Bonus Episode: Dana Schwartz on Significant Others

conversation as much as I did. And of course your regular episode will be coming Tuesday. Welcome back to Significant Others. I'm Liza Powell O'Brien, and just because I'm deep in research for season two doesn't mean we have to stop bringing you stories of interesting plus ones. In the first of these bonus episodes, Stacy Schiff and I talked about her new book, The Revolutionary, which is all about Samuel Adams and his wildly underreported role in the birth of America.

So check that one out if you haven't already. And as royal relationships are very much in the media these days, even more than usual, I thought it would be interesting to delve a little bit into the idea of a royal marriage in general, since there really isn't anything else like it, and to talk about a few of the more significant examples of what that kind of a marriage can look like. So I reached out to the absolute Queen no pun intended of such information, historian, author and

host of the delightful podcast Noble Blood, Dana Schwartz. Dana, thank you so much for talking with us today. For anyone who's listening who might not already be familiar with your podcast, could you tell us a little bit about it? Yeah. Absolutely. It's a scripted podcast where I research and write UM episodes, every episode exploring sort of a lesser known story from

the lives of royals throughout history. Some are sort of lesser known stories or aspects about really famous people like Marie Antoinette or Inn Boleyn, but I also try to capture, you know, fascinating stories about people that maybe American listeners might not have even heard about. Like I just recorded an episode about this Portuguese princess named in Nez de Castro, queen actually um but sort of her her gruesome and

tragic death. So yeah, a lot of um perhaps surprising amount of of royal stories and in gruesome deaths, but that's part of the fun. It's so addictive your podcast, I have to really honestly, it's almost problematic because I'll start listening to them and then I realized four hours have gone by and I've done I've attended to no children, I've I've cooked no meals. Um So you have to limit your intake the highest phrase um So. In this podcast,

we focus on intimate relationships. Sometimes parents are friends of

historical figures, you sually it's a spouse. That's because I've always been really personally fascinated by um intense one on relationships, especially marriages, And one of the things I find especially interesting in marriages is power dynamics and how they differ, and when it comes to royal marriages, which is sort of falling under your umbrella of expertise, I find that to be so specific because there's such an inherent power

imbalance baked in from the beginning. Absolutely, and I have just observed myself that there's a whole range of responses that humans throughout history have had to this condition of being put in the position of being a royal spouse and you know, everything from totally compliant to completely revolutionary, and I thought you might be the best person to

walk us through some of those examples. So I'm just wondering if you can what whatever comes to you in response to that idea of like, what are the different ways that this kind of relationship has played out? Absolutely, I think the power dynamic that you're pointing out is so important when we're talking about royal marriages. One because traditionally, let's say for several hundred years, it would be a man in charge of any marriage, you know, any family relationship.

And then to to give someone the power of you know, absolute rule, God's vessel on earth, that power sort of takes on an even bigger light. I think when we're talking about royal wives, the first thing that pops into most people's heads is King Henry the Eighth and his six wives, and what a fascinating saga that is because of the way he went from woman to woman, and I think in the stories these women sort of are are unfortunately always sort of seen in response to him.

And I think it's been a modern movement, like in the musical Six to try to reclaim their own agency and sort of the narrative potential of them. I mean, you think of someone like Henry the Eighth's first wife, Catherine of Aragon, who was his loyal wife at his

side for twenty plus years. I mean, this is a woman who was a princess in her own right, the the daughter of two of the most important monarchs in Europe, the aunt of the Holy Roman Emperor, like the most connected and powerful individual a woman can be at this time, really right, like she's the Queen of England. Her parents are are a king and a queen. Her family is

massively powerful throughout Europe, her you know, nephew. At a certain point, sachs, the Vatican has the Vatican under his control. She has all the mechanisms of power. And yet because this woman, even though she's been a loyal, loving wife for twenty plus years, even though the kingdom loves her, you know, she's seen as this pious woman because she hasn't provided Henry with a son. He does everything in his power to dispose of her. And he he does.

