Andrew Fraser is a name you might remember if you're a longtime listener of Nonother Crime podcast, or if you just listened to the Peter Dubass episode. Now, in that episode, I mentioned that the man who eventually took down serial murderer Peter du Pass for his third life sentence was once a prominent lawyer. This is his story, dum. It is a tale of a man who flew too close to the sun, a man who was once one of, if not the top, or certainly most notorious criminal defense
lawyers in Melbourne. Oh wow, and how Andrew Fraser ended up behind bars himself to be the one to whom Peter du Pass would confess. Wow? How much do you know about this story?
I don't know anything about this. It's apart from what you already told me, you know in the PAS episode.
That's what you call a little teas Ah.
You call it a little teas Hey there, everybody, welcome to Not Another Crime Podcast. I'm Georgia Love, I'm Sammy Peterson. I'm a journalist, I am not and I do you know what if you'll just skip ahead and listen to the story, all you have to do is go to the show notes and look at the time stamp. You'll find all you need.
That's right, But we do have a crime update before we do, if you want to hang around for that. There has been an update in the Deisi Freeman search. Yes, so you did the story on that. This is the fifty six year old sovereign citizen who is suspected of being the person who shot dead two police officers por Punker in Regional Victoria in August of this year, twenty five.
He took off into the bush that day after shooting three police officers, two of them fatally, and hasn't been seen since nowadays.
It's been such a long time months.
And not a single sighting of him. Police have been searching for him ever since. They have conducted a number of really targeted searchers in certain areas, and just a couple of days ago they released a statement that they had conducted a five day targeted search of an area of less than one square kilometer of dense bushland on
Mount Buffalo, which is near Paupunka. They had the specialized search teams, detectives, search and rescue and cadaver dogs and they confirmed that they were in this case searching for his.
Remains, So I guess enough time has passed that they're now going Well, who knows what happened he is Probably we.
Don't reason why they're searching. They've said they're searching for his remains and should sap top. They didn't find anything, so there's still no site of him or remains or anything. Now we don't and probably will never or may never know why they have moved on to the search for
remains and why that specific area very much. My own hypothesis is to think if they were searching a very specific area and have now because they've searched that specific spot before and they said at the time they were looking for an armed potential shooter. Yep, this time they've
said they were looking for his body. It seems to me they've somehow got intelligence that whether it is that he has said said to someone in the past, if I were ever to know go and off myself, I would do it here, whether maybe he'd been sighted there or heard there and not since. But for whatever reason that we may never know, that specific area is where they believe his remains to and they still weren't able
to find anything. Now this area for anyone going what do you mean, Like, how could they not have a five days searching a specific area with kadava dogs. But it is dance dance dance bushland. There are a lot of like underground kind of caves, really hilly mountainous areas. Like he really he could be anywhere. He could have gone deep into a cave and taken his own life. He could have you know, been taken by the wild animals or anything. But yeah, they did confirm they're looking for his body.
Have you ever heard like a man hunt like that before for someone that's just never been found, Like a man hunt for someone I can't remember anything where it's been like a man hunt for someone that did something like that, you know, who allegedly did something like this and then just hasn't been found. It seems so nuts for someone.
I mean, the ones I can the only ones I can think of. They I'm thinking of them because they then have been found. So Tony Mockbell, who was a very prominent person of the Melbourne Underground gangland War, which comes up in today's episode. He was on the run for many years and was found years later in Greece, like there are in the musical Yes in the musical Grease hiding in plain sight playing rizzo.
Yes so much. That's right, that's right.
There are worse things I could do. Tony Bockbell sings about his drug that's quite funny. There are lots of people. There was one I remember covering a couple of years ago. I remember covering it. I don't remember the details, but a man who had been on Australia's Most wanted list for like a decade or something like that was found hiding out in like a remote house in the Northern Territory or remote Queensland or something like. There are many, many,
many fugitives at any given time. This one is so prominent because he shot and killed two police officers, and sadly it sounds like, or it feels like, he may never be found, which is awful for everyone involved. It is so horrendous in the true meaning of the word, for those police officers, families, for all their colleagues, that they can't get justice for that, that they're not seeing someone taken down for that. It's just awful in every way.
Well, even like this year, there was talk of a man who had gone on the run with he'd taken two of his kids and New Zealand and they've been missing for something like four years or something.
Yeah, and they were found like living like camping out in the bush.
Yeah. Yeah, they shot him.
There's lots of cases violent fugitives as well.
That would be an interesting story to do it, something that would be all right, retract all of that more, go back contract all the time.
That would have sounded beautiful and everybody.
Everybody walking to not another Yeah, but it is so it is so interesting to look at the Desert Freeman case because just you know, we're probably not going to find out a lot of the information that you know, the police have been. I know that because I don't know if they were brought in the army because that was yes, they did, Oh they did, they did, because that was a big thing to actually escalate. There was.
I will have said the correct number in the episode we did, but I believe it was seven hundred or seven to nine hundred people actively searching for about two weeks before it was the search was scaled back a bit, but yeah, huge, huge, huge. There is still a one million dollar reward remaining for evidence that leads to a conviction for those officers debts, but it sounds like, I mean, it feels like a big thing for police to concede that they were looking for his remains even.
Absolutely well, thank you Jeeve for the update on Deisi Freeman.
And the only other crime update I have for you is guess what dropped on streaming service stan? Oh?
I saw I saw the death cart.
Two and three of the Aaron Patterson slash Mushroom Lady documentary on stan that One of our beautiful listeners messaged us today and said, the power of the pod. You two have obviously bullied them releasing them.
Yeah, we haven't watched them yet. He's called death caps or something, isn't it. It's like that. That's really interesting because it took such a long time for it hasn't really but I mean for a documentary, but it is interesting that it just came out now. Yeah. I'm fascinated to watch the next two parts of it too. There's only a three part series. Yeah, and they are making a TV show of the Mushroom Killers.
Follow here like they will always going.
Of course, of course it's already cast in everything.
I feel like they'll have to put it off for a while though, because she's been allowed to launch an appeal.
Yeah, yes, what does that mean that now she's got she she.
Has I think it's up to twelve months. Oh sorry, no, she has. She has log lodged an appeal with the Appeals Court of Victoria. We did, I can't remember which episode it. Well, sorry if you guys haven't heard that one yet. I spoke about it at the top of one of the episodes recently, about the grounds of the appeal that she is saying. She her lawyers are saying she should not have been found guilty.
Yeah.
Yeah, And so the appeals court has said, okay, yes, we'll hear that, and then the finding of that will depend whether she gets a retrail or anything like that. But it will probably take up to a year for just the hearing in the appeals court.
Yeah.
Wow, So mark my words, dear listeners, don't you worry your pretty little heads. We will bring you all the updates to that.
It's beautiful little heads, didn't she before we get into the episode today? How has your god?
You know it's been good.
I know it's been good.
Because I went to Tasmania. Who else went to Tasmania?
I went to Oh my god, we both went at the same time. Didn't see each other.
I heard you were there.
Refused to see each other off mine, refused to record anything there. We record an episode that you would have listened to already with the great great Elizabeth Lame from a podcast I'm hoping you've already listened to, called Beth's Dead. And we had to get up because of the LA time difference. We had to get up very early and do it. We were excited to do it anyway, but we actually had a big night to night before.
We had a few wines, a few wines with our friend Disco.
That's amazing to see disco.
It was amazing to see disco. Yeah, it was. It was a great time. I goddamn love Tasmania. I lived there for years and I visit often. But I realized I hadn't been down in a long time, so it was my first visit in a while, and I just loved it. The weather turned on for us. We stayed in a beautiful hotel called Crown Plaza, but we had delicious food. I went to work. I worked from the radio there. It was just fantastic. I was a bit depressed to come home.
Actually, well, that's nice. We went to the we went to the market, the Selamonka market. Of course, it was just the best. It was so good. I got Digs a beautiful toy.
How did that go? Tell the listeners?
Doesn't go too well. It was a B soft, too soft toy, which, if you've ever seen best in show, I call it the busy Bee because there's a whole, the whole through line of that is this dog, the dog obsessed. People that are overly obsessed with their dogs and believe that this dog owned the responds to his B busy bee toy and got Digs one of those from a toy shop that was for kids, and I the guy was very excited to sell it, probably thinking that I had.
A beautiful definitely think it was for a child.
Yeah, I definitely think it was for a child.
Can you tell me now? I want us to say it at the same time, so we'll see so the listener doesn't think we're exaggerating. I'll countdown three to one. But the question is how long after handing the toy over to Digs, had he ripped it ready? Three? Two?
One?
Twenty seconds?
Okay? Well yeah, well yeah, twenty seconds is immediately.
He ran over to his bed, with it in his mouth and immediately.
Yeah, did you think we're going to get the same then?
Well, like because if you'd said like twenty seconds, that would have sounded like an eager So the listener knows it's true. It was that quick.
If I sit you up and I went four hours, yeah.
You may have that kind of thing you would do.
Yeah, he ripped it apart. And he's got some great gin as well. Didn't you just gin?
We're having it right now. Yeah, it's from Taylor and something I can't with it, Taylor Swift. I think gin. There's so many gin and whiskey distilleries and it was so good. But there's this one that makes a honey gin. So it's infused with natural honey and it's so with the busy bear very tazzy was beautiful and I loved it. Did you love it?
Absolutely loved that A great time was there for two nights. It was just so so lovely the same time, you can't not enjoy Tasmania. I just love it.
And and the AFL football team for Tasmania was approved because they approved meil of the stadium. This is such local news. Sorry, yeah, but excited an af football team in their exciting Yeah excited?
Gee? Are you ready to get into this week's episode?
Are you? Because I've been teasing this story for ages. It's one of my favorite stories.
Yeah, and I've.
Been teasing it to you for a while. It is about Andrew Fraser, as you know from the intro. But the reason I've been You've been wanting me to do this for so long because I told you that David Wenham starred in a show about Andrew Fraser, and you love David Wenne but had not seen the show, and I've stopped you. I've banned you from watch the story on the pod. So I'm going to tell you the story today and then you can go and enjoy the Dawnam Show.
Yeah, and you also have to listen to the p to Do Pass episode where Andrew Craser is brought up in that episode.
That's right. Much to get through?
Much to get through. If you want to leave us an email, you can do that Sammy at Justnothercompany dot com dot au leave us a voicemail. All the links are in the show notes. We call it a speak pipe and we'll.
Play it on in our mail bag section at the end.
