NWJ718- What is Marcionism? w/Tiller

dive into this. So I'm interested into hearing more. We will see you in the show. Make sure to subscribe and hit that bell for notifications. We'll see you.

to make do. So that's the caddiers. We're going the way Fuentes. Yeah, so glad to have you with me. Brother, you want to go in entreroduce yourself to the audience. I guess kind of give a whatever kind of summation you want to give people of you, uh and what you're about, uh and uh and the like. Maybe what kind of brought you in the sphere? I guess kind of.

then I found out you do your own show. And I think that's probably the after the whole split, you probably do the the best and most frequent content out of the the five of you. I believe.

as basically gnocissism. Is there any sort of meaningful difference between it and Mossism or is it just some sect of it?

rent free in their head for their entire lives. They just wake up and find reasons to be angry at yahweh, rather than waking up and finding reasons to appreciate Jesus.

I just think they're neat and interesting. And the Nagamaditi Nagamadi is one that I want to actually put in my physical collection. But it's it's certainly interesting, especially if you like read the Book of Genesis and you're like, huh, there's got to be something more here. The Namadi is like, oh, there's more here, but that's not Marsianism. And I'd like to talk more about that than Hebrew nonsense, you know.

But I guess kind of, I mean maybe kind of like maybe we should just spell it out for our audience, like kind of this key difference between like Judeo Christianity and like the is the Gnostics or the Marsianists or what what is that key difference?

It's obviously that uh and funny enough as me being someone who is an agnostic atheist, it's kind of an appealing argument in a sense because it is like if you do look at the full body of the Bible, you do see the Old Testament, New Testament, and you do see like it's always this like weird, confounded argument about some sort of Jesus did something in relation to law, and that's how it's somehow different than it was before or whatever the fuck, and so therefore, you know, it

was okay that he was a dick and was like, you know, totally advocating genocide and like, you know, doing all this crazy like murder everyone except for the women that still have their hymens, like like just insane, like barbaric stuff. And then you're like, but then New Testament comes, You're like, we're chill now, something to do with the

law or something, so we're cool. You know, depending on your interpretation, somehow it makes you you find a way to connect those two dots, whereas it seems like Gnocissism Marsianism is gone. Ah, no, your your instinct is correct. You got bamboozled, which leads to this inevitable Okay, well then there was a death cult and we might still be seeing that today. But I'll pass it off to you to kind of lay it out. I guess I kind of kind kind of revealed it there a little bit. But go ahead.

I'm not going to read everything off to him, but he was born in seventy CE right there. And he goes off and he follows the path that Paul took and collects everything. I can get a little bit more into the timeline later, but he gathers up all the works and makes the first Christian Scripture and then hands it off to the churches of that time and said, here you go, I did all this work, and he

was thanked by being excommunicated, exiled and all that. But to answer the root of your question, like the difference, because there are a few, but there are more than one sex of Christianity that kind of point out the hypocrisies in the Old Testament. The difference between Marcianism and all of those is, well, why are you still reading the Old Testament? Why do you why do you still give it the why do you still venerate it as holy texture, a texture scripture as holy texts, holy scripture?

Same thing, and why do you still even use it? Why do you why do you even let your kids read this? You know at that point and more or less, uh, we just kind of simplified. Well, it's not simplified. He he has had the first right. That's another thing is many the claims that people say, ridiculous thing. Apparently Marcion was a celibate, but he had a sex cult. You know, there's a Again, I have a whole nother list of

things that just don't make sense. Where they were trying to bash this guy in an extremely unfair way.