I mean, even though again, like the stop gaps in place to prevent a man just from saying I don't want to be married to you anymore at this point are I mean, he's the head of the church and she's a subject subject but they're Catholic, right, Like, he can't divorce. He will literally separate from the Catholic Church, become excommunicated, start the Church of England. He will do everything in his power to to undermine their marriage, and she has she plays all of her cards and it

doesn't work like that. I think the tragedy of that is so emblematic of the way that a man has power over his wife in certain ways. But then and again not to monologue and ramble because already, like give

me the popcorn, I'm ready to go. You put a microphone in front of me and I start, you know, I mean, and then you have a situation like Catherine the Great who it's this very strange different dynamic where Catherine the Great is a German princess from a low born family um is sort of brought in to marry the heir to the Russian throne because they think she's sort of going to be easily controlled. Again, she has none of the entrenched political power that someone like Katherine

Bergan would have had. But over the course of her marriage to Peter, Katherine ingratiates herself to the Russian people, converts to Russian orthodoxy in a way that like the people fall in love with learns the Russian language. There's a story about her she she catches still very early on in her marriage and the store, and she's bedridden, and the story that sort of spreads that feeds into her legend is that she was up at night pacing on the cold floor studying Russian and that's why people

like fall in love with her. And her husband is such an ineffective, bad emperor in so many ways that six months into his reign, even though she wasn't Russian born, even though she was an heir to the throne, even though she really has no claim to the Russian throne in any legitimate way. We we might imagine through lineage, she rallies the the armies behind her, the people behind her, the church behind her, and overthrows her own husband. So she was ambitious. So it's sort of like there are

these Catherine Varragon. I don't know how ambitious she might have been. A Bolen is always proteted. Prichette is very ambitious, right, And I don't again, I don't know so much myth has been made about all of Henry's well Henry himself and all of his wives, And I don't know. I sort of love the idea of Amberleyn as like a you know, a schemer. I don't know how much it was the right place, right time, you know. I mean, it's she she had a very limited opportunity, right. It's

like her family is saying, like, do this thing. This is the one thing you're supposed to do. This is how to advance as a woman. I mean, in the hundred's, advancing as a woman was marrying, yeah, and then not getting be added. And if the king wants you, you're you're. You have fewer cards to play than than maybe people think. And I my anvioln hot take is I think she played her cards magnificently and if she had happened to

have a son, she would have been fine. And because she didn't, these things, yeah, these things, these things happen, but like it was an impossible situation, right, and then the patriarchy does that to us. So when was the first appointed royal spouse who was male? Oh gosh, I guess it depends on if we're going to count Empress Matilda. So there's are you watching the new Game of Thrones by chance? I'm not. I'm not okay. So for people

who are watching, how's the dragon? The character um Rania, like the young princess who was claiming queen, is sort of based on this figure named Empress Matilda, who, depending on who you ask, counts or doesn't count as a monarch of England. So she was the daughter of King Henry the First. His only legitimate son, William died uh in a ship disaster, a ship crashed against some rocks, and so her father said, my daughter Matilda is my heir.

Of course, then her father dies, and uh, A lot of people in eleven hundred England say, no, we do not. I know, we swore for fealty to her when your father is alive. But your father is not alive anymore, and so there becomes a civil war in England known as the Anarchy. And her nephew cousin nephew, Um, I'm gonna get this wrong, and so I hope no one angrily corrects me. A relative, either a cousin or nephew, Stephen is is sort of the the counterfaction who then

claims power. But Matilda, who was fighting in the Civil War for her right um to the throne, had her husband Jeffrey, who was focused on conquering Normandy, which was also considered part of the the English crowns power at that time, so that that's sort of an interesting husband fascinating. There's there are other few sort of interesting dynamics where a wife has technically higher claim at a given time, Like Mary, Queen of Scott's was married to a Prince

of France who then became the King of France. But at the time that they were married, she was the Queen of Scotland. Her mother was ruling in her stead and her her half brother was sort of ruling while she was in France, but she was the independent queen of a country married to the Dafa France uh and that had its own interesting political called dynamics because being but unfortunately, as Mary Queen of Scott's learned like her

marriage is only ever really diminished her power. She makes the terrible decision to marry this man named Lord Darnley, who she had been charmed by but was it was a terrible match. He dies in mysterious uh, an explosion, that was and then he was found strangled like there was a murder attempt because he was awful, and Mary, Queen of scott was sort of like, oh no, my husband died. That's so sad. I'm you know, I'll definitely look into what happened. But the people of Scotland at

