Fred & Rose West

In May nineteen ninety two, Gloucester Police in England received a tip that a young teenage girl had opened up about having been sexually abused by her father.

Oh god.

The girl had nine siblings, only seven of whom still lived at home at twenty five Cromwell Street. The two no longer lived there, had left of their own accord, or had they. Police had no idea that this one tip would end up uncovering one of the most horrific stories they would ever hear, and we will ever hear, I hope, of the most heinous crimes, including multiple murders over twenty years. Twenty years committed by a husband and wife.

Oh my god, I know this story, and I don't know this story, so I'm very excited to hear you tell this story.

Unfortunately, after researching this one deeply, I know it very well.

Hey there, everybody, welcome to not another crime podcast. You love and I'm back, I'm saying Peterson, and I'm back. You're always, I'm always, and I am not as always. If you want to skip ahead and just listen to the story, the time code is in the show notes.

And we're not going to yab it for too long.

You're going too long. It is absolutely but g love. You've been sick recently.

Oh my god. I feel like our listeners who haven't known me before this year will think I'm all sick and or on holidays. And I will say that this year has been permeated by both of those.

Yes it has.

I'm not usually this sick. I've been very rundown.

Are you usually this holiday?

Yes? I don't understand the point of working if it's not to spend your money on travel like that is the biggest said it just then, and I'll say it again later when you least expect it. So yes, I do travel a lot sometimes holidays. Sometimes it's work, sometimes it's both. But I have been sick often this year. It's not fun for me. It's also not fun for you, as my podcast partner. It's not fun for the listeners

It's been a lot of years.

That's right, So yes, thank you very much for carrying me. I've just been so rundown, so sick, and then I finally got over like the LOGI part of it that stopped me from physically getting out of bed for a full week, the lurgy, and when I finally could get out of bed again, my body punished me by just simply removing my voice, which is also fun for my job as a radio.

Yeah, of course, so what you've been producing this week.

Has been producing. I have literally not been able to speak, so I've just been writing stuff for everyone, just been you know, real a guy around the office, and finally today I was back on air. I know I always have a husky voice, but I'm also where it is huskier than usual. But I'm back and I'm going to do I think the longest story I've ever done, which is great to do with asky voice. So apologize if

You're welcome. God, You're welcome, And thank you to your crazy for filling love my God.

Thank you to Joel. So. Joel has been a dear friend of mine for I think like eight or nine years now, and I love him and Australia loves him, and we asked.

Him on this podcastle I was always telling.

Him he laughs. And then when he finally came on, all on him here. Thank you Joel, Thank you Sammy as always for just being the goddamn best and somehow just always delivering. Well, you're just the best anyway. One thing that has happened it is important to mention since we last recorded you and I together, is that Wicked for Good has been released. Yes, I'm not going to harp on it too much, but it would be remiss

I happy to bring it out.

YEA.

Theater girlies have always known Jonathan Balley is the sexiest man alive.

So who is this person? So he is? So he's a Broadway.

Who Okay, he's English. He started as a West End performer, he was. He became more commercially known when he featured in Bridgeton and now he is very world famous and will go down in history as playing Fierro in both of the playing in both of the Wicked movies. And this year he has been voted People's Sexiest man Alive. And actually I think that was announced when I was last recording, But since then Wicked for Good has come out and I just like.

We got passed up again again again Anthony Wig that's right, he is.

The first openly gay man to be named People's sexiest man alive.

Really, what about David Williams, He's.

Never actually been named?

Really otten everyone great reference.

He is the sexiest man alive. I am so deeply obsessed with him. That's not about Wicked, that's just about him. He's really hot. Just anyway, Wicked for Good has been torn apart by critics. Really, I will say the only thing I'm gonna.

Sun's first worship No, you know, sorry, I'll put that on myself when people comment on something haven't actually seen.

I have heard that it is the worsho of all time. It has also been renewed, renewed for a second season. I think there has been so much hate watching, which I understand because Mum and Me Too is inarguably the worst movie of all time, and I think it six times the Austronimo My Mummy or with a double M to the musical is the worst movie of all time and one.

Of my favorites say you can't rag on your employee like that.

I watched it actually get on the weekend through the People's We Could. Two has been not torn apart, but it's it's critics of how to go at it.

Yeah, right.

I have two things to say about that. One is one is people are talking about it as a piece of cinema that has been created this year. It is the second half of a musical that was written and it has been released since two thousand and three, so the story has already written. Stop commenting on that is my first thing to say.

Yes.

The second thing to say is people always rag on things that are popular, and that wasn't meant to be a wicked one, but it happened to be, and particularly that women really like. And that's just gonna be my only feminist rant for today that just because it's popular and women love it does not mean you have to say it shit.

That's right.

Cynthia Arrivo singing No Good Deed was an out of body experience for me and no one can take that away from me.

And Anthony Lloyd Webbert wrote that and retired, and he's lived a very comfortable life.

I think it's time to get in today's story.

Well, no, it's okay, so you liked it though, you thought it was good.

So I enjoyed the first one more the first. So if you haven't seen Wicked the movies, it's not a movie and a sequel. It is one story.

Cut in half.

Yeah, and it is the musical cut in half, but not enough. The first half of the musical and the second half of the musical. The second act of the musical is significantly shorter than the first. Added two new songs to the second Wicked movie.

Which suck, which intended.

The new song suck. I'm very happy to.

Say that new songs wedged in.

Two new songs. They both absolutely.

Suck, levitating Julia No.

But as cliches that the one that alphabar the Wicked Witch things is called There's No Place Like Home. It's like they gave school kids an assignment a song to write a song that the Wicked Witch would have sung, like, Oh, There's no plates like Home. Oh so unique. The other song of Glinda sings, it's called The Girl and the Bubble. They're both shit. They're both basic anyway, whatever, we'll move on from that. The second half or the second act of the musical is not as good as the first.

And Andrew Lord Webber would be spinning in his Grave's not He's not.

Definitely definitely posted on Instagram today. He posted on Instagram.

Okay, at the time recording, Angela Webber.

Don't put the mos on Andrew.

Because Max Paul Sheffield is still alive, so I imagine they're similar ages.

If no, no, no, I'm not even going to say it's okay.

At the time of recording, he is not dead. And if this comes out on Monday and Andrela Webber is still not dead.

Then we have, as in often another crime podcast where we investigate where the Sammy murdered and.

I was nowhere near there at the time. Hey, enjoy this week's episode. Please the word well yeah, I know. Please do leave us a five star rating, five star review. The more you share this podcast around, the more we can keep doing it. We love doing this podcast, so please do continually share this with a friend, friends ends, lots of them, heaps of friends and rating. Leave if you want, leave a five star rating, five star review. Can they follow us?

Yes, they can on Instagram and TikTok, both of them have the same handle not Another Crime Podcast. They can also email us at Sammy at just Another podcast dot com dot are you just an the company?

Do it? Do it again? Quick? You got it?

They can email us at Sammy at just Another company dot com dot.

You that was good that episode?

Is this like forty seven or forty yeah?

And also a voicemail which we call a speak pipe is the website. All of the links are in.

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Believe it will play it, hey, enjoy again listen, listen to this week's episode.

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And Andreela Webber, May you rest or not rest in peace? This is This is this week's episode.

This episode, All of our episodes that deal with crime obviously come with trigger warnings. I want to give some really strong trigger warnings up the top of this one. In particular, it deals with the deaths of children and physical and sexual abuse of adults and children. Now I won't go I don't go into detail about the sexual abuse, but it does come up unfortunately, So lots of trigger warnings here. All right, are you ready?

No?

Fred West was born in nineteen forty one in rural Herod for Shit and now Herod for Shit. Yes, I think it's that, like Leicester is Leicester not life. I think it's Herod for shit, har for ship, Herod for shit, and I apologize if it's not. In England into a large and economically struggling family. His parents were named Walter and Daisy, which sounds like a Disney couple, it.

Does, and also like very British as well, Walter, they.

Were not a Disney couple, that's right. Oh yeah, maybe.

