114. Bruce McIvor: Reconciliation, Land Acknowledgements & Pretendians

My conversation today is with the author of Stand Off Why reconciliation fails Indigenous people and how to fix it . Today's guest is Bruce McIver . Bruce McIver , it is such a privilege to sit down with you today . I am fascinated by your work . Going through law school , you're one of the pillars to learn from and to enjoy reading your books .

Would you mind giving listeners a brief introduction of yourself ?

I grew up with rocks and swamp because we were part of the Red River , métis that were displaced out of St Peter's . We were moved up north and picked a lot of rocks . When I was a kid I decided I needed to do something else . That's what ultimately led me to being a lawyer . I'm the senior partner at First People's Law .

We're fortunate enough to work with First Nations all across Canada , coast to Coast , on defending their title and rights . It's a fantastic work . I just feel so honored every day to show up and to do this work , just to be part of that effort that Indigenous people have been making for generations all across the country .

I really need to thank them , because they saw that maybe I had a little bit of potential here . They invited me in and got me working on different cases . The first case that I worked on was years ago with the Old Man River Dam case in Treaty 7 . They were kind enough to introduce me to what's possible working in the law and working for Indigenous people .

That's ultimately what led me into going back to university and getting a law degree and where I am now .

It felt like it gave me voice to share my opinions on land acknowledgments more openly , because I had a lot of the same trepidations I think you have Dan George reflected , which is that this is a form of tokenism . It's a concerning thing that it makes people feel like they've done something when no work has been accomplished .

I've heard many compare it to the idea of like I took your food or I took your cookie and then I'm acknowledging that I did in fact take that . There's no plan in place to address that . Would you mind sharing your perspective on land acknowledgments ? Thanks , Eric .

She's got a really funny piece on land acknowledgement and how they are not all the time . That can be really performative and that's not just a lost opportunity , i think . I think it's more than that . I think it can be a way to silence Indigenous people .

We see that a lot and for me it's part of this wider tendency with some segments of non-Indigenous society to weaponize apologies . You'll see that in the basic responses . Well , we apologize . What are you still complaining about ? You'll see that with land acknowledgments , We gave our land acknowledgment .

Now you don't have a right to voice your concerns and to make us feel uncomfortable .

It feels like I'm the bad person in the room , i'm reigning on everybody's parade and I'm wondering how you feel , because what your book does so eloquently is it points out the challenges with tokenism , with this idea of surface level action without deep-rooted action . I'm just curious is this something challenging for you to carry ?

when you're kind of the spoiler of the party , you're the one saying , hey , maybe this isn't as productive as everybody would like to think it is .

They lean in , they're laughing , they make themselves vulnerable . Then you hit them with the truth . I don't have a problem doing that . Maybe I've gotten to a certain point . I have such support of my clients and Indigenous colleagues all across the country . Maybe I just don't have a shelter or a less of a shelter These days .

I gave a talk in Ottawa last week . I think it was One of the things I felt comfortable getting up and saying is this I don't like all this talk about settlers . I don't like people getting up . This is very same thing with Atlantic and Irish Identifying as being settlers .

I don't like that by Neri , because what that does for me is it triggers this whole idea of Indigenous people as being part of wilderness , of being savages , of being nomads on the land , of being unsettled . Who are you willing to become when you're ?

because you're in separate And the settlers come in and introduce civilization , everything else , which there are problems . But I just have a problem with that binary . I don't like getting into that . I think it's important for us to be aware and I might be totally wrong , right , but I'm not shy about saying it .

I know I said it at a conference in Ottawa last week and I could see some people feeling a little bit uncomfortable because that's how they always introduce themselves . I think we should have that conversation .

But how it started was Indigenous people being open to working collaboratively , and that's how we have Métis people like yourself is that there was a willingness to collaborate and then that was betrayed . But it didn't start there , and so Indigenous people have always been open to people coming to this land and to utilizing and to working collaboratively .

But that shifted when we were betrayed and when we were undermined , that sentiment was modified . But it doesn't mean that this started from an adversarial place to begin with .

It's like someone showing up at your door knocking like this sleep on your tzolsa for the night and you're welcoming . You don't want to leave someone out there in the cold without food , so they can come in . They sleep on your tzolsa . They're there for a couple of days , three days . You come home , they're taking a shower . They made themselves comfortable .