Of the podcast. Will leave a five star rating. Leave a five star review. The more you review, the more you rate the podcast, the more the algorithm boosts it and we get out there to more people.
Oh yeah, and you can follow us on Instagram and tik dot plaars at not another crime podcast.
Oh my god, let's get into this week's episode.
Let's do it. Andrew Roderick Fraser was born in nineteen fifty one to a comfortable middle class family in Melbourne, Australia.
And Roderick as well. That's such an interesting name, isn't it.
It feels very kind of old English. Yeah, family name. He went to Wesley College and went on to marry and have two children.
So Wesley College is quite a fancy school in Melbourne, isn't it very expensive?
Yeah? It's a private grammar school.
Yeah yeah, with.
Boys and girls. He was a good student, but not a great one. He was one of those kids who was naturally clever, but he didn't put in a whole heap of work. Sure, he loved an argument, so becoming a lawyer seems to fit absolutely. He also really loved
the idea of money, and in particular having lots of it. Sure, he was described by the script writer on what would later become a TV series about his life as being a man with a strong streak of narcissism, he was drawn to the law because it was a fast track to social and financial success.
Wow, okay, were his parents lawyers or anything as well?
I didn't find anything on what his parents did, but they were well off enough that the kids went to private school.
They were the Wiggles, that's.
Right, their time before they gave birth in nineteen fifty one.
Beautiful.
Now, he obviously did get into law, because that's where this story is going, but he only passed by one percent. You know, a pass is a pass. But just to how far he gets in law and how prominent he was, it's interesting that he just scraped through.
Is that like ninety like you know something that people were quite high to get into.
Law, to get into yeah, exactly. Now, his teachers and classmates probably didn't expect him to go on to become the big name in law that he inevitably would, all right. One thing he did have in spades was doggedness. He treated every client as the most important client he could or would ever have, and made sure he was available to them at any and every moment they might want him.
That's a pretty good It's a good quality to have in someone.
It was very much. He was like, I mean, I'll do anything to make the most money that I can. So if I'm the most available, the more people will hire me. I will work.
Now.
This is how he became so popular and yes, very very wealthy. He would turn up to court to represent the pits of society. His words, not mine. He was truly representing some heinous people in a Mercedes Benz convertible at first, later to be replaced.
By a Porsche Oh wow.
He aligned himself to professional criminals and said, I'm in your camp. I make house calls twenty four hours a day, and I will get a magistrate out of bed at two.
Am for you if I have to right her.
Magistrate, I implore you wake up. But in doing this he very much alienated himself from the other side, the police, all right, and they ended up loathing him because he wasn't only successful in court, he also seems to carry it on outside the court. His attitude was that this was a game and he was able to win it.
Right.
He wasn't just about justice, he was about winning this will become quite evident. He would live by the line you never ask your clients if they're guilty or not sure, so.
You don't know you're not liable in any way.
You never ask. And I heard him say this many times in different interviews when I was researching this. His job, as can be argued, of course, is the job of every defense lawyer, was presuming innocence and make sure only the cases with strong enough evidence proven beyond reasonable doubt would go down. But this often perhaps went a little
too far. He had a lot of clients, obviously, but I'm going to talk today about the three or at least three of the most prominent ones for which he became infamous and inevitably led to his downfall.
Wow. Okay.
The first is a name, a man by the name of Dennis Allen aka missed a Death. Have you heard of him?
No?
He was a violent and depraved drug dealer who dipped into his own supply coming heavily addicted himself. This only made him even more erratic than he was already. He was the eldest son of criminal matriarch Kath Petting Girl. Okay, Yeah, which I feel like anyone from Melbourne will recognize that name. It is one of the most infamous and notorious names in Melbourne crime. Her family, family, family, Her family is
inarguably evil and very dangerous. And I'll go into some of this family a bit later on cath Petting Girl brought her son, her first son, Dennis Allen, to see Andrew Fraser when he was in his twenties, and they had a lot of cash to spend, so spend it on Fraser they did. Alan was a major drug dealer in inner city Melbourne, mostly working around Richmond and South Era during the nineteen eighties.
You've got to have your beat, I feel like when you're working in the underground as well, you've got to have your beat. Like exactly a lot of people know about, like you know, the kind of a Carlton, you know, crimes around that Rome and the crew.
Will come up as well. It's a very Melbourne story, No I like it. It's full shadow. So one of the things, I mean, there's lots of stuff about this horrible man. One of the things that kind of comes up again and again is that he lived his house in Richmond backed onto the train line and back in those days, trains had windows that you could put up and down. So he would have his drug runners throw the drugs out of the train window into his backyard.
Doctor Death, not Andrew Fras, No, no, no.
He said, we're all on Dennis, and he would do that, so you know, it was never seen going in and out of his front front door. I should certainly, my god, fish good. The money he made from drugs, he set up brothels and massage parlors in inverted commas, and he paid off police. There was a lot of corruption around him these days.
Also, can I just say that massage parlors. A friend of mine went to a massage parlor the other day and the end got offered an extra service.
And I went to like what he thought was just like a spa day spar or knew it was.
It was no, no, it was a massage place to get like you had like bad knees and got like a massage and got offered an extra service at the end. Was like, that's so interesting because it is hard, I reckon, I don't. I've never really had a message before.
That's why he was offered.
Yeah, but also like yeah, I get that, and I like that. I love that. Okay, I think what you did. It was amazing then, because I think it is a thing that probably people know, like the unspoken thing of going oh I can go here they call a happy ending, But how would you know, like if it.
Like, no, there's like an unwritten rules. The ones that have the flash neon open.
Signs, ah really and that have like.
You can't see through the windows because they're all covered with like the signage.
Sure okay, shoes hanging out the.
Drug dealers like Dennis Allen. A right, So I've got a quote here from Andrew Fraser talking about Dennis Allen. He would buy heroine and crush it and flatten it, then cover it in glad rap and hang it on the clothesline in the backyard with a douna over it like a quilt cover. He would then crank the line up high so it was well above any dogs that the police might bring in. So he was drying out his drugs in plain sight cover. His other treat This
is still Fraser talking about him. His other trick was to buy a heap of potted azaleas, pull them, pull them out of the pot, stick the gear in the bottom of the pot, then put the plant back in and bury the pot in the garden, so it just looked as if it was growing in the ground. Sure, with guns, he would dig a hole up against the boundary fence and then go side like dig under sideways into his neighbour's yard to bury the gun that way. If police ever dug it up, exactly under the adience.
If the police ever dull it to you, thank you, dig you Soliah. That could be the name of a dog. If police dug it up, he would prove that it wasn't on his property.
Oh okay, that's pretty clever.
Yeah, we're not giving advice here, We're just talking about the crimes of someone.
Yes, no advice. Now.
One major crime he was convicted of, and there are so many, but one of the major ones was a rape in the nineteen seventies for which he served a ten year prison sentence. This hardened him significantly. After his release from this sentence, he was suspected of being involved in up to thirteen some reports says many as fifteen murders.
Oh wow, okay.
One of his most heinous crimes was the mo of former Hell's Angels Biky Anton Kenny. Dennis Allen had cut off his legs with a chainsaw to fit him into a forty four gallon drum that was dumped in the Arrow River.
Oh my god.
He's also believed to have killed his friend Wayne Stanhope. Now, whether Alan planned to kill stan Hope or did it on a whim is uncertain, but what happened was when he was invited. So Stanhope was invited over to Dennis Allen's home, like straight on his release from jailp he went. They were all doing drugs together and he went to change a record on Allan's stereo system and Alan shot him in the head. He emptied two guns before cutting his friend's throat.
Oh wow.
His body was never found, so no charges were laid.
Everyone knew he was guilty, but wow.
This is what has been said about what happened in all of Allan's alleged crimes. Andrew Fraser essentially helped him avoid jail time by leveraging his knowledge of corrupt Victorian police at the time, and there was a lot of corruption, So essentially Andrew Fraser knew about the corruption and would use that to kind of not get him charged. He would get a lot of Allan's hearings adjourned time and
time again, but one was particularly prominent. Dennis had asked Andrew Fraser to get in a German in a hearing at the coroner's court. So it was hearing into a woman who had died of a heroin overdose, but whose body had been found in a river with signs that had been put there after death. Dennis Allen came forward as the main suspect, but there wasn't enough evidence to arrest and charge him, so instead they did a coroner's inquiry into her death and essentially into whether they could
find enough evidence to charge Allan. Now, Fraser had kind of said, I can't get you out of this one, mate. It's the coroner's court. It looks really bad here. I can't adjourn this anymore. You weren't going to have to go in today. Andrew Fraser went and picked him up. They drove in to the Coroner's court together and as they pulled up they saw dozens of fire trucks because the Coroner's court had been firebombed, so it was closed for the day. My god, Alan said, quote told you
I'd get it adjourned. Alan said, quote told you I'd get it adjourned.
Oh my god, this time this is such an extreme Yeah.
Yeah, Now Andrew Fraser. Fraser was quoted as saying, Dennis was always polite to me, listened and took my advice, but his only redeeming feature to me was that he had a lot of money. Sure, clearly this is still phrases. Quite clearly he was a dreadful person.
Sure, okay, So he knew he was representing you know, can you call them not pests? But it was like what pits pits the pit pits? Yeah, exactly, So he knew the people he was representing, but he.
Was really absolutely attorney.
Yeah my god, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, wow, Yeah, that's so interesting.
I mean I never in all of my research, I didn't ever hear him talk about any specific cases of people he got off because he thought they were innocent. But he spoke a lot about the fact that he says, you never ask your client whether they did it.
Yeah. Okay.
Now, thankfully for Andrew Fraser and undoubtedly many many people who surely would have gone on to become more victims of Dennis Allen, or at the very least have horrible dire interactions with him. Dennis Allen died in nineteen eighty seven at the age of thirty five. His heart gave out almost certainly not helped by years of very heavy drug abuse, which per my re caused pieces of his heart to literally break away.
Oh wow, he's heart broke, his.
Heart broke heart failure because he was a piece of ship. Wow, only thirty five thirty five? Now I can I just say, I'm not saying his piece of ship because he did drugs hit.
This man was a piece of yes, yeh, yeah, yeah, he sawed someone's legs off. I think you're hard to say that. Yeah.
Andrew Fraser has said openly that he was very happy to see the back of mister death, but it wouldn't be the end of his relationship with Dennis Allen's family.
More on that later, a lot of money coming to that family.
The second of Andrew Fraser's notorious, well known clients I'm going to talk about today is Lewis.
Moran, the Moran family.