That's why.

My brain is not that like. It's pretty easy to read. Fred was the second of eight children, but two of his siblings died during all shortly after childbirth. Okay, Fred was born a year after Daisy's first daughter, Violet, had died. By all accounts, Fred was very much Daisy's favorite, even above her husband. Because of this, he did not have a good relationship with his father, Walter, because you know, being jealous of a baby is totally normal and.

Fine, normal and fine and cool and actually pretty cool.

The living space where they lived on a farm was very cramped. The bathrooms were simply buckets, and they ate a lot of the time. All the children ate in a day was the unpasteurized milk Dad would bring home.

Oh wow, okay.

Despite being very much loved by his mother at home, it was not a good upbringing and he did not have good relationships otherwise. Fred was bullied for being a mummies boy him and was described as dim, which it's not a nice way to describe someone. But I enjoy.

That work dim is dim is a fun way to describe very.

Like you can see it's like a light.

Not yeah, yeah, it makes total sense when you say it, but everyone knows exactly what you mean if you've never heard the wood.

And also were allowed to call for a dim because he's much worse than that. His brothers, Doug and John in particular, really hated him, and they would all the siblings would be physically punished by their father. Fred dropped out of school early. He was academically stunted, but he was dim exactly. But also there were questions raised about whether he was also stunted in other areas, particularly socially, emotionally,

Yeah, oh wow. It must have been a really bad one.

Very bad. He slowly regained the ability to speak, but he had a significant head injury, and it's not known if this caused lasting brain damage, plus a severe fear and hatred of hospitals full shadowing. During his recovery, he would still go out and try to live a normal life. But after the accident, everyone in his life noted a big change in his attitude, particularly when it came to anger. He became much more aggressive and angered very quickly.

He didn't seem great before the start, so exactly he.

Told people who was deeply unhappy living at them and living under his parents' rule. In the early sixties, he started to get in regular trouble with the law, mostly shoplifting, petty thefts, and fights. The worst of his crimes at this time was that he had sexually assaulted his young teenage sister. He didn't understand why his parents and the

Oh my god. I guess if like, you know, not excuse him this at all. But I think, like, if his dad has shown him certain things, he's obviously got a very warped sense of what's right and what's wrong.

Yeah, that's kind of all this background, I suppose, from all the research suggests in absolutely no way, shape or form excusing or explaining anything, but it does. There is a lot about the multiple head injuries. I haven't gone into the others, but there were other things like fights where he had bad knocks to the head and hear.

Him talk as well. He does, like his voice is kind of it's a strange voice.

Yeah, well he's got a very very low IQ and so yeah, I mean the way I've put it is stunted in kind of all aspects of you know, emotion, social interactions, everything.

Sure.

In nineteen sixty two, he met eighteen year old Rena, who was also described as a difficult child. Again was in trouble for petty theft fighting. She'd been moved around to different family members to try to bring her back on track. She was actually from Glasgow but was living in England where and when she met Fred.

Just a side note, that's my favorite accent in the Glaswegian.

Accent Glasgow, exactly exactly right. The only favorite, the way I can think of a Scottish accent is this one a little bit, this one sentence that's from like a little nursery rhyme type thing that my friend Shanaid, who is Scottish, taught me. I don't know the rest of the rhyme, but one because Dani wertruzers, Oh great, that's maybe what Marina sounds Dan and Shrek. Come on, do Shrek? I know you want to come on?

I don't know what the regular phrase I used to say as Shrek was, but it was like gama swamp, don't queer? Was that said exactly that?

So?

Yes, Rena was Glaswegian but living in England when she met Fred. She was working as a sex worker. And when she met Fred she was pregnant to a Pakistani man. It is speculated that she may have moved to England because her family didn't agree with the pregnancy right, particularly given it was going to be a mixed race child.

And this was the sixties.

Was it sixties?

She was years old? Oh my god, And you imagine sex work at that time. They didn't call it that, but sex work. You imagine just how horrible that would have been for her.

Yeah, and the racism with it as well. Right, But when she met Fred, they quickly got into a relationship, and when her baby daughter arrived, the couple told people that she had actually lost her baby during childbirth and they had adopted this baby to explain why the baby girl had darker skin than both of her parents. The baby's name was Charmaine.

Have you seen the film The Jerk with Steve Martin and his and he's grown up and finds out he's adopted, and he's with a clearly African American, beautiful family and he finds out he's adopted that like when he was like twenty years like Elf, Yeah, it's exactly like als well, Elf as well.

If he doesn't know he's a human by now.

He's.

Beautiful because my brother was adopted. And I think, you know, it can be hard sometimes realizing that you feel different or you're look different or anything. And you know, obviously back then that would have been harder. You know, my parents found it hard to explain to people, you know, you just so, so I imagine at this time it would have been even harder, Oh God, to explain.

Yeah, and isn't that awful as well? But you know, people just go, well, why yeah, exactly. A friend of mine is adopted. She was born in Korea and was adopted to an Australian family, a white Australian family, and she said she didn't have any concept that she didn't look the same as her until she started school and people asked her why she looked different to her perpent Oh wow, isn't that fast?

Quickly? I found a book when I was really young, and the book was called why am I adopted? And I thought it for me?

Oh my god, Sammy, Oh stop, I'm just picturing kittling face kid photos.

I've seen of you, just asking the question. Oh.

My sister always tried to tell me I was adopted because she didn't like me and my mom. I like the spitting image.

Of it, exactly.

Yeah, all right, So baby Charmain arrived in nineteen sixty two. Fred became very obsessed with Rena, very quickly, thinking she was quite worldly and wild. You know, she'd come from a different country, she you know, had a baby, she'd been working in the sex industry. He would demand sex from her whenever he wanted it, and yeah, and Rena essentially felt she had no choice. She also became obsessed with him in what I am describing as a very

Oh wow, that would be so painful and not highland as well?

Yeah also that also that, Yeah, don't do that at home. It's been suggested that Rena was likely seeking stability and the love she felt she didn't otherwise have in her life. They married in nineteen sixty two, the year they met Fred aged twenty one and Rena eighteen. They moved out together back to Scotland, where Rena was from, with baby Charmain.

And like.

By then the marriage was really faltering. He was cheating on Rena a lot, and over time he didn't even try to hide it. Rena hide a nanny to help look after the girls. Her name was Isa McNeil. She moved in with them and was helping them. She was a teenage girl herself. Isa described Rena and Fred's marriage as very tumultuous and very violent. He said, the sorry, she said. The little girl slept in a bottom bunk with bars fitted to essentially cage them in, and they

I guess, so he wouldn't guess.

He was so violent and youk but also he just didn't. He didn't want them around. He wanted his time and his peace at home alone. A friend of Isa's, so is the nanny. A friend of hers named Anne four, who was also from Scotland, came over to England and spent a lot of time at the home as well. She was sixteen. Her boyfriend had been killed in a workplace accident and she really leant on her friend Issa for support and essentially ended up boarding with Fred and

Oh how horrific, and it was.

Ruled that this was totally an accident. How horrific for everyone involved with that, but the town very much turned against him. It would be very hard to see the person that that had been behind the wheel when that happened, whether they were deemed responsible or not. So Fred made the decision to move back to England. He didn't want to live in this town anymore. He took the two baby girls and moved, while Rena set herself up to move as well. I don't really I couldn't really find

Thought that might have been a split. I thought that might have been a way to get out.

She brought Isa McNeil and Anne McFall, the two kind of pseudo well you know, nanny and kind of border slash nanny with her back to England as well. Both these girls came from very poor backgrounds and hoped England would be a better place for them to find jobs and make a start on new lives. They all so, Fred, Rena, Issa and the two baby girls all moved into a caravan together.

Oh wow, crammed.

And Fred found work as a lorry driver for a local abatoir, which I just feel like the only time I hear about people people who aren't think yeah. And Rina got a job at a local cafe. Fred did not stop his violent outbursts, and he also started turning on Isa in particular, as well as Rena and Nanny. So we kind of any female who was kind of living with him, and he saw us under his reign, and he could be violent and angry towards and he would blow up really quickly and really easily and be

I'm not going to explain anything if you.

