¶ Intro / Opening
If mindfulness is a blocker for you , then let's never use it again . You don't need to . The word is not what matters . As I sort of mentioned around leaders , the goal is not to be a mindful leader . The goal is not to be a mindful friend or spouse or friend .
The goal is to be a caring one , a human one , and I think using the phrase intention is a really powerful thing . Phrase intention is a really powerful thing .
Hello and welcome to Notes on Resilience . I'm your host , manya Chilinski . My guest today is Alex Snyder . He's a strategy lead with the US federal government and co-founder of MindfulFed , the first ever government-wide mindfulness community , and we talk today about mindfulness , compassion and leadership and how to approach mindfulness in the workplace .
It was a really eye-opening conversation . I think you're going to enjoy it , alex . I'm so excited to be talking to you today . Thank you for being here .
Thanks for having me , Manya
This was really fun . The first question before we dive into the topic is what is one thing you have done that you never
¶ Mindfulness and Compassion in the Workplace
thought you would do ?
What a beautiful question and I love how , just in that question , it is the sense of possibility less than change . I remember jumping on a mindfulness call that we have every week and there was no facilitator there .
They missed the meeting and I remember just checking in with myself and just saying I can lead , this Doesn't need to be perfect , it just needs to be whatever that moment required .
And so that moment of like not having to prepare for something and to show up and saying I can provide a supportive mindfulness practice for a couple hundred folks without any preparation , that certainly would have scared me that the living jesus that would be before yes , I like that just showing up , and it doesn't have to be perfect .
Yeah , and if I can add just one thing to that to really respond to what the moment needed versus a , I need to show people what a great facilitator I am . So I'm going to write a really great plan and like have people be impressed by it , Be able to put my hand up and say there's a need and I can help meet that need .
Yeah , that's using your mindfulness being very present in the moment , and I can appreciate that . And I can appreciate that feeling when , in the moment , you realize you're doing it as well . So that's kind of that's a very satisfying feeling to hey , I actually , in my case , hey , I actually know what I'm doing .
So we are here to talk about mindfulness , and mindfulness at work and in the workplace . This is something you have a lot of experience with . Just to start us off , how does incorporating mindfulness in the workplace contribute to building a culture of compassion and openness ?
I think my first answer is it doesn't always and I think in a lot of my experience . More on the receiving end of sort of a mindfulness training , a program going to a session I've seen a lot of the times it really doesn't contribute to a culture of compassion and connection and what it does instead is it sort of isolates folks .
There's a little bit of like an opt-in , opt-out culture . So who chooses to go , who doesn't choose to go ? Then there's also kind of the personal struggle with mindfulness . All right , so my company or my workplace hosted like a mindfulness session , a seminar , a little teacher come in and give us the tools and tricks , and then we go back to our inboxes .
I go back to sort of a stressful meeting and maybe I say something I regret or I make a mistake or I'm not particularly mindful , and so what happens is , instead of this mindful session connecting me a bit more to myself , make me feel more grounded , there's sort of this unsettled feeling of I have the tools , I've learned them , but I'm not applying them .
It's my fault .
I think that's such a human response to learn something like mindfulness , as you're saying , and then feel like I'm not doing it right or there's something wrong with me that I'm not , I'm not taking in these principles in the right way . I think we do get stuck into that . I'm not doing it right , piece .
What motivated me to become a mindfulness facilitator about five , six years ago now that I've been leading was because I was relatively new to the practice . I had only been practicing for three or four years at that point and I talked to a bunch of friends about mindfulness and they would say something to the effect of I'm so bad at meditating .
I I try to sit quietly and like six seconds later I'm like running through these thoughts and I can't stop . And what I want to say is you're doing it like you're aware that you're distracted and you're like that is mindfulness . It's not this sort of bunk on a hill or the kind of proverbial perfectly blank mind where everything is just tranquil .
It's having your mind go to your shopping list , go to wanting to go to Instagram and then recognizing that the mind is there and it's doing these crazy things . And I want and like part of why I chose this journey is because I wanted this . Like give them a hug and say you're doing it , go a little bit easy on yourself .
