Andrew Fraser is a name you might remember if you're a longtime listener of No Another Crime podcast, or if you just listened to the Peter Dubas episode. Now. In that episode, I mentioned that the man who eventually took down serial murderer Peter du Pass for his third life sentence was once a prominent lawyer. This is his story, don't du.
Scared.
It is a tale of a man who flew too close to the sun, a man who was once one of, if not the top, or certainly most notorious criminal defense lawyers in Melbourne. Oh wow, and how Andrew Fraser ended up behind bars himself to be the one to whom Peter du Pass would confess? Wow? How much do you know about this story?
I don't know anything about this story apart from what you already told me. You know in the Peter Dupats episode.
That's what you call a little teas.
Ah, you call it a little teas.
Andrew Roderick Fraser was born in nineteen fifty one to a comfortable middle class family in Melbourne, Australia.
Of it and roder wreck as well. That's such an interesting name.
Isn't it. It feels very kind of old English. Yeah. He went to Wesley College and went on to marry and have two children.
So Wesley College is quite a fancy school in Melbourne, isn't it very expensive?
Yeah? It's a private griba Yeah, yeah, with boys and girls. He was a good student, but not a great one. He was one of those kids who was naturally clever, but he didn't put in a whole heap of work. Sure, he loved an argument, so becoming a lawyer seemed to fit absolutely. He also really loved the idea of money, and in particular having lots of it.
Sure.
He was described by the scriptwriter on what would later become a TV series about his life as being a man with a strong streak of narcissism. He was drawn to the law because it was a fast track to social and financial success.
Wow. Okay, were his parents' lawyers or anything as well?
I didn't find anything on what his parents did, but they were, you know, well off enough that the kids went to private school.
They were the Wiggles, that's.
Right, their time before they gave birth in nineteen fifty one.
Beautiful.
Now, he obviously did get into law, because that's where this story is going. But he only passed by one percent, which did you know a pass is a pass? Just to how far he gets in law and how prominent he was, it's interesting that he just scraped through.
Is that like ninety like you know something that people were quite high to get into.
Law, to get into exactly now. His teachers and classmates probably didn't expect him to go on to become the big name in law that he inevitably would, all right. One thing he did have in spades was doggedness. He treated every client as the most important client he could or would ever have, and made sure he was available to them at any and every moment they might want.
That's a pretty good It's a good quality to have in someone.
It was very much. He was like, I mean, I'll do anything to make the most money that i can. So if I'm the most available, the more people will hire me. Now, this is how he became so popular and yes, very very wealthy. He would turn up to court to represent the pits of society. His words, not mine. He was truly representing some heinous people in a Mercedes Benz convertible at first, later to be replaced by a Porsche.
Oh wow.
He aligned himself to professional criminals and said, I'm in your camp. I make house calls twenty four hours a day, and I will get a magistrate out of bed at two am for you. If I have to right a magistrate. I am. But in doing this he very much alienated himself from the other side, the police, all right, and they ended up loathing him because he wasn't only successful in court, he also seems to carry it on outside the court. His attitude was that this was a game
and he was able to win it. He wasn't just about justice, he was about winning. This will become quite evident. He would live by the line you never ask your clients if they're guilty or not sure, so.
You don't know, you're not liable in any way.
Yeah, but I ask, And I heard him say this many times in different interviews when I was researching. His job, as can be argued, of course, is the job of every defense lawyer, was presuming innocence and make sure only the cases with strong enough evidence proven beyond reasonable doubt would go down. But this often perhaps went a little
too far. He had a lot of clients, obviously, But I'm going to talk today about the three or at least three of the most prominent ones for which he became infamous and inevitably led to his downfall.
Oh wow, okay.
The first is a name, a man by the name of Denni Allan, aka mister Death. Have you heard of him?
No?
He was a violent and depraved drug dealer who dipped into his own supply, becoming heavily addicted himself. This only made him even more erratic than he was already. He was the eldest son of criminal matriarch Caath Petting Girl, which I feel like anyone from Melbourne will recognize it is one of the most infamous and notorious names in Melbourne crime. Her family family, Her family is inarguably evil and very dangerous. And I'll go into some of this
family a bit later on. Cath Petting Girl brought her son, her first son, Dennis Allen, to see Andrew Fraser when he was in his twenties and they had a lot of cash to spend, so spend it on Fraser they did. Alan was a major drug dealer in inner city Melbourne, mostly working around Richmond South Era during the nineteen eighties.
You've got to have your beat. I feel like when you're working in the underground as well, you've got to have your beat. Like a lot of people know about, like you know the kind of the Carlton, you know, crimes around that time, and the carlt and crew.
They will come up as well. It's a very meltpig story. No I like it. It's foreshadow foreshadowing. So one of the things, I mean, there's lots of stuff about this horrible man. One of the things that kind of comes up again and again is that he lived his house in Richmond backed onto the train line and back in those days, trains had windows that you could put up and down right, So he would have his drug runners throw the drugs out of the train window into his backyard.
So this is doctor Deck, not Dea do to death, not Andrew Fraser.
We're all on Dennis are yeah, yeah, And he would do that, so you know it was never seen going in and out of his friend.
They pay their fare, I should say, pay their fare got fish.
The money he made from drugs, he set up brothels and massage parlors in inverted commas and he paid off police. There was a lot of corruption around in these days.
Also. Can I just say that massage parlors. A friend of mine went to a massage parlor the other day and the end got offered an extra service and went to.
Like what he thought was just like a spa day spa or knew it was a.
It was no, No, it was a massage place to get like you had like bad knees and got like a massage done and got offered an extra service at the end was like, that's so interesting because it is hard. I reckon, I don't. I've never really had a massage before.
That's why he was offered.
Yeah, but also like yeah, I get that, and I like that. Can ye, I love that? Okay, I think what you did it was amazing then, because I think it is a thing that probably people know, like the unspoken thing of going oh I can go here. They call a happy ending. But how would you know, like if like.
No, there's like an unwritten rules. Ones that have the flashing neon open signs, oh really that have like that you can't see through the windows covered with like the signage.
Sure okay, and shoes hanging out the.
Drug dealers like Dennis Allen. All Right, So I've got a quote here from Andrew Fraser talking about Dennis Allen. He would buy heroine and crush it and flatten it, then cover it in glad rap and hang it on the clothesline in the backyard with a doner over it like a quilt cover. He would then crank the line up high so it was well above any dogs that the police might bring in. So he was drying out his drugs in plain sight cover. His other treat this
is still Phraser talking about him. His other trick to buy a heap of potted azaleas, pull them, pull them out of the pot, stick the gear in the bottom of the pot, then put the plant back in and bury the pot in the garden so it just looked as if it was growing in the ground. Sure, with guns, he would dig a hole up against the boundary fence and then go side like dig under sideways into his
neighbour's yard to bury the gun that way. If police ever dug it up, exactly unders if the police, thank you, dig you Salia that could be the name of If police dug it up, he would prove that it wasn't on his property.
Oh okay, that's pretty clever.
We're not giving advice here, we're just talking about the crimes of someone that's not advice. Now, one major crime he was convicted of, and there are so many, but one of the major ones was a rape in the nineteen seventies, for which he served a ten year prison sentence. This hardened him significantly. After his release from this sentence, he was suspected of being involved in up to thirteen some reports says many as fifteen murders.
Oh wow, okay.
One of his most heinous crimes was the murder of former Hell's Angels Biky Anton Kenny. Dennis Allen had cut off his legs with a chainsaw to fit him into a forty four gallon drum that was dumped in the Arrow River.
Oh my god.
He's also believed to have killed his friend Wayne Stanhope. Now, whether Alan planned to kill stan Hope or did it on a whim is uncertain, But what happened was when he was invited. So Stanhope was invited over to Dennis Allen's home like straight on his release from jail.
Yep, that's nice.
He went. They were all doing drugs together and he went to change a record on Allan's stereo system and Alan shot him in the head. Oh he emptied two guns before cutting his friend's throat.
Oh wow.
His body was never found, so no charges were laid.
Wow. Everyone just knew who was guilty, but he was never Yeah. Wow.
