Listener note: this podcast features discussion of domestic abuse. Whilst listening, please be mindful of your own wellbeing and prioritise taking a break if you need to.
Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast where we share learning and expertise in child protection from inside and outside of the organisation. We aim to create debate, encourage reflection and share good practise on how we can all work together to keep babies, children and young people safe.
Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast. New research from domestic abuse charity For Baby's Sake has revealed that each year, almost 50,000 babies are referred to Children's Social Care in England with domestic abuse as a
factor. In this episode of the podcast, recorded in March 2025, the NSPCC's Development and Quality Manager, Paddi Vint, will be talking with For Baby's Sake CEO, Lauren Seager-Smith, about this research, domestic abuse in pregnancy, and what should be done to improve support for babies affected by domestic abuse. I'll hand over to Paddi now to introduce herself and begin the discussion.
My name is Paddi Vint. I'm the Development and Quality Manager within the NSPCC Helpline and I oversee a team of domestic abuse practice advisors. Our podcast today is looking at the theme of domestic abuse and the impact on babies and with me today is Lauren. Lauren, do you want to introduce yourself? LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Thanks Paddi. I'm Lauren LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Seager-Smith and I'm CEO of the For LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Baby's Sake Trust.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We give whole-family therapeutic LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: support to co-parents where there's LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: been experience of domestic abuse. LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We start in pregnancy up to the LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: baby's second birthday.
So the Domestic Abuse Act for England and Wales now recognises babies, children and young people as co-victims in their own right, which I think for many of us in our charities and the domestic abuse sector, we've always strongly believed in. But this groundbreaking research that For Baby's Sake has done is really highlighting the scale of those children that's been affected. What does this new research from For Baby's Sake show about how many babies in England are affected by domestic abuse?
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We really wanted to know what the LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: answer to that question was. LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And so, like all of us do in the LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: sector, first of all, we went to see LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: what was publicly available, LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: particularly in terms of government LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: data, children in need data, the LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: sorts of things that were out there.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And it was actually very hard to LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: work out how many babies were LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: directly impacted by domestic abuse LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: because they were using categories LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: like family dysfunction or it was LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: coming under LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: categories of emotional abuse or neglect. LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: It was really hard to work it out.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: So we made the decision to do a LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: freedom of information request to LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: local areas to ask how many LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: 0-2s were being referred into LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: children's services with domestic LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abuse as a factor and then how many LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: babies were being taken into care LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: with domestic abuse as a factor.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And we had a return from the LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: majority of local areas, and we can LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: come onto the kind of discrepancy in LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: the data collection, which is issue LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: in itself, but what it seemed to LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: suggest was that on average, around LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: 50,000 babies are referred into LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: children's social care every year LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: with domestic abuse as a
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: contributing factor, with around LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: 2,000 babies taken into care with LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: domestic abuses as a contributing LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: factor. But we suspect this is LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: probably quite a significant LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: underestimate, even of the number of LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: babies that are being referred in with LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: domestic abuse as a factor.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: But it gives us some idea, one as LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to the discrepancy between data LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: recording in different areas, but LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: the scale of the issue that we're LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: all dealing with. Interesting you say that because the NSPCC Helpline receives around 200 contacts a day from members of the public and domestic abuse is around the fourth highest reason that people contact us.
So your figures don't surprise me, but as you say, potentially is the tip of the iceberg. Certainly from my experience, very often recognition that somebody's even in an abusive relationship can take a very long time to recognise and acknowledge, particularly given coercive control being played out in a relationship. LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Yeah, absolutely.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And another piece of data that we LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: collected: last year we did a LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: freedom of information to police LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: forces around the numbers of 0-2s LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: present for police call-outs for LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: domestic abuse.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And that came back with the police LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: forces that returned to us, which I LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: think were 15 police forces, said LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that babies were present in about LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: 13% of call-out, which was about LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: 180,000 babies a year if you work
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: it out. So a lot more babies were LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: present at police call-outs — and LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: again, that data won't have been fully LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: accurate — compared to the number LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: being referred into children's LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: social care, which is a worry in and LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: of itself around what's happening LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: there. So I think you're absolutely
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: right, Paddi. We know one in five LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: children experience domestic abuse LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: by the time they're 18 and 30% LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: begins in pregnancy. Absolutely. But it's brilliant to be able to have that information and that up to date research to be able to reference. In the research it was identified that children were having this children's services intervention and some children and babies were being taken into care.