copy of a soft soft copy. And it has not only it has the Evangelicon, which is just kind of Jesus' story in one book, not split into four gospels. And it has all I think all of Paul's works, with some of Paul's works weren't brought into the Holy Bible that is the current canon, as well as we have the first Psalm book that you actually can't find in the current Bible, as well as some of Marcion's own works. He has some really like like really metal

stuff in here. Like you, I would I would recommend reading one book from here, and it would actually not be anything that's in the current Bible. I would read Marcian's Homily to Romans where he's talking that he's essentially he's in prison. This is when he came back and they have he's writing while he's bound, and he doesn't know what they're going to do with them because he's committed the crime of being a good scholar. And he's talking about how, you know, the beasts they have prepared

for me. This guy thinks that he's gonna get eaten alive, and he's like, you know, don't don't you know feel bad for me. This is what you should be doing as a Christian. You are going to be, you know, you're not going to have an easy life. You are going to be you know, attacked by for what you believe because of the evil people that are in this world. And I'm doing exactly what Jesus is asking me to do.

be in our church and believe those things. But the the core belief of Marsianism is that Yahweh is either likely early man's first interactions with the devil, and if you were if you were to meet the devil, you would think that he's a god too, right, I mean,

like think about what think about what power the devil has? Yeah, and if you were to meet him, like out of fear, one could definitely worship a devil, so that the idea is that he's either like a lesser, certainly not a god, or probably most likely just made up, you know, like why why did the thunder happen?

Although even then, I guess with the Nastics they have they tend to have some weird I know, it gets some weird like Adam and then this they have a weird whole weird. I mean, use you guys as not to get tun into the weeds of the founding story?

that's another distinction there is no virgin birth. Gnostics entertained the idea. I assume you know, every Gnostic is going to be different from person to person, but they entertained the virgin birth idea, and they all these other gnostic texts, and there were gnostics before Christ, and the Gnostics you know, took the story of Christ. Now I'm not saying they

perverted it. They you know, like confirmation bias. Right if if you heard about like, oh man, this guy, this guy Jesus was healing people, and did you hear that

last Friday they crucified him. He came back, you know, in this and that, you'd think, well, wow, you know, as as a Gnostic, they already I think were polygamous back then, don't quote me, so obviously you would take that as like, obviously this is proof of of divine something, you know, and they would just stick it in with what they already knew, and they would you know, it's it's not a perversion in a more of an adaptation.

out what exactly Marsianism is. I guess, uh maybe we can maybe one place to good to start off with us?

too confused to think. No, he came down in flesh because he is the son of God. He can do such things. He came and performed miracles. We know that this happened, and we actually have like legal like I guess documents, he would say, and uh, interesting enough, the when you look at why Jesus was tried in the Roman documents, he was crucified for blasphemy and the Hebrew texts he was crucified for sorcery, and both of those

things are punishable by crucifixion. So I think that's kind of it's not like, you know, someone had a camera phone back then, but it's about as good as evidence that we have that Jesus did in fact perform miracles enough to where the Hebrew people were like, no, he's performed in magic. He's got to go because of it.

kind of was driving out there. I mean, heck, even as we were saying with Jesus is kind of like you know, I mean a lot of times these different belief systems, it gets a little little airy fairy kind of oh, you know, we're all gods, you we all can you know, through the power of friendship or whatever, YadA YadA, find some way to make this weird universalistic type concept. Just I guess kind of one of the

main beats what are the important things? I mean, Like, I know, I grew up Baptists, Like if I was going to give the main beats Jesus came died for our sins, you know, you you say, hey, uh, forgive me for all that stuff, and yuh. You know, there's also this weird Baptism Baptist thing where you're you're supposed to like regularly check in and be like, yoh it did some fucked up stuff like could you cover me

for that one? And you're like, okay, cool, and then like but even with Baptists, you're like always covered theoretically, like technically, even though you would consider myself an atheist. Now, from my understanding of BAP Southern Baptists, I think technically, I mean, they'd find a weird way to be like, well you technically that must mean you never actually believed to begin with, you know, but like I can tell you right now, I did at that time when I used to do. But whatever.

at least most of us. I can't you know, speak for everybody, but you know we're not gonna just you know, say that people are damned who are clearly and there's.