This is what has been said about what happened. Sure, in all of Allan's alleged crimes, Andrew Fraser essentially helped him avoid jail time by leveraging his knowledge of corrupt Victorian police at the time, and there was a lot of corruption, so essentially Andrew Fraser knew about the corruption and would use that to kind of not get him wow charged. He would get a lot of Allan's hearings adjourned time and time again, but one was particularly prominent.
Dennis had asked Andrew Fraser to get in a German in a hearing at the coroner's court. So it was hearing into a woman who had died of a heroin overdose, but whose body had been found in a river with signs that had been put there after death. Dennis Allen came forward as the main suspect, but there wasn't enough evidence to arrest and charge him, so instead they did a coroner's inquired into her death and essentially into whether
they could find enough evidence to charge Allan. Now, Fraser had kind of said, I can't get you out of this one, mate, it's the coroner's court. It looks really bad here. I can't adjourn this anymore. You weren't going to have to go in today. Andrew Fraser went and picked him up. They drove into the coroner's court together, and as they pulled up, they saw dozens of fire trucks because the coroner's court had been firebombed, so it
was closed for the day. My god, Alan said, quote told you I'd get it adjourned.
Oh my god, this time this is such an extreme wi.
Yeah yeah, Now Andrew Fraser. Fraser was quoted as saying, Dennis was always polite to me, listened and took my advice, but his only redeeming feature to me was that he had a lot of money.
Sure, clearly, this.
Is still Frases quote. Clearly he was a dreadful person.
Sure, okay. So he knew he was representing, you know, as he called us, what did he call them, not pests, but it was like pits, pits, the pits, Yeah, exactly. So he knew the people he was representing, but he was a really good criminally attorney. Yeah, my god, yess yeah yeah, yeah, wow, yeah, that's so interesting.
I mean I never in all of my research, I didn't ever hear him talk about any specific cases of people he got off because he thought they were innocent. And he spoke a lot about the fact that he says, you never ask your client whether they did it.
Yeah, okay.
Now, thankfully for Andrew Fraser and undoubtedly many many people who surely would have gone on to become more victims of Dennis Allen, or at the very least have horrible dire interactions with him. Dennis Allen died in nineteen eighty seven at the age of thirty five. His heart gave out, almost certainly not helped by years of very heavy drug abuse, which, per my reading, caused pieces of his heart to literally break away.
Oh wow, he's heartbroke.
He's heart broke, heart failure because he was a piece of shit. Wow, only thirty five thirty five. Now I can't just say I'm not saying his pieceship because he did drugs hit.
This man was a piece of yes, yeah, yea, yeah, yeah. He sawed someone's legs off. I think you're alloud to say that.
Yeah, Andrew Fraser has said openly that he was very happy to see the back of mister Death, but it wouldn't be the end of his relationship with Dennis Allen's family. More on that later.
A lot of money coming out of that family.
The second of Andrew Fraser's notorious, well known clients I'm going to talk about today is Lewis.
Moran, Okay, of the Moran family.
One of the heads of the Carlton Crew, which you brought up earlier. Yeah, yeah, so very brief I'm just mentioned, not even background. Melbourne had very very prominent underworld gangland wars in the eighties, nineties, early two thousands. It was essentially kind of two gangs ended up turning against each other. One person started working with one to make ecstasy pills, then went off on their own was shot in the stomach.
This kicked off the whole thing. One of the gangs was called the Carlton Crew, and Lewis Moran was the patriarch, or one of the patriarchs of this crew. His fat This is just to kind of paint a bit of a picture as to his life in crime and how he got started. His father was a bookie in a local pub who always cooked the books. And his mother was a quote unquote nurse for a prominent illegal abortionist. Oh wow, it wasn't a great family. Moran was an
all rounder as a crime figure. He was a skilled pickpocket, something he never quite gave up, even when he was making plenty of cash in other ways. He and his brother Tuppence were tough street fighters and were said to use guns only when ness.
And I think it's someone called Tuppets, I think tough.
Well, yes, it was his nickname, but I don't remember why the family was heavily involved in illegal book making, race fixing, and opportunistic receiving of stolen goods. Now it was Lewis's son Jason and stepson Mark who moved the family into the lucrative business of drugs, the business that eventually cost both of them, or all of them, their lives. Lewis Moran, cunning and cautious, was always looking for an edge. He was looking for better legal advice and had heard
about this guy called Andrew Fraser. He met Fraser through the respected barrister Phil Dunn at a lunch at the Flower Drum restaurant.
Oh sure, quite a well known restaurant in it actually.
Won in a war. I think it won Restaurant of the Year, or that might be wrong, but I think it's right this year in twenty two.
Oh really Yeah, I've been around for a long time, long time, and institution.
Really prominent in that era of you know, high flyers, whether they're underworld or above. So Moran asked Andrew Fraser for his card. Fraser gave him a handful and with that gesture it's wasteful, it is, but he was like, this is my inn. This is doubt as many as you are.
Yeah.
Sure, with this gesture, his standing as the underworld's go to lawyer was consolidated.
Wow.
A quote from Andrew Fraser. I never charged Lewis assent because anything. He sent me so many blokes. Sorry, because he sent me so many blokes who did pay.
Yeah.
Sure.
He would sometimes ask for a favor for a good bloke who'd got in trouble, but he would tell me which ones had plenty and to charge them accordingly. So he knew, Yeah, he knew I was around with such a big player in the underworld that he was like, I'm not going to charge you ever, mate, you're all good. Just give me some more work and Lewis will kind of work with him to go charge this one.
Yeah right.
Fraser trusted Moran a lot more than he certainly trusted but even liked, Dennis Allen. But business is business. Moran paid him by referring, referring a stream of clients. Allan had paid with an endless stream of cash.
Did you know if Andrew Fraser worked with a law firm or he was always out on his own?
I don't know.
Yeah, yeah, because you think this sort of work, you'd have to work by yourself, you couldn't.
Yes, yeah, I'm thinking that, but I actually don't know. So over these years representing many dodgy and discussing criminals, the underworld's favorite lawyer got into a bit of a habit himself. He broke one of the iron rules of old time criminals. Don't get high on your own supply.
Oh sure, okay.
Fraser started using cocaine after a biky gang leader tossed him a bag of the drug as a gift when Fraser was going away for a weekend to the Adelais Grand Prix in the late nineteen eighties.
Is thrown through the window of a passing trap you.
May have been.
Now.
The reason I bring it up here is that Lewis Moran said, from very early days, that will get you into nothing but trouble, mate, stay out of it.
Nice for him to warn him.
Exactly if Louis Mirando's an, I was staying out of trouble. Now. This cocaine use, over time became less of a habit and more of a full blown addiction, a five thousand dollars a week addiction.
Or less five thousand dollars a week.
In a podcast with him that I listened to, he said, a cocaine addiction is God's way of telling you you've got too much money. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's his addiction was a very poorly kept secret. But we'll get back to that. The third client I'm going to talk about today is Victor Pierce. While working with Slash representing Dennis Allen Andrew Fraser became inextricably linked to the wider family. As I said before, Dennis Allen's mother was Cath petting Gil.
Two of her other sons were notorious gangsters, Trevor Pettingill and Victor Pierce. So there were two of Dennis Allen's half brothers. After Dennis Allen died, Andrew Fraser wanted out of the petting Gill family, but that was a lot easier said than done. They saw him as being on the books, even owing them. One of his brothers, Victor Victor Pierce, had been represented by Fraser years before and hadn't avoided conviction and was locked up for four years.
He blamed Fraser, of course he was his lawyer and he hated him.
Wow.
But the rest of the family loved and trusted Andrew Fraser, so Victor Piers was willing to give the lawyer another go. Fraser, essentially feeling threatened and backed into a corner to continue working with the family. Victor Pierce was not someone you wanted to cross, right. His family was the only reason that essentially he didn't go and shoot him up. Now that Dennis Allen was dead, he was like, well, what
have you done for the rest of us? The family was going no, no, no, caf petting Gal was going, no, mate, we trust him, let him represent you.