You come home again , they're in your fridge . They're really comfortable . You come home again , they're building a house in your backyard and then they say let's sit down and talk about reconciliation . And you're like what do you mean reconciliation ? It's my home . I just invited you in to help take care of you and make you safe .

And now you're saying we need to reconcile . I don't understand that .

But they're not pulling punches And I think that's really important . I really think it's unfair when indigenous people are expected to pull punches . It's not fair . It's as the indigenous people have good reason to be fed up . I'm surprised more of my clients aren't even more , you know , overtly angry about it all the time .

So , not pulling punches in a respectful way , i don't think we have to make it about individuals . I always tell people try not to attack the person you know , attack the underlying problem , but doing it through humor dry in and so many indigenous people have been doing that for generations . I spent so much time with my clients laughing .

We sit around laughing so much . It's great . I was out in in meeting with Mohawk clients a couple of months ago and they were talking about yeah , bruce , you know , laughter is a form of medicine And I think it's important and it's one of the gifts that indigenous people give on a regular basis to non-indigenous people over over again .

Coming from my community and understanding their circumstances and then seeing the issues that people think are really important in universities are very , are vastly different .

They almost don't communicate with each other And many of the individuals as you talk about these allies actually don't know what it's like to live in one of these communities And so what they seem to prioritize is somewhat different than the real problems members want addressed .

As a council member , my community members want more opportunity , economic opportunities , more business opportunities , better housing , higher end facilities for the community All of these things that are everyday problems that they face .

And then what I see in an academic institution is somewhat more surface level , not at the root of the day-to-day problems members face , and I'm wondering how you approach that , how do you make sure that you have that balance of both worlds ?

There are a lot of fantastic people , but I also saw a lot of people putting the best of themselves into just developing their own careers . That's what they were doing , and whereas if you have those kills , can you sure have a good career , make a good living , but give back , help other people that have been disinputed for such a long time , help them .

And to do that , you need to think beyond your own career , just academics and lawyers . You need to be a listener , and so many aren't listeners . They're tellers . They're always out there telling people , telling people this , telling people that , and I encourage all the law students that I work with , the junior lawyers that I work with .

One of the things you need to work at your entire career , whether you're an academic or whether you're a lawyer , is being a good listener , because if you listen to First Nation communities . They will tell you what their priorities are .

They will tell you And you need to listen , and if you don't , it ends up being all about yourselves and not about helping them get into a better position .

I'm trying to find that balance between not discouraging them , because maybe to some people's point that's a first step . Maybe that's their first step with the idea that a lot of it is surface level and not meaningful . And there's this idea of performance based allyship that it's not substantive , that it actually feels better for the person .

I've interviewed other indigenous people who talk about individuals who've never experienced any Indian residential schools or have any family come into their community and cry at the idea of what they went through and go . Well , we actually went through it . How are you showing more emotion than we are and we're the ones who endured it ?

So there's this sense of sympathy and empathy . That's positive , but maybe it's not being used correctly . Is there any tools or how do you think about this kind of complex issue ?

How did this happen That it all became about you and your journey and indigenous people see allies turning it into that all the time . In some ways it's kind of non-indigenous people recalling and I think , indigenous people all over again through allyship . And I think the first step is to be aware of it .

So many well-intentioned non-indigenous people aren't aware of it . They aren't aware of how they're turning it into all about themselves . They aren't aware that they're expecting so much from indigenous people all the time .

I give the example every September when it comes around to National Reconciliation Day That whole week , how hard it is for indigenous people all across the country . For lots of reasons . It really triggers so much of that personal and intergenerational pain .

At the same time , a lot of indigenous people get asked the demands on their time from non-indigenous people right or just escalate , and yet without the recognition of what it means to put indigenous people in that position , what it means for them and how their non-indigenous people can turn it into all about them . I had this example last year .

I give up my time freely and I got asked to speak to a charity , a non-profit , in Vancouver . Okay , i'll come down and spend two or three hours talking about these things . I don't expect anything , but it really hurt me . When they did give me something , they gave me a cold cup of coffee . That really hurt .

