And it was also just so great to be introduced to vets and to share a space with them. And that's right.
I haven't been I haven't been referred to as a VET before.
I hope you take it as a compliment and not an insult. Well I don't believe that. Yeah, Bryan.
Against me, No, But I mean when I showed up on set, it must have it must have been just it was unnerve intimidating for you. Oh stop it, stop it.
Hi. I am Ashley Murray and I play Hazel in the Other Black Girl.
We're back, everybody with another episode of Off the Beat. This is your host, as always, Brian Baumgartner, and my guest today is my old pal, Ashley Murray. She is a super smart, super dynamic actor who you may recognize best with Caddiers on She played Josie of Josie and the Pussycats in both Riverdale and Katie Keen. She also played Senzi on Tom Swift and recently starred as the titular Other Black Girl in our new show The Other Black Girl. Now I say ours because I also make
an appearance in that show. Along with my guest from last week, Sinclair Daniel if you haven't listened to that episode, you should go back and listen. And if you haven't watched, you should watch the Other Black Girl on Hulu. But first, sit right here and get to know my hilarious friend and castmate, Ashley Murray.
Bubble and Squeak. I love it, Bubble and squeak on Bubble and Squeak, I cook get every mole left over from the ninety before.
Hi, Ashley, how are you?
Hie?
I'm good.
How are you?
I'm good. It's so good to see you.
It's so good to see you too.
Oh my god, it's been a year.
No, it has it's been a year.
Have you missed me? Terribly?
Terribly? I don't know how I've slept, to be quite honest.
Well, yeah, there's there's a lot of reasons for not sleeping over the last several months. Are you in New York?
I am, Yeah, I'm in New York.
Okay, how's New York?
It's cold now?
Okay, she's cold, she's cold. Well. I want to talk a lot about us meeting and working together, but but I want to start with with you, just just you, and how you got into this crazy business. I researched which I did not know. Did you You grew up originally in Missouri? Is that right?
Kansas City, Kanas City, Missouri, that's where you were born. Yeah, That's where I was born and I lived there for the majority of my childhood. I moved around a little bit, but the majority of my childhood was in Kansas City.
How was that? How was Kansas City for you?
You know, it's hard because I'm in that group of people that didn't quite gel with their hometown. Okay, you know, they're really beautiful historical things about Kansas City that I will champion to the day I die. Also, I am just not meant for the pace of life that exists in Kansas City.
What's that pace?
It's slow, you know, it's it's slow, very easy going, very minimal. You know, I live in New York City. There's so many people from everywhere doing everything at any given moment. Life is much simpler in Kansas City.
So well, you know, there must be something about the water there in Kansas City, though, that that that breeds, that's the wrong world, that that nurtures funny, funny, funny people, because it's crazy. There was aeriod of time when on this podcast I was talking to people, and every single funny person, Paul Rudd, Eric stone Street, Rob Riggle, Dave Keckner, like everyone's from Kansas. You wouldn't. You wouldn't think, Well, I don't know.
I ain't from Kansas. I'm from Missouri. Now, okay, there's a kansaity Kansas, and there's a Kansasity Missouri. I'm the Missouri side. I'm not from Kansas.
What does that mean? Well, Kansas is in the name of the city.
Well, the thing is, Kansas City falls on the state line, so like a portion of it is in one side and the other. And similarly to the way that people you know are down for their sports teams, you can't be calling somebody from Kansas City, Missouri from Kansas. It's just disrespectful God, and you can fight me on it. I'm sorry, but.
Okay, it is okay. So do you root for other sports teams besides the Kansas City once?
Well, I used to root for the Saint Louis Rams because my cousin Mike Jones played for them for a while. But I am very much so a Kansas City Chief fan. Kan City Cheese can see Royals. I also did for a spell. I was very much so for the forty nine ers and the Giants because I lived in Oakland for two years of my childhood.
Yeah, now that's what I heard that you spent some time in Oakland living with your aunt.
Yeah, right, I did. I lived with my aunt.
How was How was that different?
It was very different because you know, it was just myself and my older brother for one year and then it was just me. And it's the one time in my life I've been an only child. And I'm sure that many only children can speak to the fact that you have a lot more access to things. There's a lot more time from the parents, there's a lot more money to go around for extra curricular activities. So that was actually the time that I discovered that I wanted to be an actress was when I was living with
my aunt. I was in my first ever play at ten and a half eleven.
Okay, what was the play?
It was? It was a play that was written by the children, so it wasn't you know, anything published, and I came in.
So better than most television.
Actually the play was I think the play was entitled Channel zero We're watching you there you go? Uh, And I had a non speaking role. I was a mute narrator and I got a standing ovation at the end of the show. So I was like, oh, I don't even have to say anything.
