Top lots of productions.
It was a layered operation that achieved many objectives, but it facilitated the growth of the state as well, and it facilitated that path of the dystopian nightmare, you know, and the violation of our our inherent rights. So that was an inherent example of the federal government's.
Abuse of power. Oh five to me, do we care what we oh?
We can? What we conser? Holy cow, not a third of the bublic had been belongable.
And wee oh time we go, say way.
Down we go and way down we.
Go, Way down we go? Ah cus day, will un yet down down to the dark dock?
Yeah? Benley, well nay.
It down down to your phone?
Ohmy, will yet down down to your co Yeah, till you can't crawl no more.
Hey, welcome to another episode of No Way Jose. Today, I am joined by Ken Silva. We're coming to you with some unfortunate news and also we figured we'd take this opportunity to give you some other Oklahoma City bombing updates. There have been some new things to kind of add
this to the Oklahoma City bombing playlist. But before we get into it, I do want to take a moment to let you guys know that if you want to support the show and if you want to get a superior shaving product, good way to do that is Nado Shaveco. Use Jose at checkout for ten percent off. This is much better preferable to those multiplaid nonsense razors out there. It gives you a much smoother shave with with you know, only one razor and one razor you're dragging across your face.
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Use jose a check out, get ten percent off. With that that that's enough of that. Let's go ahead and get Kent in here and get into it. What's up man? A long time?
No, see, yeah it has.
It's been at least probably six months since I've been on this show. So yeah, good to be back.
Yeah, I mean I'm still covering you regularly now. I've adopted a morning show, so I do your your articles come up quite frequently. But it's a good to have you back. It's a little it's kind of your profile has grown significantly since the last time we came. I was kind of like, holy moly. So it's good to see good people getting recognition. You're kind of like on the short list of people that I do try to shout out in the realm of stuff that me and you are interested in. So it's cool to see see
people moving on up. So hell, you're what the editor in chief over the headline, so that's news since the last time. You're your own editor in chief now, so I mean that's more responsibility. So but yeah, how's that treating you? I mean, if there's anything else you want to, you know, mention to my audience to about yourself in the meantime. But I know, it's been cool seeing this stuff you've been doing. You've been breaking a lot of big stories and you're receiving the due recognition for it.
Yeah, I appreciate that, and I do turn into your morning show quite frequently. Yeah to hear you talk about my articles, and always appreciate that. Yeah, we're making a changes at Headline USA. I took over as editor about two months ago from a good friend of mine. Ben Sellers, who hired me, got nothing good but good things to
say about him. But we've kind of changed the editorial stance from more like a mainstream maga pro Trump site to hardcore paleo libertarian slash conservative or right wing if you want to say that. But we're going hard against you know, the Trump administration when they mess up onlike any other sites, we're running anti war dot com articles thanks to Scott Horden's blessing work, so you can find Dave de Camp Kyle Ans alone. And we just hired a new deputy editor to work with me, Jose Nino.
I think a lot of your viewers might be familiar with that name. He's done some work for the Libertarian Institute and MESIS and uh, really smart guy. Just gonna you know, make him a hardcore journalist too.
Yep, he's a he's the name, I've heard around the around for a while. He's definitely been in these circles for a hot minute. But uh, as I said, we have a few things I want to get through, a handful of little updates, you know, new things in the story that I feel like anyone who really does want to have a grip of this story, you know, an ongoing understanding that these are new developments that I think
you need to know. Uh And namely probably I said, we'll probably just go ahead and get right into the main one, which is what brought us here today. And and it just kind of was like, hey, there's a few other things I feel like we should mention. H But I guess Carol Howe, which for those we did cover this in the series a little bit, I figured we'd take a moment to kind of cover a story again real quick, just you know, may as well use the opportunity to kind of.
Tell her story.
But it looks like she likely perished recently, because I don't I think she it's it's a kind of happen the air whether she actually went to witness protection. But essentially she's one of those characters that just disappeared for a while and then now the next thing we.
Hear of her, she's dead.
