On the tenth of October twenty and twenty two, a thirty three year old neonatal nurse was on trial. She was charged with seven counts of murder and ten cases of attempted murder, all which took place at the Countess of Chester Hospital between twenty fifteen and twenty sixteen. The magnitude of this story cannot be understated. The victims were just babies. This is the case of Britain's most prolific female child serial killer, Lucy let Be. It's just a disgusting story, it really is.
I'm sure you'll tell it well, but I know the case and it's absolutely horrific.
You're ready. Not really, Oh but I.
Was getting some kisses on my knee from Diggs just then, so that's going to notice.
He knows that we're going to need some support through this year. Yeah. Absolutely. Hey there, everybody, welcome to not Another Crime podcast. I'm Georgia LUs, I'm Sammy Peterson. I'm a journalist. I am not, but you are.
A damn good person.
Thank you for saying that. Dig Dig just opened my legs. I don't like that at all. That's very weird. He's just looking in on you. Can tap him on the nose if you want to stop. It's quite nice.
I've been away for three days.
And he's missed me. He missed you. It's actually really nice. I did the same at the door. Yes, kissed my legs looking motion. It's lovely as you do what you're always Hey.
Guys, if you don't want to listen to us talking about this kind of stuff, you can skip ahead to just listen to the story.
The time is in the show is it is? And I heard from our stickers by Claude today. She was very excited to hear everything on the podcast last week and was very excited that we read out her letter and opened the stickers yet again. We love them.
And guess what, we actually got more stickers this weekend. Magnets from a beautiful list of Alice named Emily, who has left us big.
Pipe on the pod before. Yes, she has.
And I was down in my favorite place on Earth, Tasmania, for a food and wine festival, and this gorgeous girl came up to me with an envelope in her hands that said to Sammy and g and Digs and Paudry and our beautiful listener Emilie heard me talking about fact that was going to this food and wine for in Lonceston and brought a gift with her of stickers and magnets that she had.
Made for us and found me at the.
Festival and gave me them. And I will say, first of all, a huge thank you to Emily. You were so sweet and it's just so beautiful to think of us.
At all at alone bring me presents, and it's.
So lovely to meet listeners out in the wild.
But can I say, Sammy p I'm never going to be able to travel without you ever again, because over the three days I.
Need to send me to carry my things.
Yes, I had an overwhelming number of people come up to me and first of all say they listened to the podcast, which made me so happy.
Everyone said, we're Sammy.
We thought he would be here, So you had Gareth, I did have my friend girl. And we're not allowed to travel alone anymore.
So I'm booking your festival ticket for next year right now.
Thank you so much. You're in advance. Was it amazing? It was so funny. It is just the most fun weekend. This is not spoon anyway. British India and Boy and Bear with a music act.
Oh yeah, ye, fantastic music obviously, fantastic food and wine because it's Tasmanian.
The weather was beautiful.
It's just in a big park in City Park and lncestein and there's food and wine stalls and different stages set up everywhere, and you just like pick a spot for the day. And we just like had our little crew. There were four of us, and then just had friends that live in Tazzy kind of come and go and join us for a couple of hours and then you know, move on some rails and we'd have other friends come and it was just three days of just drinking and chatting and catching up and a.
Son, you have a hot jam donut. I did not have a single hot jam donut.
I had some, okay, no churros, you know, man, I'm not a sweet.
Scallop, That's true. There is a store the whole cake to yourself, the whole birthday cake, and in the rain crying.
Correct a stall there with the funniest name I've ever seen, because it just like in no way makes sense from what I can ascertain.
And that right that broke the internet.
The stalls called smallest Pancakes.
I saw your proper that this smallest pancakes saying the same thing over and again. Explain yourself. I can't explain it. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't explain it.
So funny smallest pancakes.
Festivals with pancakes, pancakes, and they make them for festivals.
Do know? Doesn't make any sense. And me and my grammar nerd friends the funniest thing.
No, you didn't want to find the answers better left and that's my humor.
Too many pluralles, I think is top dear, that's so funny.
Can you tell me about your weekend? I had my own festivallet here at home. Diggs and I had a bottle of jams. We danced Hungry Jack's on the weekend. Oh my, sorry about that.
So Jans is a Tasmanian wine.
Correct. Guess what they didn't have at festival chance they haven't done a few years, because.
They have not done FESTIVALI and this is my formal complaint to Jens. Go back to festivaly, please please, There is no way you're not making enough money from it, because my family and I and all their friends have I'm certain kept you in here. Yes, if you need us to pay more per bottle. We actually always comment on the fact that it's cellar door prices, but at food and Wine festival like it's wild, it's so good, so we always commented about the fact that it was
really affordable. If you need a bump up the prices, We're still going to buy it.
To promise. The girls from Jams came to my comedy festival show The Best Emily Fitzgerald, who I bloody loved. I don't know why I said her last name Emily, and then during oh yeah, then they took me out for drinks at another time and went out to there. They had like a food and wine day in Melbourne
and they took me out for that. I drank my body weight because it was so much fun, and then I was like, like they invited us there, me and my friend Brom But then it was also like we shouldn't drink too m because it will make fools of ourselves and everything. And the only two people that were drinking and not spitting into buckets because there was everyone was professional andons has reminded me of what can we do spitting in a bucket?
Yeah? Can we a big rest in pieces to Catherine.
O'Hara, what's thetoons? What's that?
My favorite line from Ship's Creek is when she said that she took her daughter Alexis on a holiday to France and Alexis goes, yeah, I was eight and it was a whine tour, and she goes, well, you could have used the spittoons like the other children.
I haven't seen all the Ship's Creek what yeah.
Okay, well once we're through sea change, you know.
Yeah.
Because Katherine Ohara, I'm a huge fan of her from improvised films. So the reason I love her is because she was in your waiting for Waiting for her, Yeah, and welcome to golfin whatever that is, waiting for Guffman a mighty wind show, Best in Show for your consideration. She did so many amazing films where she acted in them, but it was improvised, and she's just the funniest person in every film. And then and then you know Beatlejuice
Home Alone, like just an incredible actor, absolutely amazing. I didn't know that she like she's so she was so young as well, like she was just in the studio the TV show, remember, I know, like like in the last year yeah, and it was just incredible, a huge, huge shock. Yeah, absolutely, you know our time.
In Australia waking up and opening up social media and that's.
All that was. I know. Yeah, really, I very.
Rarely get kind of affected by celebrity dance.
Yeah it's sad, but I don't know them, and inact me, this one really really Yeah.
She seemed like a beautiful person, like she seemed just so lovely and.
Said she's just yeah, yeah, like you said, we didn't know she was sick.
She was only seventy one, I know, and I think I think with like Rob Ryaner and like, I mean, it is it is such an awful, awful time in general really and then and then you know these deaths. You know, he's got oh my god, like a comedy and other comedy legend that was just like inspired everybody, like Katine haha, like kind of the understated person in comedy. Yes, every single everyone was like, oh, yeah, she's the funniest person in the world. But everyone said that about it.
I kind of feel something about Julia Louis Dreyfuss. Yes, she's the funniest person. She never get number one, though, but she is like when you actually got to think of her. Yeah, Julie Luid Dreyfit's amazing. Yeah, that is very book in at the moment.
And the character, the main character's cat is called Julia Luis Dreyfust.
It's good a cat name, isn't it. I like it? God, we used to laugh. Hey we still lia We still laugh? Can we talk about that?
This is not a funny topic. This is very serious to me. The last time we recorded, yes, you said, well I was away, yep.
In Lon Sesston, you were going to watch he did Rivalry? Did you do it? Can't tell you what I watched it instead? Morning was You've never what warning was before? Now now I watched an episode back in the day, one episode one fantastic. It's so good. Yes, that's what I'm saying. First season, watch that you got hungry Jacks drank Jans, had a dance party with and watched Weekend of My Life one had a mental breakdown. I watched, I watched That's what. I had a mental collapse, just
dancing with digs More. Morning was give me no, But so I had that on and I got up to the second season. Isn't the first season brilliant? It's amazing. I don't I don't really know where the second season is going, but I'm loving it so far. But yeah, that's how much I watched so No, in answer to your question, I haven't watched Heated Rivalry, but I've seen many memoirs about it. I've seen many gifts about it.
I've seen so much going on with these two homosexual men who play hockey, and I can't wait to see these two homosexual men play hockey, make love, fall in love, and go to the cottage. That's all I all about it.
He knows my close personal friend, Connor Story is hosting SNL this week.
My close personal friend connors Story, Connor Story. Yes is their actual name? Yes? And who's that if? And that's one of the characters, one of the main gays. Yes, I get it now.
Yes, he's hosting SNL. Oh, so we can maybe watch that as you like. Entry into the problem with you not watching it while I wasn't here. Now I'm going to have to watch it with you, and I'm going to be absolutely like heinous to watch it with Oh.
My god, we've got two nights together this week before you head off again and go to Tasmania again.
