30: Decoding Resilience: A Deep Dive with Chris Marshall

I think you're really going to enjoy this episode . Look for us on Apple Podcasts , subscribe and , if you like the podcast , please leave a review . Thanks , hi , chris . I'm so excited to be talking to you today .

I know this sounds really nerdy it's probably the most nerdy superpower you've heard on the show but if you could do that , people would instantly see , oh my word , like all of these different pathways are lighting up and these chemicals are coming through .

As you can see , I'm quite passionate about this and it would just allow people to go oh my word , it's not me , it's my wiring , or with my brain doing this , and I think that's going to probably become evident where our conversation goes why I think that would be such a superpower to be able to either have or give people .

This is just a wire in my brain creating this thought , because then that allows us to be far more compassionate , far more self-reflective , rather than oh , I'm a terrible person .

So I look at how the world's changing , what's going on , what's driving change , and that was really the starting point behind the book I published last year called Decoding Change .

Then the other camp I sit in is I'm a behavioral scientist and obsessed with things like performance , psychology and neuroscience and how we think , how we construct our decisions , how we construct our thoughts . For me , what's been interesting about the last kind of 10 years or so is those two camps have come together .

For me , in that how the world's changing , it's just as important to understand how we think .

You can't , as far as I'm concerned , understand how the world is unfolding , or how it might unfold , without understanding how we react to it , and so that's really kind of where I have this kind of nickname , the uncertainty scientist , and that's really where a lot of my most fascinating work comes in .

I probably wear our conversation or go to bed is kind of that thought piece about what uncertainty does and why it's so challenging to us as a human .

So what do you think about resilience and that concept and how does that intersect with your work ?

You don't have to believe this , but from all the work I've been looking at , I mean , first of all , we like to believe that the world just steadily progresses , it steadily changes Every day . We just chip away and it just changes very slightly . That's actually not the case at all . It does . But then we go through these periods of rapid change .

So paradigm shifts and these paradigm shifts they can come from technology so we could throw in disruptive technologies like AI , machine learning but they could also come from a global order change . They could come from a change in demographics , they could come from a changing natural environment .

And what's really interesting today is we have all of these different trends and mega trends all on the move and they are all running to the seeming timeframe which says in the next couple of decades we're gonna see change in every single area .

We can actually add to that , we're seeing a change in cultural philosophy , which is one of the biggest changes that we have ever seen in history , when the culture and its underpinning values and beliefs suddenly move . So that's kind of the backdrop . That was kind of .

Again , the point of writing the book Decoding Change was to help people see this change , because it's something that , bizarrely , we're not taught how the world changes , even though it's probably one of the most fundamental things we need to know , particularly when we're at that point of massive change .

And the reason that resilience now comes into that is resiliency . I mean firstly , let's put a definition around it , because everybody has a slightly different definition .

And so we take lots of shortcuts , so we oversimplify , we could say , in our thinking . We can't take in every single bit of data which is thrown at us . We have to be selective . A really easy example is if you're going out shopping for a new mobile phone , you don't actually look at all the specs , you look at enough of them to go .

Oh well , that's all right for me , that's meet most of the criteria . That's essentially simplifying the decision . Problem we then run with that . And this is where we get into some real kind of maladaptive processes and some real biased thinking is that we run with that simplification .

Now , in a rapidly changing world , that oversimplification can run us down some very interesting paths , Because we believe one thing and actually reality is something completely different . And so what we're really talking about is a process our brain is doing to help us cope in the world .

But the modern world , when we start turning up that dial of change , of turbulence , of uncertainty , all of a sudden we're in this environment where our brain is starting to really feel drained . And if you ask most people Like do they feel like the world's changing ?

In fact I'm quite mean , like , if you ever end up in an audience when I'm speaking , I'll typically ask these questions You'll be tipped off and so will the audience now , which probably ruins my stage effect . But I typically ask people , put your hand up if you feel like the world's changing .

