Has there ever been a bigger gap between performance and expectation?

Hi, I'm Will Bruin, and I was just recognized as a Seattle Sounders legend. Now I get to do voice reads for the Sounder at Heart podcast network. And now they truly can start the celebrations It's the Sounders MLS Cup! This is a tiny dog. Nice work on your little yacht thing. You know, what was the thought process in terms of who you decided to use and who you didn't? Ever since it sounded horrible to... commentary that we didn't take the outcome seriously.

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Welcome to another episode of Nos Adietes, part of the Sounder at Heart podcast network, sponsored by Full Pool Wines, Hacks and Ferments, and our subscribers. We're recording on Tuesday, June 10th, 2025. I am your host, Jeremiah Shan. Joining me today is my co-host Aaron Campo and our producer Lickit. Well, Aaron, this was been quite a week in many, many ways, but we are now...

approaching the club world cup. And it's funny to think, you know, just a couple of weeks ago, the Sounders felt like they were flying high and they were just soaring into this club world cup. There was a pretty felt like a pretty realistic path to them. getting even with the white caps at the top of the Western conference. And yet here we are after two straight losses, the last one, a three zero loss at Vancouver. And it's not just the three zero loss. It's that Vancouver was missing nine.

seven of them starters. And then half the other, the rest of the guys had been sick all week. And this was, you know, they were, they were like talking about trying to get out of this game. And, and, and sure enough, it was the Sounders who didn't show up. Yeah, it's really hard to think of what to say about a game like that. And I think in a vacuum, maybe you just say, you know.

Weird stuff happens over the course of an MLS season, but I think in the context of the last month or so of performances, it's really concerning. I think obviously the scoreline doesn't necessarily reflect the actual... game up until the sending off the sendings off, I guess. Yeah. The Whitecaps were had 1-0 when Nuhu was sent off, but I didn't think they'd really been any better. I thought the Sounders looked capable of scoring.

And I felt like if the Sounders got a goal, they were, you know, good, good bet to get another one. That was a young Vancouver team that, you know, played well. Like, I don't want to take anything away from them, but that game still very much felt. in the balance when you have got sent off yeah even after even after bell got sent off the sounders created a couple of decent chances and it was they did then they had a

They had like a penalty shout and they had a, you know, the thing that they honestly, they had like a dog. So red shout too, because there was a play over the top where the defender looked like he handled the ball and he was the last defender. Very similar to the Houston game where there was a dog so red. And it was interesting because I don't.

I'm not going to blame the refereeing on this game. The Sounders shot themselves in the foot. They did not create enough chances. They own this game. But I also think it's fair to be a little frustrated with the refereeing in this one. New Who's Red, Stone Cold. I got no issue with that. He gets beat. He takes a bad angle. He drags the defender down. He's the only defender back.

That's going to be a red almost every single time. The John Bell one, especially the fact that it's like three minutes later, their feet kind of get tangled up. maybe like, I don't know. I've, I've been watching these replays and I, and I realize you kind of see what you want in these. I don't know how obvious it is that they actually, that he actually trips them. Like it's, it looks kind of like he stumbles a little bit to me.

I don't know. But either way, Christian Roldan looks like he's in a position to recover. And it feels to me like this is a classic situation you see many times where, look, I just sent a guy off. I don't need to send another guy off. And he didn't hesitate. He was like ready to pull the red. And then after that, he seemed to have no real interest in sort of like evening and up, I guess. Not that you really want that.

literally, but I don't know. It was just a very frustrating refereeing game. And I don't, again, not to excuse the Sounders play, the Sounders played like dog crap. Like they. Didn't deserve points out of that game after everything that happened, but still frustrating. Extremely frustrating. Yeah, I think that I'm actually less convinced that the new call was as clear of a red card as everybody else seems to be. Oh, really? Yeah, I don't...

I'm I don't think that it's one that if it's called, you can complain too much. I do think that the angle there and the fact that there were. players in some somewhat in the vicinity that had an angle on the ball is enough for me to say. I don't think it's cut and dried dogs out, but I'm willing to concede that one. Right. Okay. The Bell one, I think is just.

Awful, awful call. I just, I, I, I'm with you. I'm totally not convinced there was any contact. And then if there was contact that it's clearly Bell's fault. And beyond that, I think that there's clearly another player in the neighborhood and capable of cleaning that up. I don't think it's a dog zone at all. I feel like that is a call that you see go against your team.

or not go against your team, that you see your team suffer the foul in that situation probably 10 times a year, that exact play. And I think maybe once, maybe it gets called. as a dog so and i think if it does you feel like you got real real lucky um so yeah i think like it's it's very clear that those reds change the game The one on Nuhu, even though I'm less convinced, I think, than the consensus that it was a red card, I think it's a really awful foul that Nuhu can't be given up. I just...

