Hello, Welcome to the Nowey Jose podcast. Today I'm joined by Rat. We're digging a little bit deeper into Marsianism. I know we had Tiller on here last time, one of the patrons, but had someone hit me up and said, hey, they wanted to talk a little bit more about Martianism. They made a compelling case for it, and so I'm bringing them on now. But I look forward to seeing you guys in the show. Make sure subscribe hit that bell for and so will you get notifications when a
new show drops or when I'm streaming. But we'll see you in the show.
Story. I'm falling, nasty, don't leave, I'm starving at jos shrinking, storm back, shore up mother.
Why listen say that on me? To fare the word back? Gave me see dear the sass. Oh oh.
Oh, Hello, Welcome to the show.
Rat.
Pleasure to have you with us. You want to take a moment to introduce yourself to my audience. Is the first time I've had the pleasure of talking with you, and I'm assuming for much of my audience it's probably the first time I get to know you as well.
So if you who you know who you are or what you're about and kind of the sort of project you're working on, if anything, and the like, and I know, maybe even a little bit about kind of what you're interested and interest in the topic is today, maybe where you're coming from. As I said in the last episode, I don't want to lead anyone on. I know the intro might be a little bit the implication. There might be some implications, but just not to feel like I'm
trying to present myself with anything I'm not. I am not particularly religious. I'm more interested in the historical aspect and maybe the symbolic aspect of a lot of this sort of stuff and how it dies into i know, the sort of a creepy stuff at the tippy top, or just maybe how we can learn to under incorporate it into understand our world.
But RAT, pleasure to have you on the yours.
Pleasure to be on. Thank you so much for having me on. Jose, Yeah, I'm Rat. At season of the rat On X and I host a show with subliminal messenger over on Rumble called Disagree to Agree. Mostly, I'm interested in biblical scholarship. I would say I am a proto, not proto, but sort of on the gnostic edge of things. I look into the history of the second and third century, mostly in terms of the Christianities that we're around there. I look into the history of those. I try and
focus mostly on that. I do also focus on philosophy. Occasionally I dabble my toes in conspiracy theories and they're cool, they're cool. But I'm much more interested in like the
macro effect that these things have. Like recently, me and subliminal have gotten into this, uh, this cult of cult of Airess, this this Discordian group that uh that introduced chaos essentially to a lot of a lot of the people around, and it's very involved in like the LSD LSD culture of the sixties and the seventies and and
all that. So, you know, if you come over to our show disagree to agree on Rumble, you'll find a lot of various things, usually usually talking about cults and me particularly, I'll talk about scripture, and I'll talk about the history behind certain behind the Bible and everything that's kind of happened there. It's it's it's a big mess, and I love sorting through it.
It's funny you mentioned Discordianism, and let's saybe I misunderstood you. I'm pretty sure if I recalled correctly, I can't remember that guy's name, the guy who created it, or one of the two people who created it. I think he had some odd connections to uh, to Lee Harvey Oswald. So it's a weird world.
You can do that sort of stuff.
Yeah, yeah, he wrote the biography.
He wrote the biography of Lee Harvey Oswald before the actual shooting.
Yes, basically, I mean like it's a little bit of a simplification, but yeah, it's basically some guy and yeah, you have to check it out, but it's it's basically, yes, there's plausible deniability there, but yes, it's a fictionalized account of something very very similar. But many such cases, it's like, damn near every deep event there literally is like a stand in for that exact whatever. That is so creepy. But anyways, Uh, you said you kind of look at
this from a biblical scholar type of perspective. I mean you said you're a little on the gnostic side of things, So I guess we talked a little bit this last episode. Are you Is it meaningful difference to you when you're saying gnostic or you can sing yourself kind of like a Marsianist or whatever or what what do you really I don't know where are you coming at from this.
I don't consider myself a mars whatsoever, mostly because there right now that currently there are two factions of two factions of Marcianite Marsianism, which is the Marcian Night brand of Christianity or it is just the Essentially, it's the Marcianite Canon which was released in the second century, and then you know the the the scripture that like the the practices of the church that evolved from that scripture and that and that family of Christianity, so that that
that's more of a religious ontaking, and I'm not really interested in that. I'm more interested in the historical impact that marcian had. I'm more gnostic, and I don't I'm not really afraid of that word as I used to be, because I just am willing to look at things a little bit more deeply. I'm willing to look at the Bible symbolically, you know, I'm willing to look at what is this capital t truth? And that's honestly what I'm
searching for. And I think that's what a lot of people are searching for, even if they don't really know what word to put it to it.
Okay, all right, so but you do gnser yourself gnostic. I know there's like different forms, so you're meaning in the religious sense. So I'm just trying to get a beat on where you're coming at from this, because I know there's kind of an odd distinction between Martianism and I know they both reject the Old Testament.
You know, well, they're not rejected. They believe that it like exists.
There might be different conceptions within it, different you know whatever, but they do believe the Old Testament God exists, but that he's not necessarily the good God, essentially, that he might be some sort of evil something or other. I know, the cosmology gets a little bit more complicated with you know, gnostic, but it's kind of a broad open term. It's almost a catch all. So I don't know, you probably could do a whole episode and trying to hammer down on
what it is exactly you believe. But I guess they're just trying to establish your connection to Martianism. But you're kind of coming from a similar obviously, I would say many gnostics would probably attribute the Marsianism as some sort of I don't know, origin story of their belief system. I would I would assume in a certain sense, and that this is where the it derived from in many ways.
Maybe correct me if I'm wrong, but that would be my assumption as a non Gnostic that just like this is Martianism came out that early, you know, kind of was this a little bit I guess you could say, obviously depends on who you believe, whether it's the Christians of today that that was the rift or if that's the real thing. But I would assume many Gnostics you would would look at that as like some sort of early formation of their belief system.