To move people. And that was when you decided it was what you wanted to do.
Yeah, and I was. I was in the throes of so many other things creatively. I wanted to be a seamstress. I wanted to be a dance choreographer. I wanted to be a potter. I think that's what they're called people who throw pots, a sculptor. I discovered a lot of things in that two year range, but I fell deeply, madly in love with acting.
Wow. Yeah, And so from then on you were doing it either in school or whatever.
Yeah, I was doing when I moved back to Kansas City to live with my mom again, I was doing like an after school program of acting. And then once I got into high school, I started to compete. They have this thing called competitive drama or speech and debate depends on where you're from. What it's called forensics, Yes Fordic,
Oh my god, the away trips for forensics. I did a lot of forensics in high school, and I, if I may, I will toot my horn that I was the third person in my high school's history to break the amount of points that you can score as a whole in the forensics league. It's very difficult to reach that point. You have to do very well, and I maxed out of the points halfway through my competitive career, so then I just kept doing it for fun.
So you're like, so I did this.
I did because when you came out with the forensics.
No, I know, I think three time state champion.
I think.
Not to too. But the point is we both it appears enjoyed acting but also winning, so you know.
It wasn't really the winning. To be honest with you, I just know. I'm serious, I'm serious. I really just loved being challenged. It actually kind of made me feel a way. I remember we walked into a a like
a cafeteria. It was a Saturday because it was, you know, one of those type of competitions, and I saw a young girl that I recognized from other competitions, and she came up to me and I was like, hey, how are you, and she goes, I was doing really well until you walked in, because I knew I was going to place. But now I'm not, and I was like, oh, I'm sorry, really nice to see you. I just I
like competing with myself. And I really loved directing, quite frankly, because you remember how you'd have to cut all of your work down to fit into the time frame. That was my favorite thing to do, was to help all of my other friends in class and on the team to whittle down their work, to hone in on what the important parts of the stories were and help them express it like it was great, Like winning was great.
But I just really loved I loved the competition. I loved to just like challenge myself to see if I could do better. I wasn't really about beating anyone else. I thank you.
I think mine was about beating people. But I know, but I believe you. So you were doing for forensics, you were doing school plays. Did you do any screen work or commercials or an agent? Did you? Were you on that path at all?
I was trying to get on that path, and I was very close to Actually I was semi on the radar of Disney back when I was like fourteen, I want to say. But then the first writer strike happened. Oh really yeah, and then everything went silent. We didn't hear from anybody for ages, and I was like, well, got to start over. And that was it. Like it was just regular school productions. And I didn't do any
television or screen until I was nineteen. I did my first short ever, okay, and it was with this young woman who is now, if I'm not mistaken, an Emmy winning director. Her name is Morgan Damren. We met at the Missouri Finears Academy and she was doing her first short film. It's called Finding Harmony. I think she and I might be the only ones with that DVD. That was my first film related work. But I actually graduated high school early so that I could start working in
children's theater. I did children's theater when I was eighteen.
That was in Kansas City. And then what prompted you the move? The big move to New York and to attend the New York Conservancy for Dramatic Arts, which is a fancy, fancy title.
Yes, it used to just be called. When I first discovered it, it was called the School for Film and Television. Okay, yes, I know, I know that's why they changed it. I found that school when I was also at the like yearly statewide competition where all of the musicals that were nominated were competing to win the best Musical, Best Stage Play. And then there was this secondary competition to win scholarship money, and if you were inducted into the ability to compete,
you had to do a monologue. And I was competing. And at that time, they also had schools from around the country giving seminars to introduce themselves to graduating students. And that's where I found my conservatory, and I also I fell in love with that conservatory. I decided that that's where I wanted to go. It was in New York, and I also won that two thousand dollars scholarship.
It's winning again. There you go.
Maybe I do like it. Listen, if money is attached to it, I'm gonna get it, all right. I got places to go, I got things to study. It costs money I need, that's right. But yeah, I discovered my college there and I actually couldn't afford to go when I graduated, I didn't have the money to go to New York, so I moved back to California for the summer. My aunt helped me get a job with her friend who was an attorney. So I was her office assistant and.
I did that work too. God, we did many connected. Yes. My job was to count pages that they were they were going to submit, like for evidence, which was important work, yes, but I had to go through and make sure all the pages were actually there. Oh yeah, that sounds like office work.