I'm watching it again now, and I see what you're saying as far as the there's like Reagan seems like he's in position to defend it. But honestly, that's kind of what makes it more annoying is that. He doesn't need to drag him down there. He has to know that it's a dangerous situation. He is potentially going to get a dog so red there, and he just has to know better.

than to do that. And he misplays it. He misplays it. That's bad. But then he just completely compounds the mistake by dragging down the attacker. Uh, I, I'm, I can, I guess I can see how this wouldn't be a red. Like there's a world where he's far enough from the goal where, you know, he's at a bad angle. He's not totally in on, like, I don't think he's actually, I mean, I guess to your point.

If he doesn't get tackled and he cuts in, he's not just in. He's got to beat another defender still. So in that sense, you're probably right. It might not be – like Dogso is probably harsh there. I just am more annoyed at the kind of brain dead decision on Newton's part. I think it's a red card often enough that you cannot allow the referee to make the determination. Right. That's sort of my point. And I also just think like everybody makes mistakes. Every player makes mistakes.

This specifically is the thing that justifies Nuhu being on the field. This exact situation. Right, like desperation defending.

yeah and he just he just gets beat and then instead i think there's a way you make that foul there that it doesn't get called a red card i think it was the combination of being sort of borderline dogzo and being a horse collar tackle yeah that makes it much easier for the referee to pull a red card there and and i guess to the larger point of the game right because i think we both agree that the performance was not good enough regardless of the red cards it was indicative of just that

kind of bad decision making that this team, frankly, is too experienced to be making those kinds of decisions. Totally agree. Totally agree. The strength of this team is supposed to be that they don't beat themselves. They aren't necessarily the highest ceiling team, but they don't beat themselves. That's sort of the... That's their thing. And this game, especially, especially.

they just beat themselves. They, they really did. They didn't put any shots on frame. And I guess you go, Oh, well you play 35 minutes down to men. How many, how many shots on how much, how dangerous are you going to be? Well, Okay, fair enough. But they played 50 minutes, 11v11, and they didn't put any shots on frame in those either. And they really only had a couple good looks. It was just a...

a performance where it didn't feel like their heads were ever in it. And I don't, and I, and I think that there is something to be said about the distractions that are around this team, namely the distractions around the whole club world cup bonus thing.

But I actually thought that Kalani Kosarienzi in the postgame had some very astute observations, which is, yeah, this is a distraction. Yeah, this sucks. But we can't use that. That can't be an excuse. We still have to go out. We have to perform. This is why we're doing this. We're not like. The bonuses ultimately are not that much. Don't get me wrong. I'm sure these guys would rather have an extra $40,000 or $50,000 in their pocket than not.

None of these guys are doing this for that money. It's all about building towards something bigger and better and to just throw away two games. seemingly in at least in part because you were distracted that's not like that it's let's like let me be clear here It's okay to be distracted. It's okay to be frustrated. It's okay to feel like you want to make a big deal out of this. I'm not diminishing the case that the players have, but you still got to go out and you got to perform.

And I think that's kind of the point that Schmetzer was maybe not so eloquently making, which is look, I think the effort was there, but you are, but the players are opening themselves up for this criticism by playing badly two weeks in a row. And they did play badly two weeks in a row. They played below their standards. And I think the other thing that's frustrating is they had, you know, the two games before that, they'd ground out these hard wins. They had beaten pretty good teams.

And they weren't necessarily playing great, but they figured out how to win. And then they played two teams who are, look, the Whitecaps are a very good team. This was not their A team.

no minnesota is a pretty good team i'm not convinced that minnesota is that like is that good uh and they just made dumb mistakes it's very very frustrating it is it really is and like that minnesota game should have been a win um you should expect to beat that minnesota team at home if you have the aspirations that you have you should expect to beat that specific Whitecaps team or at least get a point, right? If you're playing the full meal, they have to beat.

The Whitecaps game was basically a must-win game. If you put it on paper that you're going to get to play the Whitecaps on full rest. They're coming off of an emotional loss. They got sick the week before. And oh, by the way, they're missing almost all their best players. You got to win that game.

you really do you really do but even if you're trying to be nice right right yeah yeah sure um but yeah i and it's just i think that the one of the the main things that's really frustrating to me about um these last two games especially and it's it's a complaint that i have about the last i don't know six weeks i guess in general but but really the last two games are when it's actually cost them in terms of

points is that Minnesota is a team that sits deep and looks the counter and they're extremely good at it. Right. Yeah. The Whitecaps are a team who. Typically, they do counter really well, but they don't sit deep. They obviously like a lot of possession. They have that kind of thing going on. But in this game, they just want to sit back.

Yeah, they sat deep and they looked to counter and they looked reasonably effective going forward, but they didn't look that good going forward. I think in both of those games. They looked good going forward after the red cards. I mean, that's I mean, they looked OK. I mean, they got a penalty and then a goal that was, you know, a 22 yard strike where you don't have enough players to really close them out. But go on. Right. Yeah.

And I think that, and the Sounders as well have been a team that when they have looked their best, and this is not just this year, this is the last couple of years to me, they have looked their best when they are not looking to dominate possession. when they are looking to press teams when the opportunity is right, when they're looking to try to get out on the counter, when they're looking to go from front to back quickly.

