the Awards Show kind of swirl, you know, had us in it for quite a few years, us being Madman, and then also the Office and Dirty Rock, and so we would see each other at a couple of occasions every every

year for quite a few years. So I would run into her at those things, as well as you and b J and Mindy and Tina and Robert Carlock and all the thirty Rock gang. And and that's when I did the stretch I did on Dirty Rock after thirty Rock, And that's when Tina and Robert said, Hey, we're kicking around this idea. We really wanted to develop this thing for Ellie. Would you take a look at it, would you consider it? And I was like, I don't know if I really want to be a go back right

into serious television. They're like, no, no, no, you're in like one episode a year. I was like, oh, okay, that's first of all, how dare you. Second of all, let's say, let's take a look at it. And they were like, well, let's let us come pitch it to you. And I was like, okay. At that stage of it, it was a pilot and the pilot was called Tooken t o o kay En. I was like, okay, what what and they're like, okay, you play a guy who kidnapped for women and kept them in an underground bunker.

And it was literally like, let me finish. But it's funny. It's like so I was like, I mean, I trust you guys, but I mean really like a lot of weird stuff had just come out about people, and I was like, I don't know, man, I'm not sure I find the funny in this. But then I read it and I was like, oh, it's really funny. And it's about the only way you get away with that is by playing this person as a complete and utter buffoon and totally out of the realm of believability and it

was really fun. I mean, playing that guy was so silly and so dumb, but so fun because it was so like Robert Carlock, who wrote the majority of the Reverend stuff, just got that dumb energy of like it's it's not even toxic masculinity, it's just stupid masculinity. It was really fun to do. And yeah, I mean it went for forever and we got to do that really

fun Netflix choose your own Adventure kind of thing. Yeah, it was really I was really really pleased with how it grew and how it ended and how it developed Titus's character and Carol Kane's character. Like it was just like the best of shows, like your show. It became like watching a family grow and like you watched the characters kind of go through their own stuff and you watch them figure their own stuff out and by the

end of it there better. Yeah. Well fat, So let's go back your teaching that, John Burrows, When did you make the decision that you needed to go to l A. I remember they had asked me to consider doing another year at school, um, and I was like, well, I don't know, guys, like I think I wanna try to see what can happen with this, And I just remember having this thought of like, well, I'm getting kind of old. Yeah, I'm like I'm getting a little long in the tooth, which,

by the way, nowadays is actually true. Like if you're not famous by fourteen on TikTok, give it up, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Don't, please don't, And also don't get famous on TikTok. But I was I just had a sense of like, well, if not now, when And I could definitely see inertia settling in if I didn't at least try. And I remember one of my acting teachers a long time ago, even actually the guy went and taught underneath at Burrows. I said, like, what's the worst thing that

can happen? If you try? You fail, so then fail again and fail better. I was like, Okay, that's it's

like pretty good advice. And it is like it really is, like I really think, especially nowadays, and especially how uncertain everything seems with the pandemic, with the complete devastation of social norms as it seems over the last few years, I think the idea of failing is so terrifying to people and and in reality you're kind of like and then you know what will happen, Like you'll fail at something, and then the sound is gonna rise and you're gonna get up and go get another job or not, or

you know you're gonna make it work. It's not climbing Mount Everest every time. Sometimes it's just walking up a hill and you just have to put one ft in front of another and then all of a sudden you look back and you're like, look, how far upcome? This is actually impressive. I'm impressed with myself, right, it is? You deserve credit, though, what do they say a bird

in a hand? Like leaving something, especially when you're in this business where it's so hard to get work, it's difficult to I mean you were twenty four, I I mean I was working in the theater and I was like, yeah, I want to go to l A. I want to go to l OH but I have this job. It's really hard to say no, this is what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna go to l A. And leaving opportunities that

you have is it's difficult. Well, I think there are there are inflection points, right obviously, and we all have them. Some of them happened earlier for us, and some of them happened later. And I think the idea is in the best case scenario, and I think you can probably attest to this as well, having the ability to identify them. Right, so when you get an opportunity, you say, Okay, this is an opportunity, like, I really want to take advantage