One of the heads of the Carlton Crew, which you brought up earlier, so very brief I'm just mentioned, not even background. Melbourne had very very prominent underworld gangland wars in the eighties, nineties, early two thousands. It was essentially kind of two gangs ended up turning against each other. One person started working with one to make ecstasy pills, then went off on their own was shot in the stomach.
This kicked off the whole thing. One of the gangs was called the Carlton Crew, and Lewis Moran was the patriarch, or one of the patriarchs of this crew. His fat This is just to kind of paint a bit of a picture as to his life in crime and how he got started. His father was a bookie in a local pub who always cooked the books, and his mother was a quote unquote nurse for a prominent illegal abortionist. Oh wow, it wasn't a great family. Moran was an
all rounder as a crime figure. He was a skilled pickpocket, something he never quite gave up, even when he was making plenty of cash in other ways. He and his brother Tuppence were tough street fighters and were said to use guns only when necessary.
And I think it's someone called Tuppen's I think tough.
Well, yes it was his nickname, but I don't remember why the family was heavily involved in illegal book making, race fixing, and opportunistic receiving of stolen goods. Now, it was Lewis's son Jason and step soon Mark who moved the family into the lucrative business of drugs, the business that eventually cost both of them, or all of them, their lives. Lewis Moran, cunning and cautious, was always looking for an edge. He was looking for better legal advice
and had heard about this guy called Andrew Fraser. He met Fraser through the respected barrister Phil Dunn at a lunch at the Flower Drum restaurant.
Oh sure, quite a well known restaurant.
In very well known. It actually won in a war. I think it won Restaurant of the Year, or that might be wrong, but I think it's right this year in twenty two.
Really yeah, I've been around for a long time, a long time, and it's institution really prominent in.
That era of you know, high flyers, whether they're underworld or above. So Moran asked Andrew Fraser for his card, and Fraser gave him a handful and with that gestures it is But he was like, this is my inn. This is les hand out as many as you want. With this gesture, his standing as the underworld's go to lawyer was consolidated.
Wow.
A quote from Andrew Fraser. I never charged Lewis assent because anything he sent me so many blokes, sorry, because he sent me so many blokes who did pay.
Yeah.
Sure, he would sometimes ask for a favor for a good bloke who'd got in trouble, but he would tell me which ones had plenty and to charge them accordingly. Right, right, So he knew Lewis brand. Yeah, he knew Louis Maron was such a big player in the underworld that he was like, I'm not going to charge you ever, mate, You're all good. Just give me some more work and Lewis will kind of work with him to go charge this one.
Yeah right.
Fraser trusted Moran a lot more than he certainly trusted but even liked, Dennis Allen. But business is business. Moran paid him by referring, referring a stream of clients. Allan had paid with an endless stream of cash.
Did you know if Andrew Fraser worked with a law firm or he was always out on his own?
I don't know.
Actually, yeah, work, you'd have to work by yourself, you couldn't.
Yes, yeah, I'm thinking that, but I actually don't know.
Ye.
So, over these years representing many dodgy and discussing criminals, the underworld's favorite lawyer got into a bit of a habit himself. He broke one of the iron rules of old time criminals. Don't get high on your own supply.
Oh sure, okay.
Fraser started using cocaine after a biky gang leader tossed him a bag of the drug as a gift when Fraser was going away for a weekend to the Adelais Grand Prix in the late nineteen eighties.
Thrown through the window of a passing trip.
It may have been.
Now.
The reason I bring it up here is that Lewis Moran said from very early days that will get you into nothing but trouble, mate, stay.
Out of it. Nice for him to warn him.
Exactly if Louis Morando's any I was staying out of trouble now. This cocaine use, over time became less of a habit and more of a full blown addiction, a five thousand dollars a week addiction.
Or less five thousand dollars a week.
In a podcast with him that I listened to, he said, a cocaine addiction is God's way of telling you you've got too much money.
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true.
His addiction was a very poorly kept secret, but we'll get back to that. The third client I'm going to talk about today is Victor Pierce. While working with Slash representing Dennis Allen, Andrew Fraser became inextricably linked to the wider family. As I said before, Dennis Allen's mother was Cath petting Gil. Two of her other sons were notorious gangsters, Trevor Pettingill and Victor Pierce, so there were two of
Dennis Allen's half brothers. After Dennis Allen died, Andrew Fraser wanted out of the petting Gill family, but that was a lot easier said than done. They saw him as being on the books, even owing them. One of his brothers, Victor Victor Pierce had been represented by Fraser years before and hadn't avoided conviction and was locked up for four years. He blamed Fraser, of course, he was his lawyer and
he hated him. Wow. But the rest of the fa family loved and trusted Andrew Fraser, so Victor Piers was willing to give the lawyer another go. Fraser essentially feeling threatened and backed into a corner to continue working with the family. Victor Pierce was not someone you wanted to cross, right. His family was the only reason that essentially he didn't go and shoot him up. Now that Dennis Allen was dead, he was like, well, what have you done for the
rest of us? The family was going no, no, no. Kath Penning girl was going, no, mate, we trust him, let him represent you.
Wow. And also if you're owing them some sort of favor or you're on their books as well, such a big thing.
Absolutely. Now, Victor Piers was loathed and feared in equal measure. He was hot headed, he loved guns and was a very heavy drug user as well as a trafficker, but at this stage he was fairly low on the rung of Melbourne crime figures until now. I'm not going to go into this in super detail because I'm definitely going to do this story as its own episode, but the
background is required to continue Andrew Fraser's story. Victor Pierce, his brother Trevor Pettingill, and Victor's best mate Graham Jensen were widely suspected of being part of a gang that was dubbed the Flemington Crew, a gang of violent armed robbers who carried out terrifying bank heists in full masks, often shooting up the place but leaving little to no evidence.
Police were sure they knew who the men were, and they were surveilling all of those that they suspected to be part of the gang when something happened that is widely believed to have sparked one of the most notorious crimes in Victorian and in fact Australian history. On October eleven, nineteen eighty eight, police were going to arrest Graham Jensen,
so Victor Pierce's best mate. They were going to arrest him in connection with an armed robbery and a murder, a couple of murders going on in this group of people. But the ambush to arrest him was bungled by police. A chase ensued, during which Pollissa they saw Gentsen brandish a gun, and they shot him in retaliation. Victor Pierce's
best friend had been shot dead by police. Thirteen hours later, at four thirty nine am on the twelfth of October, an abandoned Holden commodore parked on Walsh Street in South yarra was reported to Victoria Police. Two young officers, twenty two year old Stephen Tynan and twenty year old Damienare took the call and they went to see what this car was doing, dumped in the middle of a quiet
street with its lights on and its doors open. When these two young constables got out of their car to go and investigate this car on Walsh Street, they were shot dead in cold blood. Oh wow, this was huge news. Two completely innocent young constables out doing their jobs, trying to protect the community, killed for no reason or of a war against police of which they didn't know they were a part. I'm going to tell that full story.
Yeah, that's fascinating.
The suspects for the Wolsh Street killings were immediately identified by police as suspects as Victor Pierce, Trevor Petting Girl, Anthony Lee Farrell and Peter McAvoy. Now, getting evidence and landing charges would take police two and a half years, but they got there. All four of these men were charged with murder. Again, it was a huge story. Still today, you can say Wolsh Street to anyone in Australia and they know about that story.
Except for me. I didn't know about that story, but like.
You're not not know even the details, but you know two cops were shot down. Yeah, guess who they got to represent them?
Ah, Julian Burnside.
No it was Andrew Fraser. Yes, who this whole story is about. Andrew Fraser says it was a messy investigation by police from the start and the charges were rushed. He said that police. Yeah, wow, we'll go into that another time. Fraser said that police straightway identified who they believed were responsible and then went about building a case against them, which is the wrong way to do it. And he used that. Fraser used that in his defense. Again,
I'll save all the details for another episode. But unbelievably, still to this day, all four men were acquitted of the Wall Street killings. They walked free, and Andrew Fraser was to thank police were in ray. In Fraser's own words, this is when he believed police, the police force first turned their sights onto taking him down, and as it turns out, it wouldn't be that hard. The next chapter of script here is called Fraser's Undoing.
Oh my god, this is a chapter that I'm interested interested the whole time, but I'm very interested in this chapter.
So Wall Street was in nineteen eighty eight. I left it to telling until last because kind of for the background on the families. But also that was the thing that really that's what a lot of people remember. Imagine Fraser was he the one that represented the Wall Street guys and got the wife and then so from being known as a lawyer doing that to then going on and representing people like Dennis Allen and Lewis Moran. The police fucking hated hated him.
Do you know how long he kind of practiced law before he was to get a name like that. You imagine he was working for a long time.
While yes, he was fifty at the age of his undoing.
Yes, okay, right, all right, so he'd had a pretty big coreer.
Well, I mean to be hired by the the Wolf Street Killers, he acquitted World Street Killers.
And Paul Hogan.
No, I don't think you represent his criminal case. You may have, but I did to brickon to that.
And there's no reason I brought Paul Hogan, like to bring up you always do.
You always do? Uh yeah, So, like he was prominent enough by then representing them. So as I said earlier, Lewis Moran had warned Fraser that doing drugs would be his undoing something the kg old crook feared for his own sons or his own son Jason Moran and his stepson Mark, which it was. They both fell victim to the underworld War of the nineties and early two thousands. Fraser said, I looked in the mirror one morning and
admitted it to myself. You've got a habit, I told myself, and I decided to give it up then and there. I kept that promise right up until lunchtime. Oh my god, that's like a serious yeah addiction.
Absolutely, And you should only ever look in the mirror and say, God, you look good.
Yeah. I do think in this case it was maybe you know, I think it was fine for him to clock himself out, okay, Or were you saying that just to me specific to.
You specifically in everyone listening. I think you should only ever look in the mirror and say, God, you look good, and wink if you want. If you want, yeah, you can add if you want.
Our listeners are good, and God they look good.
They look good as well.
So apart from the damage to his reputation, his law practice, and his family life, phrases one thousand dollars a day cocaine Habit made him.
Vulnerable thousands a day.
Oh my god, that must be business days only because I said five.
Year on the weekend.
It also made him very vulnerable because it gave corrupt police something to threaten him with.
Yeah.
Sure, And as we know, and you can imagine from his role in many criminal cases that didn't go police this way, including Paul Hogan, but particularly exacerbated by his defense of the Wall Street four. To put it bluntly, they fucking hated the guy and everyone.