Wow. And also if you're owing them some sort of favor or they feel like you're on their books as well, that's going to be such a big thing.
Absolutely, yeah. Now, Victor Piers was loathed and feared in equal measure. He was hot headed, he loved guns and was a very heavy drug user as well as a trafficker, but at this stage he was fairly low on the rung of Melbourne crime figures until now. I'm not going to go into this in super detail because I'm definitely going to do this story as its own episode, but
the background is required to tinue Andrew Fraser's story. Victor Pierce, his brother Trevor Petting Gill, and Victor's best mate Graham Jensen were widely suspected of being part of a gang that was dubbed the Flemington Crew, a gang of violent armed robbers who carried out terrifying bank heists in full masks, often shooting up the place but leaving little to no evidence.
Police were sure they knew who the men were, and they were surveilling all of those that they suspected to be part of the gang when something happened that is widely believed to have sparked one of the most notorious crimes in Victorian and in fact Australian history. Oh On October eleven, nineteen eighty eight, police were going to arrest
Graham Jensen, so Victor Pierce's best mate. They were going to arrest him in connection with an armed robbery and a murder, a couple of murders going on in this but the ambush to arrest him was bungled by police. A chase ensued, during which Polissa they saw gents and brandish a gun and they shot him in retaliation. Victor Pierce's best friend had been shot dead by police. Thirteen
hours later. At four thirty nine am on the twelfth of October, an abandoned Holden commodore parked on Walsh Street in South Yarra was reported to Victoria Police. Two young officers, twenty two year old Stephen Tynan and twenty year old Damienaire, took the call and they went to see what this car was doing, dumped in the middle of a quiet
street with its lights on and its doors open. When these two young constables got out of their car to go and investigate this car on Walsh Street, they were shot dead in cold blood.
Oh wow, this was huge. Yohs.
Two completely innocent young constables out doing their jobs trying to protect the community killed for no reason, the victims of a war against police of which they didn't know they were a heart. I'm going to tell that full story.
Yeah, that's fascinating.
The suspects for the Wolsh Street killings were immediately identified by police as suspects as Victor Pierce, Trevor Petting Girl, Anthony Lee Farrell and Peter McAvoy. Now, getting evidence and landing charges would take police two and a half years, but they got there. All four of these men were charged with murder. Again, it was a huge story. Still today, you can say Wolsh Street to anyone in Australia and they know about that story.
Except for me. I didn't know about that story.
But I feel like you're not know even the details. But you know two cops were shot down. Yes, yeah, guess who they got to represent them, Ah, Julian Burnside. It was Andrew. Yes, this story is about Andrew. Fraser says it was a messy investigation by police from the start and the charges were rushed. He said that police.
Yeah, wow, Okay, we'll go into that another time.
Fraser said that police straightway identified who they believed were responsible and then went about building a case against them. Which is the wrong way to do it. Yes, and he used that. Fraser used that in his defense. Again, I'll save all the details for another episode. But unbelievably, still to this day, all four men were acquitted of the street killings. They walked free, and Andrew Fraser was to thank police were in rape.
Absolutely.
In Fraser's own words, this is when he believed police, the police force first turned their sights onto taking him down. And as it turns out, it wouldn't be that hard. The next chapter of my script here is called Fraser's Undoing God.
This is a chapter that I'm interested. I'm going to be interested the whole time, but I'm very interested in this chapter.
So woll Street was in nineteen eighty eight. I left it to telling until last because kind of for the background on the families, but also that was the thing that really that's what a lot of people remember Fraser. Was he the one that represented the Wall Street guys got right, and then so from being known as a lawyer doing that to then going on and representing people like Dennis Allen and Lewis Moran. Police fucking hated you hated him.
Do you know how long he kind of practiced law before he was to get a name like that. You imagine he was working.
For a long time while Yes, he was fifty at the age of his undoing.
Yes, okay, right, all right, so he'd had a pretty big coreer.
I mean to be hired by the acquitted Wall Street killers.
And Paul Hogan. No, I don't think in his criminal case.
It may have, but I like to bring it to that.
There's no reason I brought Paul Hogan just like to bring up.
Poor you always do. Yeah, So, like he was prominent enough by then representing them, right. So, as I said earlier, Lewis Moran had warned Fraser that doing drugs would be his undoing, something the kg old crook feared for his own sons, or his own son Jason Moran and his stepson Mark, which it was. They both fell victim to the Underworld War of the nineties and early two thousands. Fraser said, I looked in the mirror one morning and
admitted it to myself. You've got a habit, I told myself, and I decided to give it up then and there. I kept that promise right up until lunchtime. Oh my god, that's like a serious yeah, addiction.
Absolutely, and you should only ever look in the mirror and say, God, you looked good. Yeah.
I do think in this case it was maybe you know, I think it was fine for him to clock himself out, okay, sure? Or were you saying that just to me.
Specific to you specifically in everyone listening, I think you should only ever look in the mirror and say, got you look good and wink if you want, If you want, you can add in if you want.
Our listeners are good and god they look good.
God they look good as well.
So apart from the damage to his reputation, his law practice, and his family life phrases one thousand dollars a day cocaine habit made him.
Vulnerable thousand dollars a day.
Oh my god, that must be business days only because I said five.
Yeah, on the weekend.
It also made him very vulnerable because it gave corrupt police something to threaten him with.
Yeah. Sure.
And as we know, and you can imagine from his role in many criminal cases that didn't go police this way at all, Paul Hogan, but particularly exacerbated by his defrench of the Wall Street four. To put it bluntly, they fucking hated the guy and everyone.
I'm sorry that she just went with that and swore like that, I'm not You're not. I'll say it again, No don't.
I said I would not that I will.
Just be careful what you do right now because there might be kids listening in the car.
Oh my god, I hope there's not.
Well, how do we know now?
And you're about about legs being chopped off and.
Oh okay, yeah, mom and dad, if you got, yeah, have good, take a good hard look at yourself in the mirror and then say got you got?
You look good. And Andrew Fraser hated police right back. Yeah, he was, and remained even all after all that's to come very vocal on police corruption, particularly in the drug squad, Drug Squad of the eighties and nineties. Andrew Fraser's saucers.
Now he is a git A brand. But Paul Newman exactly.
H he remained always he never ever ever threw anyone under the bus term even after his own downfall, he never chucked anyone else in it, which is why I've written. Fraser's sources suggested he never said who told him any of this information?
When you said that before, did I say, did you have a brand.
Yeah you did say that you did it as if it was like s a U.
Yes, But.
They suggested that rogue detectives were getting the precursor chemicals that were being made into ecstasy. They were getting them wholesale from a legitimate source. So so you are under the cover of an ongoing police sting operation. So police would get legitimate precursor drugs saying they were doing a sting on operation. They would then take these products to known amphetamine cooks and offer them the chemicals on the basis that half of the finished speed as finished ecstasy would
be handed over to them as payment. Right, okay, Right, And this thing worked well apart from the fact as it turned out that the dodgy police sold much, if not most, of the drugs to street dealers.
Sure okay.
Andrew had a string of clients and contacts who told him police had robbed them, flogged them, and then arrested them as well. Yeah, well they were doing this dodgy business and then still arresting them at the end of the day.
Yeah right.
Fraser didn't believe he could speak safely to anyone in the Victoria Police Force, so decided to contact the National Crime authority as it then was, which is like the federal agency looking into police correstion.
Ah, okay, right right.
This is a quote from Fraser. A policeman I knew assured me that I could trust a particular guy in the National Crime Authority. He was wrong. The person I contacted called Strawn the same day and told him, Fraser is onto you. Now. Strawhorn was the head of the armed Drugs Squad, arguably the most crooked of all of them. So he was told Frases onto you. And so Fraser says, in his own words, his decision to blow the whistle
on corrupt state police blew up in his face. From that moment on, he was in big as Fraser sees it, Strawhorn's sinister influence over the drug squad immediately swung all of its resources against Andrew Fraser to neutralize the threat that he posed. Crooks are not dabbing on him. But if there's this criminal lawyer that hates us, onto us, We're going to do something to take it. This is all Andrew Fraser's allegations. I mean, Strawhorn has been done
for corruption, but that's not the story, he says. So Andrew says as part of this like sting operations that were going back and forth, he's as rogue police broke into Jason Moran to Lewis's Moran's son's house to retrieve five thousand ecstasy pills that they had earlier planted on him five thousand. Now that the rogue police wanted to concentrate on nailing Moran's lawyer rather than Moran himself, they wanted the pills back as potential ammunition in what I'm
calling the war against Andrew. So they'd put allegedly five thousand ecstasy pills in the Moran's place to do one of these dodgy sting operations. They went back there and retrieved the pills, not in a sting operation, so they could try to use.