of this. And I remember, God, I mean when I came out here, I auditioned for everything and I got nothing. I was an extra in the pilot of the TV show The Practice, you know, I was up for Deep Impact. I didn't get it. John Favreau got it. And it was just one of those things of like coming so close to something and not getting it's coming so close to something and not getting it. And that happened over

and over and over and over again. And I had success, and I had a couple of things that I got, and it was kind of climbing up that hill of loose gravel and sliding down and climbing back up and sliding down. But then I remember when Madman came around. I was like, Oh, this is like an inflection point. This is an actual thing that I could really do and really do well, and I think that I need to id I have to like call it out and I have to be I have to get this. I

just have to. I'm not a big like believer in the secret or you know, manifesting your destiny or whatever that, but I was very much aware that I really did in a way that I hadn't identified any of these other opportunities or options that I really thought this was

right for me, all right, folks. Next up is the first of the pens that you'll hear from today on why he almost didn't take a role that would change his life trajectory, which if you listen to this full episode, would not be the last time that he would begrudgingly take on an amazing role. Here he is to tell you all about it, the incredible my new bestie, Pen Badgeley. I'm not kidding. I was ready to hang it up

before I took Crossip girl. I've been doing television for so long, really, it was already so disillusioned with the process. I had done so many shows, series leads, series that had all gone to series, not just pilots that had then failed and been canceled. We try to get that back nine you know what I mean. You know the first season in the office, you know, you know how was it a strug that combatus to get a show to make it? And I was just like, you know,

I can't do TV anymore. I just can't. And that's why when Gossip Girl came along, I initially did say no, but anyway, sorry, you can know so you you so no. So you you have the opportunity for gossip Girl comes and you say no, Yeah, I mean so so the so the co creator, Stephanie Savage, she actually asked me.

She emailed me the script and she said, you know, I feel like you will have already She her words in my memory are I think that you will feel like you've already done this, which is play the flappy haired, awkward kid. Okay, because that's what I had done on the show we'd worked together on like two or three

years previous. When I was seventeen years old, I lived in Vancouver for the best six months on a show called The Mountain where I was playing this young professional snowboarder and a show that was basically like the pitch was. It was Dynasty on a Mountain, Okay, And she co created that show with mcg at the time was huge

with the OC and all this stuff. So then she and Josh Schwartz got together to to make Gossip Girl, and Um, she emails me the concept the script and was like, I would really love you to look at it, Dan, even though I feel like you you'll probably not want to do it. And I read it and I said thank you, and you're right, you know, thank you for thinking of me, but respectfully, like, yeah, this is just not what I'm interested in doing right now. And the

opportunity went away and they cast everybody else. I couldn't find who they thought was Dan. Um, she comes back and sort of gives me a little bit of a a plea, I mean plea maybe sounds not. It wasn't like desperate, it was more like it. She she pitched me on the idea that I was Dan, and Um, I ultimately was sold on it and and said, yes,

why what made you change your mind? Um, honestly something that did not even pan out, Like, I don't feel like she was she she meant what she said, but what she said was that she was interested in the fact that he was like the sort of moral center of the show, like a sort of male lead of the show I think at its outset, and she was sort of pitching me on, like this idea that three years prior, I had done our show where I started out in a in a in a recurring role, and

then that role became slowly kind of the heart of how she saw the show that I was in every episode I think in the end and by the end, I was like a really a main character. And she was like, you know, think about that's that was the arc with your last guy, you know, And I've done another series of Warner Brothers since then, and actually he was in college, so I was taking a step back into high school. And at twenty years old, I was like, high school, are you kidding me? Like, like like my

sideburns are down to my jaw. I don't, I don't, I'm not. I'm not, like you know all, I've never even been to high school. And I honestly was just I just so wanted to play other things and other people and and and other ideas. But she kind of had this idea. She was like, you know, this time, you'll be starting out as a sort of heart of the show, and you know, just think of where it

can go from there. And And what's interesting about Gossip Girl And I say this as a witness, not as like a I think I took it personally initially and I am I complained as a young and but what I see it now and just just purely with detachment and like you know, distance and time. The whole point of Gossip Girl was that Dan was not meant to He was not the heart. Like the show wasn't so

concerned with having a heart. It was concerned with this aspirational, as we say, this sort of fantasy of of the of the elite, you know, of the of the glamorous, of which basically doesn't exist, you know, but but yeah, it's this like fantasy life of youth. And and actually in Chuck and Blair, who I think very quickly became the clear heart or hearts of the show or the bivalve heart of the show, the whole point was that they were not moral. The whole point was that they were.