Everybody shoots their hands up , like there's virtually nobody left who's like no , I don't think so . And then you go okay , well , here's a tougher question . Can you pinpoint where change is coming from ?

And like you just see everybody's hand come down and like there's one or two really brave people Right , the point is that change is coming from every direction and we are just in this kind of this fog , this muddy place of like oh my word , what does this mean ? And so when we come back to that kind of point of resilience .

Resilience in this scenario , when we're looking kind of about the uncertainty around us , is being able to step back and not get caught up . That's where resiliency comes in . For me , it's all too easy to be . We are taught to be hyper specialists .

What I mean by that is , from the moment we're born , we're almost funneled into this like hyper specialization through our schooling , through our college , through our work , through our experiences , and we end up knowing loads and loads about three millimeters of life , and I'm very , very thankful about the rest .

But when the world's changing at this pace , actually what we need to do is we need to stand back , we need to become generalists , and that , I believe , is also linked with resiliency in fast paced environments is being able to step back from the chaos , from the noise , and to actually get some calmness and clarity to thought , which are actually incredible moments .

I'm sure you've had them where you just kind of have those moments where you're just like , oh , I can think , which becomes rarer and rarer the faster the environment you are in . So for me

, resiliency is about clarity of thought and really high decision making , really high quality decision making .

On to the layperson , yes , and I think the layperson kind of runs around and this idea of resiliency is like bad things happen to me and I don't move . That seems to be the common perception , which is , I don't believe , right , that's just called emotional suppression , right , which I don't think is healthy .

We're meant to experience the full range of emotions , but where kind of a lot of my work looks at is how well can you bring yourself back down from a stress debt ?

But essentially , when we become overwhelmed , when we start coming that kind of , let's talk about burnout , let's talk about that kind of overload cognitive overload of just too much data , too much stuff on our plate , not enough rest .

Lifestyle factors play into this , you know , in terms of both metabolic stress , physical stress , emotional stress is probably the number one and what's happening is our brains are becoming they're basically being soaked in cortisol and other stress hormones and what we actually find at those moments is that you become more emotional , our emotions are more extreme , our

decisions are more extreme , we become more defensive , we become more rigid , we become less inventive , we become less cooperative with others All of these different things which we kind of pin down as saying these are the best human qualities , right ?

And so when we actually look at emotional suppression , actually what we find is it doesn't tend to be the same as emotional fluency .

So emotional fluency just being able to move through these different states , from stress through to calm emotional suppression tends to lead to a lot of kind of self critique and anxiety which actually builds on the stress , so there can be negative feedback loops in it , right ?

So , yeah , resiliency for me is that ability to step back , and that's a cognitive process , that's a conscious process . Saying this is too much . I'm aware of what's happening inside me . Right , I'm gonna pull back from it and I'm just gonna pause . And I don't think our modern world teaches that enough .

And I was able to do that thanks to the prompt from outside and then was able to think clearly about what was happening , whereas just moments before I was utterly overwhelmed and had no idea what my next step was . So I appreciate hearing some of the science behind that too and kind of what's going on ?

You're kind of at max , you turn the dial all the way up and it's like oh my word , their will's about to end . And to your brain and your body , that's exactly how it's responding the world is about to end , it's in survival mode . Okay , so these stress responses we have are so important . They're not something we should get rid of .

They are very , very carefully honed processes which allow us to get out of situations . The issue in our modern world is that we have lots of triggers which aren't actually life threatening .

So if you were able to dive into your brain at that moment when you were kind of like , oh my word , this is way too much , I don't know what's happening , I don't know what's going on anymore , Likely what you would have seen is one region of the brain which we know is very important for this kind of rational processing , rational thought .

The prefrontal cortex is actually cortisol . The stress hormone actually starts to sever the connection and what you find is the amygdala really kind of is in control here , with massive negative emotions . It is biased towards being pessimistic because tens of thousands of years ago that kept us alive , it paid for us to be .

Oh well , if I'm stressed out , it's better to be negative than them optimistic , and so actually that's the right . Sometimes you need that external voice just to go . Just take a minute .