It's one of those characters that I think we a lot of us, okay Illklahoma City researcher types, have kind of hoped was going to be alongside something like a surveillance safe to just pop out of the woods one day and be like, I'm ready to talk or here I am. But this is the here I am, we get here I am.
I'm dead.
So that's a little bit bummer from my understanding the stories. She's a little bit hero. But obviously there are different sides to this story, which I'm sure we'll get into later as well, but I'll pass it off to you to just kind of give us the latest in what's going on with Carol Howe.
Yeah, for those who don't know, you know, she was kind of a troubled child, like a wild child in the eighties, you know, good looking teenage girl. Eventually gets in with the wrong crowd. I think she claims that she got beat up by some black people and that's why she got, you know, attracted to Nazism and starts hanging out with like the neo Nazis. Dennis Mayhon makes
her way to Ellaheim City. She's from Tulsa, and while there she gets kind of like a front row seat to you what we think is plotting of the Oklahoma City bombing. And we know for a fact that she warned her handler and I think January ninety five that a guy named Andrea Strassmeyer and Dennis Mayhon and a couple other neo Nazis were casing federal buildings in Oklahoma
and that an attack was impending. And the reason that we know this for sure is because after the bombing happens, Carol Hall starts talking about it, and the DOJ charges her with having explosive material. We think probably is retaliation and to shut her up and to prevent her from possibly testifying at Terry Nichols trial, which I think she
did anyways. But in any event, at her trial, her handler agent was called the testified, and the handler agent confirmed under oath that yes, Carol did tell me in January that Nazis were casing federal buildings. So and in that regard she's highly credible. You know, it's a really sad story. After she beat the charges, she kind of just dropped off the grid. A good journalist named John Ronson, who people might know. I think he and Alex Jones were the ones to go into the Behemim Grove in
the late nineties. So was Yeah, he's a long time conspiracy guy. That's Ronsion.
That just made a few things click in my my conspiracy mind.
But god, okay, interesting, I'll be curious on your thoughts for sure. Yeah.
So he did so position and you think that he's a stoopid Yeah.
So yeah, he did a podcast two years ago about Carol how that's got some interesting information but ultimately concludes that Carroll How's not credible. But you know, you talked to somebody like Richard Booth. We highly disagree with that. But to Ronson's credit, he's the one that discovered that apparently Carol Howe died in January in a house fire.
And he put out a new episode that I just listened to today that's got a lot of good info in it, some negative, but some really interesting that actually can corroborates How's credibility.
Was this so he did draw you said, he dropped some new new content and this was what after or before like after the revelation.
Yeah, so he did an episode or a whole series in twenty twenty three, right, and then this month I think just today, or at least I listened to it today. It was like he like did an epilogue OKA type type episode where he talks about how she died, like the months leading up to the death some people who knew her in Tennessee, like in recent years. Like, there's some pretty interesting stuff there.
Okay, interesting, I don't have to go check that out.
It wasn't there where I heard epilogue being referred to, but I thought that was a literally probably the epilogue for his previously written or previous story, uh the Debutante, which I believe you're referring to, which is the Carroll Howse story, which I find to be quite ludicrous. I'm pretty sure I was very close to almost doing a whole episode with Richard just to be like pointing out all the ludicrous things in it.
Not gonna get to do it now.
I don't remember any specific things, but it basically was the absurd position of coming away from this and thinking I should take Andy's word.
For it and not the in not Carroll Howe's, but.
Just just saying uh uh but anyways, yes, so she I guess so she died.
You said it was a house fire?
Is what? Is?
What? What we're we're understanding was it what the undercurrent understanding is.