They were an immoral but they were a moral They were sort of like, they did what served them. And at the end of the day, because they were portrayed by two talented actors, those characters had such depth and such range, because actually, when you play people who are who are not sure about what's right, you ultimately get a more compelling story. And I mean that's why, you know, years later, I'm playing a serial killer and people haven't

ever responded more positively, you know. And I think it's a sign of like the sort of stories that were interested in what we get from stories. It's actually very hard to tell a story about a moral center. It's it's I'm not saying that it's not a good story.

I'm not saying it's not worth trying, but I'm saying that it's Currently we live in an age where it's it's more compelling off the bat to tell a story about a bad person who's trying, who's trying, because I think we can identify more readily with that visceral level of struggle. And people also don't want to be told

what's yeah exactly, what is right? Yeah? Actually that's never worked with anybody, so any right, yeah, then it becomes preaching well exactly, And I think in some sense, Dan, coupled with the way that I unconsciously played him, became righteous and annoying, you know. And and that's and that makes sense at least I'll say this, I think true stands of Gossip Girl usually seem to align with the Chuck and Blair kind of like thing. And that's that.

I do think it's really seems to me, like I remember when it happened the first season was episode six. They were the kind of unexpected relationship that then just worked and then it became the heart of the show, really and and I think that no one anticipated that,

but it was a sign of the times. It was like, ah, and a sign of what you just said, which is like, you can't start out with somebody who's who's like always right or something or who and who always thinks that they're good and then just complain about how no one else is as good as then that's not that's not as interesting. It's not and it's not it's actually not humble in the end, Did you view yourself as the outsider on the ship? In life, on the show? On

the show, did I view Dan as the outsider? As Dan as the outsider? I mean, that's who he's identified as. But to me, the joke is always like, bro, how much more on the inside could you be? You're just not in the deepest of the inner circle. But you're in the same school. You're you're you're a white boy. You know, you're you know, your dad was a rock star, and you live in a three million dollar apartment rather

than a thirty million dollar mansion. So like, if you think you're on the outside, Dan Humphrey, I'm sorry, but you have a lot of learning to do. You just aren't literally inside the inside of the inside. You're just on the outspirit of the inside, you know. So okay, all right, it's true. I'm sure many of us would be a okay with the three million dollar apartment in Brooklyn. My next guest also played a very memorable character, although he was not as on the inside of the inside

or the outskirt of the inside. I'm I'm getting complicated either way. Here's Lamore and Morris on his experience playing Winston on New Girl. I gotta say writers on a New Girl geniuses because they would look at the bits in between stuff and figure out what was funny. They impro improvised stuff, and they would go, let's tailor it towards that, and they would write the most ridiculous stuff from my character and it worked and I loved it.

Every every episode felt like a sketch comedy show to me, because I didn't know what character trait I had that week. And you know, one week, my character is a professional former professional basketball player. The next week he has thin fingers and he can't carry anything. Next week he constantly has directions for some reason. It's like, what, So it was funny? It was fun. It was a fun, fun

show to do for sure. After this, I can see when you felt like they figured out who you were and we're able to play into what you felt like your strength was. Yeah, And once I knew I wasn't gonna get fired, I was just more comfortable going to work every day. It's like, Okay, why don't you think you were going to be fired? Was there anything specifically

that happened? I thought I was under performing, To be quite honest with you, I knew what I was capable of doing, but I would leave fit every day going I didn't do what I wanted to do. And they don't know that I have this weird energy that I could perform at this level that I could perform at I don't think they I don't think I've done it yet. And I would watch the episodes back and sometimes that cringe at him, and I don't know if that's that's