Them against Hope.
But in the end, Strawhorn's crew didn't need the ecstasy pills to be planted in Andrew Fraser's possession as throwaways. Fraser did their work for them. Oh my god, they'd been bugging him, and in doing so, he was recorded in several compromising conversationations, notably giving advice to a cocaine smuggler on how he could import five and a half kilos of the drug.
Wow giving advice? That's nuts.
This was blood on his hands. Andrew Fraser was organizing, or at least helping plan and organize the importation of a commercial quantity of drugs. He was arrested in his home with full lights and sirens and our version of the SWAT team like breaking.
Into here of teams in Australia. Do you.
So the Special Operations Group is SOGS. Is great because so it's for Special Operations Group. But the acronym is also like kind of colloquially called the sons of God God. Anyway, Andrew Fraser was not laughing about the acronym that night. No, not that night he was charged. While as a lawyer, you would think that he would have fought the charger's tooth and nail, but no, Fraser could not and therefore
did not argue his innocence. He pleaded guilty to traffic in cocaine and to helping a client import two point seven million dollars worth of the drug from West Africa.
Oh my god, this was the early nineties. Was his late eighties.
Nineteen ninety nine that he was charged. Oh yeah, sorry, I didn't say that anywhere it was nineteen ninety nine. Yeah.
Wow, okay, that's so much money.
Yeah, so much drugs.
Yeah.
His hearing went to court in two thousand and one. Now obviously he was strunk off the law register. It was never yeah, unfortunately. Yeah.
It's all it takes, is it.
It's all it takes pleading guilty to importing five and a half killers of cocaine. He could no longer and would never be able to again work as a lawyer. But he had cooperated and he had pleaded guilty right at the start. This was always, and is always sorry a strong mitigating factor in judge's findings and sentences. If someone pleads guilty, they save the state a lot of money from going through a trial. Is had a lot of things, and also shows accountability and potentially remorse.
Yeah.
Sure.
His lawyer had submitted to the court that his addiction should lessen his culpability and therefore lessen the severity of his sentence. His lawyer stated once he said this in court, once cocaine took hold of him, the mix of that poison and his own personality disorder was quite deadly, he said. Despite the charges, mister Fraser was an extremely decent human being who was involved in a wide range of community activities, and who keenly felt the impact and shame he had
brought on his family. That Fraser's wife had endured comments in innuendo, while his parents once saw so proud now averted their eyes from neighbors, and his children were suffering gibes at the school. Now, whether or not any of this played into the judges sentencing, we don't really know. But I want to add if police hated Fraser the way they did, so too did a lot of the
justice system. He was seen as the man who got the Wall Street killers off, and a lot of people so a lot of the industry thought he made a mockery of their justice system. But of course judges don't employ bias or personal gripes in sentencing by the letter of the law. In November two thousand and one, fifty
year old Andrew Fraser was sentenced to seven years it. Wow, it's funny that you say that's it, because then a lot of people also say seven years is a lot for a straight up guilty play, a one off trapped.
Like yeah, ro that's so much Like the quantity was huge.
Well, there I meet it somewhere in the middle of that is where the judge would have come to. Wow, And it wasn't going to be easy. Well, whether you think seven years is a lot or a little, it was his minimum term was five years, so five years without a doubt behind bars, and a portion of that time was to be served in maximum.
Security maximum security.
So yeah, whether he's seven years is a lot or yeah, that to me seems wild.
Yeah, to be maximum security for something that would be.
Murderers and rapists and like huge, big crime gang lords.
Yeah, Peter to Paz.
Correct, we're getting there.
Okay, Sorry, sorry, sorry.
So yeah, I just think that's wild. The unit that he was housed in in Port Philip Prison was he was housed with thirty eight of the most dangerous criminals in Victory.
Wow.
So there were only thirty nine people in that whole unit and he was one of them.
Yeah, because of the police. They didn't like him. Was that kind of what they were? Yeah?
Perhaps, who know, Perhaps he didn't have an avenue for appeal either. He had pleaded guilty, so he didn't have an avenue to appeal his conviction. He could have he could have appealed his sentence but it was there is always a risk that they can turn around and give you more if you do.
Yeah, okay.
So he was kind of sitting waiting, wishing for something to happen, and waiting on the sidelines and kind of keeping up with what was happening in the outside world. And on March seventeen, two thousand and three, which is Saint Patrick's day.
Oh good, okay, good, yeap correction, the deputy chief of.
The Victorian Police Drug Squad, Wayne Strawhorn remember that name, Yes, yep, he was arrested for trafficking a commercial quantity of pure pseudoephrodrin to none less than Gangland figure Mark Bran. Oh wow, Moran's son. So the head of the drug squad who had had it in for Andrew Fraser, was then arrested himself on these charges.
And pseudo effortron is quite an odd thing to be.
As I was saying earlier about the precursor to like ecstasy and speed, that's the precursor that we're getting. So like when you go, this might not be thing for international listeners, but in Australia certainly if you want the cold, like the good cold and flu tablets from the pharmacy that have pseudoephritin in them.
You have to say behind the counter police that's.
Right, and that's why you have to give your ID. So they are logging who's buying pseudoepritn So people can't be buying heaps because that is part of one of the illicit drugs.
Sure.
And also by this time Mark Moran, who he had supplied the drugs to, had been murdered himself, so he, his brother Jason, and his father Lewis would eventually be killed in Melbourne's a gangland war. And as I said, Strawn had been the one behind Fraser's arrest. So Fraser thought bingo. He launched an appeal based on the fact that the cops that took him down will crook it, and he was granted a hearing. So when you launch an appeal, you put in the paperwork saying this is
why I want to appeal. The appeals court can either say yes or no to that. If they say yes to that, they allow the hearing where all the evidence is presented. This is why I think my conviction should be quashed, my sentence should be changed, any of the above. So he was granted a hearing, and he and his lawyers were absolutely convinced he would win, Like this is this is absolutely you know, knock out of the park.
The squad who took him down for trafficking are themselves all in custody for trafficking.
Wow.
So the judge heard all the appeal evidence and denied an appeal. Really, Fraser would be spending at the very very least five years in prison.
From when he was first in that yep, yep.
So there was no chance he was going to get out earlier than the five years at the very earliest. Uh, there wasn't much more for him to do but kill time. He couldn't practice law obviously, he didn't know what the future held for him, and he had no more avenues of appeal to study up on. That had kind of kept him quite busy looking you know, doing his own kind of law legal stuff himself. So he just kind of lived with what he'd done and tried to take the time to change and get fit.
Killing time.
Yes that's not the name after Showy's, but I'm not going.
To back now.
So he wanted to What he wanted to do most is just avoid the unsavory types that he was housed with in this usual.
My least favorite shape unsavory. All their savory you mean shapes.
He thought savory was a shape say like we're.
In a try yeah, yeah, yes, unsavory ship.
That was an unsavory joke.
Um.
One of the most infamous unsavory types that he was housed with was a man named Peter Norris du Pass. He was in prison at the time for the gruesome, violent, heinous murders of two women, Margaret Maher and Nicole Patterson. And at this point, dear listeners, if you have not listened to our full episode on Peter du Pass, I would recommend to going back and doing so. You can get to the end of this if you want. But
there are some spoilers for that episode. There are also was for this episode in that so spoil if you hear. Maybe just sit and go back. Peter du Pass was very publicly believed to be guilty of at least one more murder than these two, and that murdering particular, was that of twenty five year old Messina hal Vargas, who had been brutally murdered while tending to her grandmother's grave at fulkn Assent cemetry in Melbourne in nineteen ninety seven,
but there simply wasn't enough evidence. Still, du Pass was in maximum security for life, never to be released. He was on two life sentences with no minimum time. But in two thousand and six an inquest was ordered into her death, which really was the police's way of being able to prove that it was due passed. They had no other suspects, All signs pointed to him. Taking it to a coronial inquest essentially was so they could work out whether they could gather enough evidence to charge him.
