The Episode That Turned Tracy Into A Bitcoin Bull

right into it. I love that, all right. So we're going to be speaking with a veteran of the industry to the to the extent that such a thing can even be described, uh these days. We're gonna be speaking to Melton Demure's. She's the chief strategy officer at coin Shares, very visible, very big follow on, someone great to follow on Twitter, media, etcetera. Melton, thank you very much for joining us. Hey, great to be here, Thanks for having me. If you're a veteran, right, it's okay, it's it's heard

at this point, right. I mean what you said is correct. You know, I've been in this industry for six years now. Um, if six years makes one a veteran, you know, I think it just speaks to how young this industry is. Yeah, I mean I think I read this weekend that it was just the twelve anniversary of the Bitcoin white paper. So I guess that means literally half of the time that the industry has been in existence, you've been involved

in it. And I mean and arguably, you know, in one personally, I started interacting with bitcoin, like the way you bought or you didn't buy bitcoin. You would go to a website to bitcoin faucet, you know, by bitcoin on Craigslist. You would send money to Japan to buy bitcoin on on cox. So arguably, you know, the industry

didn't really exist really until or so. So I know we skipped the intro and I think that's in odd thoughts first, but it kind of it kind of speaks to, um, I guess, the craziness of the year that bitcoin has actually had. So I'm looking at the chart right now, bitcoin is hovering around thirteen thousand, and the amazing thing about bitcoin, I guess, is just how many times it seems to have come back from the dead in some

way or the other. And I will admit, as a journalist who has been covering the space for a long time, I think at this point, I've written at least three obituaries for bitcoin um in one way or another. I think I did one in like two thousand twelve, and maybe another one in in two thousand seventeen or two thousand eighteen. Why has it come back this year? Look, Bitcoin as as an asset right behaves UM in a

cyclical manner. There are shorter sort of cycles that occur, and then there's a larger secular trend which has sort of been up into the right because in each successive high Bitcoin hits a higher high UM and the lows are not quite as the prior quite as low as the prior lows. So I think what you're seeing here is Bitcoin operates typically you know we've seen so far,

isn't it roughly to your cycles? Although it seems like that pace is now in increasing and as a result, you know, there's sort of short term interim cyclical behavior, but a larger term secular trend that obviously myself and many other people in the industry building firms are are looking for UM and tracking against. What what do you do there? Yeah? So Quin shares a great question, Joe. We are a financial services firm. We are best known

as an asset manager. We manage one point one billion in assets in the form of publicly listed exchange traded products. They're traded throughout Europe under the XPT Provider brand. Uh So we've been in that business for about five years. We're also in the trading business, venture capital business, and a variety of other financial services products. That's what we do. So one thing I'm curious about, given given the role that you just described, I keep seeing bitcoin described as

a diversification strategy this year, especially for corporate treasurers. Is that something that you're actually seeing in the marketplace at the moment. Yeah, so, so we've actually done a lot of research on bitcoin as a portfolio diversifier. I think it's certainly true that in March, um, you know, investment committees corporate treasures around the world looked at the makeup of their portfolio and realized something probably needs to change.

Now that we're entering into November and coming close to the end of the year, we're in a really interesting sort of environment. Um. First, you know, I used to work in corporate treasury before I got into bitcoin, so part of me feels an affinity for corporate treasurers around the world who are looking at the universe of investimbal assets.

And at the end of the day, you know, when I was in corporate treasuring in I was at Exxonmobile, and I recall at that point in time, our cost of capital was effectively zero, meaning we could borrow at very very low rates, and that environment I think continues to persist for many corporates, particularly in the US, and then we could deploy that capital um in terms of you know, opportunities to to earn yield on that capital.

We could actually deploy that capital into the treasury market, into the RPE market and earn a fairly healthy return three to five percent with very minimal risk. That environment doesn't exist anymore. For corporate treasures were in a zero

interest rate environment. Target inflation is two to two point five percent, And so you know, for a treasure who's looking at opportunity cost, the idea of losing two percent per year to inflation while holding treasuries that yield effectively zero, or holding ten years that maybe yield you know what was it to to two point five percent, that's not

really an attractive proposition. So I think across the board, treasures investors, people who have capital to allocate, or who have cash that they're trying to deploy towards productive uses, which at this point I think is is most investors they're looking at the universe of options and they need something different. Right, we've seen gold how to break out. I think a lot of investors, particularly individual investors as well as some institutional investors, have been allocating into gold