It's it is office work, and that's that's accurate. It's one of the many things that paralegals do. And I only know that because later on in life, due to that one three month office job, I ended up becoming a legal assistant almost four years while I was pursuing my career here in New York. Okay, but anyway, I worked as an office assistant. I was also teaching theater at my aunt's summer program. And this was I don't know if she had actually opened up the school. She
may have opened it at that point. My aunt, Angela Wellman, excuse me, doctor Angela Wellman. She has the first and only non public or non privatized public conservatory of music in the United States. It's in Oakland. It's called the Oakland Public Conservatory of Music. And I taught theater there in the summer. So I did that and I also put on a one woman show. I cooked all the food and put together a lineup of performances and raised
money to afford to go to college. And I got there and was about ten thousand Somewhere between seven and ten thousand dollars short, I can't remember now, but we were able to thankfully get money from family friends. They lent me money so that I could stay in school. I went to my little two year conservatory. It was wonderful.
How much singing were you doing at this time, either with your aunt or growing up in high school.
I only sang in the musicals. I didn't really sing anywhere else. I come from a very musical family. My mom's a singer, my aunt sings, my grandmother was a beautiful singer. So naturally I have it, but it wasn't my main focus. It's actually the thing that I'm most afraid of. But I sang in musicals, and I didn't really sing in college, now that I think about it, I don't unless it was karaoke. That was it. Like, I wasn't really doing anything else.
Right, Did you have a focus either being on stage or were you looking right away to try to get into on screen film and television work.
It was always film and television. It was okay, yeah, it we When I went to this particular school, they didn't have any coursework for the stage. They were implementing that the year that I was graduating, but I opted not to participate. I just wanted to get right in to the nitty gritty. I love film, I love movies, and I also loved television because I thought, comparatively, it
was the closest thing to theater. You know. I didn't understand that you had to get renewed and that, you know, sets and crews could change, and that you never have the same director. Like I was clueless. I just thought, well, everybody loves Raymond was on for nine years, Like it's the same thing as being on a show for six months, you know. So foolish. But film and TV was always my goal, and training for it in New York was also always my goal.
Now, you mentioned the early short film work. I have pulled up here that some of your other on screen early work included a coke commercial, yeah, Diggy Simmons yeah, and Lady Gaga's MTV VMA promo video.
Yeah.
So how how were these early experiences for you? Where you know, you were you were actually getting paid.
I'll say that the second screen work that I did was well film wise, was Welcome to New York that I did with a very dear friend of mine, Steven Tyler O'Connor. He is a creator, a director, a writer, and he was doing this movie and I auditioned for it and I got in, and I believe that we were paid. It's been so long ago, but like we probably made you know, some small amount of money what he could afford because it was, you know, it was a small budget. But I got the chance to like
hold the cam. You know, I was running around New York City and hitting marks and it was right. That beginning of that experience was far more valuable than what I got paid, because I don't even remember. I remember what I learned from it more than anything. But once I then graduated into having representation, I had a manager, I was freelancing with agents, and that commercial money I miss it, I do that was good, good, easy money.
And the commercials were fun. Like the auditions did never match what you were doing, Like for that Lady Gaga MTV promo commercial, I was wearing pretty much what I'm wearing in the commercial walking down you know the street in Manhattan with a pink two two and ripped fish nets and a faux hawk and crazy makeup. It's like one o'clock on a Tuesday. Nobody gives a fuck. I'm just on my way to this audition. And I get in there and they were like, so what would you
be if you weren't an actor? Like what did that have to do with anything? Just asking you questions and they narrow the line down and then all of a sudden you book the commercial. So you know, it was fun and quite frankly like I'm not lying when I say I missdoing commercials. It was just it was so easy and so fun.
I was told before you were cast in Riverdale that you almost quit acting.
Oh yeah, why because I was broke. I was so broke. I was so many months behind on rent. I was like four months behind on rent. I was selling my belongings just to be able to pay my utilities so that my roommates wouldn't get pissed off. You know. I was really truly like scraping the bucket. And I had just met with my now agent at Innovative, and I was like, how am I going to tell them that I can't audition. I've been waiting and working so hard to get to this point to get representation, and now
I have to tell them I can't do it. So my manager and I were conspiring up a story as to why I would have to take a break. I was going to take a break for a year. I actually had finished my second round of interviews to be an executive assistant at some office in Columbus Circle, and I walked to Whole Foods to buy some groceries for the first time because I had gotten a proved for food stamps that day. And while I was shopping, my manager called me and told me that I had an
audition for Riverdale. And I was like, all right, fine, I'll just do this one thing. But then like that's it, I'm going to get this job at this office. Like I have to pay my rent, I can't leave the city. I just have to take a break. And within it was like what four days after that, I got the job.
Wow.