Guys haven't listened to all the other episodes.

One of the greatest criminals all times.

You never really had much context to bring him up.

I know, it's never come up in a natural way.

So they made pre arranged time to have him come in, not feathers, this man come in and help them kind of pack up and leave while Fred was at work.

Do you look like a penguin?

I'm not sure. I didn't look up photos, but if you want to afterwards we can. It was a chicken he was meant to look No, he was a penguin. He was meant to look like a chitch. He got me again. At the pre arranged time, Fred unexpectedly came home and found them leaving. He was never home at this time, and both Rena and Isa noted that Anne didn't seem that surprised, and she was very calm at Fred's arrival. She stayed calm while Fred was obviously blowing

Oh my god.

And told her friends and family violetters that she'd become infatuated with Fred and believed that living in England with him would set her up for a good life, and she was trying to encourage him to divorce Rena and marry her.

Wow.

Over the coming couple of years, Rena was coming back and forth to see her children and try to take them back into her care, while also trying to remain kind of safe from Fred as well.

Sure she was terrified of him.

Fred was placing them in the care of social services on and off, so that's when she would come back. I'm gonna say that if they in social services care on their mother, I'll take them back, but they continued, I haven't gone into this here, but Reena and Fred continued on and off very toxic, very tumultuous relationship over

Were a little wit and stayed back and yeah wow yeah.

In nineteen sixty seven, and fell pregnant with Fred's baby, but it seemed he was none too pleased about this by the time she was almost full term. When she was eight months pregnant, and left the home one day and Fred never saw her again.

Wow.

Over the next eighteen months, Fred spiraled downwards, which is pretty low from where he do any being. He was arrested multiple times for thefts, He lost his job as a driver. He put his kids back in the care of social services. But Fred's luck was about to change. After being a single dad kind of in and out of social service care for about eighteen months, he set his sights on a woman named Rosemary Lets or a girl I should say she was fifteen Fredan Fred at this time was twenty seven.

Oh my god.

He set his sights on a woman named Rosemary Lets or a girl I should say she was fifteen Fred Fred at this time was twenty seven.

Oh my god.

They met waiting for a bus. Rose initially said she was repulsed by Fred. He was dirty, unkempt, and creepy. Fred didn't let up. He showered her with attention and adoration, and this soon became quite flattering to the young Rosemary.

Letts stayed in touch after meeting at a.

Bus the same bus every day on the same okay, so met her at the bus so this first day, became infatuated with her. Kept going back to the same bus stop and they were getting the same bus.

This is called a meat fowl, a.

Meat foul exact, that's good fowl, like chicken, like I f you w l like feathers. He would like go to He found out where she worked and would go to the cafe and bring her gifts and flowers and was really trying to woo her, and it worked. The two started a relationship within weeks.

After being repulsed by someone. That is such a wild turnaround.

Oh sorry, I've missed a little paragraph here. Fred found her out that Rose hadn't ever had a boyfriend, but was quite promiscuous, and he really liked this.

He liked that Rose was promiscuous.

Yeah, okay, he also very much played up the sob story about being the single father to two little girls having been abandoned by their mother.

Also like you might not know this information.

But I know everything. I mean, you know that about me.

If Rena has left of our own volition and everything. There was no obviously, because she was scared of him. There was no like court thing where it was like you have custody blah blah blah, because that the guy usually have the kids.

Is that the I mean, I know that to be a generalization, but typically true these days. However, it wasn't so much so then. But that aside, that wasn't the case here because remember I they were like in kind of an on again, off again relationship. Like it wasn't. She wasn't saying I'm terrified you and I'm out for good.

Oh okay, and she was already doing that. She was already sending money to her family.

And yeah, bringing money home, bringing money home, so you know, she'd get her paycheck every Friday. It was Fred giving her. So she'd go to work in invert commas and yeah and look after.

And bakers famously aren't very good accounting because of the Baker's.

Doesn't, because Baker's doesn't.

Not a dozen thirteen, is it? Yeah? Why? Because I think the baker always wanted to have one for themselves.

The older twelve for you, one for me.

Literally, let me let me actually check that, because I have that. I made I made that up.

My very first job was at Baker's Delight and I really that maybe the delight is that thirteenth role.

Yeah, a baker's doesn't. And I'm just looked up images lovely bread I'm seeing right now. A baker's doesn't is thirteen items one more than a standard dozen twelve. The term originated from medieval English law that penalized bakers for selling underweight loads of bread. To avoid penalties, bakers would add an extra loaf to every dozen to ensure they met the legal weight requirement.

I'm going to just make the rolls bigger.

Yeah, I'm not sure about that, but yeah, but so they're not very good. That was my joke anyway, It doesn't really matter.

It was good.

Thank you.

It was a good joke. I'm edited here and I'll go like this, of course, because of thirteen thirteen you're very good. You're very good, all right. A bit of background on Rosemary Pauline West. She was born in rural England in nineteen fifty three to parents Bill and Daisy. Let's Daisy again again. Well isn't that funny?

Funny?

Anyway? She was described as quote remarkably unintelligent dim Her brother said she was quote thick as two planks.

You don't want to hear that from your brother.

I kind of like love these like English. She was also described as very lazy and belligerent. She too, like Fred, had a very stunted upbringing. Both academically socially, I've written both, and then I've listed three things academically, socially and intellectually.

You're bloody good as a counter as bloody baker.

As cameras real real good at real well English, and I struggled to.

Actually think of something that was pooring.

In hindsight. When people found that out she was with Fred, people said that they weren't surprised that she ended up with an older man. She always wanted to feel grown up and like she could make it in the world without her parents and the proople who were calling her laziness, thick as two blanks.

Yeah yeah, and not a loving family. They're calling her that, But also like the wildness of her only being fifteen years old. I didn't know.

That fifteen and he was twenty seven. And the thing like age differences feel different at different stages of life, twenty seven is and fifteen. Anyway, after they had dated for a few months, Rose introduced Fred to her family and they were, and I want you to guess the next word I've used.

Disgusted. Yes, yeah, it's actually good.

They forbade her from dating Fred and said they would report him to social services if they ever saw him again, but she defied her parents' wishes. Well, like, what do you not say to a teenage girl? Don't do that. They're going to do it even harder.

Yeap, do it. We love him. She said that reverse psychology exactly.

I thought you were saying that to me. I was like, no, don't do it. This bad story, it is okay, Yeah, I was yeah, reverse psychologe genie or something. Yes. So she defied their wishes and her parents did report him. They reported, you report him to social services. He was seven and she was fifteen. She was ok under age under age relationship, and they also reported rumors, rumors they'd heard, all fears they had that she was engaging in sex work.

Who made that decision, I.

Don't really understand how you can get somebody not examined without there Maybe it was something to do with like between sixteen and eighteen. Maybe at sixteen you are legally allowed to kind of go eversewhear, but until eighteen you're still under the legal guardianship of your parents.

Perhaps different autonomy for that sort of yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.

Yeah, So she agreed to that she would terminate the pregnancy and return her to her family. She did neither. Her defiance this time resulted in her father forbidding her from ever stepping foot back into the family home. Wow, he had tried really hard to protect her, to help her, she had defied him so severely, he said, in this case, we never want to see you again. You've made a choice.

That's enormousn't it. Did you know what their family was like in terms of like, you know, even even socio can like, were they similar to Fred?

Yes?

They were, Yeah, right.

I believe I didn't go heaps into yeah, into either of their upbringings because there's so freaking much to go, but they both were low kind of intellectual, like low IQ, low socioeconomic. I think that Fred was kind of lower socioecono. His family was lower socio economic.

But it's hard because it's just like, you know, if they were this poor family that were like struggling as it was, and then they're trying to get their daughter away, and they're trying to do all this to make that decision, would be would be enormous.