This weekend this week and I have a wine festival in Hobar.
I'm working at this one. This one is a job, not just pleas here. But that doesn't any way be doing the worm on the dance floor.
Try to bring in the two.
If you can't work, to work and you can't have pleasure, I have work.
You know, as they say, that's actually.
Going to be on my tombstone? Could that be your catchphrase or not? Cat trase? But what what you say when they say madam business or pleasure and you say both? I mean for the wine festival? Is that good? You could say that that could be kind of fun. You could say that no, no heated rivalry just yet. But guys, can you bully Sammy with me? Please?
Get onto your Instagram at Sammy Peterson Unofficial. Get onto our Instagram and our TikTok YouTube not another crime podcast.
Can you freely follow that? You can anyone freely follow that? Yes? Can you just freely follow that?
Freely follow it? And it is free to follow. You don't even have to pay for.
It, rightn' everyone doing that listens to this.
I don't understand. No, I don't know why that.
I can't answer for you because I follow all of them for free.
For free. That's amazing stuff. Okay, so check that out.
And you can follow us and then bully Sammy into watching Heated Rivalry.
I'll tell you what. I'll watch Heated Rivalry if you watch my comedy special. It's on YouTube dot com. Check it out on YouTube dot com. I went to Comedy Republic on the weekend where I filmed my comedy special, and I tell you what drinks were flowing. I got free drinks from all three of the owners.
Oh because compecial they've ever.
Said, they've said and well they haven't said that. I've said that, and they put me in the newsletter this week. It's beautiful. I feel. Yeah, I'm at the top of the newsletter.
You're at the topic godamn game.
Yeah, you're at the bottom, top and bottom heat a rovery reference and I will be celebrating you. Celebrate and watch it right now on the Comedy Republic YouTube channel. I would love Have you watched it? Yes with you? Oh? Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? First got a little first, little tease part of it. Yeah, but I'm very excited about it. That's on YouTube dot com. If you want to watch that, you.
Tonight on my actual TV. WHOA, I'm going and watch it with.
I don't have surround sound.
I live in an old apartment and I don't really care about technology, but I'm going to watch it and maybe like play the podcast on my phone, like on the back of the couch, so theyn it will be surround sound. I guess do you want to come over and sit on the other side of me and then you can talk about.
But if you'll watch my comedy special, go to the Comedy Public YouTube channel. Check that out. Do you love? You've got anything to plug? When's your goddamn podcast coming back? Oh? This one soon? I'vequught a great plug.
Yeah, I can't remember the date that it's launching, but I've got my first interview for season eight of.
More snotting into the microphone like you did last week. Got a great clip of that. Don't worry about that's coming out shit at the time of recording. It'll well thrive. Recording is coming out. It'll already be.
Season eight of Everyone Has An X. My other podcast is coming back.
It is confirmed.
I have my first interview for this season this week.
You got John Goodman, No, not in viewing John Goodman. No, remember your friend, our friend. I'd like to say, our friend. Bam. You didn't pull me up on it, but for some reason really aggresively said our friend. Maam. When I met one of the first times, I said to her, because she's to work with the project, I said, oh, yeah, who have you interviewed Squidward And she goes, no, I haven't because people all night. Bam, reckon, she's interviewed celebrities
at the project. She hadn't even met Squidw. Squidward. Just love for getting slightly wrong before Squidw met Squidward.
Oh, I worked at a place that interviewed celebrities.
If you have an interview, No, you have an Intervieweddquidward. I would like to say as well, thank you to all the people that continually write to us. We bloody love it. We'll be doing the mail bag section at the end. You can write into me at samit just another company, dot com dot au. You can leave us a voicemail. We call that a spig pipe. The links are below in the show notes. I've hearing your voice. We love it. Leave a rating everywhere.
I met another listener at the airport on my way to one says she was going down for festival as well. She is the one that owns the dress shop in Port Douglas, and she'd written us in an email. I mean, you're not another crime podcast listeners out there in the wild. You just never know when you might meet.
I know they'll spring out and get you. You can never be safe in this world. The Port Douglas beautiful frock so I imagine, yes, was she wearing one? Yes? Was she looking good at the airport?
Oh?
She was looking great at the airport.
I was going, okay, guys, I was going to take some photos and put them up on the podcast page, like this is what you can wear at the airport, this is what you can't wear at the airport. But then I realized it's not a nice thing to do to take an unsolicited photo of someone put it on the internet saying this is a bad outfit.
So I didn't do that. I think and maybe wrong on this. It was either Ben Lawrence or one of the many Emmas or Gemmas that listening to the podcast sent in a photo of someone on the plane, Alex Maybe it was Alex oh anyway, but they had a a sparkly hat on the plane and when g would be happy about this sparkly top beautiful.
It was the picture show. Yes with Colombia. No, not great McLaughlin.
Nope. If that's that's another crime, well it was found not guilty. That doesn't mean allegedly crime. Hey, everybody, we're going to get into this episode this week. I want to say that I had not heard of this crime before and it was a real surprise to me. It is a really, really awful crime. There is at the time of recording, a Netflix documentary coming out in just a few days and a huge trigger warning for this episode.
It deals with the death of babies, not even just children.
And by the time you listen to this, the Netflix dotr will be out and hey will either recommend it or we won't. But we can't tell you now because we don't know.
And also, you know, something did all the research for this without even having the docker to watch.
That's right, so some of us is incorrect. No, it's not checked it ready for this. Yeah, wolves are easy toot wolves, wolves like uh huh, those sorts of wolves sharp teeth, yellow eyes, are hunger that shows itself in the way they move. But the most dangerous wolves learn early how to soften their steps, how to lower their gaze, how to wear gentleness like a burrowed skin, like a
borrowed skin. In this place, softness was the uniform. Voices stayed low, hands were careful, Smiles were meant to reassure. Lives small enough to fit in the crook of an arm depended on routines, regular safety, trust, and the unspoken faith that those who stood what through the night were
there to actually protect, never to do harm. No one thought to question the figure who blended so completely into that promise, who spoke the language of care fluently, who appeared when alarm sounded, there to protect, not to harm, who seemed to grieve when things were wrong, grieve with them. This is a story of a wolf in sheep's clothing, not one that proud at the edges, not one that proud at the edges, but one that stood at the
center of the flock. It is a story about how evil does not always announce itself with noise or chaos. You can't always listen for the chickens in the pen, But sometimes it arrives quietly, wrapped in kindness, waiting for the moment when no one is looking closely enough to see the teeth beneath the wall. This is a story of Lucy let Bell.
That was beautifully written.
And I'm tearing up already.
That was really beautifully written. It's just such a fucking.
Woman, I know. Lucy let Bee was described by her colleagues as quiet, ordinary and entirely unassuming. To those who worked alongside her, she was a kind and dedicated nurse, someone passionate about her job, and wholly trusted by the people who depended on her care the most. A clear trigger warning before we go any further on this, Jesus Or already mentioned this, but this is not an easy story to hear or to tell. At the heart of
it lies a deeply unsettling question. Is Lucy let Be a serial killer responsible for the deaths of society's most vulnerable or is she innocent, a scapegoat used to mask profound and longstanding, systematic failures within the NHS. Let Be herself has claimed that her unit was chronically overstretched, dangerously understaffed, and routinely unable to provide the standard of care its patients required. For those unfamiliar the NHS, the National Health
Service is United Kingdom's publicly funded healthcare system. It provides comprehensive medical care to local so to legal residents, with most services free at the point of use and funded primarily through general tax. The NHS is not a single entity, but a collective term for four special our separate systems NHS England, NHS Scotland, NHS Wales. I want to guess the next one, NHS Florida, God, you're so close, and Health and Social Care in Northern Ireland so close though,
just just down the road. G and I are not parents, but this episode deals with themes that you may find deeply distressing, whether you're a parent or not. We encourage you to skip this episode and return to one of our other fun ones if that's what you want to do. I personally found researching this case extremely difficult. As always, we are deliberately avoided including the most graphic and disturbing details. This is not another crime podcast, and there are other
places for those accounts. Our focus here is on understanding the story, not sensationalizing it. In October twenty twenty two, Lucy let Be was accused of attempting to murder twenty two infants twenty two Lucy became known as one of Britain's most prolific child serial killers. The most haunting.
Aspect, sorry to interrupt, even just saying one of is fucking horrible.
I know, I know, but yeah, but we'll go into the other people that the other are in this as well. The most haunting aspect of the story to most is that Lucy does not seem like a serial killer. How many, how not many people really do? We look at Jeffrey Darmer or John Wayne Gacy and there's something about them that you go, oh yeah, that could be a serial killer, and we can see a serial killer in that instant. It's an uncomfortable phrase, but one the media adopted Lucy
Letby's killing field. The hospital at the center of that label was the Countess of Chester Hospital, located in Chester and serving the local population of North Wales. Around two one thousand babies are born there each year WOW, and the hospital includes a special care unit dedicated to providing round the clock treatment for the most vulnerable infants. Historically, deaths at the hospital were rare. In twenty ten, there was just one recorded death of a premature baby WOW.