Yeah, it was a very intense turn of events. I'd never tested for anything before, I'd never been to LA for work in any sort of capacity. It was insane, Like I washed my clothes in my bathroom sink and ran up the street to my local laundromat, and the guy recognized me, and I begged him to please drive my clothes for free, because I had just spent the last money I had on my credit card to go downtown to get prints of my resume to staple to all of my head shots, and I needed to wear
this outfit. They asked me to wear the same outfit I did in the first audition. It was desperate. I was up all night stapling my stuff together waiting to find out the flight information. Went to JFK, got to LA, took a cab to the wrong lot, and walked twenty minutes to get to the right one, and everybody thought I was insane because I guess people don't walk in LA. Yeah, And I was blinking one eye at a time because I hadn't slept. I was way too broke to care
whether or not I booked the job. I was just like, I could leave here this as broke as I am when I got here. But at least Warner Brothers now knows that I exist. I didn't even know that there was a WB office in New York, and now they know who I am so either way, it's gonna work out well for me, and I ended up being lucky enough to book it.
Wow, how much singing did you do on that audition?
I sang one song twice, and the first time I sang it was in front of the studio I believe. I think it was a studio, and then the network that following day, but I forgot the song halfway through. I was so tired. I literally was singing and I stopped mid sentence and was just standing like an oppose waiting to find and then it came back and I kept singing again. Ended that that was it.
Cast is Josie from Josie and the pussy Cats, which I didn't even realize. But I'm an idiot that it's a comic book. Were you a comic book fan? Were you aware of Josie and the Pussy JH.
I was aware of Josie the Pussycats. I was aware of Archie comics. I was obsessed with that.
I knew Archie comics, but I didn't know Josie and the Pussycats were I knew them both? Okay? Were you a fan?
Yes? And I watched the cartoon. I loved it when they also would make a debut on this we do cartoon like.
I'm okay it.
Into animation and comics. That was my thing. I loved it.
How'd you find out that you got cassed?
I was in my hotel room.
After you were You were still in La.
Oh yeah, I was still in La. We had just finished the studio audition and the head of Archie Comics came up to me and congratulated me on how well I did and I was like, oh, thank you. And then they left and I got back to the hotel and I found a tray of chocolate dip, strawberries and champagne. I thought it was a gift from my manager and my agent congratulating me on my first test. I was like, this is so nice. So I called my manager. I was like, hey, Kim, thank you so much. She was like,
what are you talking about. It was like for the champagne and strawberries like I need. It was so stressful the day. She was like, call the front desk right now, call the manager. I did not send those to you so much. One knows where you are. It was like deaf Con nine. I don't understand why it went from zero to one hundred. She was convinced that somebody was like trying to poison me. My manager's very protective, bless her,
I love her so much. And so she starts going on a rampage down the directory trying to figure out who put this food and this alcohol in my room. Shes like, don't drink it, don't touch it. I need to find out where it came from. And she discovered that it was sent over as a congratulations from the studio, and I was like, oh, that's nice. And then like twenty minutes later, my agent called me and said that they were offering me the role. So I still went
home poor as hell, but I had a job. She had a job.
So you flew back to New York, obviously, But did you feel Was it relief? Was it excitement? Was it gratitude? Was it yeah, the plan has worked? What was your overwhelming feeling?
Honestly, I it was all of those things. I was so grateful, and there was a major sense of relief, and a part of me, not even a part of me, so much of me. I've always known that this is what I'm meant to do. And I am a firm believer in what's mine is mine, and when it's my time, it's my time. And that helps keep those very human emotions of jealousy or fear, any of those things that
naturally occur at Bay. You know, I'm able to quell those things because I just try to bring it back to myself and remind myself that my path is my own. Nothing about what we do is ordinary or planned, So I just have to sit deeply within myself and show up as best I can and keep pushing. And I
got this. It was met with so much excitement because also it was such a quick turn of events of me not having a job to having it to the day that I flew back, it was already announced on deadline that I had been cast in the role, so so much of my world changed very quickly.
It's an iconic character. Did you feel pressure about that? Obviously it's being reimagined in a new way, yeah, But did you feel pressure of the history? I guess I didn't.
Good I didn't because I knew the love I had for the comics as a whole. I also was very brave and honest with the CEO of Archie Comics that I told him to his face that I stopped reading the comics after they turned into a graphic novel. I preferred the original Digest version. And this is before I booked a job. I was like, listen, I'm just being honest, Like, I go hard for Archie comics, but I love I'm partial to the Digest, right, And I knew that the
characters that I grew up watching were not me. They didn't look like me, you know. I was not the same age they were when I was playing it. And I wanted to bring as much love and care and respect as well as my own idea to the work. And I knew that it would be met with nothing but respect. So I wasn't worried about the pressure of the history behind it. I was more concerned about the public reception around the fact that I was playing a character that on paper didn't look like me.
