29: How an Old-School Chess Shop Survives in Modern New York

I probably always say that that I'm excited, but this episode is kind of on a slightly more offbeach subject, not really anything specifically to do with economics or markets, but about something about which something I'm very passionate about. And there is a business angle. And do you know what it's about. Uh, it's chess, right, that's right. Finally, we were doing an episode of Odd Lots about chess,

and of course chess in the game. I mean, average chess player, you wouldn't necessarily think there is a financier markets angle, but there is in New York City a chess business. There's a place that I love. It's in the village. It's called the Chess Forum, and they sell chess books and chess boards, and you can go there and for a few dollars an hour play chess on They have all these boards set up, and so you could just go there and find a game and just

play chess all night. And it's this magical place in New York City. So I remember this place. It was actually really close to my old apartment in New York and I remember walking past it and uh, I must confess I never went there because I'm not a big chess player, but it looked really, really interesting. It's one of these things that seems like kind of old New

York and it's cool that it still exists. It's just like it's always two cool to exist because at a time when more and more things are like high end restaurants or banks or other stuff, it's cool that there is this piece of real estate devoted to playing chess. And today I'm really excited we have the founder of

the Chess Forum and the owner, Iman hash On. He founded it in the mid nineties and he is going to be our guest today and we're going to be talking about the business of running a chess store in New York City. Fantastic. I'm really curious to see how an old school place like that manages to survive. Me too, So let's get started. Iman, thank you very much for joining us here in the studio. Thank you so uh Iman, tell us how did you tell us? How did the

Chess Forum begin? How did you found this chess shop? And what is it? Many things? Whatever you want to make of it as a business, as a chess store that relies on setting chess a cool meant and other classic games bat gammon, the Japanese game of goal checkers, domino,

scribble cribbic, even measuring. At the same time, I see it as partially a community service place where I believe in that kind of thing where you have to give, if not as much as you can back to the community that you live or exist in, where the local neighborhood or the bigger city itself. And you founded it? What year was it nine? Actually? And so you found were you doing before that? Before that? I was a student in a tunnel. You was doing a pH d

in comparative religion. And how did you have the idea to why did you how did you come up with the idea of launching a chester it's uh, his own story actually, and if you remember, maybe you're too young for that time. There was another store on the same block and I worked there part time and developed into a manager and the partner. And as you want to mention, in the world of business, not a lot of partnerships and the happy ending is I think the only ship

that doesn't float the partnership, right, believe that. So you had a split with the owner of that other chess shop just one day. It was one of those deals I was at the time when I entered the partnership in my little wenties and one on trust. Wait wait, wait, I remember reading a little bit about this at the time. There were news articles saying that there was this massive

chess feud basically in the village between the two chess shops. Right, that's that's civil war that split Thompson Street, Right, And does the other one still exist? It doesn't exist, if it's so when I'm not sure? So talk to us about running the business. Um, you sell books, you sell boards of different games, as you said, and you also rent out tables essentially for people to come and play chess.

So how does the business work. It's the same old model of a store that one side of it is a business relies on selling equipment, and the other side is sort of a cafe if you want, or we offer soft drinks and tables for people to play chess or any other game, the old classic games that they might like, especially back come on. And so you've been doing it for over You've been doing it, I guess over twenty years now, Um, what trends have you seen? Is chess remain popular? Was there a time when it

was more popular than now? Do people come in at the same levels? That part this game has two aspects to it. There's a functional practical aspect, and there is a esthetic aspect. The functional aspect is practically wiped out by the Internet. Almost everybody plays online or in the beginning to a software. Right now it's just directly playing. The engines are directly online or they come with your own phone or on computer, so that part has weakened drastically.