But these are natural responses of the brain to deal with what it sees as an emergency . And , chris , I want to , I want to kind of broaden the discussion , because we have been talking about our brains and what's happening neurologically in this moment and the importance of resilience .

From my perspective , to be resilient as I'm dealing with things Do you see a role of our systems and institutions and the organizations that we're part of in supporting that resiliency , in themselves being resilient , so that they're not thwarting us as we're trying to express our own individual resiliency ?

Kind of one of the trends I see going on putting on my kind of futurist hat for a minute is I believe we come through this period which I kind of term the age of measurement .

Since the 1970s when we invented this tiny little thing called the semiconductor which powers nearly everything that we call life now we've really just got really really good at measuring stuff . That's been the secret and storing it and making these big databases and everything else .

And now what's happening , certainly in the last 10 , 15 years , is we're starting to use that data and bring awareness , which is very different . Awareness is very different to data collection . So I doubt the next era that we're moving into , or already in , I'd say , as the age of awareness .

And the age of awareness isn't just about our corporations have a more sustainable outlook or they want to have less impact on the natural environment . It's not just about well , where do you buy your clothes and are they carbon free or are they , you know kind of whatever . How many harem isle have they done ? Awareness is about wellness as well .

This is where we see things turning , and so I think corporations in the future I'm going to turn this around to productivity and innovation , but I think where corporations really have a role is they're starting to see this awareness is filtering through into corporations that when their employees and staff are at their best , the work they do is incredible , and when

they're not , it not only costs them in days off , days , sick , burnout , all these different things , but there's also massive under production .

And I think COVID probably helped this move along , because we were kind of stuck in this old paradigm in many businesses where it was like well , if you work for us , you turn up at nine o'clock and you leave at 5pm , which is just a hangover from the industrial revolution .

I mean , it's literally those are the daylights and we could see you come in and pull a lever in like 1700 . We don't need to do that anymore , we have lights . And COVID kind of shook that up and went well , you can work from home . And all of a sudden , if you're working from home , well , what , why do these hours now fix ?

And then you start getting into kind of like well , what are the hours that work best for me and when am I most productive ? But I think , from the point of view of resiliency and corporations , I'd say that , hopefully , what we're moving to is beyond resiliency . Resiliency , to me is coping , and I think there's something beyond that . It's called flourishing .

And I mean , obviously , resiliency is still very , very important when we come to stressors , but in the everyday , I think that's what we should be aiming for is flourishing rather than just coping . I think most people are just coping right now , and where corporations are gonna get smart to this very smart is they're gonna start seeing .

Okay , let me ask you a question when do you have your best thoughts ? Are they in the office , are they out walking , are they in the shower and are they on the beach ? Are they talking with friends ? Normally , again , if I'm really cruel in the middle of a talk nobody puts their hand up to the office , unless they're sat next to the boss .

Actually , right , yeah . But everybody then puts their hand up as soon as you start saying oh yeah , it's for me it's out running or for me it's showering , for me it's out for a walk with the dog or it's wherever . It's got nothing to do with the situation , it's got nothing to do with the activity .

It's got to do with what we were talking about before , with our brain state . We're in the opposite place of stress . We're now in joy or calm , and when you're in joy or calm , you have access to everything in your brain . Everything works smoothly . You can be cooperative , you can be empathetic .

This is where you get abstract thought , this is where you get breakthroughs , and it's such a magical place from a decision-making point of view that corporations are , I believe , getting smart to this . That's why

we see them playing around with working hours , with days off , with making offices more entertaining .

I mean , so far , all they've done is add colors and slides to open plan offices , which probably isn't very great , but they try it , and so resiliency , I think , is incorporated into that , because they start to understand that when they can actually serve their employees best , they themselves benefit .

And I find that so fascinating that there are organizations that are so entrenched in that old way that even the benefits that I would imagine even those companies saw during COVID somehow don't drown out the noise for them .