be decent people. That's really all you need to do. There there There is a lot more to it than that. I can't just sit here and read the Evangelicon to you in an under a half hour. I'm sorry, I'm not that great, you know, but you know, more or less, there there are we have our own holidays, holy days, we do have our own sort of way of going about things. But essentially, believe in Jesus, be as Jesus

like as you possibly can fail. Sometimes, Oh well, you don't have to go tell a funny man in a hat and he says, I forgive you, even though it's only God who forgets you, you know what I mean? A little dig it Catholicism there, which it's weird you said Baptist. I didn't know Baptists did confessions. I'll forever be intrigued by the very many different are there of so many different?

because I was just trying to the salvation aspect. The main beats like you're supposed to get you pray for forgiveness from the you know, you recognize from your savior or whatever, YadA YadA YadA, and then you're covered and you're you're good that and you are supposed to. Well, technically it doesn't actually, from my understanding, it's not like it's gonna make it so you're therefore can't go to heaven or go to some sort of weird purgatory place

or something, but you are still supposed to. I guess it's encouraged. I guess is the way to look at the regularly ask for forgiveness.

too high that that's a common one for me. I get a little bit, you know, a little too ramped up, and I just I just let it fly. And then and then I later think like, okay, next time, maybe I just walk away. I wish I could walk away more frequently, but that's too personal.

of danced pretty close to this already. But another big thing is they'll be like, oh, Marcion, no the heretic, right, you follow the religion of that heretic, And like, okay, but who are you to call him a heretic? Though, like what evidence do you have? What cin did he commit?

You know, supposedly they'll they'll say that he edited the Bible in a certain way, and for one, you don't know that you don't really have any evidence that you're going by what some person said nearly two thousand years ago, like saying that, how do you know that the person who you are reading from isn't lying? How do you know that he is the one that committed said I?

but a couple interesting things. I kind of lost what the original question is. But something interesting is one thing that Marcy Knight's actually had in common with the first couple century Christians, is that a like the Holy Bible you read now is a peterine or petering. I don't know how you Petering sounds like something I don't really want to. I don't want to dirty this conversation anymore

than I may have already had. But it's what the Holy Bible currently is, and it's the judaized version of the the Holy Bible of the Faith. Whereas Pauline or Pauline, how have you actually pronounced? That is actually what most early Christians were. They believed in a at least less judaized version of Christianity. It was it was far more common for them to believe in that sort of way of thinking. Yeah, the original, the original Bible, which is we have a we have a reconstruction of it, but

the Testamentum didn't follow these petering It just sounds so silly. Ah, the original like Christian goals of of the Council of the name nice see yeah, yeah, nice seeing council.

I mean, obviously I don't know. I mean that probably could easily be like a three hour podcast, but kind of, uh, the kind of the beats, I guess the main beats are that you know of, or maybe anything of interest. I'd assume it probably resided in an interesting I don't know, an interesting place in the in the in the history of religion, because it is, like I don't know, I guess it kind of alluded to in the beginning of the show, how these things kind of tie in together.

And this may not be as like a uh, you know, you know, separated from the sort of stuff I typically cover, as might think like hell even the intro like like as I alluded to, like a death cult, like that's what those you know, some of the bad stuff is there. But even then the symbolism, and which is something I usually think of when I think of gnoscissism, you do see once you start realizing gnoscissism, the concepts of inversion and stuff. We see this played out in conspiracies and

the elite all the time. And sometimes it'll be Christian symbols. Sometimes it will be gnostic symbols. Sometimes it will be you know, it's kind of in let's be real in a certain sense, narcissism or even Marxianism in some sense, this is a little bit of an inversion of the typical Judaeo Christian understanding and vice versa. So these are

these sort of symbols we see. So I think kind of looking at it from a historical perspective and maybe even how it fits in to that paradigm there, because especially if you're someone who thinks Marsianism is a correct way and maybe that something like something like a naism could be like maybe a little bit of a bastardization of your of some sort of semblance of your beliefs, that maybe you could start seeing for the symbolism some

of the weirdness there. So I guess it's a little an open ended, kind of an ambiguous, vague question there. But I guess kind of the historical you know, you know, significance, I guess, you know, if you want to give some to a rundown, And I guess the secondary thing I was driving it there is like, uh, do you notice symbolism?