Yeah, it seems they were a lot kind of closer and more a more family than Fred's was. If I'm wrong on that, I do apologize. They didn't go deep into her background upbringing.

The documentary on this on Netflix. Isn't that yeah, yeah, yeah is just watch that but don't know that, but also like there are very descriptive details in that that are.

That's why I've put that at the end.

Okay, well I didn't even know.

So they listened this whole thing and they love it, and they've really connected and they love us, and they tell all their friends and family members to listen to this podcast. And at the end, I'm like, if you want to know more, guess what.

Yeah, listen to this thing. Also if you want to know more, it is such.

Don't you don't want to know more? But again, that's why she listened to this as they are they're hearing this. Love you guys. Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. So here we have a twenty eight year old Fred, sixteen year old Rose, six year old Charmaine, and five year old and Marie and another baby on the way.

Lipping, slipping, slipping, where.

Living happily ever after?

That's not true that I hate.

I'm going to bring back not this is happy story nat. In October nineteen seventy, Rose gave birth to another baby girl named Heather. Another is her first, but they've got charm as well, named.

Heather bring for Baker's three.

Yeah, two months later, so two months after baby head, No it doesn't. I think a Baker's too were going on. I liked it though. Two months after Heather was born, Fred was imprisoned for six and a half months four theft so he was known. Oh yes, yeah, And there were many incidences of a lot of petty theft as kind of his go to violence, fights and things.

That's the thing you don't always like. I mean to to uncover this later. You don't link those.

Oh, there was a lot that was not linked. So Rose was left looking after all three girls on her own as a teenager. Charmaine and Anna Marie were told to refer to Rose as their mother. Rose didn't like being in charge of these three baby girl or two little girls and one baby on her own. The older girls were frequently subjected to criticism, beatings, and other forms

Girls so loved Heather, but yes, yep okay.

Ana Marie was generally submissive and prone to display more emotion. She was the one that was younger. She would get upset and kind of you know, say sorry, what do you want me to do? While Charmaine, the eldest, was very stoic. She rarely cried and she yelled back, which infuriated Rose more. She would talk to Anna Marie of her belief that her mummy will come and save me, and often antagonized Rose. When Rose was yelling at her and berating her, she would say things like, my real

I was just about to ask if Rena kept coming back.

Yes, Serena kept coming back, And while Fred was in prison, Rose said she's gone with Rena. Rose, Fred, nor her school friends or any neighbors ever saw Charmaine again.

Wow.

The same friend who saw her on the chair that day went around, Sorry, went around to see her friend Charmaine and was told by Rose quote, she's gone to live with her mother, and bloody good riddance. This is an eight year old girl. She's talking about awful. When her little sister Anna Marie asked why Rena hadn't taken her as well, she was told by Rose she wouldn't

Oh wow, it was.

I mean, I suppose what we would call here or would call now Commission housing, and it was an agreement. So to facilitate the sale of the house, they bought it from council, but they agreed to turn the upper two it was a three story home, like a very tall skinny you know those ones you see, a tall skinny home. The top two stories were turned into bedsits so they could house lodgers and borders and that would supplement the household.

Income that money would go.

I don't really understand how it was they Fred bought the home, but to facilitate the sale agreed to some sort of yeah, so they would have borders and lodgers living upstairs while the family lived downstairs with access through that garden. In June nineteen seventy two, Rose gave birth to another baby, girl named May June. It's spelled Mae, but yes, her name is May June.

June July. Yep. The sister's just a good name.

It's just a good just a good name. It's giving Northwest, it is.

Yeah.

Almost immediately after giving birth, Rose returned to sex work to make money on Fred's insistence, or not so much insistence but encouragement, and she regularly engaged in casual sex with male and female lodgers they had living at twenty five Cromwell Street, not always for money, but just for her benefit.

Right.

She was a very sexual person. Fred would also bring home people he encountered at work, either to pay Rose for sex or just to engage in sex. Fred often bragged that it didn't matter how many people Rose slept with, he was the only one that could truly satisfy her lovely Sure, babe, that's what they all say. Rose would beat and suffocate her sexual partners. She was very into dominate trex yeah BDSM Yeah. The brutality and violence in her sexual encounters became worse and more violent over time.

Yeah, Like, I almost laughed at myself.

How dorky that is writing equipment.

Bondage equipment, side toys, restraining devices, and explicit magazines and photographs that they would actually plaster around the house.

All right, Okay, I mean they had little girls as well. The room. Rose would conduct her sex work out of contained peapoles for Fred to watch even when he wasn't involved, and they had a baby monitor in the room for him to listen from other parts of the house. Rose had the only key to this room and kept it on a necklace she wore at all times. Rose also controlled the family's finances. Fred would give her his pay packet and she would decide where the money was spent,

Free fifty pounds each. Ah, that's terrified.

All the sexual charges were dropped because they were witnessed testimony only. I think that she had physical bruises, so that they were kind of charged with low level physicality and fined. And so life went on in the West household. So that was nineteen seventy three. By nineteen eighty three, Rose had given birth to eight children.

Sorry, so what what years.

Is eighty three? So in ten years?

Ten years? Okay, we're right, Okay, yeah, the one year old, Like.

I know your mouth's is yeah, okay, octopus, that's eight legs, not eight babies.

Some sort of reference. I wanted to bring up octorpus in this episode.

You've bit there with a we look on your face. You've been trying to bring up an octopus. Bring up, you heard the word eight?

Of course? Is it a buzzer? Of course?

If I really like the idea that maybe octopi can have eight babies in a year, and you've unwittingly please call in right now. Will wait and tell us where a baker's does and octopus babies? Oh Jesus, all right. So, by nineteen eighty three, Rose West had given birth to eight children, at least three of whom were conceived by her clients. Not fair, Fred willingly accepted all of the children as his own, telling those with different skin tones

That's that's so crazy.

Isn't it disgusting? It's okay, I'm sorry, I just.

Can you cut that.

I did that, but with my mouth closed it would be quiet, but then I decided to speak.

I'm so sorry that I spoke.

I even interrupt myself if that makes you, I interrupt. Oh my god, that's so horrible. I'm so sorry. Okay. Two of the West children, Heather so that Heather was the eldest to Fred and Rose biologically and the eldest boy, Steven, both ran away from home at one point, but each returned after sleeping rough for several weeks. They were both badly beaten upon their return. Between nineteen seventy two and nineteen.

Ninety two, nineteen ninety two.

Yep, so over the twenty years. Over twenty year is essentially from when Rose was involved in Fred's life. The West children were admitted to emergency thirty one times.

Oh my god.

How many of these thirty one would you think were reported to social services?

Well, I would say all of them should be. Yes, again, thirty thirty of them were none.

Not a single incident the child from this household presenting to accident an emergency was ever reported to social services. They were all described by the parents as accidents, you know, they'd fallen off the monkey bars, they tripped over their sister's foot, whatever it may be. Not one was ever reported to social.

The monkey bar is a thing that's is that everywhere?

Monkey bars are monkey bars everywhere?

Yeah?

Can you see any monkey bars in the room right now?

No monkey bars and monkey bars Australian or an Australian or.

Is it everywhere everywhere? But do you mean this is the term Australian? Yeah, I don't.

Know monkey bars. Let me have a look up this right now. Just monkey bars, I don't think so.

I think that's just what they're called.

Yeah, I'd be interested to know if that's if monkey bars are everywhere? Or if they're just kind of what do you think.

It would be called, like a horizontal ladder?

It's a horizontal That's exactly what it is. So it's horizontal ladder.

So if you don't know what we're talking about, bars, are I think they called monkeys?

Okay, great, please right in. I'd love to know.

It's kind of It is funny if they're not monkey bars and people like what even Fred occasionally became the recipient of his wife's violence. On one occasion in nineteen seventy four, Rose chased after Fred with a carving knife in her hand. Fred was unable to slam shut the door of the room. Oh sorry, He was able to slam shut the door of the room in which he'd run, and Rose lunged at him with the knife, but he closed the door just in time, and the knife embedded itself in the door.

Oh my god.

