Juice: Power, Politics, and the Grid ft. Tyson Culver

Uh, the whole time because every time I see myself on camera or listen to myself on a podcast. It's a weird feeling, but there's a lot else to talk about, thank God,'cause it's a great documentary, and we're gonna get into it. How's it going, Tyson? It's going really well. Thanks, uh, thanks so much for having me on the show today. I appreciate it. I was looking forward to talking about what we produced and uh how we how we got to where we got and you know, all things up to the release.

Yeah, I mean so I watched the whole thing last week as soon as you guys sent it out and I mean, there are several stories in there that could be their own documentary. I mean, you and I were talking about that before. we even started recording. Um, so it's very rich. It's amazing how much you guys get to so clearly. I think it'll really give people who've never really thought about the grid a good handle on what's going on with it. But before we get into

Juice two, grid time boogaloo. Um, let's talk about you. So I know you through Robert. Everybody who listens to this probably knows who Robert is, Robert Bryce. Um, how did you guys link up? How did you start working together? Just tell me a little about you, your background, and how you got here. Sure. Um, so Robert and I have known each other I guess for going on fifteen years now. Um

Um my background. My wife and I own a video production company in Austin, Texas. Um, we have three buckets of work that we do. Um, uh one bucket is branded content, which is, you know, the stuff you typically see on the internet, right? You know, so it's ads for companies like uh sign and uh um Whole Foods and Home Bebo and all kinds of stuff like that. So that's a third

our business. Um we also do progressive um uh political work. So um lots of work for Democrats, lots of work for uh nonprofits.

Um, and then uh the last bucket are documentary films. And so that was Juice, how electricity explains the world. Now this one we've also done some independent film work. So Um the way I came to know Robert was I was working at a crisis communications firm for I don't know why I was there for like a year and I knew that I was leaving um because it was originally uh more of a bipartisan outfit.

And it was shi uh shifting a little more conservative and my views shift a little more left. And so um I I wanted to leave. Robert was like one of the last people that I I met before I did so, and I was just Rebuilding his website. He needed to get a new web presence and he was kind of like starting to take off, you know, and he'd done he'd he'd been doing the thinking tour for a while, but He was he was the one client I took with me.

Um, and we you know, we became friends and you know, I helped them rebuild a site. I provided some, you know, digital strategy stuff on it. And it's interesting, for the longest time, yeah, and you can go back and you can look at a couple of his uh past books, you'll you'll see him reference me as like his one guy.

And I am not a web guy. Like I am at all. You know, I went to film school. It was like the web part was like, Hey, I was starting a new company and that was this when you start a new company, you do everything. So that was one of the things I was doing.

And so so we have this relationship, you know, I helped him kind of build up his site. Speaking business starts doing really, really well. We went to went to I think it was lunch at uh Maria Sacco Express. He told me he wanted to do he had an idea for a book.

It's like, Yeah, you know what I'm gonna you know, I'm gonna do a book. I'm gonna do I wanna do a book called Juice out electricity, explained the world. Tyson did you know and he just, you know, went into his prices, you know, the You know the power elevator for the power distance for uh data center is comparable to that of a legal weed dispensary in Colorado.

Why? You know, do you know what happens to women and girls when they have electricity versus when they don't? You know there are a billion people in the world without access to electricity and two billion more who use less electricity uh a year than a typical American refrigerator. And so he's going through this thing and I'm like, Oh, this sounds really frickin' cool.

Um, but he wasn't talking to me about doing the film. He was talking to me about he hey, I'm gonna do this book. I think it would make a really good doc. And he Robert knows other documentary maker uh filmmakers here at Austin. I was like, well, if if you're going to do this, make let me let me tease a concept for you. And so I put together a sizzle grill for him on what I thought his movie could look like. And I just did like a three minute thing. And it clicked.

And we just went and um started working on it. And it was funny too. I just wrapped up a a lone survivor thing that I did for Spike and Comedy Central. So I was doing like promos for that. And like he's like, I didn't know you did this kind of work because that wasn't the nature of our relationship. Our relationship was how can I help Robert Speaking business, not you know, can't make a commercial form or anything. Right. And then it went from there in our first

You know, we went to South by Southwest and did like a couple little things. And then our first major trip was we went to India and then all bets were off. We figured out that we worked really well together. And we don't agree on everything and I think that's really, really valuable in a work relationship because I respect him and he respects me and our opinions seem, you know. We find our common ground and and then we put that out there and hopefully other folks

can can can, you know, be somewhat enlightened by what we have to share. Yeah. I mean, I think a little bit of friction goes a long way to having a clearer project that more people can consume. Right. For sure. That's that's really, really important. So People haven't seen it by the way, go out I would actually recommend doing like a double feature.

of Juice How Electricity Explains the World and then Juice Grid Power Power or Power Politics in the Grid, because I think that the first one does a really great job of just getting people energy literate. Yeah. Right. Like you understand what the stakes are. for not having access to sheep energy. I think the scenes from India in that really help communicate that. Um there are some very so I would describe them as sober.

Right. Um where Robert's talking to that woman and he was like, Do you think if you had had electricity in your house, you would have been able to go to college? And she said, Yep. Just unequivocally. Yeah. I mean I I get this one thinking about what that was. I remember I remember shooting it in like both like we kind of shared a mook while the zone's like, oh my gosh, this is this is happening, you know. We don't know what the film is yet.