any good. It's very insecure. I was extremely insecure, and you know, my cast mates, obviously in the producers would kind of reassure me, like you're not going anywhere, but you know, I know how this business is, you know, and and they were very gracious to give me a lot of room to grow. I think we're all glad it happened that way because it was just another piece too. I think otherwise perfect Gast. Everybody on the show is clicking on all cylinders from day one, and I was

trying to find my footing. Yeah, I feel like there's in a lot of ways a similarity between The Office a New Girl in terms of this sort of disparate collection of characters that are that find themselves together and form this sort of pseudo family in a way. Right, is that is that a stretch? Not a stretch at all?

Not a stretch at all. It's like, no matter what office you go into to them in that office there this you have a story about a guy who acts this where oh I know this woman she behaves this way and you wouldn't believe it until you saw it, you know, and then the office is a heightened version of what people can identify with all the characters on the show. And I think that's the same way with

New Girls. That people they have these people who live together, and everyone has a story about my roommate does this, or he wears a kimono at night and you don't know, no he doesn't. And then you watch New Girl and you people go, yeah, look that's about me. You know, you know, it's a weird group of people that have a common bond, and you know, and they and they

stick it out and they stick together. And I think the reason why our shows resignated is because and lasted for so long, is because people at home felt connected to the characters. Right. No, for sure, when did you realize that the show was taking off it was gonna you know, after you after you found your own personal security in terms of your job security, when did you feel like, you know, we're gonna we're gonna be around for a while. Do you remember was there a moment?

There were a few. I gotta say, once people started knowing my name on the street because people people always they still to this day, called me Winston from New Winston's It's constant, but the moment people would go Mr Morris Lamour and Lauren getting get a photo, and I thought, my god, they looked up my name like they you know, people are invested in It's like sometimes you watch a TV show and then you'll just go onto the next.

Some of my favorite shows, I couldn't tell you the actor's real names, you know, And now I can't be you know, because we're in the business now. But like it's one of those things where you're walking on the street, somebody says your name and it hits you like, my goodness, that's what they know me from. It must it must be working. And when you would read I'm not supposed to read comments, but I read them. And when you see so many, whether they're good or bad, I go,

there's a conversation around an episode that we did. There, you go, oh, people care. People are actually invested. Then you see fan fiction you know about about your show, and you're like, whoa, people are disgusting but also invested. Yes, um, have you ever played true American? I have American? Yeah, but on the accident kind of I was. It was a party going on in Hollywood and we walked past it and you know, people recognize me, and they were like,

you'll never believe what we're doing over here. We're playing True American. And I reached out to the guy. We exchanged Instagrams afterwards, and I've been I've been talking to him lately, like where are the photos that I'm in. He's like, I was trying to keep you out of him because I didn't want to be that guy would be a paparazzi guy while your party. But I even posted some photos of my instagram back then. They were literally having a full on true American party in their

front yard. That's amazing, like standing on chairs, doing bits and you know, screaming JF carry after. It was a whole thing, which also blew my mind till this day. It still blows my mind. A drinking game with no rules, you know, yes, went in prepera. This is not a joke. I was like, oh, yeah, that True American and I got online to try to ascertain and figure out what

the rules were. Reading the description of True American, by the way, a drinking game from New Girl left me more confused, and I thought that I was to start with, So I don't know if that's a good thing or about that. But that's that's the point. That's the point, because if they're all those beers, you're gonna be confused and in the night you're gonna why did I do this? Why? Why I One of the things that happened on the office,

it was intentional. Greg Daniels, our show runner, had come from Saturday Night Live, and from the very beginning he felt like the ensemble experience was incredibly important. But the ensemble experience not just amongst the actors, amongst everyone. And so he had writers who were actors and actors who were writers, and I know a new girl. You guys had a similar experience. You wrote an episode, you directed

an episode. Was that you or was that a part of the culture you you feel like that that was created on the show a little, a little of both. Liz Mayweather is very She asked a lot of questions and loves hearing story. He's about personal life and incorporating things that you may have done. And you know, that's testament to all the writers as well. They just, you know, they want to know and they all know they knew