In gathering their evidence, Andrew Fraser had been in so this is two thousand and six and Fraser had been in jail for very nearly five years at this point. In gathering their evidence, police wondered if the serial killer du Pass could have made friends on the inside and maybe may have opened up to them. He was there in life, there may not have been much else to talk about. Sure, you also don't have people like that brag to others.
Yeah, I'm the kind of bigger criminal serial killer as well. You think maybe they are bragging.
So police booked up picked up the phone to Fulham Prison, which at this time was a lesser security facility where Andrew Fraser had finally been moved to. He did over three years in maximum security and then was moved to Fulham. Police asked to speak to the lawyer that they had put in prison.
Wow.
When police told him they wanted to ask about Peter Dupasz, Fraser said, I wondered when you'd.
Call Wow, it's wild that he didn't go straight away and I'll get into that.
Yeah, okay, so he fucking hated police.
Yeah that's true.
Yeah, I'll go into it.
Why.
Yeah, Yeah, do you think as a lawyer you would probably know that maybe you'd get some sort of leniency if you.
Yeah, but also think about where he is and what people in prison due to so called dogs.
Yeah that's true. Yeah, goddamn dogs and pigs and rats, animals.
Pigs are what they call the police.
Yes, that's what they call the police.
And they would do that to the too, I guess, so, Fraser said, Well, house together at Port Phillip Prison. In a very unexpected turn for no one more so than Andrew Fraser himself, Juwpass really warmed to him and he didn't talk to anyone. Jupas had become an accomplished gardener and tended to the jail vegetable patch. Fraser, who'd been an athlete at school, was determined to regain his former fitness after you know, really spiraling and becoming a cocaine addict.
He was like, right, while I'm here, I'll get fit, I'll get healthy again. So he would run and train outdoors daily. Jupas started to walk with him and would start to ask questions about the law. He was really intrigued by the law, which I suppose you would be if that was what your whole life kind of came down to.
Yeah, put you behind us, he got nothing else do you may have asked some questions.
Yeah, Also the Lord didn't put him behind us. His murderous rag.
Yeah, Lord doesn't kill people. People kill people.
That's exactly what I ought. Yeah, that hay fever today. So if I'm sniffing, I really do apologize.
So you're talking too much about cocaine.
Phantom cocaine. And over time he started to kind of treat Fraser as like his own private counsel. I would start to open up to him a little bit, ask him lots of questions that sounded like they were pointed yeah, sure, and eventually he began to talk about Messina hal Vargas. Fraser told police that he had once found a homemade knife like a shive, concealed among weeds at the prison, and Dupas walked over and picked it up and inspected it,
which is when the confession, according to Fraser, occurred. So this is this is now a quote from Andrew Fraser. We regularly used to find stuff hidden in the garden, drugs, weapons and other stuff. I once found a homemade knife and jew Pass came over. I called you passover to show it to him. He took it off me and started handling it, was caressing it in a sexual way. Dupass then started saying Mersina, Mersina, Mersina, with a strange look on his face. I was certainly left in no
doubt that Dupass murdered Mersina. Quote continues. This wasn't some sort of jailhouse confession where someone has gone in and sat Inness Ell one night and had a brew with another prisoner and somebody has allegedly said something. It's a lot stronger than that. Dupas and I spoke regularly, just the two of us. This was over months and months, and he was talking to me and confiding in me. There was one occasion when another prisoner came up to us and when we when we were gardening and started
abusing Dupass. The prisoner was yelling at Dupass saying you killed Mersina. I know you killed Mersina. After the other prisoner had gone, Dupass turned to me and said, how does that c U and T no, I did it.
In end of phrases quote I remember that from the picture Pass episode that that was. Yeah, that was the way that he got him.
Yeah, yes, it's overtimes as scouts of things. He never said I did it. Kind of this is what I did, I know, But yeah, it started with him caressing this knife, saying messina, messina message free to do yes, and and a phrase I think I got says he was terrified of Peter d Pass. There nothing kind of endearing about him at all. He was like a horrible, terrifying man.
Yeah, okay.
I think the fact that he kind of confided in him and treated him like his lawyer, Fraser felt a bit safer because he kind of confided in and trusted him. He would talk to him, but he would not go out of his way to do so, but he would talk back to him because he thought that's not someone I want to know on their bad side.
No, and also, you know both in maximum security. I guess a lot of the time you kind of go, oh, they're not going to write on me because we're both in maximum security. I guess they were just both killing time.
Very clever. It's almost like you came up with it. So Fraser, total of this two police, he had said nothing before. They weren't exactly mates. Andrew Fraser and the police. He didn't trust them, and they certainly didn't trust him until they called. They said, would you be willing to get up on the stand and testify against Peter Dupatz, And he said, under no circumstances while I am in jail, no, I will be killed without a doubt. There is no way I know how the law works. I'm coming close
to the end of my minimum parole sentence. At least you get me out of here and I'll testify.
He's also terrified of him as well, like imagine going back to prison and just being of.
Him, but then of also everyone else. They find out there's a rat in there, like he wouldn't survive as we've seen this one example of there's been he's found a hidden knife point.
In that petting zoo.
So he said absolutely no way I'm putting back to that prison. You've got absolutely nothing from me unless you get me out of here. So in September two thousand and six, Andrew Fraser, five years old, were very quietly freed from Fulham Prison two months before he's listed earliest. Now, when it gets to the end of your minimum sentence and when it got to the five years for him, you have to apply to the parole board and then they may grant you.
Yeah.
Sure, So it's not a kick that he would have got out then anyway. But it is also pretty wild that he was sitting on this information as someone who knows the law, understands the law and wanted desperately to be out of there. He still didn't come forward with it because that you just don't do that. You just don't do that. He was terrified for his life. He had agreed to give sworn evidence against Dupass. He was
taken out quietly for his own safety. If they saw him getting out any word God that he was getting released, there was no way he would You just you do not dog on former crooks, no matter how violent to prave they are, you just don't do that.
And he worked with crooks a lot, so you will not.
I think that's all part of it as well. You know, he wasn't just some suit wearing lawyer who was kind of going, oh, I don't want to be in here, maybe I'll use my legal smart He knew some of the worst of the worst of crime in Victoria. Absolutely, he knew what they did to each other. Within hours of Fraser's release, detectives traveled to Port Philip Prison and
charged Peter du Pass with his third murder. They discovered that Dupass tried to recruit Fraser as his unpaid legal advisor when they were in the unit together at Port Phillm Prison, So he'd actually kind of said to him, I want you to work as my solicitor. Wow, I want you to give me advice as a lawyer would. Now, if Fraser had been Dupass's lawyer, he would not have been legally allowed to give any evidence because any information
would have remained privileged and confidential. But given he was convicted criminal, he had been disbarred.
From the legal Oh yeah, right, I meant that.
None of the conversations between the pair could be considered privileged. Fraser was nothing more than a fellow in listening to do pass yapping.
Oh that's great, okay. Yeah.
In du Pass's murder trial, Andrew Fraser was the key star prosecution witness, which the irony. Yeah, like I feel like the members of Victoria Police who were kind of using him for that. I wonder what the guilt levels or like maybe not even guilt, but like this.
Yeah yeah, but I guess yeah, they would have hated him.
So much to be like to be like, only that's the person we've got to use. Yeah.
Yeah. Sure.
He gave very over the top dramatic evidence, as was always his style. It was just that this was the first time he flounced about the witness box. He did. At one point he was asked to he said that Dupass had done a pantomime type action with a knife or like pretending to have a knife, and he actually said to the judge, may I step.
Out of the witness box, Oh my god, And he made the audience creat he's behind you.