Yes , I've heard that as well when I've talked about my meditation practice . Oh , I can't meditate because my mind goes everywhere and I think I don't always say , but
¶ The Impact of Personal Mindfulness
I often think the same thing no , that's okay , that's what it is . But we do have this picture that it's somehow this perfectly blank mind and again we focus on I don't think I'm doing it right . There's a lot of fear of that . I don't entirely know where that comes from . I have a hypothesis .
I think it comes from a really beautiful place . I have a hypothesis . I think it comes from a really beautiful place .
There's this quality of self-improvement , of learning and growth that I have certainly felt in my life ever since I was like a good student in high school and getting good grades , and like getting my major in college and having the professors sort of see my learning and growth and there is a sense of the more effort I put in and the more I strive and I try ,
I'm going to get better at this . You know something that applies to that , to all the fitness groups , all these sorts of other areas too , and we kind of bring it into this mindfulness space of like I need to do better , I need need to do more .
And I think the challenge is the goal is sort of set up as this elusive , impossible thing of the clear mind , as opposed to watching everything and being aware of things , and so it's sort of like maximizing against sort of a and like illusory goal of like stillness and perfectly zen mind in that sort of mindset .
Yeah , as you're saying that , I remember I was taking a mindfulness class and back in the day when we left our homes more to do things and I was late , and I was going to be late and it was clear that there was no way I was going to arrive before the session started and the amount of stress I had that I was going to be late was off the charts and
I'm someone who's not generally late for most things , so that also played into it . That also played into it , and it didn't even occur to me until I got there and the instructor was this is fine , you're here now , it's all good .
How I don't know contradictory it was to get so panicked that I was going to be five minutes late for a class where I was or not a class , but a session where I was learning how to be present .
Yeah , it's interesting , Manya . I mean I think my reaction would be not to say it's contradictory , but it's an illustration of how artificial these boundaries are between what is mindfulness practice and what is not . And you know one of the .
You know I'll come back to this example in particular in a second but it kind of brings to mind like when you talk about therapy and sort of like what is the therapeutic context ? And one of the big parts of that is actually your relationship with the therapist .
It's not just like dredging up stories of your childhood , it's actually how are you feeling about sharing that or being present ? And for me , for example , I had all these stories about being late for therapy appointments and what the therapist would think about me and judge me , and that was my own work around , how I felt about .
Signals were there and perhaps that's what's coming up for you .
And then , specifically with the idea of having this anxiety about being late and showing up in this mindfulness context , like just what you're demonstrating , there is your awareness of what's happening in your mind and sort of where this like relational context of what are people going to think about you , what will the teacher think about , how you're valuing their
offerings . That is itself just as valuable as sitting with your mind and seeing how you relate to writing a shopping list while you want to be counting your breaths .
That's it . I appreciate that way of thinking about it . I didn't feel particularly mindful in the moment . I probably was more than I was willing to admit , but I appreciate your input . You talk about mindfulness at work and it is entirely a personal thing . It's in our own minds . We do our practice .
But how does it relate to being in the workplace or what is it like to do mindfulness in a work setting ?
Well , I do want to spend a moment with , kind of the intro to the question of saying mindfulness is a personal thing . I think that's something that's worth exploring for a couple of reasons .
I think about when I'm getting ready for a family gathering , how I show up in that setting , being reactive , having unmet needs , wanting people to be a certain way in controlling behavior , what I do with my mindfulness before that setting . Am I finding space to go for a run ?
Am I taking some stillness and some slowness , or am I like rushing straight from a stressful workday into that family setting ? That has an impact on the family that I'm with . That own sort of like personal sort of practice that I have actually has a huge relational impact .
And then and I'll get to the workplace in a second that moment we have with our family and sort of the quality of that connection , quality of the listening . That's going to go back to how I feel after that setting .
So when I leave that family setting and whether I feel activated and stressed and anxious or a sense of joy and peace and calm is based off of what is happening in that family setting .
Energy is how much people are paying attention , whether we're able to get into stupid fights about dumb things or able to really see each other and to feel connected and feel that joy of coming back together . I think in a workplace there's a similar dynamic at a place .
So the way that I show up before 9am , when I sign into the workday , that affects what happens in those meetings . When they go off according to plan , when there's not what I expect happening , how do I respond to ? That is based on my own personal practice and then also how those meetings go .