Maybe I'm wrong, so it's a little bit more complicated
than that. I wish I could say we could all point it back to Marcian, But Marcian released his canon and around the only date that could be securely attached to Marcian is the year one forty AD, and that's roughly around the time that his canon was published and released and sent out and about gnosticism, especially like the proto Gnostics of the of the end of the first century, like the base Ladies Valentinia, Valentinius and especially the big famous one who I don't even know I who's a
real person. But this guy named Simon Magus, who was noted in the Book of Acts that's in the Biblical in the canonical Bible, this Simon Magus, this Simon of Samaria person might have been a stand in for Like all future heresies, the keep in mind that the Book of Acts was written after Marcians Canon was was printed out. Now,
scholars will disagree on this dating. Scholars disagree on the dating of all the books in the Bible, of course, but the Book of Acts, I am I'm fairly confident in saying it was written after Marcians Canon was published and widely released. And that alt with the edits to the Book of Luke, which was the same source material that Marcian got his Gospel from, the Gnostics of that time were much more varied, and it generally came from the the.
Mixing of.
Christianity, of the Jewish Christianity that Jesus kind of represents and the Twelve Apostles kind of represent with Alexandrian philosophies, which Alexandria was a heavily Greek influenced school, a city of schools essentially that was in Egypt. So it was like the mixed bag of Greek, Egyptian and Jewish philosophies that all came about in very very many different disparate forms that we would call Gnostics. And I mean, you can't point to two Gnostics in the second entry and
find anything in common between the two. You you you know, the Valentinians versus the Basiladians versus the uh Sethians versus the Proto Mannicheans, all of them. They were the number of schools of Gnostic thought at the time, probably very greatly, much greater than the number of denominations there are today. And and certainly there's much more diversity of thought in
the Gnostic traditions in those Gnostic traditions. Like you you know, you you go to two different, two different churches today, and you're they're going to essentially believe the same thing. It's like acceptably different. You know, Like someone might think baptism is best done when you're a kid, and some might think, well, baptisms should be done as an adult, but really they're all they're all agreeing that baptism should
be done. While you look at the Gnostics of the second century, and it's like some of them are reject Jesus outright as a person, don't They don't think Jesus
was real, you know. Or you look at some of the Gnostics from the second century and they'll they'll say that salvation only comes from realizing you yourself are Jesus, you know, or or you know the you get them the famous cosmology that you would find in books like the Pistis Sophia or the or the Secret Book of John, where you have this aroma uh, the monad who is God above all, when you have these emanations, and then this the final emanation being this Sophia, this personification of wisdom,
who is a woman, and she tries to create on her own because she wishes to know more of God, and so she accidentally creates this this demi, this thing that we know as the Demi. Urgent calls it yaal de Beath, and she she's so frightened by it, she throws it out into the outer abyss, so that it could never know God, and it could never know the emanations, the divinity that is beyond it, and so it's left out in the abyss. This is ye how to both thing,
and it thinks it's the only thing around. So it starts doing its own emanations, which are these angels and demons that you see in the Old Testament, and then it starts creating, and it creates the physical world. That's that's I mean, that's the varieties of Gnostic thought that we have in the second century. And then Marsian comes on actually right now, mid mid point of the second century, so it's actually after Gnostics have kind of set up
their own churches. You know, what we call is gnostics really if you ask to basilady and what they refer to themselves as they'd call themselves a Christian all.
Right, I guess maybe we should hone it a little bit.
Even What is the distinction between naism and Marcianism generally narcissism. It seems like from my understanding, I know today it's kind of started to solidify in modern days of kind of the understanding of what it is. But from my understanding, it's kind kind of nosis means to know, So it is it's a the idea is to things your knowledge
being revealed. You know, this is minder seeing a lot of people make illusions to the versus like some mystery schools are born this sort of stuff, other weird sort of thing. So I don't know what is really the tie that binds between all these different gnastic groups, but it seems like perhaps uh, Martianism is maybe a little bit more doesn't go into the NOSS necessarily, uh kind of keeps the U, I guess, finds a way to kind of go that guy is a bad guy.
But we're not doing this through some sort of revelation.
This is through you know, something else, and you kind of are able to kind of not completely throw the baby out with the bath water without whereas nosis kind of is just like, I mean, we're being revealed out here, baby, like you know, like I don't know you you kind of lay it out for me because it is kind of a think an odd thing for people to try
to wrap their heads around. And I think then, especially if you're into the conspiracy world with an some of the symboliss, some symbolism that pops up so and the and I guess like let's be real like oh to know and like you know, knowledge being revealed like this all sounds like spook language to me. So it is like and now I'm sure there's you know, there's both
sides of this. Maybe there's a positive side. I'm sure there was spooky stuff that was born out of the Gnostics that kind of very much in line with that sort of stuff. But I guess what we're kind of driving at is like that, maybe a little bit more clarification with the key difference is maybe what's the tie that binds Nacissism, what differentiates it from Marcianism?
YadA, YadA.
Sure, I think the the best way to.
Bind together the Gnostics of the Gnostics of Antiquity is just to understand that they're they're a heterodox theology, Heterodox meaning different than what is established Orthodox, and what is established Orthodox wasn't really established until the fourth century.
The thing that like.
Ties the Gnostics to it is really just different writings. So to understand, so I could paint a picture.
Jesus died.
Around eight thirty Common Era thirty whatever you want to refer to it as. Then you have a bunch of apostles running around. Some claim seventy, some claim twelve, some claim five hundred. You know, it really doesn't matter the number of apostles or disciples that are running around spreading the gospel.
But just know that it is getting around.