I'm sorry that you just went with that and swore like that, I'm not, You're not. I'll say it again, don't. I said I would not that I will be careful what you do right now because there might be kids listening in the car.
Oh my god, I hope there's not.
Well, how do we know now?
And you're about about legs being chopped off and oh.
Okay, yeah dad, if you got, yeah, have take a good heart, look at yourself in the mirror and then say got you got?
You look good? And Andrew Fraser hated police right back. He was and remained even all after all that's to come very vocal on police corruption, particularly in the drug Squad. Drug Squad of the eighties and nineties. Andrew Fraser's saucers now he.
Is a git a brand, the Paul Newman exactly.
Uh, he remained always he never ever ever threw anyone under the bus term he kept exactly even after his own downfall, he kept he never chucked anyone else in it, which is why I've written. Fraser's sources suggested he never said who told him any of this information?
When you said that before? Did I say you bind?
Yeah, you did say that you did it as if it was like s a U see. But they suggested that rogue detectives were getting the precursor chemicals that were being made into ecstasy. They were getting them wholesale from a legitimate source, So you are orful you ask under the cover of an ongoing police sting operation. So police would get legitimate precursor drugs, saying they were doing a
sting on operation. They would then take these products to known and to mean cooks and offer them the chemicals on the basis that half of the finished speed as finished ecstasy, would be handed over to them as payment. Right, okay, right, And This thing worked well apart from the fact as it turned out that the dodgy police sold much, if
not most, of the drugs to street dealers. Sure, okay, Andrew had a string of clients and contacts who told him police had robbed them, flogged them, and then arrested them as well. So they were doing this dodgy business and then still arresting them at the end of the day.
Yeah.
Right.
Fraser didn't believe he could speak safely to anyone in the Victoria Police Force, so decided to contact the National Crime Authority as it then was, which is like the federal agency looking into police coruption. Ah okay, this is a quote from Fraser. A policeman I knew assured me that I could trust a particular guy in the National Crime Authority. He was wrong. The person I contacted called Strawhorn the same day and told him Fraser is onto you.
Now.
Strawhorn was the head of the armed drugs squad and arguably the most crooked of all of them, so he was told Frases onto you. And so Fraser says, in his own words, his decision to blow the whistle on corrupt state police blew up in his face. From that moment on, he was in big trouble. As Fraser sees it, Strawhorn's sinister influence over the drug squad immediately swung all of its resources against Andrew Fraser to neutralize the threat that he posed. A crooks are not dabbing on him.
But if there's this criminal lawyer that hates us onto us, we're going to do something to take doubt. This is all Andrew Fraser's allegations. I mean, straw Horn has been done for corruption, but that's not the story. So Andrew says, as part of this like sting operations that were going back and forth, he says, rogue police broke into Jason Moran to Lewis's Moran's son's house to retrieve five thousand ecstasy pills that they had earlier planted.
On him five thousand.
Now that the rogue police wanted to concentrate on nailing Moran's lawyer rather than Moran himself, they wanted the pills back as potential ammunition in what I'm calling the war against Andrew Fraser. So they'd put allegedly five thousand ecstasy pills in the Moran's place to do one of these dodgy sting operations. They went back there and retrieved the pills, not in a sting operation, so they could try to
use them against Andrew Fraser. So but in the end, Strawhorn's crew didn't need the ecstasy pills to be planted in Andrew Fraser's possession as throwaways. Fraser did their work for them. Oh my god, been bugging him and in doing so, he was recorded in several compromising conversations, notably giving advice to a cocaine smuggler on how he could import five and a half kilos of the drug.
Wow, giving advice. That's us.
This was blood on his hands. Andrew Fraser was organizing, or at least helping plan and organize the importation of a commercial quantity of drugs. He was arrested in his home with full lights and sirens. And our version of the SWAT team like breaking into.
Here of teams in Australia, do you.
Well, we call them the songs. So the Special Operations Group is our version of the swash. SOGS is great because so it's for Special Operations Group. But the acronym is also like kind of colloquially called the Sons of God. So they're known as the sons of God.
That's called the Sogs.
Anyway, Andrew Fraser was not laughing about the acronym that night. That night he was charged. While as a lawyer, you would think that he would have fought the charger's tooth and nail, but no, Fraser could not and therefore did not argue his innocence. He pleaded guilty to traffic in cocaine and to helping a client import two point seven million dollars worth of the drug from West Africa.
Oh my god, this was the early nineties.
Was late eighties, nineteen ninety nine that he was charged. Oh yeah, sorry, I didn't say that anywhere. It was nineteen ninety nine.
Yeah, wow, Okay, that's so much money. Yeah, so much drugs.
Yeah, five and a half but Helos, Yeah he's here. He went to court in two thousand and one. Now obviously he was strunk off the law register. It was never yeah, unfortunately, Yeah, it's all that takes. Pleading guilty to importing five and a half killers of cocaine. He could no longer and would never be able to again work as a lawyer. But he had cooperated and he had pleaded guilty right at the start. This was always and is always sorry a strong mitigating factor in judges' findings
and sentences. If someone pleads guilty, they save the state a lot of money from going through a trial, they have a lot of things, and also shows accountability and potentially remorse.
Yeah. Sure.
His lawyer had submitted to the court that his addiction should lessen his culpability and therefore lessen the severity of his sentence. His lawyer stated once he said this in court, once cocaine took hold of him, the mix of that poison and his own personality disorder was quite deadly, he said. Despite the charges, mister Fraser was an extremely decent human being who was involved in a wide range of community activities, and who keenly felt the impact and shame he had
brought on his family. That Fraser's wife had endured comments in innuendo, while his parents, once so proud, now averted their eyes from neighbours, and his children were suffering gibes at the school. Now, whether or not any of this played into the judge's sentencing, we don't really know, but I want to add if police hated Fraser the way they did so too did a lot of the justice system.
He was seen as the man who got the Wall Street killers off, and a lot of people so a lot of the industry thought he made a mockery of their justice system. But of course judges don't employ bias or personal gripes in sentencing by the letter of the law. In November two thousand and one, fifty year old Andrew
Fraser was sentenced to seven years. Wow, it's funny that you say that's it, because then a lot of people also say seven years is a lot for a straight up guilty play, a one off trap like traffic.
That's so much.
Well, there I meet it. Somewhere in the middle of that is where the judge would have come to I suppose. And it wasn't going to be easy. Well, whether you think seven years is a lot or a little, it was. His minimum term was five years, so five years without a doubt behind bars, and a portion of that time was to be served in maximum security maximum security. So yeah, whether you think seven years is a lot or much, that to me seems wild.
Yeah, to be maximum security for something that would.
Be murderers and rapists and like huge, big crime gang.
Lords yeah to Paz.
Correct, we're getting there.
Okay, sorry, sorry.
So, yeah, I just think that's wild. The unit that he was housed in in Port Philip Prison was he was housed with thirty eight of the most dangerous criminals in Victoria. So there were only thirty nine people in that whole unit and he was one of them.
Was that because of the police they didn't like him? Was that kind of wow? They were? Yeah?
Perhaps, who know? Perhaps he didn't have an avenue for appeal either. He had pleaded guilty, so he didn't have an avenue to appeal his conviction. He could have he could have appealed his sentence, but it was there is always a risk that they can turn around and give you more.
If you do that, Okay.
So he was kind of sitting waiting, wishing for something to happen, and waiting on the sidelines and kind of keeping up with what was happening in the outside world. And on March seventeen, two thousand and three, which is Saint Patrick's.
Day, Oh good, okay, good, yeah, correction.
The deputy chief of the Victorian Police drug Squad, Wayne Strawhorn, remember that name. He was arrested for trafficking a commercial quantity of pure pseudoeffridron two none less than Gangland figure Mark Bran was Moran's son, so the head of the drug squad who had had it in for Andrew Fraser, was then arrested himself on these charges.
And pseudo effidron is quite an odd thing to be so that's as.
I was saying earlier about the precursor to like ecstasy and speed, that's the precursor that were getting. So like when you go, this might not be thing for international listeners, but in Australia certainly if you want the cold, like the good cold and flu tablets from the pharmacy that have pseudoefron in them.
You have to say behind the counter police.
That's right, and that's why you have to give your ID. So they are logging who's buying pseudoeprodrone, so people can't be buying heaps because that is part of one of the illicit drugs.
Sure.
And also by this time Mark Moran, who he had supplied the drugs to, had been murdered himself, so he, his brother Jason, and his father Lewis would eventually be killed in Melbourne's a gangland war and as I said, Sewan had been the one behind Fraser's arrest. So Fraser thought bingo. He launched an appeal based on the fact that the cops that took him down wire crooked, and he was granted a hearing. So when you launch an appeal, you put in the paperwork saying this is why I
want to appeal. The appeals court can either say yes or no to that. If they say yes to that, they allow the hearing where all the evidence is presented. This is why I think my conviction should be quashed, my sentence should be changed, any of the above. So he was granted a hearing and he and his lawyers were absolutely convinced he would win, like this is this is absolutely you know, knock out of the park. The squad who took him down for traffic themselves all in custody for trafficking.
Wow.
So the judge heard all the appeal evidence and denied an appeal. Really, Phraser would be spending at the very very least five years.
In prison from when he was first Yes, yep, So.
There was no chance he was going to get out earlier than the five years. At the very earliest. There wasn't much more for him to do but kill time. He couldn't practice law obviously, he didn't know what the future held for him, and he had no more avenues of appeal to study up on. That had kind of kept him quite busy looking, you know, doing his own kind of law legal stuff to be to be able to help himself. So he just kind of lived with what he'd done and tried to take the time to
change and get fit time. Yes, I'll tell you at the end that's not the name after shows, but I'm not going.
To tell you quarter back now.
So he wanted to what he wanted to do most is just avoid the unsavory types that he was housed with in this Union Obscurity Unit. One of the most infamous unsavory types that he was housed with was a man named Peter Norris du Pass. He was in prison at the time for the gruesome, violent, heinous murders of
two women, Margaret Maher and Nicole Patterson. And at this point, dear listeners, if you have not listened to our full episode on Peter du Pass, I would recommend to going back and doing so you can get to the end of this. If you want, but there are some spoilers for that episode. There are also was for this episode in that so we decide which turned him on a spoil if you hear, maybe just stick around then go back.
