Poker Legend Phil Hellmuth Has Advice That Traders Should Hear

in trading. Of course, it was a great episode. Yeah, that was a really fun one. But there was something

he said that really stuck with me. I mean, it was a fascinating conversation, but one of the things that has really stuck with me in my mind that he said when he was talking about the great hedge fund traders of all time, whether it's people like Orge Sorrows or Paul Tutor Jones, he said, what they really had in common, even more than some sort of uncanny knack, was just a real discipline about survival, real instinct for

risk management, not getting blown up, not destroying themselves. Yeah, I remember he said, specifically, the worst thing that can happen to you is basically if you lose all your money, because then you're you're dead right, You're out of the game. You're out of the game, exactly right. And so a lot of the people that we call legends these days, that we venerate are people who primarily have survived this long and somehow they figured out a way to not die,

not blow up, and of course in market, uh, pitfalls abound. Yeah, I would broadly agree with that. What's the point today? Our guest is someone else who has done an extraordinary job of surviving, of not blowing up, of risk management, bank roll management, except um, they're not are not a trader per se. Okay, I'm starting to get a little bit nervous. Who is it? You should be nervous because I know we're gonna be talking about one of the one of the topics that which you feel um at

which you feel the least at ease. But I'll just jump right into it. Today we're going to be talking to one of the most successful World Series of Poker participants ever. He's a phil Hell you youth. He's won fourteen bracelets at the World Series of Poker across multiple tables um. He has made fifty four final tables and in his poker career. According to an a m A he did on Reddit last year, he's made eighteen million dollars playing poker. That number is probably higher since that

was a year ago. And I think anyone who has had this much success in poker clearly has something to teach people about risk management and bank roll management and discipline and keeping their emotions in check, and many of the skills that a poker player or that a that

A eight or need to survive. So, Joe, I'm totally on board with the analogy, but let me say in all honesty, due to my complete ignorance of the game of poker, as well as the fact that I looked up Phil's bio online and saw that he's called the poker Brat, and then I made the massive mistake of watching a YouTube video featuring his top five table side explosions. I'm a little bit nervous about this one, but I

trust you. I'm sure it'll be a good conversation. Well hopefully we won't be at the receiving end of any tirade. Phil Holmia, thank you very much for joining us. Okay, first of all, those tides have tons of millions of you so that's a good thing. I think, Uh well,

I don't walk around like that every day. So they and in this this day and age of televised poker, I'm sure it doesn't hurt to have a reputation as being one of the more one of the more colorful players that I watched those it's like a train wreck, but I think traders can kind of you know, I mean, you're you're in a great position and everything, all indicators could be the best position you've ever seen, and then all of a sudden, for some reason, I don't know,

there's a forest fire in your stock. The direction I would I would be throwing a tirade at that point. So so that's the interesting thing is that you do have this reputation for throwing tirades. As Tracy mentioned, your nickname is the poker brat, but you're obviously very successful at poker, and so those tirades don't seem to translate into terrible play. In fact, you played quite well. So the popular term is you go on till you start getting emotional, you start making you know, bad bets that

are driven by emotion. It doesn't seem like your tirades lead to bad bets. Well, that's true. I mean, I think I get rid of a lot of the emotion in the moment and the past in my twenties when that happened, I would definitely get on tilt. And I mean, of course, there's huge similarities there between trading and you know, and poker and getting emotional, and you know, even more analogies when you're talking about when you're buried in poker,

when you're stuck the same thing in trading. You know, when you've lost a lot of money in a particular day, you might make some bad decisions near the end of that day. When you're losing a lot of money in a poker game, you might make some bad decisions, you know, near the end of that game. And it's there's some

definitely similarities there. Interesting. As I was hearing you guys open the show, I was thinking, Um, I was thinking that a lot of the guys that have been around forever, both in your industry and somebody like a Warren Buffett, all kind of share the same thing, and that's not to risk too much of their money on any given day. And that's something that you know, I've been made fun of a criticized it in the poker world, especially by

people that don't understand. So the criticisms is not fair, um, because I wouldn't risk enough a higher percentage of my net worth choosing instead to be staked. For example, there's a series of six poker tournaments I'm about to enter and I needed to raise six hundred and six hundred sixty seven thousand, two very specific number. UM. I emailed my friends. I raised it in four hours to play

poker tournaments. Now it's a very high risk investment, including a three K. But you know, I'll probably get criticized because you know, I'll probably have of myself in those tournaments, opting to look a little bit more like a hedge fund and taking you know, fifteen percent free role and