the time see that and don't like that. That's her reaction. And then she marries, in her third marriage, the man who was implicated in her second husband's death, which the people of Scotland absolutely hate. Some historians say she didn't have a choice in that matter, that you know, he raped and kidnapped her. Some say that, you know, she

just made a terrible calculation. But either way, those were two matches that ultimately diminished her power, and someone like her cousin, Elizabeth the First of England, realized that she's already queen. Marrying a man is only gonna gonna compromise compromise her power, thank you exactly. And so is she the only example? She's the most obvious example of an unmarried female monarch. Is there other? Is there anyone else

who did that? In England? No, I'm sure around the world there are and I just off the top of my head, can't can't recall. Uh, it's definitely absolutely several African monarchs and queens, but in England, no queen. Elizabeth made the calculation of ruling as a virgin queen. But there's a benefit of that, right, which is that she doesn't have to submit to a man. But the cost of that is it's the end of the tutor dynasty

because she doesn't have airs. And at the end of the day, the purpose of a of a monarchy is to create your dynasty, have it keep going, create airs. And I think part of the problem also, especially in the fifteen hundreds, if we're talking about Elizabeth, the first childbirth is a is a very dangerous prospect. So it's that's it's very much a bodily risk, that's right. So to put the monarch through that kind of a trial from which what percentage of women didn't you know, emerge successfully?

You know? Sure, Yeah, I'm totally making that and I'm like that that sounds right. I don't know, it's very it's dangerous, right, You're putting the monarch in, that's right, a very vulnerable position, right. Um, In terms of the selection process, for lack of a better phrase, for these royal partners. You know, we know sort of in pop culture what the story is about, you know, the current royal family in England or the most recent ration. But was there like was it selected by the ruling monarch?

Was there a council? Was that the family? Was it all of the above? How did that work the family? In most cases? Because you are absolutely correct that these are not decisions very often made for love. These are strategic decisions. The role of marriage for a lot of you know, Western history from a certain you know, from at least as long as we have, like the English

monarchy recorded, it was to secure alliances. It was to secure political or religious alliances, to combine land dowries were important, and so yeah, love was sort of a something reserved for poor people, I suppose, right, like almost a luxury that the monarchy couldn't afford, right, Yeah, and I can't worry about that. It was very much understood, especially in France at the time. Royal mistress was an official position

with a salary and apartments that you lived in. It was right, So it was akin to I mean, it wasn't marriage obviously, because marriage was considered this very political, legal, religious institution. But it was almost a marriage of sorts because by appointing someone your royal mistress, they are they have an official position in your life. And so I think in France it was very much understood that your wife is to fulfill this certain role and your mistress

is to fulfill another role. And I actually think, now you've gotten me on my on my high horse. This is sort of a pet subject of mine. It was to Marie Antoinette's detriment that her husband never did take a mistress. Her husband, Louis the sixteenth, was sort of awkward. It took them seven years to consummate their marriage. He was not a very sexual person. I think sometimes people like to think, well, was he gay, and I think no. I think more likely he just was maybe closer to

a sexual He just wasn't very sexual. And Marie Antoinette, because he never had an official royal mistress to sort of differ court attention and gossip and the more frivolous aspects of courtly life. Marie Antoinette was in this unfortunate position of being forced to do both, where she was both the one that everyone looked to for fashion and style and gossip, but also at the same time she was expected to be, you know, the royal mother and the queen and and honor that position with with the

dignity they expected. There's a famous example of a portrait that was painted in three of Marie Antoinette in a simple Muslim gown. It's like a chemist style gown that was meant to evoke farm simplicity. She was doing seventeen eighties cottage corps, and that was very fashionable at the time for rich people to sort of play at simplicity, you know, the way I think people kind of do

on TikTok today, like baking bread. But at the time this portrait was so scandalous that it was pulled from display because the first response was that it was too sexual, that it looked like she was in her undergarments, that it was so casual, and that as a queen, she she you know, she was dishonoring the the position as queen, that the status, the title, the status that she held. She was sullying herself, sullying selling the position of queen.