I was about to say, not audience, jury, but yeah, yeah, he actually like walked in front of the jury box and was like had his arms up as if he was holding a knife and was doing stabbing motions like yelling out Messina's name, to which like this is in front of the full court. Messina's parents are there sobbing, they're weeping. The jury was shocked and appalled. But I think it did have a really impact. It seems like
a really crazy, depraved thing to do. If that's not actually what he wasn't actually re enacting it, Yeah, yeah, oh yeah. He was always big and over the top and dramatic in court as a lawyer. Now he was being that as a witness.
My god, it's so funny, is both you thought I was so showby? Is that I call the jury my audience, my audience, like all the all world my audience.
So Fraser said in the witness box that Dupatz confessed telling him no one would know he did it because he no forensic evidence behind. Now, from what I've read and understood, he never actually referred to it, like he never said no one will know I killed Mersina. How far guess he spoke about the thing at Faulkner.
Sure, okay.
And one of the things was Fraser was asking him one day about so Peter du Pass was going to him when I said, he was kind of using him as his counsel. He was going to him with all their evidence documents and the sentencings and everything from Margaret mar and Nicole Patterson's murders. They're kind of saying to Fraser like, what can we do with this? Can we appeal?
And in talking about one of those who Pass said they won't know about Faulkner or something about okay, right, no, not in Faulkner, and Fraser went, Faulkner, she was killed in Preston and he goes, yeah, yeah, yeah, Preston. And so then Andrew Fraser went and.
Looked, oh wow, okay, so when you were a bit about it or yes, yep, he.
Spoke about the time he found Dupass cradling the knife. So this is all in the witness box. Whispering was in his name, and while he stated he was absolutely terrified, he did carefully probe for more.
Wow.
He said that the thing about a Dupass with the stabbing motions, and Fraser got up and did this in court, as I just said, Dupass's defense lawyer trying to argue that Fraser's whole story was a lie in order to win attention, to redeem himself, and primarily to provide material for a novel. He was writing about his jail experiences, which, by the way, he did write for Killing Time no called Court in the middle Speed. It plays that when you open the book exactly, it's like those birthday cards.
Beautiful, beautiful.
Yeah. So the defense lawyer said, this guy has been a show pony as long as we've known him. He wants his time back in the media. He wants to redeem himself. So he's now remo, but as the person that took down a murderer, not as the disgraced cooked layds. Sure rebrand, yes, but the jury believed Andrew Fraser. Dupass was found guilty in August two thousand and seven and
sentenced to his third life sentence. There had been a one million dollar reward on offer for Dupass's conviction, so information that led to the arrest and conviction of Messina hal Vargas's murderer there would be a one million dollar reward. Now Fraser has said that he did get some of this, but it's never been revealed how much. Right, Okay, And it was a recommendation by Victoria police that he deserved
the reward. Oh right, They stated unequivocally that they would not have got a conviction without evidence.
That's true because that was the reason. Yeah, wasn't it completely?
So what do you think about that that it was vic Pole that actually said, yep, he should get the reward.
I think it's called egg on their face. Yeah, I think up am I right, Oh, you're so right, got a pig but it would.
Have been I don't think we're allowed to call the police.
My old friend of mine that is like the most by the book person ever and never never does anything bad in his life. He always always anytime he sees a police cargo, thought it smelt bacon. Oh yeah, it's hilarious.
There was a there was a cafe in the town where my sister has a holiday house. There needs to be a cafe in the town called Piglets, And there was a sign leading into the town that said piglets
five hundred meters ahead. And one day, then police Chief Commissioner of Victoria, Christine Nixon, was driving into town to do an opening of something in this little town and saw the sign saying piglets ahead, and she thought they'd put that up to take the piece out of her like, and then she went to the cafe and was like, oh wait.
It's not about that. No, I think I would think have been quite That's that's a lot of of swallowing your dignity, I think, you know, for them to do that.
I think it's actually quite admirable. Yeah.
Yeah.
It wasn't any of the detectives who had anything to do with him directly, No, that's true, getting him behind bars and stuff. I don't know if some of them, because obviously would have been the homicide squad. Yeah, some of them very well, may have worked on some of the some cases that he had defended, yeah, you know, like the doctor death and stuff. I don't know if there was any crossover with them, but I do think it's quite admirable for them to say to not try
to fight the reward money. They're like, no, if we put out a reward for.
This and he got the convictions, and you kind of see, like you know, in those kind of older TV shows of cops back then, you kind of see them as people that just hate the crims so much. They're so mad about it. It's actually quite.
Yeah, yeah, but they hate the crim's defense lawyers.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah.
So after Andrew Fraser's release from prison in two thousand and six, he rebuilt his life from scratch as an author, a documentary maker, and public speaker. Now, I say from scratch.
He was signed by Maxim Sparks. Is that right?
I don't have that. You think everyone is.
I think everyone should be signed by Max and Sparks.
Uh.
Yeah, I say it's rebuilt his life from a scratch in terms of money. His wife, who had stayed with him throughout his prison sentence, towards the end said when you get out, you're not going to be coming back. Split up. He had two children who you know, he'd missed five years of their lives. He was living in housing that was provided by you know, the parole board. He was threatened multiple times in the lead up to
Dupass's trial. Oh okay, right, I received anonymous threats, yeah, saying you know, don't dog all of this.
Imagine like the Underworld people would have been quite scared as well and been like don't you because I guess one it's a domino effect, isn't it exactly?
And the Underworld gat walls were I think they were pretty much all like the main part of Melbourne's underworld Ganglane war was kind of wrapped up by two thousand and six.
But have you met Sushi Mango? They are killing the world with comedy right now?
Don't you get defamation? Gas? That was a joke everybody for them not killing them with comedies. I kay to say, there are the people were the people that kind of in the Gangland world that got away from ever being convicted or weren't then, that were still around, it'd be pretty terrifying. Sure, although he represented some of them, he
also represented the enemies of some of them. Yeah, it was a pretty terrifying way I would think to go back into life, especially absolutely so loud and proud and rich.
Yes, yeah, and kept making a scene of kind of saying you just I just never asked them if they did it all, you know, like that the way he kind of paraded himself.
And he was given a lot of flak for the fact that he was the style witness for Peter du Pass. People that were very thankful for it, but there was also a lot that kind of tongue in cheek or role in the idea he has to be the center of attention again. Of course he has to redeem himself and then you know, I say he rebuilt his life from scratch, is an author and public speaker and stuff. It was about his life and his time, so it wasn't starting from scratch finding a whole new career and everything.
He used his life story to then get success of some form. Yeah, this conviction as well.
Well, it's good that he kind of went for a like under the radar publicist Marx and Sparks Off has said Max and Sparks before, but Marks and Sparks and I would like to put on the record Sushi Mango have never.
Killed that we know of that.
We know.
He phrasedes Whears that from the moment he was arrested. He has never ever touched an illicit drug again, and I think I would believe him from that. Yeah, yeah, literally sobering wake up call.
Also, can I just say, real, real quick, have you ever found out why they're called sushi Mango? No, And it's not spelled it's very weird for like an Italian and it's not spelled sushi as the Italian sketch group. Anyway, Please, you.
Don't know you were just no I'm just asking, okay, if anyone.
Knows, if you no one's called sushi Mango, if no one.
Knows what we're talking about the Australian comedy trio Andrew Fraser did almost become a star witness in another murder case, again against Peter Dupass Wow. In twenty thirteen, police reopened the murder investigation of a ninety five year old Kathleen Downs, who had been killed in a very similar manner to Dupass's other known victims. So when they reopened to the case, they again called Fraser in, who said that Dupas had
opened up about Kathleen's death, mentioning it three times. He said Dupas referred to the ninety five year old as the old sheer light down the road. He lived in Pascoval, near the unsolved murder in Brunswick, which Wow Dupass had once told him, quote, I reckon, I'm going to end up wearing the old shiler as well, meaning Fraser interpreted he would be implicated in miss Down's death as well as help arcas. Yeah, sure, he said he could so.