then putting some of my own cash in. Joe and I have spoken about this on this podcast before, and that's the idea of a mathematical formula that basically dictates the ideal of ount of money that you should bet on each trade or each hand a poker, and that's the Kelly criterion. Is something like that something that you would use when you actually play poker. Kelly criteria is very interesting. Um. You know, we've discussed us for a long time in poker as well. I I mean, I'm

probably even more conservative than that. So you know, I've understood for for a long time. Um, you know, I was married. I've been married and have you know, kids for forever. Basically my sons are not and twenty three. And you know, I couldn't if I made one bad decision at the table, it could really affect my life. And I had a wife and two kids depending on me,

and I couldn't make those decisions. I remember playing poker, remember strolling into a poker room in l a And around two thousand four, and you know, I kind of kind of feels like all eyes are on me when

I walk in a poker room. I feel like a U. S. President when I'm an the World Series of Poker, everybody staring at me, and you know, and I remember walking in and sitting down at like a hundred two hundred game, and there was an eight and six hundred game, and there was a four and eight hundred game, and there was a three and six hundred game. And here I sat in this game and everybody's watching me, and I

know they're all judging me. Home I got Phil's playing a hundred two hundred, and it was a real it was a real uh you know, kind of hurt my pride a lot. And I said, listen, you're doing this for your wife and your kids, and you're just being really smart. And you know, if people want to, you know, judge you, that's fine, be judged you know, um. And so you know, I was willing to do things like that rather than rather than risk too much money on any given day. So I think this is this is

really interesting. A few things here. One is maybe a lot of people don't realize this, but tell us a little bit more about how it works. The idea of being staked. So you're entering these six tournaments, people are of essentially in did in you there you're playing with their money. Explain how that how that works. Well, I've been lucky to have some really amazing friends who have,

you know, wanted to invest money in me. And I've been extraordinarily lucky in that over the years, I've probably had fifty people invest money, and there's one or two that are losing and maybe they've lost a combined total of seventy. On the other hand, I've made four or five million dollars for everybody else. So you know, I try to invite anybody who's lost into my next deal. So as time has passed. Last year, I put together my first fund, and I wasn't sure how it would go.

I'm like, oh my god, I need to raise five hundred and fifty thousand dollars. You know, can I do it? So I designed a fund where I would get a ten free roll and I'd put up the first ten percent myself, so I'd be playing. And you know, the nice thing about this versus traditional traditional deals are deals where you would have make up. In other words, I would have someone staking me, and if I lost a hundred and fifty thousand dollars straight, they would get their

hundred and fifty off the top. So theoretically I'm a great poker player, I'm eventually always going to end up making that person money, but they might have to carry a three hundred thousand dollar loss for a couple of years and so you know, but in this case, it's just much cleaner just just just have your friends put in a bunch of money. So last year was my first kind of fund. My friends put in five fifty

I hit for one point six million right away. And uh, and I was a little bit unlucky to not hit for more. Now for them, imagine this is beyond like the Kentucky Derby, the Kentucky every Last for two minutes. They were actually able to watch me live on television for three full days in a three hundred thousand dollar buying tournament. And if I would have gotten there in the other two events, I would have been on a

live stream where they could have watched me. So it's kind of fun when you have ten of somebody in your rooting for him to be able to watch for three straight days if you want to. And so it was pretty cool. And and this year, of course, last year, I was surprised my fund sold out in like twenty three hours, and of course this year four hours. And and I could have raised a million dollars and four hours if I wanted to. And of course that will

all go away if I'm not successful. So there's a lot of pressure on me because I took my friends money in for the latest fund. So and it's only six or seven events, I think, so Phil forgive me if this is a really simplistic question, but what happens if the worst occurs and you do lose all your money, and you do lose your bankroll, then what's like the

next step for you? If I lost the fund um and then several of my friends would lose sixty six thousand dollars or whatever, it's okay, they're all super wealthy, um, But it's not really okay because I really want to win. But I think next year, if I tried to raise six million dollars and four or five hours, I would

be able to do it again. So I think for them, it's just really fun and they want to support and they want to be involved, and they know how much money I've made my other friends, So it feels like, you know, it feels like I'm good for a while,

unless somehow I my poker skills suddenly mysteriously disappear. For me to lose all of my money is almost unimaginable, I'd have to you know, I'm just way too conservative to to put all of my money at play, or even you know, ten percent of it right off the bat. In our conversation, we talked about and I said, it was interesting how you have this reputation for these tirades at the table, but you don't go on tilt. You don't let those tirades turn into a string of bad decisions.