That's right, and yeah, this is brand new news. So I've yet to investigate this. I do. I filed foys with the ATF and the FBI for her records now that she's deceased, and I'm planning on doing similar searches with the local fire department get the incident reports, so I'll have more to more to hopefully, and if any other researchers want to beat me to that, fine, I'm plenty busy. I would please somebody scoopy do so I
don't have to do the work. But they're and by the way, the ATF already denied my request, so this is interesting. I could break this news. I filed it this morning and they responded in the afternoon saying, you know, we're denying it. You need to prove that Carol Holle is dead, otherwise we might be violating her privacy rights. So they're not taking the report's word for it. I don't know if it's a stonewalling tactic or bureaucracy, but in any event, it got somewhat interesting, But yeah, she
dies in the house fire. But the podcast goes into like she really seemed to spiral into severe paranoia, where in the years leading up to her death she was pretty much a shut in. She would even like smoke cigarettes in like a little stowaway department like under her house. She wouldn't go outside. Probably a little bit schizophrenic, and the question is were people actually still messing with her
or were she just spiraling into mental illness. That's exactly right, and tar Ronson's credit, he does leave that open apparently, so this is interesting. She made of friends with like a local tough guy who would like fix her car at like ten at night, because again she's a shut in, doesn't want to let anybody in her house. She wouldn't even take out the trash because she thought that somebody
would take the DNA. By the way, I think we forgot to mention she was living under an assumed name, well, Sarah, what's the name, Sarah, Sarah Collins. So yeah, she wouldn't even take out the trash because she's worried that they might get her DNA and figure out It's really how At one point she's in the backyard with the guy, and she says, they get down and she thinks somebody is watching them, and they crawl back to the house.
She told the guy that she had infiltrated like Muslim extremist groups ahead of the twenty twelve Boston bombing, So it seems like she kind of wanted to get the psychological baggage off her chest without telling the guy like who she really was. Like it, it is interesting.
That that or she did more. I mean, I doubt it, but it's like.
Infiltrating Arab groups. I think it was just like a twisting the facts, you know, for psychological.
I guess that would make sense if she did feel the need she wanted to confide in someone and have someone to you can't say it because then obviously be I don't know, it's pretty she's pretty fucking famous, So it's like a I don't know. I guess most most people would have no idea, I mean, unless you're like one of the handful of researchers out there. But still even then, and you know, you wouldn't be too hard to put two and two together, So I guess I get that, but it is still, man, that is weird.
I mean, yeah, so she believe if she was being watched by the FEDS up till her death. And again there are where there are definite signs of mental illness. I mean, I would say, going all the way back to when she was a teenager, probably, But you know, she's been credible on so many things that like we we can't definitely dismiss it. We gotta you know, I'll still be investigating and look closely at the fire report and everything like that.
I mean people, and also given the context of this story where you have tarn Tiki Kenneth trying to do Michael Loudensonger, doctor Chum Lee would uh aiding Gillis no, not eiding.
I forget his name, Gillis Parker. I forget the one of one Richard Lee Guthrie. Like it's just like we could just rattle off name name name name name, name name name.
So it is a I don't know, the Muller murders, Like, it's not that it's not that crazy.
Keep in mind we're coming up on you know, when she died, it was months ahead of the thirtieth anniversary of the bombing, but it was the already at the anniversary of her informing on the bombing. So yeah, take you know, do that what you will. One of the most interesting things from Ronson's podcast was that her cousin Lucy, who had a lot of bad things to say about Carol but did confirmed that Carol definitely saw McVeigh before
the bombing. So Lucy tells a story that it's the Christmas in ninety four, so four months ahead of time, and her grandma just died and the grandma's like maiden name or middle name was McVeigh, and so she's like, Okay, I'm gonna name my kid's middle name McVeigh to honor
my grandma. And Carol just goes like, you're not gonna want to do that, And so that comes from the cousin that hates Carol, but she admits that well, in this regard, she definitely called it because when the bombing happens a couple months later, the cousin freaked the hell out. So that's there. That's another really juicy, juicy drop in Ronson's podcast.
That is interesting.
I mean, I guess it makes I guess that's just all that does emphasize the level of uh, I know, foreboding. I guess she had essentially because she had already warned
him about it. I mean she had to did what we mentioned earlier, the the multiple occasions which you can go look at the files and you know, see the transcripts that say this where it's you know, her reporting on what with we're going with Dennis Mayhon and Strasmeier multiple times into to I believe case the courthouse and the in the federal buildings if I recall correctly, so and other buildings as well.