Hmm interesting.
Yeah, I was more worried about that.
Yeah. And did you feel that ever?
Oh yeah, yeah, yes, I did. Yes, I felt it right after the I felt it throughout the portrayal actually working and doing the show. There were too many people comfortable with trying to pigeonhole my character simply because of the restraints that are placed on black women just in general, you know, having any ounce of emotion. Oh, she's angry, she's aggressive, she's this, you know, being standing up for herself. Well, she's bossy and she's sassy, and it's like no, and
having to feel that. Even the pushback with my character hooking up with Archie's character, that received a lot of unsavory feedback, So it was that was one of the more difficult things to deal with. I wasn't really too concerned about my performance to the character.
Yeah, I read that there was a period where you were tact for things that Josie did in the show, which is a crazy, crazy idea. How ultimately did you deal with that?
It's really hard. You know, the type of attacks that I was experiencing are not new, but having such constant access to me was a different It's a different experience in our industry, having social media on the Internet, and it's a part of my job and my contract to be socially active and push the show. And I'm also being met with so much vitriol and hate. Not to say that that's all it was, because it definitely wasn't. There are a lot of really wonderful supportive people who
love the work that I do. But trying to mitigate all of the nastiness is something that I am not totally sure how I did. Like sometimes I just had to disengage. And a part of that is also a reason why I have such a difficult relationship with social media. It's hard to be a public figure and manage other people's ability or inability to disassociate you from what you do.
Do you feel like or have you thought about I mean, this is six or seven years before Hallie Bailey was cast as Aerial in The Little Mermaid. It seems like a lot of things that you're talking about right now may be similar things that well, I'm sure she's experienced because I've read about it even now.
Oh, I mean, we can track it back to even Candice Patten when she was cast on The Flash. The amount of of hate and she was constantly being attacked constantly. You know, it's somehow, some way, these things just don't seem to disappear because they're not dealt with, you know. I Unfortunately we are not anomalies. It's actually quite common.
You do Riverdale for three years, then they decide to give you a bump give you a up grade, give you a start another show where you're higher up in the on the on the call sheet. I guess I don't know Katie Keene. So you're playing the same role. Yes, And by the way, you're still playing a sixteen year old, right? Can you still play a sixteen year old?
I mean, listen, yes, I can. Do I want to know? Well, I mean yeah, no, I don't think I would. The only way that I could is if everybody else around me was so older, or I just didn't have to make out with anyone that was also sixteen. But at that point in Katie Keene, my character was aged up. There wasn't an exact age given, but it's like somewhere in their early twenties, but she was no longer a teenager.
Okay, all right? Was it fun for you to keep playing that character in a different world.
I was excited to be home because we actually shot it in New York yea, So it was really really great to just be at home. And I'd say roughly ninety percent of our location were spots that had such deep meaning for me. Because there's a scene between Lucy and I who were sitting out on a park bench, and there's like a big lighthouse or something, and that was up in the heights, and that was like a ten minute walk from the one and only studio I'd ever lived in in New York, the one and only
time I'd ever lived by myself. You know, there were just so many memories that I got to look back at and say, I remember when I was that age, and I always said I'm going to be shooting a TV show one day, I'm going to be in film, I'm going to do this, And then here I was actually doing it in all of these spots. So it was quite special for me.
Do you miss the ears? You're going to wear the ears again? Are you? Are you gonna? Are you gonna play it again? Play it?
Play it. I think if the right thing came along for me to do it again, I wouldn't say no, you know I do. I wouldn't want to be doing the same thing. That's the thing, you know, the character Josie is Josie. But and I wouldn't want to keep, you know, spinning the same wheel at all. I don't have any interest in that. But there's always new people and new ideas being born. And I think if the right fresh idea came along and I felt like I could lend myself to it, and they felt like I
was right for it. Then. Yeah, but right now I don't really have an interest breaking news.
I heard a yes out of that. All right, No, we's just we'll move along. Last year, two years ago, whenever it was you started in another CW show, Tom Swift. Oh, yes, spin off of the Nancy Drew series. Was that a positive experience for you playing a mystery?
Actually it was because that was also the first time that I got to be funny. I used to be real funny, and I just felt like that was gone. You know, Riverdale was a very dangerous town. Nothing funny was ever really happening. And when I got to Tom Swift, I got to be funny, smart, mature, rich because this character was ridiculously rich.
Yeah.