Why do you think so many babies are taken into care? Is it the additional vulnerabilities that a baby brings to a situation? LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Yeah, and Paddi, you'll know well LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that social care don't readily take LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: babies or any children into care. LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And that's important for people to LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: understand — that it will have meant LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that this is a critical incident
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: here. It's because babies are, of LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: course, extremely vulnerable and we LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: know can be at high risk of LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: homicide, and particularly where LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: there's been experience of domestic LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abuse or where there is domestic LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abuse. So those babies are at a LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: point of real vulnerability.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: But we would say that it's because LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: there should have been intervention LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: in those families' lives a lot LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: earlier and for a lot longer to LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: prevent that ever happening.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Sometimes we work with parents who've LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: had multiple previous children LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: removed and this is the first baby LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: they've ever been able to keep in LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: their care and so very often it's a LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: result of a failure of the system LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to support those families over a LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: longer period of time, which then LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: results in that baby having to go
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: into care. Now you've got research findings, what do you think we need to see in practice?
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Well, I think the thing that it's really LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: drawn out for us — and we know this LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: because this is the reason for the LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: For Baby's Sake Trust and the work LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that we do and the work that we've developed — LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: is this significant impact of LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: domestic abuse in pregnancy.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And I think what we would like to be LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: able to do is help to explore that LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: even more. What's happening during LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that period of time within LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: relationships that's leading to this LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: epidemic of abuse, which is LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: what it is. If 30% of it begins in LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that time, we're not talking about a LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: small number of families here.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And so really, really being able to LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: understand what are the pressures on LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: families at that point and what does LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that look like? LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And there's lots of things that we could
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: talk around around that space. One LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: of the things we're looking at at the LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: moment is how much support is there LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: for dads during that period of time? LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: What does that look like?
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We've been involved with some work LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: with an NHS trust looking at LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: emotional health screening for dads LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: during the perinatal period, which LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: has helped to draw out domestic LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abuse during that period of time and LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: what's happening for dads.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: But we know it's such a high-risk LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: time, but it's also an opportunity, LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: because that's time when services LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: are actively engaging with women. And I think that sometimes can lead on to that sense of escalation, because there are services involved it can have a twofold [effect]: it can either increase the risk and increase the likelihood of isolation, but it also opens the door to the potential to have services
in place. When you're pregnant or just after birth, you'd hope that there'd be an increase of those professional services from midwives and doctors and health visitors. How do you think support services for pregnant families and babies experiencing domestic abuse could be improved? That's probably a million dollar question. LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: No, it's a brilliant question and it LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: would be good to hear your thoughts
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: on that as well, Paddi. I think from LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: our perspective, we've got to have LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: eyes-on. I'm really worried. LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: I understand why the NHS wants to LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: move more towards digital, but if we LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: haven't got health visitors going LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: out into the community, seeing LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: parents, seeing babies, that's the
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: risk. So we'd like to see investment LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: in health visitors, support for LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: health visitors. We'd like to see LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: funding for IDVAs [Independent Domestic Violence Advocates] in LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: hospitals, so they're out there LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: with eyes on mums and babies, LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: looking at what's happening with LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: dynamics within relationships.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We've got to invest in people who LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: are out there supporting families. LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: It's hugely important. LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And then we need to see training for LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: midwives. We haven't got statutory LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: rollout of training for midwives and LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: health visitors.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We can all do our bit as different LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: agencies to try and offer what we LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: can, but we need to see that LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: uniformly delivered across the whole LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: sector so that people are properly LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: supported to engage with parents. LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And we'd like to see much more LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: engagement with dads in this space LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: as well.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: But Paddi, what would you say? No, I think you're absolutely right. Nothing can replace that face-to-face contact in terms of those early identifications. I know there's been some studies done looking at barriers to victims making those disclosures in health settings. And certainly on occasions, even a partner's physical presence can be a factor, or somebody who is potentially acting as a translator, if English is your second language, and the barriers that that may
have. Just being able to have that opportunity to speak to somebody, to be asked the question, to allow you to answer is really, really important. Certainly I've been in some clinics where women leave potential samples in the bathroom with notes so that they can actually have that picked up by a professional and a safe space is created to be able to speak to that woman themselves on their own. But obviously that's something that we would love to be able to see.