Peter du Pass was very publicly believed to be guilty of at least one more murder than these two, and that murdering particular, was that of twenty five year old Messina hal Vargas, who had been brutally murdered while tending to her grandmother's grave at Faulkner Cemetery in Melbourne in nineteen ninety seven. Wasn't enough evidence still, du Pass was
in maximum security for life, never to be released. He was on two life sentences with no minimum tim But in two thousand and six an inquest was ordered into her death, which really was the police's way of being able to prove that it was due Pass. They had no other suspects, all signs pointed to him. Taking it to a coronial inquest essentially was so they could work out whether they could gather enough evidence to charge him. In gathering their evidence, and Andrew Fraser had been in
So this is two thousand and six. Andrew Fraser had been in jail for very nearly five years. At this point, in gathering their evidence, police wondered if the serial killer du Pass could have made friends on the inside and maybe may have opened up to them. He was there in life, there may not have been much else to talk about. Sure, you also don't know if people like that brag to others. I'm the kind of bigger criminal.
Than you your killer as well, you think maybe they are bragging.
So police booked up picked up the phone to Fulham Prison, which at this time was a lesser security facility where Andrew Fraser had finally been moved to. He did over three years in maximum security and then was moved to Fulham. Police asked to speak to the lawyer that they had put in prison.
Wow.
When police told him they wanted to ask about Peter Dupas, Fraser said, I wondered when you'd call Wow.
It's wild that he didn't go straight away, And.
I'll get into that. Also he fucking hated police.
Yeah, that's true.
Yeah, I'll go into it.
Why Yeah, Yeah, do you think as a lawyer you would probably know that maybe you'd get some sort of leniency if.
You Yeah, but also think about where he is and what people in prisons due to so called dogs.
Yeah, goddamn dogs and pigs and rats.
Pigs are what they call the police.
Y's what they call the police.
And they would do that to them too, I guess, so, Fraser said while house together at Port Phillip Prison. In a very unexpected turn for no one more so than Andrew Fraser himself, Juwpass really warmed to him and he didn't talk to anyone. Jupas had become an accomplished gardener and tended to the jail vegetable patch. Fraser, who'd been an athlete at school, was determined to regain his former fitness after you know, really spiraling and becoming a cocaine addict.
He was like, right, while I'm here, I'll get fit, I'll get healthy again. So he would run and train outdoors daily. Jupas started to walk with him and would start to ask questions about the law. He was really intrigued by the law, which I suppose you would be if that was what your whole life kind of came down to. That the law put you behind us.
You got nothing else do? You may have asked some questions?
Yeah, Also, the Lord didn't put him behind bus his murderous rages did.
Yeah, Lord doesn't kill people. People kill people.
That's exactly what I always that hay fever today. So if I'm sniffing, I really do apologize.
Sore. You're talking too much about cocaine.
Yeah, phantom cocaine symptoms. And over time he started to kind of treat Fraser as like his own private counsel. I would start to open up to him a little bit, ask him lots of questions that sounded like they were pointed. Yeah, sure, And eventually he began to talk about Messina hal Vargas. Fraser told police that he had once found a homemade knife like a shive, concealed among weeds at the prison, and Dupas walked over and picked it up and inspected it,
which is when the confession, according to Fraser, occurred. So this is this is now a quote from Andrew Fraser. We regularly used to find stuff hidden in the garden, drugs, weapons and other stuff. I once found a homemade knife and Juwpass came over. I called you passover to show it to him. He took it off me and started handling it, almost caressing it in a sexual way to pass then started arted saying Mersina, Mersina, Mersina, with a strange look on his face. I was certainly left in
no doubt that Dupass murdered Messina. Quote continues. This wasn't some sort of Geilhouse confession where someone has gone in and sat inessell one night and had a brew with another prisoner and somebody has allegedly said something. It's a lot stronger than that. Dupas and I spoke regularly, just the two of us. This was over months and months, and he was talking to me and confiding in me. There was one occasion when another prisoner came up to us and when we when we were gardening, and started
abusing Dupass. The prisoner was yelling at du Pass saying you killed Mersina. I know you killed Mersina. After the other prisoner had gone, Dupass turned to me and said, how does that c U and T No, I did it in end of phrases quote.
I remember that from the picture Pass episode. That was Yeah, that was the way that he got him.
Yeah, yes, it's overtime. He was asking us of things. He never said I did it kind of this is what I did from what I know. But yeah, it started with him caressing this knife, saying messina, messina, messineen. Yes, and and a phrase I think I got into this as well, says he was terrified of Peter duo Pass. There was there was nothing kind of endearing about him at all. He was like a horrible, terrifying man.
Yeah, okay.
I think the fact that he kind of confided in him and treated him like his lawyer, Fraser felt a bit safer because he kind of confided in and trusted him. So he would talk to him, but he would not go out of his way to do so, but he would talk back to him because he thought, that's not someone I want to be on their bad side.
And also, you know, both in maximum security. I guess a lot of the time you kind of go, oh, they're not going to rat on me because we're both in security. I guess they were just both killing time.
Very clever. It's almost like you came up with it. So Fraser told all of this two police. He had said nothing before. They weren't exactly mates. Andrew Fraser and the police he didn't trust them, and they certainly didn't trust him until they called. They said, would you be willing to get up on the stand and testify against Peter Dupatz, and he said, under no circumstances while I am in jail, no I will be killed without a doubt. There is no way. I know how the law works.
I'm coming close to the end of my minimum parole sentence. At least you get me out of here and I'll testify.
He's also terrified of him as well, like going back to prison and.
Just being of him, but then of also everyone else because they find out there's a rat in there, like he wouldn't survive as we've seen this one example of there's been he's found a hidden knife.
At some point in that petting zoo.
So he said, absolutely no way I'm going back to that prison. You've got absolutely nothing from me unless you get me out of here. So in September two thousand and six, Andrew Fraser, fifty five years old, were very quietly freed from full in prison two months before he's listed earliest release date. Now, when it gets to the end of your minimum sentence, and when it got to the five years for him, you have to apply to
the parole board and then they may grant you. Sure, So it's not a given that he would have got out then anyway, But it is also pretty wild that he was sitting on this information as someone who knows the law, understands the law, and wanted desperately to be out of there. He still didn't come forward with it because that you just don't do that in prison, You just don't do that. He was terrified for his life. He had agreed to give sworn evidence against Dupass. He
was taken out quietly for his own safety. If they saw him getting out, any word gone out that he was getting released, there was no way he would have just you do not dog on former crooks, no matter how violent to prave they are. You just don't do that.
And he worked with crooks a lot, so we would not.
Well, I think that's all part of it as well. You know. He wasn't just some suit wearing lawyer who was kind of going, oh, I don't want to be in here, maybe I'll use my legal smarts. He knew some of the worst of the worst of crime in Victoria, as he knew what they did to each other. Within hours of Fraser's release, detectives traveled to Port Philip Prison
and charged Peter du Pass with his third murder. They discovered that Dupass tried to recruit Fraser as his unpaid legal advisor when they were in the unit together at Port Fillm Prison, So he'd actually kind of said to him, I want you to work as my solicitor. Wow, like I want you to give me advice as a lawyer would. Now, if Fraser had been Dupass's lawyer, he would not have been legally allowed to give any evidence because any information
would have remained privileged and confidential. But given he was convicted criminal, he had been disbarred from the legal I meant that none of the conversations between the pair could be considered privileged. Fraser was nothing more than a fellow inate listening to du Pass yapping.
Oh that's great. Yeah.
In du Pass's murder trial, Andrew Fraser was the key star prosecution witness, which the irony.
Yeah.
Like I feel like the members of Victoria Police who were kind of using him for that, I wonder what the guilt levels or like maybe not even guilt, but like.
This is but I guess yeah, they would have hated him so much then.
To be like to be like, oh, really that's the person we've got to use. Yeah, he gave very over the top dramatic evidence, as was always his style in court. It was just that this was the first time about the witness box he did. At one point he was asked to he said that Dupass had done a pantomime type action with a knife or that pretending to have a knife, and he actually said to the judge, may I step out of the witness box.
And shine behind you.
I was about to say, not audience, jury, but he actually like walked in front of the jury box and was like had his arms up as if he was holding a knife and was doing stabbing motions, massive like this yelling out Messina's name, to which like this is in front of the full court. Messina's parents are they're they're sobbing, they're weeping. The jury was like shocked and appalled.
But I think it did have a really big impact, and it seems like a really crazy, depraved thing to do if that's not actually what he wasn't actually re enacting it. Yeah, yeah, so yeah, he was always big and over the top and dramatic in court as a lawyer. Now he was being that as a witness.
My god, it's so funny, is both you thought I was sociowbies that I call the jury my audience.
My audience. Yeah, like all all world, my audience. So Fraser said in the witness box that Dupatz confessed telling him no one would know he did it because he left no forensic evidence behind. Now, from what I've read and understood, he never actually referred to it, like he never said no one will know I killed Mersina? How far he spoke about the thing at.
Faulkner, Sure, okay.
And one of the things was Fraser was asking him one day about so Peter du pass was going to him when I said, he was kind of using him as his counsel. He was going to him with all their evidence, documents and sentencings and everything from Margaret mar and Nicole Patterson's murders, and kind of saying to Fraser like,
what can we do with this? Can we appeal? And in talking about one of those who Pass said they won't know about Faulkner or something about okay, right, no, not in Fulkner, and Fraser went, Faulkner, she was killed in Preston and he goes, yeah, yeah, yeah, Preston. And so then Andrew Fraser went and looked.
Into him oh wow, okay, so when you were a bit about it already.
Yes, yep. He spoke about the time he found du Pass Kradle the knife. So this is all in the witness box. Whispering was in his name, and while he stated he was absolutely terrified, he did carefully probe for more. He said that the thing about a du Pass with the stabbing motions, and Fraser got up and did this
in court, as I just said. Dupass's defense lawyer trying to argue that Fraser's whole story was a lie in order to win attention, to redeem himself, and primarily to provide material for a novel he was writing about his jail experiences, which, by the way, he did.
Write for Killing Time no called Court.
In the middle spelled coure.
It plays that when you open the book.
Exactly, it's like those birthday cards that beautiful, beautiful. Yeah. So the defense lawyer said, this guy has been a show pony as long as we've known him. He wants his time back in the media. He wants to redeem himself. So he's now remembered as the person that took down a murderer, not as the disgraced lawyer rebrand. Yes, but the jury believed Andrew Fraser. Dupass was found guilty in August two thousand and seven and sentenced to his third
life sentence. There had been a one million dollar reward on offer for Dupass's conviction, So information that led to the arrest and conviction of Messina hal Vargas's murderer, there would be a one million dollar award. Now Fraser has said that he did get some of this, but it's never been revealed how much. Right, Okay, And it was a recommendation by Victoria police that he deserved the reward money.