Is there something that you pick up, you know, from your understanding of Martianism that maybe those who only only really know of things like narcissism or you know, or maybe you know, because even then naism is another layer once you learn about narcissism, because you know, we always people might just think of like, oh, Judaism and Christians and you kind of think of the big three, and then now you have to think naism. How do you

incorporate that? It is all kind of confusing, And now you find about Martianism, which is kind of its own distinct thing from nascism as well. And if I was a believer of that, I very much would think that naism was a bastardization of my beliefs. But anyways, I'm I'm kind of dragging on there. I think you kind of get what I'm getting at.

And they were just like right away immediately trying to staple the Hebrew Bible to Christianity, and it kinda around forty eight se it came to a head where the first Christians, including Peter, Paul, and James, agreed that the Hebrew Bible laws were antithetical to the teachings of Christ and that that I can I can go off of

for a while. I have examples from the Old Testament and the Testamentum that are great proof that the Old Testament God is absolutely not the God that Jesus was talking about.

So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven and hasted not to go down about the whole day. And there was no day like that before it or after it that the Lord hearkened under the voice of Man. For the Lord fought for Israel and Ladosians for four twenty six, which you would know Ladosians as Ephesians. It says, be ye angry and sin not, let not the sun

go down upon your wrath. So that's just one example of how the old God was about, like, let this anger drive your actions, whereas you should instead, you know, be the be angry and not be you know, a degenerate about it. Maybe a better and less long winded example would possibly be in the Book of Psalms in the Holy Bible. He says he cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath and indignation and trouble by

sending evil angels among them. However, contrast and Galatians. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Just more examples of how God clearly is a a good God, or at least the God spoken of Christ and who we believe is the true God, is a patient God. And how often what other examples I can just think about the top of my head is somewhere in somewhere in the Old Testament he says, for I

am a jealous God. I think that's in like it's like super early, it's in Deuterotomy, or maybe even Genesis, and just so on and so forth. There's Exodus four, eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for a foot.

and let people take all your stuff. Jesus, I'm gonna misquote this likely, but a man, a well armed man in a castle would will keep peace or something to that effect. Just off the top of my head. He's more or less saying, take the defensive route, be not offensive, don't go out and you know, push the Palestinians out to Egypt or whatever they're trying to do it. Don't antagonize, Yeah,

don't antagonize. Don't don't de escalate that throws the first punch. Yeah, de escalate is even better, honestly, because if you can stop a fight without actually throwing any of your own punches, that's absolutely the best way I've I've done this before where so I finished a fight someone hit me in the face and I just kind of like, like I was genuinely confused. It was like is that like without saying anything, it was like, is this all this guy has?

And then he threw a few more and I was like, bro, you I should paraphrase because people from the church will see this, but I was like, you kind of hit like a lady man. And he threw a few more at me and I was just like, I just I just left my hands by my side and I was like, I'll just I could do this all day, my guy. And that ended the fight and probably the best way. And I've I've been unfortunately in more than one fight, and that was probably the most proud of myself I've

ever felt. It felt the best on the inside that I had done the right thing by not harming a person, even though this person had thrown a dozen swings at me and it's not like he didn't do any damage. I had a bloody lip and a little bit, but at the end of the day, I was like, I could probably take this for an hour. I should just let him make a fool of himself and truly, that ended up being the best result because I didn't get

in any sort of trouble. I don't think he necessarily did either, but I'm sure he went away feeling a little bit less like a man.