In twenty ten and twenty twelve there were two deaths each year. In twenty thirteen that number rose to three, and in twenty fourteen there were again three. These figures reflected a unit that by all appearances, was functioning as intended, providing constant specialized care to critically ill and vulnerable newborns. In twenty fifteen, this all changed. The number surged to a staggering eight just in one in one year. The alarming thing wasn't the sudden rise, but the nature of
the death themselves. Before these babies love their lives, they were seemingly stable, only to suddenly deteriorate without any warning. This pattern itself, particularly in a special care unit, is extremely distressing and alarming, not just the people that work there, but also to course the parents. What was particularly striking was how differently the deaths were perceived depending on where
you stood within the hospital. For NHS nurses and doctors on the front line, each death was absolutely devastating, watching families endure the worst moments of their lives. These losses had to be formally recorded, but for those providing care they were far more than just statistics. Each death was deeply troubling and raised serious concern within the unit. And yeah,
I said. Con Then before we move on to how the first alarm was raised by a fellow colleague, I'd like to share with you a bit about Lucy let Be. Lucy was born in Hereford, I believe Hereford or Hereford Hereford Hereford be yeah, I think Hereford. Let's go with Hereford Hereford in January nineteen ninety, making her thirty three years old at the time of her trial.
God.
She attended Alston School before going on to study nursing at the University of Chester. Nursing had long interested her. She'd experienced a difficult birth herself, and her mother often told her that nurses had played a critical role in saving her life as an infant. Oh God. After graduating, Lucy secured a permanent position as a neonatal nurse at the Countess of Chester Hospital at the Neonatal Unit in early twenty twelve. That was difficult to get out. Quite
a few neon natals then done really well. Thank you for saying that. Early assessments of her performance were mixed. Some colleagues noticed gaps in her clinical knowledge and felt she needed to better recognize nonverbal distress in parents. It'll be quite a big part of your role. I imagine as a nurses, you really have to get to know the parents, understand how they're adapting in a situation, if
they are really not coping with what's happening. With a few even describing her manner as cold, so a few people were like, oh, Lucy's quite a cold person. Over time, however, she settled into the role and came to be regarded as competent and well liked. Competent is never a compliment. I think people just go they're competent. It's fine. I think it's fine. It's not like competent at your job.
No matter what that job is, you should be competent, let alone if it's about treating people.
I know. Lucy's upbringing was described as loving, warm and stable. Friend recalled that she was initially quite shy, but once comfortable, she was bubbly and fun. As a young adult, she enjoyed cocktails with friends, salsa dancing, and holidays abroad, including trips to Ibitha. I hate you really do, don't you? Yeah? Thet I think you have, yeah, terrible experience. I hated it. It's just like my least, it's so not me.
That scene and my then husband really wanted to go, so we did and ended up being a big group trip with all his friends and my friend I'm they're my friends as well.
Absolutely, I hated it. We couldn't get like went out one night.
I was duped into thinking, well, no, I was told straight up it's not a DJ. It's just like it's just you know, there is a DJ around them. This place we're going to it was a massive fucking DJ set.
It was horrible. I hated it, and he.
Couldn't get home and I cracked the sheps and burst into tears and booked myself into five Style Hotel for the next night.
Diva we regret. When the investigation began, Lucy was really open with friends and family with what was happening. And even though she was open, it was a massive shock to them. And when she was eventually rested arrested, sorry, they just couldn't believe that because she, like you mean, she told her friends and family, she was open about the investigation that was ongoing, and when she was actually arrested.
About the fact that they were investigating.
Her within the hospital, yes and yeah, these.
Babies have been dying and that's investigating and it's really was she saying, like, you.
Know, oh, how awful is this that this is happening? Well, yeah, yeah while she's on the clock. Yeah yeah, exactly. So yeah. So her best friend commented that she would never believe Lucy did this unless she told her herself. Her family showed the same, unwavering support. For those who knew Lucy, there was no question in their minds that she was incapable of such acts. So everyone around her was like this, No,
there's no way, there's no way. There been no warning signs, no foreshadowing, for shadowing, foreshadowing, nothing to suggest she'll one day be charged with these crimes. To understand what happened next, we need to return to twenty fifteen, when there was a noticeable and deeply troubling rise in infant death on July two thousand. On the second of July twenty fifteen, shortly after the third death, the lead consultant on the war,
Dr Stephen Breery, raised concerns with senior management. His concerns centered specifically on Nurse Lucy let be Wow. Dr Breery had identified a disturbing pattern. Lucy had been present at all three deaths, Yet despite the seriousness of the observation. His concerns were not acted upon. Oh three deaths were already three too many, and still no formal line of inquiry followed. In hindsight, this inaction is difficult to comprehend, but at the time the allegation itself may have felt
almost unthinkable. And you can speak, you know, hindsight is twenty twenty vision right exactly as now.
But yeah, perhaps, I don't know. It's very hard to comment on because I don't know. I don't have any experience in you know, working in hospitals or being no, not any No.
I did my dad's a dock down when I was little.
I used to go to work with him sometimes and like playing with the catheter backs.
It should be a bio. When I was a kid, I used to go to hospitals with my dad and play with the catheter backs. The idea well, well there were like ones that weren't already installed within someone. I would just like, I just want a patient tour.
Yeah, a patient like you know they hang up.
Oh yeah, they weren't a coach person. No, they were like in.
The patient's room, you know, they're like not a catheter Well yes, but a catheter.
That's like, like, not the bag you're playing with the Wii back, I was playing with the Wii bag. Yes, the idea that all I'm asking, the idea that something so deliberate and so heinous could be occurring within a neonatal unit was likely beyond what many could accept as possible. Even so, it remains deeply troubling that nothing was done
at that point. The doctor found this exceptionally frustrating. Over the next few months, there were three more deaths, and the patterns surrounding Lucy being present in all of these deaths now seemed undernighib So.
She must have been the only one who was present at all of them. If immediately this died as.
She was, she was like, I mean, there's other people caring. She is the only one that's been present at everyone. So Infant A and their names have always been suppressed. But like Infant A, if Infant A was there, then Lucy was there, and if there was another nurse there, that the infant under Lucy's care would suddenly die. So this was a pattern that was just emerging. Other consultants started to notice too. Morbidly. It became a question in the office and kind of gallows humor that if a
baby died, was Lucy on duty? Oh gosh, it felt like a joke, but also not. It seemed as though it was just gossip. In February two, twenty sixteen, another consultant, doctor Ravi Jayream, approached the executive of the hospital, chief executive Tony Chambers, with the same concerns. Well, without having spoken to the first Well, I don't know, but it doesn't seem like it. Tony was dubious and told the doctor that he could see how he might view the concerns of his unit as an excuse for the before
of the poor performance of the unit. In a way, Tony Chambers was accusing him of trying to use Lucy as a scapegoat. This carried serious implications. The NHS is a vast and highly bureaucratic system, and over time it appeared that senior leadership came to believe there was no immediate cause for alarm, that operations should continue as normal. Yet between February and we beginning to kiss Diggs, come
up my face? Is someone else? Yet? Between February and May, two more babies die and several others suffered unexplained collapses. The unit was clearly understrained, mistakes were occurring more regularly, critical procedures were being missed, and there was insufficient senior cover on the ship. So like senior leaders, like doctors,
and you know. By this point, the atmosphere on the ward had become unbearable, especially for the frontline staff who were confronting these events day after day and constantly going home with another loss. By the end of June, a team meeting was held to address the vital sorry, to address the rising death toll, and to try to restore morale, reinforcing that their work was vital and they had to keep going no matter what. During the meeting, one detail
stood out. Lucy Leppe showed no visible emotion, which struck some as unusual, particularly given that she was the only nurse who had been present at every fatality. Many would have expected her to be among the most affected by this. After the meeting, the doctor who called the meeting checked in with Lucy privately to ask how she was coping. Lucy thanked him for his concern, but said she was absolutely fine and didn't need to take any time off.
Well that you know what, even if you've just been at work, when you've been on shift, when a baby has passed, let alone a number of them. That in itself should make you not fine, let alone if it's been all being investigated and everything like this.
We'll go into this later. It's kind of a you know that nurses, in particular neo natal nurses formed quite a tight bond obviously with the parents. And this is a really hard thing. But she returned to work the very next day. Wow. So several alarm bells continued to phone Hey, honey, I'm just recording a podcast with Georgia. Honey. Oh my god, sorry I was calling you back. OK, you're on the podcast right now. Anything you want to say many.
Yeah, I saw you on the Jeffrey Epstein email.
Okay, that's good.
Have Meg Yeager on the podcast. Everywhere Great Comedian festival. Show's touring all around Australia. It's that's not any good indication of Meg how quick she is. All right. After that, after the meeting, a doctor checked in with Lucia Sorr. I've already been through this so at this time, several alarm bells. I have just been accused of something quite awful.