So it's a you know, Yeah, her specific comment about McVeigh is interesting too, because we didn't have any I don't think there's any actual smoking gun that says that she definitely saw him.
I knew if you listen to the full Debutante podcast, there's a lot of like she changes story and there's conflicting reports on whether she may have saw somebody named Tim Tuttle or not. But the cousin's story is very compelling to me.
Yeah, she, uh, if I recall correctly, I believe, didn't she think. I believe she thought that the actually the John Doe one sketch.
Was one of the Ward brothers.
Yeah.
Yeah, so, I mean so that as a if you're trying to look for identifying McVeigh, I mean, it's weird.
She says it two months later the other point, I was gonna try.
But it's just kind of like, obviously she knew that they were visiting, but it's like we didn't really have an idea of to what degree she was concerned, Like was it just like, oh, you saw this. But obviously if two months ahead she's mentioning, oh, don't name McVeigh, it's kind of like, oh shit, something else is going on here, or she has a greater she probably has more information.
So there definitely was.
Probably more we don't know of, but man, yeah, this is a This is interesting, So I guess they're probably more to come on this. I mean, I don't know if there anything particularly in the vein of Carol Howe that you feel.
Like we should mention at this point.
I think for anyone that's a you know, ignorant of everything, I think we kind of gave the main beat.
She worked. She became an informant in Elam City.
Alam City is like obviously where we kind of purport that the AAR kind of set up their home base and there are you know, an assortment of between that group of aar there are assortment of different ways that we.
Can connect McVeigh to that group.
So I mean kind of to just a quick and dirty for people, but you know, obviously than Carol Howe being the informant they were talking about here. So yeah, just kind of a quick rundown in case I forgot anything so far as the basics for new people, you know, jumping on board, But is there anything else in the vein of her before we move on to other updates, because I mean I can't think of anything else.
Go ahead for people who are interested in Carol how if they don't want to buy John Ronson's podcast on audible. Yeah, there's also a TV show that came out two years ago that's pretty good. It's the second season of the Waco series for Showtime. It's Waco the Aftermath, which leads up to the oka See bomb, and it has Carol Howe at Ellaheim City scene, McVeigh and Strasmeier planning it.
The show's not perfect because it leaves out John Doe two and a bunch of other stuff, but it's really entertaining and if people don't want to dig into a book or an article or a podcast, I would recommend that last thing. I'll say. Speaking of Strassmeier, so longtime listeners know that I interviewed him two years ago when that show about Carol how came out, and he obviously called Carol How crazy, said she made up everything. And I do an article on Strasmeier responding to the show
and how it depicted him and Carol How. After that, he stopped responding to my messages just totally. I thought Strasmeyer got pissed off of my article and just decided to cut me off totally. But when Carol died today, I messaged him and her responded right away. So that shows you how much he cal He's probably having champagne right now. And so she he gave me a really interesting quote if I could find it.
Maybe you have it, oose, Okay, what quotes?
This just what he told me.
Give me a second, I'll bring it right up.
Uh okay. So he yeah, he responds, he said, I said Carol Hall died, and he goes karma or is somebody covering his tracks? It's a weird thing to say. And then he said finishes How played an essential part in the conspiracy to frame innocent people for the Oka City bombing. It's like, Okay, well she didn't frame anybody because nobody got charged for it, nobody outside of McVeigh. That's kind of a weird thing to say, Karma or somebody covering his tracks.
Yeah, it is a weird thing to say. It does a I mean, I don't know. I mean, obviously we can get super conspiratorial. I don't know to a degree Andy would even be in the know if there was some conspiratorial or something. I think he just probably is being glib and he's probably obviously that's his sans so whatever. Like you said, you did interview him a while back, which that is a little bit of an update. I don't think we've really covered that on there. I just
figured we'd take it. Obviously he disagrees, so and you know, the Ronson it seemed Ronson bit onto this narrative because, as we mentioned earlier in the Debutante, he does seem to kind of fall into that line of thinking. I believe he even goes into like some of the good the Godiva like strip club stories and some of the other different tales out there. Some of the sources feel
point to and tried to tear him down. It was very much was like a debunking type of podcast, it felt like, and then a lot of those ended up failing. Richard did a good job when that happened of slapping a lot of those things down and be like, no, this is you're wrong. So this was very much seemed to be a weirdly podcast who I don't know back up his.