But this is in it. Yeah. Yeah. It's it and people are gonna feel it. Yeah. I mean it's you know, uh as you said, a little bit of friction goes a long way. And I also think um I I like the idea of double featuring it. It's interesting. I was at COP um a few months ago and we played a couple episodes um from from the series. You get episodes three and four, I believe. And one of the um one of the people in the audience said and Jen, you know, I'd I'd really like to kind of like

You know, if you could, it would it would have been cool to uh to understand why electricity is so important. And I was like, Well, have I got a recommendation for you because because that's what the movie was and it was in part that because I was learning throughout that time. You know, I went into our last film very much. I mean

I I'm a Democrat. I lean left. I don't lean the hard left, you know. I I I'm probably hard left now comparable to where some of the politics are going. But it's all moving targets anyway. It's five years you'll be a centrist and you know what I mean? Like I have voted Democrat, I have voted Republican is uh the easiest way to put it, but I was adamantly pro renewable. And, you know, I I didn't

I didn't become a fan of nuclear until we're a couple of months before the edit was done because I all these amazing lines from Michael Schellenberger and Ben Heard and other folks. I'm like

shoot, this is how the film has to end, you know, I gotta put something about it. So didn't mean to spoil it for anyone that's not yet seen that, but yeah, that was that was it was a learning experience for me. That was my own kind of like growth of why is electricity so important. Well, we went around and we found out why. Yeah. I mean it does a great job of that. So let's talk about the transition from that to this one, right? So by

You finish up that one. Why is electricity so important? I had been talking with Robert obviously for a while. He and I became friends really after um Yuri and the blackouts in Texas. And that's where our relationship really Grew, but I knew he was like spoiling to do something about it. Cause like every other time I talked to him, I said, I don't have another book in me, but.

There's like another thing I want to do. How did you guys come to the decision like, okay, we're gonna do the second one? And then what types of questions did you want to ask that were different from the first one?

Well, common question in the first one was um, what does electricity mean to you? You know, electricity is is very um very much a big part of it and so many other things. Um With with the second one, I remember where the genesis for the idea came.

from because we were driving to Lubbock to do a screening in Lubbock and Robert and I are just riding on up there and I'm I'm zones in to figure out, okay, what's next? What are what's what's what's the next thing that's gonna happen. And so originally it was slated to be probably more episode three heavy. Like that was more of a steam for for Libby. Um and it was gonna be a feature. And then it it's just kind of

uh spool out what episode three is'cause I know not everybody's gonna have seen it yet. So uh yeah, so epi episode three is greedy dreams and um it it it it really harkens back to uh Robert's um um Power Hungry book, you know, The Mess of Green Energy and the Real Fuels of the Future. That that's that's part of what it uh stem from. And so

I wanted to do that in part because I I kind of went through this process where I was adamantly that maybe not so much, and maybe like, man, what was I thinking? And I was kind of pissed. I mean I was I was pissing myself. for, you know, just kind of lapping up all the stuff that was being thrown my way by you know, by whomever.

Um and and I I was upset that I I didn't do my own digging. You know what I mean? I didn't do my own reporting or my own research on anything. And so just kind of like opened my eyes to that. And so I was like, you know what? I really think I really think we need to do a story that kind of kind of like pulls back the curtains and shows what the industry is all about and and what that means for the grid. You know, I think that would be but

But the grid part wasn't as heavy. More of it was just like, I think there's some bad stuff happening. I think we need to like shine a big ass light on. Um, but that changed because Winterstorm Here came and and I I still remember seeing Robert. I was I was with my wife and we were we had just bought a house and we're we went on like a six mile walk on our anniversary and I walked by Robert on the bridge uh and he was like, Hey

I think it's gonna be this. I think this is how we're gonna do it. I'm like That sounds really, really cool. And so it it it kind of lit a fire with both of us. He's like man you came over When we lost um for those that don't know, so Winter Wear, you know, I mean everyone kinda knows about it, but we lost power for several days. We didn't have water for over a week. I went to Robert's house to get water. Um

Robert actually now has my old generator because we moved to w and and just says, Hey, if this ever happens again, you could have this. And so the state of Texas and the city I live in listed, we were hit pretty hard. And it was When we did the film uh handle line, I I would always say, you know, um, whenever I did podcasts or interviewing Zem, I was like, I think I think Americans geographic blinders.

I think we don't realize well the rest of the world lives because we just don't have to. It just doesn't matter. And so you hear of these big numbers and they're daunting numbers, a billion people without electricity, two billion less than a refrigerator, that's three billion. That's ten times the size of the population of the United States of folks walking around in clothes washed by hands. Those numbers just kind of fly by you. So I thought that what Winterstorm Yuri did, I mean

Okay, this is what we were talking about. When people don't have their own grid, they will make their own. That's what folks are doing. That's what I did. That's what Robert did, and that's what a ton of Texas. um we got a little glimpse of what that inconvenience looks like for for much of the rest of the world. Yeah. I mean, you know, my dad was living in Alpine um when Yuri happened

And that was the thing that woke me up to the reason because I only knew about nuclear. Right. And I was hard at the pain for nuclear for all sorts of reasons. Right. And You know, after Yuri is how I met Robert and then Meredith.

And it's a good one, two punch right there. Yeah, it's a good one, two punch. Right. And that now it's basically my whole career. So let's talk a little bit more about all the different people that you got to talk to, right? Because we already named at least one of them, Meredith. Um

What type of story did you want to tell through your selection of people? Is a question that I always ask myself when I'm watching a document. Right. It's like, why aren't these the people? that got picked because you can always get it's not that everybody's interchangeable but everybody brings their own color and brings their own version of the story to it. So what were you guys looking for and what did you learn through talking to these people?

Warren, I'm a fan of talking to a lot. I'm I'm a huge fan of talking to a lot of people, period. Like, you know, when we did our last one, I think we interviewed over fifty people. In this one, we actually interviewed um just over sixty people. And I think thirty-eight made it into the final cut.

