118. Dr. Elizabeth Gow: How Many Birds Do Cats Kill?

With my guest today , we discussed this topic , but we also discussed cats . I have a cat . His name is Moe . Moe gets up to all types of things in the house , but with my guest , we dive into what cats get up to when we're not watching them , when they're out in the environment . Did you know that they kill birds ?

These are some of the topics we cover today . My guest today is Elizabeth . Yeah , elizabeth , what a pleasure it is to sit down with you . I've been very excited to speak with you . Would you mind introducing yourself ?

Steve Irwin and I just got really fascinated with all kinds of different animals and in Hawaii they behave and how they behave , and then eventually , you know , one thing led to another and ended up making a career out of it .

So I think there's always this innate thing when you're a kid and then you know Some people stick with that and other people shy away from it as they get older . But it's just a fascination of just seeing , seeing animals and then starting to get like why are they doing this ? Like why are they behaving in this way ?

And that's kind of where you know the science kind of comes in later on .

And sometimes we miss out on that because we're still focused on what people are saying .

I often understand them from an animal perspective , or try to , and then we're like , oh , this is what this bird does , and then , oh , this human does this as well .

You kind of rebel against it and also there was never Everyone I knew that like birds was over like 40 or 50 and when you're , you know , a teenager that you don't have a role miles there younger . So I didn't get into birds until I started to meet some younger scientists that you know .

I got to see a little bit of what they're doing and I got to see really colorful birds and watch them through photography .

I was like really into photography and Trying to take photos of mammals which are like the charismatic animals , but there's not as many mammals as around as there are birds and so as I was like waiting for you know mammals to do something , I'd be watching the birds and then starting to get really fascinated with them and then you start to look in bird books

and see , oh , wow , there's like these amazingly beautiful birds , like scarlet tenders and their bright red , black wings , and these warblers . They're bright , yellow and green and in black . And then , and it gets really , when you start seeing that and you start seeing those birds in nature , it like opens your eyes up to an a total different world .

bird migration . That was when I was kind of getting started as a researcher and I had an opportunity , working with Dr Bridget Suchfray , who was my master supervisor , and of these little tiny devices called geolocators , or light level geolocators , that you put on the backs of birds .

You put them on like a little backpack that goes on their kind of on their butt , and so these tags , they could tell us where birds were going , and back then no one had ever tracked small birds . You know , you could put on larger birds , they could take these big tags and you can follow them . These little tiny birds that are 50 grams .

So 50 grams is like four tunies and you're following your hands , so very , very light . So these devices were like a gram , so again , very , very light , about the size of your fingernail , and so we put them on the backs of birds and back in 2007 , we'd never done this we put them on . We had to put them on the birds .

They had to come back the following year and when we got them back and you download this information that tells you all about these different light levels , and light levels can tell you where a bird is , in the sense of like you can get the latitude and longitude from the sunrise and sunset times , as well as the local midnight in noon , and then that information

can tell us where are they on earth , because there's only one place that has these specific sunrise and sunset times , knowing one place , specific noon or sunset or midnight , and from there we could see exactly where they were . And so , as we were , we caught our first birds , which is a little bit like when you catch a bird with this data on it .

It's kind of like winning a big championship .

We just bird and then we download the data into a computer and we got to see , you know , the first record of a small 50 grand bird on its migration from northwestern Pennsylvania down to please , and this is it's remarkable because it was doing this migration in like five , six days from Belize up to Pennsylvania in the spring , and so a 50 grand bird is flying

it's like three , 4,000 kilometers and in days , and so bird migration . You know , when we start present that work . People were just so fascinated because no one had really realized how fast these birds were going .

We thought they were moving fast , but we'd never actually seen these tracks , and so I think that story to me kind of shows just how amazing bird migration is . Because they move . Some birds will move very , very fast , they cover big distances , and they're doing it all on their wing power .

The insects aren't here in the winter , so they have to go and find them , and so they go down to southern areas in the tropics where there's lots of insects , just lots of food , and they actually spend most of the year in these sort of southern places . And it's about 70% to 90% of birds that are migratory in Canada .

So a very large number of birds are going southern US , southern Southern Canada and the lower mainland region of BC . There's a lot of birds for Alaska that actually winter in that region , and then a lot of birds are going down central South America , mexico , quite far distances .

A lot of shorebirds will travel very , very long distances that come all the way up from Alaska down to the very South America , as far as South as you can go in South America , and so they're traveling under their own wings and these couple hundred grand birds are flying thousands and thousands of kilometers a year .