Do you want it to take this opportunity to tell me and the listeners whether.
You were in the Jefferypstairs, I'm not.
Why won't you make argondo I am in the emails?
So several alarm bells continue to ring for this doctor. You should need to take time off, even if you're questioning your ability at this time. Now, Lucy is somewhat seen as a bit of a closed book. She came across as a very guilty person because she didn't show any emotion or react in the regular ways you would expect in such tragic circumstances. We've kind of been through this before, but sometimes people don't behave in the way
you're expecting them to. The evening, Doctor Breery contacted the head of nursing for Also that evening. That evening, Dr Breery contacted the head of nursing for the Urgent Care Division, a woman by the name of Karen Reese. He told her plainly that Lucy needed to be immediately taken off his unit, that he believed that she was responsible and that something needed to change right away.
So straight up, I think she's responsible, not even there might be something going on.
I think she's responsible. But once again, Karen dismissed the concerns and said that Lucy posed no threat to patients and without concrete evidence, they would not be able to act. And you know what, it.
Is hard like if you want to kind of play devil's advocate for all, which is the wrong term, because there's you know, there's no advocating for something that's done this.
But at this point they didn't know whether she had or not.
You look at that as someone who's in charge of the unit, I suppose, and you go, well, we can't assume that somebody is doing this.
So I mean, I'm saying it.
I disagree with it as i'm saying it, but I suppose she's probably looking at that and saying, well, you can't just tell me that I've got to take someone off exact we don't have any proof of anything.
I can't just you can't just reach someone someone of multiple murders. No, you can't rip someone off the unit and just be like, look, these are the reasons why. Because the doctor's suspect.
Which is hard to say because now we know that obviously she was. You know that that was the case, but if it wasn't, imagine that story you know, some person has been present for all these tragedies happening, and we've accused her exactly for any justification of that Karen's decisions in that moment, I suppose it was probably.
That, I guess exactly. Karen then said that if anything were to happen with Lucy that she would take personal responsibility for it.
Wow, she backed to that, back to that much far out.
The next day, another baby collapsed and Lucy again was on ship the next day. Next day, consultants continued to mount pressure against the hospital and finally Lucy was moved to administrative duties administrative, well administrative. There was a huge relief at the time for all of the consultants and the nurses. Despite moving her, the hospital was not going
to take any further action. The hospital told the concern staff that the action they were taking was to move her to administrative duties and they had done their due diligence. They then asked the staff to stop emailing them on the matter.
So there's multiple people going no, no more needs down and then stop it with the day.
In fact, I think it was seven consultants. Wow. I don't know if I'm pulling that name out of my arsenal, but I feel like it was about seven arsenal arsenal. In a situation like this, proof is essential. But by this point there appeared to be a growing body of circumstantial evidence. The pattern could not be ignored. And this is the thing we've discussed with this as well.
And I feel like I say it often when people argue about you know, trials that are on at the moment and people are following in the medium people, but it's only circumstantial, yes, but that is still evidence. Circumstantial evidence is that there have been cases found only circumstantial, so you can't discount that either.
Well, the pattern could not be ignored, and to prevent history from repeating itself, the common theirvariable had to be removed, and she was. After Lucy was reassigned, the whispering on the ward reached her. She filed a formal grievance against seven consultants I didn't pull it out of my asshole there, arguing that her removal was the was her removal from
the unit was based on unsubstantiated accusations. In her complaint, Lucy said that after returning from annual leaves, she felt excluded and professionally devastated by a decision in which she had no say. While she acknowledged that staff had the right to raise concerns, she said that those concerns did not need to be discussed openly in a way that caused her significant distress. Behind her back, she was labeled the angel of death awful, a term that eventually it's awful,
a term that eventually made its way to her. By this stage, many consultants had turned against her, and the pressure continued to intensify. Disparaging comments were made about Lucy in private, many of which later reached her. Lucy maintained that she remained Lucy maintained that she remained professional throughout her reassignment, but said the isolation and secrecy surrounding the situation began to take a toll on her mental health
and her confidence. She made it clear that she wanted to return to the unit where she had trained and began her career. Now. When Lucy's complaint is received, senior management takes it very seriously. Two of the consultants must go through mediation with her, and all seven of the accused consultants are forced to write an apology letter to Lucy let be or that they would be reported to
the General Medical Council. The consultants believed that this was a patient safety violation, but they needed proof, so Lucy herself was a safety violation. All they saw was a failing ward based on data. So that's kind of what the senior management going. It's just darted. This is what we're seeing right now. They did have clear evidence that Lucy had been treated unfairly in the workplace, so they needed to act on that first. This is just like
it's just they're treating it like any other company. It's just like that HR thing instead of like infants are dying. It seemed like the easiest thing to be able to deal with. The unit was more and more understaffed. It was like they didn't have the time to get the evidence once another tragedy occurred, so they just had to move on so quickly. That was too understart to deal with it.
All.
Seven consultants ended up sending Lucy an apology letter. However, they stated this came from a fear of the most important thing, the patient's safety. The consultants themselves were extremely irritated that they had to go through with writing an
apology letter to someone they believed was guilty. And it does not go unnoticed that while Lucy was on a ministry of duties can you guess, yeah, these sudden deaths and collapses seemed to disappear, and so as a result, the consultants did not drop the issue and continually asked for a formal investigation. Eventually, the hospital caved in, yeah.
We're talking about children dying.
And asked the Royal College of Pediatrics and Child Health to conduct a formal review.
Only after all of this, all of this, Jesus.
The review found that the hospital may have downplayed the full extent of the concerns raised about Lucy let Be, but because of how badly the hospital was being managed due to staffing issues and resources, there was no evidence in the cause of death in any of the cases. So this is extremely frustrating for all of the consultants. On one hand, their fears were slightly validated, but on the other it looked as if Lucy would be getting away with something they believed she was very guilty of.
The reviews sorry, so was it kind of saying the core of death aren't the same in each of the cases, so we can't possibly say that they're linked.
Yes, yeah, but there are definitely issues right here. Yeah, okay, but it could be because of resourcing, it could be because the understaff.
Yes, yeah, there's nothing enough to show that it was a person.
I think more that critical procedures are being missed right. The review suggested an external, independent review should be carried out for each of the deaths. I was surprised that this isn't something that actually already happens with a death, but I guess this goes back to the running of the hospital and how the NHS was performing at the time.
As a result of the review, the hospital decided that they would stop accepting any babies under thirty two weeks of gestation until management was properly sorted out what happens to those premies then to hospitals. This was a huge blow to the consultants. The senior management will now utterly convey so the tragedies were in fact caused by Paul management and not by something more sinister at play. This
fed into exactly what Tony Chambers thought earlier. He believed that Lucy was a convenient person to pin all of this on.
They saw the data of who was working on She saw that there was a common denominator and went.
Ah, we can pin it on her, we can put it on her. Because of the review, the hospital management decided not to go through with the external reviews. As a result, the consultants in April twenty seventeen formally reported their fears to the police. Wow, they had to go. They had to go to police. Fun the only way they're going to get listened to. Chester Police launched a
formal investigation and invite to Dr Dewey Evans, a retired pediatrician. Now, okay, I should make it clear here that he had heard what was happening and he volunteered his services. He was a retired person. But actually i'll do it on behalf of the police.
Right, Okay, who understands the industry? Yes, well, they just don't understand how that all works.
He was watching the Lucy let me think from a farm when I want to. Yeah. He made it very clear that he didn't want to be made aware of any police or hospital's feelings that may sway. You know, he's such a doctor and his daughter was just playing with the catheter bags and the patients in the hallway. Doctor doctor Evans was given a record of record, sorry of thirty babies. For half of them he was able to find a very clear explanation of their death due
to infections or hemorrhages. For fifteen of these he could not provide an explanation of what had occurred. So half, So those parents.
There's fifteen families whose babies have died and they haven't even been told why.
Well, this was of of thirty. This was of the thirty that were given, So there's way more than that. Yeah, it was a suddenness of the deterioration that didn't add up. He noticed in some of the cases the baby showed signs of air embolisms in their system, which to him, he believed that this could not be accidental. Is that like a bubble like yeah, so injected with air. So air would have had to be injected into them for
this to happen. God or God. One isolated case might not have really concerned him, maybe even too, but several babies showed the same patterns, so this became really concerning to him. Some of these babies also showed signs of being overfed, with which a premature baby could not handle, so they would have a certain amount, but they know what to do and not to do exactly, so you know, so a certain baby would have like this amount of milk and then overfared it would throw up and everything.
So it was just like this cycle is gone. This isn't right. So there's clearly a problem. But was their intent. That's what they had to find out. He also found signs of direct trauma in some of these cases, bleeding around the mouth or the back of their throats, which could be caused by a breathing tube being forcibly inserted or removed, causing catastrophic bleeding. Now, these findings were extremely alarming, not just to Hymn but also to the police as well.