That trend is that mostly we see senior citizens two groups that are too late or too early for technology, either senior citizens in their nineties or children four or five years old. These are sort of the loyal clientele. Anywhere in between is practically going to one. You see it online and you see the industries staring at their phones or tableits at night. It's more popular with couples, So now we have not like sort of dating scene. People go on dating. It sounds like a nice data

that's nice. I like that. That's a good data idea. So what's the split in revenue like between sales of actual chest related items and the payments you receive for letting people play chess in the store and for selling drinks and that sort of thing. It's really I don't know if there will be a split. As I said that playing part is more of a service than it's a business. So the business is really all the selling stuff. Yeah, I mean, which are senior citizens one hour? Children play

free all the time. They whoever plays with them, their family. They don't pay if there's a child playing. That area of Manhattan is really sort of mecca for chess because in addition to the old chess shop that you put out of business, it's right near Washington Square Park, which has a pretty thriving chess community there right. Yes, it's most real taste around the park and Dinion Square as a four our scene who are have you what kind of a big name chess players have you had come

in and played chess on the forum. We had that I forget his name, but less name Leco Hungarian Grandmaster Peter Luck the Teleco. Yeah, at the moment, I don't know it counts, but oh, Carowana, he's like the hottest thing right now. He's he's American, right, he's Italian born in America, Italian born in America. And he's even playing

better than Magnus Carlson. I think he's a future of chess. Yeah, and he started that chess for him, He started a chess for Has he come back since he's become famous? Who haven't seen him since? I think he just moved back to the US, like a few almost a few months ago. He started at four. I remember his father came and asked for a chess teacher. So it's like a classic Bobby Fisher style story of us some young some young prodigy looking at parents looking for a teacher

at that time. You don't know that's what any parent would think. What you offer your kids? So opportunities offer? Do you see that? A lot of parents imagining their children shows an interested chess and these parents sort of fantasized that their kids are going to be the next Bobby Sure, and they're convinced that their child is a prodigy. That's a constant thing, not always happy thing, right, I

imagine that. Wait, so the reason that children get to play for free at the Chess Forum is because you're trying, presumably to nurture a whole another generation of chess fans and future customers. Right Exactly when I started, I realized as a business, even in say they it's a very small business. It's really negregible. If you want to talk about economy and numbers, there's nothing there. There is no product. At the same time, there's no clientele. So you had

to work on both. I had to widen my selection just to widen that peel. At the same time, I had to find to create the customer. Thinking that almost I would I would say, like an agricultural way of thinking that that commercial way of thinking, like you plant a tree and you eat the fruit maybe two years later. I like. I like that. That's was my reason. Thing is that we need, almost like they used to do in Russia, to spread the game amongst the population, hoping

for two things. Expand the market, and second, maybe out of that population, the issue becomes higher of creating a world champion or if not a larger number of grand masters. Before you got into the chess business, what did you think you were going to do? What did you study for? What did you do? All? Right? It was may becoming a professor, university teacher of some sort. That was the plan that took my family a lot of time to accept the idea of becoming what this was a shopkeeper?

And do you get to play much? But that often? I would love to play more, but I've noticed, first of I have, like maybe myself, addictive personality. So I try to meet and just as you know as a player, you know yourself that if you sit to play, you don't want to do anything else. And I have a room full of people like that, very smart, very intelligent, very funny, well educated, but they don't want to do

anything else. Practically, the game takes over your life. Is really the closest thing to being about who drinks his own alcohol? Right? Have you seen people's lives get ruined by chess? I've seen quite a few, sadly, in a very unfortunate, very sad way, marriages destroyed, feminis broken up, drops and careers lost just by the magic or the cares or the power of the chessboard. It has its

own drop. Incredible and that Now let's take a very quick break for a word from our sponsor, but knowledge to work and grow your business with c I T. From transportation to healthcare to manufacturing. C i T offers commercial lending, leasing, and treasury management services for small and middle market businesses. Learn more at c I T dot com. Put Knowledge to Work. And we're back with Iman Kashan, the founder and owner of the Chess Forum, this wonderful

chess shop in the village in Manhattan. And right before the break, you were talking about how you've seen chess and the magic and the power of the chessboard. People get so engrossed in it that it ruins their lives, that ruins their families. What is it about chess? After all these years, computers have long surpassed human ability in terms of ability to um you know, or computers are clearly better than us. Now that's still gravitate. People are

still gravitated to it. Why do you think this game in particular just draws people in. I think the best way to express it is that story of the man or the farmer who did the kana service and the king for them any price that he wants. So we humbly said, I'll just take a coin, or some people say one piece of wheat and put it on the square of a chessboard, and as we move square to square, just double that number. So it goes to say, by

the end the on practically half the kingdom. So this just the idea is that the possibilities no two games are the same. That's why it's difficult to memorize games, right because even grand master play, like even with these openings that have been studied to death, often by say move twelve or thirteen, they're in completely uncharted territory that