And you mentioned that when you played poker in your twenties, you used to go on tilt. Explain what happened. How did you plug that leak in your game, so to speak, How did you how did you turn it around and avoid this sort of mental mistakes? Really give us some of the details about how you work. Okay, I'm gonna

answer that. I'll also say that. I'll also say that, you know, with my autobiography, Poker Brat, I'm also launching my next book, So Poker Brack comes out August onet and I'm doing this book right after that's called Positivity and Positivity I'm really excited about. It's kind of like my how to Achieve Great Things in Life book. And so the number one principle as we're all in the right place at the right time, which I think is

really interesting. You know. The second principle is hate hurts you and I have some you know, five amazing principles. But let's go back to your question first. For you know, as far as as far as being able to control yourself at the table, I do think that getting rid of all that negativity in the moments, in other words, kind of going on a tire rde How could you

do that? What were you thinking? Blah blah blah blah blah. Um. It seems like that kind of got rid of it rather than I think some people keep all of those internalize all those bad beats, and then you have the new generation which plays literally two hundred hands per hour at sites and take bad beats all the time, and so they just think nothing of it. They think my behavior is absurd. How could it matter to you? Feel?

I played a thousand hands today in five hours, and I took four bad beats and I just didn't even blink. So um. But for me, what I try to do when I'm really emotional is I try to take stock of exactly where I am and exactly how many chips I have, what the blinds are. So after a really horrible beat, if I'm really on my game, I can count down my chips. Okay, I have ten thousand, four hundred left, Okay, what are the blinds? Two hundred four hundred? Okay,

how long till the break? And it's three or four questions like that that just kind of puts me back in and I realized, oh, you know what, you're still all right, you still have a chance to win this, and the three or four questions you know, post tirade that and then and then hopefully there are years where I don't have very many tirades for a couple of months, and you know, of course that's disappointing to the sands

and the players at the table. They all want to see that, and it's kind of like the John McEnroe show war. I just want to say, when when I was talking to Tracy earlier, I said, oh, he's kind of like the John McEnroe of poker. So I already got when we were having a conversation earlier, I got that in all right, we're going to take a short break for a message from our sponsor, but knowledge to work and grow your business with c I T. From

transportation to healthcare to manufacturing. C i T offers commercial lending, leasing, and treasury management services for small and middle market businesses. Learn more at c I T dot com. Put Knowledge to work and we are back phil. Before the break, you mentioned briefly the idea of some players nowadays playing

like multiple rapid fire hands on online poker sites. And I have to say, in my extensive research of poker before we started this podcast, I did come across some online players who seem to suggest that they don't really like you. They don't really like the way that you play poker. They think you make mathematically incorrect decisions. Um, what's your response to that? No, I really I do love that question, um, because it opens up a whole

kind of fun can of worms for me. So you have to understand that these guys are some really great UH players out there that are completely mathematically based, and they come up with amazing elegant theories, and it's it's kind of fun to watch and see. But I can read their elegant theories and about ten minutes, Oh, you're doing this for this reason, that for that reason, and you can dig in a little bit deeper. Maybe it takes a couple of hours to fully kind of grasp it.

But for a as a professionals studied his whole life poker, I see their theories in about ten minutes and then and then but what they can never have? What I have they can never have. You can't buy it, you can't you know, it's not for sale. And that's you know, great reading ability, which you know I sometimes term as white magic um only because the black magic just sounded like it was so negative. Um, I didn't want to be known as some wizard that you know doing black

magic um. And and it's like one of the one of the really great young players. I was trying to explain to him why folded a hand and I'm like, well, I thought he was really strong, and He's like, what what He couldn't even understand that I was using what it would call reads white magic, you know, understanding what

your opponents have understanding. You know, last night or a couple of nights ago, was playing poker and my my reads kind of kicked in and it was great because sometimes they're not there all the time, or I'd probably have, you know, twenty eight world championships. I mean, fourteen is great and and I've got you know, there's three people with ten that are chasing me for all time history. But I might have twenty eight if my reds were all there. So yeah, poker's a very um it's just

not encompassed entirely by mathematics. It's impossible, and so you can come along ways with just math and poker, but you still have to steer somebody down, you know, And when when when anybody's trying to bluff a million dollars, they're giving away signals that they're bluffing, And when I'm at my best, I read those signals better than anybody else. And so I think that's kind of the explanation. If you want to be great, great grade at hold them,

um and nolamit hold them. You have to be able to bet at all and not let them detect your bluffing. And you have to even more importantly, be able to determine when they're bluffing all of their chips and then make a great call. And sometimes that create creates crazy situations where you know, I'm calling like three million dollars with bottom pair, you know, because really really weak holding.