That's when they've looked their best. That's when they've looked their most dangerous. That's when they have had their best results. It's what they did down the stretch and into the playoffs last year and had a great deal of success. It's what they were doing earlier this season when they looked like one of the better teams in the league. And for whatever reason, they decide they want to go back to being this team that dominates possession, dominates the ball.

and unlocks defenses. But the problem is that they can't unlock the defenses. They've shown no repeatable ability to unlock the defenses, especially the ones that are sat this deep. You have to give these teams the ball and say, all right, here you go. Come at us. We are letting you have the ball. What can you do with it? Because they don't want the ball either. You know, you have to turn this into a cagey or game rather than just continually continuously.

pounding your head into the wall. And if you're going to continuously pound your head into the wall, then one or two of your dribbly wingers, both of them ideally should be trying to take on guys and get to the end line instead of.

doing a couple of step overs and passing backwards. It's crazy. Like that's why you go out and get a player like Pedro de la Vega. That's why you go out and get a player like Ryan Kent. But it seems like everybody is so terrified of turning the ball over that they won't try to take anybody on. They're just trying to.

get into the channels, get into the channels, but not by dribbling past anyone, by trying to work the ball into the channels. And it's just, we have a ton of evidence to suggest that they are not capable of being effective in the attack this way. And they keep going back to it. And I do not understand it.

Yeah, it does feel like this was maybe a team who... I don't know if moving away from the 3-4-2-1 was a mistake, but it did feel like they... were a little bit more aggressive sometimes in, in the way that they approached certain things. The, the four, two, three, one is, you know, like I, I, I like the thought of, of Kent and. And De La Vega is the wingers there. But and I suppose in theory, that was the that was the formation that would have worked with with.

jesus ferreira as the number nine but this was also a game that felt like it was calling for danny masofsky uh yeah absolutely yeah uh i it's You know, I don't know. It's it's very it's I don't quite understand or understand the I mean, I don't know. I guess there was some there's logic. I don't want to say there's not logic to the Jesus for playing number nine when Masovsky is.

you know, reason playing reasonably well, but yeah, it, it, and, and this was Spencer admitted it was, it was probably a mistake in hindsight, especially if, you know, seeing how, how. Vancouver approach this game but it's it's just yeah I mean I don't know I don't know. I don't know. It's very frustrating to be going into the Club World Cup, and they're missing so many pieces. The fact that Jordan Morris gets hurt.

in training the week heading into this game, it looked like he was going to be ready for the Club World Cup. That Yamar, apparently, it sounds like he may have suffered a setback as well, so it doesn't look like he's going to be... ready for the club world cup i don't know what's going on with kim i don't know if he'll make a miraculous return but you know i think we're seeing some of the front you know like john bell and john bell's not a bad player

But he shouldn't be starting. Jackson Reagan, I think, is a very good player, but he needs like a real sort of like lock it down defender next to him. And. But then at the same time, like knew who I thought knew was mainly at fault for the first two, you know, for the first goal. And then of course the red card, he's not marking anyone on the, on that pass into the box. Like what's he doing there?

knew who's out on the field to be your sort of, you know, like super, super, like the whole point of his, his, his whole value proposition is that he is a great defender and. He makes two massive mistakes in this game that cost the Sounders horribly. Right. And not just... Sorry to interrupt, but not just that he's a great defender, that he is a great defender in those specific situations. Right. His 1v1 defending is his last gasp defending. That's why he's in the lineup.

Yeah. Well, it doesn't fill me with anticipation and hope going into the Club World Cup. I mean, it's hard to overstate how... far from ideal the the feeling is around this team right now going into what should be a celebratory like I don't think getting beat in the Club World Cup is the worst case scenario I don't think

going oh and three in the club world cup is anything like the worst case scenario the worst case scenario is that you just go out there and you just get absolutely embarrassed every game and i don't i don't think i'm not gonna say that's going to happen but it definitely feels like it's on the, it's on the cards. Like it's certainly one of the possibilities. Yeah, I was, we did our predictions last, last week and I was a lot more optimistic then than I am now.

Oh, God, I'll say that much. And that was a week ago. So I guess if you want to look, if you want to some reason for optimism. The Sounders have kind of. found a way to make midseason tournaments. work as sort of a point to turn things around. Like the Leagues Cup was kind of the impetus for a turnaround last year. Having, you know, a little bit of time away from the normal routine and a different kind of preparation and different opponents maybe is...

is good for them. Maybe a little more freedom to experiment is good for them. I don't know. But I also think it's kind of grasping at straws to really consider that to be too much of a, you know, a bright side. that's kind of where we're at, I guess. Yeah. I mean, I, I would say that success for the Sounders at this, like if like the bear, like what they, like they.

I would be satisfied if they're competitive in every game. If they go into every game feeling like they had a chance to pull out a result, I feel like that would pretty much quantify success at this point. Yeah. And if they get it, I mean, getting a point would be great. Getting a win would be on, you know, really quite amazing. And if they were to get out of the group.