I also got to shoot in Atlanta, and I'd never worked there before, and it was the first time that I was on a set where there were copious amounts of black people. I'm used to being one of like four and that's across the board, and to be in a place where the city is so black, and then to be at work and not feel like I'm on a different planet. You know, there are people there that
look like me, that are working alongside me. And it was the first time that I actually felt myself relaxed, and I didn't realize that I had been held for so long. I was just kind of just a little held in and I felt like, oh, I can, I can kind of chill, which is such a weird thing to have to expe what do you mean.
Wait, what do you mean that you could kind of chill?
It's because once I left Kansas City, which has a very strong black population, and I moved to New York. There are so many different people here. But I was also going to a you could call it. It's a privatized conservatory. It's an institution. You have to pay a lot of money. And so there weren't that many of us there. And for some people, they were intimidated by me. They were intimidated by my confidence, they were intimidated by my talent. They were just intimidated by me being comfortable
as myself. And there was like verbal and nonverbal pushback to that. And because I don't want to be isolated, I then made myself smaller so that these people wouldn't feel as uncomfortable around me that, oh, well, now if I kind of dumb parts of myself down a bit, then everybody can be on the kind of the same level and we don't feel threatened and we can just be.
And so I just sort of lived in that compact state, and not everyone that I was around was like that, but I found it to be necessary, whether it was blatantly said or inferred. So I just began to That was the way that I had to assimilate in order to maintain surviving in these spaces and then getting into a space where I could just be myself, because I've been around people who are like, oh, you're black, black, Like what do you think? Of course, I'm black. I
don't understand. Like, if I'm just myself, like you do, what does that mean?
Tell me what does that mean? I don't know.
It's like people who are because when I like, probably soften some of my countryness, or soften some of my twang, or soften some of my expressiveness. And then if something is said or something happens and my twain comes out or I have a real expressive reaction to it, They're like, oh, I didn't know that was in you, and I'm like what. And part of that is because I've been in situations where I am myself and I'm ostracized for it. I culturally show up as me, and it's a problem for
some people. And when you're not exposed to so many people like that, people repel it. And so in order for me to survive in the spaces where I have to be in order to work, I truncate. And now being in a place where there are people who are like me, and I know or feel like, I'm not going to be judged for just being myself. They're going to understand my twang, they're going to understand my expression, and I can relax and I can just be myself,
you know, I can be my full self. And I feel like I didn't realize that I was only being probably like ninety to ninety five percent of myself. It was just like just this little like just a little like tuck it in just a little bit and then you'll be fine. And now I realize, oh my god, I can just I can let all that go. It was a very strange experience, but that's what that's what it was like.
That's fascinating. It is and I think that the part that had not really occurred to me was the idea of the shooting city too. The location. Yeah, that's an element that I'm not really considered.
Yeah, I wouldn't expect you to. And I say that because we have two very different existences, right, you know, and I didn't even expect it to happen. You know, It's not like I've never been around black people. You know, my whole life I have, I have never been around that many black people. Atlanta got all the black people. It's so great.
Well it's funny because you know, I'm from Atlanta, I know, so that's where I that's where I grew up culturally.
Like that wasn't different for you.
And that's partly what I say. I mean, obviously we have a different experience because you're a black woman and I'm a white male, but also like, yeah, that was you know, and we'll talk about it in a minute when we were working down there. In some ways it was for me, it was it was like, oh no, this is this is like this is what I'm.
Used to exactly exactly. And that is what was so strange for me is that it was something that I would have expected to have even in a place like New York, New York, right, which is you know, just ferociously diverse, and yet it still wasn't really that way on set, the way that it was in Atlanta. And that's how that's what I mean about the ways in which I had to kind of shrink myself because I
was in environments that were not diverse enough. You know, you grew up in Atlanta, so that wasn't that that was normal for you to be around a bunch of black folks, Like that's just normal. And when I'm the one black person that you know, eighteen people are ever around, it's like, oh right, you know, it just it changes the dynamic.
Well, I am so glad that you had such a positive experience on Tom Swift. I'm sorry for you that it didn't get renewed, But uh, I left the door.
Open because of that very reason.
I left the door open for something that was to come. The other Black Girl. You were cast as Hazel the Titular, which to me is just a funny word.
Such a funny word, other black.
Girl to Sinclair Daniels Nella in the show. Talk to me about meeting the folks there and how that project came about for you, Oh you audition seventy nine times.