that I had aspirations to direct and to write. You know, I would always have ideas on set, as actors were always pitching ideas, character storylines, My whole, the whole Winston being a police officer was my idea, and then writing

the episode came because of that. The episode that I wrote was about my character being being new to the force but then meeting this woman that he really liked and was vibing with, and then he finds out that she's protesting the police, and so he's like, oh, so he's now doesn't know if he's ashamed to be a cop or if he's proud to be a guy. He doesn't know. And so because because he's a black police officer, you know, so he's like, uh wait, you know. And

that came from Twitter. So on the show, my character is named Ferguson. At the time, there was a lot of civil unrest based on what happened in Ferguson, and people started tweeting me. They were like, oh, how does it feel to play a black cop with a cat named Ferguson in these times? And I was like, God, damn it if I get one more tweet about this, And people started really asking me questions went from being funny two serious, like, na, brother, you gotta speak up,

what do you think about this? And it's like, I'm just an actor, but okay. Uh. So I went to Liz Maryweather because I genuinely started feeling uncomfortable. I asked her if I could address it on the show, and so she said, why don't you write an episode? So she paired me with Rob rose L, one of our fantastic writer producers, and we came up with an episode and we addressed it in in a way, you know, a very Network TV funny kind of way, but we still put some light on it and what could possibly

go through the police officer's head in that moment. He doesn't meet someone like that, you know, in these times that we're living in. So that was the reason why I wrote that one. But it was to her it was like, please do it. And then directing, they just asked, how do you want to direct? Damn? Right? I do? You know? Yeah? And that was easy. I was. I want to say, it's easy. The process was a lot more difficult than I thought it would be. But on

set everyone was so everyone except for Max Greenfield. Everyone besides Max Screenfield was so kind. Max Max is intentionally a dick. Yeah, yeah, I had that too, Rain Wilson. Yeah, and it makes it just it just to make it, she has to make a diymmical. Yeah, just take that whatever the little, maybe the teeniest amount of insecurity you might have, and just just twisted in. Yep it oh it. Even though you know they love you and the message

with you, it's still it works. What they're doing is working. I'm getting more and more insecure as the day goes on. I'm like my in over my head. You brought up Ferguson Are you a cat guy? Um? And disappointed a lot of people. No. In fact, hell no, God, you know I I don't mind I don't mind cats anymore. When I was younger, my buddy used to have a bunch of cats, and one of them, when it was a kitten, he said, oh, it's buttercut. Hold Buttercup. I said, oh, hey,

Buttercup is so adorable. And we just got through playing basketball, so I had no shirt on. Buttercup goes and attaches to my chest and slides down and cuts up my chest on its way down. Because it was too fast, you didn't see it coming. You couldn't stop this attack if you tried. Cats are super quick and sneaky. I don't trust them, at least with dogs. They're loud and you know they're coming. You know they're coming. This one. My next guest is an actor I have admired now

for quite sometime. He has truly mastered the art of transforming into his characters by using entirely different voices, entirely different physicalities. He's played fictional characters, yes, but also real life people that we all know, yet he has managed to convince us that he has become them. When he stopped by, he gave us a little insight into just how he does it. Here he is Paul Walter Houser. I I knew that there were good people in Hollywood.

That was the vibe I got, because you know, when you grow up in a ultra conservative setting and you're highly religious, it's it's easy to fall into this thing of believing that Hollywood is uh is this really an awful place with all these awful people, And it's like, I think it's a place full of a bunch of real regular people. But it just so happens that egos and greed and things play in a little bit more aggressively in our business. Then say people that work for