I've never been seen before. Right, yes, so again, like you start and you don't know where I like in it similarity to life, there is no guessing where your day will take you, no guessing where your move will lead. That's I think sometimes why they like heavy pieces just to give a weight. What I like to teach the younger players or the kids, is that this game is

a game of life, and that's sense of consequences. Don't make a move lightly when it depends the course of a game, a difference between a win, a lose, or a draw. So you both are waxing lyrical about the the allure of chess, especially played against a physical opponent who's actually there in the room with you. Why are people um playing so much chess online? It seems like it would lose a little bit of the romance and

the fun of actually playing in real life. I mean, maybe it's an understatement to say a little bit lose the romance, toy gun. It's as much as over romance as maybe dating a computer screen. I noticed when people come to us first of all, why it's because it's convenient. There is no more like anything ordering food or going to the restaurant to shop or to the supermarket, and it's coming to your house. You gain time, you save money, and you have whole world. Now, I mean, that's what

technology did. What used to involve you a trip all the way from Jersey or Queen's to chess for him. Now it's just in the palm of your hand. You have the player, you have the pieces, the board and the clock and you can't even trash talk now. Uh so let's talk go back you know, I like playing at the chess for him. I also like playing at Washington Square Park, and people play for money often. Um, I don't want you to have to admit if there's

gambling ever going on in your establishment. But do you think that you know that adds to the thrill of it, the idea that there might be five or ten dollars on the line in a game, or do you think that takes away from the game. It depends how you look at it. If some people are playing the five for the thrill, I think it would be fun. But the unfun part that sometimes you have to come across

is those who do that to make a living. Yeah, so it's a much more desperate game, right, difference between as somebody in the park, A player Rocky One from in thirty Dollars he said this, this is really my food money. Yeah, so it's a big So that's when there's a chance of a clash, even physical, because you're fighting for your lifelihood. Do you prohibit people playing for money in the chess forum? Yeah, this is I mean, it's really I have to say it's it's been like

everything is good and best size. It's very quiet and calm and peaceful, but it's much less of a crowd. If you want, you could fill a whole auditorium with gamblers, but then basically have to have nine on one on speed dial. So on the business side, I imagine you've seen the rent go up quite a bit. I mean you're in a very trendy part of Manhattan. Has that been difficult? It's been, Like I think what's been a little bit more difficult than rent is a new thing

that's been introduced a few years ago. Real estate tax. That's something that's it's almost practically like another rent. Huh that when I first took the place, there was no such thing, something very minimal. Now you practically pay a large chunk of the real estate text and that's really a big burden. That makes life for making in Smith a little bit or not a little bit, much more difficult. Have you been able to increase prices on boards and

books to match increasing costs to begin? I really like almost a lot of things are the same price like.

So you're really under pressure on two fronts, right, because not only are you getting digital pressure from the internet from people playing chess online, but you must also be under pressure from sites like Amazon in terms of selling chess books and equipment, and that definitely that's in terms of play and now I think there are hundreds of thousands of sites who sell that particular and maybe everything else.