You know. Yeah, sure it's nice when you when you have you know, four of a kind and someone bluffs all in, but you know, oftentimes you're caught in these really weird spots. And so if you can make that amazing call, then you're going to win the tournament. And if you can't, you won't. So the World Series of Poker is coming up, you mentioned you're in the lead. You have fourteen bracelets, more than anyone else. People are trying to chase you. How do you prepare it for this?

And for people who don't know, the World Series of Poker is not just one tournament, but many, many tournaments, and you enter several how do you prepare for what's coming up? What are you doing right now? Well, I mean, you know, so I make a lot of appearances, um, and I do you know, I work for a lot of companies. Uh, you know, I have pieces of you know, Chemo, Sabbi, Me, Mescal. We were the you know, uh, we were official spirit of Self by Southwest. I'm involved with music Headphones. We

signed Michael Jordan and Drake and Kevin Hard. I'm on the advisory board of that. So I'm a little bit it feels like I'm a little bit busy. And then writing the book, for God's sakes, I was writing words a day for months. I mean it was just so grueling. You're just not sleeping, well, you're always thinking about the book. And so and then I made a bunch of appearances. I had to go to the East coast, Vegas, and so about five weeks ago, I said, that's it. I'm

shutting it down. And so basically I was trying. It might sound funny to you, I was trying to get myself into a state of boredom almost so the first two two and a half weeks, I just didn't do much, but I felt like I was sleeping eleven hours a day, you know, just kind of getting caught up from a lot of intensity. And then you know, three or four weeks in, I was a little bit bored, which I think was great. And um, and you're just resting because

I know that the World Series of Poker. For example, I go to Vegas Thursday, okay, and then I'm not leaving Vegas again until June twenty. I'm gonna do a bunch of live you know. Um, I think it was announced that ESPN is going to be doing the World Series of Poker today. It was announced, and so either I'm going to be playing twelve days straight at the World Series of Poker or I'll be doing the commentary.

So that's live on ESPN every day. It's a very intense, long stretch, and so I try to rest up as much as I can. It's really funny that it seems like working out has been backfiring. I worked out in thirteen and sixteen and then my worst series, So I'm trying to instead of exercise this year. You know, it's weird, doesn't make sense to me. I'm like, this can't And I was stupid because I just worked out for six weeks straight every day or whatever every other day, just

saying this couldn't possibly be hurting me. Well, you know, sometimes you know, there's mysterious reasons and I'm not fully you know, a tune as to why that could happen. But this year, you know, I'll be doing a lot of walking instead of working out. And then you know, for me, I also spent twelve fourteen days in February blank poker every day with kind of like maybe three or four of us talking about hands every day. I

put in a huge amount of effort. I improved several of my games just by studying and playing, and I won two tournaments just messing around, just trying to learn and get better. And uh, and so I put that working in February. I feel good about that and I'm well rested, So I think it's just going to be a lot of fun. But you know, when you're in Vegas May eighteenth through July third. That's a long time. It's pretty hot there too. It's a desert man, Phil.

I'm just curious, if so much of your skill set is about reading people, then when you prepare for upcoming tournaments, do you try to study the individual people that you think you'll be competing against, or does reading people like are there basic things that apply to everyone, or do you try to seek out specific weaknesses of your opponents. That's another great question for me in this case. What I was primarily trying to focus on two things. The reads.