They're all being spread mostly to the people in Jerusalem, which is where Jesus did most of his ministry work around that area. And so when these things are spreading out, and we have this this figure named Paul, who very specifically went out to gentiles, who are these non Jewish communities to spread the gospel. Because Paul was like that Jesus, Jesus's Gospel is not for Jews only, but it's for everyone,
you know. So Paul started writing these letters, he went out and did missionary work and went around to these different places. So we have a whole bunch of different startup traditions, and essentially all of Christianity at the time was a bunch of disparate secret societies. Like like when when people met together for church, they were meeting and people they were meeting in backyards. They weren't meeting at large buildings that we have today. They're there, they're meeting
in secret, they're they're sharing ideas. And it was an oral tradition. It wasn't really anything written in the first century. There was no gospels written there, like like the the the common belief is that the Book of Mark was written maybe in seventy a d Like that's like the earliest people are willing to give it.
I'm not really that. I don't think it was that early.
I think it was probably into the second century, probably around one to ten once. But that being said, like there were no writings, it was all an oral tradition. Everything was spreading around, you know, in a very very localized fashion. So these different groups started coming up with different ideas and if you as you can probably assume, like I'm going to bring to I'm going to bring to this religion my background, my cultural background. A lot of them were Jewish, but a lot of them weren't.
A lot of them were come from Greek schools of philosophy, a lot of them were Hellenists, a lot of them were Pagans, you know, they were adapting Christianity into their pagan ideas. And so you get a bunch of different, very very different churches popping up, very different types of Christianities. And so the only thing that really separates the no that binds them together is the fact that the Jewish Christians really won. They won in the second century, they
won in the third century. They won in the fourth century. Marcians probably in the third century, but is in the second century he was still building speed. But in the third century he was probably the only real competitor to true Jewish Christianity, which is a pro Orthodox church, which is what we have today, the Orthodox idea, which which which marries the Old Testament with the New Testament and
marries Jewish traditions with Christianity. Marsianism was really the only counter to that, which was this idea that Christianity can stand on its own. It doesn't need Old Testament, doesn't need Jewish tradition, doesn't doesn't care where you're from. All the thing is this is this is Christianity.
That that's it.
In fact, Christianity. The term Christianity could probably be pointed back to Marcian. They weren't really using that term until Marcian made it kind of famous.
Okay, So Marcian was like the last holdout, so he the it.
Obviously, it sounds like there is a distinct in a sense difference between the Gnostic traditions and Marsianism, But so far as the Gnostic or the some semblance of the Gnostic representatives, it seems that Marsians are the last holdout, so they kind of get a little bit of a
knucks for that. But I guess we're here to talk about Marsianism and kind of we're kind of already a little bit leaning into this, creating this conception of looking at this as the Judaic Christians and the and the Gentile Christians and how these these factions clash and coalesce. And I think that very much is the story of what we're talking about here about Nacissism and Marsianism, which
is kind of the focal point here. But I guess if you want to just kind of wherever you want to start with this, you can kind of take the the history, the founding, YadA, YadA. I mean, the hell you could probably go even before that, because I mean there might even be some interesting thoughts to be had on the idea of you know, this was a Jewish religion before and now this with the inclusion of Jesus, this became a unifying like.
We're bringing the goy into this now.
So yeah, yeah, So.
For the most part, Jesus came to Jerusalem and he spoke to Jews, and well, I mean, he was born in Bethlehem or wherever he was born, I don't really know, but he's his missionary. His work was done in Jerusalem. So most of the people who were following Jesus were naturally Jews. Even Paul, who was the one who spread Christianity to Gentiles, was a Jew. But if if we
want to go, we want to look at Marcy. And Marcia was born probably around the last decade of the first century, and he was he was from Pontus, and if you don't know where that is, that's the northern part of Turkey of modern day Turkey. He he's he's called Marcian of Sinope, and Sinope is the like the topmost little part of Turkey that sticks outs out into the Black Sea. And Marcian was a wealthy man. He was a ship owner, a ship runner. He had a
shipping company. And during that time, Rome needed you needed a lot of ships, especially because they were going to war with the Jews. I mean that there was the the Rebellion in seventy eighty, the Jewish Roman War that ended up with the trampling of Jerusalem, the destruction of the Temple and all that. And then there was another revolt in the in the early parts of the one hundreds, and then the Barcopa Rebellion which happened around that time as well.
So Marcian was not was not struggling.
He was doing very well monetary wise. And to add add matters to this, the area of Pontis that and as well as Galicia and Lysonia, the this Eastern Asia part that it was well removed from Jerusalem, it was well removed from the center of Rome. There were a lot of Greek speaking Jews there. But essentially it was like after these rebellions, it became sort of like it became a bad idea to to to be a Jew, right, I mean, it's like being a Muslim after the nine
to eleven attacks, I mean just uncomfortable. So keeping that in mind, Marcian had gotten a hold of presumably he'd gotten a hold of some letters from Paul and decided
and converted to Christianity. And it was around one point forty when he actually moved to Rome, and his idea of Christianity had been formulating in Pontus, separated from Jerusalem, and when he moved into Rome proper, he ran into a lot of Jewish Christians and They had a very different theology than him, a theology that is based on the Jamesian idea or the jack and idea, where there's
this upholding of Jewish traditional laws and also circumcision. Marcian, Paul, they all really like to talk about circumcision because it was a horrible thing, and they tried to get people stop doing that. They tried to get people stop following the Jewish law because it leads to that and also leads to a whole bunch of other things, but we won't get into that. So he moved to Rome, he talked, he gave a whole bunch of money to the church.
He donated a whole bunch of money to the church in Rome, and he stayed there for about five years. And this has assumed the time that he collected a bunch of the letters and kind of got his theology together and kind of came up with this idea of a new Testament, something that could clearly delineate Christianity from Jewish Judaism. And so he got this, and then he presented his ideas to the church in Rome, and they decided that he was a bad guy, really bad guy.