as a diversifier. And I think what's been interesting to observe. You know, if you as you've mentioned, bitcoin has been through numerous cycles. It's been through up, ups and downs. I think historically, one of the core arguments we've always heard when we speak to institutions, corporates, and investors about bitcoin is concerns around its volatility, concerns around its cyclical nature, concerns around on its lack of correlation or now it's

correlation to macro markets. And I think for the first time, what's happened is bitcoin doesn't exist in a bubble. It operates in a larger market, operates in a larger political and social environment. For the first time, bitcoin actually is less volatile than equities, and so I think in many ways, a lot of the thinking around how to approach portfolio construction has started to shift as investors and allocators look

at the reality of the situation. And so I would say this narrative of bitcoin being a portfolio diversifier is certainly something we're hearing more of, but I would just caveat that by saying, you know, by no means is this the prevalent mindset. I think as we look at most firms and and most of our clients, it's really only a small handful who have taken the leap into bitcoin.

I think for many though, bitcoin still feels in many ways reputation sationally risky, and many firms, particularly asset managers, are still waiting for validation from a blue chip firm that will normalize sort of the entry into bitcoin. So, by no means do I think there's a wall of

institutional money that's just going to start buying up bitcoin. So, just on that note, a really practical question, but if you were a corporate treasurer, how would you actually allocate into bitcoin at the moment, what's the most efficient way of doing it? Yeah, so I think other variety of ways of doing it. The way it's been done to date is uh, spot buying so UM. Fortunately, micro Strategy and Square both wrote up a brief documents on how

they entered the bitcoin market. So what we've seen is most treasures spot buying and then uh SO buying on the open market using a sort of a time weighted average price UM over a specific duration, and then custody ing the bitcoin with a custode and that specializes in

a long term storage of bitcoin. However, UM in the middle of this month, we're gonna be hosting a crypto credit summit where we'll be focusing on the emergence of a credit market around crypto assets, particularly UM in relation to people utilizing bitcoin to earn yield um through lending it out to people to trade, so they're a variety

of other ways. On the trading side, you know, we look a lot at arbitrage opportunities between the futures forward curve and stop markets and sort of playing that arbitrage, I think is an interesting way to gain short term exposure without having so much long term risk. We also see people buying structured products like our xpt provider product. In the US, the Gray Scale Bitcoin trust is popular.

Canada has its own bitcoin et F, so there are number of structured products that are now emerging, and then the last option is through a fund um And in those sort of fund world we see variety of different strategies. A lot of them are very much of venture strategy, where they may have and our location to bitcoin and tokens. Some are a quant driven strategy, whether actively trading around bitcoins volatility, or maybe bitcoin and other highly liquid assets.

So they are a variety of different ways. But to date, what we've seen on the corporate side at least is primarily spot buying and then putting that bitcoin with a custodian m So, so many questions, right, here's one that so Tracy mentioned in the beginning as a journalist, she's maybe written three obituaries. Thank you for making that point again, Joe, thank you, But Tracy, you're probably gonna write like two or three more before all's said and done, So do

you print those out? Well? So, this is the interesting thing, all right, this is the interesting thing. I've written three obituaries for bitcoin, but each obituary for bitcoin has been about the death of a bitcoin for a particular purpose.

And this is what really interests me in crypto, because when it started, it was all about you know, disintermediation, all about not trusting the central bank, and then fast forward to and now everyone's talking about intermediation and how they want big asset managers to get into the space. So I'm sure in a year or two I'll probably be writing the obituary for that particular idea. But it's

always a different sort of facet of bitcoin comes up. Yeah, And look, I think this evolution of the narrative is a function of the world changing and Bitcoin's place in the world changing. Right again, I think the hard part

here is Bitcoin doesn't exist in the isolated vacuum. Right as the world changes, so does the market, So do other asset classes, so does bitcoin, And so I think the hard part it is and and the interesting part for me, like, I think we're finally in a in a market narrative where bitcoin actually starts to make sense. We've been in a bowl market for the last eleven years, really,

since the last financial crisis. When the Bitcoin white Paper was written and I was a little baby leaving college, I thought I was going to be an investment banker. That didn't happen, so I ended up working in the energy industry, which maybe in a way, I turned out to be a good choice because I ultimately ended up in bitcoin. But look, this is the first time that we're watching bitcoin in a down market. You know, we've