That would probably be the biggest, like in all seriousness, getting out of this group would be like the biggest accomplishment, the bigger accomplishment than winning CCL maybe, which seems silly, but yet also feels kind of legit. More difficult, definitely. Yeah, maybe more difficult. How much you care. But I think that's a good point. Good point.

If you're but if you're a team looking for positives, you know, I think it's pretty obviously something you would be able to hang your hat on. Yeah, it's just if you can get out of get out of this group, it's you can't be a bad team, right? Yeah. And I don't think the Sounders are a bad team. I mean, at the end of the day, they are what they're in. Sixth place in the West right now. Only.

Not four out of second, right? Four points out of third. Yeah, four points out of second. This is a team that I think is clearly still capable of finishing in the top four in the West and as high as two.

Because I think that they're still capable of playing as well as they played earlier in the season. And if you compare this to last season, I mean, it's, come on, it's night and day. At this point last season, we were talking about... who the next coach should be you know right um it's true yeah it's it's a completely different situation they've still set themselves up reasonably well for a second half run but i'm i'm just

I'm sick of talking about a second half run. Yeah. I'm sick of talking about, well, this team always figures it out down the stretch and they're always right there at the end. The season's long as hell, man.

Yeah, they shouldn't have. The season started in February, and it goes until December. And you know what? The thing is that two weeks ago, we weren't talking like this. And I don't want to overreact to a couple... bad results but they they're the kind of bad results that make you rethink everything you thought uh yeah and and the fact that they are like these injuries like we don't know when this team is going to be full strength i don't know that we should expect

I don't know when this team is going to be full strength. I would think at some point they will. You'd like to think. None of these guys are out forever, but they're not going to be back during the Club World Cup. Right. So maybe you want to run after the global cup, but it's just like, they shouldn't be, we shouldn't be having this conversation. They should be, they should have another, they should at least have three more points right now than they do.

And at least, at least. And the way that just that Vancouver game, this is. Yeah. So it was bad. It was very bad. It was bad. It was bad. It's like I said earlier, man, if it's a game that happens and is a total aberration, you just say a weird shit happens in those leagues. Sometimes you can't be too freaked out about it, but it's it is two bad results in a row.

But if you go back to the two games before that, they were games that they very barely squeaked out that you would expect them to be winning maybe a little more handily. Before that, it was a pretty disappointing draw in Portland. Before that, it was getting smoked by LAFC at home. The last time I felt really good about a performance from this team was Houston.

And that was. And that was against a nine man, a 10 man opponent. Yeah, a 10 man opponent. And then they beat St. Louis before that, which just looks. Like at the time, I honestly, I talked myself into thinking that beating St. Louis the way they did was a really good result. I mean, it was a good result, but yeah, I had talked myself into like, this is a team that hadn't given up at that point. They'd only given up eight goals or something like that.

And the Sounders put four on him and it was like, oh, hey. Yeah, that was a good defensive team. And then in the weeks, they just like St. Louis absolutely self-destructed after that, that loss. And so all of a sudden the Sounders win does not look. nearly as satisfying, especially as you look at it in the bigger context of all these results recently. Right.

I think the last one they had that without any caveats was really impressive was that 3-0 against Nashville. Yeah, that was a... Nashville's a good team. They'd played well on the road. They'd been good defensively, and the Sounders just spanked them. And that, I mean, that was the last time, like, I think you can say that they're...

that they put in just like a great performance against a good team. And that's, it's not a good feeling because I think after that St. Louis game, you know, after that Houston game. I thought, all right, this team is one of the best teams in the league, and it's really hard to feel that way now. It is. Well, I don't want to talk about this anymore. Yeah. So let's take a break.

We'll come back and we're going to talk about the we're going to do a power ranking of the five teams that we think are most likely to win the Club World Cup. club world cup basically in the next segment uh so stick around and we'll be right back Thank you for listening to the Sounder at Heart Podcast Network, which now includes Nos Anietes, Lobbing Scorchers, and The Cooler Guild.

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five four three two one on our power rankings because that's usually how we do it here and we're gonna basically give the teams that we think are most likely to win Not necessarily the best teams, but the teams who are most likely to win the Club World Cup, right? That's what we agreed. This is not a power ranking of quality as much as a power ranking of prediction, if you will. Aaron, I'll let you go ahead and start. Who do you got at number five?

Number five, I have Real Madrid. This is not the best Real Madrid team by any stretch, not the deepest Real Madrid team by any stretch, but it is Real Madrid in a knockout competition. And they are still Real Madrid. So I think they've got a decent shot. I don't think it would shock anybody in the world. So I've got them at five. Yeah. All right. Well, I.