They hated him. He's like the first person to ever really be excommunicated from the Christian Church. And they excommunicated him so hard they gave him his money back, and mind you, this was a gigantic donation. So they gave him all his money back, kicked him out, and uh, Marsion didn't stop there. He uh, he decided he's gonna
keep going around and building up his own churches. Since he runs a ship company, shipping company, he can do that very efficiently, very effectively, much better than the Jews in Rome. And so he was going around, uh, starting churches and bringing this uh this direct appalling Christianity to these churches, and uh it it got really built really fast. It was the biggest contender to proto Orthodox churches in the third century. At some points it might have been
even bigger than pro Orthodox Church. And that's where Marcianism kind of had its legs. And then the fourth century it kind of got all smashed away because Theodysseus and uh, what's what's his name, Augustine converted to Christianity, like Orthodox Christianity, and they figured out with the Nicene creed and the meeting and the nice meeting and Nicene they figured out how to uh put a put a stop to all these other different types of Christianity.
Telling me the Jews won again by appealing to state power. Is that what you're telling me?
That's what That's what I'm hearing, Uh history, Yeah, that is a although it is like I guess Christianity, but if you look at it from a depends on how you look at it, I guess.
Now.
I did think one question that's come to mind with this Martianism and kind of including an Oscicism into this and kind of you even you mentioned how the obviously some of these and and even with Christianity, you know, the just normal Christianity, there was a lot of there was this you know, religious of other not religious as Jewish or Gentile divide, and that was also present in I assume things like Marsianism, and also in Nacissism, like you were mentioning before about a lot of these people
came from Jewish traditions as well. So I'm just kind of curious on like, what are your thoughts on that dynamic where it's like, I don't know, especially maybe the world there's so many different splinter ideations where it is obviously not necessarily being Jewish would make it subter fute or change its perspective, but it would make it more amenable to the Old Testament version. Or maybe I don't know,
maybe I'm reaching here, but I'm kind of curious. Is there some sort of interesting dynamic there, maybe almost subversive in a certain sense to the ultimate goal? Like, what are your thoughts on that dynamic I'm kind of pointing to.
Okay, So, yeah, So Jesus brought to himself to Jerusalem, and the Jews, kind of the converts, the Jewish converts, picked up on it, and they they they really wanted to implement their their own traditions to Christianity, so they found a way to do it, and they wrote books that made it easier to do so, made Jesus say things like, uh, not a tittle of the law will pass away, and all this, all that stuff, all things that are unverifiable, right that these things that written in
the canonical Bible, they're unverifiable things that Jesus said. That that also being said, imagine bringing to now Alexandria, which is the home of Gnosticism, also the home of Alexandrian philosophies,
Greek philosophy, Egyptian philosophy. Now, imagine bringing the Old Testament to Alexandria in Egypt, where there there's a huge story at in the Torah about how the God of the Jews sent whole bunch of plagues into Egypt and killed the whole bunch of kids in Egypt and just demolished Egypt as as they knew it back then, just to take these people out of Egypt. And so these Alexandria's, these Egyptians read that and were like, oh, this just kind of shit.
This is a piece of shit, This is kind of fucked up. They're like, wait, wait, wait, wait, we have a deity.
We have a deity and his color is red, which happens to be the color that you guys turned the sea, you guys turned the sea red. We have a deity whose color is red, and he also does plagues and kills firstborns and all that stuff.
And his name is Seth.
His name is set or Seth, you know. And so this idea of uh Satan actually comes from set I mean, that's that's the name. And so Alexandrian, Alexandrian Egyptians read that and we're like, well, yeah, you guys got a
little bit messed up. But Jesus is cool. And there Jesus is even talking about how no one knew the Father before him, like no one knew of God, not even those in the past, not even the prophets, and you know, so they're like, well, Jesus is talking about some greater truth than than Judaism, then obviously there's a greater truth than Judaism. And so they married Jesus' ideas into Alexandrian philosophies. You get Sethianism, you know, Greek philosophies, you get Basiladianism or Valentinianism.
So you get a whole bunch of these.
Different philosophies that come about because they all realize that the Jewice God kind of sucks. And you know, for for the Christians in your audience, I mean, you really don't need to go much further than the Bible to really lies that in the case you really doesn't.
Wasn't one of Joshua's crusades.
I believe they literally I'm sure there'll be some Christian upset in the in the comments, but uh, I'm pretty sure they literally killed everybody and then God told them to keep the animals and essentially any of the clean women,
the women that are pure or whatever. And if you kind of look get into the weeds of what that means is that means they literally would have had to go women by women checker hymen, because that was how they the the understanding of that time was and if it was not, if it was broken, if it was not.
Or if it was broken, they would murder her.
So this is the sort of this is the sort of and this many times, I mean joshuaent on multiple crusades. I know we some people today go oh their nephlom or come up with some crazy reason to be like how it was okay, but like, I don't know. That sounds kind of like rampant mass slaughter to me. But who am I I'm not God.
Right right right?
I know, because God is. Because God is sovereign, you know, he's allowed to tell you to commit genocide. It's fine if he says it like Saul was told to commit cenocide. He was told to kill every man, woman and child, all the beasts of the beasts of the field and all the just wipe everything clean. Right, Saul didn't do that, And uh, you know it's Saul is a bad guy because he didn't do that. So that's what the Old
Testament tells you. And of course, you know, you look at the New Testament and says Jesus says love your love your enemy, So there there must be some sort of problem here, right. And then of course, one of the one of the most famous Marcian claims, and he wrote the Antithesis, which is pretty much just a bunch of comparisons between Old Testament God and Jesus. One of
one of his favorites is Elisha. This story of Elisha coming he'd just been appointed to be the prophet by Elijah, who was taken who knows where, and he comes back to and he comes across a group of kids. And mind you, the Bible says that these are a group of kids, and the wording you specifically is like kids ages like five to twelve, you know, like like these are kids, you know, middle schoolers, you know, not smart, just kids.