So he took this to the police and they went, oh, we have to look into this. It was enough to pull even more case files, particularly a pair of twins who both deteriorated rapidly after their blood sugar levels dropped. At first, it looked ordinary, which is why it was missed. But when their blood was tested, they found a high level of insulin, the kind that could only be present
if it were administered externally. They knew this because when insulin is produced naturally, the body also produces see peptide in equal If there is far more insulin than sea peptide, then it proves that the insulin was actually administered externally. For doctor Evans, this was the most damning evidence so far, both twins. Yeah, police now had seventeen unexplained debts and sixteen suspicious collapses.
And sorry to be ignorant, but collapses means like a collapse in their condition.
Yes, yeah, yeah, not necessarily dying, but but yeah, but like deterioration that just went crazy, and it was if an alarm went off and sometimes you know, I was explained later, sometimes an alarm was turned off weirdly in the room, but sometimes you know, yeah, yeah, so this was this was this was the thing. But it's actually the two insulent cases where they can pinpoint who was there for those two tragedies. Oh wow, and no surprises here, it was Lucy let Be, who was a common factor
in both of these depths. Now, the insulin collapse occurs within minutes, so whoever did it must have been on shift. And of course they can pull the rosters or for UK people, rotors they call them rote Really, yeah, what does that mean? It's just the same yea just wrote her and they can see that Lucy was there every time. They then crossed reference the other incidents and the same pattern appeared by the force cap. By the fourth case it was proven, and by the last case it was absolute.
So the police now had to arrest Lucy Leppie. On the third of July twenty eighteen, police knocked on Lucy's door, three years after this or started, Yeah God, who answered and was extremely calm, not panicking at all, and did not protest her innocence. As she was taken to the car, she politely asked if she can have her seat move forward as she recently had knee surgery. Even throughout the interviews, detectives all said she didn't panic at all and was
really cooperative the fuck. Meanwhile, police began searching Lucy's home. Her bedroom was decorated in pink and white, with Teddy de bears on the display, glittery photo framed slogan artwork, and fairy lights. At the age of thirty three, Yeah by all appearance as an ordinary, unremarkable room. Many reports later focused heavily on the teddy bears and the seemingly juvenile decorps, but It's difficult to see how that alone would ever prove anything. Of course, it was certainly not
the smoking gun investigators were looking for. What they did find, however, was much more significant. Hidden under a bed were two hundred and fifty seven confidential hospital documents, including handover sheets, medical notes, and oxygen reports.
Oh my god, I don't remember this detail.
Eight of those documents related directly to babies who had died or suffered unexplained collapses. Police also recovered a series of post it notes and a diary entry that read, I killed them. Oh my god, I did this. I am evil? Oh my god. Now these notes looked like confessions. Others were questioning her guilt. Was this me? Did I do this? Am I evil? Lucy explained later that she
was surprised to see the police. That she was kind of sorry that she was surprised to see the police, but she kind of was expecting it after all the investigations. At the same point, she kind of known the investigations and whispers were happening about her at the time. She too, you know, she she's talking about it. She was talking about it. She'd been dulls. She was talking. She was talking about it. With her family, talking about with her friends.
They were just surprised when she was actually arrested in isolation. The body cam footage showed a cold, detached and unemotional person. And for the documents under her bed, they do look suspicious, almost like trophies. But she explained that these documents maybe were kept in her pockets and she kept throwing them under the bed after her shift. She had a shredder at home and was going to shred them, but she hadn't got around to it at that point. She hadn't
got around to that batch at that stage. I don't know if that's a thing. I don't know if nurses do. I think you know as I wouldn't think so.
I'm pretty sure you can't take any like hotel hotel hospital documents home from the hospital.
I would you ever be doing well as a nurse. I imagine you're on your feet all the time. You could just put something in a pocketols them. I don't know. Maybe it could happen, but I.
Feel like even if you've done that, you take it back to work the next day, even if it's to be shredded.
Read it there. Yeah, it's not your document to happen.
That's true.
As for the diary, she explained that she was in a really deep depression after all the rumors, whispers and investigation. Her GP advised her that she should keep a journal of what was happening, not because she'd intentionally done anything wrong, but because she should keep track of her emotions. She had been made to feel inadequate as a nurse, and the constant constant, the constant whispers behind her back made
her feel more and more isolated. As well as the notes and documents, police also found that Lucy had searched for the parents of the babies online thirty one times, sometimes immediately after their death or even on anniversaries of their death. Again, this can be argued that she was feeling an immense amount of guilt. It could be normal behavior as nurses form a type bond with her parents and want to check in. Another weird thing is she
had written bereavement cards. That's not weird in itself, but she actually taken photos of all the bereavement cards that she wrote, and she had copies of them. She kept them as a trophy. Oh now, police, sorry, now, now. The police did not believe that Lucy fit the profile of a killer. You know, someone who will commit these heinous crimes. Either the police had it wrong or evil
can truly exist in places you've never expected. She's routinely described in the media as the Vanilla killer because of how ordinary and boring she is. Oh, I hate that. I hate that. I hate that.
Just that is so awful to the parents and life loved ones of victims, just to be like, oh, she's boring, she's born.
I'mrittis not bort.
Like, there's nothing boring about these people's lives and what has happened to them exactly.
By this point police were convinced that Lucy was guilty. Wow. Colleagues and even parents cited Lucy being by the bedside of these babies just before incidents occurred. This was really damning for Lucy. There was a lot of circumstantial evidence. On the tenth of October twenty twenty two, Lucy's trial began and went for ten months what at the Manchester Crown Court, And.
God, that's a long time after So she was arrested in twenty fifth eighteen and the trial was four years later far out.
It was one of the longest trials in British History who. Lucy was accused of murdering seven babies and the attempt to murder of fifteen. Ludy Lucy pled not guilty to the chargers. The prosecution's evidence centered around the blood tests results showing insulin Please insulin are poison into infants. Everything else they argued was supporting the fact that she was guilty. The names were anonymous in the case. The infant's names were assigned a letter from A to Q so q
my God. The first case was that of A and B born prematurely, who were progressing well. Lucy was assigned the designated nurse for child A. Things deteriorated in a couple of hours the shift, so the nurse who had the shift of child A had passed. Child B also passed in a similar way after an oxygen tube was dislodged. Now I won't go to any more details of the babies here. It is horrific and even if accidental, not something that we ever need to go into. I've done
this research so you don't have to. Each child seemed to be progressing well, and then in each case there seemed to be a chain progress. Child G had been overfed Lucy could have snuck in with her monitor being turned off and not logged the other feed. The details go on and on, so what really had happened. It was all circumstantial really apart from.
The and it was not the same cause of death in me exactly.
Yeah, there was overfeeding, there was all this other stuff, but it was also constantial. Basically, Lucy was the only one of two nurses on duty on several occasions. Lucy was a common denominator in these In the incidents, both prosecution and defense as well as Lucy agreed that the insulin levels found in the infants could not have been possible without the sea peptide rising too. But all Lucy said in her defense was all I can do is speak for myself and that I did not do this bravely.
Some of the parents testified in court, Oh god, those poor people. There was also testimony from another nurse who found Lucy watching and doing nothing to help in a clear emergency. Over the ten months each case was discussed a to Q, the prosecution was able to show a graph showing that each time a child collapsed or died, Lucy was there. The pattern was far too consistent for
it to be a coincidence, every single one. The prosecution was very careful not to claim that this was statistical proof of her guilt, but it was one brick in the wall, although a very heavy one. The defense team, of course scrutinizes evidence, but not in a way that seemed to sway the jury. While this was really persuasive material, A group of setians stated after the trial that the
data was essentially meaningless and flawed. They explained that the chart didn't control for basic variables, which child was the sickest on which days, which nurses were actually assigned to, which infants, which nurses regularly worked with the sickest children, and did look Ucy simply just work more ships. If you didn't control for those factors, then the chart is very misleading. It also shows a very small amount of data.
In other words, they went with the assumption that Lucy was guilty and then leant into evidence to support that theory. Lucy spent fourteen days under cross examination. She was calm, maintained her innocence, softly spoken, and rarely showed any emotion. Her core defense was that she didn't do anything wrong and she was being used as a scapegoat for the wider failings within the ward. When she was pressed for specifics, she struggled to answer any kinds of questions or elaborate.
You would expect her to have some kind of explanation in her defense, which she did.
Not, especially after four years exactly of standing accused of something, if you really really didn't do it, you think you'd have a pretty clear argument as.
