Exploring the Cutting Edge of Complexity, Adaptive Strategy and Innovation With You: A Gratitude Episode with Mark McGrath and Ponch Rivera | Ep 26

to us and meant a lot to the people that we've engaged with . Now we could say they all do , because that's true . We really have had tremendous engagement with phenomenal guests .

Some of them are gonna be repeat guests in the near future And some of these conversations have been absolutely amazing And the intent that we had was to have these as reference points so that you can understand where we're coming from when we're talking about these types of ideas .

And there's a lot of value , with a lot of the lessons that we're learning from the various individuals that we're speaking with . What would you add to that punch ?

I'm like that's impossible . But when we are not recording or producing these , there's plenty of conversations that are happening behind the scenes . So the learning curve is absolutely amazing And we just wanna thank not just our listeners but our guests that we've had on the show and the relationships that we're building .

And this is what makes being part of this team so valuable is that network , and we want more people to join in the conversation , listen in , become part of that network . You know , if you wanna be on the show , we're gonna get to you .

We're just we've got a lot of content to get through And right at the moment there's no like like clear purpose on what comes out next . Right , we're just pushing things out that we think people wanna hear . We may be wrong on that , but at the same time , there's so much to be looked at or looked upon when we talk about the Oodleoo .

So backward , you , mark .

So , and we're always happy to do that if there's a pertinent topic that someone wants to speak about , whether it's void or complexity , thinking , distributed leadership , team science , we gotta go .

It's amazing the podcast that we get to go on and talk about the things we're learning , not just here , but we've learned about in the past .

I'm constantly learning new ideas and applications . So it never stops . There's there's no way out . There's no way out of of reorienting . So well , let's just do a quick review on some of the ones that We hear a lot about . We get we get a lot of contact on . We get a lot of DMs . We've got a lot of continued downloads .

What are some of the ones that jump off the page to you punch that we should direct people to ?

So that would be dr McKabe , dr Hippolito , james Gimmie , and and then bring that back to Chet Richards , because Chet was on to a lot of this before And we had a nice conversation about that .

So what we're doing is we're moving away from the warfare aspect of what everybody associates John Boyd do the loop with , to The neuroscience , the biology , the quantum physics , the complex adaptive systems theory , cybernetics aspect of it . And I think that's the heart of what John Boyd's it'll loop is really about .

And and you know , you and I have been trying to get to Mary Ellen , mary Ellen Boyd on , and Mary , if you're listening to this , please come on and tell us What your dad was trying to do with the ootaloop , because I think you have a deep understanding of this as well .

But it'd be great to have that connection about what what you know Boyd wasn't just talking about Let's fly an F86 against a mid 15 or mid 17 ? and let me tell you about what was going on back in the 1950s .

He was looking , you know , through the 80s and 90s as to What the scientific zeitgeist was at the time , and that really leads to where we are today with a lot of new concepts , such as the , the construct a law right . So we have the construct a law , which is developed by professor Asian Bay John . That was done about this right .

A little little after the time that John Boyd died . Asian Bay John's been on the show talking about that , which is just an extension , if you will , on the second law of thermodynamics , the concept of flow and things like that fantastic physics viewpoint of Be in no way out or there's no way out of . You know , there's this uncertainty in the world .

We have to learn physics from his standpoint , of course , the concept of flow and then the connection to what we're learning about active inference , free energy principle , which is built upon a lot of lessons that John Boyd was looking at , which includes cybernetics ,

the uncertainty principle , google's proof , and then , of course , the second law of thermodynamics as well . So you start adding all these things up . John Boyd was way , way , way More advanced than most people give him credit for , and I think that's what our show is showing folks right now .

different backgrounds . Everybody knows punch , the Navy aviator . I was a Marine officer . My background is a historian , undergrad and economist master . So , like I have a more of a theoretical , philosophical , historical background and I would say that one of the things is kind of tagging on what you just said .

We've had chet Richards , who was a friend and collaborator of Boyd , and we've had a couple of other Quote unquote military folks not to say quote unquote because they're actual military folks right , we've had general tank Leonard . We've had John Robb who's an Air Force veteran .

We've had the great Don Vandergriff right , who is the The big advocate for mission Fred Leland Marine . We've had Fred Leland the Marine and the point of it is Is that when Aaron Aaron McClain we were on , we had Aaron McClain on another Marine .

I hope that everybody understands when we do have , because oftentimes John Boyd is just the warfare guy or the patterns of conflict guy or military guy . I think when people listen to those episodes and I have gotten this feedback we're extracting the principles out of how to deal with complexity in the military is .

It was a tremendous school for both of us to learn how to do that in our own or in respective ways .