Um, and they come from all walks alike. You know, I we You know, they're they're gonna be the ones that are gonna be you know, the folks on on uh on your show are gonna be familiar with, you know, Michael Schulenberger is there.

And hers uh was there and hers is like kind of like prophetic as it related to just like Meredith he had also kind of anticipated uh certain things happening with the grid and sure enough, you know, he wrote about it I can't remember how many years ago and then sure enough it happened. And so what

We wanted to talk to people that one wanted to talk, two um were just as curious as we were in some ways, or or three had their own unique perspective on what was going on. You know, one of one of I'm sure we'll get to the part about what didn't get make it in, but you know

a part of the industry. Robert wrote an article um uh I think last year, you know, what's good for Jet Iraq is bad for Americans. It's something to that extent. We interviewed a gentleman that owns a generator business. Uh you know out out near the Bay Area and business is booming and it was a really compelling story and and that part didn't make its way into it, but it was still it was a critical part of the puzzle for us to, you know

determine where is this whole thing going to go. And then from there it was just a matter of how do we make the stories compelling? How do we ensure that people are curious at the end and they want to see what's next? Um and how do we demystify some of the numbers that are in there because I want my 17-year-old son to watch this and understand it. I want my 73-year-old mother to watch this and understand it. I don't want it to just be for what energy wonks. I want all the wonks to

And if they see problems, I wanna tell us about it. Well, sure, great. Let's have a conversation. Let's argue. Let's get red in the face. All that good stuff. But really I want I want kids and young adults and adults And anyone that bitched about the power being out, you know, during a winter storm Uri or any other blackout they've experienced to kind of a get a better appreciation of why the grid is the way it is and what happened.

Well, then that brings me to sort of the question of questions, which was tell me about one or two of your favorite stories you got to touch on. Um so a few favorite stories. Um the hands down I say my favorite's probably the one about the Ocean. I mean it's just for a number of reasons. One, I mean

For anyone that knows Robert, you know he's from Oklahoma. And so Robert is big on Pin's Oklahoma roots. And he was pushing the story for a while. And I and and I and I I love it. You know, it it's it's it's a unique look.

at the longest running uh longest running uh um um legal battle in America over over wind energy that most people don't know about. It's it's just not been written about. Um I wasn't sure how we were gonna make it work because originally this is gonna be an eighty minute feature. And then when it felt like m it it might kind of do a little we we did a little we did some follow-up interviews. So we did two um sets of interviews around Oklahoma. And that second set

was my favorite set because it it was just me and Robert. I had a DP fall out at the last minute. Robert and I traveled to India. We've traveled the world together, but this was like, oh, old town is man, being you. Let's go up to Oklahoma. And it's just such a unique story because It's hard to get your head around how brazen Annell was. in, you know, disregarding the Bureau of Indian Affairs, disregarding the tribe, disregarding the mineral rights, you know.

just regarding the cease and I mean everything was theirs like they just really don't care and they're just gonna bully their way through. um, this entire process and put up this giant wind farm that that the tribe doesn't want. And that's what happened. And to know that, you know, there's been a little bit of, you know, come up and say, you know, that's that's kind of amazing.

So yeah, for for for those that don't know, this is not a spoiler alert because reality already happened already. Um OSH win, uh N L has to go through and rip uh eighty four turbines out on eighty four hundred uh acres of land, I believe. And we haven't even gotten to the damages yet. That's a whole other trial. That's a whole that's a whole other feeling. I have a feeling Jose just like get ready. Yeah. It's it no well, it's it's not gonna it's not gonna be pleasant. I mean because

You know, I think 84 turbines and their estimated costs will be around$300 million. So that in itself, that's a huge story right there. Um and then you get a damages, typically damages are like three times, you know, the the cost of. So I'm like, you're talking over a billion dollars now. You know, in total. Um, I don't know what'll come out of all that, but I think it's a great um What's a good way of it it's a great great way to encourage folks not to

do the same thing to other folks. I I guess the easiest way is deterrence. Yeah. Deterrence is the word as a word is like it what is the word. Yeah. It's a yes. It is absolutely um I'm great for deterring folks from making poor choices. And And yeah. So so Osage, easily one of my um favorite stories. But some of the others, I mean, the Enron story, which you're well acquainted with, I knew very little about.

And so that I really enjoyed kind of getting into the meat of that and learning more about how both Texas and California embrace this flaw flawed policy. And, you know, I live in Texas. Um there's very much a, you know, you're kind of like, you know, bootstraps, for uh personality, it's, you know, individual worth, all that kind of good stuff, you know, pick yourself up and you can you can do whatever you want.

I was a little surprised that California and Texas, which couldn't be more different politically and and socially and geographically, had this one thing in common, and it just all goes back to the money in my opinion. Yeah, I mean that's the the Enron story is

You know, I think what people forget because so much of the fraud that happened, uh I mean, it was mostly thought of as like a financial crime, I think, by a lot of people. Yep. You know. Um, because there's I mean So if you read like Enron's and some of their internal documents towards the end, which I have at this point, they don't even know how to talk about themselves as a company.

They're like, Oh yeah, what are we exactly? What are we doing? Because they're so big and do so many different things and some of them are unclear. They're far from their pipeline days. Um so I think it was hard for the public to even understand what was going on and remember that this was in energy. Company, first and foremost, regardless of everything else. And I thought that the doc did a great job of sort of bringing people back to that. Um, because

The way you tell the Enron story, where it's just, first of all, they're not Wall Street guys. You know, like to tell the story of them just being greedy Wall Street guys is to completely miss. what was actually going on there. And so I thought you guys did a really great job. And I know for Robert, that's sort of like a return to his roots. That's the first book he ever wrote. That's his first book. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean the

The the the thing that stuck out to me in i in the story, I was trying to think of uh words earlier, was you know, the the words trust the market. I understand trust the market. I am a capitalist through and through. Um, but The the funky thing with Enron is when you say trust the market, you're saying trust the very people that built the market. You know and and that's just Ripe for like how can I how can I best take advantage of this to make a peakbox.