These kids.
Know that Elijah went up to heaven, you know, and so they pick on Elisha because Elijah was the big prophet and this new guy, he's bald, and so they say, go up, baldy, go up, you know, making fun of him, which is pretty funny and Elishah so offended and hurt scared because these little kids are making fun of him, call to Yahweh and says, please please do so something about these little children that are making me so scared
and making me hurt my feelings. And so God sends to she bears to mall fifty two children, killing them all. And contrast that to Jesus, who when the disciples tried to send the children away, Jesus said, no, send the children to me. You have to come to me as a child. In fact, like like, like Jesus loved the children. It's a very big contrast here. And you know, there's
a whole bunch of other things too. And in fact, the reason why I stumbled across Marcie is because I found so many of these small details within the New Testament that kind of point to the Old Testament. Dad is being being the bad guy, being the ultimate bad guy. Like the Book of Jude, the Letter of Jude, which is one of my favorite letters because it illustrates things that I have been pushing at for a little while. But the Letter Jude here is mentions now I'm gonna try and find it.
There is Uh.
This is when when the archangel Michael disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, he did not dare to bring a condemnation of slander against him, but said, the Lord rebuke you. And so I thought about that, and I had done some looking into it. What is that referencing? That is referencing a very specific event that happens in Deuteronomy. Now Moses himself is you know, he was unable to go to the Promised Land because
he broke the rules. We won't get into that. It's it's just more pettiness from the deity of the Old Testament.
I call him the law Bringer.
He like eight man or something. Petty. He was someone like you did this and you weren't supposed to, and it's like shit, you got me.
I forget what it was, all right, all right, So long story short. Moses was told once to hit a rock and water came from the rock, so he did that. The second time he was told to ask the rock to give water, and Moses hit the rock. Uh.
So Moses messed up. Yeah, he broke the rule. It's petty and so.
Yahweh takes Moses up onto the mountain and says, look at the Promised Land. That's the closest you're gonna get to the Promised Land. Now you have to die. And so Moses dies. We don't know how, but Jewish tradition tells us it's the kiss of death, like Yahweh gives him literally a kiss of death. Yahweh murders Moses, and of course Yahweh's sovereigns, so he could do what he wants. But but it also says that Yahweh buries Moses in
a place that no one else knows. Jude here says archangel Michael argued with the devil and argued about the body of Moses and where it was located. Why would the devil know where the body of Moses is located? I thought, Yahweh only knew where the body of Moses was located. Hmm, well, obviously, yeah, we just told the devil for no reason. Why else would that happen? But
it was things like this, And then what's another one? Oh, a great one is the temptation story in the in the in the Gospel of Matthew, and I pulled up real quick, I switched over and I pulled up the wrong one. But essentially this is after Jesus got baptized by John the Baptist, and he went out and to the wilderness for forty days, and he was tempted by the devil. And so the devil took him out and
showed he knew Jesus was starving. It was forty days of fasting, you know, he said turn the rocks into bread, and just said, I'm not going to do that, right, And then and then the devil took him up on top of the temple and said, if you're the son God, threw yourself down right. And so you think, well, why is the devil able to go on top of the temple. I thought the temple was the holy place, the seat of God himself, right, but the devil is just allowed
to freely go out there. Well, the devil is, you know, devil works for God. You know, again, apologetics ways of just blindly looking over the obvious that everyone else sees when it's pointed out. And then you know, Jesus obviously is like, I'm not going to throw myself down here, I right, And then the devil takes him up to a high place and it assumed a very high mountain. Mind you keep in mind, this whole event is fictional. We don't know if any of this happened.
Now.
Now it's claimed that the Gospels are eyewitness testimonies, they're not. There's no way to know if this event actually happened. This is a fictionalized story about Jesus. This shouldn't affect Now another addendum, this shouldn't affect your faith in Jesus. The fact that these are fictionalized stories shouldn't change your faith. But if you're not mature enough in your faith to
understand that, then I'm sorry. So the devil then takes them up to a very high mountain and says, look at all these lands, all these nations, and he shows them all the nations. He says, all these are mine, and I could give them to you if you just bow, you just bend your knee to me. Jesus says, I'm not going to do that, and so on and so forth. But it kind of gives away there. It's like, well, at what point in the Old Testament does yahweh give up all of the all of the nations to someone else.
It's like it's like the entire Old Testament. You always like, the whole of the earth is mine, the nations are mine, everything is mine. At what point, at any of this does he always say, oh, well, the devil can you can have it instead? Or is the devil lying? If the devil is lying, then why didn't Jesus say you're lying? No, what is in fact being said here is subtle. It got past a lot of people, I'm assuming, but it's saying here that the devil is the ruler of all
the nations, the god of this land. In fact, other places in the New Testament say the God of this world, and they refer to him very negatively. It's implied that the God of this world is the devil. Well, at no point in any scripture are you gonna find Yahweh referring to himself as anything but the God of this world.
So the New Testament, you don't have to go farther than the New Testament, canonical New Testament to realize, oh, Yahweh from the Old Testament, this Jewish deity, this Jewish pagan war deity, this Jewish pagan war desert storm deity, is actually the devil.
He's actually the the.
Tempter he is the one who set out laws that are impossible to fulfill so that he can judge you and send you to hell. That's what the New Testament is saying. And uh, you don't really need to cross your eyes to figure it out. You just need someone to point these things out and say and look at him rationally and think, oh, is that what's going on?
So there's already a war in the writings of the New Testament between Christians and Jews, and the proto Orthodox job in the first, second and third century is to convince people there are there is no war between the Christians.
And the Jews. In fact, there is There's never been a war.