I've seen even a site where the man sells just boards and the wife sells underwear for women that I saw. That What a world. It's a natural pairing, obviously exactly one after their interest. But yeah, I know it's everyone in this. In a way, there's an element of democraticization or equalization that everybody has a chance to do anything they want. But I find it too clearly the romans of life in general. Will the Will the Chess Forum

be here in ten years? That's the hope. Really, Like I mean, this is would be an amazing achievement if we're able to do it, just I did. I would I say, like I like, if we ever have to leave, I would like to say for another hundred years, I cannot see a city like New York with at a place like this. I agree to me. It's one of the quintessential New York establishment. And as I was saying in the in the beginning, it's almost too good to exist because it's so cool, and I think New York

would be worse without it. Before we wrap up, do you have any sort of highlight of your time running the Chess Forum that was sort of to you one of the You know, it doesn't sound like it's been extraordinarily financially rewarding, but was there a great story that you tells you like why it's been so worth it to keep it going? I mean besides uh Fabiano story, but every every day by itself for me that as I said, like, my example of business isn't something you

teach in business school. What I do isn't the fact that I tried to run a business on goodwill that if you give, don't be afraid it will come back somehow. The fact that we are open to me is American and has it come back. It's the fact that we're open is the proof that it comes back. I mean, you look at numbers, they don't make sense, but how is it open if anybody believes that? That's why I say, you kind of teach it in business school, but faith or hope that do that. I think look out for

people and people will look out for you somehow. I mean, it would be nice if there's a system that this is more of a cultural institution at the stage, not a business. Well, and that's such a refreshing thing to hear because obviously we talked about finance all day and nobody says anything like that. So it was an absolute

pleasure talking to you and learning about your business. I mean, that's the final thing we're seeing sitting behind in the store and seeing people, business people, children, all kinds of tourists who are amazed that from Europe, who play mayor chess, but are amazed that exists in New York. I feel that New York has the hype and delivers. Yeah, that's one thing special by the people looking slowly through the

windows at the sets with that innocent, pure smile. There's no money in it, there's no interest, there's no anything gained. Back and forth, just for a second or two, you put a smile on somebody's face before they go back to their real life. At think this is my best word every day. Well, thank you very much for joining us, and obviously to anyone who's listening to the Odd podcast, if you're in New York or visiting New York, I highly endorsed checking out the Chess Forum it's on Thompson Street.

Thank you so much. Well, Tracy, I love chess obviously, but what did you think about it? Because I thought that was great, But I'm curious to get your perspective. So all right, I admit I'm frustrated with chess, mostly because whenever I try to play it with my husband, he tries fools mate on me, and like I fall for I'm a terrible, terrible chess player. But after listening

to that, I feel kind of bad. I feel like when I was in New York, I probably should have gone to the Chess Forum at least a couple of times and tried to hone my game a little bit more. You really have no excuse for getting by fools made now. I hate to say that. Well. I was going to say we should play online sometime, but after that discussion,

I don't think we should. I love that discussion. I thought that he captured the appeal of chess and the appeal of running a place like the Chess Forum perfectly. And while I still live in New York and I'm not planning on moving anytime soon, I'm now going to make it a commitment to go there more often. You know, what I found really interesting was just the discussion about all the pressures brought to bear by the Internet and

everything kind of moving online. Because obviously in business and markets we talk a lot about big companies like Amazon, new up starts like Airbnb, and all the pressures they brought to bear on traditional players, and I think sometimes we forget that traditional brick and mortar stores like the Chess Forum are providing a service for these big guys, right, that's talking about nurturing a new generation of chess players.

Like what he said, Like the ability, to say, for a tourist or a family to be able to walk down the street and have their children look into a shop window and see a chess set is a legit

positive public good. I mean, even if you don't buy anything, it's cool to like window shop, and so to think about all the places that offer that, to think about them all potentially going away strikes me as a genuine loss of a good good, even if from a strictly commercial stance you can get a better or more efficient deal online. Yeah, I think that's right, all right, Tracy, Well, it was great chatting with you, and thank you to everyone for listening to Odd lots. I'm Joe Wisn't All.

You can follow me on Twitter at the Stalwarts, and I'm Tracy Halloway. I'm on Twitter at Tracy Halloway. Thanks for listening. Put knowledge to work and grow your business with c i T. From transportation to healthcare to manufacturing. C i T offers commercial lending, leasing, and treasury management services for small and middle market businesses. Learn more at c i T dot com. Put Knowledge to Work