And so when you talk when when I hear trust the market, I'm like, Yeah, but that's not it's not really a market the way I think of things. I think of a market as like a you know a free market. You kind of built it. You set up all the rules.

And you and you have like these ways that it's almost like if you're playing like a video game with pinball machine and you hit the right button and it you just made a lot of money. Well that's what happens when we have bad weather in Texas. So volatility works. for uh, you know, a a market like that. It works for the people that own the system.

And it messes messes up um things for the consumer. And so that's that that's that's a thing a lot of people didn't understand. I you know, I still have a hard time getting my head around it, but the the punchline is like, Yeah, you know, bad people figured out a way to line their pockets and they're still doing it to this day.

Yeah, I mean I think that's very true. And I just want to put like a little bit of a bat signal out. I mean I just want to talk about this because one of the things, this is where you use me talking a little bit in the documentaries, the overlap between the environmental movement and uh Enron in California. So Ralph Kavanaugh of the NRDC, who became their power markets guy in the eighties.

Testifies before the um Oregon Public Utilities Commission, or whatever it's called. I can't remember the exact name for it. On Enron's behalf, so that they can buy up Portland gas and electric, um, which allows them to bid into California. Now, I've read some of Roth Kavanaugh's testimony and he says some very cringy things where he's like, Enron is a company you can trust. On record. By the way, this is the first time Kavanaugh ever testified on behalf of anyone at a public utility meeting.

But he said he justifies that with something really important and he intimates that the NRDC has worked with Enron over a series of projects over the last ten years. He gives that testimony in ninety six ninety seven, and Ron forms in eighty six. What I haven't been able to find, so this is the bat signal. If anybody knows, email me at PemetBarbarians.com.

If you have any of the dirt on what the Natural Resources Defense Council was doing with Enron from the 80s up until then, I think that would be very illuminating. Um it is one of the harder parts of the story to get to the bottom of. You know. Um and so Excuse me for being a little bit selfish here, Tyson, but I think we have that is a wild part of the story, and I'm really glad you guys told it because I think that that will change a lot of minds, which brings me to my next question, which is

Did your mind change at all on anything over the course of this? Um, in ways similar to the first movie, or no? Or just tell me about that? Um

You don't wanna mess with anyone. I I'm a big fan of respecting audiences and you gotta respect where people are and you wanna see where you can find, where you can meet in the middle, and all that good stuff. And so I'm I and I do understand like I understand I'm a an all of the above solution person. But it kind of depends on geography. It depends on your government. It depends on a lot of different things.

So while I was more that at the end of the first one. The second one, I mean, if anything, I was just really pumped for nuclear. I mean, I really was. It was um You know, I I went to the latest comp where they announced they want to triple nuclear, you know, by the year um twenty fifty. And I think that's a great

Yes, that is awesome. I love that that's aspirational. Let's c and let's celebrate that. Celebrate the wins'cause in this industry you have to, have to, have to celebrate the wins. You can't just

It's never you can't it's never not all enough. You know, let's let's be happy for a day, a week, a month, whatever. And then maybe we quadruple, quintuple, but uh you know, I think I think it's it's steps, right? And so yeah, if there was uh If the if there was a shift in my thinking, it was probably just more so I was more

um certain and in my takeaway from the first film that nuclear was was the source that I was most, you know, in love with, if that makes sense. Um but But I don't think I had any seismic changes like I did in the first one, just because I kinda completely changed on uh what that one seems to have been like, you know, a real rough and dirty introduction to the realities of energy. Yeah. It very much uh was. And you know, and I learned along the way and and and and

And the first movie once again does act as a decent close note uh um for, you know, getting your head around all things energy because I was getting my head around all things energy. I'm like, God, do I understand this? 'Cause if I don't understand it I can't expect someone else to understand it. And I

I was never the best math student or science student. I know I know my limitations. And so if I can then you know, Robert's a big fan of saying compared to what? Compared to what? Compared to what?

And so the refrigerator was kind of like that compared to what I think. And that helps me, you know, with our business, one of the things we do is we work for a lot of bigger companies where we'll have to do explainer videos. We're gonna have to talk about complex subject matter, but we gotta distill it down so people can understand it. And

I get that. I got I get that because oh you need I need to explain it so I can understand it. Well I can figure out how to do that. And if I can understand it, hopefully other audiences can as well.

Yeah, the the refrigerator part is a one of my favorite chapters in the book. um uh a question of power, Bryce's book. Um yeah My Refrigerator versus the World is I think the chapter of the book. And then it's obviously a huge part of the documentary, and I absolutely Love that because everybody's familiar with that. And that's sort of to bring it to the second series, I think what's sort of amazing about what you guys pulled off is that the grid is just really hard to talk about.

And it's hard to narratize. It is understatement of understatements. Yeah. Yep. Absolutely. I mean I think anyone Anyone that says, Hey, sit down with me and five minutes y'all understand us. If they say that about the grid then why? I mean, I'm sorry, they just does not work that way. People are like, What's the elevator pitch on the grid? And I'm like, Yeah

There isn't a we better be going to the all of the two hundredth floor. Yeah, are you going to heaven? You know, if you're going to heaven we could do this. You know. Yeah. So so it And and it's not just that. I mean, energy politics. I mean uh Pilke was great at this. Ener energy politics are incredibly tribal because everyone

um um has an opinion on it. But beyond that, everyone thinks that their opinion is the right opinion. You know, and so it's it's just a different animal. If you deal with anyone that's dealing with absolute you know, then there's there's probably a dollar to be made somewhere. Somewhere somewhere if someone's making a buck. Um, it just because if you're like, oh, it has to dust lead this. Well, that's not the way life works, right? You know, diversification is is is a thing.