As humans , there's one thing we love more than anything else , and particularly if we're stressed and when I say stressed , I don't actually mean always stressed out , I just mean this low lying level of stress which , I'm going to say , 99% of people around today have .

We get it from lifestyle factors and we get it from everything else , and when we have that low lying level of stress , we start to love the status quo , we start to love the familiar . We don't like change because that's dangerous according to our evolved brain , and so there's a massive draw for everybody .

I mean , you see this in all walks of life , not just corporations , but people go back to old habits .

So I'm not surprised to see it , but again , hopefully , those companies that do are very aware of what's going on would reverse it again if they started to see their employees start to suffer or they started to lose market share it's probably the market share one more Exactly . It'll make them change their mind again .

So I can understand that there's a potentially really large push and pull between those forces .

Because you say most people criticize the profit mechanism , saying , oh well , yeah , corporations are just there to be profit-making and greedy and everything else and they don't really care how they get there .

Well , actually , when you start really looking at that , they have to care how they get there , not only because you and I as a consumer , in this age of awareness let's bring it back to that you and I as a consumer are being far more detailed in how we scrutinize a business . We're starting to ask questions about , well , kind of , how do you do that ?

Or how do you make it , where does it come from , what the process is .

But also , companies are starting to become aware , as we've been talking about , their lifeblood is the creativity and the output of their staff , and I honestly believe the companies that survived this massive paradigm shift that we're about to go through are the ones most attuned to that , and the ones who aren't will likely fall by the wayside .

So , if we go back to the personal experience of this , how can I , how can our listeners , build a mindset that helps us deal with all these rapid changes and this low level of stress that you said basically 99% of us are dealing with all the time right now and probably makes it hard for us to make certain kind of decisions what's our best next step for

ourselves as individuals ?

I was represented Britain on the British ski team as a youth and I got this opportunity to actually come out to your beautiful country and go up into the mountains in Killington and there's a school up there called the Killington Mountain School which combines skiing and schoolwork and it was there I met this sports psychologist and he was the one that really

introduced to me at age 13 or 14 , that there's a mental game to sport as well as a physical game and that really started with lots of visualization and imagery and meditation and things like that . But it was building that awareness that was so fascinating and I kind of know it through my own personal life how powerful that can be .

So I'm autistic and so essentially one of the things that means I was going to say the thing no , it's just one of the things is I'm naturally prone to anxiety . I sometimes describe myself as the canary , in the coalmine . In a fast-moving environment , I should be the one that burns out every day .

I'm very , very lucky where I live in that I can walk through a small forest down to the sea and it's idyllic . But even if I'm in the middle of a city I will still make sure I just go and find a park , find anywhere where you can just step back .

It's the actual physical version of mentally checking out for a minute and what you find is , as you just spend time with your thoughts , they start to just come through and it's almost like I have this kind of image in my head of when I was young and that was this process on old computers but you defragmented the disk .

Actually , it's a bigger ask for a lot of people than what I've just said , because we actually hate being alone with our thoughts . I don't know if you're aware of a study that was done about 10 , 15 years ago where they sat people in a room and they gave them the option of sitting there alone for 15 minutes with nothing or electrocuting themselves .

I think it was about 68% of people , a minister , the electric shock just to entertain themselves . So being alone with our thoughts is something that we don't particularly always like to do .

But from there it's then about building things like a tolerance for uncertainty , and you can do that again by it's kind of mental games just going . Well , how would this thing triggers me . When uncertainty builds here , I'm triggered emotionally . What would happen if I acted as if I had massive tolerance for uncertainty ? What would happen if I didn't do that ?

How would I respond and how would I feel ? And one of the most amazing things about our brain is this thing called plasticity and that is that it changes and we can change it . It is the most incredible process we have that the wires we set down .

When we're in a big emotionally triggered event , we lay down a wire , but it doesn't mean that that wire has to remain there . We can choose to go in . And sometimes it's a lengthy process because some of these wires we build through habits and everything else for decades . But we can change them .