Narrative for some weird reason.
So I guess just kind of there was just any thoughts with that you did just recently really the full interview for those who want to check it out, you do have an article on it, so if those who want to get the key takeaways, but I just is there anything in particularly you feel like it's worth mentioning that you know his take on things.
Obviously we've kind.
Of alluded to it already that you know he didn't do nothing, you know, didn't do nothing type thing.
I mean, even for.
Those who are really deep researchers and know the what's typically referred to as the damning statement he made to Pritchard, which actually, you know just fair well. I actually didn't finish the book, but I'm done with the OKAC portion of that book, but in that in there, he like basically does what a lot of people refer to as essentially his his what's the word I can't Why can't I think of the word where you admit to doing
something wrong? A confession is confession Essentially a lot of people think that was essentially his confession, but in like a OJ.
Like what if I did it type way.
But he even pushes back on that and says that, uh, Pritchard won't ever and wants rich Pritchard to produce the tapes, so which I will give him the slightest bit of credit that to where it's like, hey, Prichard probably should release the tapes, and him not release the tapes does kind of look bad and kind of does give to you know, Andy's point, you know that like, hey, this is just some dude somewhere saying something, because that's kind
of all it is right now. So unfortunately, I wish Pritchard would release it because then it would be far more than some dude saying something, and that that little bit is pretty damning. So I know, any thoughts and just kind of his his his stances on all this or any of the like really.
Yeah, I gotta give it to him when the criticism of Pritchard seems valid to me, And if you go look back at that book, I guess it might be fresher in your memory. But the dialogue does seem a little too perfect, where like at the end, Strasmeyer supposedly goes like shiza and like why like hangs up the phone or something. It's like, really, like that doesn't sound Yeah, it sounds a little too like scripted.
I guess you'd have a better read of how he talks than but yeah, it doesn't. Now after after having heard him audio a few times, I feel like, yeah, that would be weird for him to say. I don't feel like he would speak German English like that.
I don't know.
That seems too cheesy, But I don't know. I mean it's hard to tell. Yeah, I mean it is. It does seem almost too good to be true. And then we have the person that it was aimed at saying hey, release it, and the journalists not releasing it.
So I don't know. I don't know enough about.
Rick Pritchard's work to really be willing to accept that, like it's that his word is that, you know, golden that will you take it.
I don't know.
Maybe he's an amazing journalist and he's never lied ever, ever, ever ever or been wrong, but uh, I just it seems kind of kind of a wild thing to just take on faith. So that is fair on Andy's point. As much as I want to just nail him to the wall, it is that one that that point is pretty fair.
Yeah, yeah, I think so, and that you know, Pritchard is really highly regarded with some of the ogs, like Kathy Sanders loves Pritchard, So I'm not going to disparage the guy. Yeah, he should release the tapes. Though. What Andy told me is that this is really interesting because it lines up with one of what one of his buddies has said that he thought that the McVeigh pulled.
The whole operation was for McVeigh to pull the truck into the building where atf agents were like downstairs in the parking garage ready to arrest him, but the truck was too big to fit. That's what he told me. He go check out the interview, it's on tape.
Uh.
And that lines up with what one of his buddies, Dave Holloway told somebody who informed to the FBI It came out in a three h two report. Who is Dave Holloway. He's the guy who helped Strassmeier escape the country. They crossed the border into Mexico and I think flew up to Belgium or something, took the train down to Germany.
Where do you learned to fly ken? Where do you learn to fly ken? Where do you learn to fly.