And so they write the Book of Acts in probably about one point fifty one sixty uh to marry this character Paul to the Jewish Christian tradition. They make Paul out to be this uh, this Salman and that you know, the whole Book of Acts reads much more like a Homeric epic than it does Jewish scripture or even an early Christian uh stylings. Right, it's it's it's all about this,
this journey of Paul. He even he even climbs into a bucket and escapes down the side of a wall in a being lowered down at a bucket.
It's fun.
So they changed this the story of Paul. They create this character who was mind you, he Paul was famous, He was well known by this time. I take more stance of the like that there was a snowball of doctrine that came about because Paul wrote a lot of these letters in the forties through this through fifty five, which is when he died. And uh so he was sending out these letters to a bunch of churches, and these churches were rewriting them and reprinting them and sending
them out to different people. So Paul got around. And it wasn't until Marciene kind of compiled it all together and presented the New Testament that the pro Orthodox were like, okay, we need to deal with this. So they wrote acts and to make Paul a flawed person. And then they rewrote all of the letters that Paul wrote, and I added a few more in order to make his ideas marry better with pro Orthodox views. This Judaeo Christian idea.
Uh okay.
Well, also kind of one of the one thing I was kind of driving at is kind of even further going down that like faction within factions within factions. I was kind of curious, maybe there's nothing there the dynamic of like within these you know, ones that have you forsaken the Judaic God, the essentially the Judaic components that have come come around to them were there. I'm assuming they were probably splits there where maybe they found ways to try to pull it a little bit back more
toward tradition or whatever. Was there something along those lines or am I reaching there? Because I could kind of see perhaps a dabbling of certain demographics getting mixed into that and and maybe some interesting mixes there perhaps kind of similar to how we were getting at with I guess Christianity in how they kind of won over there
by appealing to the state. Maybe they they kind of infiltrated some of the the ones who you know or forsook, which kind of was kind of a little bit what I was driving out earlier, were some of the weird, spooky elements out there that you can kind of get into with that you might see especially among the elite
and symbolism when it comes to nacissism and stuff. So I didn't know if there was something maybe to that element, if that, you know, there was a subversion of of of sorts, that was a that occurred in a lower even lower factional level, because inevitably there are going to be in these whether it be Marsianism or whether it be narcissism that's forsaken the Old Testament God, there are going to be Jewish elements, I guess, or Judaic people who did either did used to believe or maybe even
someone might be lying or whatever, or just they used to believe that, and so their innate biases might cause certain riffs, may be i'd reaching, or whether it be riffs or maybe be straight up subversion.
Was there any am I reaching there? Did you see anything along those lines?
I'm just kind of curious, like within Gnostic Christian traditions or within more Judaic Christian traditions.
I'm talking sure, I guess maybe I'm not.
I don't have the the language like a when you say proto orthodox, are you meaning like the is that the that's not the Martianisms?
Is that they're you talking versions?
Okay, Yeah, what I'm talking about is the like the Gnostics, the Martianisms, the ones who have said essentially said, you know essentially don't jive with the Old Testament God Like within those elements, there's obviously going to be people who used to believe that, used to believe in the Judaic
God that have come over into that line of thinking. Now, I was just kind of curious where they're interesting factions within that, within those groups that have occurred from that dynamic, where there almost becomes this gentile Jewish divide within that in and of itself on a lower level, I guess.
Huh, I'll be honest, I wish I could have looked into that more. You know, a lot of these the problem with a lot of these Gnostic traditions is when you look into them, you run into a lot of brick walls. The fact that most of their writings have been burned, or their churches have been crumbled, or their congregations have been scattered. You know, the traditions that we
get are very, very broken up. And we have the pleasure of having these late second century and third century heresiologists, these people whose whole job is to point out heresies and to like tear them down, and we have the pleasure of relying on these very biased works to give us an illustration of what they believed, what these Gnostic traditions believed. We have Eranius, who wrote a whole bunch against heresies, you know, and then we have the anonymous
author of against all heresies. We have Tertullian. In the second century, we have Origin who wrote against a bunch of heresies, who was also himself called a heretic. But then later they were like, all right, never mind, he's okay. Now Adamantius, who was a which was the name given to this author who wrote a whole polemic against different types of gnosticism at the time. And we don't really
have the Gnostics writings. We have quotes of the Gnostics writings in herosiologist texts, which is how the Marcie Knight the this New Testament, the Marcian Knight got New Testament came about which it was reconstructed entirely from quotations. Because he caused such a stir. People hated him so much they wrote out is almost, you know, almost everything in his New Testament. They wrote it all out and were like, this guy sucks, and this is why, you know, like
the look at this, he's a bad He's a bad dude. Right, So we have access to those writings that are writings about Marcian same way we have access to writings about Gnostics traditions.
So without the Nakhamadi.
Corpus, the Nakhammadi Library, which is a whole bunch of different writings from these Gnostic traditions, without the nag Kamadi, we would actually have nearly no access to their actual thoughts, their actual ideologies, their actual theologies. That also being said, and going back to to your question, I almost feel like there was no need. Maybe there was an attempt at Jewish subterfuge, which you know we always yeah, you know.
We all keep it clear.
I kind of left an out too of like maybe not even necessarily subterfuge. I could just see innate biases, you know, making a play there as well.
But go on, yeah, well, I mean playing on that idea.