Fraser said he could do without further publicity relating to du Pass, but he did feel when police asked him he needed to speak up, so he held onto this for years. It was also only three mentions of the old shiller down the road. It was far less convincing to Fraser as a lawyer, as evidence and what he went through in defense, in speaking out and being a witness against du Pass the first time. I'm not this man is behind bars for the rest of his life. I'm not. I don't need to get him, help get
him convicted of a fourth murder. I don't have enough evidence on my own. I don't need to do this. But then when they reopen the murder investigation, he went, there are these three things, he.
Said to my god, the way you're gonna have to read about it in my book exactly, and Maxon just gives him the thumbs up, sucks.
And smucks Jupas felt he needed then to speak up. He was also spurred on by a cancer diagnosis that made him recess a lot. So you think that a lot when when someone has, of course it's a near death experience or in illness, they go, Okay, what could I what's my legacy here?
Well, I wish it happened with criminals that have killed And I'm not saying where the fucking body is? And I'm sorry to swear like that.
No, I do it. I swear all the god you're cool man, think youll Yeah, we say that all the time. People murderers who are on their death bed, they just confess.
You have those Paul victims family some sort of opportunity to bury their loved one or grieve properly.
So Andrew Fraser agreed to be prosecution witness again. However, the case would end up falling over once again because of Andrew Fraser never to be the one who wasn't the center of attention. By the time the case would be heard, Fraser was too sick with cancer to give evidence. Police were forced to abandon hopes of charges in this murder. But Kathleen Down's family hold no resentment towards Andrew Fraser
for not speaking out earlier. They have peace knowing to pass was the killer and then he would never be released.
Yeah. Sure, it's so hard imagine just not knowing one but also being.
Like well, they they said, the justice, the legal system in it would just be about having it on paper. They say they know one hundred percent it is him and one again and really thanked Andrew Fraser for telling them that he about these other things, so they at least knew. So I said he had cancer. He was getting more and more sick and was too sick to be able to even be a witness in a case.
So on Andrew Fraser's death, I'm going to steal the words here of crime reporter from the Age newspaper, Andrew Rule, who is one of the most brilliant writers in the world, and get him on the podcast. He's got his own podcast. I don't think you want to come on out, but we can try. He is also one of the I believe. Hang on, I'm going to google this before I say the wrong thing.
Okay, I will say something then about Max Markson. If you're listening to the podcast, we think you represent some of the greatest acts currently living.
I don't.
I do.
I think you know what you did for Bill Clinton with his book. So we're in Australia's the answer, and I was right.
It's always good to check though. Andrew Rule was one of the writers of the original books named Underbelly, then turned into the incredible TV series in Australia See Change, Sea Change. I've been talking a lot about the Melbourne gangland War. In this episode, listeners, I implore you to find under Belly's season one.
Yeah, I wonder where it's available, but yeah, we watched it.
It's probably on stand or like one of them. Yeah, look wherever you are in the world. Look if you can find it under Belly season one. There are many seasons and they're all good, but the first season is one of the best austrolling TV shows with Goton ground at the airport is around Vince Colossimo.
Yeah, I didn't see the airport.
And there's also other Roger Corser.
Our friend Jane Harbor, Beautiful Jane Harbor, we love.
Perhaps she's not listening to this episode. We thought of three other people before.
She came to my housewarming, and and she every single time someone would bring some sort of presence or something, you know, beautiful housewoman gives you go that's from all of us.
To do.
Every single time, that's from all of us. It just shouts to get across the place. That's from all of us.
So Under Belly season one. Jane Harbor is the girl in the first episode who's wearing the slippers when she goes out driving. You'll know that it's a fan tas to show and a lot of these characters are in at the Morans. Yeah, watch it. It's great anyway. One of the writers of it was Andrew Rule. The other John Sylvester, another very famous Melbourne crime writer. So I'm stealing Andrew Ruhle's beautiful words here about Andrew Fraser's passing. The man who lived life on his own terms, though
not always wisely left it the same way. On Wednesday, August nine, twenty twenty three, after a lengthy cancer battle, he called friends from his palliative care bed to say goodbye. I'm pulling the plug, he told one friend. Just before eleven am. He waited for his son Lachlan to arrive at his bedside to join his second wife. At his own request phrases, oxygen supply was turned off and he
died around one thirty PM. And I just use his wording in that because I absolutely adore how he said, the man who lived life on his own terms, though not always wisely left it the same way.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, because that to me sums.
Up Andrew Fraser. I have been obsessed with this story. Now, First, I say three kind of sources or just recommendations if you want to know more about this. The TV show Killing Time, which is an Australian television show as well. It stars our favorite David Wynham playing Andrew Fraser. You love that guy. I think it is a brilliant show. I reach at the time. I rewatch it again. It's from like twenty ten or something. It's brilliant and you really kind of get a look into the unravelings life.
Got to see what's written by because there's this. There's quite a few Australian writers that write everything, and what they do is brilliant.
It's not an Underbelly season.
Yeah, okay, but it's Killing Time, so is it a few seasons?
No?
No, no, it's just his story. It's just his story.
And that David Wenham, he is so so good, like in everything. He's recently in Fake as well, which is oh Asha Eddy and oh my god, the way he is able to play someone so likable but unlikable at the same time. I think David Wenham just has his uncanny ability to get lost in whatever part he's playing. Having said that, I.
Do call him Dan of course he did. Written by Ian David mac gudge and Catherine Thompson and Sean Grant.
Oh yeah, I've heard. I've heard of those. They had a lot of Australian television.
Okay, they wrote Killing Time. It's right.
I think they're on Rake as well, those people. Yeah right, yeah, yeah, I feel as right as were.
Yeah, okay, And if you're going to watch it, they go into the Walls Street killings a lot, which I have not gone into depth about here because I keep saying I'll do that. It's a story. Caught in the middle is Phraser's book.
And CEO You are two, that's right.
And Andrew rules podcast. He's got a podcast, but there is a kind of like an offset side podcast he's done called Cops, Crims and Cocaine.
Oh okay.
He interviews Andrew Fraser over the three episodes, and a lot of this I got from yeah, his own words listening to that. He spoke a lot in media after his release. He spoke a lot about what happened, a lot about Louis Moran and Deadis Allen. I didn't speak much about Walsh Street. I my interpretation of that is perhaps the again I'm going to use the word guilt, but I don't know if it's the right word around
his involvement in getting them off. He says quite openly that he knows Victor Pierce was okay, at least Victor Pierce was guilty.
Yep.
Yeah, but it's really interesting. The episodes with him are like a chat with him. It's not kind of explaining history and depth. But they're the sources. I hadn't thought you guys might be interested in listening to a watching I've just I think I first.
Oh no, no, of course.
So I was going to say I think I first heard about it watching Killing Time. That's not true at all. I was there. I said this in the PDDO Bassett episode. I was doing work experience in with Channel ten News doing a court story. So we were in court one day when all the court reporters phones started going mental, and it was when it had come out that Andrew Fraser was not even that he was, that Messina hal Vargas's murderer had been charged. Wow, and so that was
a huge, big news day. And then of course it came out from that. It was because they received new evidence from Andrew Fraser from so that was for my nerdy little journal brain, especially at work experience age. I was like, this is so exciting. This is something in history. There's going to be closure for a family who's been looking for a killer for years. There's a lawyer involved
who's been disgraced himself. This is so exciting. So that made me really excited about crime reporting, but also made me really quite obsessed with this du Pass and Andrew Fraser cases. And it's one of those stories that I just find It's got everything right. It's got a disgraced lawyer, it's got a lawyer that people fucking hated. It's got one of the most infamous police shootings in Australian history. It's got two of the most infamous drug lords and murderers.
It's got Jay l it's got another murderer. It's just I love it.
Yes, it's fascinating, especially to happen in Melbourne as well.
It feels like a TV show.
It absolutely does. It is called Killing Time.
Yes, just when I was giggling, then who wrote it? The number one question that came up was is it based on a true story? It should be, It's like that wild.
I'm going to tell you a story next week for our Christmas A week of episodes. I'm going to tell you a story that you will not believe. He's already not a TV show or a movie trademarket TM. I would also like to ask you the question, is Andrew Fraser related to Dorm Fraser.