had two back to back quarters of economic contraction. I think we can officially say we're now in our recession, and I think bitcoin's behavior in our session is very different than bitcoin's behavior in a booming macro mark good. So all of these sort of narratives coming together constantly are changing Bitcoin's form and fun function in the broader

economic system that we're we're all a part of. So I think, um, you know this, this evolution of narrative is going to continue until bitcoin reaches a point of maturity, and that may take another three, five, seven, ten years. Here's something, here's like a contradiction that I see that I help me wrap my head around it with a bitcoin. So it's like, there's this just this incredible industry, community, movement,

culture associated It's extremely impressive. On the other hand, and in a way, you know, it's it's extraordinarily large in a sense. According I'm looking um at one of the measures right now that the total value of all outstanding bitcoin. Sometimes it's called the market cap is two billion. That's a lot. On the other hand, that's like a sort of medium sized software I p O these days, or maybe a little bit bigger than some like red hot cloud company. Yeah, And so like is Bitcoin bigger small?

Because on the one hand, like it's extraordinary, on the other hand, like it's like a regular like sort of like middle of the stock Joe, I mean, Joe, you answered the question. Bitcoin's teeny tiny apple has enough spare cash on its balance sheet to buy the entire Bitcoin market cap. Bitcoin's teeny tiny, right, And if we look at the universe of assets and asset allocators, that coin continues to be miniscule in relation to where it started.

Bitcoin's massive. Right, Everything is is relative. I mean I remember Bitcoin trating at two fifty dollars and we were like, oh my god, and we just broke a billion dollar market cap, like this is huge. Um, So like everything's relative. But again, I think this is part of the challenge.

It's sort of a chicken and egg problem. Until Bitcoin's market cap gets larger and the market gets farmer, liquid market gets deeper, you're not going to see people allocating to bitcoin in size because the market cap is simply too small, right, So this is actually this leads to something that I wanted to ask, which is can bitcoin b both a viable financial asset and one that's expected to largely go up in value and a method of

payment at the same time. I think this is a great question, Tracy, and I think here again, what's great about bitcoin is, uh, so much of the way people articulate bitcoin is really tied to their personal view and their personal beliefs. And what's interesting is that one asset can have so many different permutations, so many different characterizations UM that that lend themselves to whoever is sort of

you know, doing the pontificating. In my view, I don't need to use my bitcoin um to pay for coffee, right. I think one of the criticisms of bitcoin has been like, oh, you can't pay for coffee using bitcoin. Well, great, because I don't want to say, spend my bitcoin on coffee. It's really really not my intention holding bitcoin. There are a lot of other cryptocurrencies UM and in particular even US dollar assets that are blockchain based that will allow

me to buy my coffee. So when I think about bitcoin for for me personally, and I think for many allocators that we talked to. The view on bitcoin is this is really more like a savings account, right, This

is really more like a savings technology. And the majority of people who are holding bitcoin, who are using bitcoin, at least in today's instantiation, are not using it for transactional purposes necessarily, They're using it as a store value and as a form of sound money and so Um again, I do think that narrative has shifted over over time. In the past, I certainly have used bitcoin to pay for things. In the future, I may use bitcoin to

favor things. Sometimes it's actually cheaper and faster to use bitcoin than it is to use my bank account, which is really fascinating and very sad in a way that in the your twenty you know, in this fintech boom, it's it's still incredibly difficult to to send money. Um. But look, I think, you know, beauties in the eye of the beholder. In my view, most investors are not buying bitcoin with the intention of spending it in the future.

It's really about having a savings technology. It's about having the ability to sort of remove your assets from the existing financial system. Um and Joe, I definitely recognize the point you've made earlier that you know, in today's bitcoin environment, everyone's becoming an intermediary. So in a way, you know, it's slightly antithetical to the original stated goal of bitcoin, which was to minimize the role of intermediaries in our

financial lives. What happened in up the end of March with bitcoin, and because you know, obviously the all of all of financial markets sort of collapse, but bitcoin, you know, for all to talk about, bitcoin is a diversifier. I think it had one of its biggest short term still off either. Ever, do you feel like you have a good handle on how the volatility that we saw in market overall translated into sort of like liquidations and margin calls from this asset asset that's very, uh, sort of

apart from traditional financial markets. Yeah. Look, I think what happened at the end of March is symptomatic of how people act in times of crisis. People panicked, right, and in a time when everything's going down, you're panicking, you're trying to sell everything that's not bolted down. And bitcoin, right, just like every other asset, is highly salable, highly liquid. So we saw a lot of sell off in in bitcoin because people were trying to take risk off the table.