And I think that when we have tank Leonard on , general tank Leonard , and we have John Robb on and we have Aaron McClain and we're working and , by the way , we also had Chris Butler that never spent one day in the military and talks about why he studies some of these things , because it's all about the extraction of principles and then applying those principles

to our own Environments , our own organizations . And my thesis has always been you don't have to have spent one day in the military to learn and apply these . And we've also had a lot of guests that Demonstrate that hunter Hastings , we talked about entrepreneurial theory . We had Viv Reed talk about sense making . I mean , that was a , i got a .

I don't know about you punch . I got a ton of feedback on our interaction with them and that one was a lot of fun because We're literally on opposite sides of the earth , coordinating times with Australia , so . But then you've brought on some .

You've brought on Gary Klein , and Gary Klein has done a phenomenal job of bridging all worlds , not just military , and maybe you know Dan low . Dan low is a great example .

But also in the operating room , how do you increase performance , how do you improve your teams For patients , for not only patient safety but for overall well being in an organization ? so many , many connections .

One of the connections that I didn't mention that that is with the Shingo prize winning author , charlie Proffman , and that is going to look back at what was going on in 1940s , 1950s in Japan and making a connection to Between the Toyota production system , lane and , of course , john Boyd's little , which we know John Boyd looked at quite heavily , look back at TPS

, look back at Shingo and oh no , quite a bit and incorporate a lot of those ideas . Now what I did learn from that episode and what we're learning from other episodes is the overlap between Human centric thinking , human center design , focusing on people first .

The Toyota production system clearly does that , but it makes a connection that overlaps with a lot of things we're learning from neuroscience as well . So the Lane community . I think they need to embrace more of the communication The complex the side of the house with John Boyd was trying to do .

You know he looked at PDCA , looked at Kaiser and he looked at combine . Look at all these amazing things . He looked at flow and then He went ahead and said , hey , this is pretty cool and all . But there's another aspect here that you need to look at and that's how we ended up with The loop in the nineties growing toward it is today .

You know that bottom line is John Boyd didn't spend 40 years of his life looking at All these different disciplines and coming up with a circle right or just a single linear loop . I mean that that'd be ridiculous to do that . I see a lot of Research is doing that today . When they draw schematics they just draw loops and stuff . John Boyd didn't do that .

One area that I do want to get into down the road and maybe this is as we look back at some of the ideas we covered is John Boyd's work on EM theory , which is going to require some physicists and some engineers and people with math backgrounds to really help us out through that . But , Boyd brought us the F16 , the F18 , and really brought .

You know , people were like John Boyd's not a mathematician , he doesn't know anything . I'm like go get off your French Wikipedia page right now , because we've had some of those folks right .

You know , dm us whatever you need to do , and we'll help find a guest that understands it a little bit more than we do . We cannot be experts in everything , by the way . We there's no way , and we're not experts , by the way .

And then , on the other hand , we have Digit Murphy , who's been building high-performing ice hockey teams for decades , and how she uses flow and resilience

in Boyd's theories and changing energy states on the ice and that kind of a thing . So there's a lot of . I guess that's the other aspect of this .

You know we said it before , we said it again the multidisciplinary nature of who we're bringing in , whether it's Jim Rutt to talk about complexity , whether it's your shipmate Yank Cummings , you know , talking about commanding the USS , jerald R Ford .

We also found out we're from the same town in Colorado , so you know it was always something that was wild Yeah yeah .

He's an advisor to our company , so we were honored to have him as the first guest , and we're also honored to have him as a consistently downloaded episode .

Anybody that's been a regular listener has certainly detected , from episode one to 25 , you know we've , we've , we've certainly been ringing out , we've , we've been making refinements and adjustments to improve the quality of what we're delivering . We're going to see more of that going forward . We've got a lot more excitement .

You know we're only at , you know , functionally , half the year . We've got a lot more to come . We're going to put some out this week that I think they're going to blow people away . What else ? how else we ? we do want to close this punch . What else can we say ?

We'll use some work on Facebook as well , but we're going to make this more inclusive , And the reason we want to do that is we're not too white guys talking about bullshit . Right First off , we're not white and this is definitely bullshit .

If you have any recommendations that goes to our audience or just anything we can do better , let us know and we'll adjust .

Or you could go to no way out dot bus sproutcom and you can have access to all the podcasts and platforms and you can even listen to it . And then the last thing , which is a great effort by Paunch and part of the team , is the YouTube channel .

So on aglx , our YouTube channel , we now have not all of the episodes up on video , but many of them , and we'll gradually get more and more out . So a lot of people like to watch the videos . So there's that too .

You know , just just over a podcast , all right , anything else All right , that's .