It really bothered me , not personally as much , but how that was symbolic and reflected the reception that people my indigenous colleagues get all the time a cold cup of coffee , really . And how ironic it is when people are doing this because they think they're going to feel good participating in their reconciliation journey .

But that's what it actually comes down to .

So there's that argument and the fears around that . And then there's the counter argument . Well , business owners , entrepreneurs , communities can come together on this day and hear from indigenous voices , begin to understand the issues in a deeper way . But to your point now .

We're asking them on this day to present , to perform , to deliver , to drum , to entertain , to keep our attention . And so how do you think about this day ? Was it a positive step forward in your opinion , or does it come with a whole host of new challenges ?

No , it's a day to reflect . It's a day to do something . I think it's really important . It's a day to step back , thank you , understand .

So first , not all , but for so many non-indigenous people , non-indigenous people in Canada , where their wealth and privilege comes from , you know , it comes on the back of indigenous people and that , to understand , this is not historical , this is something that's going on and they are participating in every day of the year .

And to reflect about that and what does that mean for them personally and what can they do to ensure that that's not perpetuated into the future .

I'm just wondering , from your perspective , do you think it is okay that some people aren't Like ? I often give people like maybe it's an off the hook , but that everybody has an issue that they're going to be passionate about ?

Some it's what's going on in Ukraine , some it's what's going on with the environment , some it's what's going on with the Uyghurs in China .

So people are going to have an array of interests that they want to dive into in a deeper way , and indigenous and reconciliation , maybe one topic that some are passionate about , but others they're just working to pay the bills with inflation . They're not going to be focused on that .

Do you take that same mindset or do you think that this is something everybody needs to learn about and understand in a deep way ?

everyone can call it out when they hear their friends and family perpetuating these racist stereotyped of indigenous people . I don't care who you are , you have a responsibility to step up . You can do it in a respectful way . You don't have to be confrontational about it , but remaining silent is not acceptable . I don't care who you are .

I think everyone has a responsibility to participate in any way they can , and that starts with being aware and that starts with speaking out . I talk about this all the time . People have a responsibility to speak out . People have a responsibility to tell the truth , learn the truth , but then , secondly , tell the truth and hold others to account .

I think we can all do that .

I've been on there a few times and I was on there talking about this so-called repudiation about a month ago and I asked my wife after did I sound cranky ? She was saying I'm a little cranky , i am cranky . That's not a repudiation . It really frustrated me One because , oh , come on , it's not the Pope saying it here on indigenous land .

It's not the same thing . It comes out as kind of a statement from the Vatican . But worse than that , the way I read that they weren't repudiating it . They were basically saying this has never been part of our Roman Catholic teachings .

We've never thought this and it's those bad colonizer governments who misinterpreted and misapplied or teachings for their own self-interest . They're the problem . I am not buying that , not at all .

That frustrates me even more because it's not someone else's problem , it's something that they were complicit in , they continue to be complicit in because they continue to benefit from the doctrine . You have dioceses all across country . They think they own indigenous land . They're redeveloping these lands and benefiting from these lands .

I don't think it sets a good example for Catholics . I don't think it sets a good example for colonizer governments around the world . I think it's important that the church sort of stepped up and said we take responsibility and this is what we're doing to make it right . We're doing something instead of pointing the finger at someone else .

I just think about how many churches , how many different popes , how many different ideas over those years that this person coming out no matter if it was exactly how you said or if it was somebody else that it's never going to be genuine because that person , that individual , had nothing to do with what happened back then .

and we're trying to catch somebody and make sure that they take responsibility for what happened . and they don't want to do that because they don't see themselves being the person who started this to begin with , so they don't want to take that ownership , but they're part of this institution that needs to take some responsibility .

So it's almost this weird trying to catch somebody to be able to take that kind of accountability .

I think it's important to take responsibility and to set an example , and the same applies to any individuals I hear from non-indigenous people sometimes well , i didn't do the colonizing Someone else centuries ago , generations ago . What are you being upset with me about it for ? And what I think they don't understand is you are benefiting from it , to begin with .

Second , you are part of a colonizing state right now , in 2023 . You are supporting it . The policies of provincial and federal governments largely are based on a moderate form of colonization , to a large extent . Is there really a difference between Justin Trudeau and John A MacDonald ? I don't think so . Justin Trudeau has his own national policy .