So it's like you go and you try to make sure you eat the food that you really like , and that's a lot like birds , although it's a little bit more specific , but their whole digestive systems are adopted to certain foods and so a lot of these shorebirds in Western Sampai bird .

They've been doing these migrations for thousands and thousands of years and so over their evolution time they've evolved to feed off these resources that are very plentiful , because it probably there aren't other birds interfering or using those resources . It's a resource that they can get .

That's beneficial for them , that they need to get to the nurse their non-breeding areas .

In the past 40 , 50 years we've lost over a total of three billion birds , and most birds songbird species that breed in Canada . Their populations have declined 30 , 40 , 50 , 60% , so some of them even 90% , and so there's way , way fewer birds now than there was 50 years ago and I've seen that in my lifetime . Most birders have seen that change .

And so birds are telling us they're literally a canary in the cold mind . They're telling us that we're changing our habitats so much that it's affecting us and we start to see that human health effects . We see that with climate change , all these things where birds have literally been telling us this is happening . We just haven't always been paying attention .

We're changing everything about the environment , and some birds are very they're fine in that sort of thing they're just adapted for that but others aren't , and a lot of the birds that are declining they're really picky .

They're kind of like picky eaters or they're picky about where they live , and they're ones that are really telling us yeah , we've changed the environment so much , there's nowhere they can live or where they're comfortable .

Are there clear things that we can stop doing or modify our behavior in order to start to address these issues , or are these more niche areas where it would be challenging to kind of make a movement or an approach that everybody can get on board with ?

Individual people can do so , these big things . But there's also sort of direct mortality things . There's things like birds hitting windows so you can put decals on your windows , and it's hundreds of millions of birds a year in Canada . They're killed by windows Cats . You can keep your cat indoors . You can provide enrichment for the cat inside .

You can drive less , which helps with climate change . There's a lot of little things that you can do and people often forget . They think , oh , what I do is not going to make a difference . But all the little things that you do can make a big difference . Even buying recycled toilet paper is beneficial .

It uses recycled paper as opposed to cutting down trees or not using as many resources for things .

Next to nice thorough streets I think there's lots of barn swallows where I live that are zipping around my street , but they're very small birds and they eat insects and there's some of the birds that have faced some of the biggest declines .

So some of them are 80 , 90% of their populations are gone , and they're really indicating that they're showing that our insect populations , which insects are one of the base of the pyramid of our ecosystems , and part of the reason that those aerial insectivores are declined is likely due to changes in insects either insect abundances , biodiversity , basically massive

changes in the food that they need . So not only maybe they're losing habitat for them to nest in , which is one factor , there also isn't the food necessary for them to raise their young .

Animals can't evolve in that space and that speed , and some are more flexible than others . So they're able to .

They just have a broader niche , or there's more things that they can eat , there's more places that they can nest , there's more places that they can go , they have a bigger habitat that they like to be in , and they often are doing much better than ones that are very narrow focused , and so it really is a matter of they just don't have the time to evolve .

We need these massive global efforts to change our emissions and decarbonize , and those are kind of like the foundational things I think we really need to do right now .

And so , yeah , my research is looking at what cats do when they're outside and we can't see them , and so I've been . We attach little GPS trackers on their collars and also some cameras on them , and we also use remote trail cameras in people's yards to see where cats are . And then the cameras that we have on cats is to see what they're doing .

And so we've been sitting cats for a number of years and we're still kind of I can't really tell you all the results , but we are seeing cats will move . Some cats will move a lot . Some will go several city blocks away from where their owners live and others will stay in their yard . And some cats are very adventurous . They're traveling quite far .

They're going into , like people's basements , they climb like on people's cars , they're climbing up trees and going through fences and sometimes into construction sites and others , like they don't do a lot , they just kind of go to their yard , their neighbor's yard .

They come back home and they repeat over and over again , and so we're getting this really interesting view on what cats are doing , which is important because knowing what they're doing . One from my side is the ecologist , so I'm interested what sort of impacts cats have on birds , which is something we know . It's a lot .

We know cats kill a lot of birds , but we're missing some of the specific details , particularly in Canada . So I'm wondering when and what context are they killing birds ? Where are they doing it ? What species ? But also the other side of the cat behavior how can we learn about cat behavior outside so that we can create better environments for cats indoors ?

And I think that's key .

But I walk around my neighborhood in the evening and I see four or five cats and there's actually probably for every I have to say , for every cat you see , there's probably one or two more hiding there outside . So cats are the most plentiful mesopredators . So mesopredators are kind of they're predators , but they also have a predators above them .