Lauren, you touched on there about the need for support, in particular for men, to be improved. And like many forms of abuse, that early recognition and intervention is key. But then equally, it's really important to have those services in place to address it. How do you think we could better support men? LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: So as a charity, we take a LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: trauma-informed approach to domestic
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abuse. We work with co-parents where LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: there's a pregnancy and experience LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: of domestic abuse. We have over 10 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: years experience of working with LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: parents who use abusive behaviours, LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and on the whole that's the dad, but LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: not always.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And what we've learnt through that LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: 10 years is a real understanding of LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: the demographics of our families as LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: well, and what's happened within those LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: lives. A trauma-informed approach LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: means really understanding what's LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: brought people to this place and what LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: are their histories.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: What we find with our parents is LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that— in the last cohort which we've LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: just looked at, in the last quarter, LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: 70% of our parents had five or more LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: adverse childhood experiences. LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: So we're talking about experience of LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: domestic abuse at hands of fathers, LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: but 30% was at the hands of mothers.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We're talking about sexual abuse, LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: emotional abuse, neglect, alcohol LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abuse within the home. LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We're very often working with very LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: young parents as well. LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Commonly, our parents are between LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: the age of 16 to 25 as well, which LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: is often not understood.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: In the current cohort that we're LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: working with, 13% were care LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: experienced, but that can be as high LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: as 25% in some areas. LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Mental ill health: 70% of our LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: parents are struggling with mental LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: ill health. Very high levels of LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: substance misuse. LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Very high level of housing needs.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And so it's understanding what's LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: going on for these families. LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And I would say with men, there's a LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: real lack of recognition of what LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: these men have experienced as boys LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and as children.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Yes, that begins in schools and it LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: begins with education, but it also LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: begins with schools recognising the LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: number of boys and girls that are LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: living with domestic abuse at home.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: How much are we recognising what LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: children are living with at home and LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: have grown up with at home, and the LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: influence of what they're seeing at LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: home. We know the internet has a LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: massive influence, but your primary LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: influence is your parents and what LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: you grew up with and how much are we
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: really recognising that. So in our LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: work, we're really exploring that LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: with our dads and our mums.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And for our parents, having a baby LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: is a real motivator for change LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: because they often say this was the LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: first baby in our whole generations LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: of families to have a good LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: upbringing, to have a good life and LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to have a chance of living without LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: the shadow of abuse.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And so for us, you've really got to LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: look at the root causes of abusive LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: behaviour and that takes time. LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: That takes deep work with families. And as you say there, it's not just within
one. There's housing issues, substance issues, school issues, and I think that's why it's so important that organisations can come together to be able to support; because ultimately, if there is domestic abuse in a relationship and that relationship doesn't continue, they're still going to be fathers. They're still gonna be mothers. So it's so important that they have the skills and the tools and the support there to be able to be as best a father or a mother as they can be.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Yeah, that's right. And I think, you LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: know, the other area of our work is LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: really supporting attachment and LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: attunement to the baby with both mum LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and dad, because that's so important LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: for keeping that baby safe and has LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: such a significant impact.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: So we work both within the LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: relationship and what's been happening LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: there, but also around that LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: attachment and attunment; really LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: looking at what does your baby need, LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: recognising that domestic abuse LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: impacts babies in the womb. LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Mum's cortisol levels are impacting LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that baby right from the get-go.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: So really helping parents to LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: understand that. And it's really LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: important to say, 50% of our parents LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: safely separate during their time LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: with us as well. So we're not here LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to keep families together at the LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: detriment of anyone's safety. LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: It's really important to stress that.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: But it touches on what you said, LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Paddi, that very often, even if that LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: couple separate, they go on to have LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: other relationships, they go onto LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: have other children. And I'm sure LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: you've seen that in your work that LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: we can look at multiple partners LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: being impacted by one person. Absolutely.