Three of Rose's fingers slid down the blade, almost severing them from her hand. She calmly wrapped her hand in a tea towel and said, look what you've done, fella. You've got to take me to the hospital now. Oh like, if he had noted on the door, she would have literally plunged the knife into him. That's just one example that I've There was also a lot of sexual abuse

I think in a lot of cases as well. I don't know if this is a common thing, but you know kids who are abused, kids who faced a lot of violence in the home often wouldn't talk about that sort of stuff.

Well, that is permeates this entire story.

I kind of feel a lot of shame as well.

I'm sure, of course, her parents did not file a missing persons report. Over the coming years, when the kids played up, the family would joke, if you don't behave, you're going to end up under the patio like your sister.

Ha.

Five years after Heather ran away in nineteen ninety two, one of the younger West children who was named whose name, who is aged thirteen. She was named by media as Louise, but because she was under age, this was a pseudonym, so you don't actually know what her name was, but will call her Louise. She was thirteen and she told a friend one day she was being sexually abused at home. This friend told her that she should tell some teachers.

Wow, she did, and.

The school notified social services and police, who interviewed Louise without her parents' knowledge, and she confirmed and reiterated the allegations opened a formal investigation. Police searched the West household on the pretext of searching for stolen property, so they said, especially when he was so known for. Of course, in the house they found numerous objects of sexual paraphernalia, including ninety nine pornographic videos of both homemade and commercial nature.

Oh my god.

The children were removed from the home and both parents were arrested on child cruelty charges. The children gave statements of years of physical and sexual abuse, and all in each of their stories were consistent. While these crimes were being uninvestigated, something else came up. One of the children was unaccounted for. Police discovered that Heather running away in

Oh my god.

The younger children who were under sixteen remained in foster care, but Fred and Rose were allowed to return to twenty five Cromwell Street, as were their children who were over sixteen. The younger children were also allowed supervise visits at the house, but police were not going to let the mystery of

When do you think about it, as Wollock, so much time has passed since he was committing thefts, and you know, like there was so much that it happened in that time.

It's a lot of this story is a lot argued about them very much falling through the cracks, very much. This was a worrying couple for many, many, many reasons. And yeah, they really didn't fall through the cracks. Due to the children's reports of the family Invertedcoma's joke that Heather was under the patio. This is where police first brought in.

Like ground, I mean ground.

I know all about forklifts and stuff, but some kind of ground trading, well not even quite some kind of machinery that like, because the patio is concrete. They kind of did something and they found that there was disturbed soil under the concrete patio. The patio had been laid by Fred in nineteen eighty seven. Do you remember what your Heather went ran away?

Oh?

Okay, So, when asked what they might find under the patio if they were to excavate, Fred confessed to killing Heather in an act of manslaughter. He said during a fight they'd had He had gone into a fit of rage and strangled and accidentally killed his daughter.

Now's that means because accidental? Oh? Yes, right.

He had cut up her body with a large knife and stored her remains in a dust bin as he waited for an opportunity to dig her grave. This is what he told Pa. He was insistent Rose had no idea that it had happened at all. When it happened, he said, she was preoccupied with a client upstairs. He told Rose she had run away, which she had always believed.

Wow. Was he in custody at this point?

Yes, so he had. It was February twenty five, that they had gone to the house with the warrant and said, what might we you know, where's Heather? What might be fine if we looked under the patio and he said, okay.

Phrase that they use, Oh might we find we're fine exactly.

So then yes, he was brought into custody. He said, yeah, look this happened. I strangled her. I buried her in the back garden. No one else in the family knew about it. He said, I'll take you to the house and I'll sherw exactly where her body will be found. There were signs that she had been tortured prior to her death, and multiple finger bones were missing, which were

Thigh bones, yes, or beakers?

Three are bakers?

Two beakers? Two? Fuck, I haven't got it yet, I'll get it.

One, We'll get it. They asked Fred why they may have found three thigh bones, to which he immediately said there were two further sets of human remains in his garden. He agreed to return to twenty five Cromwell Street to reveal the locations of both of those graves. He said one was a girl named Shirley Robertson, a former tenant who had been heavily pregnant with his child at the time of her murder in nineteen seventy eight.

Oh my god.

The other victim he described as being quote Shirley's mate, which turned out but he either would not or could not elaborate as to her identity beyond that. Both sets of remains were discovered on the twenty eighth of February, and Fred was charged with both of those murders as well. Two days later, having discovered three sets of human remains in the garden, a decision was made to thoroughly search the entire property. Rose was placed in a safe house

Wow.

Most of these victims Fred claimed had been hitchhikers or girls who had been lodging with them, who he had murdered in the nineteen seventies after picking them up a bus stops right. Initially, Fred claimed these victims had been killed when they had threatened to inform Rows of his infidelity, and that he had transported their bodies to Cromwell Street

Now.

The dismemberment, Fred claimed was only to make it easier to bury the remains in shallow graves, and he again agreed to return with police to Cromwell Street to indicate precisely where he'd buried each victim. Right between March five and March eight, police found six further bodies of young females at twenty five Cromwell Street.

Wow.

Each victim had been extensively mutilated, and each body bore evidence of having been subjected to extreme abuse prior to their deathsh God. Each set of remains was missing numerous bones, particularly finger bones. When questioned Fred refused to divulge the whereabouts of the bones missing from each of the set of remains all the reason for their absence. It's been speculated he kept them somewhere as trophies, but it's not known where they went.

So it's kind of just kind of he's kind of bragging about it in a way and going, this is what I did. This is what I did. But he's not giving away everything.

In the documentary, which I refused to tell you about until the end of this episode, there is actually vision of him with police walking through the backyard. It doesn't feel like bragging. I'm not a psychologist. I'm certainly not a criminal psychologist. It doesn't feel to me like bragging.

It is.

Uh, he's kind of stone cold, No, not even a stone cold. He's emotionless. It feels a bit like, well, I'm found out now, I've got nothing left. I've got nothing to lose in telling them it's just yep, there, that's where your phone part. Yep, that's where you'll find.

That is something to lose. If he's not giving away everything like he's not. He's not talking about everything. He's not like, oh the fingers are there, like it feels like he is holding something back.

Yes, it's I think more when I'm probably arguing, is that is the term bragging. He's not going, you know, well, oh my god, you think I only killed Heather. I actually heaps more than that. It's not that, it's more, and he doesn't give it up really willingly. It reminds me a little bit of Dennis nils Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, where they police questioned him and he was like, yeah, yeah there was another one actually yeah, yeah, actually no,

That, yes, okay, but he was like, you know, Dennis Nilsen just went, you know, look at the look in the in my in my living room, in the tea cups and look in the you know, and was like, oh my god, yeah, whatever it was.

Whereas Fred West remembered where all the bodies were, but didn't either didn't remember, didn't give up a lot of information about why or how he was. He was holding back details, but just said, yeah, there's a body here, Yep, there's a body there that's up at this bus stop,

Yeah, because if you're living in the house with someone that's dismembering bodies, that would take time.

Also, remember Heather ran away and she just kind of didn't seem to care, and then it turns out that actually Fred had killed her, Like really would a mother just never Yeah, there's also all those reports. Even though the chargers never went to court, all of the children had reported serious abuse by both Fred and Rose.

And the threat against Rena from yep, yep, from her as well, just saying, you know, like she did not want her there. Yep.

Rose West was arrested on the twentieth of April, so it's still nineteen ninety four, so it was the twenty fifth of February that Fred was first arrested. On the twentieth of April. Rose was arrested initially on offenses relating to physical and sexual assault of two children in the mid nineteen seventies, So that's what they had enough evidence to arrest her. The following day, she was a refused bail and she was transferred to a prison in the

Bear with me, trust me, okay, I'll trust you.

I was up until eleven thirty b finishing story and I started work at four thirty eight.

I don't always say to night to me, but he did message me not imagine everything, no silence, I've muted this story.

Aren't you working in five hours? Though?

When you messed me because I don't get up as early as you, and when you message me to say, because I'm an idol, you know that?