So , for instance , coyotes , they're the most abundant predator in urban systems by like six or seven times . So there's more cats than pretty well any other predator in urban places . And so cats are around people . Birds love to congregate in cities and so cats certainly do . They have lots of opportunity to capture birds and kill birds .

The exact numbers we don't know , and that's some of what my research is trying to get at is more details on that but it's a very large number and it's not just the adults that they're killing . They also will like take down nests and the parents , and sometimes if a cat kills a parent that has a nest , those nestlings also die . So it's it's a lot .

There's a lot of potential impacts on them and also mammals . We forget to like think , oh , cats hunt mice and pests and rats and all that , but they also hunt a lot of native mammals that are beneficial for our ecosystems , and bats .

Bats are also like birds , declining very rapidly , and cats will also hunt bats and with the bats and a lot of other animals , they can spread disease to the cats but then spread it to other cats that then spread it to their owners , and so cats are often like these , major disease transmitters .

So it's like , yeah , that 20% I don't know exact number yet , but it's probably around that 20 , it were from 10 to 30% that are capturing one to five animals a night , sort of thing , not all birds , but it's certain cats are the main ones .

What are we looking at in terms of the cats and whether or not they're being properly taken care of ?

That's quite recent . A lot of people say , well , cats domesticated themselves , so they have these two sides . They're wild . They have this very wild side and anyone that has a cat is gonna tell you your cat has a wild side .

It's like this predator living in your house , but they also have this very companion animal , like they're in our beds , they're snuggling up to us , and so these two sides make them a very conflicted species and so they have this very long history of being sort of this conflicted species .

And so some of the cats that are outside , they are cats that people put outside , and in Canada it's about 30% of people will put their cats outside . So most people don't , but this small portion do , and they put out sort of one to two cats . Most people have one or two cats and so a lot of the cats outside are cats that people own .

But if the cats don't have owners or they aren't spayed or neutered . Sometimes their populations can get very , very high . So cats are not treated like a lot of other domestic animals . People think of them as more disposable types of pets . Unfortunately , and because you can leave them that's one of their characteristics they can actually .

They're the only domesticated animal that I know of that can live without people influence , so they can completely survive on their own . And so some of these people get a cat . They can't manage that cat and they dump them .

I just saw an article that someone was hosting on a local community group about a pile of cats that were just dumped where I live and it's like , yeah , this is a common problem when people sometimes just like , oh , I'm just gonna let the cat out and I'm gonna move away . Which happens ? Those cats sometimes they'll reproduce with other cats .

There's kittens and the populations can grow very , very fast . So cats can have anywhere from one to three litters a year , and so one cat that you put outside that's not spayed can suddenly have 20 , 30 cats in a year .

My understanding is that , like our history with dogs is very much the same , where we've built this relationship over time and you see , on one hand , the beauty that we can have , this connection we can have , but also the challenges that we can create when , as you kind of described I find that word fascinating the word conflicted , that they have these two sides .

Can you elaborate a bit on that ?

They're great , they make great pets , people love them , but they really do live sometimes these conflicted worlds where some cats are very like they're afraid of going outside , and others are like if you let me go outside , I'm gonna run around and they love it , but then others are much more wild .

So there's a lot of variation in personalities with cats , just like , where every person's a little bit different . So , yeah , I think it's very conflicted in that in itself creates a lot of challenges .

We're looking at like people have different views on cats as well , so it's not just the cats , it's people's views a lot of .

In cities , most more people keep their cats inside , as in rural areas fewer people do , because they see cats more as like pest controllers and in belonging outside In cities , I think people are aware of like increased chances of them being hit by cars or the coyotes that might run down the streets and capture the cats and all those sorts of things .

A lot more people tend to keep their cats inside in cities and in some of that is like a cultural norm too . In some places there's there seems to be pockets of places that more people put them outside .

It's like if your neighbor puts your cat outside , you're more likely to put your cat outside just because you want to fit in , so you just do what lets you fit in . But if no one has their cat outside , people tend to follow that .

So it's really like thinking cats we call them , challenges associated with cats are really one of these wicked problems we talk about wicked problems are these problems that don't necessarily have a solution and they're really complex and challenging and there's multiple different sides to them .

So the challenges around domestic cats for this a lot isn't something you can just solve by saying everyone has to keep their cat inside . It's like , oh , we have to work with people . There's social justice issues or challenges of cats . If you don't have the resources to stay new to your cat , it costs like five , six , $700 , your cat's feet are neutered .