They were uncertain, you know, they were fearful of the future. So we saw broad based sell off. I think what happened in bitcoin that exacerbated the sell off, you know, we saw it if you present and drop in a twenty four hour period, was the result of the fact, you know, in bitcoin. And one of the things that's unique a round about the bitcoin market structurally is the derivatives market um in many ways has outpaced the spot market, and in many ways the forward curve as driving what's

happening in the spot market. So I call this the tail wagging the dog in a way. So right now bitcoin is in contango, right, but for a long time, bitcoin futures were in backwardation, meaning bitcoin in December was cheaper than holding bitcoin today. And so there are a number of different firms in the bitcoin ecosystem that are that that spread between the future expected price of bitcoin in today's price of bitcoin was interesting that happened in

March in the midst of the sell off. I think a lot of people had been positioned into bitcoin, going into sort of this expected financial contraction. A lot of people are like, Okay, this is Bitcoin's time to shine, you know, it's it's an uncorrelated asset. Bitcoin is going to do incredibly well, just like gold. And when that didn't happen, what you saw was sort of a cascade

of liquidations that then further dragged down the price. And so um, one of the benefits those a lot of weekends got taken out of the market, a lot of that cell pressure was removed. But I do think, you know, um, a lot of people are expecting bitcoin to behave on a very short term cycle, and the me to react very quickly to money printing like inflation doesn't happen overnight.

So I think part of its people just understanding that this market cycle, this market narrative will take much longer than expected to play out because inflation hasn't even come close to setting in yet. Do you think the inflation hedge is still a big reason that people are buying crypto even though we've had years and years and years at this point of central banks undershooting their inflation. Inflation is coming, Tracy, It's just a matter of time. It's

right around the corner, haven't you heard? But Joe and Tracy like, look, this is the great thing I love the high quote, which is, um, the purpose of economics is teaching men how little they understand. Right, So right, I've but shared the quote, but it's something like this, which you know, I studied economics and math and you know you you pontificate, but you know there's always the wrinkle. Look, um, I hate to use this phrase, but like, we're unprecedented time.

I think nobody has a crystal ball and if they did, you know, they certainly would be trading it instead of talking about it on a podcast. But look, at the end of the day, we haven't seen this before. And to your point, right, we've we've printed a lot of money, um, inflation hasn't really set in. I think it's it's more likely that we'll have deflation um rather than inflation. So I do you think the inflation narrative is important around bitcoin?

If we look at you know, the Paul Tutor Jones of the world, if we look at the micro strategies and squares of the world, if we look at this developing narrative around bitcoin is an effective portfolio diversifier and bitcoin is an effective hedge in the current market environment. Much of that narrative is in fact centered around um bitcoin's behavior in an inflationary period and the fact that bitcoin is a deflationary asset by by nature, and there

are no asteroids we can mine for more bitcoin. I'm like unlike gold because asteroid mining is the thing that also comes up on regular basis. What about um solar powered satellites that get extremely cheap energy that could happen, right, Yeah, totally. And look, one of the great things that bitcoin is,

it's a money batteries. So places in the world where there's cheap access to alternative energy that cannot be utilized for industry and creation of economic value, those regions of the world are now looking at bitcoin as an effective monetary battery, right, a way of transforming stranded alternative energy into monetary energy in the form of bitcoin. So, in all seriousness, and I actually do think that's a pretty interesting,

pretty interesting avenue to be explored. In all seriousness. I want to go back to something you said um earlier, because I think it's probably the most sort of like provocative, controversial thing in this whole conversation and the thing that I'll piste a lot of people off. Potentially you said, uh, as far as you can tell outside if you're there,

there really is not that much. The wall of institutional money, the big title wave that everyone thinks it's coming any day now or all these huge funds are going to allocate like two percent and the bitcoin is going to go to the moon. Um, you don't think it's really happened. I don't think it's happening right now. I think it's going to continue to be a slow trickle. Like at the end of the day, you have to remember, there's

a process that someone goes through. Right now, the part of the cycle we're in is people are okay entertaining conversations about bitcoin, which wasn't the case even a year ago. The world's largest banks are recognizing, like, hey, it's okay to entertain a conversation about bitcoin. But you have to remember, um that at the end of the day, right someone being willing to learn and someone actually making decision to

do something, they're two very different things. And I think again, you know, you look at the people who are allocating capital by and large. You know, Warren Buffett didn't invest in tech stocks until what like the late two thousands. You know, people aren't paid to take a high level of risk. That's not their function. Most people are in the role of preserving capital rather than pursuing growth, particularly

intentionially high risk assets. So I think again, just the incentive structure that's in place for institutional asset managers isn't necessarily, you know, to be out on the frontier taking risk. They're learning about it, they're educating their clients about it, they're looking at different opportunities to provide access. But I don't think anyone's racing out to buy bitcoin quite yet, and I think it's going to continue to take time.