Well that's the thing. So Holloway is also a CIA pilot it and that this was a finding that our Twitter hero Boltzmann Booty found maybe like four years ago, pretty brand new news as far as Oklahoma City bombing lore goes. And so I asked Strasmeyer. I think I caught him off guard. I said, you know, did you know your buddy Holloway was in the CIA or he purports to be. And Strasmeyer was like, oh, yeah, yeah,
he did. He flew for Air America, which is like kind of just a shorthand for Air America was a CIA front that, you know, shipped a lot of guns and drugs during Iran Contra, and that's a big mission to that. Strasmeyer knew that at the time that he's hanging out with him in the early nineties, while pat CON's going down. He didn't give me any more beyond that. I said, well, you know, don't you think that's odd
or significant? And he just said, you know, no, not really a lot of military guys are in this circles.
They was slinging a purportedly was slinging guns for to Cuban exiles, for Roger Moore as well.
So he mean, and that's oh.
I want to bring that up real quick.
I don't want to go too far off from a tangent, but if you I watched the Oklahoma City April nineteenth documentary on HBO, and one of the authors, Stewart Wright, who wrote a book like the Politics not the Politics of Terror, but a similar titled book about the bombing, said that McVeigh was.
Doing straw purchases on the gun show circuit for the Nazis, where he would buy guns legally and then give him to people who can't legally own them. Which that's what Operation Fast and Furious was all about. And we know that Operation Fast and Furious originated with pat Con. We know that because of John Matthews and Jesse Trena. Do they say like it was running out of the lone Wolf Gun Store, which was later in twenty eleven involved
in Fast and Furious. So the reason I bring this up is because that tells me that, yeah, McVeigh probably was a fed, if that's true, that he's making straw purchases while for like this prelude to Fast and Furious. I just thought that was super fascinating.
Can you imagine?
Obviously is incredibly speculative, but I believe it was, and I think I think I know Richard's mentioned before, and I believe this is information that I believe is coming out Margaret's new book, Margaret Roberts. So I think we'll get the specific source. Just so many books always coming on. I hate it when I have to do like source it as like, oh, yeah, it's coming on a book soon,
but okay, it's coming on a book soon. And I swear there was a God dang it, what was I totally lost my train of thought.
What the hell? What was I talking about?
Straw buyer?
Oh oh oh oh, I was thinking.
I mentioned there was something in there that they mentioned in Passing that I think is getting ready to drop in that book that implies there was a pat con element to Waco, which I know has been referenced before by John Matthews. But I believe there's going to be some sort of source that, you know, heavily more implies. It's something to do with essentially and believing some sort
of outside you know, force or something. It sounds like maybe the implication is giving some sort of legal precedent to do whatever. So obviously like straw purchases that could and he was at Waco, so it's like, yeah, could you imagine it was like literally we come to fight. It was a big veagh as the dude that was like that created the legal president for Waco.
Yeah, seriously, man, No, that's that's a perfectly reasonable conclusion or speculation to make. Yeah. So the story there is that, according to John Matthews, there was intelligence coming into the FBI that the militias were going to resupply Davidians or possibly even attack the Feds, and they were worried that, you know, we've had this perimeter set up for fifty going on fifty eight days, it were susceptible to an outside attack from the militia. Got to wrap up this
operation soon. And if that was just John Matthews telling Jesse try to do that that's okay, one source, you know, random hearsay, but Richard Booth actually or no, this was on Scott Horden's like six hour Waco podcast. But Richard Booth picked up on it that this book, this is not an assault. It contains the same info that apparently the FBI was worried about the militias at the time,
so it corroborates what Matthews told try to do that. Yes, the pat con was very tied into Waco and was the reason that they moved in and stopped the standoff and decided to just go in.
All right, Well, geez, that that may especially if the angles that they were concerned about others come in that actually leads he was there, and all you need is to prove some sort of criminal element maybe they could even you know, we have these this criminal element militia moving in and all you have to do is point to something he did. And obviously if he's their asset, it's pretty easy to point to things he's done. So all right, yeah, wild, I don't know, I just never
put that together. It's kind of been swirling in my head that I'm surprised that connection hasn't been made.
But that is a that is interesting.
That is like obviously, you know, probably isn't the case, but there's an outside possibility that is the case that McVeigh.
Yeah, and Wendy Painting's done a lot of research on one of the Davidians did business with Roger Moore or something like that, so there is like that added tie.