I have Real Madrid a lot higher in my ranking, which we can discuss later as we get to that. But at my number five team is... uh oh shoot where did i put it you've got yours you've got yours backwards i do all right there we go my number five team is flamingo uh that is a brazilian team They are I am really high on the Brazilian team's chances here. And I'll tell you. And so basically, I put two Brazilian teams in my top five. Spoiler alert.

basically I ranked them in the order that I thought which one was the better team. But Flamengo, I think this is my thing with the South American teams. A, they're in mid-season right now. I think that's potentially a pretty big... bonus for them these are they are not far into their season they're not at the beginning they are this is like mid-season for the for them

I think also that they, I think the money for them is probably a pretty big deal. These are players who are paid well, but not necessarily, these are not guys getting tens of millions of dollars a year. And we don't know what they're getting offered from their teams yet. That has not been made public in a lot of places. But my suspicion is that it's going to be worth their while. So yeah, I'm betting heavy on...

basically the South American or specifically the Brazilian teams to do well in this tournament. I will also point out, I'm actually kind of into this. Not that we're people that talk about odds a lot here. We're not a betting show per se, but South America, you can bet on South America at plus nine, any South American team to win the tournament at plus 900.

heavy heavy favorites minus a thousand so that would mean you'd have to bet uh a thousand dollars so it's like one to ten odds essentially is what you're you're talking about there yeah yeah yeah i mean i think that taking the field of south america is a pretty good uh yeah if i was pretty good if that was a thing that we uh condoned on this show uh right what do you got who do you got hit number five aaron four four number four

I've got Inter Milan at number four. I don't I you know, honestly, I don't feel super great about this pick. The more time I've had to think about it, but I'm going to stick with it. I think they're a great team. I think that the reason I don't have them higher is that I think they're a little more top heavy than the other European teams. You're going to notice a theme with my, my picks, I would say. So I think that.

The teams that are going to have the best chance of doing really well in those competitions are teams that are very deep. And Inter Milan is obviously deeper than any of the South American teams, any of the MLS teams, any of the... Asian or African teams, but compared to some of the European teams, they're not quite as deep. But that top end is really, really good. And, you know, I think...

I don't think the European clubs are going to be taking this competition quite as seriously as any of the other confederations, but I do think for a team that just lost in the UEFA Champions League, maybe there's a little extra motivation. So, yeah, that's my number four. Yeah, I'm not going to. Well, I will say my concern with Inter Milan is mainly I guess they were like one of the oldest teams in all of Europe last year. That's a great point, man. So I don't know how like.

I'm not as high on PSG in this tournament. I think neither one of us are. Oh, I don't think either one of us have them as our top team, even though they are by any reasonable metric, the best team in the world right now. And mainly, I think it's mainly because this is so close. It was only two weeks ago that they played in the Champions League final. So Inter Milan, I think, was playing, didn't get to just cruise in either. They actually had to...

No, I mean, Serie A came down to the last day. Yeah, so I just don't think... I'm skeptical Inter Milan's going to be interested, frankly. Yeah, that's fair enough. It's fair enough. My number four team, again, on the same metric, is Palmaris. They are the other Brazilian team right now. They are really kind of a more defensively stout team. They give up less than a goal per game. They don't exactly light it up on offense, but this is a team that's going to be able to grind out a lot of results.

And again, I just really feel good about the way that especially the Brazilian teams are coming in. Now, the Argentinian teams I'm not as high on in part because... They are in their break between the two tournaments. They do a Klausur and Operator set up there. And I guess they are. I'm pretty sure they're between tournaments right now. And they would be.

normally getting ready to start. This is like their preseason, essentially. Their normal preseason would be right around now, and they would be normally getting ready to start their season right around the time that this tournament ends. So I don't know.

maybe I'm over indexing on this stuff, but that's, I got Palm Irish. Yep. It's my number four. Uh, for my number three, I've got PSG. Um, you, you touched on this a little bit, I think, uh, for one.

you're right that maybe there is less motivation for them than for any of the other european clubs although you know that this would be technically a quadruple i guess for them i mean i think there's yeah and i i think there's motive like i also think that they are a Their ownership, if I understand the the politics of all of this and correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is their ownership has sort of been on like the FIFA side of the.

equation when it comes to sort of like all the, you know, like the super league stuff and the, uh, you know, they just seem to be very much like buying. I can see them buying into this project, I guess is what I'm saying. Yeah, that's fair enough. I think that they're definitely in the conversation as the best team in the world. And I think the consensus pick, you could probably make a case for other teams, but...

I'm not super interested in doing that, but I do think that when you compare them to maybe some of the other teams that I have ranked a little higher, I don't think they have quite as much depth. And I do think they're likely to be tired after this season. But, you know, I'm actually looking. I wanted to validate what I said about this being a quadruple.

Technically, this would be a quintuple if they won the tournament. Because they won the Coupe de France. Coupe de France, Trophy des Champions, which is like the... charity shield or whatever they've got which is okay so that's like a pre-season thing or something okay yeah it's like the the coupe de france uh winner versus the league winner um which i mean

Nobody can really win a quintuple and have all of the competitions matter. But, you know, it's they're all trophies and they're all real competitions to varying degrees. But we're definitely in the territory here where if PSG wins this tournament, I am not going to be the least bit surprised.

uh yeah i would i would agree with you there i so i don't have really a whole lot to add about psg except for i've enjoyed doing some or learning a little bit about psg and one of the things i i learned uh this week is that psg is like the p like i've always wondered this like why is psg like the only big the only club in in paris it doesn't seem like it seems like there should be more than and it turns out there is another

relatively high level club in Paris FC. And so there's a funny story about Paris FC and Paris Saint-Germain in that the club was originally called Paris Saint-Germain, the city council of Paris. told them, look, they needed some money from the city council and the city council said, sure, we'll give you the money, but you got to change your name to Paris FC because we don't like the St. Germain deal.

and Paris Saint-Germain said no we're not going to do that and and so they so they basically like kind of like I don't know it's totally clear who broke off from who but I guess Paris FC kept the uh, the, the league one status. And they essentially started from there. I guess they started from scratch kind of, but they, they, they, they got the money and they, they stayed in league. And.