And while I may not be a a fan of uh wind and solar in certain regards, I think it makes total sense in other regards. I mean I and I think it when you start picking winners and losers based on how I feel inside my my gut or my heart, not versus how engineers um, you know, um judge things. I think that's where things become problematic. And I think if there is something that folks should take away from our our series and even the last film gets that

politicians shouldn't be making decisions about the grid. That should be left to engineers. And and I don't know how we solve that, but but that's that's what's happened. You know, you have folks making decisions based on election cycles. And the grid is a lot different than an election cycle. Yeah, that's true. And I mean how how that shakes out and also there's just an American anxiety about expertise.

that I don't think is ever really going to go away. It seems to be like a permanent Yeah, I it's been around long enough that Tobeville writes about. Yeah. You know, so if we if it's been around since like the Jackson administration, it's probably gonna hang around for a while longer. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean I I think folks have been saying the elites for a really long time. Yeah. You know? They just said it differently. You know, and so yeah. Um, but the the My like I said earlier, I my hope is that folks watch this and they just have a better appreciation of like all the stuff that Patam went into it. And I can do that real quick. So uh and this is not gonna be your five minute explanation on what the grid is, but

A little explanation of what the series is. So episode one is Wonder Storm Yuri, you know, and you know, we got blacked out and that because that was kind of like the the lightning rod for Robert and myself. And then how was the grid originally built? So we got back into Roosevelt. What went into all that? Episode two gets into Enron deregulation and how both Texas and California went.

this unusual route that that involved doing something that hadn't been duck before and and then, you know, what are some of the unforeseen consequences that came about because of that? Episode three, we talk about green dreams that hits on both the Osing as well as You know. this this affection for for renewables. You know, why do we love them? Because it's, you know, it's the wind and it's the sun and, you know, there's something kind of like

And Jessica Lovering talked about it in our first film. She's like, there's just something wholesome. It's like grandma's apple pie, you know? Who doesn't like Remlin's apple pie? And then, you know, episode four, nuclear renaissance, it's like, hey, is this legit? Is what's happening legit? And it talks about

you know, Diablo Canyon and Pickering and Byron and Dresden, all the amazing folks that are out there trying to keep plants open and why they're doing it, including yourself. And then Industrial Cathedrals. And that one's just That one's just the bomb band, so thank you. That one talks about, you know, I love when you talk about, hey, everyone says nuclear takes too long and it costs too much. He's like, Kinda so what, right? You know it's like you know you know they're kind of

They say what they're gonna do with a tin, they last how long? A hundred years? We don't even know. I mean, that's what lasts a hundred years or more, you know? And so it's like and what can do the things that nuclear energy can do. So so that's what our series does. And hopefully, you know, that'll that'll help folks out a little bit as they're kind of going through what I went through during our first series and and now with this

Yeah, well I mean thank you guys for featuring the industrial uh cathedrals idea. Like that was So I don't wanna say it was a toss off idea because I wrote a very serious essay about it, but it was not something I ever expected to

catch on. It was like a very personal idea to me that I was like, Well, I feel the need to express this. And then it like, you know, went from there. Um So what was it like for you to see your your your you know you wrote a paper on it, you've obviously thought about this a lot, to then see that, you know, in video voice.

You know, what what was it like in an episodic form? Yeah. I mean that was um Well, first of all, it was a little bit surprising because I actually, despite running this podcast, don't talk about nuclear as much as I used to. And that's mostly because I almost spend more time talking about natural gas because I talk ab I write about the grid every single day.

So you're gonna write about like what's of course what's really happening. And and uh not that nuclear isn't happening, of course. And I think it's also that um In writing Grid Brief, I've had to restrain the advocate within me so that I can give my readers

A fair appraisal of what's going on, because I have like investors that read that newsletter. And I'm not being fair to them. Of course, I'm letting my preferences get too far out ahead of me. You know? Right. Um, so I was There was a moment of almost like surprising like joy.

I was just like, Oh yeah, that was cool. Like that you know, I'm still into that. Yeah, exactly. So I was like, this is cool. And the idea that that would get communicated to a larger suite of people was really, really exciting because I have since taken, you know, I use the phrase industrial common. in the interview of the documentary too. And that's something that now that I'm writing my own book on the grid.

Is something I want to be the concluding chapter where I take the industrial cathedral's idea and the industrial commons idea and say, what we have to realize is that industrial modernity is aging now. And so we need a different set of values and tools for thinking about what it means to steward that.

So ironically, we almost have to approach it the same way that our hardcore conservationists have approached things like forests. That's interesting. Yeah. You know, and so because this is our patrimon. Right. A lot of us it's like the Constitution. Everything else sort of falls apart that has made America America at this point. Um, and so we have to be sensitive to that. And so I think getting people to think in longer time horizons. Right, like what if we have uh nuclear plants that survive

for perhaps hundreds of years. Right? Like let's say maximum. And so they we end up having an America where nuclear has been a part of the American Republic. for more than it didn't exist. Right. That's kind of cool. Right. That's a very surprising story to think about, right? Yeah. And so that's sort of how I'm starting to think about the grid. So it was sort of nice to see the germs of these ideas.

That I've had and that I'm I've been sort of puzzling over. Um, because you know, I've like given a lecture at a university on this idea since, you know, all of this stuff and tried to figure out how these ideas are gonna go over. And I think um I think what what is a win for me personally, as somebody that's in your documentary, is that it gets people out of crisis mode things.

about the grid. I'm very worried about what's happening to the future of the grid. I write about that. One of the things I'm really trying to wash myself for is that I don't become the mirror of the climate act.