All right, shit, Okay, I didn't know that. I actually, you know, I feel like maybe I've heard that before, but it just I guess maybe it was one of those things that now hearing in a different light, I'm like, oh, okay.
Yeah, a lot of a lot of connections. Yeah, this this really needs to be like a ten season like TV show. It is crazy story.
Well, all right, let's I guess move into some of the other updates.
I'd say probably.
The other major one that I'm forgetting something, but I think we've hit already kind of naturally hit a few of the ones we intended to. But I think the other one would be where things currently stand with Jesse's case. I know it's you know, we have he did recently. I don't think we've I guess we haven't even covered this on the show, or at least on the playlist.
So for those you know, just going through the playlofs s trying to figure out we didn't actually talk about he did you know a while back, you know, put up what a new foil lawsuit for specific you probably have a better recall of that if you want to give the specifics on that one. I think I may have done an episode on it or something, but it was I don't think it was in the playlist so or it may have been one of the morning shows. But either way, you just kind of if you could
give a breakdown for them where that is at. And then there's also movement on the I mean, I say movement, but not really an attempted movement on the on the gag order side of things. When that comes to the John Matthews pat con stuff, all the stuff that's sealed, that's kind of that A lot of us are kind of like, what the hell? But there also was a newer one that happened before this, so I gues would
probably makes sense to go in chronological order. So if we could just start with the new the previous action I guess not the last one, but the one before that, the one in reference to kind of starting a New Foyle lawsuit because essentially it had made Foyer requests something in the realm of a belief seven years prior or something along those lines, and so it's kind of like, all right, you've had your time, now I'm filing suit.
Yeah. The more recent one was filed in February twenty four and that was for all its records about McVeigh, the FBI's investigation into the mcveigh's ties to the Area Republican Army, which was these neo Nazi bank robbers hanging out at Ellaheim City Robin banks to fund a right wing revolution and probably funding the bombing. So that was one of the requests, and the other one was for
all the FBI's requests or files on Roger Moore. Jesse trying to do originally requested these in like twenty sixteen, and he didn't sue for so many years because he's fighting this other lawsuit. He was planning on filing suit when the other one wraps up, but he realizes that this other one might never wrap up, so he wanted to do it while he's capable, and that one has been dragging along. The FBI has produced literally two records
a month it's pretty pitiful. So there's going to be a lot of news in the coming months about just the FBI and what a terrible job they're doing with transparency. There. More importantly, I would say, though, is this long, fifteen year lawsuit where he originally sued for the surveillance footage of McVeigh and according to reports, John Doe two pulling the rider truck going away, it goes explodes. It would
approved the existence of John Doe two. That lawsuit is so complex but basically just spins out into the FBI gets caught line about so many things that the judge actually says, Okay, we're going to trial. Like foil lawsuits never go to trial. Usually the FBI could just swear that, oh, we don't have these records and the case will get tossed. But Jesse has all these records showing that yes, the surveillance footage exists. So the judge gets fed up and
he goes to trial. One of the people that was going to testify for trying to do was an FBI informant named Matthew John Matthews, he had blown the whistle on pat con come out two years earlier, did an article for Newsweek that didn't really show any of the juicy stuff. So he's going to lay it all out
in trying to do his trial in twenty fourteen. But the night before he's going to testify, he calls try to do and Roger Charles and changes his mind and says, according to Triniad that the FBI is threatening me, telling me I better not testify and if I do, I better have a case of the I don't remembers. That pisses off trying to do he alleges whistleblow or he alleges witness tampering. The Judge, to his eternal credit, agrees
with Trina Do that that's a serious allegation. The judge appoints a separate judge called like a special Master to investigate this one issue of witness tampering, and that's been going on for ten years now behind closed doors with
gag orders on all parties. That brings us to now where ahead of the thirtieth anniversary, trying to do motion for either the judge or the Special Masters to unseal John Matthews's depositions, which would we don't know what are in the depositions because trying to do can't talk about that, but presumably it's about all the stuff that trying to do says that he's been talking about, you know, about how it ties into Waco, how he saw McVeigh ross
Meyer hanging out in ninety four, all this incredibly damning stuff, some of the biggest scandals in the FBI's history. Trying to do asked the judge to unsteal it. And Trump's DOJ has opposed that motion. That's the big news. And not only Trump's DOJ. It's not some it's not the US Attorney in Utah that's doing this. It was the number two guy, the acting Deputy Attorney General at the time.