To what you think happened exactly, you would. Yeah, it was not persuasive enough for the jury. She said that it was all due to understaffing, a stressful environment, under resourcing which led to shortcuts being taken every time in medical procedures. This almost cemented her guilt. After ten months, the trial ended on the tenth of July twenty twenty three. The jury began their deliberations after twenty two days. They returned with a verdict twenty two day. On top of
the ten months same jury throughout. On August thirteen, twenty twenty three, the jury found her guilty of seven murders and six attempted murders. Three of the counts were left undecided. Lucy was sentenced on the twenty first of August twenty twenty three to fourteen life orders. She's only the fourth woman in British history to receive that kind of sentence, along with Myra Hinley and Rosemary w Wow. The court
accepted her behavior as deliberate. This didn't bring back the losses, of course it didn't, and it wasn't a satisfying ending for anyone, because what was the fucking motive? Yes, birthdays never reached first steps, that never happened. Lucy refused to attend the verdict for her sentencing, she did not have to sit through witness statements. Lucy argued that she had PTSD from the trial. She also claimed that she suffered from anxiety so bad that she couldn't bear it anymore.
The families ended up calling Lucy cowardly for not coming. She should take some accountability. The prosecution did not have to prove a motive. But the story doesn't end there. After the trial, online salutes and psychologists tried to answer the idea of motive. Yeah, because you're right.
You don't have to prove a motive. But it is just human nature.
Exactly you want to you want to answers, Oh God. One theory was that Lucy was seeking a thriller, wanting to play god. Others have argued that she had a fascination with causing grief and the emotional process of grieving. Did she become obsessed with this? Another theory is jealousy. She was thirty three, lived alone, and perhaps overcome with jealousy of happy families. Oh, I hate that theory. Fuck off. You can be thirty three and not have a family,
and that doesn't make you kill people exactly. And that was his online sleuth coming out with all these different motives. One more theory is this might have been an attempt to get closer to a doctor who she was deeply interested in. After the events, the doctor would shower her with praise and say what a great job she did under high pressure. The doctor's name is written in her diary with love heart surrounding her. Oh. They grew closer
and closer over time. Their interactions were very limited because he was married and had kids, and perhaps she engineered these events to get closer to him. Hope that's not true. When the case was unfolding, this particular doctor stood by her the whole time. Allegedly, when the case was unfolding, he even sent her a text you are one of the few nurses across the region, and I've worked pretty much everywhere that I could trust with my own children. Shit.
He even offered to write her a statement to vouch for the quality of her care. He also kept her informed of the internal review about her that was happening and that was going on at the time, so she could stay ahead of.
The game, which doesn't seem like doesn't.
Seem legal dovent Anyway, when the doctor was called to testify, by this point though he had turned against her. Oh, this was one of the only times that Lucy herself showed emotion, breaking into tears, which kind of proves a little bit about that per So, even though she was being sentenced, the investigation still isn't over. Police continue to investigate and review her clinical footprint. How far did it go? New charges might still follow.
Wow for damage cause exactly.
In twenty twenty four, Lucy went through a retrial on baby K the assertion that the baby was active and might have dislodged it themselves, so dislodged this pipe. But she was found guilty in the retrial again and giving an additional life sentence. Since the trial, the hospital's implemented an entirely new senior management team.
Yeah, I reckon.
They still haven't lifted the restriction of accepting babies under the thirty two week gestation period.
So even though someone an individual has been found guilty for being responsible for these, the hospital itself won't.
Take apparently, Yeah, it's all understaffing since the trial. Sorry. The case has been likened to Harold Shipman, who killed over two hundred patients in the late nineteen nineties to early two thousands. Doctor death. Well, yeah, the British doctor. Yes, yes, in not the one that the TV show was based on. In February twenty twenty five, when a major press conference was held that Lucy sorry sorry. In twenty twenty five, a major press conference was held that Lucy let Be
was in fact one hundred percent innocent. It was held by Dr Shue Lee, a Canadian professor, and fourteen international neo natal specialists independently. They said that they were deeply concerned about how the medical evidence had been interpreted at the time. Their conclusion was that there was no medical evidence whatsoever in any of the seventeen cases. In their view. They said that every single collapse or death was explained by natural causes or failure of care in an overstretched unit.
During a press conference, doctor schue Lee said he disagreed when the retired pediatrician volunteered their services, so he disagreed completely with what they said. As for the alarm that was turned off, well that was the only one as it was only one of the nurse's testimonies. Another said that it wasn't turned off. The panel expanded on their findings and, like I said before, found Lucy one hundred percent innocent and that none of the cases were caused
by direct hum. The panel offered the information freely for Lucy's defense to use. Her defense team took it extremely seriously, which means that Lucy could be eligible for retrial. In July twenty twenty five, police arrested three senior hospital staff members on suspicion of causing death of serious negligence. Their names have not been released as far as I could find, but is being taken extremely seriously Lucy. Lucy does now have a glimmer of hope in the future if she
is indeed innocent. It also opens up families to a further hurt and anguish. Of course, it does there is a brand new Netflix documentary about this. By the time this is released, will be available. The tragedy of Lucy let Bee is not only in the lives lost, but is in how we deem the unthinkable that harm could come from someone whose role was to protect the most vulnerable. I'll do the harm could be from someone whose role
was to protect the most vulnerable. Whether you believe her to be guilty or not, it either shows an evil, monstrous person, perhaps without a motive or deep seated issue within the NHS. If found guilty. Again is the reminder that cypistems built on trust must also be built on vigilance, because when a wolf wears the clothing of a healer,
the cost of disbelief can be catastrophic. That g is the case of Lucy let Be and babies eight a Q, whose names have been suppressed, but the poor families are absolutely at the front of our minds in today's episode.
Oh God, this is such an awful one, so hard to even kind of put into words what I think and.
Feel about it. I know, I know, just so devastating. I mean so that I'm interested to see this documentary that's coming out. I mean, we're recording before it comes out. But what I was interested in because I was like, oh my god, she's guilty. And I started to write the story and then I went, imagine if she's not, like I mean, in a in a wild world where she's not, If these.
It is the common she's there, but it is just a coincidence if that is the case.
But if she is guilty, what a monster. I just don't understand the motive at all.
No, but again, you don't know, that doesn't have to be proven. She would be you know, obviously not right in your head. I mean, oh god, I don't I feel weird even commenting on it.
I don't know.
I've had very close friends have premature babies.
I very close friends have stillbon babies.
And that is my closest.
Association with that, And that breaks my heart.
Do you think about And.
That's just an association with people who have been who've suffered through that.
I cannot imagine.
Someone losing a child and finding out that someone wants to blame for that.
Yeah, so devastating. Yeah, absolutely, and and that just the families being there going this is the person. That's why kind of talking about the wolf at the start, because it is like, that's literally the person, that's literally the person that was there, Like and if you see that, if the disguise you don't know that, of course not. Why would you ever question the person who's exactly and you know exactly yeah, like you know, put her life towards doing that.
It's not a job like you know, you've got your office job and all, this is the job you've got to do today. No, that is like, you know, nurses are just the most incredible humans on earth, I think usually to make that decision to dedicate your life to literally saving people and doing their jobs that so many other people don't want to do because of their devastation, you'd see, it's so hard because I can't. It's really difficult to play devil's advocate to use that term again and.
Go, oh, but what if she's not? But fuck, you're right, yeah, what if she's not?
But I don't know, it's interesting, sorry to interrupt you.
The thing about the panel of fourteen independent doctors that immediately my mind went to the Lindy Chamberlain case where independent people afterwards came to the fore and said, well, hang on, no, we don't think that because actually didn'go's behaviors are proven.
To do this, blah blah blah.
And that was a case of a lot of independent people coming out and saying, no, we work in the field, and we don't believe that. That's just given me a glimpse like a reminder of that. You also, like I just desperately want to have and trust in the legal system. Yeah, to believe that it did the right thing and it made the right decision.
Who knows, you know, there could be another retroil, Like who knows that in you know, another ten years, people might be looking back and going what the hell? Like either way, like I mean, if she if she was found innocent, that's a wild thing to have happened. But also if she's found guilty, it's just such a monstrous, awful thing. Yes, you know, as a thirty three year old just you know, have done this and whatty three.
By the time she was arrested as well, it was happening for three years.
Yeah. Yeah. And also like we all have to do the Harold Shipman at some point. I mean, you know, the idea of this podcast is we have to space some of these episodes out of me. You know, we can't. We can't just do doctors. We can't do you know, because it is so awful to go through some of these and this one was particularly hard just to investigate and stuff, because it's like as you go into the graphic detail and the nature of it, you go, oh my god, like it is so awful, and there are
other places to find that sort of information. We don't want to talk about that because it is so devastating, and I think I think I said enough in there. It's just like it it's so awful what these poor families went through. It's just horrible. Yeah, I'm looking forward to watching that documentary. Same, Yeah, I would be interested to see what what kind of conclusion they make in the documentary.
Yeah, I know, in articular, I don't know if my friends I won't say the names, but to my friends I know who listened to this podcast religiously, I don't know if they listened to this episode.
They've both got children.