Right.
They stated unequivocally that they would not have got a conviction without his evidence.
That's true, because that was the reason. Yeah, it wasn't it completely?
So what do you think about that that it was vic Pole that actually said, yep, he should get the reward.
I think it's called egg on their face. Far Yeah, I think, Sam, Oh, you're so right, egg on a pig.
But it would have been I don't think we're allowed to call the police.
Nice. My old friend of mine that is like the most by the book person ever and never never does anything bad in his life. He always always anytime he sees a police cargo, thought it smelt bacon. Oh, yeah, it's awful, It's hilarious.
There was a there was a cafe in the town where my sister has a holiday house. There needs to be a cafe in the town called Piglets, And there was a sign leading into the town that said piglets five hundred meters ahead.
Yeah.
And one day then police Chief Commissioner of Victoria, Christine Nixon, was driving into town to do an opening of something in this little town and saw the sign saying piglets ahead, and she thought they'd put that up to take the piece out of her like. And then she went to the cafe and was like, oh wait, it's not about that.
No, I think I would think we've been quiet. That's that's a lot of swallowing your dignity, I think, you know, for them to do that.
I think it's actually quite admirable. Yeah. Also, it wasn't any of the detectives who had anything to do with him directly, you know, getting him behind bars and stuff. I don't know if some of them because obviously would have been the homicide squad. Yeah, some of them very well, may have worked on some of the some cases that he had defended, you know, like the doctor death and stuff. I don't know if there was any crossover with them, but I do think it's quite admirable for them to
say to not try to fight the reward money. They like, no, we put out a reward for this, and he got the convictions.
And you kind of see, like you know, in those kind of older TV shows of cops back then, you kind of see them as people that just hate the crims so much.
Was actually quite yeah, yeah, but they hate the crim's defense lawyers.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
So after Andrew Fraser's release from prison in two thousand and six, he rebuilt his life from scratch as an author, a documentary maker, and public speaker. Now I say from scratch.
He was signed by Maxim Sparks. Is that right?
Don't have that? You think everyone is.
Signed by.
Uh?
Yeah, I say it's rebuilt his life from a scratch in terms of money. His wife, who had stayed with him throughout his prison sentence, towards the end said when you get out, you're not going to be coming back and living with me, and they split up. He had two children who you know, he'd missed five years of their lives. He was living in housing that was provided by you know, the parole board. He was threatened multiple times in the lead up to Dupass's trial.
Okay, I received.
Anonymous threats saying, you know, don't dog all of this.
Imagine like the Underworld people would have been quite scared as well and been like you because I guess wine, it's a domino effect, isn't it exactly?
And the Underworld gat wars were I think they were pretty much all like the main part of Melbourne's Underworld gangline war was kind of wrapped up by two thousand and six.
But the people, to him, they are killing the world with comedy right now.
Don't you get defamation gays? That was a joke everybody.
For them killing me? What comedy is?
I kay to say? There are the people. Were the people that kind of in the gangland world that got away from ever being convicted or weren't then that was still around, it'd be pretty terrifying. Sure, although he represented some of them, he also represented the enemies of some of them. And yeah, it was a pretty terrifying way I would think to go back into life, especially some of them, so.
Loud and proud and rich yes, right, yeah, and kept making a scene of kind of saying, you just I just never asked them if they did it all, you know, like that the way he kind of praded himself.
Yeah, And he was given a lot of flak for the fact that he was the style witness for Peter to do pass. Obviously a lot of people that were very thankful for it, but there was also a lot that kind of tongue in cheek or roll in the eyes. He has to be the center of attention again, of course, he has to redeem himself. And then you know, I say, rebuilt his life from scratch as an author and public speaker and stuff. It was all about his life and his time, so it wasn't starting from scratch finding a
whole new career and everything. He used his life story to then get success of some form after his conviction as well.
Well, it's good that he kind of went for a like under the radar publicist Marx and Sparks, I said Max and Sparks before, but Marks and Sparks and I would like to put on the record sushi Mango have never.
Killed that we know of that we he phrased es Whears that from the moment he was arrested. He has never ever touched an illicit drug again, and I think I would believe him on that's pretty literally sobering wake up call.
Also, can I just say, real quick, if you ever found out why they're called sushi mango and it's not spelled very for like an Italian.
And it's not spelled sushi as the Italian food he is anyway, please you don't know you were just I'm just asking, okay, if anyone knows.
No one called sushi mango, if.
No one knows what we're talking about. Australian comedy trio Andrew Fraser did almost become a star witness in another murder case, again against Peter Dupass. Wow In twenty thirteen, police reopened the murder investigation of a ninety five year old Kathleen Downs, who had been killed in a very similar manner to Dupass's other known victims. So when they reopened to the case, they again called Fraser in, who said that Dupas had opened up about Kathleen's death, mentioning
it three times. He said Dupas referred to the ninety five year old as the old Shierlert Down.
The road.
He lived in Pascovale, near the unsolved murder in Brunswick, which du Pass had once told him, quote, I reckon, I'm going to end up wearing the old shiler as well, meaning Fraser interpreted to believe he would be implicated in Miss Down's death as well as health Arcassah. Sure, he said he could so. Fraser said he could do without further publicity relating to du Pass, but he did feel when police asked him he needed to speak up, so he held onto this for years. It was also only
three mentions of the old shiller down the road. It was far less convincing to Fraser as a lawyer as evidence and what he went through in defense, in speaking out and being a witness against du Pass the first time. Yes, because like I'm not, this man is behind bars for the rest of his life. I don't need to get him, help get him convicted of a fourth murder. I don't have enough evidence on my own. I don't need to
do this. But then when they reopened the murder investigation, he went there are these three things, he said to.
Me, God, you're gonna have to read about it in my book exactly. And Maxon just gives him the thumbs up.
Jupaz felt he needed then to speak up. He was also spurred on by a cancer diagnosis that made him recess a lot. So you hear that a lot when when someone has whether it's a near death experience or an illness, they go, Okay, what can I what's my legacy here?
I do wish it happened with criminals that have killed and we talk where the body.
Is like that, No, I do it.
I swear all the you're cool.
Man, think you Yeah, we say that all the time. People murderers who are on their deathbed or criminals are on their death bed, just confess you.
Have those Paul victim's family some sort of opportunity to bury their loved one or grief properly.
Yeah.
So Andrew Fraser agreed to be prosecution witness again. However, the case would end up falling over once again because of Andrew Fraser, never to be the one who wasn't the center of attention. By the time the case would be heard, Fraser was too sick with cancer to give evidence. Police were forced to abandon hopes of charges in this murder, but Kathleen Down's family hold no resentment towards Andrew Fraser
for not speaking out earlier. They have peace knowing you pass was the killer and that he would never be released.
Sure, it's so hard imagine just not knowing one but also being like.
Well they said, they said that, they said the justice, the legal system in it would just be about having it on paper. They say they know one hundred percent it is him. He had hurt anyone again, and really thanked Andrew Fraser for telling them that he did confess about these other things, so they at least knew. So I said he had cancer. He was getting more and more sick and was too sick to be able to
even be a witness in a case. So on Andrew Fraser's death, I'm going to steal the words here of crime reporter from the Age newspaper, Andrew Rule, who is one of the most brilliant writers in the world, and get him on the podcast. He's got his own podcast. I don't think you want to come on else, but we can try. He is also one of the I believe. Hang on, I'm going to google this before I say the wrong thing.
Okay, I will say something then about Max Markson. If you're listening to the podcast. We think you represent some of the greatest acts currently living.
I don't.
I do. I think you know what you did for Bill Clinton with his book. So we're in Australia's shut up.
I found the answer and I was right. It's always good to check though.
Yep.
Andrew Rule was one of the writers of the original books named Underbelly, which I then turned into the incredible TV series in Australia See Change, Sea Change. I've been talking a lot about the Melbourne Gangland War in this episode, listeners, I implore you to find under Belly season one.
Yeah. I wonder where it's available, but yeah, we watched it.
It's probably on stand or like one of the things. Look wherever you are in the world. Look if you can find it under Belly season one. There are many seasons and they're all good, but the first season is one of the best strulling TV shows with God and Graund and Vince Colossimo.
I didn't see at the airport.
And there's also other Roger Corser, our.
Friend Jane Harbor, beautiful Jane Harbors.
She's not listening to this episode. We thought of three other people before.
She came to my house warming, and she every single time someone would bring some sort of present or something, you know, beautiful housewoman gives you go, that's from all of us, every single time. That's from all of us, just shouting across the place. That's from all of us.
Underbelly Season one, Jane Harbor is the girl in the first episode who's wearing the slippers when she goes out driving. You'll know that it's a fantastic show. And a lot of these characters are in at the Morans. Yeah, watch it. It's great anyway. One of the writers of it was Andrew Rule. The other John Sylvester, another very famous Melbourne crime writer. So I'm stealing Andrew Ruhle's beautiful words here
about Andrew Fraser's passing. The man who lived life on his own terms, though not always wisely left it the same way. On Wednesday, August nine, twenty twenty three, after a lengthy cancer battle, he called friends from his palliative care bed to say goodbye. I'm pulling the plug, he told one friend. Just before eleven am, he waited for his son Lachlan to arrive at his bedside to join his second wife at his own request, phrases. Oxygen supply was turned off and he died around one thirty PM.
And I just used his wording in that because I absolutely adore how he said. The man who lived life on his own terms, though not always wisely left it the same way. Yeah, yeah, because that to me sums up Andrew Fraser. I have been obsessed with this story. Now. I'll say three kind of sources or just recommendations if you want to know more about this. The TV show Killing Time, which is an Australian television show as well. It stars our favorite David Wynham playing Andrew Fraser. You
love that guy. I think it is a brilliant show. I rewatched it.
I watched it at the time.
I rewatched it again. It's from like twenty ten or something. It's brilliant and you really kind of get a look into the unraveling phrasers life.
But to see what's written by because there's a there's quite a few Australian writers that write everything, and what they do is brilliant.
It's not an Underbelly season.
Yeah, okay, but it's Killing Times. Is it a few seasons?
No?
No, No, it's just his story. It's just one season, and it's just his story.
David Wenham, he is so so good, like in everything he's recently in Fake as well, which is oh yeah, that's good too, Asha Eddy, and oh my god, the way he is able to play someone so likable but unlikable at the same time. I think David Wenham just has his uncanny ability to get lost in whatever part he's playing. Having written.