I auditioned a lot in the sense of my first round of auditions. I went to a producer's session, but I didn't pass to the cam read, and so I was knocked out. I was very very sad about it, and I had actually when I got the audition, I had just bombed and auditioned the day prior, yes on a movie that I really wanted to be a part of, but I did so horrible. And the next day I found out that I had an audition for The Other Black Girl. I saw the book actually in a bookstore
in my neighborhood. It was a bookstore that I'd walked by for two years and never went in, And the one day that I went in, I saw the book on the table and I was like, huh, And so I picked it up and I started reading it, and I was like, oh my god, I love this did the auditions, was feeling really good about it, got knocked out, was heartbroken for about a month or two, I think, And then they came back around and asked to see if I would be willing to come back in and reread,
and I did, and I did that, I think for about a month, and the last round of zoom testing, it was like how many hours we were doing it. It was probably a total collectively of like eight hours, but like four and a half each each time. It was a lot, and I was like, well, I don't have anything else to give, Like, I don't know what else I could do. I was terrified the whole time because I've never played a character like Hazel before. I'm typically more cast type as Anella than I am a Hazel.
And I really wanted to do Hazel because I wanted to see if I could push myself to be you know, mysterious or intimidating. You know, I didn't find myself naturally to be, and so I was so worried that I wouldn't be able to perform.
And then I got awesome. Now we had the luxury the author was on set. How much did you talk to her about Hazel?
You know, I think I spoke more to our directors than I did Zakiyah. But I just kept checking in to make sure that what I was doing was on the right right path. And the things that I wanted to lean into, mostly that I felt comfortable with was her empathy. That's where I am most comfortable because that's so much of who I am as a person, and so when I'm bringing myself to the work, I'm trying to find the things that I can align with in that character. And I really leaned into my empathy for her.
So when it came to the part of being a little nefarious, yeah, I would have to try to find a way to justify that through her empathy. It was very uncomfortable.
How similar do you feel or was there a pressure for you to play the Hazel that was in the book or did you view it as a more an inspiration and you were recreating this character.
I would say, I don't know if inspiration so much as it is just similarly to the way I knew the Archie comics, you know, and Josie. It was just additional information. But I chose to take what the writers were giving me and make it out of that. So I would just entrusted my art into what they were giving me.
In words, Well, that makes sense, you know. By the way, there's been a there's been an actor strike. There's been a writer strike and an actor strike. I don't know if you've heard about that. The last few the last few months, I felt so badly. I told Sinclair this for the two of you, because I felt like your work in the show was so tremendous and I felt so sad that you weren't able to get the attention and to ensure that as many people as possible could
see the show. I mean, here's a good thing about streaming. It's still there, so.
Yeah, and people are still discovering it, which is great.
People are still discovering it now, which is great. But I felt so badly for the two of you. How difficult was it to not be able to talk about this thing that I know you were so proud of.
It was really heartbreaking.
Brian.
Yeah, I have worked hard for a long time and to be a part of something that I was so utterly proud of, not just for the work that we did, but for the people that I got to work with, you know, our culture at work. I loved coming to work, for the people, for the experience, for the work. It was just I loved being at work. I really wanted to share this, not just for myself but for everyone else.
And I wanted to get the chance to go on like daytime television I've never done any of those things before. I've never had that experience, and this would have been that chance. And it was very, very it was a hard pill to swallow, you know. I am and have been in support of both strikes wholeheartedly, and the sacrifice that we had to take was not being able to give our show more attention. It was really, really, really, it was really hard.
Yeah, I know, I think one of the unintended casualties that happened out of it. You felt good about the culture there on the other Black Girl, Oh my god.
I loved it. I just loved it. It was honestly, it was so chill, you know, but like and chill with respect to the fact that, you know, what we do day in and day out can be very chaotic. You know. The days were so long, we were block shooting the entire season. That puts a lot of strain on everyone. And to still come in and kind of feel like I'm hanging out with my friends and we're
also going to make this thing. The last time I felt that was like in high school, you know, like when you're just school's over and it's after school and now we get to it's play rehearsal, you know, like right, that's what it felt like. And it was also just so great to be introduced to vets and to share a space with them. And that's right.
I haven't been I haven't been referred to as a VET before.
I hope you take it as a compliment and not an insult. Well, I don't believe that, Yeah, Bryan, I need convince.
Me no, But I mean when I showed up on set, it must have it must have been just it was unnervesting for you. Oh stop it, stop it. Hey, Look, I mean I attempt to make everyone as comfortable as possible, which is so.
Funny considering the character that you had to play was unbearable, which is why it was. It was just so great.
I know my time there, I wasn't there for that long, but I felt a real sense of community and sort of what you're describing that like, let's get together and quite frankly in a way, very much like the office in terms of feeling a real sense of no ego or self aggrandizing and just like, how can we make this the best that it can be? How can we tell this story in the best way.