And who is it night ol? Who?

That's something like that? Working on? But yeah, you you messaged me very.

Late last night because I was like, we can record these episode tomorrow. I've finished.

You've been sick, and I was like, oh my god, why are you still up because you're to be at work at four?

Don't you start work at five thirty? And I said no, this week.

I started four thirty and so, yeah, so you finished this very late last night because you've been sick for the last couple of weeks and I record an episode with your Crasy last week as a feeling Christie, your Christie, and so you're coming back to record this episode. So you've stayed up so late last night to do this. So you just got hooked. And really it fell into this last night.

Yes, Slash, I needed to finish it. I'd been working on it in little dribs and drabs because it's so like, it's such a big story and it's so intense. And then I was like, right, I'm recording this. I need to get this in finished because I need to get this out of my life. I need to fit. I need to not be thinking about this heinous couple every day.

I need to get this out drips and drabs, f y. I what bakers call dough that they throw away?

Oh? Is that says that how bad bakes?

Does?

It says that I never knew that.

You're learning a lot today. It's your favorite treat from bakers to light?

Oh God, I would love a near the Hawaiian pizza kind of scroll. Thing is a scroll like the role the white making rolls make to your favorite. You might scroll, obviously, cheese, am I sorry? Cheesy mite scroll? Oh my god, by's so ozzie. Right now for overseas listeners, there is.

A white bread roll that has cheese and veggiemie. It's so good baked into it and it is Did.

You get lots of staff discounts or you like?

No, no, no, no, no, baby dog staff that's what them. Oh my god, someone never still hot? My god, now's no staff discounts sm Me Peterson at the end of each day for health and safety reasons, trips and traps.

I can tell you you could.

No longer sell the leftovers the next day. So guess what the staff got to take on. Yes, exactly as you said, Yes, yeah, exactly. I was very popular in my neighborhood. Was working there.

All right.

By May nineteen ninety four, Fred and Rose West were jointly charged with five counts of murder. Rose simply replied I'm innocent upon hearing each charge, a response that proved to be a theme throughout each of the forty six interviews investigators would hold with Rose prior to her trial. Prior to the trial forty six police interviews, she just said I'm innocent the whole time. Now we all know I'm no good at maths, But how is yours? You know that police had exhumed five bodies, and both Fred

Nine people, So that's not as many as nine.

Five less five is fewer than nine.

Well, baby doll, tell me what happened.

After the first five charges were laid, Fred ended up openly confessing to killing his first wife, Rena and his stepdaughter Charmaine. He also confessed to knowing the location of Anne mcfall's remains. Do you remember that name? It feels like eighteen years ago. I first started this the friend who stayed with Fred when Rena left back to Scotland. Anne McFall stayed, wanted to marry him, and was pregnant with his child when she went missing at eight months pregnant.

This kind of reminds me a lot of the Green River killer that just went back to these locations and just went, oh, there's another one there, there's another one, there's another one there.

Well, there were their bodies that they eximmed from twenty five Cromwell Street, and then there were bodies that were before they before he lived at twenty five Cromwell Street. Eventually, Fred West was formerly charged with twelve murders.

Wow, and Rose with ten. Oh my god, So.

Who were these women and girls? This sounds like what he is a horrendous sentence to say.

But I'm going to gonous.

Yes, I'm going to go through the victims in chronological order, which is never something that should be said.

No.

Anne McFall is believed to have been Fred's first victim before he ever met Rose. As we've discussed, she was a teenager in a relationship with Fred and pregnant when she apparently decided to leave him one day in May nineteen sixty seven. She was the friend So nineen sixty seven.

He's quite young, then, isn't he?

He was in his twenties.

Yeah okay, yeah, yeah yeah.

Also remember this when this is happening. So all the changes were laid in nineteen ninety four.

Yeah yeah wow.

So yep. She was a friend of Fred and Rina's first nanny Issa. Fred never admitted to Ann's murder, however, didn't know where her remains were, which seems fishy to meet. Her remains and those of her of their unborn baby were found in a field at Kempley, which is near Fred West's home village where he grew up in the place name I famously can pronounce very easily, Heredfordshire.

I'm just covering allay.

It's really good. No, but how you said it sounded like you were just making a noise both. Charmain West was Fred's stepdaughter, the first of his children. Rose hated Charmain the whole time she was in the little girl's life. Charmaine was last seen on that final visit to Fred in prison on June fifteenth, nineteen seventy one. She was killed sometime between that date and Fred's release on June twenty four. She was killed by Rose alone, who stowed her body in the cellar of their home until Fred

So we know this because of the timings that Fred could not have done it, but she had done it and had stowed her until Fred was released and the concert.

Yeah, so when Fred confessed to remember, he ended up confessing to Charmain's dead. He said that he had killed her, and we will go into this. So he said he killed her and where he had buried her, which was in the back close to the back door of the flat before twenty five Cromwell Street.

Right, Okay, sure, it's in a different house. So did he go to this place where to another house where people were now living and pointing out that there were bodies there? Oh my god.

And I haven't written this in here because I thought it was too awful, but I'm going to say it just because he brought that up. He was insistent that he had not dismembered Charmain. Her body, though, was found in parts, but this is believed to be from when new owners of the house had done developments to the house and a new wall that like and kind of stumpings that have been put in had actually severed her body. Oh wow, Charmaine was eight years old.

Oh my god.

Rena, whose name was actually Catherine Costello but went by Rena, was Fred's first wife and Charmaine and Anne Marie's mother. She was last reported seen alive in August nineteen seventy one. Remember it was June nineteen seventy one that Charmaine was killed. Rena had been growing extremely anxious about her children's welfare.

My god.

Linda Goff was the couple's first known murder together. That's Fred and Rose West. She lived in Gloucester and was friendly with a number of lodgers at twenty five Cromwell Street. She ended up moving in there herself, leaving a note for her parents saying not to worry about her she'd found a new flat and she would come home to visit, but when she didn't, her parents tracked down the address and went to see her, to be told at the door by Rose West that Linda had actually moved elsewhere.

Yeah, and he was, for some reason trying to protect Rose out of everything as well.

He protected her right up until the.

Land when he learned that.

That she was betraying him. I don't know why he decided to implicate her then. Maybe it was for some religious reason of his own. I don't know what that could have been, because it kind of felt like, oh, he's gone, well fuck you then than this suicide note. He loved her. His suicide note was a letter to her. So after his death, Rose West therefore faced trial on

So it's just it was this huge news everywhere at the time.

Huge huge. Can you imagine one day a man is arrested, he takes police to his backyard of his home he lived with his I think it's ten children, and they dig up five bodies in that backyard, and then more and more and more appear over time.

Yeah, just keeps omitting to more huge.

And this was nineteen ninety four, it came out, right, So the first murder that we know was in nineteen sixty seven, but it was only nineteen ninety four that came out, like that's in our.

Yeah, yeah, lifetime.

Right.

Yeah, it was huge news.

So the defense tried to argue that witnesses that came forward and people were selling their stories just to kind of be part of this big salacious tabloid head. And here as well, where I will bring back up the seventeen year old girl called Caroline Owens. Remember she was abducted and raped and tortured, and that was the case I said could have in a sliding doors moment, landed

My fault, this poor, how horrible girl.

So I've included that in there to say we've called it a sliding doors moment. She has lived with that thinking what if I had testified like it is just the most awful, awful thought. And this poor girl, who's a woman at this point, testified on the stand. She went through all of that to make sure Rose West was put away and she accepted a payment to tell her story and her story only, and that was used against her in the core. I swear to God. Defense lawyers for people as guilty as this have real a

A social worker.

Yes, yep, yep. Through this role, Fred and Janet grew quite a close bond, and Fred really grew to trust her and treat her as a confidant. She testified to the court that prior to his arrest, he and Rose had formed a pact whereby if they were ever caught, Fred would take full responsibility for all of the murders, many of which he had privately described to Janet as being quote some of Rose's mistakes.

Wow.