If a colleague responds to me with grace and forgiveness for my mistake , if they , you know , highlight some mistake that I did and really rake me over the coals for that , that's going to filter out into the rest of my day how I treat my family , how I treat that stranger in a coffee shop , and so these boundaries between sort of a personal , independent
practice and what happens during our workday .
I would sort of argue that it's really more of a continuum of how our own personal sense of self and sense of what we're striving for impacts others that we're with , but also how qualities of joy and happiness and connection that other people are sort of bringing to us , showing us as an example , modeling help us channel those qualities as well .
How does that land for ?
you ? Yes , I see what you're saying and , again , it's the question that you asked when we first got on this call , before we hit record , which is how are you showing up today ?
And I love that question , but , as you just explained , that is something in me , but that is also how I relate to the people around me , and in this case , we're talking about the workplace . That affects my colleagues and my team .
Do you mind if I tell you a quick story ?
Please do .
So I used to work at the State Department and I worked sort of in the same office for about 10 years give and take , and I had this fascinating experience during my farewell it was over Zoom , since it was during the pandemic , and it was this really strange experience where you know sort of these farewell things , you sort of people say nice things about you ,
then you say nice things about them , and it's a little bit of a weird dance . What's so interesting about it was when I was going through my list of things that I really appreciate about the office , sort of this quality of generosity and supporting me when I was traveling or out of the office , being bringing a sense of humor to work .
That was actually difficult , sometimes working in pretty , pretty dangerous places , um , sort of this , this general like kindness and like really caring about one another more so than just the normal like work day and nine to five . Those qualities that are really valued and saw in my colleagues were actually the same ones that they mirrored back and they saw and
¶ The Power of Human Connection
valued in me and it was just , you know , being there for long enough to sort of see that growth of the qualities of myself and finding some play and fun amidst the difficult work .
That was something that I brought , a little bit based on my own sense of self , my own personality , but it was also cultivated and reinforced and made stronger by the people I worked with .
Yeah , wow , that's a cool story and an important observation , again on that same topic of how do we show up affects , how people show up for us in that moment . Well , thank you for sharing that . And to think about the workplace , like how can leaders model mindfulness for their teams , can they ?
I'm taking a moment because I'm wondering whether modeling mindfulness is the point .
Okay .
What I think about mindfulness is it's not the goal , just like the goal of meditation is not to become a good meditator and the goal isn't necessarily to be more mindful . It's what that allows us to do . And so I think what a leader needs to do is not say I'm just going to be mindful . Remind someone to be mindful .
They need to think about what they're trying to do with them , and so one thing I would offer is a role of a leader is to care for their people , to really understand what their needs are , both sort of like physical needs as well you know , a paycheck and the time off and the sick leave but also the emotional needs , sort of feeling valued , feeling appreciated
, feeling like they're actually contributing to a team .
And so for a leader that wants to go and kind of model that to their team , I think what I would offer is you have to start by caring about your team and like that's the starting point , and that means noticing when they contribute in small ways behind the scenes , and then what mindfulness allows you to say is like oh interesting , my colleague went above and
beyond I know it was after hours and they helped me with this thing . It helped me get this project to my boss in time , and what mindfulness allows you to do is to sort of slow down to that moment to see the person and actually appreciate them .
And one of the things that I've read about before is the definition between recognition and appreciation , where recognition is the simple like you did your job , thank you to actually seeing the person who did that and did it in a certain way , whether that was their creativity or their kind of dedication to it and really seeing that quality of them that's worth
appreciating and valuing versus sort of a generic . I should appreciate you because I'm a boss and we're told we should recognize our employees .
Right .
I sort of sidestepped your question , but I think one more thing I wanted to add . I talked about , you know . You asked like how can leaders model mindfulness ? And I mentioned one idea which is sort of appreciation , really noticing how people show up and that quality of care . The other is kind of noticing your own mind and your own sort of sense of self .
And so , for example , I've been guilty myself of going into meetings when I'm leading a conversation , trying to get to a decision on a certain project or proposal , and then noticing that there's a quality that I have of wanting to be the leader , wanting to be decisive , and what mindfulness looks like in those settings is being aware of this sense of maybe it's
an ego , maybe it's a role that I'm playing , I think I need to embody , and then noticing how that might stand between myself and connection and listening . And so what a mindful leader would do in that context would be to say , okay , I'm noticing that I have this idea . I'm sort of like gripping onto it pretty tightly .