Yeah, for sure. You know, and so what is that conversation look like? And how do we have greater prudence and sobriety generally about what it means to have this stuff? So if you get I think I was just gonna say, I mean, you know, if you tell everyone the sky is falling, but you tell'em that every single day for years and years and years. Are they gonna believe ya? You know, the catastrophism's gotten a bit a bit out of hand. So I I definitely appreciate not sensationalizing for the

for the mere sake of sensationalizing. It's like this is what this means. This is why this happens, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and also, you know, I think you guys give a very measured appreciation of what's going on in the grid'cause it's not the sky's falling. And the greatest falling apart. It's that, you know, we're We've we're on some bad trajectories right now. And you can't you can't deny that. But that's my W. What's a W for you?

if like that you want for the audience after after watching it.'Cause so you've done the broad level thing of like people are just more familiar with how to talk about that. Right. But you know, there's always like the feast or famine spectrum of this. And that seems closer to the

Feminine where it's just like that's if I get anyone to pay attention to the thing generally. But then there's always like a lever up from there. You know? So what tell me what some of the levers up of what you want from people?

Yeah, Robert and I have talked about this a bunch. Um, you know. the one you know, the the the main thing, obviously, change conversation. You know, like you said, uh change conversations or the way people think and talk about energy is different. They have a uh a greater appreciation for it. Um selfishly, you know. If you do it right, you get to do it again. You know, uh I mean

There are so many stories to be told. You know, there's so many stories on the cutting room floor from this series and from our last one, you know, that that didn't make it out because you You have to they all have to work together, you know, and you can always sometimes like I really w there was this great water purification story from last one that didn't make it in, so we put it on the website. And it was just amazing. But I mean

I kept trying to drop it into like minute thirty five in the film and it just would not work. It it doesn't even it's not gonna go there. It's oh and by the way, there's this really cool thing right here, you know, it doesn't work that way.

And so, you know, ideally if if we If we if we do our job and we tell the story in a way that people find entertaining and compelling and they wanna, you know, they want to see that next episode and hopefully at the end of it, they want to see more because there are so many more stories to tell.

You know, we I don't know if I'll be able to convince Robert of this after he did the first one. He was like, I did a book and a movie. That was crazy. Why would I do it? I was like, Oh, you want to go do another one? And it took some convincing and he did it.

I don't know if uh if that's gonna be an easy sell, but to me, I mean you have the terawatt challenge. You have to double our electricity supply over the next twenty years or whatever. What's that gonna look like? You have the nuclear renaissance. You know, all these plants, okay, what does success look like? It means more plants get saved.

Um uh SMRs, yeah, uh are are uh you know the the it's a very much a buzzword now. Um you have the coal uh it's a nuclear uh trajectory. So yeah, uh a win to me, a big win to me, is that Yes. We we saw what you did. We do have a greater appreciation for it. We're gonna make s and and please give us more. Let me let me watch something else about this because I found it entertaining enough that I want to do it again.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean you want repeat customers, right? Like that's the Well and I mean that's part of how the conversation changes. I am fascinated with stories that don't turn out the way you thought they were going to. And that's what happened with the series. And that's I mean with the first film and that kind of what happened here. I mean the OC story is a very much a big part of that. One, I I still can't get my head around that, you know, as I said before, just how brazen I now was.

But then seeing where things landed, December 20th of last year, and you know, there was a huge win. A lot of folks didn't see that happen. I mean they just didn't, you know, the gliders, you know, kinda went or they get belled out. And so seeing seeing something get flipped on its head, yeah, I think will encourage people to be like to pause and and take notice. Well I mean uh you guys also couldn't have picked uh

better timing for featuring the Osage story more in terms of the Scorsese movie coming out, uh, which was one of the best films of the last year, probably one of his best films in a while. Um And uh I'm very excited to see how people respond to that one because it is uh I mean, it it's impossible not to cheer for them. Yeah. Well, I mean Yeah, I we interviewed, you know, uh Tommy Daniels, the oldest full full blood Osage, one of like six uh remaining uh on full bloods. And so it's there's

There are a lot of layers to our series and I think folks will be pretty content, you know, tucking in in any one of those layers. But the Osage, yeah, it's it's it's probably their favorite story. I mean, we already talked about it. We wouldn't say Fukushima, you know. You know, you talk about sobering. Robert's been a natural gas and nuclear guy for fifteen years longer.

And I remember meeting him immediately after, you know,'cause he was able to go to the tower to like look over um the wreckage and everything in the rebuild. And I I didn't know I went to Fukushima Daiichi. shuts and footage. And so afterwards I'm like, How you doing? He's like, Vulver? I can tell ya.

sobering. He's like, you know, it's it's the task will not be easy. I was like, are you still pro nuclear? Of course I yeah, I'm pro nuclear, but I mean it's it's none of this is gonna be simple, fast, or cheap. And we just need to keep that in mind. Mm-hmm. So yeah.

That's the story of the stories. I think that's absolutely true. So speaking of of stories, you know, we've already mentioned talk with this generator guy or whatever. Tell me about some some gems that got left on the cutting room floor here a little bit. Is there anything that you wished like the water purification thing that you could have gotten in that just didn't fit the narrative? Is there anything you're like, ooh, like I'm still curious about that?

I need I need to I I do need to like log like three or four of these so I can keep'em on uh uh instant recall'cause I don't have any major ones. I can tell you the biggest thing Well, okay. So We said earlier this is originally gonna be an eighty minute feature. You know, the the way we do, you know, little, you know

Filmmaking 101 for us. The way we do would do this on the last um project, we would go to a location, we'd come back and hand it off to my editor, he'd put together assembly cut. Go to another location, hand off to my editor, he'd put together assembly cut.