The reading ability is it's a naturally there and it's a very strange thing. I think of it as like a baseball player. So sometimes you have to cover off the ball and then you go into a slump, and if you look at it, it's kind of like a sign wave right up down, up down, and and maybe that sign wave lasts over months. And it's great for me when the World Series of Poker happens to be at the top of one of the biggest sign waves where I'm really reading people. Well, beyond that, I spend

you know, we play say six different games. Okay, so we play hold them. We also play oh Maha and Seven Cards Stud and you know, Seven Cards Stud Low, and um, so I spent a lot of time playing the other games learning and that's that's basically, um just what hand should I play? When should I play? And so I learned a lot and so after you know,

kind of in Texas hold them. I have twelve world Championships. Well, the next closest guy has three, So I'm so far out in front it's kind of scary and hold them. And so I've kind of been you know, hold the Master for a long time. But all of a sudden, out of nowhere, I started playing Seven Card Low and I won two bracelets in a second in the last five years, which is the best record in history in that game. And so I'm like, you know what, why can't I have the best record in history in all

six games. I'll just have to work really hard and just keep learning and absorbing and getting better. And so now you know, I'm kind of hoping to win bracelets and other events and really do something special in the poker world. Do you avoid getting bored by mixing up your games and by setting new challenges and games where you haven't previously been as successful or played as much. Yes, yes, yes, I think, and you know, the last week has been really fun. I've gone to a bunch of Warriors games

and I sit with the owners on the lore. I haven't been bored the last few weeks as we've also been playing some high stakes poker games in my neighborhood. Um, so that's been fun. I call that the Masters of the Universe poker game. I talked about that in my book a lot, and I think last night I won seventy four thousand dollars, so it was a good So I mean it's not well, I guess I'm something too

much time bragging. Let me switch switch directions here and answer your question and say, in order to learn new things in this game, in order to hit the next level, it's not just about reading books, because you can do that and not learn enough. It's about talking to the best players in the world. So I think that, you know, I think that Mike the Mouth Mattaso is the best almost eight a better player in the world. And so I spent some time with him and another great player

kind of learning some new things. And so to me, I have access to the greatest poker players in the world, and they're all willing to give me information because I just want to ask me questions about hold them and and so there's a quid pro quo there and and so yeah to me. And then you also have to be in the heat of the moment, because if you're not,

it doesn't matter, right. So that's why playing tournaments every day for fourteen days in February and just studying with the best in the world at each specific game was extraordinarily helpful for me. When you look to the future of poker, do you think you know in person table games are here to stay or do you think increasingly it's going to be dominated by online players. Well, see, for me, very interesting. So when you when I, when I came up in poker, the best players in the

world were great at reading people. So the bunch of guys, I mean, I wouldn't use the word psychic, a bunch of guys that were just great at reading people. And they just kept making great moves and rising up and winning all the money in poker. And then all of a sudden, a blessing for me. Really in oh three, oh four, oh five, we had literally a hundred million

and people throughout the globe start to play poker. And it turns out that the guys that the group that rose to the top did not have great reading abilities and was not great at disguising themselves when they were betting. In other words, they were just sitting there playing two hundred three hundred hands an hour. I have great skill sets, they don't get tired easily, they don't go on tilt um, but they didn't have great reading abilities and they couldn't

disguise themselves. And so then all of a sudden, all these guys made you know, millions and tens of millions of dollars and flooded into the poker world. But to me, they were all super easy targets. Oh my god, here's a guy that can't read me, so I can just bluff him at will, and he's not even looking at me. And then here's a guy that here's a guy that every time he bluffs like his less finger shakes or whatever.

You know. So it went from a very kind of sophisticated reading game two more just jammed up with math, and so for me it was a bonanza. And so you know, I just made tons of final tables. I mean, we'd have, you know, one tournament I wanted players, another one at players, and it was just a matter of just beating the players at your table over four days and so you know, and I started, So it was

it was great for me. And now there's been just a little bit of a shake up because these you know, these kind of online phenomens and talents have gotten better at reading and but there's still a huge percentage that that's really not into basically what poker really is. And and so it's still good for me. But can you imagine then for some reason all of the people who were great at reading people, some of them switched to

online poker and they and they couldn't compete with those guys. Well, I just stayed in the real world for the most part. And so yeah, I like competing against uh that. Now, of course, there are a bunch of great young airs now that that have both rights, that that just know the math in and out and have great reads. So, Phil, I think you know, I'm gonna wrap up. I want to ask you one more question. I know you want to talk about positivity, and so let's wrap this up.

I mean, we all get into modes, whether we're at a poker table, whether we're trading, whether we're at work or something else. You get negative, You make bad decisions. They feed on each other. You dig in, you burn out. I do think it's very interesting that you know, your your focus on positivity does seem to contrast with your reputation. But real quickly, how do you snap into a positive mood? How do you maintain that? Because it's so easy to

lose it? It is, and and you know, I mean, of course I'm great at losing it too, you know, Um, obviously my nickname is the poker brat, right, Um, But I mean the positivity stuff for me, it's really important. You know. It's some little tricks like you know, writing down on your bathroom, your your blessings really important. And I can tell you if you think about it a lot, you'll always put at the top of your list your health. If you have great health, that's always the number one thing.