Well , a lot of people don't have that , but they need the companionship of a cat or how a cat can provide them . So it's a very complex , challenging problem .

If you buy a cat , try and keep it indoors , but not a clear like oh , if you see a cat walking down the road , take it into your home , keep it inside . That we're just going to address this overnight .

Like you think of smoking , how that was , like I know I grew up in the 80s and so everyone still smoked everywhere and it was a multi-year , like decades , of transitioning to these multiple steps to reduce , like you can only smoke in certain areas now , like you can smoke in your house , you can smoke only in certain places , you can't smoke in restaurants , and

all that . It's moving slowly through these steps where now I talk with a lot of cat owners and people do what's best for the cat , they want to do what they think is best and they think playing their cat outside gives it exercise , it gives the enrichment that they maybe they don't want to or can't provide at home or the cat's always been outside .

So it's really hard to change habits , like just think of any habit that you have . It's super hard to change , right . It's the same with cats , it's the same with cat owners . You know it's really hard to change those habits , so it takes time . And it's also like if you get another cat , like let's start it off , right .

You know there's lots and lots and lots of resources online like PCS . Pca has tons of resources on how to like keep your cat aside , provide enrichment , you know , making sure that it has different climbing structures , it has toys you play with it , it gets exercise .

All those different things are really key and it's much easier to do when you have a kitten that you start from that level than a cat that's been outside its whole life .

But once I started , you know , talking and talking to people in cat welfare , talking to veterinarians , talking to cats like lots of cat owners put their cats outside , talking to people that focus on how to improve welfare and in people's homes for cats , it really started to make me kind of see the bigger picture .

So I think having conversations with people and so you know , cats are really divisive topic and , like some people really hate cats I hear that a lot but also people really love cats and so there's all these different sides .

So I think really trying to see where others are at and why they may have different views and values , and kind of just trying to have that conversation , and that's sort of the foundation of a lot of conservation is really people and how we can be better as a society to help conserve our resources and so on .

The Sousa Center at Bridge , columbia , has great resources on , like , how to provide enrichment in the home , how to least train your cat . So , you know , maybe try to learn a little bit about , like , what you can do .

And I recognize , like , as I mentioned , it's maybe not your cat you know the cat now that you have that you put outside , but maybe your next cat . Or maybe you start having conversation if you're a kind of on the other side where you really don't like cats , starting to talk to people that maybe put their cats outside and find out why .

Why do they do that . And you know it's really . You know people always like to do what they think is best and there is certainly a large body of you know veterinarians and their people that think you know cats should be outside because of that wild side . And just , I think , trying to understand those different perspectives , I think , any sort of big challenge .

It's always good to understand the different values and perspectives of people .

But it's also fascinating that we own these animals and we have no idea what they're doing .

How is somebody sitting there weighing this with like increasing the rat populations and and how ? What's the scale ? Is it all good increasing rat populations ?

Because I interviewed Aaron Ryan , who works for the VC , spca , and she points out rat poison is horrible because the rat eats it , gets out , and then a bird eats it or a cat eats it and then they're poisoned , and then something else eats that and then they're poisoned .

So it's not like automatically better to do these and I think about these issues and I'm like I hope somebody else is weighing these things , because I am not proficient enough in this information . I just know cause and effect . When you try and do something good , it can have negative ramifications .

Somehow we are , we are , as consumers , taking the brunt of the responsibility when it is absolutely industry and business that should be footing the bill for these impacts . And when I think about now I'm asking for a bag , it's 20 cents per bag . Well , in the 1980s and 90s , those , those paper bags , were free .

So why am I now paying for this when it's better for the environment ? So you should incentivize business to use those instead . But that shouldn't come on to me as a consumer and I want to play a role . But now we're just adding in these little extra charges .

So when people are already stressed about going to the grocery store , now we have to stress about whether or not you brought an extra bag .

And , to be clear , those reusable bags are horrible for the environment long term , in the , in the short term , yes , you can use those more than a plastic bag , but they are no better and you are not a better person for having 100 of those bags . That's not a long term improvement . It's just offsetting a long term problem .

So I think about these issues a lot and get frustrated because I don't know what the right answer is . But I do worry about putting it too much on the individual .

again . It's like putting it on the individual because there's this feeling of like what you need to do your part and so you don't get to say anything . And it's like this giant industry is making millions of dollars and you don't think the paper bag industry saw an uptick in their sales and their profitability .

Like it's 100% , and somehow it's on me to know what the bill for this transition .