Turbo Tax. You know, it's it just happens to be an environment that plays on the the generational, you know, cyclical sins we as humans all incur and then sometimes rewards them or doesn't slap risks for some of them, and and that's its own thing. But yeah, no, I I would say that I learned that you can work with wonderful people in Hollywood. I learned to not be afraid to improvise. My whole thing was I'm not gonna

ask permission, I'm gonna ask forgiveness. At that time, especially, I was obsessed with the Christopher Guests mockumentaries like Waiting for Government, And my whole thing was, I'm gonna be one of those actors. I'm not gonna try to be Robert de Niro. I'll never be DeNiro. I can't be DeNiro, but you bet your ass. I can be at Begley Jr. You bet your ass. I can be Fred Willard. And I went into it like that and I was rewarded

for it. Lance Black, who had an Oscar for writing, is telling me he loves my improv So like that gave me a lot of confidence and let me know my my true North as a performer will always be to go with my gut instincts. I mean, you talked early on about standing up and doing impressions of family members or big movie stars of the day, Jack, etcetera. Do you feel like that influenced you in terms of creating characters, making vocal and physical choices. Is that something

that was always interesting to you? Yeah, I I was. I was sitting at brunch today with our buddies. My wife and I were sitting with Ray and deb Jiratana. They're they're like a power couple of of They do everything from visual effects to directing to their daughters and actress like wonderful people. And we're talking and they said, how did you pick up on all these weird characteristics and choices to make for playing Larry Hall and Blackbird? And you know, the answer I gave him was just

I love watching people. If I'm in an airport and I have forty five minutes to wait around for my flight, I'm not really begrudging or bemoaning it. It's an opportunity for me to pause and watch total strangers. This guy pulls out his sandwich from Arby's and he starts eating oh, I noticed he's eating with the rapper half on the sandwich because he doesn't want to get his hands dirty. But then he gets arb sauce on his fingers, licks his fingers and wipes him on his pants, So clearly

being sanitary doesn't matter to him, you know. It's it's about finding all the little things and all the little people and making up stories in your head of that old improv rule. If this is true, what else is true? And and those characteristic speak the greater things, both about humanity, the or the person in particular. So I, once again, that's me, that's me kind of ranting, but also saying that being analytical about the pieces that make up people.

You know, it's just being a journalist. If you could be a journalist of humanity and then trying to emulate those things, you're a great actor. It doesn't mean you're Daniel day Lewis or Violet Davis. It means that you pay attention and any of us have that ability. It's

not like it's a messing. It's it's a human thing. Yeah, that's what I feel like a huge part of my job is understanding and observing human behavior, and that being able to unlock that behavior can very often unlock the physicality, the voice, that everything of a character. There's something really communal about the experience of watching film and TV. You know. People sometimes want to compliment me and say, wow, you, how did you do that character? And I'm like, I

was doing you your How I did that character? You know, it's it's not as crazy or complex as people would think. If you can have the fearlessness and specificity to to dive into those things that you've experienced. That role Tom Cruise played in Tropic Thunder. People are obsessed with that, you know. They're like, man, Tom Cruise, and it's like he's really he's doing what Dwayne Johnson did in the w w E, where he's taking some piece of him and then amplifying it to a psychotic degree that makes

it entertaining. Tom Cruise, like many humans, has any ego. What if you took that anger and ego and amplified it to a billion you have less grossman. You know, doesn't mean times a bad guy. It means that we all have some ugly in, some sin, and some truth and reality to us. And if we choose to go ninety on a detour, that's what less Grossman looks like. Well, Paul, it's hard not to compliment you on your character development.

The work that you have been doing the last few years is well, it's awesome, and hey, I'd love to see how you would maybe take on the role of one of the world's most famous magicians, like, Oh, I don't know, maybe my next guest Pen Gillette of Penn and Teller. I mean to say that this man has lived a thousand lives would be an understatement. Our conversation was indeed one of the most surprising yet fascinating conversations

that I have had this year. Here's just a small taste when he tells the story of how a fever dream turned into a creative opportunity. I was touring with an avant garde band called The Residents out of San Francisco. I was touring their opera in as the Narrator and

in Barcelona, Spain. I got wicked sick and taken to a Barcelona hospital, which we're not the best hospitals in the world, where nobody knew where where I was because I had been taking an ambulance when no one from the crew was watching right, I spoke at the time, no Spanish, the doctors spoke no English. I had a fever that I only saw in centigrade, but was wicked high.