And also you know, imagine she's trying to put the French silk merchants out of business by now wearing a silk gown, and so it was this sort of horrible thing where it backfired on every account where I think common people in France saw her as being condescending. You know, that's sort of like slumming it where they're like, what

are you doing? You know, the way that I think if we saw, you know, a celebrity today making rice and beans and being like, oh I love eating or whatever, you know, some like very casual food where you're like, what's like, that's not what you are. But then the rich people were like, you are selly in your position as queen, and so it fully backfired on every account. Where did this line up with her farm that she famously created behind Versailles, We are exactly there. You absolutely

nailed it. She had people also make fun of this a lot. She had this thing called the Queen's Hamlet, which was a working It was a model farm, but it was a working dairy farm where she went to escape because Versailles was like being in a fish bowl.

You are always watched, and every step from the order in which you get dressed in the morning to your meals is watched and perfectly choreographed, and so of course, like you imagine, like she just wanted like a a breather, like a minute, just to like be by herself and just hang out. And this was actually very common in the late seventeen hundreds of nobles building these sort of

faux farms to evoke a don't simplicity homey exactly. So yeah, she had a fake working farm, and she was sort of dress up like a um, you know, in more casual clothes, and and just spend time with her children, which was also considered a very weird thing she did. It was like, why are you spending all this time parenting your children? Don't you know you can pay people to parent your children for you. That echoes with Lady

Diana and her interests. Also, Um, you said something that I have been very curious about since I listened to your episode on The Mad King. King George the third. We're talking about how he, whatever his affliction was, was sort of at bay for many years, and he became ill later in his life, but there was a long period of time where he was sort of managing the royal business fairly well, and he had all these siblings

who were sort of crazy. I mean, they were all acting insane, and nobody was marrying who they were supposed to marry, and and I was just thinking about, like, you know, I don't hear much just as a lay person, and I don't know how big of an area of scholarship it is, but of these royals who you know, were with this incredibly strict and conventional idea of marriage and partnership in that way, like what what of the you know, the queer royals through history? Like do we

know anything about any of them? And you know, I'm sure their fate was complicated if it was recorded at all, But do you know anything about any of that? Yeah, we have um a few interesting stories. So there was King Edward the second of England and this is now in the late twelve hundreds, and there was a man. I mean because so much of it isn't recorded the way that I think modern sources would want it to be recorded. And I think these these things are complicated

because I don't think these the character characters. The people at the time wouldn't have called themselves gay or queer. That vocabulary didn't exist. And so I, as like an untrained historian, I'm always like waried to put these labels on people. But King Edward the Second of England, who was, you know, King of England. This is late twelve hundred's early thirt hundreds had a favorite, Pierce, Pierce Gaveston, who sort of had exclusive access to the king. It was

heavily implied this was a romantic relationship. I mean, I would argue that it absolutely is romantic, if not sexual, but medieval chroniclers, so even at the time people were writing that this relationship is sexual. Um. Christopher Marlowe, the playwright sort of a contemporary of Shakespeare, basically says as much in the play Edward the Second, and some modern historians I think disagree on the extent of the sexual relationship, but he was very much his favorite, and it's a

it's tragic story. I mean, basically, the other nobles don't like this favoritism, and they retaliate against him, and they retaliate against Pearce, and like, this is a time when even being king could only go so far at certain points, because again, marriage at this time is not about happiness. It's about securing this religious political alliance and having airs

and a lover of the same sex. And I think it was sort of a sometimes it don't ask, don't tell policy of certain monarchs, and sometimes it really was politically damaging. I mean, part of what led to Marie Antoinette's downfall was the incredible amount of political propaganda against her, which were cartoons of her engaged in sexual lesbian acts

with her closest ladies in waiting. And so I think it is a challenge of historians today to sort of tease out when these relationships were set told because obviously gay people existed, because people existed, um, But yeah, the sources are tricky, and I think because for so much of European history, Christianity was so deeply ingrained in Yeah, exactly, So queer relationships were both powerful tools of propaganda because accusing some of it someone of it was obviously incredibly damaging,

but also something that someone would have kept a secret. You also have that great episode on the person whose name I am not going to remember the French um, yes, yes, exactly, which is such a great story. It's so interesting to untangle it and and I won't go into the whole story,

but it is. Um. I like to think of a person who chose of her own free will to live as a woman and even though we wouldn't have had or they wouldn't have had the vocabulary to call themselves trans I think it's so interesting to remind people that know, for hundreds of years people made these decisions. Is there a time that you can peg it too? In terms of when, I don't remember when the sort of modern sensibility about what romantic love is and how it plays