I guess this is always going to depend on the situation. But but don't be so quick to anger, you know what I mean, When it's only words, you know, meet them with words, if if, if there's a reaction necessary exactly.

took things over from there. But I think it was with Debun he was one of the first or first that I know of, to actually pick this up and I think they found, like the recreation that we have now is actually we've found a bunch of people who were so mad at Marcion. And to that I only have to say, you know, in our book it's Galatians four fifteen. In the Holy Bible, it's four sixteen. You know, so I have told you the truth, and am I

now your enemy? Well, he he must have told a whole lot of the truth because he made a whole lot of enemies and they he just lived rent free in their head for probably one hundred years after he died, you know. So they people were quite mad, you know, Jews, Jews in fact, very very mad, and they just wrote and wrote and wrote and wrote and wrote and wrote, and that's how we ended up compiling what we have today.

It's almost like a living document because we're always going to you know, there's there's at least like if you if you dig, you can find maybe a dozen different reconstructions of it. Now, I recommend the Testamentum that I have, and I can tell you more about where to find it at the end of the show. But that's more of like because there's like the minimalist reconstruction that's like we know at least he said this much, but then

that's not a complete story. And then there's people who kind of like, you know, overshoot it quite a bit. I think ours is kind of in that middle ground where it's like, this is what makes sense. This is this goes with the theology, and that's what we have with the testamentum. Plus we have the like I said, the Psalm Book and so much more works besides that as well. But I think it wasn't until like seventeen hundreds that people started being curious about Marcian's Gospel as

they would call it. And now with you know, the war in Gaza, everyone's like, this non judaized Christianity is is something else. It hits the palette quite in a freshing way. I just I don't know why I remember the the cream taste or meme. Okay, let us sit on the palette a little bit.

get you out of here. Uh but I guess this is kind of We're kind of right at the last question I have and kind of bringing this back full circle in the sort of stuff that I kind of like to cover, and I kind of you always see these themes of inversion, you know, inversionism when it comes like Satanism and stuff like that, and I was kind

of getting into that. You we you see that, or or dialectics and how things play off each other, like for example, the Judeo Christian or the Judaic religion or whatever the big three you know, Islam, you know, Judaism and Christianity, and yeah, and how those things play off each other. And then and then later you you know, we discover things like narcissism that then you go, oh wow,

this provides a new spin on it. And then now you know, in a certain sense you have another inversion with of that with Marsianism in a certain sense obviously keeping certain themes from things like narcissism, but obviously not buying into some of the other stuff. So I guess I'm just kind of curious because, as I've said, you start seeing these symbols play out these dialectics. Uh, and so I'm just kind of curious when it comes to symbolism,

is this something that you see? Do you have a unique perspective, you know, coming from your where you're at, you know, because it is always like trying to read the symbolism. You say, symbolism, will it be their downfall? And so you're like, you know, obviously you think Marsianism is the thing. So you may have a different interpretation of all this different symbolism we see. And it's not it's not often, it's not uncommon we see agnostic themes

and stuff. So but you might interpret that is Marxianism or an inversion of Marsianism, and so on and so forth.

be on there from nearly two thousand years ago. It is on a Marsiannite church that I think still stands unless Israel's bombed it since I last checked. But for the most part, we don't really do a lot of symbology. We don't really get into that. On the other hand, me personally, I'm very intrigued by this symbology. I know, I even got into a little bit of numbrology. I personally read these gnostic texts, but I kind of read it in the sense of, like, Okay, what is it

say in Satan's Bible? You know, why why is it that the Jewish people are sacrificing or read Heifer? But that doesn't have anything really to do with Marsians. It's it comes off as idolatry, right, yea, like all these weird symbols, you don't really like symbols are a material thing. God is a spiritual thing. You don't like anytime you go and use a symbol like that, to me, it feels like you're trying to control the spirit with a material thing, and that just doesn't really seem like a

spiritual experience to me. It seems like witch graphics.

what Jesus would actually do. And actually, one final point, what I should clarify, what Jesus would actually do, not what was then later interpolated into the text and added to make him seem more Jewish. Jesus was not a Jew, even if you think for some reason he was born of a virgin. That's a virgin, and God put supposedly the spirit into that virgin. So how is he then a Jew? That said, Marcy Unite Church of Christ dot com.

Thanks for having me on. It's been a pleasure. Honestly, it's been a good laugh.

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