I was hallucinating out of my mind, and all I thought about was if one of these doctors could just feel the pain without me having to talk, they could diagnose it and fix me. M in a fever dream, an actual fever dream. I imagined the whole story of the Pain Addict, which is my original short story that I published, and I uh. I was taken out of that hospital by one of the band members who was a tough American who just said, get your fucking hands

off them. We're Americans, get your fucking hands off them, come on, pat and carried me out of the hospital and left me in the hotel room in Barcelona for three days with a dancer who was left to take care of me until I got better and joined rejoined the troop. Then, many many years later, I got to meet Charlie to a mutual friend in England. We've been out for lunch and we are having a wonderful time, and I said to him, you know, I don't want

to turn this into a business meeting. I'm sure everybody pitches, you said, Bob, I have been out of ideas for two years. Tell me anything. And I told him the story idea and he went, jeezus, that that'd be really good. And then he said to me, listen, let me tell you about me as a collaborator. I don't answer the phone. I don't answer text I don't answer emails. I will tell you we're doing something, then you will hear nothing about it for three months that I'll call you and

talk for two hours. I will leave you out of the process. I'll throw things on your shoulders. I am the worst person to work with in the world, but I'd like to do this. I said, good. I called them, stead, we're gonna work on this. Nothing. Six weeks later he called me, talked for three hours and said, I'll send you a script and you can make notes on it. I said, great, I have some other notes on stuff we've been talking about. This will be great. I'll send

you my notes. Nothing. Nothing. Uh. Then he sent me the script. Eight months later, he sent me the script. I called him up. He answered and said, we're shooting next week. I said, I have some thoughts. He said, I'm sure you do. We're shooting next week, I said, you know, I really wanted to audition for one of the roles. He said, I'm sure you did. It's cast. I said, what what is the credit? And they said, you'll be happy. He then gave me a fabulous credit

and overpaid me. And my agent said, we're gonna call him and negotiate the fee. We're sure we can get him up from here. And I said, listen, for one time in show business someone has paid me more than fairly. I think we should reward this behavior and say thank you. And it came out and people gave me all this credit and said, oh, was your original story and I said yes, but a lot of what makes it good was not done by me. But thank you. That's amazing.

He's I will now say, he's the best person to work with you could ever work with, makes you work not at all, gives you more credit, pays you well, goes away and no no email or call saying that kime out okay or I did a good job, didn't I nothing. We went out to dinner afterwards when I was in Britain and he said, yeah, that went well, and that was the entire about we talked about it. Oh my gosh, pen thank you so much for joining us. Hilarious, insightful, and I cannot wait to come to Vegas and see

your show with Teller in the new year. Listeners, we're closing out the year with the wonderful Danica mckeller, who of course played Winnie Cooper on The Wonder Years. The conversation absolutely heartwarming. So as a little inspiration for the new year, I'll let her tell you all about how her family managed to balance work and play so well. I read that both you and your sister were up

for the role of Wennie Cooper. Now was this? Did this cause issues when you got cast with the family at home and it was just a one time role. It wasn't like a big deal role that I got, you know, it was a one off. But they loved her so much they said they were going to write a role for her, and they did. She played Becky Slater. She did I think nine or ten episodes. That's awesome. So because you weren't auditioning for serious roles, this ends up becoming a really big deal for you. Do you

remember anything about the audition? Yes, I remember, I remember we auditioned on a Thursday, callbacks for that Friday, and I remember there's like a group of girls all reading for the part of Winning Cooper, including me and my sister, and the room got small and small, and I kept having us come in and read again, and then said, Hey, we're taking a dinner break. You come back and you're gonna read with Fred Savage, the the boy who's playing

the lead after dinner. I was like, okay, So we all went to dinner and there's a restaurant down blows the studio city and uh. I remember seeing Fred and wondering if that was the kid, and I was like, oh, he's cute. I wonder if she's the guy who I'll be reading with it. It was I'm not sure I've ever said in this in an interview, but it came down to the three of us, Me and my sister and this actress. I don't know her name, but she ended up with like a couple of lines in the