And the bitcoin market also is going to continue to evolve. Right. It really has even possible until to buy bitcoin options in in size right, and today the size the option market, you know is multiple billions of dollars a day are

are traded. So the fact that the market is still really mature, the fact that people are still early in their learning process, the fact that there are only small number of companies that can even cater to institutions, I think all of these are just indicative of the fact that it's still early um. And at the end of the day, I think part of what's also changing is the the p the clientele um of large asset managers

is starting to change, right. I think you see this with um, you know, the acquisition of of e Trade, uh, the acquisition of some of these fin techs and retail oriented brokerage platforms like asset management is looking at avenues for for growth in higher margin products and services, and it could very well be that crypto provides that that avenue. But I think the format takes will not look or feel anything like Bitcoin in its sort of pure form um.

It'll sort of be, you know, a bitcoin depository your seat, like you get an I owe you for for a slice of bitcoin. So there's one other thing that has outperformed even Bitcoin this year, and that is ethere um um. And and this sort of gets to you even better

than Bitcoin. But this kind of also gets to a criticism that you hear about cryptocurrency is quite a lot, which is that even though bitcoin itself, um, the supply Bitcoin is limited and it's deflationary, you have all these competing coins, and you have competing cryptocurrencies that could basically start at any time and then take off in one way or another. Why do you think ethereum has outperformed this year? Yeah? Um, I think ethereums out performance is

um very simple. Ethereum this year has had a breakout year because of the rise of UM something called defy or decentralized finance. Basically, it's UM using the sort of smart contract programmable money feature of ethereum to create all of these entirely blockchain based investment contracts and interest generating

opportunities UM. And the way this actually surfaces, and it's interesting to look at if you look at the velocity of ethereum right the velocity of ethereum is much higher right now than the velocity of Bitcoin, meaning on average um ether's total market cap, the amount of Ether out on the market is traded and turned over on a faster clip than than Bitcoin. And what this means is people are actively out in the market using Ether much

much more. And I think there's also been a really interesting consumptive demand for Ether where the way you interact with a lot of these contracts is by utilizing ethereum as the asset that you sort of post is collateral to earn yield in these new tokens UM. And so again I think it's really been a breakout your for the functionality and sort of this emerging use case of ethereum and and it's technology and the ecosystem of assets built on top of ethereum. Bitcoin doesn't have that, right.

Bitcoin has Lightning, which is sort of a payments technology that's built on top of bitcoin, but bitcoin doesn't have this whole ecosystem of programmable financial assets built on top of it. And so I think this has been really interesting trying to observe. We're certainly watching it closely. Our largest product is obvious their Bitcoin tracker, but our Ether tracker now has over two d fifty million in a

u M and continues to grow. So I think the interest in in ethereum growing has been really great for the space. And look, at the end of the day, you know, we're very excited about there being multiple assets that people are going to allocate to. However, when it comes to institutions, I think bitcoin is going to be the stasset they get comfortable with, just because it has

had such a long history. I think a lot of the data that exists around bitcoin and and uh, understanding the bitcoin network and the security of the bitcoin network is is much more robust. And then if we look particularly at market infrastructure, bitcoin options volumes and are ten

times out of ethereum options volumes. So I think while there's a lot of interest in ethereum from people who are native to the space and who are deploying ether in the space and sort of these consumptive new find finance applications that create effectively liquidity sync for Ether, I think Bitcoin continues sort of dominate the narrative when it comes to the quote unquote institutional market, which I think is the one that we track more closely UM in

our day to day at cooin shares. Is there ever gonna be a UM a US Bitcoin e t F or by the time that will exist, do you think that bitcoin will be easily purchasable on enough different platforms everywhere that it won't really be necessary. Yeah, this is the question we ask ourselves as well, Joe, I think, Um, at the end of the day, you know, US bitcoin ETF,

we haven't seen it yet. It does not look promising right now, I think, Uh, you know, SEC chairman Jake Clayton has repeatedly stated that, you know, it's very unlikely under his tenure that we see such a product come to market. But at the end of the day, you know, E t s are a huge part of the ussset management market and um, you well, we've observed, certainly from having our product in the European market which n t