And that this might be a bit too upsetting for them, But I know I have spoken to each of them about Lucy let Be before and they very much say, you know, she's a fucking monster, yes, yeah, yeah, Yeah, the most horrible kind of monster you can even fathom. Yeah, yeah, so that's certainly my you know, was my knowledge and understanding of the case before. So I'm really interested to
see this documentary. I'm also interested to see how because we cast this offen with a documentary, it is, you know, there is always bias kind of.
Brought to it. Whoever the filmmaker is, yes, will kind of welcome more.
Is it?
Really? That would be quite amazing. I wonder if they lean just keep talking about Flint, Michigan. Why about Flint Michigan so much? Now that's where you grew up.
It's got nothing to do nothing, literally, I wonder if that will lean into or not lean into brother we'll explore the assertions that she may not be guilty, or if it's going no, these are the facts, this is what a jury has discovered.
This, this is the fact she's a monster, which is you know, what they should do. I just find it interesting if they are so up to date and they discussed the review that was undertaken. I mean, it's really interesting that a panel came forward volunteered to say that, and that That's why I thought it was important to say that the original pediatrician did he was retired, but he did volunteer. Yes, so the police didn't go to him. He volunteered and that was his evidence that he found right.
And so that could be seen as a coulde Yeah.
That could be a strange thing. But also then you know, doctor Shirley from Canada came out and said there is no way that we can say this as and also included fourteen other neonatal specialists. I just find it really interesting. I just wonder what that compulsion was for them to come forward and say that, because why are you disagreeing with another? You know? And and the justice system was
one month trials, yes, where they were found guilty. So that's that's I just found that really interesting as a kind of a footnote to this case that we don't know what's happened or by the leader of the all we do.
Yeah, but it's important to talk about It's interesting maybe to talk about the fact that other people disagree.
Yes, yeah, wow, Yeah, isn't it a fascinating story if we're researching that one? Because I didn't want to yeah, yeah, reasons for me is anything?
Yeah, yes, oh god, it's just awful. It's just hort and the thing this is exactly what you said. No matter what comes out of that, it does not change the fact that these families have gone through this, and that they've lost their babies, oh my.
God, and that you know, at the most critical time of their lives as well, you know, like it was the saddus. I want to end, and I wrote this again at the end, just my introduction for that. Again, I just wanted to read it the end again. Wolves are easy to spot, sharp teeth, yellow eyes, a hunger that shows itself in the way they move. But the most dangerous wolves learn early how to soften their steps, how to lower their gaze, how to wear gentleness like
a borrowed skin. In this place, softness was the uniform. Voices stayed low, hands were careful, Smiles were meant to reassure. Lives small enough to fit in the crook of an arm depended on routines, trust, and the unspoken faith that those who stood what through the night were there to protect. No one thought to question the figure who blended so completely into that promise, who spoke the language of care fluently, who appeared when alarm sounded, who seemed to grieve when
things went wrong. That was the story of a wolf in sheep's clothing, not one that proud on the edges, but one that stood at the center of the flock. It is a story about how evil does not always announce itself with noise or chaos, but sometimes arrives quietly, wrapped in kindness, waiting for the moment when no one is looking closely enough to see the teeth beneath the wall. We're back with a mail bag section in just a moment. Hey, everybody, it's a mail bag section.
She eats a mail bag, eats the mail bag.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. The first Internet letter comes from gem up with a J. There's so many, so many gems and as Sammy and g this is Jemma with a J. But if you can call me Emma with a silent J whatever, hah. I want to commend you both for your story on the clut Up family murders, in particular not making a joke of the name Dick Hickcock. Incredible restraint and honestly I'm proud of you both. Thank you, girl.
I have a question. Do you ever have a moment where you listen back to something and think, I wish I'd made that joke there. I re playing moments all the time in my head as well as making jokes along with YouTube. It really feels like this is a dinner party where you put out the extra chair for us lucky folk. Love you both, jem Emma with this island.
JA, Oh my god, that's one of my favorite messages.
That great.
We love that really really really love when people say. It feels like they're yeah, that's what we do.
That's also very funny.
Yeah, I thought when we were talking about a horrible murderer, we shouldn't make a dick hickcock joke.
But I mean it's there for you. I know, that's up to you. Off Mike, you can say that, you can giggle along kick. But she said, yeah, do you ever do you ever make jokes? You go, oh god, I wish I could. Oh yeah, so often. You know it's funny as well.
I'll like listen back to my episodes because you do all the editing. Yeah, so you listen while you're editing. I will then listen to the finish thing when it's out there. You know, what's my theater and what's not for you know, when people message us and to respond and everything and I'll hear you say something, and as I'm listening, like in my car or whatever, I'll kind of in my head comment what I think of a comment, and then I hear myself in the recording comment.
I'm just like, oh, yeah, I am.
Just myself and that because I've thought of the same comeback right now as well.
And I already did this one come from Nicola. What a fabulous episode. This is a John Ronson episode. Oh yeah, John Ronson. John brons from John Ronson is such an interesting man. Really appreciate this great listen. Thank you, I mean Georgia, Oh, thank you. We love, we love John Ronson. That was so much fun. Oh.
I went straight to work after that recording, and I was a bit hag and I went and I was.
Like, I'm sorry, actually no, no, I wasn't late.
But it was one of their girl's birthdays, so I had said if I could come in early, I would, And I.
Said sorry, I didn't make the birthday cake a bit but and I was like this, guess who I just interviewed, John ron said, And.
Everyone was like, oh, I don't know who.
That is something to say everyone. There was just a couple of people work like, oh, I don't know who that is. Sorry, And I was like, don't take away my sparkle. I was so excited coming behigh of that. Oh my god. Those people are uncle, yeah, grow up. They don't know. This one comes from Vicky. You ready for this.
I thought i'd ring an ad for the person that wrote in about the movie Evil Angels that it came from a book called Evil Angels by John Bryson has a lot of information about the investigations as well. For my memory, I had to study it in the early nineties for Year twelve English.
Oh my god, So that's about the one about Lindy and Michael Chambers.
Actually, my sister said to me.
About the film, about the film, Yes, yeah, even Angels, she said, that's why that cat cry.
You know, the catchphrase the Dingo's got my baby.
That's why that's so famous infamous America was because of Meryl Streep saying it.
In the movie. Oh wow, that's.
Why it's misquoted because apparently in the movie she says something goes stole my baby or whatever the misquoting is that she says in the movie. And that's why on like Seinfeld and The Simpsons and stuff that's so quoted as the Australian thing because it's Meryl Streep doing it in this Australian accent and.
That kind of that's kind of what made it even more famous than just the itself check because we have said we want to watch. I just can't imagine it's good. I know, I.
Feel like, if Meryl Streeps and it's about a famous Australian case, why haven't we seen it?
I know, I know, it's so funny. I saw a meme the other day that had like just a dog on the chair and it said on the back of its Meryl Street fay o this. Are there any move Like, is there a movie that you haven't seen that? Everyone is really surprised. You haven't seen Hate Rivalry? That's no movie, baby girl? Yeah? Probably. I mean I haven't seen what good Fellows. I haven't seen good Fellows. Oh yeah, I know, I neither of us.
Yeah, this will surprise you because you know my beautiful friend Shannade who lives in Lonnie, who I was just hanging out with for the weekend. Now, if you think I love musical theater, Shannaide is like a singing, walking, talking, singing dancing version of me.
She hasn't seen Spirited. She hasn't seen high school musical.
Oh I discovered this today, thirteen years she has not seen high school musical. Like, hang on, Sammy, you haven't seen high school musical?
No, Okay, well guess that.
Makes way more sense than it does Shade, but it doesn't make sense as my best person, my best person, my best friend, and I was thinking your favorite person.
I just got to.
So you are my best person. We're watching high school musical together?
Okay? Like I think for like TV shows and stuff for more, like I haven't seen Breaking Bad. I haven't seen those sorts of shows. I'm like, yeah, but films, I don't know the film. It's like two hours. Breaking Bad is like a big commitment that into it. But a movie. I've never seen a star War. Oh, I love a star War. I've only seen one James Bond, have you? Yeah?
When the last one is the only one I've seen where spoiler alerts Boilerhead skip ahead if you don't if you haven't seen it, the one where he dies.
So I was very confused.
I was confused by everyone being like shook us at that because I was like, does that.
Not noting every filming, every film. Hey, we've got two voice smails, but it's part one and part two, and it comes from someone I've heard from before four and I really believe like them. Love their name Woody.
Hello friends, it is your favorite long winded listener and caller Woody.
Today.
With respect to the recent episode on the Cecil Hotel or the Cecil Hotel, both pronunciations.
Are correct depending now.
But also my call, funnily enough, is about pronunciation.
Because my actual name is Alisa, like Alisa Lamb in the episode Lisa Lamb. Mine is spelt eb l I s A. Who's is e l s A?
But I wanted to call and congratulate you, Georgia. Beautiful pronunciation, Georgia if you were giving her of Alisa. I did end up changing throughout the episode a few times and started calling her Alissa.