And Paris Saint-Germain got lost their professional status, got sent to the third tier. And then within two years, they were back up into Ligue 1. And then they basically stayed there in Paris FC. dropped down and has only just this year gotten back into Ligon. And so now they will be both in, in Ligon, I believe for the first time, maybe ever, which is kind of a cool little. Yeah.

I think that's true. Yeah. Paris FC is a great, if you want to do a career mode and, and FC 25 or what have you, they're a great team to pick to do that with. But yeah, it is an interesting story. Paris FC is definitely the more likable of the two, I would say. Although they're also, I think they just got bought by the Red Bull organization, right?

uh they're owned by the part partially owned yeah right and louis vuitton and the louis vuitton family right which i guess i don't know which is funny because they They do historically, like their fan base is a little more lefty, I think, historically. Oh, really? Interesting. Yeah. But. Anyway, yeah, it's it is a it is an interesting thing. I mean, it's it is kind of funny how like all throughout Europe. There are certainly like countries where the biggest club by far is in.

the big city which is obviously the case with psg but like they're the only club um or you know the biggest club is from uh from uh you know second or third tier city it's it's an interesting right wrinkle right but all that to say is psg is also your your third place team correct yes they are that's i oh yeah i forgot to mention that was i that's part of why i went on that that uh But anyway, so what do you got at number two? At number two, I have Bayern Munich. Yeah. I mean, Bayern Munich's...

they're Bayern Munich, right? Like we're kind of at the point where there's just really not a whole lot to say. I mean, they're always one of the best teams in the world. They have no competition in their domestic league. I mean, I guess last year they didn't win the title. Well, two years. Most recent season, they dominated again. I guess, yeah.

correct yeah but it was two years ago i guess it is i guess it is two years ago now you're right um yeah so you know they're they can be beaten occasionally but they've won a ridiculous number of titles um You know, they have a lot of European titles, of course, a lot of European hardware as well. Deep, they've got the star power at the top. They've got a lot of really good young players there, you know.

they're an easy pick. I think if you're, if you're just looking to nail, nail the winner. And I've got my number two. Yeah. I actually, I had them at number two as well. It just feels like a. club that will take it serious that has the talent uh you know it's funny we didn't even really talk about the draws of any of these teams but i don't really get the impression like none of these teams are uh

I don't think in particularly tough in groups like that, we would be that we would expect them to struggle to get out of their groups. I don't. Yeah. I mean, PSG is maybe the one that's like. has the toughest go yeah i think yeah that's gonna get out of their group um i don't yeah i don't think they're gonna have any trouble getting out of their group yeah uh so number one who do got number one

Number one, I hate to say it, my least favorite club in the world by a pretty large margin, but it's Manchester City. They could probably play their fourth team. and have a pretty good shot at making a deep run in this competition. Yeah, they're extremely deep everywhere. They've got exceptional high-end talent. Pep Guardiola is... incapable of not taking something seriously this man got in a fight during the mls all-star game um sure did so yeah they're my pick i hope

that they don't win i i'm on record as not caring about this competition at all but i hate them so much that i am actively hoping they don't win but you know uh i i think that they they're the best bet i i wouldn't say i think manchester city is going to win but i think they are the most likely team to win yeah i so i i did not have man city in my top five and i don't know that i can really justify that from a

I mean, I guess I went with the South American teams, but I went with Real Madrid. And part of why I went with Real Madrid has a lot less to do with. the talent or the players or any of that stuff. It's just that this is a club that collects trophies. Like they're going out of style. You know, this is a club that just wants to win.

everything and they want to be first and they want to, you know, they, you know, they, they just love winning. And I just think that if there's one club out there, that's going to treat this like a big deal. And it has a combination of talent. It just feels like it's Real Madrid to me. This is a team that... It is a cool... And I will say it's a cool trophy. So that's something.