It's a kinder , gentler form . I'll accept that , but still , the underlying objective is to remove indigenous people from their land so non-indigenous people can exploit it , and it's not just a governmental problem . Non-indigenous people all across the country are benefiting from that . That's what they're doing .

So they really need to acknowledge it at a personal level and not simply say this isn't my responsibility , this is part of the past , this is a wrong that was done in the past . I'm not responsible . At most I'll say sorry and then I'll get on with the hard work of colonization .

The piece that really stands out to me and it's hard for me to square , is how many police officers , rcmp officers , were sending up to the North to support this economic initiative In the guise that this is going to help our economy as a whole . And what I often try and remind people is I hear that argument .

Our GDP may go up as a consequence , but the subway worker , the McDonald's worker , the average Canadian is unlikely to see any of the economic prosperity of that pipeline .

And so when we lack RCMP officers in British Columbia , in our municipalities , and we're sending them up there , paying them far more to go up there to defend infrastructure rather than Canadians , that really concerns me as a mixed message about who this government actually serves .

They do it in such a way that mining company , pipeline companies , don't need to necessarily go out and hire their own private police force where , if they were operating in other countries around the world , that's what a lot of those same companies do .

They have their own private police force to suppress indigenous resistance in Canada in a very Canadian way , institutionalized it has . Now it works through the government , through the RCMP . But it's important that non-indigenous people know this is what is happening , this is what happens .

Does this fit with your idea of what Canada stands for when they see these militarized RCMP arresting indigenous land defenders , unarmed indigenous land defenders usually women , usually arresting these beautiful , powerful indigenous women that are doing what their mothers and grandmothers and great-grandmothers did stand up for the land .

They're being arrested by the RCMP on behalf of the state that supports resource extraction companies . That's the reality . I think people don't understand this Now . If they know it , then step back and think is this what you think Canada's about ? Is this where we should be going and have that conversation ?

One is that indigenous communities were never intended to scale upwards . They were never meant to serve 35 million people .

Looking at the western system , you have tools like innocence until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt , the idea that a person can be arrested , charged and go to a courthouse and not know the judge , the probation officer , the crown , the defense lawyer , and still , in many cases , have a fair trial .

I'm just curious from your perspective , is it challenging to be a proud Canadian ? Are you a proud Canadian ? How do you think about that ?

We get caught up with all the rhetoric , understanding that there's a disconnect there and that it's often used then to silence indigenous people . We often see this in the context of the rule of law . Canadian courts will come down hard on indigenous land offenders on the principle that we have to respect the rule of law .

It's weaponized against indigenous people , whereas you would think , oh well , that sounds reasonable . We all want to respect the rule of law . Until you start to question it more . You go wait a minute . Why aren't Canadian governments respecting their own laws ? This is what I see , I hear from my clients all across the country .

I think the number one thing that I'll hear is my clients will say why don't the non-indigenous people respect their own laws ? Instead , they'll disregard them . We'll see it in the situations of land offenders , indigenous people standing up to defend their title lands .

That is actually an expression of Aboriginal title , showing that you can exclude others from your land . That's what comes with title is the right to exclude them from their land , yet that'll be disregarded .

So many non-indigenous Canadians will ignore that and then will try to arrest indigenous people by saying wait a minute , you're offside because you're not respecting the rule of law . That one , for me , is a pretty hard pill to swallow .

Some people are saying it and they aren't it And it brings to mind for me this question about people who are connected to my culture in a deeper way than I am . They're connected to the traditions , the language , the practices , the hunting , but may not have a status card .

There's this complex relationship , i would say , between what it means to be Indigenous legally and in reality . So there are many practices that are Indigenous , that are somewhat unique to that community , and somebody could become an expert in it , but not have a status card or a MAP card or any credentials around that .

Yet , in my opinion , are Indigenous by cultural practice , by faith , by the religious approach to treating those with respect . And then there's the status cards blood quantum measurements , who's your parents ? And that approach has always troubled Indigenous communities , because somebody else is deciding who it is who's Indigenous .

And I'm just curious as to what your thoughts are on what it means to be Indigenous in . Canada .

It's so regrettable seeing what's happened in the last few years around pretentions and the violence they do to Indigenous people .