into marriage. I can't remember when that sort of entered the society in the Western world anyway. But in the sense of royal marriages, I don't think they are any more meant to be about international alliances. At least again in Europe they still have that. Now their success right is just through the roofs. Getherway with that, and they're they're that all works. Yeah, but was there a moment

where it shifted. I think one of the key moment, at least in my understanding, is the relationship between Queen Victoria and Prince Albert. This was a situation where Victoria fell head over heels in love and she was devoted to Albert to a fault. I mean, she loved her husband so much that when he died, she spent the

rest of her life in mourning. I mean it's so funny because obviously the Victorian era so powerful, and we imagine her as such a large I mean she's tiny, she's like, you know, four ft ten, but a larger than life figure in in English history. And she was obsessed with her husband to a degree that I think, like nowadays people would be jealous of. I'm like, oh my god. She hated having children. She they had you know, ten children, and she absolutely hated having children. But she

just loved being intimate with her husband. And no one taught her about birth control. So you know, she was like, say, lovey, they were what you gotta do, You do what you gotta do. I mean, she had a this is a one a young woman who had a very very controlled childhood. When she was born, she was the basically air apparent eventually after her father, after her uncle died, she was she's the only legitimate granddaughter of King Charles the Third,

King Jesus christ Um, King George the Third. King Charles the Third is right now, he has a lot of whatever. She's the only legitimate granddaughter of King George. She is born and she's this precious thing, and so she's raised under this incredibly strict system called the Kensington system, with where her mother like basically doesn't let her be a person until she actually is literally Queen of England. And so by falling in love and marrying this man, it's

sort of her her act of rebellion and freedom. She sort of pushes her mother and her mother's adviser out of her orbit and focuses all of her attention on on Albert, and they have an incredibly by all accounts, happy marriage and life for the you know, for the years they have together. She empower him in an unusual way.

They had a partnership. Really, I mean, I guess the question is, what is a new It's unusual at all that it was in a late eighteen hundreds marriage where the woman had a more important job than the man. Absolutely absolutely, and probably also relatively rare for a marriage steeped in romantic love to be successful, because most people had nothing, and so most people had very hard life, and so even if they were in love with their spouse, it may not have played out so great, you know,

through all the years. But I'm of course contrasting it to the popular understanding or fantasy about Queen Elizabeth and Prince Philip's relationship where you know, from what I can gather in certainly what I imagine to be true that that it was tough for a man to be second

to his female spouse. And I don't know if there's any um, you know, if there was any agitating on Albert's part, if the if the adoration was enough for him, if it was just you know, I'm here for you because you're so wonderful to me, and together we will you know, found many museums have all these babies and have a great life. I think, you know, it's hard for me to get into these people's heads. So a

lot of this is guesswork. I think Victoria was so deferential to Albert that he felt okay, you know, and I think it was a little bit harder, weirdly for Philip, because again, this is like the nineteen fifties, right, This is like when the idea of masculinity is at it's real mad men peak. And here's a situation where you know,

under Victoria she was an empress. This is like, Okay, the monarchy is at the height of its actual power, whereas like Queen Elizabeth, like this is a symbolic role largely at this point, and so it's you know, maybe he had less of a inherent difference reference reverence, and so I think it might have been a little harder when they got into the argument they did have where he was like, wait, so my kids aren't going to have my name. She's like, no, are you? I mean

she's like she didn't say this. But if if it was me, I would have been like, are you effing kidding me? They're going to have like my last name, that's the Queen Victoria's last name. They're kind of your made up German last name. Like, what are you talking about? Well, I think that would have gone very well. If you would be like that, I would have been great to be married time. I would have been like are you

are you absolutely kidding me? And I have to think that the era of um sort of media awareness that they existed in would have made it much more difficult to because he's getting you know, feedback from everyone about their relationship rather than just managing it privately. Just just a lot harder, right, He's hearing every comment of someone saying like, oh, can you believe this guy walking one

step behind his wife? We're also queen Victoria was so deferential to her husband, where even though she was the queen, like I mean some she's she's using a lot of eighteen hundreds language and talking about her She like worships and obeys her husband, And so I feel like he would have been okay with that. You know, she covered it because this is again she she is so obsequious and deferential to him that it would have been hard for him to get mad. Where it's like Queen Elizabeth.