Um, we didn't quite have that luxury on this one because we were figuring it out along the way. There were parts that we really, really knew, but other parts we didn't. And so that's not how this one was tackled. And so the a lot of the assemblies happened after all the travel was. And so there was just like reliving things from a year ago or a year and a half ago, like really getting it back into the stories. So when we built that first cut, it was a hundred and forty minutes. Um it was just

friggin' heavy. I mean, and I was lost throughout it. And we had two editors working on a project, uh, Temp Powers uh uh and and Lauren Sanders and and we and both of our editors um they had different stripes. Um and so that was they had different things that they leaned into, which was great. But seeing that long cut and then figuring out, man, we're gonna have to get a riddle a lot of this if anyone's gonna watch this thing, and then turning it into a series.

I think it meant we actually gotta touch on more stories because we could do like little brief stories and like little windows, as opposed to having like, oh, okay, we need to we need this beat of the film to be eight minutes long. How are we gonna satisfy that? But there Trying to go back through. Went to Greece.

I have amazing footage of the Parthenon and Acropolis, drones all over the place, some really good interviews. Greece didn't make it in the cut. Went to England and got a couple really amazing interviews with some folks. And their stories make a ton of sense.

still quite didn't make it into here because the way we tackled the Ukraine story and energy security in episode five didn't really lend itself to that. So we have we have some went to went to Egypt. Got a bunch of interviews news uh at COP twenty seven and I think we have a shot of Paris. in in those those uh those shots. So Yeah.

the the interview I was saddest about not getting uh was Paris, Surtee's wines. Because um'cause I I loved her work. Yeah, she's great. I think she and she has just an amazing voice. I love what she's done. But also, um I was slated to interview her last year, um, during South by Southwest and I got COVID. And so I couldn't and this is as we're like in the kind of like, okay, well, Paris.

I'll see you on the next one. I told her this that as well because I mean she I mean, her take her take on on all things nuclear is just stack echo, but I also love where she comes out of from, native California and all that kinda good stuff. So yeah. There are so many stories to be told. So many

No, there are. There are. And there's more to be told. No, I um You know, I I really admire her and everything she's done. I've I've met her when I was working for Michael and um, you know, just watching her come into her power has been this amazing, you know, thing to see as a fellow nuclear advocate. So I do hope that happens. Tell me about Cop a little bit. Um because well, that's a good question because I still don't get caught.

In some fundamental way. So like just you were there to screen part of the movie and to get some interviews. Right. That's my understanding of of why you were there. So I went to two of'em. I went to COP twenty seven in Egypt and that was at the tail end of kind of like a year, but we got some got some interviews in England, went to Greece, went to COP.

Which actually led to my scariest story here, because I inadvertently brought a drone to Egypt, which you don't want to do. Um and then I went back to England and and um got another interview and back to the States. Um at that one, we were screening um our first film. And for us it was uh, you know, there the the IEA weren't the screened, Adams for Nuclear had a great screening, write QA, all that kind of good stuff. And that was That was

me kind of at my worst'cause it was at the end of the production cycle, you know, but we've just been shooting so much. You've been grinding. Yeah. I be yeah, exactly. Like really long Lots of hours, all that kind of good stuff. Um, so I didn't get a a a true, true handle on it, but I spent a lot of time with Kiefer. And um and some of the other um uh nuclear young generation folks and and and and

I learned that it was weird. I didn't expect nuclear to kind of like at Cop twenty seven, it felt like almost like a bastard stepchild. But like nuclear wasn't really something that was considered by most folks. I mean there were a lot I mean, everywhere you went it was like And we're gonna be clean and green and renewable and this is how we're gonna do it.

the best for the poorest among us and all this other stuff. And I just kept in my head, I was like, but the these are not the stories I've heard when when I've gone to countries when they're talking about what they want their energy next to be. Um, latest cop, cup twenty eight, we uh um screenshot the episodes, didn't have any interviews there. That was strictly to get the word out about the series.

Well, they had an entire like separate nuclear um um thing, you know, that went on for days and it was spectacular. And I did not ever imagine like I never imagined I can't remember it was one of one of the Highnesses. So it's Royal Highness, I don't remember which name it was. But he was talking about Morocca. And while he was talking about it, he's like

Folks probably don't know this, but over twenty percent of the workforce is made up of women. My wife and I brought my wife, Indiana, um, to the thing. And You know, I think, you know, us in the States will probably have our own views as to oh, it's Middle East and we put them all into one bucket. I didn't realize that Saudi Arabia, uh, you know, in

New AE had very different standards on all the stuff. I never envisioned the, you know, the one of the main uh employees from Baraka, there's uh the head of uh um um women in nuclear uh in that area. He called her out, she stood up. It was just it was a total mind shift from what I'd seen at the previous flood. And then the announcement was made that we're gonna triple nuclear by twenty fifty and all the these countries are getting on board too,'cause so that was that was pretty remarkable.

I um I like the idea of countries getting together to figure out how can we move forward together, but I think it's probably not unlike getting I don't know. That's inappropriate, so I'm not gonna show that. It's probably not unlike Good save, Culver. Yeah. It's probably not unlike being in Austin on Sixth Street at one AM. And you're with a bunch of friends and you're trying to figure out where to go next and you can't decide on it. That's how I feel those conversations go.

I am incredibly appreciative of being fortunate enough to go to cop Lonic Seven to show Christmas cop. And I think that you know what? ISK. It's a strong word. I don't understand um ridiculing um um folks that don't agree with you because you're never gonna win them over. But I do understand folks.

pontificating on the absurdity of some of the things that go on at cop because it does feel like it's a whole bunch of poppin' circumstance or what doesn't feel like a a lot at the end of the day. But you know what? Pet change this year.