N it's fully clatteralized. With the underlying is people really like having the ability to buy digital assets in their retirement account, right, particularly if this is a secular bet. The ability to point click and buy exposure to bitcoin or ether or basket of assets in my tax advantaged savings account right an investment account, that that's really a

active um today. Their number of firms like Kingdom Trust which is a large custodian um, and a handful of others for providing people with the ability to buy bitcoin in their four oh one case and with their I rash still very nascent. I do think a U S

Bitcoin ETF will be impactful. I do think though we're seeing more and more avenues developing, and I'm not sure you know how many folks will be left who want to buy bitcoin but are unable to you know, come to three years from now when the SEC gets to point where it's ready to approve such a product. But what we are seeing right is other jurisdictions are innovating.

Other jurisdictions are launching bitcoin ETFs and structured bitcoin products, and at the end of the day, you know, it's only a matter of time until we see one of those asset managers perhaps successfully cross listing in in the US. Wouldn't surprise me. We've certainly seen that unful before a coin shares, and you know, it's it's been interesting to

see what the response been like from from regulators. But at the end of the day, other jurisdictions Germany, Switzerland, Canada, as I mentioned, even in Japan are providing consumers with the ability to buy exposure to bitcoin in a trusted, easy way through their existing brokerage account, and I think that continues to be really important channel for the US investors, and I think it's a real shame that it doesn't exist any other things that you think are sort of

top of mine for you before we go. Look, I think it's it's been a crazier it's going to continue to be a crazier, Tracy. I look forward to reading the next Bitcoin obitually I'll sing it, yeah, you should get some some good quotes in there. But look, um, it's it's been such an interesting six years, um, and I'm sure that the next six years will be even wilder than my wildest dreams. So I'm excited. Great, well, we'll have you back in a uh six years. The

Melton thank you so much for joining us. Thanks to

thanks tasty, that great thanks. That's fun. You know, Tracy, I thought you you made a really interesting observation talking about how bitcoin obituaries over time aren't necessarily obituaries of the currency itself, but all the different use cases that we've heard, you know, payments cut out, visa, smart contracts, etcetera, all of those sort of fade, and I think Meltip sort of corroborted that, which is that there are sort of like this like narrative is I don't know if

the word I'm looking for. It's like it's like, over time, various narratives fail and then we're sort of like left with like some core thing. In these days, everyone talks about it as a savings technology. Yeah, you know, having had that conversation, I think I have to I have to confess something to eacho Oh, I think I'm actually

bullish on bitcoin. But you know what it's because yeah, I know, breaking news, but I think I'm bullish on bitcoin because I'm bullish on people's I guess cognitive dissonance or the market's ability to generate narratives for this particular asset place, because I realized, no matter what happens to bitcoin, there are so many people who are committed to it at this point, so many careers that are sort of writing on it, and a lot of money that's writing

on it, that something else will always step into take its place. You know, people will find a new bull case for it or a new use case for it, no matter what happens. So I guess I'm bullish on people's create civity for justifying cryptocurrency, and therefore I am bullish on cryptocurrency itself. This is really big. I think we've gotta title this. This is the conversation that turned

Tracy bullish on bitcoin. But I actually think what you say is like logical, Like at some point it's like enough obituaries get written and then they don't really like pan out, or like bitcoin survives or manages to find a new narrative and picks up new people and picks up new institutional avenues of money that it doesn't seem like it's going anywhere, and then is melted pointed out,

is it's like still pretty small. So I think I think you make a good point, and I think this is a really historic moment for bitcoin that is happening right now. It's the perfect the most modern financial asset, I think, because everyone can just project their own sort of dreams for an ideal economy and social system and financial system onto bitcoin. So yeah, that's how thinking about it now. This is pretty big. Well, well done to our guest for convincing it that's too big. Um, shall

we leave it there? Let's leave it there. This has been another episode of the All Thoughts podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me on Twitter at Tracy Alloway and I'm Joe Wisn'tal. You can follow me on Twitter at the Stalwart. And you should follow our guest on Twitter,

Melton de Mirrors. She's at melt Underscore dem follow our producer Laura Carlson at Laura M. Carlson, followed the Bloomberg head of podcast for Incesca Levi at Francesco Today and check out all of our podcasts under the handle at podcasts. Thanks for listening three years year