It's almost as if it didn't matter because the whole traditions, these whole traditions, these whole families of Christianities were demolished and wiped out by the by the end of the third century and going into the fourth century, they're no longer a thing. So without an Orthodox Church, without this Catholic Catholic Church without this singular institution kind of taking
up the entirety of Christianity. It could be that the diversity was the way to go in terms of preventing all sorts of these breakups, because I mean, if your intent is to undermine a group of people, you can do it if they're all one group of people. But if they're thousands of different groups of people, it's a little bit trickier, you know. I mean, I imagine from the perspective of some sort of cabal or you know,
sort of insidious actors. You know, you're gonna have a lot more trouble influencing a vast amount of groups than you are if you get every group into one umbrella, if you get all of them to come to the niceing table and agree on a specific thing like this is how we're gonna go about it from now on. You get them all in and then oh then you got free access to aeroone. But until then you don't really have access to them. And that also leads into
another little point. I mean, we can see that there were it wasn't one group of Jewish Christians, right, It wasn't one group of these proto orthodox people, right, it was more than one group, because we have four different Gospels, and there have four different interpretations of the events that happened to Jesus, and we have a bunch of different letters that don't necessarily agree on all sorts of things.
In fact, I could go back to Jude the letter of Jude, which I have theorized that Jude is calling Paul directly homo and is referring to the Pauline crowd. That is unproven, un unprovable, but I mean, I feel like I have a strong case for it. So Jude's calling Paul a homo. And you know, and this is in the first century. You know, the Apostles themselves don't even get along with each other. And they're all Jewish christ Jewish Christians. So looking at at the canonical Bible,
we have four different gospels. They were not written by the same author, They were written in the second they were written between the first and second century, they were finalized within the second century, edited, and all that stuff. So you have four different Jewish Christian traditions. And John, the Book of John, is much more gnostic than the other three, but the other three are are are quote
unquote biographical. I don't know why I do quote unquote and do air quotes, but you know, they they they're different groups of these proto orthodox Christians that came together at the Nicene create at the in Nicia, and they came to a conclusion like this is how we can marry all of these ideas together and kick out all the folks that are saying that that my God is bad.
You know, It's like it was a multi purpose committee, and one of those purposes was to get all the juice together, speak out all the non juice are the people who don't play along, and then get the emperor to give us the okay to make it a state religion, and then the Odysseus later on finalize it put into action.
All right, kind of one less and this is a little bit less about Marsianism, but kind of I guess it is probably more about narcissism and and kind of a little bit on kind of what I was driving
at in the previous question. I just kind of want to get your thoughts and kind of what I've teased that a little bit is I've noticed from some of my some of the conspiracy stuff I've dug into kind of like peeking behind the veil of like the weirdness when you get into like, am I seeing the weird elite, pedophile, satanic whatever the fuck? Like, Once you start into that realm, sometimes gnostic symbolism does seem to rear its head for
some weird reason. And that's kind of what I was driving a little bit with that question, like was there some sort of subversion?
Was there is there? Who knows?
Maybe even just ironic thing this like as above so below for example, like one one example that comes to mind is the church of a Brassis or a Praxis that was in the dude you know, involved in the True Treaux Affair, which you know was literally child trafficking and like the most the most sinister of things you can imagine.
But who knows.
Maybe it's some sort of weird inversion where like maybe a Braxis is the bad guy. I don't evenmb who in practice he really even is in gnocissism, particularly depending on your flavor, But at my point being who knows, maybe this is their reversal of it, their way, like, oh, we are worshiping the bad guy, but we're gonna look at it through the lens of these people who tried to break away from us. And there's so many different ways that you could conceptualize why this would peek out.
I mean, hell, they it is this like skin suit like you see with cargo cults, where they kind of they take the same thing and the same thing. Sometimes you'll even see similar things with a with they might use Greek or Roman god motifs, and it's the same concept Like it may not necessarily be through the lens
of narcissism. You do see this lots of different times present itself in different I mean, you know, different weird conspiracies or whatever, where this sort of symbolism peaks through this religious overtones, and it may sometimes be directly of clearly gnostic influence. So I'm just kind of curious what are your thoughts on that? Just kind of is that I mean, do you think I mean, there are so many different branches of it. So that's kind of what
I was driving with that question. Perhaps this is some sort of outgrowth of some sinister parts, or maybe this is just a you know, they're playing with symbolism, dabbling, you know, kind of pulling from all over the place kind of I guess a bit of a cultural appropriation from our Satanic elite.
Yeah, so I like Satanic elite as a term because when presented in this way, it kind of makes a lot of sense. But Satan, as we know it, is the god of this world and the according to the New Testament, right, Satan is the god of this world lower case G, and gnosticism is is ah is no Sis means knowledge is just the Greek word for knowledge.
Uh.
Demiurge means creator is just the Greek word for creator. And so when people refer to the demiurge, they're really referring to the Creator whatever they whatever that may be. And the Gnostic idea is that this demiurg is the god of this world. This world belongs to the demiurg, and gnostics also understand that dude's not good. I mean, you could look at it and I like the I
like the fine tuning argument. It's this whole idea that the universe was set perfectly so that we can establish life and all of that and then and your but then it's like, oh, but why is it so messed up? Why is the world so fucked up? Well, it's because the creator is kind of fucked up. Creator's imperfect. So so the gnostics take that idea and they are, you know,
the there's a choice at that point. We live in this reality where the God of this world is the God of material wealth, is the God of sacrifice, is the God of of law, is the God of is. You know, he's probably pretty broken after having lost this fight against Jesus. You know this, this this in the gnostic world view, that he had lost this fight to Jesus because he could not kill Jesus. Jesus came back,
you know. So gnostics now have this choice. They they they either give up physical reality, give up physical material possessions and they worship, well, not necessarily give up physical material possessions, but they understand that like the physical realm is not the end all be all. Gnostics say, well, God is above the physical and is above this world and is not the God of this world, but is it completely different God entirely, and we want to live
for that God. Right. And then there's the other side where these gnostics are saying, well, I understand all of this, but I want to appease the God of the material world, and so I will do so by following extremely closely what the god of this material world wants, which is a temple to his name, sacrifices to his name, burnt offerings to his name, murders to his name, and you know, devotion to his name. So if I want to get along with the god of this world, I got to
get along with the god of this world. If I want to make get big in this world, well it just appease to the guy in charge. And the guy in charge is the demiurge is Yahweh is the Creator, is the Jewish God, and so they This gnosticism is kind of dangerous in that it kind of reveals sort of this this this this very black and white sort of thing like this like be good, understand that this is a simulation or this is not reality real and give up the things of this world, or understand that
this is the simulation. And you can kind of you can just ask the boss say hey, give me a credit card, you know, give me give me a raise, and the boss will say, well, I'm gonna.