And so we've talked about what can , and I know there are many more things we've , you know , just this is kind of a starting point is the awareness and maybe doing that , going for a walk or doing something to interrupt that pattern . What do you think is the most important action or policy that an organization can do to be supportive of resiliency ?

And that will potentially look different for every organization , but I don't think it's beyond the tools we have in our modern society to actually delve in on an individual basis and be very personal , rather than this , again , traditional approach of broad brush and I think the broad brush approach really was there just because , again , we didn't have the tools .

If we go back 100 years , we didn't have the tools to personalize everything to everybody's individual needs . But we do today and I think that's the next step in kind of everything we've talked about . Is that personalization ? So I mean for me , I know that I work far better very , very early in the morning . I will schedule all of my deep work .

So if I'm working on anything where I really have to put in effort cognitively , I will schedule that first thing , Because I know I have four or five hours in the morning where I can race through stuff , Whereas if I attempted to do that in the afternoon , I actually just it isn't just I do a bad job or I'm slower , it actually affects me all night like I'm

then shattered doing the same task . And that's a very , very simple kind of example of just personalization . And you know , again , I'm very fortunate in that I do have some autonomy over my time in the business I work in , and I realize that some others don't . But that's where the corporation comes in , isn't it ?

Yes , and they just kind of go okay , well , let's try all this , and I think that's all we need is businesses just to be brave enough to go . Let's give it a go and let's see where we , where we get to . So for me , it's personalization and just injecting in and using modern technology

to assist us in doing that endeavor .

I kind of clarify that because it sounds like a really kind of dangerous and dark topic , but I'm an optimist for the future and I base that on all of the work and research that I put into , not just the book but my job as well as a futurist and investment strategist on that side .

It's one of the things that you cannot deny is , when you look through human history , we are the most adaptable , innovative , creative creatures going . We just are insanely well suited to that kind of abstract thinking that we break through .

And the issue is , or the sad thing is , that the one thing that stops that , the one thing that takes away our superpower talking about real superpowers , that is our real superpower and the one thing that takes that away is stress . You flip from being adaptable , innovative and creative and you become rigid , closed-minded and often aggressive .

And you see that around us all day , every day , of people in very , very extreme emotions . And I don't deny that we have some massive hurdles ahead as a human race . We really do . We have some challenges up ahead , but we can overcome all of those , I honestly believe , if we can be in our best state .

And so that's where I say that the real threat to humanity is not from the climate , it's not from demographic changes , it's not from nuclear war , it's not from any of these other things . We can overcome every single one of those . At least we can adapt to every single one of those . But we won't do it if we remain in this stressed out state . Yeah .

We fixate on control and everything else , but self-compassion is such a key thing , it's also the thing so again I'm going to bring this back to the brain states when we're in this lowest stress state , or calm , or joy . There's some researchers who would call it that's one of the most connected to others , we are empathetic , we are intimate , even .

That's kind of where intimacy lies and that has to . You can't be in those states and not be self-compassionate . In fact , self-compassion can be a shortcut to getting on , because we can use it as a kind of a biohack in modern jargon , right .

You don't have to single yourself out and go , oh , I'm so bad , I'm such a failure , I'm such a loser , or whatever else kind of goes through your head . You can just go actually , this is I'm experiencing what it is to be human . That , to me , is self-compassion .

I have on there , oh , which is kind of just 10 questions and it just scores you of do you have a high , medium or low tolerance of uncertainty ? Because this is really what a lot of my work focuses on on that side is how well suited is your thinking at the moment to rapidly changing environments ?

So , yeah , people , if they just go to the Uncertainty Scientists , they can find all they want about me and probably more .

I'm a survivor of mass violence and I use my experience to help leaders learn about resiliency , compassion and trauma sensitive leadership To build strategies to enable teams to thrive and be engaged amidst difficulty and turmoil .

If this is something you want to learn more about , visit my website , wwwmanjachalinskycom , or email me at manja at Manja Chalinsky , or stop by my social media on LinkedIn and Twitter . Thanks so much .