Dan you did, Of course you did? Written by Ian David mac gudge and Catherine Thompson and Sean Grant.
Oh yeah, I've heard. I've heard of those. They had a lot of Australian television.
Okay, well they wrote Killing Time. It's right.
I think they're on Rake as well, those people. Yeah right, okay, yeah, I feel that was right.
As were Yeah okay, And if you're going to watch it, they go into the wallsh Street killings a lot, which I have not gone into depth about here because I keep saying, oh do that. It's a story. Caught in the Middle is Phraser's book, and you are, that's right. And Andrew Rules podcast. He's got a podcast, but there is a kind of like an offset side podcast he's done called Cops, Crims and Cocaine where he interviews Andrew
Fraser over. I think it's three episodes and a lot of this I got from yeah, his own words listening to that. He spoke a lot in media after his release. He spoke a lot about what happened, a lot about Louis Moran and Denis Allen. I didn't speak much about Walsh Street. I min interpretation of that is perhaps the Again, I'm going to use the word guilt, but I don't know if it's the right word around his involvement in getting them off. He says quite openly that he knows.
Victor Pierce was okay.
At least Victor Piers was guilty.
Yep.
Yeah, but it's really interesting. The episodes with him are like a chat with him. It's not kind of explaining history and depth, but they're the sources. I hadn't thought you guys might be interested in listening to a watching I've just I think I first Oh no, no, of course. So I was going to say I think I first heard about it watching Killing Time. That's not true at all. I was there. I said this in the PDD Bassett episode. I was doing work experience in with Channel ten News,
doing a court story. So we were in court one day when all the court reporters phones started going mental, and it was when it had come out that Andrew Fraser was not even that he was, that Messina hal Vargas's murderer had been charged. Wow, And so that was a huge, big news day. And then of course it came out from that. It was because they received new evidence from Andrew Fraser from behind bars. So that was for my nerdy little journal brain, especially at work experience age,
I was like, this is so exciting. This is something in history. There's going to be closure for a family who's been looking for a killer for years. There's a lawyer involved who's been disgraced himself. This is so exciting. That made me really excited about crime reporting, but also made me really quite obsessed with this du Pass and Andrew Fraser cases. And it's one of those stories that
I just find It's got everything right. It's got a disgraced lawyer, it's got a lawyer that people fucking hated, it's got one of the most infamous police shootings in Australian history. It's got two of the most infamous drug lords and murderers. It's got jay l It's got another murderer. It's just I love it.
I love the story so fascinating, especially to happen in Melbourne.
It it feels like a TV show.
It absolutely does. It is called Killing Time.
Yes, just when I was giggling, then who wrote it? The number one question that came up was is it based on a true story? It doesn't feel like it should be. It's like that, it's too wild.
I'm going to tell you a story next week for our Christmas a week of episodes. I'm going to tell you a story that you will not believe. He's already not a TV show or.
A trade market trademarket yourself.
I would also like to ask you the question, is Andrew Fraser related to Dorm Fraser?
Well, you pronounced Frasier wrong. Then I don't know, but I have not seen.
Anywhere derogatory because she came to my school. So I was I was a big swimmer in school and she was a.
Swimmer who was big.
I was a large her. Wow, I just took up the whole pool and I, uh yeah, Dorm Fraser came to do a speech at our school, and she was an Olympic star. She was incredible and everything, and she told me to go away. I try to speak to her. What do you mean I want to speak to her after its Hi, Dawn, I I would love to be a swimmer one day of alway kind of loves when she went go away? No she did, Yeah she did. Yeah, Yeah, that's awderful.
Was she the one that stole the flag or something got in trouble?
Yeah, yeah, she's She had a lot of controversy, which well, it's so funny. Yeahs will be great for that as well as rex Hunt is the other one that I really want to do.
But I also rex Hunt is such a dangerous name.
To oh my god quickly. But yeah, so I anytime that Dawn Fraser later had any public speaking things where she would say something awful, my friend, one of my best Friendsoul always message, you'd be happy about that just because of taking down breaks it down. It's like Margaret Court. Every time I think Born and Margaret Court are kind of the same person derogatory.
But this is the funny thing, right, just because someone is an incredibly gifted athlete does not mean they're going to be I will.
Speeches at schools.
Will I will put all your minds back to our episode on Oscar Pistorius.
Sure people not always. That is so fascinating about Andrew Fraser, though I I didn't know the story and when you talked about it in the p to Do Pats episode, going this is going to be a whole story.
I will you like how I was like, because a lawyer was in jail and then got another guy.
That is fascinating.
There's so much more to it. I also didn't go into it all the fact that he was Alan Bond's lawyer.
Wow, which if.
You don't know about that, if you're listening, give a quick google an Australian businessman who lost a lot of people a lot of money. It would be winning the America's Cup.
That'd be a great episode as well.
Andrew Fraser was his lawyer as well, like he was, He's gonna be guy stories.
Yeah, yeah, there's gonna be some crossovers.
We'll do one mega episode one day.
Yeah, all about it all the look I before we go to the mail bank today, g Love. We have had quite a lot of messages this week about Joe Chinkway the episode that was this week, and a lot of people have actually sent through messages about the Joe chin Quay episode. Some people sent through an interview that was done with a new Oh after sixty minutes one. No, it was an interview on a podcast on ABC, and it was someone that went to meet with her and had a discussion and I would like to just play
a little bit of that. When was there to be pleased the interview? So this was released in twenty sixteen. Okay, yep, so this was on ABC on a podcast called Life Matters. State this wouldn't have happened.
I wanted my mother for Wily to help across his team a number of times prior to befits occurring, and you know, I fell through the cracks, as a lot of women do.
So there's kind of true, like there's your individual responsibility. But at the time when this happened, you told a lot of people what you were thinking about, and nobody helped you. Nobody told Joe, nobody told the police. So how much fault do you place on the people around you.
I don't want to put the fold is mine, you know what I mean. I don't want to put the fold is mine for not listening to people and seeking out.
The mental health support that I should have.
Writed, so you take responsibility for absolutely. Yeah.
So the film that's currently been made, what's in post production of Helen Garner's book Joting Ways Constellation? Yeah, how do you feel about that? Very soon, within the next six months or so, there's going to be a film where you are the lead character.
It's very confronting again to have to relieve all of that, and I do fear that, because it's based on Helen's book, that it won't adequately explore the mental health aspects. I guess there's a sense of I don't know what the what what's going to happen?
So I have a kind of uncertainty.
Have you been contacted by the filmmakers?
No?
Do you wish that you were contacted by them so that you could participate in some way?
Well, on that point of female evans being talked to rather being brother than being talked about, it would have been nice if they've kind of talked to me and I don't know, gained some understanding about where I was at that in that at that time.
Why do you think they haven't.
Because I guess they're not interested. I haven't seen the film, so I don't know what it's what, it's how I'm going to be portrayed. But I guess, like Helen's book, there's a particular angle I assume that they're going to base it on, and so mine wouldn't be relevant to that, especially if you want to paint me is evil rather than mentally ill or there's no need to talk to it.
Do you see yourself as mental as supposed to evil? You know, if you're not right now, but looking back at.
Twenty years, yeah, absolutely off the planet mentally mentally and will. And this is saying that you know, evil is rare, but mental illness is real. You know, having been treated now adequately, I can see just how I'm.
Really unwell I was.
Now. That is a thirty minute interview. I found it fascinating. I think it's a few listeners sent it to us at Chris Audio. I mean you can some of the great audio, but.
I mean, podcast been around very long now, sixteen that's probably good for a podcasting.
But yeah, it is. It is a really, really difficult interview. She says that she was prescribed zoloft and that made everything better. She realized that if she had been prescribed zoloft earlier, none of this would have happened. She blames it all on the doctors that misdiagnosed her, which is heinous in itself because.
Zoloft is an antidepressants.
Great yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
She was claiming far more than depressions.
Oh my god, it was. It was a severe mental health issue, like she was in crisis mode. She was meant to be did quite a few times by her parents. She didn't end up going. That interview is wild. It is. It's just a fascinating, fascinating interview, and I think it is really interesting the way that she talks about Obviously she doesn't blame the other people, but to ask the question were you mentally ill or evil? Is such a
such an interesting line of questioning. I find it really interesting. Firstly, she didn't sound like I thought she would sound. She sounds old, a lot older. When you kind of paint a picture of someone, you.
Go, oh my god, that twenties.
Yeah yeah. And then now she is doing her well. She used to actually finished her PhD on the women in I don't know what it was called, but it was like women are incarcerated, and she talks about this now and she's saying, yep, but there's there's more issues. She continually says in the podcast, there are more issue at stake. It's about women who are incarcerated. It's about the numbers that are increasing. Why are they doing this? And there is no point she goes, I killed Joe Chinque.
There is nothing about that. It is just her continually saying why we're not going to the wider issues, the bigger issues. It's like, because the big issue is you murdered your boyfriend at the time.
What angered me about that snippet there is that she said, Well, if they're basing it off Helen Garner's book, then they won't want to speak to me because they just want to portray me as evil. But you read the book and came out of that saying I have a totally new view on Yeah, yeah, yep, because I understood through reading the book about her mental health struggles.
Yeah. Yeah.
So that's fascinating for her to go, well, she just wants to blame me, Yeah yeah, fascinating.
Yeah, and thank you to all the people that had sent me that, Like that is so interesting as just a point of I guess after you do it. I did not listen to it before I did the episode, which shows what great research I do. But you know, I'm a journalist and you're not. But but yeah, but it was really interesting and we've had, you know, a lot of letters that have come after that as well, like a lot of beautiful, beautiful Internet letters. And we're going to go soon to the letters, but I just
wanted to kind of read this one from a wonderful listener. Renee, does this.
Not us going to the letters now? Then kick it off with this?
Well, you know it's a lot more ating for me, but yeah, sure, Hey, Sammy and g it's Renee again. Just a quick note. In the Joe Chinkway episode, you talked about that terrifying moment of having to call Triple zero without knowing the exact address. Not that that was her issue, but it's such a real world fear. So I want to share a handy tip I learned during my first aid course. Thought you might want to share it with your listeners. You never know when it might
save a life. In Australia, there's an app called Emergency Plus that uses a system called what three Words, which breaks the entire world into tiny three meters squares, each identify by a unique three word address. If you call Triple zero through the app, you can simply read out those three words and the operator will know your exact location instantly. If you can also use the three word address even if you don't call. Sorry, you can also use the three letter word address even if you don't
call through the app by using the emergency plus. It makes it easier because it combines GPS location, what three words, and calling Triple zero all in one go. More info here and she's put she's put the the yeah, the dress below, which I'll put in these show notes stay horrendous, Love you guys, R But yeah, but I thought that was interesting. Yeah, what an interesting thing?