Many of the women who contact our helpline will often identify that their abuse started or escalated when they became pregnant. As you mentioned there, you know, 30% of domestic abuse starting in pregnancy, and then that increasing to 40% by the time the child's two [years old]. And sadly, we know it's a high risk time. You know, I'd be interested to know why you think domestic abuse is so key in pregnancy. What is it about that [time], that's driving that forward?
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Paddi, I wish we had the answer to LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that. I think this is an area that's LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: really under-researched — really LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: understanding what's going on. LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: I read a statistic recently as well, LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: which is that one in five of any LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: couples separate by the time the LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: baby's 12 months old.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: So for everyone, this is LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: a really high risk time. LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Having had kids myself, I could LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: guess at what some of the reasons LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: might be. I mean hormones, right? LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Mass sleep deprivation in both LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: partners. LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Struggling for money. LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: The impact of not being in work, LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: what that can do for families.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: It brings up an awful lot of stuff LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: about your own childhood when you LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: have a baby. LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: I think probably something around— LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: well certainly around mental health LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: in both mums and dads. LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And I think we've only just really LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: started to appreciate what's LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: happening to mums and the risk of
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: postnatal depression. I don't think LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: we've even begin to go there enough LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: with dads yet, but we're starting to LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: see the research around that and LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: around what's happening there. And I LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: also think, what we've seen with LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: some of our fathers is an intense LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: fear of rejection at that point.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: That goes back to those childhood LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: experiences of abuse around suddenly LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: "I may lose this person" or "I'm not LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: number one anymore". LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: That's not justifying that by any means, but it can bring up some really big LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: emotions.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We know that one of the ways that LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: you can really importantly work with LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: people using abusive behaviours is LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to support emotional regulation, so LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: a lot of our work is around that: is LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: around helping parents be able to LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: recognise their emotions and how LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: they're impacting others and how you LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: manage those emotions.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: But big stuff comes up for everybody LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: when they have a baby and they're LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: supporting the baby. And I think as well, it also increases the difficulty, potentially, for a person to leave an abusive situation. You know, all of a sudden, it's not just them anymore. It's them and their child and the ability to be able to potentially leave that situation safely.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Yeah, and that's certainly true in the demographics LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: of families that we support as well. LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And I think for all mums — and it's LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: predominantly mums who are experiencing LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: domestic abuse in pregnancy — LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: there's a real vulnerability at that LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: time as well. LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Like you said, it's not easy to just LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: get up and leave.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: You're going to be financially dependent, LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: probably, for a period of time as LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: well. All of those things make that LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: really, really challenging. LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: There's also a huge fear that your LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: baby's going to get taken away, so LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that if you tell someone and you LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: don't feel able to leave, that your
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: baby will get taken away. And that's LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: something that we deal with a lot, LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: supporting around the shame and LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: stigma. We did research with 2,000 LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: parents during the pandemic and what LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: came out of that was again, LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: staggeringly high numbers of parents LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: saying that they'd experienced LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: domestic abuse. I think it was about
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: 40%. Many of them said that started LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: in pregnancy, but again around 40% LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: said they didn't disclose it to anybody LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and the primary reason they didn't LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: disclose was shame. LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Gosh, how do we get around that?
It's a factor we see on the Helpline; that victims often... their fear of feeling that they're not going to be believed, that they don't necessarily want to speak up or they're maybe saying things like well I've not been physically hit so therefore all of a sudden they feel it as a lesser form of abuse, which
it absolutely isn't. I think language is so important and it's great to see things like CAFCASS' domestic abuse practisc policy moving away from terms like 'alleged' when talking about abuse, because language can be so damaging and stigmatising. What impact do you think the use of inaccurate language when discussing domestic abuse has on victims?