pilot episode. She's the girl for people who are super fans of The Wonder Years. Kevin is talking about love, you know, Junior High, and there's this couple who's holding hands across his desk saying I love you, I love you too, and she was one of she was one of the three of us who were the final contenders or Windy Cooper. So of the three of us who were sitting there reading with Fred after dinner, we all ended up with Roles on the show. With Roles on

the show, that's awesome that I love. That's a BTS everybody. That's a behind the scenes nugget. Um. I did talk for a while to to Daniel Fishel about what I understand is the same with you, that you're your first kiss was on camera with Fred in the pilot. How did that bring some extra nerves? Oh for you, especially because at the time I had a huge crush on him and I was just so excited and so nervous.

And I still remember after the first take when they said cut, the whole crew started plotting, and I don't know who started that, but it was mortifying. I mean, you can only imagine all the nerves, anticipation. You know, you're about to have your first kiss, You've got a crush on the guy, you know, and then it finally happens. It's the most amazing moment ever. And it's like, wait, that wasn't a private That wasn't real, okay, right? Did you?

Did you think for the rest of your life free time you kissed someone that would it would break out an applause all around you. I remember when I had my first real kiss at least two years, no year and a half later, with Jeremy Miller, by the way, who was the little boy on Growing Pains. That was

my first kids. He was my first little boyfriend. I was fourteen and he was thirteen, and and uh, it was actually at my dad's house in Lahoya, Okay, were they were down there for some reason, and so we all hung out and then we're my dad's house and we had a moment alone and and I remember thinking, wait, is is gonna be my first kiss? And it was like, oh, this is so different because I don't know, you know,

but not scripted, it may or may not happen. So that so no, I didn't think You're gonna be cameras. But I was like stunned at how odd it felt to not actually know how I was going to go now it was going to go down? Yes, um, you are on the Wonder years basically your entire teenage, right twelve to eighteen. What was it like for you growing up and and this is a huge show at this time, and everybody is talking about it, and everybody is talking

about you and about Fred at the time. What was it like for you growing up in the spotlight with all of that attention during what for most is awkward teenage years. I was not in touch with it. And that's the truth. I was not in touch with it

at all. At some point, some point, I think it was probably sixteen, and someone on set referred to me as America's sweetheart, and I was like, what we're talking like, I just I was very busy with school and work and family life, and my mom, both my parents always emphasize the importance of basically everything over show biz. So health, family, school, and then sure showbiz. But that's that was the priortiest game.

In fact, when The Wonder Years got nominated for the first time for an Emmy, in fact, we won that year. I wasn't there because there was a river chip, like a river rafting chip scheduled with my dad and my sister that and he had a really busy work schedule and we couldn't move it, and so we went on the trip, I mean, and it was kind of like, well, we have this invitation we could go to the Emmys, where we could go in this rafting trip, and my

parents decided together, know the trip is more important. And I remember being in this tiny, little more Tell room in Oregon. We're gonna get in the Rogue River the next day, and it was like a TV from the nineteen seventies. I don't know where, it's tiny little screen and we watched The Wonder Years win the Endy. We jump up and down the bed and like the one and we went to sleep guy but like five in the morning and hit the river and had the trip

of our lives. I mean, I remember picking black berries on the side of the river with my dad and my sister, and it's some of the most precious memories. So that kind of thing, you know, that's that was my life. Well, folks, there you have it. As evidenced by this week's episode. There's not much I like more than some precious memories. So thank you all for this incredible year. I cannot wait for you to see what we have in store for To put it lightly, well,

it's gonna be freaking awesome. I hope you round out your year with some love, some laughs and whatever it is you like doing the most. I'll see you next year with well with another pretty cool guest, if I do say so myself. So get ready to make some brand new memories. Happy New Year, everyone. Off the Beat is hosted an executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive producer Langley. Our senior producer is Diego Tapia.

Our producers are Liz Hayes, Hannah Harris, and Emily Carr. Our talent producer is Ryan Papa Zachary, and our intern is Sam Cats. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by the one and only Creed Bratton