After a seven week trial, a jury unanimously found Rosemary West guilty of all charges.

Unanimously, nanimously of all of them, ten charges for her yes.

Ten murder charges. There were also charges of sexual abuse and child just as Charles Mantel described Rose's crimes as appalling and depraved and noted strongly that it didn't matter whose hand had struck the fatal blow, that the involvement in any murders of this magnitude made a person guilty

Yeah, yeah, how much just from the volume available.

If there were. I actually don't think the documentary even went into the true horrors, the true horrors, the sexual abuse, the way in which the women were killed, the things found with their bodies that suggested that the abuse that had gone on. And I mean, I've read and listened to things about this that have been put out there in the media, and I'm just horrified and disturbed. These jury went through seven weeks of all of the evidence could be given. Ye aged forty one, Rosemary West was

Absolutely.

It has long been speculated that Fred, either alone or with Rose, committed many more murders. Fred even telling he is appropriate adult Janet that he had planned to reveal the location of one more body per year for the rest of his life, but he inevitably took his own life before he revealed anymore.

Wow.

We will never know the entire truth, but what we do know is that the absolute monsters who are or were Fred and Rosemary West will never be able to hurt another person again, and that, somehow unbelievably is a brief overview of the heinous crimes of I'm going to call them because I hope they are and will be history's worst married couple.

Yeah, yeah, thank you for that story. I mean, like you know it. It is such an awful, awful case. And I remember seeing that documentary on Netflix and going, this is awful. And I hadn't heard of these two before, and I've brought.

Them up in numerous epases where we've said, kind of in passing we've been talking about like Folly Adure, and we've kind of said in passing it, oh, like Fred and Rosemary West, and like the House of horrors and twenty five Cromwell Streets kind of known. And I think a lot of people, especially a lot of you know, true crime listeners, people who are you know, I was going to see involved in, hopefully not involved in interested in. Yep, have heard of Fred and Rosemary West. I think everyone

Yeah, well, jail at the time exactly.

That you know, whether he's groomed her into being an aggressor, she was one and continued that way for twenty years. She never turned around and said, you know, Fred talked me into this. Fred groom me. Now I'm out of his I'm not under his spell anymore. I can say this. She just denied ever having any involvement, which she clearly did. I find it very difficult to side, I suppose, I don't want to hear side with the discourse or the argument that she may have been a victim herself. Maybe

From me does Does it remind you a little bit of the David and Katherine Bernie.

No, I mean yes, sorry, yes, obviously that they're a married couple, David and Katherine Bernie, I felt.

More Leniencia, right, Okay.

That to me felt a bit more like a grooming situation. I think the the fact that Fred and Rose West's crimes went on for decades, and that there are multiple reports that Rose was the more aggressive of the two, makes it really hard for me to see any or find any Yeah.

Sure, yeah, but that's God.

That's coming from a place of extreme and great grateful privilege that I've obviously not been in a situation anywhere near that, you know, being groomed and being in in an upbringing where you may find yourself in that position. So I very much, you know, caveat that with coming from a place of privilege, but I find it very very difficult to find to find myself leaning it all towards a place of feeling like she wasn't extremely composed and guilty.

In Yes, I would love to see some sort of like you knows, psychiatrist or someone going this is the mental state of someone during that time, because those two like just monsters, yes, you know, and would be you know, you know in terms of the TV show Monsters with I Murphy, they would be I would think up there in terms of the next oh yeah, they could do like you know that Ryan Murphy could do about them,

I think one thing for me is that Rose killing Charmain on her own was really early in the peace. That was nineteen seventy one, So I've closed the document I think nineteen seventy.

One four or maybe early seventies.

That was like when they just kind of got together. Yeah, I mean I don't Again, I don't know the psychology about grooming and everything, but it's not to suggest that, you know, there'd been years of where he'd been slowly ingratiating her into his you know, sick fantasies and sadism and masochism. She killed Charmaine on her own when he was in prison. Yeah, when Jamaine was only eight, Like, they don't have been together two years, and all of

No, no, no, not at all, just not saying that. But it's yeah, it is interesting that the conversations.

With people who go, but she was groomed, you know, yeah she did this, but she was groomed. She was a victim herself, And I just find it really difficult personally to feel that.

Yeah, for sure, what do you think? No, I you know, I think being fifteen years old, being like, you know, she's at a bus stop, she's had like, I don't know, there's something about her. It seems so you know, I don't even know what the word is, but not not right, like you know, like.

And then meeting him and saying like calling him revolting and disgusting, and.

Then met him and then all so hating and having a hatred for his ex and his life before her, and having that violence and that anger, Like you just wonder what this life was and what the where that stemmed from, because there has to be something other than.

I think Foliodur plays into it a lot of as well. We speaking about that before. Their concept that you know, that kind of crazy multiplied. You know, you get two people with the same wrong thoughts, bring them together, multiplies those thoughts because they're kind of feeding off each other. This is a big case of that big case of that.

Huge story. Thank you, g and thank you for doing it whill you're sick as well.

No no, no, no, no, thank you again. And thank you beautiful Joe Chrissy. I just kind of met between Joe Christian and Joe Crazy Christie for filling in for me when I was away. It's it's been a goddamn yet I really home twenty twenty six. No, I hope and believe, and I'm putting out into the universe twenty twenty six. I'm going to be just so much more well and come and prepared and come that's the word I'm looking at.

It's going to be yeah. And I'm going to be doing this podcast over the Christmas break well, We're going to keep your company all over the Christmas holidays. We're going to have some Christmas themed shows. We have a really nice time.

We're going to keep going because you know what. I have been a big podcast fan for many, many years, and I work in an industry that does not have Christmas off, and I still drive to work every day, not Christmas Day, don't you know. I'm not playing my little not playing mini violin here but over when a lot of other people have. That's funny, Yeah, Christmas break off. I'm still driving to work wanting to put on my favorite podcast in the morning.

I'm really annoys.

Me when they all take breaks. So we've gone, well, it annoys us as listeners when our favorite shows aren't releasing episodes. So we're going to do it.

Fault you the first year doing the podcast. We want to keep going and want to keep bringing you the stories.

We just like really want you to be obsessed with us if you're still here. This is such a long episode, but hey, maybe this is the new rule. If we have to take a week off, whether it be for sickness or a cruise in the Caribbean, we have to come back with like a double lengths to make up for it.

And Joel Christy, I will say so. Joel came into the episode. Joel, as he messaged me on his way here, said, gaze always run late. So then Joel was like half an hour late, had to be at work, which is a national.

Radio, live radio, live radio.

So Joel's having a having a lovely time after we finished. So during the recording, I said to Joel, hey, this is my place. I was like, Joel, do you need to go? And Joel said, splash more shard, I've got ten more minutes, right, So we did. We did the rest of the podcast. Then I was like, we haven't got a lot of facts here, so I'll come back and do it after. I did my own recording after that.

And it was just so how many minutes after he initially said ten minutes, it was.

About forty minutes. And so then Joel goes a splash more shardonnay. I love him, And so then was running and then looked at the time and went, oh, I'm gonna be in so much trouble for like running lap to work and everything. I was like, it's fine, it's fine. And anyway, and then after it was on the way out, so I had to come back. I have to come back. I've had so many more stories to tell, So Joel's one of those people that has to come back sometime soon.

Oh, you know, the only people in the whole world who are better than our guests. Right. Oh, we love you, We.

Love you, and we'll be back with the mail bag section in just air more.

Yeah, We're gonna make it a short one because you guys are like you feel like we've all aged in this episode.

Absolutely apart from Diggs, who is sitting with me right now looking so gorgeous.

It's just a little baby.

We're back after this. Hey there, everybody. We just had a quick break because we needed a break after this week's episode.

I know I've had like a break from the podcast from being sick, but I feel like this has made me sick in the head this week as well. Don't worry, I'm not going to take another break from the podcast. I'll do the next couple of episodes. I love you, Sammy and I love all of our listeners and I'm here for you always. Please read me the letters to well.