Though?
Was a you know when when you think about how long that call talk.
Well, that's as she said, It wasn't her, that wasn't knew the dress.
Just interesting thing and one thing. Now we're going to go to the bag. Thanks everybody for listening to this week's episode, stunningly recorded over two parts because geez, goddamn phone played up on her.
You didn't have to tell them.
I wanted to tell them that we.
Don't have to be that honest to them. If there's anything you want to have to be honest about it. I could have dressed the same.
I could not have. I have a beautiful lifetime black pants and white T shirt. I can do that again.
If we've learned anything from Andrew Fraser is that it's you don't need to know the full story to get a good story and to be acquitted. So you shouldn't have told the listeners we did in two parts because my friend stuffed up.
Okay, well, thank you for telling me that episode in two parts too. In two parts. It's such an interesting story.
It's just so fascinating. It's just one of those ones that's like, I don't know, I'm obsessed with them. And yeah, Killing Time is amazing.
I need to watch that. Yeah, how old? Is that serious? It's an old one?
Well yes, well, I mean I am making this up here like I'm just guessing. But around about twenty I.
Love that David when God, I love that day. Yeah, diver Dan. He was in Bloody Lord of the Rings.
Diver Dan was in Lord of the Rings. That was his character name, Lord of the Rings, Lord of the Ringsie.
I kept calling him diver Dan.
I would have loved that.
I'm sure are you ready for the mail?
You know I am.
We love, we love hearing from you. Please write in to Sami at just another company dot com dot au. Another way is simply leaving us a voicemail. We call that a speak pipe. Are you ready for this?
Yes?
This one comes from somebody by the name of Bought Ready bought.
Once again from frigid western North Carolina. As far as things go, uh, just reaching out see it if you're aware of a story. It's a story about the McDonald murders that happened back in the seventies at Fort Bragg. That's also in North Carolina, the other side of the state. But as far as things go, there's a great book called Fatal Vision written by a journalists named Joe McGinnis that you should read. I think you guys would have
at least an interesting time covering it. A little bit in controversy that came out after the book was released from a journalist named Janet Malcolm. I'm sure that's also something that you guys could discuss. But appreciate the podcast. You'll be good, be safe, I'll take it easy.
I'm ubsessed.
Voice is amazing, amazing.
I could hear him say, North Carolina.
Yeah, yeah, day but.
We love you, my god.
I love that we have inter It's so good. We had to look into that though.
What a tea?
Like? What a hook?
Yeah?
I mean I'm going to go straight home and research both of them now and.
Bring them to bro. That's all you know about. We've got another speak pipe today that comes from someone who has voice smiled in before. This is repeat yeah from gym Hi.
I am just calling because I just had the most freshening jumps. I got back into my car.
Take it.
I was listening to the friend and May West Mary West.
I think.
Like i'd stopped it when she was in the car class horrific.
She's five, Oh yeah, subjected to that. But I put it back on and.
It went to the part where you gasped so loudly.
And so out of the blue. And I had not.
Under like, like I zoned out because I dropped her off and stuff, so I had no understanding of the context. My car, my home's still raising so fast, Oh my goodness, I was like resting out of the car.
I just went.
Away.
I needed that wake up call.
Anyways, I love you guys so much.
Bye, oh my god, jem I do apologize. I listen back to our episodes and I hear some of my reactions and they're not good.
You're a gasp.
I don't have a poker face nor a poker voice. It sounds it seems I'm really sorry about the job scared Jem, But hey, it's a spooky woekie podcast, so you gotta expect these pink are with this from Ryan that came from on Instagram.
On the Eileen Warnos epp, how beautiful people, Happy Monday? Just finishing your epp on Eileen Ari. The death penalty and extended waiting times, my understanding is there a few factors at play. First is that there are automatic appeals
for death sentences, which obviously take time working through the courts. Secondly, and much more confusingly, federal and state laws and individual constitutional rights are always brought up what is considered cruel and unusual as a means of death, et cetera, et cetera.
So in every individual case that's argued, well, we brought up.
Currently, I believe a lot of inmates are waiting on death row because there hasn't been a viable chemical option for lethal injection. Doctors don't want to play a part in it generally, but would be required to, and drug manufacturers are also somewhat hesitant to sell drugs specifically for death sentence.
It makes a lot of sad.
Interesting though, there's so much that goes into it. Yeah.
Wow's to that Ryan. That's amazing. I was saying, why do people always live on death row for so long?
Yeah?
And we actually got names.
People are listening, who are listening, And we've got this one. I'll land on this one from Renee. Hey, Sammy and g It's Renee from Sydney, the woman who had the frog appear on her fence during the Muppet reference. Oh look Hermie. My Spotify wrap twenty and twenty five just dropped and guess who's it? The top YouTube? Yeah, photo attached, just proof and you attached quite a few photos there. It's so good. Please keep being your amazing selves, you guys.
Rock Mondays and Thursdays are quickly becoming my favorite days of the week. Also side note, I sometimes listen to your episodes out of order, depending on the length. I say, the longer ones the house work, and honestly it makes my weekends so much better. I recently listened to the episode where you talked about the host a murder game missing pieces. Yeah, and I thought you'd appreciate this story.
My parents hosted a host murder party for their combined birthdays and the whole family traveled for it, costumes and all. To make it more dramatic, we made a body out of stockings, foam and balloons, dressed it up and threw it in the pool. Oh this isn't amazing. We did have to warn all the neighbors out of time so they wouldn't spot a body floating from their windows and call emergency services. Thankfully, the party went off without a
hitch and without any lights or sirens. Oh my god, keep being amazing and I hope you both have a wonderful festive season. It's almost time for a Muppet Christmas Carol stay horrendous Renee from Sydney and she listened to five thousand, eight hundred and eighty three minutes This year of us we are the top above the Daily Oz Whatever, the Teacher's Back, the Teachers Trial and Unravel whoa top podcast? How amazing is that? That's a lot of us and we, Oh my god, how good is that?
I love that so many of you messaged us with us in your top five ranking and Spotify we love it. Hey, Sam, I didn't ask you what was your top artist and your.
Top song mister Higgins? Really yeah, mister Higgins and a billy ocean with a big big artists.
Yours obviously the Hamilton.
Listening Agent sixty seven, I think it was.
Mine was twenty six, so young and higher.
You are actually love.
I'm sexy, I'm cute. Well I'm popular too, bood.
That's red food.
Yep.
Can I ask you this question? G love hearing from wonderful, wonderful people on Instagram dot com. We got a huge celebrity follow recently. I'm just gonna oh my god, yes, I'm gonna say a huge celebrity follow recently. I had someone right in and say, hey, there was a reference that you made in the episode. I have to send it to this person because I know them. They sent the episode. I found it because the great thing you level to this about our Spotify is it.
Story has been told perfectly, but it's got the markers.
So I can just go on, Fine, what we're talking about in that time, which is great because we don't do that.
Tell me who this this person said, I'm a listener of yours, and I remember in one of the episodes you were talking about bin Boy.
For those of you who don't know, first of all, go back and god damn list see under Godamn Rock. Sammy his corporate job. His title is bid manager. A friend of his sincerely thought he said bin manager, and then he was working with Bins in his corporate office. That was very funny. Obviously now we call him the bin Manager. We saw a garbage truck drive past one day that said one eight hundred bin Boy, and it had like follow us on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, which we
thought was hilarious. Went on YouTube. There are just videos following this garbage man around doing and we discussed this on the podcast. One day, we got a message on instagram dot com at not Another Crime podcast saying, my friend is bin Boy.
That's why I need.
To play him this snippet of the episode. I said, Hi, thanks for following, send him the whole episode, make him listen to the whole back catalog. Please tell a friend, leave a five star rating, five star review, and then you. Sammy kindly sent her the snippet and bin Boy himself one eight hundred bin Boy followed us on Instagram.
Absolutely huge.
It's huge versus Sammy's career, idol news and his what do you call person?
You like?
Look up to him, want to be like mentor hero. I don't have anyone like that in my life. I am that for myself.
Okay, look in the mirror and tell yourself you're beautiful.
Thank you. I will bin Boy if you're listening, we are big fans and also apparently allegedly some of the YouTube videos now even have speaking yes.
Yeah.
And one of our friends, Franny, who listens to this as well, when we discuss Binboy in the first place, she said, my three year old son is exactly who these bin Boy videos are for. He's obsessed with them.
It's so good to know there's young bin boys out there. That's what I want to know.
He's exciting for you, and you can be the mentor and the hero to Franny's son.
That's lovely to say, that's lovely to say. Hate everyone for listening. We told you how to write into ards leader. Yeah, and as always, as we say before we do the poor repeave as always.
I know, but then people think if wrapping up the episode.
And they'll turn off everyone watch on YouTube. That is great if you want on YouTube.
And then you can watch Binboy afterwards.
That's right. Thank you Oliver Clark as always for doing the goddamn theme music. Thank you for Tams and Hayes for doing the Artworkly a five star rating, five star review and share this podcast with a friend, tag us on social media the morning. Come on, move on.
You're just trying to think of a poor drypeat.
I don't know.
I know I could tell you a padding. Mine is plane related because we were on a plane to Tazzy. It is people who put their aeroplane chairs back on a one hour flight. Don't like it, don't The planes are so small. If you need to sleep on that flight, that's fine. But if you're that tired that you need to sleep in that one hour less than one hour, you don't need to put your chair back for it doesn't do anything and it just makes a person behind you very uncomp Okay.
Well, mine is the people that put the window thing down on the way over. I had someone that put the window down. It was one hour flight.
Maybe they were hot from the sun through the window.
It was late in the days.
Then grow up to grow up and grow up window people.
And I was in the window on the way did you do it? Next to me had that No, I'd never I never put it down. The girls next to me had some dakyries on the way over. What do you mean that dakeriesries? Domestic lackyries? O. Yeah, and they're on schoolies. I'm pretty sure that that's amazing. When Dick had a lovely dogs who's very excited all weekend.
Oh, he's absolutely zonked down because he played with busy Bee for a while. Busy Bee, there is a crime scene around. There is like literally toy fluff scattered everywhere.
Oh god, Digs absolutely rocking it. Anyway, everybody will see you on Thursday. Love you all. Goodbye or your beautiful set of the Mirror Bye,