This is a sort of trickier situation, just as the monarchy is that this is a weird like modernizing crux like feminism and masculinity, and the patriarchy is changing in the twentieth century. I feel like we can't not talk about Wallis Simpson just a little team of good and I think most people probably know exactly who Wallis Simpson is, but just in case they missed it, came to do

a quick overview of that. Sure um, King George five had two sons, and the oldest son obviously is in line to inherit the throne and he becomes King Edward the eighth, but he falls in love with a divorced American actress named Wallace Simpson, and as the head of the Church of England, it's against church laws to marry a divorce if their spouse is still alive. She's a divorcee with a living spouse. That's big of me, like,

you can't do that. And also for a bunch of other reasons, like he fundamentally was ill suited to being king, and he was a Nazi sympathizer, which we won't go into because I'll just get mad. But he abdicates the throne in favor of his younger brother, who becomes George the six who is Queen Elizabeth the Seconds father, and so that's why we have the line we have now.

But Wallace Simpson was this uh yeah, divorced American woman who scandalized the royal family by falling in love with uh with David, but who took the regular name King Edward the Eighth, and uh yeah, he abdicated the throne and they they instead of being King and Queen, they

went with the Duke and Duchess of Windsor. She never got her royal highness, which is sort of like an honorary title, because that was sort of them sticking it to her, and they lived sort of the rest of their lives in France, visited, you know, chumming it up with Hitler, thinking well, maybe if this Hitler chap wants to put us back on the throne, that would be fun, wouldn't it. Oh. I didn't realize there was that element

to that relationship. It was sealed until very recently. This is a sort of thing that the royal family has not hize broadcast, but there are yeah, photographs, uh, and when you have a photograph smiling next to Hitler, it's not a good look. But no, that especially during the Second World War obviously when Germany was the enemy, the British Royal family tried very hard to make sure that it was suppressed that that m Wallace and and David were cozying up or had been cozying with with the Amon's.

But yeah, they they sort of had this I think what they characterized as this love story that he was willing to give up the throne for her, but I think for a lot of other reasons he was ill suited to being king, and I'm I'm glad he wasn't. Yeah, no kidding, is is there another example of that happening that you know of of someone falling in love and giving up there seat of power. Well, if we're also

talking also about um, queer possibly queer monarchs. There was a Queen of Sweden named Queen Christina who uh some people argue was lesbian or or would have been. She she favored men's dress. Uh, she was, you know, Queen of Sweden, but but resigned for whether it was religious reasons. She refused to marry, which was its own scandal, then converted to Catholicism secretly. And oh, I think she she's buried in the Vatican and is either the only woman buried in the Vatican or one of only a few

women buried in the Vatican. But she's someone who gave up her throne not for a man, but for a lack of man. I just wanted to add that in the realm of people who are significantly influential, I have to say that your podcast. Without it, I don't know that I would have ever thought to do what I'm doing. Not that that's any great shakes for the world, but but um, but I'm grateful. I'm so grateful that you do what you do. And um, I feel you're a trailblazer.

And I personally have benefited from that, so thank you. Oh my gosh, that is the truly, the genuinely kindest thing anyone has said. I feel very lucky that people let me rant into a microphone about historical figures I find interesting and I am. I love when when that exists more in the world. So I'm very excited for what you're doing. Well. Thank you so much. Um. Do you have anything that you want to be working on

a couple of books? I don't know if you have anything that you want to plug or promote or send us to, Oh my gosh, that would be great. I have a new book coming out in February called Immortality, a Love Story. And if you're interested in historical royals, I have a few cameos. I have Princess Charlotte of Wales appears, Lord Byron appears, a few other characters I've talked about on my podcast. But it's available for preorder. No, that book sounds amazing. UM. Too late for this Christmas,

but definitely in time for Valentine's Day. Absolutely, thank you so much. This is such a pleasure. Thank you so much for listening, and thanks again to Dana for joining us. If you haven't already, please check out her podcast, Noble Blood wherever you get your podcasts. I promise you won't be disappointed. We'll continue to release bonus episodes while we work on season two, so be sure to hit the subscribe button, and as always, we welcome any and all

suggestions for upcoming episodes. You can email us at significant pod at gmail dot com