I don't know that the players themselves are that motivated by the trophy itself. By the way, it's going to be fascinating to see when whoever wins this thing gets to pick it up and do the trophy raise. It's a beast. and yeah and it has moving parts and it i there's some real potential for uh for comedy i guess is what i'm saying here

Yeah, I mean, I guess the upside to City winning would be they could drop it on Pep or something. That would be pretty good. Yeah, exactly. See? You found a... closes a door etc and so forth exactly well uh anything else about the club world cup you know we had it's funny we did a a club world cup preview with chard and and charlie bohm

yesterday and give you a little peek behind the curtain we did a whole like 45 minute segment at the start that get a that gave an overview of the tournament and talked about a lot of the issues going on and it didn't record properly and we had to bag it. And so it ended up being just, it ended up just being about the, the, the group that's being played in Seattle and the Sounders group. And I don't know how much.

how compelling that was but do you have any other club world cup observations you want to make yeah i mean i would say that um the interesting parts of the club world cup are not what psg is doing like psg atletico has a negative amount of interest for me yeah um

The big games, right? Just do nothing for me. But games like River Plate versus a row of red diamonds. I'm going to that game. Palmaris versus. Yeah, I would. I would love to. I can't go just because of the timing of it, but I would. That was like the game that I. was actually kind of most excited about that should that'll be interesting palmaris al ali should be interesting um river plate monterey should be interesting um the games against teams that

do actually have pride to play for, you know, that are going to be taking the competition a little more seriously. Those should be fun. And they're teams that aren't going to ever play each other in the wild. This is the only time these teams will ever play each other in a competition. And that is the promise of a competition like this to me. That is the thing that makes it interesting.

And I think the fact that that is a complete afterthought to FIFA sort of underscores why I think they have blown this tournament so completely. Why they just don't really understand their product and what they're trying to sell. I would say that that's been kind of one of the thing that I think is going to be fascinating during this tournament is just to see how it evolves and what we sort of end up walking away from, you know, what we really get out of this tournament.

because it does seem like FIFA doesn't really... I understand the sort of meta calculation that they're making here, which is... they're so like FIFA is this massive brand. They make a lot of money off the world cup, but that's really their, that's, that's how they make their money for the most part. Uh, you know, other than grift or whatever.

But in all seriousness, their one big product is the World Cup. And they don't really run important... tournaments otherwise like almost all the important stuff happens at the federation level uh and uefa especially is is running a lot of these a lot of these big valuable tournaments and this is sort of FIFA's play to bring in something important on the club side to their offering to their, you know, to what they do. And, and, and to the degree that.

you can buy into fifa's mission which is you know they distribute a lot of this money to the smaller countries in the world you know the smaller federated like that does happen they they you know it's like obviously the guys at the top are getting rich and whatever, but like, there's not, it's not like the most useless, you know, endeavor that they're going through. And.

So you can see some value in it. But at the same time, I just think they went about this. They approached this tournament all wrong. I just think that they... blew the buildup i think they spent way too much time like so much of the coverage of this tournament early on like after from 23 to from 2023 when it was first really formally announced to really the start of 2025, almost all the coverage about this tournament was focused on two things. One was...

They couldn't sell the broadcast rights. No one wanted to pay their asking price for the broadcast rights. They were way more focused on getting a set amount of money than they were finding the right partner. And then, so that ends up putting them on DAZN, which... No one in the United States really has heard of. It's going to be very strange. And then the other thing that people were talking about was whether or not the European players were even going to play.

Like the European players were talking about boycotting this thing for like two years. And that was almost all the coverage, all the earned media about this was almost exclusively. what a like it was falling on its face type coverage and then once once it started getting into the news cycle of like okay this is actually happening

Almost all the coverage has been, at least locally, has been focused on poor ticket sales and the fight over the player bonuses. And there's almost no hype, no earned media hype about this thing. Fans don't seem to be really buying into it. And I think one of the other miscalculations that FIFA made was they priced this like an elite sporting event. And it's not like people don't know what this is.

I can't tell you how many people I've talked to. They simply don't even understand the concept of what this tournament is. You'd think it sells itself. It's the Club World Cup. It's the same thing as the World Cup, but it's with clubs. okay but is that is that a thing and it's like it kind of was a thing it was a thing before but they had they had spent 25 years putting the brand of the club world cup in the

like tarnishing the brand itself. And I don't know that the average consumer is differentiating this between the international champions cup or whatever other friendly tournaments come rolling through. So it's just been fascinating to see FIFA just kind of fall on its face.

uh during and why like why would you think anything differently of it like the the qualifying doesn't really make a whole lot of sense um the last team to get in got in because uh of a co-owner like a weird co-ownership rule right and they play in a league where the league owns every team so that doesn't really make a whole lot of sense that you like it's just um you've got teams that have never won any

notable trophy in europe you know playing in the competition it's just it's very clear what they want it to be but you have to actually get buy-in from the like the teams competing in it and you have to get buy-in from the fans, and you can't just force it to happen, especially there's so much soccer happening all the time, all the damn time there's soccer. There are international tournaments.

The World Cup's every four years. The Nations League is every two years. The Euros are every... It's just constant, constant, constant. There's all sorts of... club competitions happening it's not just you know like oh there's the the league and then there's the cup and then there's if you're good enough you get into a european competition there are three competitions happening in europe

Like you can finish 12th or whatever in your league and get into your competition at this point. It's there's just so much of it. And there's only so much people can care about. And I mean, I think you and I are. above average level in terms of our interest in soccer i think it's fair to say and like and we like we they can't it's happening in our in our town and and they can't even get us to buy into it um

It's just it's a tough sell, I think. But I do think that it's worth watching some of the less marquee matchups. I think those games could be really fun. Yeah, I will say one of the other things I found kind of funny researching this is. So I don't know if you know this or not, but the reason Liverpool is not in the tournament, even though they would have been the top ranked team by the.

rankings that FIFA used is because Chelsea and Man City got in. And so they created these strange, honestly, I don't. kind of a strange rule where if there were two teams, like you could only get, if you had two teams that qualified their way in through winning champions league, you weren't eligible for an at large spot, which.