Need some children. It's been a minute, yeah, and I need some blood.
Right, And.
So you have these not sticks who.
And it is gnostics, right, I'm not I'm I'm not gonna front like they're they're gnostics, like the the Masons their gnostics. The the capitalists they're Jewish gnostics. They're they're using these this knowledge of the divine for their own gain in this physical reality. And the probably goes back for a long time. You know. Uh, it's uh an unfortunate reality.
But it's kind of it's it's what I see.
It's in terms of of these capitalist groups. Now I may have strayed a little further away from your question than initial, but yeah, that's the Yeah, I think.
You got the main the main beats kind of what I was getting at that kind of answers answer that there's almost this bifurcation between them.
Yes, you're giving, you're giving this ultimate choice.
Uh, you can have temporary comfort or eternal whatever eternal Uh, I don't know.
What's a fulfillment.
Perhaps eternal fulfillment I think would probably be the best way to look at it.
Uh, but I don't know.
I mean, even even if you think life's temporary, I don't know. Just I find it to be gross christ very iggy.
I don't know.
Yeah, it's weird, it's I know, you see these people who live for themselves, and it's like, it's funny because technically my worldview is like egoism. It is like, but it's like, also there's this weird paradox that comes in play. But it's like, but to be fulfilled and to have a happy life as an individual, it's like when it just makes sense to just have a wife, have my kids, Like, I know, that seems like and it's kind of held true so far, it's been the most fulfilling thing for me.
Uh So, I don't know, the idea of gobbling up children and giving them to my overlords doesn't really I don't know, seems like I'd feel pretty bad amount myself.
At the end of the day. It's I don't know how I would live myself even with a self centered philosophy. I don't know.
It's kind of whatever, it's a weird paradox, I guess, but like, I don't know, that doesn't seem like what I want to do.
Right, right, and it's it's it's so it's sickening. But it's like, I mean, if you want to be a billionaire, you gotta you gotta do the billionaire things you know you want to. You want power in this world, you gotta go to the person who has power over this world. And that's that's essentially where this whole gnostic thing steps in, is this knowledge that, yeah, the God of this world is evil and I can say I worship the God.
I worship God because it's the only God of this world.
Right.
Uh So all of these billionaires can get away going to church knowing that they're worshiping yahweh. And unfortunately most of the people in church don't understand who they're worshiping because they are never pointed out.
These things that I see is.
Obvious, but a lot of a lot of it's very easy to apologetics your way out of seeing these obvious things. Now, Marcian himself came to this conclusion by taking a literal reading of the Old Testament, and that's kind of how I came to the conclusion I found Marcian after I found out these things. Marcian himself said that, uh he was talking when it when in talking about Jews. Now,
mind you, this is after three failed rebellions. You got the Jewish Roman War, the I forget what the second one is in the early second century, and then the Barcopa in the middle of the second century. Uh, you have these three Jewish wars, and they're like, and Martian's just like, they're just doing the thing that their god tells them to do. I mean, they've always done it. Look at their look at their look at their scriptures.
They're just a warring nation. And then he's and then he also said, but but their god is the god of this world, so it makes sense that they're gonna win out in the end. So why do why are we associating with that? We as should just remove ourselves from that, not be violent, not participate in any whatever that is, and just have our own thing. But even Marcian himself was like, yeah, the je's kind of got a leg up on us in terms of who runs this whole thing.
Yeah, all right, well, I appreciate having you on today. Let people know where they can find you at and if you have any final thoughts, anything you really want to talk about, you know, any any questions that you felt like we should have addressed today, you can you can hit that now as well.
But floor as yours.
Yeah.
So, Marcian is deeply fascinating, and unfortunately we didn't get really into how much his existence breaks up entire the entire history of biblical scholarship. But just know that because of and you could look up modern scholarship. I can't go to deep into it right now or at a time. But Marcian's edition of the New Testament came with the Book of Luke and ten letters from Paul. Those are all written before. Those are all forms of those books
prior to canonical Bible. So whatever we have in the Bible, he has an earlier version of them. The Bible that we have is an edited version of those letters and the Book of Luke or the Avgel the Evangelian, which is what Marcian called it, or the Gospel. So because of that, all scholarship on Paul is wrong. All messages we get from on Paul's letters are wrong. Everything we know about Paul is wrong. Marcians existence shows to us
that the Bible and all the churches out there are wrong. Look, it's it's very unfortunate, it's very crazy, it's huge, But that Marcian. So I want to thank you so much for having me on Jose, giving Marcian a second chance, a second look through, because I think the setting around him is so fascinating the history of the church and the splinters that existed in it from the beginning of its creation till now. Even I think it's so deeply
interesting and thank you again for giving it a second chance. Guys, if you want to find me and see a little bit more about what I do and I do, go deeper into Marcian on my own channel. You can find it Season of the Rat on Rumble. I do have a show with Subliminal Messenger on Rubble as well called
Disagree to Agree. We were recently on Neffhlom Death Squad talking about the Discordian cult and this idea of the Golden Now check that out if you're all at all interested and give me a follow on x at Season of the Rat and uh Oh. I am a musician. I have an album by my album escape Saturn dot bandcamp dot com. It's called Where We Are and that's it for my plucks.
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