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: I think it's really important to LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: explore what's leading to the sense LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: of shame and stigma around domestic LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abuse. In fact we were even talking LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: in the team this week about the word LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: 'domestic' and some of the LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: connotations that that has.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We were saying it kind of makes you LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: think, doesn't it, the 1950s and LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: aprons and people with frying pans, LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and even that in itself isn't
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: necessarily helpful. It's about LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: being able to use language LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that doesn't underplay the LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: seriousness of what's happening, but LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: also means that people feel like LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: this is accessible and this is LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: something that they understand may LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: be happening to them.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We developed the parental LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: relationship abuse spectrum to help LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: people understand the difference LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: between conflict and domestic abuse LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and how those things impact your LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: baby because people need support LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to see that this is a wide spectrum LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: of behaviours.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We're not just talking about things LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that people associate particularly LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: with physical abuse, but we're LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: talking about, like you said, the LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: huge instances of coercive control. Absolutely. And the impact, as you said earlier, on the baby and the stress that that can cause. LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Yeah, that that has.
Given the prevalence of domestic abuse, the likelihood is that professionals will be coming across potential victims of abuse on a daily basis. What do you think professionals need to know about domestic abuse and how to support pregnant families and babies affected by it?
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Everybody should do training in domestic LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abuse to understand all the LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: different things that we're talking about, LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: the different ways domestic abuse LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: can manifest, the signs and symptoms LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to look out for when you're working LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: with people and where you can LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: signpost to support and all of that.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: So that's really important.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: But I also think it's important to LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: be really aware of the heightened LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: risk within pregnancy and to really LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: think about how you within your LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: services can create much more LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: accessibility and opportunities for LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: families to be able to open up to LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: you and to share concerns with you LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and think about what that might look
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: like. Being supported to open up LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: those conversations as well and to LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: hold those conversations. LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Again, we've got on the website — LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and I'm sure NSPCC has similar — LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: resources around domestic abuse LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: handbooks and guides and FAQs and LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: different organisations where you LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: can signpost to and support.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: I think it's just really important LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: as workplaces that we really equip LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: ourselves with domestic abuse LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: policies for all our employers, so LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that all of us get a lot more LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: confident in talking about this, LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: recognising this, because that will LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: help to remove that shame and
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: stigma. But we also know that — and LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: this came from Safe Lives — that a LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: high percentage of families also LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: seek support for the person using LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abusive behaviours, and it's very LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: hard to get that support. LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And that's a real challenge. LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: It's a real challenge because where LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: do you turn?
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: You know, if you genuinely want to LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: change, where do you get that help? LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And that's tough out there at the LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: moment. Absolutely. There definitely seems to be a lack of direct services available to be able to put those supports in place. Certainly, I think there's a lot, as you said, about being comfortable with the uncomfortable; to be able to ask the
question. Because unless we ask the question, we're not going to be able to get a response to be able to then put in an understanding of specialist services or safety planning that can be offered, or referral pathways into other organisations. So creating that really safe, non-judgmental environment for me is key to be allowing us to start asking those questions. And I think having a real understanding of the barriers to reporting abuse also supports us in addressing the issues as well.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: I think so, and I think, you LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: touching on the non-judgmental LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: approach is so important; LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: because from a trauma-informed LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: perspective as well, it's very much LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: about how do you empower people LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: within their own lives and give them LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that sense of agency as well?
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Because I think people are really LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: scared of losing control, so that if LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: I report this, suddenly everything's LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: going to happen and it's all going to LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: be out of my control. It's helping LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: people to understand, right, let's LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: work together to put a safety plan
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: in place. Let's really think about LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: what you need at this time to keep LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: you and your baby safe. And it's LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: being able to do that and support LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that, because that's what people are LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: scared of. They're scared that LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: they're not going to have control.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And, you know, to some degree, if LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: there's a baby or a child at risk, LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: then agencies need to take action to LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: protect that baby and that child and
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to protect that parent. But it's LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: helping people understand the LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: reasons for that and what that means LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and how they'll do that, but that LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: help is there for them and people LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: aren't here to separate mothers from LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: their babies.