Well you pronounced Frasier wrong, then don't know. But I have not seen.
Anywhere derogatory because she came to my school. So I was I was a big swimmer in school and she was a I was a large her. I just took up the whole pool and I uh yeah, Dorm Fraser came to do a speech at our school, and she was an Olympic star. She was incredible and everything, and she told me to go away. I try to speak to her.
What do you mean?
I want to speak to her after It's like, hi, Dawn, I I would love to be a swimmer one day of all kind of loves. When she went go away?
No she did?
Yeah she did? Yeah? Yeah that's awful.
Was she the one that stole the flag or something got in trouble?
Yea, yeah, she's she had a lot of controversy which to do that is it? Well, it's so funny. Yeah, Frase will be great for that. As well as rex Hunt is the other one that I really want to do, but I.
So rex Hunt is such a dangerous name to.
Oh my god quickly. But yeah, so I anytime that Dawn Fraser later had any public speaking things where she would say something awful, my friend, one of my best friends, always message all that is, you'd be happy about that just because of praise it down. It's like Margaret Court. Every time I hear something bad about Margaret Court. I think Dawn and Margaret Court are kind of the same person derogatory. But come at me.
This is the funny thing, right, Just because someone is an incredibly gifted athlete does not mean they're going to be going to be a good person.
No, I will. I think you've done speeches at schools.
Put all your minds back to our episode on Oscar Pistorius.
Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. People not always good people. That is so fascinating about Andrew Fraser. Though I I didn't know the story, and when you talked about it in the pe Do Pats episode, going this is going to be a whole story, I was like, do you like how?
I was like how because I was like, yeah, but the lawyer was in jail and then got another guy.
Yeah, but that is fascinating.
There's so much more to it. I also didn't go into it all the fact that he was Alan Bond's lawyer.
Wow, okay, I.
Don't know about that. If you're listening, give a quick google an Australian businessman who lost a lot of people a lot of money.
That would be a great America's cup That'd be a great episode as well.
Phraser was his lawyer as well, like he was. He's going to be some crossover stories.
Yeah, yeah, there's going to be some crossovers episode one day. Yeah, all about all the Drew phrase. Look, I before we go to the mail bag today, g Love. We have had quite a lot of messages this week about Joe Chinkway, the episode that was this week, and a lot of people have actually sent through messages about the jo jin Quay episode. Some people sent through an interview that was
done with a new Oh after sixty minutes one. No, it was an interview on a podcast on ABC, and it was someone that went to meet with her and had a discussion And I would like to just play a little bit of that when was here to be pleased the interview. So this was released in twenty sixteen. Okay, yep, so this was on ABC on a podcast called Life Matters.
State this wouldn't have happened? Is one my mother who across his team a number of times try to be offense occurring and you know, I fell through the cracks, as.
A lot of women do.
So that's kind of true, Like there's your individual responsibility. But at the time when this happened, you told a lot of people what you were thinking about, and nobody helped you. Nobody he told Joe, nobody told the police. So how much fault do you place on the people around you?
I don't want to put the fold is mine, you know what I mean. I don't want to put the fould is mine for not listening to people and seeking out.
The mental health support that I should have. Writ it. So you take responsibility for it, absolutely?
Yes.
So the film that's currently been made, what's in post production of Helen Garner's book Jating Ways Constellation?
Yeah, how do you feel about that?
Very soon, within the next six months or so, there's going to be a film where you are the lead character.
It's very confronting again to have to relieve all of that, and I do fear that because it's based on Helen's book, that it won't adequately explore the mental health aspects. I guess there's a sense of I don't know what the what what's going to happen, So I have a kind of uncertainty.
Have you been attacted by the filmmakers?
No?
Do you wish that you were contacted by them so that you could participate in some way?
Well, on that point of female evans being talked to rather being brother than being talked about, it would have been nice if they's kind of talked to me and I don't know, gained some understanding about where I was at that in that at that time. Why do you think they haven't because I guess they're not interested. I haven't seen the film, so I don't know what it's
what it's how I'm going to portrayed. But I guess, like Helen's book, there's a particular angle I assume that they're going to base it on, and so mine wouldn't be relevant to that, especially if you want to paint me is evil rather than mentally ill or as no need to talk to you.
Do you see yourself as mentally as opposed to evil, you know, if not right now, but looking back at.
Twenty years yeah, absolutely off the planet mentally meant well, this is saying that, you know, evil's rare, but mental illness is real. You know, having been treated now adequately, I can see just how I'm really unwell I was.
Now.
That is a thirty minute interview. I found it fascinating. I think it's a few listeners sent it to us Chris audio. I mean, you can some of the great audio, but it's recording on.
To been around very long. No, no, no, sixteen that's probably good for a podcasting, but yeah, it is.
It is a really, really difficult interview. She says that she was prescribed zoloft and that made everything better. She realized that if she had been prescribed zoloft earlier, none of this would have happened. She blames it all on the doctors that misdiagnosed her, which is heinous in.
Itself because an antidepress.
And disat Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
She was claiming far more than oh.
My god, it was it was a severe mental health issue, like she was in crisis mode. She was meant to be committed quite a few times. By her parents. She didn't end up going that interview is wild. It is. It's just a fascinating, fascinating interview, and I think it is really interesting the way that she talks about Obviously she doesn't blame the other people, but to ask the question were you mentally ill or evil? Is such a
such an interesting line of questioning. I find it really interesting. Firstly, she didn't sound like I thought she would sound a lot older. When you when you kind of paint a picture of someone, you go, oh my god, they yeah, yeah. And then now she is doing her well. She used to actually finished her PhD on the women in in I don't know what it was called, but it was like women are incarcerated. And she talks about this now
and she's saying, yep, but there's there's more issue. She continually says in the podcast, there are more issues at stake. It's about women who are incarcerated, it's about the numbers that are increasing. Why are they doing this? And there is at no point she goes, I killed Joe Chinkwe there is nothing about that. It is just her continually saying, why are we're not going to the wider issues, the bigger issues. It's like, because the big issue is you murdered your boyfriend at the time.
What angered me about that snippet there is that she said, well, if they're basing it off Helen Garner's book, then they won't want to speak to me because they just want to portray me as evil. But you read the book and came out of that saying I have a totally new view.
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, because.
I understood through reading the book about her mental health struggles.
Yeah.
Yeah, So that's fascinating for her to go, well, she just wants to blame me. Yeah, yeah, fascinating.
Yeah, And thank you to all the people that had sent me that, Like that is so interesting as just a point of I guess after you do it. I did not listen to it before I did the episode, which shows what great research I do. But but you know, but it would be not but but yeah, but it was really interesting. And we've had, you know, a lot of letters that have come after that as well, like a lot of beautiful, beautiful internet letters, and we're going
to go soon to the letters. But I just wanted to kind of read this one from a wonderful listener, Renee.
Is this not us going to the letters now then kick it off with this.
Well, you know it's a lot more ating for me, but yeah, sure, Hey Sammy and g it's Renee again. Just a quick note. In the Joe Chinkway episode, you talked about that terrifying moment of having to call Triple zero without knowing the exact address. Not that that was her issue, but it's such a real world fear. So I want to share a handy tip I learned during my first aid course. Thought you might want to share it with your listeners. You never know when it Matt
might save a lot. In Australia, there's an app called Emergency Plus that uses a system called what three Words, which breaks the entire world into tiny three meters squares, each identify by a unique three word address. If you call Triple zero through the app, you can simply read out those three words and the operator will know your exact location instantly. If you can also use a three word address even if you don't call, oh sorry, you can also use the three letter word address even if
you don't call through the app. By using the Emergency Plus makes it easier because it combines GPS location What three Words and calling Triple zero all in one go more info here, and she's she's put the the yeah, the dress below, which I'll put in the show notes. Stay horrendous. Love you guys, right, But yeah, but I thought that was interesting. Yeah. What interesting thing though was a you know when when you think about how long that call talk, well, that's.
As she said, she was putting.
It wasn't her, that wasn't her.
She was her, she knew the address.
But yeah, just an interesting thing. And you know what, now we're going to go to the Amount mag