I really felt that, Yeah, that's it, exactly right. We were all advocating for the same thing. We all just wanted to make a really good show, and we all wanted to do the best we could to provide that and to also, you know, keep the day moving, keep keep the ball rolling, and keep everybody happy and healthy and you know, said and hydrated so that we could make this thing and go home because we were under so much pressure to shoot so much in such a little amount of time.
Now I got nothing from Sinclair on this shoot. I shouldn't have said that. Damn it. I shouldn't have said that. Now, I'm not going to get anything out of you. Damn it.
Oh, I feel like I know what you're about to ask me, and I'm going to take the same thing. Well, go ahead. Uh.
There was an unexpected hiatus that happened. Oh yeah, Suddenly there was a period of time that we were to be shooting that we were not shooting, and there was some discussion that I just heard that it appeared as though there was some reworking to be done to the later episodes. This is what I recall being told, and after watching the show, loving the show, and also reading the book and loving the book, there was a divergence.
I would say that occurred in the two stories, and to me, it appeared as though it was done to potentially come back for a second season. Do you believe that to be true? Was that something you heard or not?
I did not know you were going to say that.
No, I did not hear this, But you know what I'm you know what I'm referring to, right.
I think I know what you're referring to, but like the reasoning behind it, No, I have no that I don't know.
Brian.
You know you've been doing this longer than I have, but I've been doing it for a hot minute, and I know not to trust anything, like you could be doing something that's so great and you it never sees the light of day again. And then there people who do.
I know that?
No, No, I'm horrible, and then they go, you know you just don't.
I don't know, no, but to me, so, let me be clear that the story in the book ends, right, there's not a sequel to that story, right, But at the end of the series there is open. It is more open than it is closed. And that was my that was my question. But you're saying you didn't hear anything about this.
No, I didn't. And even to that, to that thought, everything that I've been a part of has always been open ended, whether it was from a book or not. And so when I signed on, it was never made clear that it was going to be like a what are they called. It's not a mini series, it's well, there's a.
Mini series or continual series.
Contractually, there was no verbiage that insinuated that this wouldn't that this would stop after the tenth episode.
So I know, right, But what I'm saying is is that to me, there was a clear decision made to leave it more open than in the novel.
Oh okay, I set it to me three times and I'm like, oh no, wait, that's what he's saying.
I'm not trying to trick you. This is not this is not like, yeah, I'm not trying to trick you.
I know you're not. I'm just trying. I'm trying to get on the same train, but I keep missing the car. Well, I think I'm in the same car now. And I did not hear anything like that. I don't.
I don't know, So you don't know. You don't know why there was a pause in production I know.
Why there was a pause, but I don't know that that choice of redirection was solely to leave it open for a second season. I don't, I don't. I do know why the pause, but not the full life.
Fine done, don't know you do you want to come back?
Oh my god?
Yes, I mean, is there a way that Colin comes back? I mean, that's really all I'm concerned about. Is there a way that he can redeem himself in some way?
Redemption? I don't think it's in Colin wheel house. Although you know there's nothing wrong. Life is cyclical, history repeats itself. There's always going to be Colin. Colin can always keep coming back. You know. It's just a question of whether or not people have learned from Collin.
Very very true.
Well, I don't see why Colin can't show up again.
I agree. Well, it would be my pleasure to work with you again on this or anything else. I think you are fantastic in the show. I want to congratulate you, and I want America in the world to see it and your work. The other Black Girl streaming now on Hulu.
That's right. Thank you so much, Brian, I really appreciate it. I appreciate you.
Thank you. I appreciate you, and it was such my pleasure to work with you, and I hope for nothing but the best for you in continuing this show or something else very soon. Thank you all right, thanks for coming on.
You're welcome.
Ashley. You are such a talent and a joy. Thank you so much for being here. I just feel lucky that I get to work with people like you. Now, I promise this is going to be my last plug for the show, but I've been holding it in for four months now, so I think I've earned this. Watch The Other Black Girl on Hulu. You can binge it right now if you want. It's all out there and
it's really really good. And I'm not just saying it because I'm in some of it, but because of people like Ashley Sinclair, Bellamy Young, Eric McCormick, Carcel Movey, Langston Kerman, are creators and writer Zakiya and Rashida Jones, so many great people. It's smart and funny, it's a little scary and complex and nuanced, and it's just it's just good. So meet me back here next week, when I'll catch up with another amazing guest about what they've been sitting
on these past few months. Until then, have a really really good week. Off the Beat is hosted and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive producer Lang Lee. Our senior producer is Diego Tapia. Our producers are Liz Hayes, Hannah Harris, and Emily Carr. Our talent producer is Ryan Papa Zachary, and our intern is Ali Amir Saheen. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by the one and only Creed Bratton.