Yeah, it is.
Actually my Hawdrey peeve mispronunciate my neme because I think Alissa should have a doubles right. Yes, it really peeves me when people get it wrong. Yeah, fair enough, you were doing so beautifully, but I swear.
You have to go back get the receipts.
I'm sure you jump around a little bit.
Yeah I did. Anyway, still love your work. It was an awesome episode. But go back and have listen. Oh, Alisa Woodie, we love you.
I did.
I realized when I was listening back to what I said Alyssa. A couple of times.
I think I was like questioning myself between Cecil and Cecil, I questioned whether it was a Lisa. But right because the name so l I s A is Lisa, so with an in front of that is Alisa.
So thank you for crediting me. Sorry for also getting it wrong as well. While we have part two of this speak pipe as well, that comes from our good friend Woody, and I'm a Lisa Woody, the one in the same ready for this, Yes.
Hello, sorry it's Woody again. I just need to clarify. I am aware that mispronunciate is not a word I said in my previous speak pipe. Embarrassing anyway, I guess it serves me right for going in and correcting you love.
Oh my god, that's so funny because if she didn't clarify, I assumed it was Joe Dad.
See, you know what you've got to meet when you're wrong. And if I ever am I will we love a second part as well. Looks like when you take someone and you walk off in the same direction. Oh, just one more thing. This comes from Matt, Sammy, P and g Love. I thoroughly enjoyed when I'm casually playing a video game Final Fantasy and I can't help but read
the flavor text of a quest. As said in your podcast, I implore you your magistrates, and there is there is a great screenshot here where it says I employed, I employs We love. We don't know anything about gaming, but we now we know that that game says I employ you at the end. I know, but it's a Final Fantasy online. But XIV online? What's that? What do you mean Roman numerals? Fifteen fifteen online? Is that what it is? Fifteen fifteen XIV no x whatever. I'm online mathematicians. Basically,
Math's not my strong boy in English or Roman? Have we got this one from Rain? Hello? Sorry, I don't have Instagram, so I'm sending an old fashioned email about Alisa, Lisa, Lisa, about Elisa and how she managed to get into the water tank. It looks like there is access from the roof of the hotel itself. It would have taken a lot of efforts, so I don't think it answers every question, but it does look like she could have gotten up there somehow then easily jumped onto the tank or from
the hotel next the hotel next door. Also, I remember watching a YouTube video from someone who wanted to see if they could get up the water tanks themselves. Apparently the door to the rooftop was left wide open. I don't think security is great at the hotel. In my opinion, A Lisa's story is a very tragic accident, and I think it's awful that she was so far from home
and clearly suffering from a scary mental health episode. I definitely got sucked into this because when it first broke, but when it first broke, but now it makes me sad. Love the podcast, guys, Thank you for your hard work. And she's actually attached our photos of people in the in the the water tanks there as well. Try trying to do it. We've got two more. Let's end on two more. Got our Dean. Hey ya, guys, love your work. I wanted to write in with a theory about that
Lisa Lamb case. People are obsessed with the believe that Elisa witnessed something that she shouldn't have done soon after arriving at the hotel. The trauma of what she witness triggered something with their mental health and led to a strange behavior in the lead up to her disappearance. I think she was tracked down and killed because of what
she witnessed. A lot of people seem to think of the murder versus mental health situation as separate theories, but I think both are not only plausible, but the most logical explanation for a future EP. Would love for you to do one on the Uber County five. It's one of the weirdest cases out. Why you be a of the weirdest cases I've ever heard, and so much about it is battling love your work and love how you've taken a different approach to the true crime podcast. Love
Yours Dean from Melbourne, Love you Dean from Melbourne. Yeah absolutely, I'm going to end on Stephanie, Hi, Sammy and Georgia. Happy anniversary. You guys should be proud. What an impressive milestone as a lady of impeccable podcast tastes who considers herself to be a Day one listener NACP is the best. I love listening every week and I'm really proud of you both. At the top of the episode, Sammy always says, keep leaving five star reviews, and I would, but bloody
Apple only lets you have one. Go anyway, keep up the awesome work. We love and appreciate you. Steph. How nice is that? And then she writes, ps tell g to check her igdms. She's missing so many hilarious slash horrendous replies to hersors in my humble opinion, Sorry, is how great is that? That's so funny? Oh my god, that's amazing. Isn't that the best? We absolutely love hearing from you listeners, So please do right in Sammy at just Another company dot com dot au leave us a
goddamn voicemail. You can do that. All the links are below. You can watch us on YouTube. All these episode go up. Episodes go up on there. What should they do? Should they leave a five star rating?
Living Yes, they need to leave a five star rating, five star review and follow us on TikTok and Instagram and YouTube add not another crime podcast, and then they need to also tell us.
A poordtery bee. Oh god, you love would you love to tell me a poueldry peece for today.
So I have one that has been influenced by my weekend away at the festival, the festival, of course, and it's actually a double edged powdry peeve. So there are two peeves, but they are the opposite of each other.
So I do realize that there's no way of fixing it.
Yeah, because both options of what happened now peeve me okay, yeah, yep. The first part of it is encuse bands doing encuse because it's like, just play all your song, Like, obviously, if you haven't played your biggest song, we don't believe that you're actually leaving, right, don't waste our.
Time, don't you don't need to big up your own e all screen.
But the one side of that is because that is so common I have found out when Boy and Bear performed on Sunday.
I found a new peeve, and that is when there is no one.
Call okay, really flipped it. It's now such an expected thing on course, So.
When they thank you and then they walked off and then they didn't come back, I.
Was like, oh, okay, I guess that's it. Jeeve is the.
Former I don't like encorse they're unnecessary, but because they're so common now.
There is a new people, which is when they don't do that.
I think Boy and Man needs to be setting the trend and everyone needs to follow them.
Just play your best songs and get out, and you can get out well. I will say a similar thing in that shows that go way over. So during a season or something like a festival season or something, you're going to see a comedy show comedy festival, and that goes ten minutes over, So the next show goes ten minutes over, and you're trying to get to the next show. And I did it myself. So when I recorded my show at the I recorded it for the Comedy of You,
the YouTube channel. I went so over, you peeved yourself. Well, I didn't even know that I went over. The reason that I went over is because our good friend Joe Creasy messaged me and said I wanted to stay for the ending, but it just went like it went way over. I was like, no, I didn't. And because I so up on the it was just after daylight savings and they hadn't changed the clock up the top, so I thought I was way under and I was going, oh no, oh my god, and I finished the show going, oh shit,
do I remember everything? So I remember everything, Oh my god, I remember. And then I looked at my watch. I was like, oh no, and I gone like, yeah, I've gone to full like fifteen minutes over or something like more than that. But because of the show had an opening and all these other stuff and we started to film and everything, so that went way over. But oh my god, and so yeah, I did it myself. And
so when you peeve myself. But when you're like at a comedy festival or something and you've lined up to see two or three shows that night, you've only got it. You've only got ten minutes, and it's really hard when something goes over and you have to run as quickly as you came to the next one, and you missed
like the first five minutes of that one. I did that once when I was maybe fifteen years old, no, maybe fifteen or sixteen, must have been fifteen, and came up to the city and my brother and I went to go and see Judith Lucy, and that the deal was I got to pick one and he got to pick one. So we went to see Judith Lucy obviously was my choice and his was Archbarker. Just in case huch Barker is listening. I don't hate you, but I don't hate edge Barker. You wouldn't have chosen I wouldn't
have chosen urge Baker. And so we're walking out of we have to leave early because like it's like, oh my god, Judith Lucy started ten minutes later, bah blah blah. And we're walking out and I really don't want to walk out, and we have to walk out, and Jude Lucy leans down in mine and my brother's face because had to pass her to walk out, had to go by the stage to walk the door. And she leans
down and she goes, what are you doing? And we went I went, oh, my brother book tickets to go and see another show, and Judith goes, who is it? Then and then my brother said arch Barker, and she goes, arch Barker, He's not even fucking funny. And then and then as we were leaving, she just kept shouting, he's not even fucking funny. She goes, I'm a legend. I
was like, you are. I'm so sorry, my queen, I'm so sorry, my beautiful queen, the best comedian in the world in my opinion, yelling at us the arch Barker's not funny. I was like, I a great, I A great I had I couldn't be in the sit by myself anyway. Thank you everyone for quickly talking about comedians.
And a shout out to our good friend Joel Crazy you just brought up.
Yeah, shout out to Joel Creasy.
He is just announcing he's got his own national radio show, lunch Times, starting I think in April.
So congratulations to our friend Joel.
Congratulations to our friend Joe.
Congratulations to our friend Joel even though he is on a competing network to me.
And also the other thing is that we hope that you enjoy the documentary on Lucy let Be as well. Thank you for this awful, awful story this week, but we'll see you next week. Listeners. I'm going to make Sammy wat cheated rivalry this week. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. We're going to the Cottage Baby Talk Book Talk Star