I don't know. It just feels like kind of a rule for the sake of a rule. I don't quite understand that. So Liverpool would have been in, but they didn't get in. And so Red Bull Salzburg gets their spot essentially in this tournament. it's like you go and talk about you go from like maybe the i don't know third or fourth most markable team in the world to like a team that almost like they

Red Bull Salzburg has effectively zero following in the United States. I don't think they – and you go – this is a – it's just kind of a funny thing that they get burned by their own rule. And then the thing with Cub Leone – The thing with Club Leone and Pachuca where they Club Leone wins the CONCACAF Champions League in 2023 and then Club Pachuca wins in 2024. So they're both in.

Everything seems to be going fine. They have the draw. They're both in the draw. And then after the draw, FIFA decides, actually, both those teams can't get in because they're owned by the same group. There's no explanation at all, at all, as to why Club Leone, who qualified first, isn't in, but Pachuca is. And I guess the reasoning essentially seems to be that, well...

the owner of the group is called group of Pachuca. So presumably Pachuca's group of Pachuca chose Pachuca to be the representative. And then they come up with like this Koli cockamamie way to get. uh club american lafc to play a qualifier uh then the whole thing with inter miami getting in with by winning the supporter shield uh it's just all very it's just all very funny like there's just so many silly little things in here and it's like

I don't know. It's I don't know that there is a way to market this. Like, I think the way to mark to me, the way to have marketed this is to get it a on the biggest platform you could come up with. Whoever that if it meant taking half the money to get on to I don't know who would be the ESPN would probably be the no brainer, right? That's the no brainer one to because they have ABC and everyone else.

Get on ESPN, whatever it takes. And then price the tickets super, super competitively. As cheap or cheaper than MLS. That's the way you do this. And just and you do a proof of concept in year one. Yeah, no, I think that's a great idea because I think if this tournament is not such a clear and obvious cash grab and you can have the stadiums full and and look like.

It's pretty clear that sporting merit is not the primary concern of this competition, which I think sucks. But whatever, that's the way it's going to be. don't pick rules that make it so you can't have like you said liverpool one of the most marketable teams in the world in the tournament especially in the u.s right like it's it's it's crazy like It seems like they made the worst possible decision about how to make this thing a success at every step of the way. Every step of the way.

I, you know, I guess to a certain extent, they couldn't have predicted that the economy was going to be what it is and people would be cutting back on spending. But like they've known that for a little while. They've I feel like they've known that.

since before prices were were determined um and i don't know man it's a mess and they deserve it to be a mess like it's really hard for me to see this competition surviving in anything like this form past this competition past this year i just i don't see how it happens

The other funny thing is there's probably going to be like this huge security apparatus. I don't know if funny is the wrong word, but there's probably going to be this huge security apparatus around Lumen Field and there's going to be like a normal Sounders crowd. Yeah, there's going to be like... There's going to be like strikers parked outside of there and like snipers on the roofs and it's like 10,000 people going to see, you know, Botafogo. Yeah. Whatever.

There was a thing on King five. It's like, it's going to be like six Seahawks games in the span of two weeks. And it's like, it's going to be like six rain games. Not to slag the rain. Or maybe six hours, but it's like it's going to be like not noticeable on traffic. Right. Especially because the games are happening like it is insane that I am worried about the morning commute to go to a sound. Oh, yeah. But I go.

Because like you have to get to the stadium by like, you know, 10 o'clock to, you know, do like anything like a normal pregame. And yeah, it's it's crazy, man. Whatever. Yeah.

All right. Well, that's probably we did enough. We've done enough on this, Aaron. Yeah. So thank you. Thank you to our sponsors, Full Pull Wines and Hacks and Ferments. And of course, thank you to our subscribers for making this all worthwhile. I'll also give a special shout out to my sister. Marnie O'Shann, who is a realtor and is sponsoring our World Cup Club World Cup coverage. So that's kind of a cool little thing. If you need a house or whatever, you can call her up, email her.

She'll help you out. She actually just a true story. She just helped a friend of mine, uh, find a property in Olympia. So, you know, I can, I can vouch for her bone fetus. Yeah. Anyway. Uh, all right. Well, Aaron, it's been a pleasure hanging out with you, but we should call it a night. Yeah. Uh, thank you to everyone listening to no study at this. I'm Jeremiah Shan signing off for Aaron Campo and lick it. This. There's no study at this, and you'll never get a loan.

I expect the LAFC who's motivated to prove themselves at home, to prove to their fans that they're capable of winning in this league. And it's up to us to really brew in the party.