No, thankfully — that thought process is so clear in people's mind and that fear is so real, but actually agencies are a long way from doing that. But I think that also stops, to a certain level as well, professionals potentially raising a concern because they're worried that it might not be right. So they're not really sure. Could this be, is it not? Should I have concerns here? What are the signs? What are the symptoms? Should I be worried?
And I think sometimes, you know, on the Helpline as well, we are more than happy to talk to a professional or a member of the public who has those inklings or concerns, to give them an opportunity to talk through and support them to be an ally to that family while they're going through this stage.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Yeah and I think something else that LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: definitely comes up in our work as LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: well, and I know has come up in LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: previous contact we've had with LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Pause — and those listeners that LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: don't know Pause, they give support LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to mothers who've had babies removed LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: — is for a number of the parents LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that we work with, they have had
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: this intergenerational cycles of LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abuse within their families. Many of LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: them have grown up with domestic LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: abuse and to some degree that abuse LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: has been quite normalised in their
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: lives. They don't necessarily LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: recognise that what they're in is LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: anything different than what LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: everyone else is living and LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: experiencing.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And so it's being able to recognise LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that as well, which means when LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: you've got resources like family LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: hubs or whatever it is we have out LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: there, we've got to get a lot better LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: at being really upfront about this.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: We shouldn't only be talking about LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: domestic abuse once there's a crisis LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: or once we think something's happened. LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: These conversations should be LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: mainstreamed. Perhaps it's not LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: always using the language of
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: domestic abuse either. Maybe using LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: different language which feels less LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: scary, or helps people to really LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: think about what's safe for a family LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and safe within a family LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: environment, can help to normalise LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: these discussions.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: And then you can work with families LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to understand what is and isn't LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: okay; because we might think that LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: that's obvious, but it's always LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: obvious. Absolutely, certainly contacts that we've received... as you say, growing up in an environment where this has always been the norm, there becomes a level of, well, that's just what happens.
And particularly within coercive control, where there's maybe been some threats and intimidation and emotional abuse, it's not always as easily recognised for people [that] that's not an acceptable relationship. Very often we have to almost strip it back and look at "what is a healthy relationship" rather than constantly looking at "what's an unhealthy relationship".
Because I think really only when you look at what a healthy relationships is, does it almost help you identify areas that aren't healthy or that are potentially abusive. LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Oh, I love that Paddi, I love that LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: emphasis on healthy relationships, LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: because it's starting with a LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: positive rather than a negative.
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: It's about mainstreaming LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: conversations about what healthy LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: looks like all the time. LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: I think that goes back to what we LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: were saying about schools, about LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: mainstreaming this in schools. LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: It's not just about educating, it's LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: about living healthy relationships
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: with kids. It's about modelling LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: healthy relationships so that kids LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: can see in the way you treat them, LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: the way you make them feel, feels LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: different to something they might be LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: experiencing at home, which then LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: creates safety and trust, which then LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: means those children are able to
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: open up to you. So I think all of us LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: have got a responsibility to be able LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: to model and teach and share what LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: healthy relationships look like and
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: feel like. And I think that could go LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: some way to helping to reduce that LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: shame and stigma to then what it LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: looks like to talk about when things don't LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: feel right or don't feel healthy. The key thing for people is to know that there's help and support available. That's what we want to be able to share with people; that they can pick up the phone, they can reach out to particularly the NSPCC
Helpline. They can contact us on 0808 800 5000, or they can drop us an email at help@nspcc.org.uk, where we'd be more than happy to support mums, dads, professionals with any of their concerns in regards to this subject or any child protection subject. Lauren, would you be happy to share for listeners how they can reach out to For Baby's Sake?
LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: Yeah, if you visit forbabysaketrust.org.uk, LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: we're available in a number of LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: different areas in terms of support LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: and there's also lots of resources LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: on our website and signposting for LAUREN SEAGER-SMITH: help. Thank you so much, Lauren, for joining me today and talking about this subject. And thank you everybody for listening. All the best.
Thanks for listening to this NSPCC learning Podcast. At the time of recording, this episode's content was up to date, but the world of safeguarding and child protection is ever-changing. So, if you're looking for the most current safeguarding and child-protection training, information, or resources, please visit our website for professionals at nspcc.org.uk/learning.