It goes above family, it goes above everything. Help. If you don't have health, you really don't have anything. So having a list, and and you know my list on my bathroom mere great health, you know, great wife and children and great health for them. And then fourteen World Championships and then the best selling New York Times bestsellers and all the other stuff. But you have to have that's a really great thing to have, you know, a list of blessings on your mirror. And next up, I

have a list of goals. And so you know, when I'm brushing my teeth, I can see my goal list. And that's for that year, two thousand seventeen. Goals, you know, when three World Series of poker bracelets, you know, make sure that Poker breats and New York Times bestseller, you know, make sure that I write positivity and get it out by the end of the year. You know, just some

of my goals. And so I think when I look at that bathroom mirror and whether I'm consciously or unconsciously seeing it, number one, it's shifting my mood towards Wow, there's a lot to be thankful for. And this is what I want to accomplish today. And you know, it's just some of the tricks that I use to kind of keep me, you know, positive, and um so yes,

staying positive, I think is huge. And of course you'll probably see me on television whining way too much, acting like a poker brat, but those that that's really about, you know, one percent two percent of my poker life is like that, maybe three and it's you know, one tenth of one percent of my regular life. But the poker brat has been very good to me, you know, being the bad boys a lot of perks. All right, Phil,

this is a great conversation. I think people listening to it will come away not thinking you're a brad at all. Really appreciate you coming on, and of course you wish you good luck in the upcoming world series. Thanks guys, all the traders out there risk class of money. I love that perfect ending. So, Tracy, I know you went into that conversation feeling nervous, but how do you feel now? I have so many questions, Joe? What is no limit? Hold him? Oh no, I'm chuffy now. Um. I thought

it was fascinating. He wasn't nearly as bradish as I thought he might be. And I think some of the things he was talking about, you know, when it comes to playing humans versus playing mathematically oriented competitors online definitely

applies to modern markets. Right, Oh yeah, absolutely, Because I mean, obviously people could take a quantitative approach and on a day to day basis um that quantitative approach might work fine, but eventually you get into a position where there's some extreme maybe you're looking at a potentially huge lass, or there's a huge run up in market, and it just seems unavoidable that emotions are bound to take over the markets, and so the ability to sort of read where we're at,

to sense the emotions that are coursing through the markets out there is it's hard to imagine that I'll ever really go away. Yeah, And I thought it was interesting what he was saying about the influx of people who started playing poker online and then the idea that they all tried to move into the real world and he

was able to take advantage of them. And I think there are some people out there now who would look at markets and say, so much of it is quantitatively driven right now, and valuations have gotten so far out of whack with some fundamentals that maybe we are nearing the point where human beings that are taking a sort of fundamental analysis could come in and perhaps make some money. It is encouraging that there's still a role for humans and just in generate for humans, for us, for us

mirror humans. I loved what he said to about, um, how to avoid going on tilt. So the idea of asking yourself a few questions, because I mean I've played poker at low stakes with friends and even losing very tiny amounts of money had the ability to really mess you up mentally and cause bad decisions. So the idea of having a routine getting back into the sort of analytical framework by asking yourself a few questions. Um, I

don't know. The whole thing I thought was very interesting and definitely I think there's more to fill than just this sort of poker bread image that you see on YouTube. Yeah, and now we also have a good excuse to go to Vegas. Right, We're going to do add thoughts poker episode from Vegas. Yes, that's the plan. Oh, we should do like all the different games. Maybe that would be a fun one. And I love that thing at the end,

risk less money. That's like a great it's a great motto. Yeah, And I mean it goes back to exactly what Peter Borish was saying about the fact that the people who stay in the market are actually relatively conservative, even though you think about them as these massive risk takers, Right, their survivors. Alright, Tracy, at some point we do need to play poker, though. I will see you in Vegas. This has been another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. I'm Joe Wisenthal. You can follow me on Twitter at

the Stalwart and I'm Tracy Alloway. I'm on Twitter at Tracy Alloway and Fills on Twitter at Phil Underscore Helmet. Thanks for listening. Put knowledge to work and grow your business with c i T. From transportation to healthcare to manufacturing. C i T offers commercial lending, leasing, and treasury management services for small and middle market businesses. Learn more at c i T dot com. Put Knowledge to Work