I had a conversation with a student of mine at UBC a few weeks ago and just how difficult it had been because of these kinds of accusations coming out And you get so many Indigenous people have been stolen away from their families , from their roots , and trying to find their way back in a meaningful , respectful way , whether they're sixteenths cooper , there's so

many ways that Indigenous people , through colonization , have been disconnected from who they are And they're trying to find their way back again . And what , unfortunately ? I think the real , one of the real significant , violent acts of pretentions is that then they , they , they sold these seeds of doubt around Indigenous people .

That's more vulnerable to begin with And they get lateral violence against them . I think that is . It's just so regrettable to see that happening And then to see Indigenous people relying on colonizer categories to discriminate against other Indigenous people .

I see it all the time around status cards And I understand why so many people hang on to that status card because it is comforting , it does give you that security by that , the same time when it ends up being weaponized against other Indigenous people . You don't have a status card .

Therefore , we're we're not sure , maybe you're a pretend and I talk to people about . Wait a minute , don't you have cousins , nephews , nieces don't have status cards ? Oh , yeah , yeah , right , and you do realize the sexist and racist basis of those status cards , right ? or I'll talk to them about what about six ones and six th-thunes ?

Because under the Indian Act , right , you can be a six , two , under the Indian Act , you're hanging on by your fingernail . All depending who you marry , your children might not be entitled to be registered , and just how important it is to be aware of it and not to allow this pretendian cancer undermine those relationships .

And then , a second point on this there and that I think about , is that it's important that non-Indigenous people can naturalize people themselves . You know , i hear the story all the time . People talk about Gray Owl , who is , though that infamous example , early 20th century , real .

Pretend so , yeah , and they'll give examples whole , that person's just another Gray Owl . Well , i've talked to indigenous people that have said , wait a minute , we naturalized him , but we exercised our own laws .

We brought him in , we taught him what it was to be an indigenous person There's a perspective on that to say that , wait a minute , whether he had a status quo or not , or he , okay , maybe he did act like he was from somewhere else , but from our perspective , what we were doing was naturalizing him into the community .

And don't undermine that , don't disempower us to say that we don't have the ability to do it .

Past people I've interviewed have had glowing recommendations of her character and the quality of person she is . How do you think about that issue ?

This has caused huge harm , not just Mary Ellen , others , but she's an example of the harm that it's caused individuals , the positions that have been denied other indigenous people , indigenous women , for someone that maybe you shouldn't have been stepping into those shoes , you shouldn't have been representing yourself in that way . I know it's a difficult one .

It's a difficult one for a lot of people that have supported Mary Ellen because , like you say , they know that she was doing things , at least from their perspective , for the right reasons , really , importantly , had a lot of positive attacks and that should be acknowledged .

And , like I say , there is the argument from indigenous people , which I think is important to keep in mind . We can decide who our members are . We can decide who's part of the community . Don't disempower us from that .

But at the same time , whether it was intended or not , i think it's important to recognize the harm that it's caused , the harm that it's caused indigenous people And , like I say , i had a conversation with a former student of mine a few weeks ago or she was in tears because of the harm that's been the outcome of that situation And I really think that's where

we need to look and recognize that , everyone needs to recognize that harm , and in indigenous and non-indigenous , and ensure that it's not replicated . We can't have that .

We can't have people that are so vulnerable to start with to no soul of their own , then being undermined , being displaced , being ridiculed , being questioned in such a way that's very unfair to them personally .

So when I tell people it's also available as an audio book , and don't worry , i'm not reading it , lauren is reading it . He did such a wonderful , wonderful job . So I really encourage people . If you can't find the paperback and you like an audio book , look Lauren is . I just give my thanks to him for being willing to take it on .

I feel like we covered so many complex , deep topics in such a short period of time , so I can't thank you enough for that Great . Thank you very much . So Bruce was a professor of yours . He wasn't a professor of mine , but he was pretty infamous within the school .

First , people's Law is one of the large law firms serving Indigenous communities , so I was aware of him from the beginning but didn't have the chance He has . He's an auto and every semester professor , so the times just didn't line up . But I've heard amazing things and was excited .

I tried to invite him on a year ago or a year and a half ago , and that was before we were doing these amazing Zoom interviews .