Because they made a huge announcement about nuclear that I never anticipated. So on copper changing. Yeah. Well I talked to Mark Nelson a little bit about it after after he went and he said One of the biggest things that seemed to have changed is that there were real deal energy people and engineers there. And all of the people that had just been doing climatology and renewables boosterism were like, who the hell are these guys?

Yeah. What do we do with people that understand how energy works? Yeah. What's uh what's going on? What is this about? Yeah, so I think you know, I think that's good. You know, I um I see I seem to go back and forth. Like what frustrates me at this point is the way in which these big green groups have this international footprint.

and the way that they can just sway things. So we're talking right after Biden has just decided to hit pause on a bunch of L and G facilities in Louisiana, in the Gulf of Mexico, seemingly because some climate ad advocates called the White House. Then we're like, hey, we don't like that. And that's insane to me, like that level of power. you know, like that. I'm very

Uh like if you wanted to have like if there were a spell that could instantly turn me into Pat Buchanan, it's that and the phrase global democracy. You know? Yeah. You know, that's not to say that I agree with with Mr. Buchanan, right? But I understand that. Yes. Yeah. I mean I don't know. I I think a a lot of When it comes when it comes to just in general, there's

there's this belief that we can just pull fossil fuels out of the equation and we're just and renewables are just gonna run it'cause we built up all these renewables and we're just gonna go and it just doesn't work that way unfortunately. And to me it's it's like if my six year old daughter were playing with she has this really cute unicorn toy um that's robotic and it takes two bags. And it's like she played with it until it was done.

And then I put in two more batteries and and I'm like, okay, I know you can you can uh keep on playing with us until it's done and then we're gonna go to we're gonna go to some other form of power and you're just gonna play with it as Just, you know, if the powers are on you get a play with it. If you don't I don't know. It's I'm I'm butchering the analogy, but to me it's like you don't you don't take away power source. Unless you have equal

or above power sources to replace them. You just you just don't do that. And so I don't quite I don't get the thinking behind it.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So and and that's all to say, you know, at the same time, one of the things that I've uh started to realize is that you're right about maybe even the need for a level of pomp and circumstance. Yep. For politics to work. And that's just a reality. And who actually brought me to that was reading the founding father John Adams. You know, and everybody dunks on him for saying we should have formal titles.

for the president whatever. Right. Really what he was trying to do was A to elevate the esteem of America in the world. And at the time, it would have been weird to have a head of state that wasn't Your Royal Highness, the President of the United States of America, or whatever. Um but he understood that if you wanted to draw some of the best and most ambitious into service, you would want to be able you want opportunities for them to win laurel.

Of course. Well, I mean, dude, case in point, you know, why did I go to cop? You know, one, we thought there were some stories that we can get there, but the other part of it is, you know, going back to the investors from our previous film and the donors on this series.

telling them, yeah, we we screened a couple of our episodes at COP. Like that's that's a statement. That's yeah. Not a lot of lets can say that. Yeah. No, it's meaningful. Well and you have the right type of eyeballs there. Whether anybody likes it or not. Yeah, this is maybe my controversial point here. So we talked earlier about how, you know, engineers should have a greater amount of license um over how the system operates than

our political class. The truth of the matter is, when you're dealing with things like the grid that have this level of sophistication. It creates hierarchies on epistemics alone. The hierarchies of knowledge that it takes to run, maintain, and make informed decisions about these things are difficult in a democratic setting. Yeah. Is an elite project. If you want to change minds about how some of this works, you have to go talk to people who are those elites and get their eyeballs on.

As an American, that makes me feel all sorts of uncomfortable and I don't like that. But you know, the world isn't about what you like. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I uh You say in a the like people can't see your face, but you sit with the most pained look on your face. I mean I Yes, that is that is uh

Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Well but okay. So let's let's bring it back to the film though, just real quickly for just one last little moment. Then this is gonna be my final comment on it in light of the uh uncomfortable thing we just agreed to. Okay, cool. Is that there is still the check of the people. Right? That still exists in this country and that's important. You know, and so for everyday people to have a more elevated appreciation of this makes it easier to ameliorate that hierarchy.

Well, I mean, I think part of it is like, okay, I'm pissed. Why am I pissed? Who do I need to be pissed at? What are we going to do about it? You know, why are my electricity bills more expensive? You know, I live in California. They're this much more than they were ten years ago. Why are they so damn expensive? What's causing this? You know. It's like a lot of it is, you know, it's it shouldn't just be rinse and repeat life stuff. It's like let's take a deeper level of

understanding of what's going on and find out find out the why, right? You know, and so hopefully that's what what our series will allow some folks to do because I learned a lot, once again. I mean I I always do and it it There there are a lot of decisions being made. I mean, I think your line, there are a lot of people being impacted by this that had no uh input whatsoever on on the decision making process. And that and that and that and you were talking about Europe at the time.

But it's same for the states, it's same for most of the world. And so I think having an understanding of of the why behind it all is is incredibly helpful. Yeah, I think so too. And I hope I hope it's a smashing success for you guys. So everybody, you can find the link to it in the show notes. It's on YouTube. Share it with all your friends. It's juicemenerseeries.com. Juicemiseries.com.

So there you go. No, absolutely. And you can find the first movie in the show notes. I'll have the link to that there so that if you want to do the double feature, which I highly recommend, uh a crackling Saturday night. um endeavor, uh you can do that. And that being said, Tyson, thanks for coming on. Thank you so much for having me on the show. I mean, I really appreciate it. Appreciate you, buddy. All right, everybody, remember stay sharp, stay strong, and stay radiant. We will see you next.