It seems like there are people who have different ideas and I really want to understand what those are , and I'm also noticing a bit of attachment to my idea that I brought in here , and so what you're modeling is sort of this awareness of yourself and an intention to have other voices and other perspectives , to really value them and invite them in .
So it's really building a sense of awareness , self-awareness , awareness of what's going on around us . And I say that , I guess , for people for whom the term mindfulness feels a little too woo-woo , because I get that too when I talk about mindfulness and meditation , the response of people who feel , well , I'm more practical , and that is kind of way out there .
And it isn't . It's something that we all do at some point in our lives . It's just doing it with intentionality . Am I saying that right ?
Yeah , I think naming intention is a really powerful word in this context . Yeah , I think naming intention is a really powerful word in its context . One of the frameworks I might offer and I think you're absolutely right like , if mindfulness is a blocker for you , then let's never use it again . You don't need to . The word is not what matters .
As I sort of mentioned around leaders , the goal is not to be a mindful leader . The goal is not to be a mindful friend or spouse or friend . The goal is to be a caring one , a human one , and I think using the phrase intention is a really powerful thing .
One of the examples I might offer is I imagine everyone who's listening to this has had the experience of being on cloud nine , of like having good news from work and like watching a really beautiful movie . The weather's perfect and we have this sense of resilience .
Like the cab driver can be mean to you , your food can be cold , someone can say something kind of cruel to you and it just watered off a dog's back .
We all had that experience , and we've also had the experience when we're like really crappy and really tired and exhausted and someone can like say something that's pretty anodyne but it feels like a slight to us and we're so reactive .
And so what I think about mindfulness whatever you want to call it , what it does is it takes this sense of how we want to show up in our life , the sort of intention of how we want to be , and we all know it Kindness , compassion , forgiveness , generosity .
Like it's in our life , the sort of intention of how we want to be , and we all know it Kindness , compassion , forgiveness , generosity . It's in our DNA , it's human , and so it's the gap between how we show up , how we want to show up , and then how we actually do on a daily basis .
We're stuck with the small issues stubbing our toes and having a rainy day when we were hoping to have a picnic and also the more challenging ones whether that's so that could be an election loss , that could be something like the death of the family , that could be a more difficult situation at work or interpersonally , a breakup .
And so when you have those really challenging things to deal with , what mindfulness does and that can also be self-awareness or other things it helps narrow that gap between how we want to show up in that ideal situation and how we actually can on a daily basis when we're stuck with the challenges of life .
I like thinking of it that way , that closing the gap between how we want to show up and how we do show up . Alex , we're getting close to the end of our time . What is giving you hope these days ?
What feels alive for me is there's such an existential sort of focus in a lot of our world that's like the election , all these difficult things , and what's giving me hope is just this human thirst to connect , and I've seen that .
I was at a running group this morning and I was imagining these 30 people could have gone on a run by themselves on this kind of cold Friday morning and it would have been a totally different experience than what it was like running together , running as a group .
And so I think this moment , if it does anything , drives us more towards each other and it reminds us that , yeah , we can do things alone , including mindfulness , including meditation but also when we do it together , when we share this experience with other people , it's just a much different one and a much richer one .
And so I think this human thirst to connect on just a very individual , human basis , like that , is something that does get me out .
Oh , that's a lovely thought . Thank you for sharing that . And before we wrap up , a lovely thought . Thank you for sharing that . And before we wrap up , tell our listeners how can ?
Part of what I get excited about with writing is thinking about writing as something to explore together . It's kind of a topic that people can go and read an article and then react to it and sort of treat as something to experience together with other people , and so that's why I started writing , and so I have a sub stack .
Human bureaucracy is where you can find most of my writing . I also write for psychology today , but I've linked to all those things on my sub stack , so that's the best way to find me , and feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn or other places . We'd love to connect .
Excellent . Thank you so much . I've really enjoyed our conversation today .
Thanks Manya .
Thank you for listening . I'm Manya Chylinski . I help organizations analyze their culture , focusing on building environments where well-being and resilience can thrive . Focusing on building environments where well-being and resilience can thrive .
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It really helps others find us . And if you want to continue the conversation , connect with me on LinkedIn or visit my website , www . manyachylinski . com . Thank you for being part of this journey with me .