The first one I'm not going to read to you, but I'm going to let Brook speak for her. Goddamn Sammy and Georgia.

It's Brook here.

I've been a long time listener of the podcast, along with your two Drunkards and previously Confessions where I first got to listen to Sammy and understanding his weekned sense of humor. We got to a lot of lockdowns with that content and took my friends when we got out of all the Melbourne lockdowns to the Comedy Republic to see a show.

Didn't pre warn them of anything. It was best night of their lives.

It was. It was absolutely amazing. Thank you for that.

Thank you.

The other thing that happened was I came home one day and looked up at the balcony across from.

Here and went, it's Missy Diggins.

So by some pure like fate, Sammy ended up in my building.

I play it cool for quite some time, and who.

Has absolutely loved comedy in Melbourne, so randomly seeing a comedian or personally through the courtyard and just playing a cool The other thing I had to play it cool with Was that Sam you mentioned on this podcast once that he thought that we could have an only murders in the building kind of situation with Rewindow and what we could probably see each other's last As much as I would love to be.

Part of the podcast, maybe not in that kind of being character anything, but I love the sentiment and love the pod. Thanks guys for making it.

God Brook, that is hilarious. So many times on this podcast we've spoken about so the listeners know you have since moved house, since living in that building that Brook is talking about. I assume because you can't see any of the balconies from your new place. Oh my god, Sorry, did I just docks? You docks all of the buildings in Melbourne. You can't say another balcony're from. We'd spoken about from your old apartment, how.

You can see all the values everyone everyone's apartments.

And that whole time one of your neighbors.

Knew you and good seeing you do we meet Brookbrook?

That is amazing.

Oh my god.

Also, what is with that building? There are not that many parliments in it, but one of your neighbors I ran into in the courtyard as well, you was the person who gave me my very first job in Tellivision.

Yeah, yeah, that's incredible.

I feel now, Brook, this is isn't it. I feel quite good that you moved out of that place. There are a bit too many, too many connections windows in the building too quickly.

That is hilarious that you saw Digs and you Digs instantly. He would have love that. I'm sure you spoke to him. He'd absolutely love that, Brook. But it's so funny as well, because I was in the dog park behind like you were, our walk Diggs regularly, and someone the other day was like, oh my god, Digs stop it. Yeah and recognized Diggs and he was very excited to get to know them.

Sammy. That's super weird, super weird. But you lived there, That is amazing.

Look, I hope we had a conversation in that time as well. I hope that we were running towards that that huge gate that always broke down so many times.

And also, you've said famously on this podcast many times you now lived two hundred meters from your old play. I know you don't even.

Worry about it. The next one comes from our good friend Melanie.

Hello, Sammy, and Georgia. This is Melanie, and I'm a huge fan of the podcast and an even bigger fan of the two of you. I love how you tell a story. It's like we're all just mates listening in.

So thank you.

Also for telling true crime in a way that doesn't leave me with that icky, anxious feeling that most other crime stories do. But I mean, we love to listen to them, don't we, So thank you for that keeping me entertained when I'm cleaning, driving, cooking all the things I do. I'm in the middle of listening to your latest episode with Myth, and so many moments got me

Artist too, So.

Yeah, you just bring back some great memories. Drop that every now and then, so it feels like a dream life now. But now that we've both mentioned to club Med a few times in the podcast, maybe they will sponsor us to go together on vacation.

I think it would be so.

Much fun just putting it out there anyway. Love you work guys, and yeah again, thanks for tying such wonderful.

Entertaining, horrendous stories you cut out there.

Oh my god, Melanie, No, no, no, I can't tell you.

I can't tell you.

Anyone who has been even just on a club Med holiday in their lives will know. It is like there is something about clubmates. As soon as you hear about someone else going to club Med, let alone working our clement as a geo, there is like I'm obsessed, Melanie. Please message me immediately. I need to know where you worked, which village you work when I was also artists a clubment as well. Oh my god, Melanie, please message me who taught.

You to betist club Med? But like someone just randomly there taught you.

Club Med is a result chain people who don't know, and some of the result loatus like the White Lotus, Less murder more Circus, which is the name of my memoir. Some of the resorts have a flying trapeze as like an active can do. So my family used to go on club Med holidays growing up, so I learned the trapeze over time going on holidays. Then I got a job working at the only Australian club Med on Linderman

Like?

How why do you have so many careers? Where of these come from? Melanie? Please measure me. I'm desperate to know which club man he worked down queen and with who? Because with whom? Because like, oh my god, oh my god.

Sorry, well because I remember once in a talent show my parents we didn't enter retalent show. But my parents once took us to like a on a family vacation, I think in Queensland and.

Tell me you went to lindom And Island. I will lose my sho.

No, but mum drank a bit of linderman beIN sixty five. But but yeah, we were like we were. At one point I got up with my brother and did Don't Blame It on the Sunshine.

That was one of the club med songs.

Sorry, was it on the book? Was it? Michael Jackson checks and five Jackson five? Yeah, and did that and it was just like like a quick like when got up like that and then like that and it was just like a like a quick little the wiggles, like the are you saying that?

The two of you got up and did.

That like for a talent show made okay. It wasn't like were rehearsed it don't need to.

It wasn't like the whole like people were on stage doing it and you were copying them. No, oh my god, I I thought we were going to have a relation that you've been on Holiday Club mean before.

No, we entered a talent show.

To do that that I need to see footage of yeah.

How long.

Oh, we would have been about like twenty twenty one. No, no, we would have been. We would have been we would have been like I know, like he's a year older than me. I reckon like six and seven. Oh god, me and my friend Davin we did tap dancing together. You've met Davin and we got footage of me and him doing tap dancing together to the song My Boy Lollipop, and that was the song that went.

I'm sorry we have to finished the episode here because I cannot deal with that real way too.

Cute recommendations because I've already mentioned this once on the podcast before, but why is crackodcast?

I wanted to bring it up because you recommended it. I listened to it, loved I don't know why not.

Everyone is talking incredible wise Crack absolutely incredible. It's kind of like a baby Reindeer esque vibe. Stick with it because I think when you first listen to it, you don't know how amazing it's going to be, so stick with it.

It's one of those ones, is what I loved about it. I kept thinking different things, like I found myself being on different sides and thinking it was going to evolved, Oh, I.

Really like Yeah. And the other one is Bethstead, which is really interesting.

Everyone's talking about it at the moment. I feel like we can't really say much about that without giving anything. Just listen to it.

It's, you know, not fascinating.

It's someone's real life story about something they've gone through unwillingly via a podcast. As in, they've lived this because of a podcast, and now they've done a podcast about it.

Yes, yeah, so yeah, So listen to those two great recommendations. Also, g Love has just finished her podcast are Everyone Has an X?

Took a long time. I finished it. I have finished the most recent scenes. It will be back. Everyone Has an X. There are seven seasons now available, ten episodes each season. Every story is a different standalone story, someone's story about their ex. Some of them are crime based, some of them are about the breakups. Some of them are about grief and prison and catfishing. Catfishing.

Yeah, you and I are going to have a great week because you and I are going to see Genevieve Morris in a play this week. We're also seeing Alan Davies, the great British comedian, this Saturday night, which we're very excited about.

It, and I'm putting up my Christmas treet on Sunday morning.

Now we goddamn Christmas tree. Thank you was always everybody for leaving five star reviews, five star ratings. You have to do that right now and whatever app you're on, the more you do that, the more we can keep doing this goddamn podcast. Another way is simply sharing this podcast with a friend also writing to me at Sammy at just Another company dot com dot au.

Please let us know if you have listened to this entire episode in one sitting without pressing.

Pause even once even and if you have.

Please sit us a selfie of your bloodshot eyes. Yeah, and I hope you don't have to work at four today tomorrow morning. Oh my god. We love you so much. Thank you for listening to our husky voice for so long. Thank you Sammy and Joel for covering for me while I was sick. Thank you all for just being like beautiful. And thank you for to Jonathan Bailey for existing and for one day in the future marrying me. Okay, love you, Bye bye,