I think they finally appointed the permanent one got approved by the Senate, but the acting guy, yank of Roth is his name. He made an appearance or like it's under his name that they're opposing trying to Do's motion. So to me, this is like a huge scandal. It's an indictment on the whole Trump administration and all this
bullshit about JFK and the Epstein files. Well, why are you opposing trying to do like this is egregious and this is something that should be like Tucker Carlson needs to be talking about this ridiculous.
One hundred percent. I agree.
I mean I tried to elevate this as much as like key because it's one of those stories like how the fuck is everyone not talking about this? This is insane, It's a thirtieth anniversary. I mean, when you really dig into it, is just it is nuts. I mean, this is what turned my show from a libertarian theory show into a parapolitics showed. It's just it is just you find yourself spiling around and around and around and around it because it is insane and it's just like it is,
how's no one looking at this? How's no one looking this? It does feel like it get overshadowed by like the like nine to eleven or something, but it is one of those ones. Just it's like, this is pretty glaring, pretty obvious. So you said it's yakav Roth was, so he was essentially at the time, Bondie's number two is what you're so, Yep.
He's the head of the Civil Division too, which is like, you know, the whole department that fights all these civil lawsuits and foil lawsuits. So even now he's still you know, top top ten, Top five guy DJ.
Okay, so the most transparent administration got it?
Uh?
Okay on that sign. I think there was something in there. Okay, so we have Oh I did have. I have one question. This is something I've always you never really got the chance to ask and or just kind of so we this thing is gag orging, even said two of their credit and all that. But it's been you know, basically almost fifteen years that's been.
Under a gag order. Uh are you aware?
Obviously I don't know if this would be betraying the gag order if Jesse's told you or something, but I mean maybe you could say that you just know these are how these things would work. But I know even then, the special the special master concept is something that's so rare. I don't even think Jesse's even heard of it happening before.
The point being what I'm driving is like, are there like behind closed doors, you know, legal proceedings that are occurring that we don't know of, or is this just literally nothing's happening and it's just like you know what I mean, I mean, fuck are going on?
The things are happening, And all that Jesse will tell me is that the DOJ and the FBI have fought him, quote tooth and nail every step of the way. And I could only assume that means, like he wants to depose somebody in the FBI. They don't show up on the date of the deposition. Oh we got to move it off. Oh this guy he actually moved to a different department. We got to delay it more. Just all the dirty tricks in the book. That's the sense that I get.
But these are probably other things he's gagged to not be able to talk about that, Like all the undewarred actions are probably occurring.
I would hold out hope though. Actually the first I'm aware of another special Master situation that was the biggest story I ever covered at the time. This was twenty nineteen. Before I got into any of this stuff, I was like a tech reporter for a publication called Global Data Review in London. It was like the most basic, boring tech reporting you could imagine. But I stumbled across this case where this health company got hacked by a contractor who had FBI spyware. He was like an FBI contract
with spywaar and he was just a bad guy. So he hacks this company, and then he tries to blackmail the guy to get the information back, and the guy turned out to be a Jesse Trendo type character and says like, no, fuck you. So the FBI contractor gives the information to the FTC, which then opens an investigation again to this health company, and it sparks like ten
years of litigation. Eventually it goes to a special Master, which found that yes, the FBI contractor used proprietary spyware and colluded with the FTC to screw this guy over. And the special master's report was just like the most salacious thing I had ever read at the time. So these things do take time. But from my limited experience, which I guess is more than most everybody else because nobody's even heard of a special Master, it does it can produce really good things.
Okay, well that could be interesting because I mean, as you know, as I'm thinking, like what you're like, Oh, so there's likely multiple court proceedings going on behind. So like theoretically the moment that he gets UnGagged, we're probably gonna have a insane yarn of like crazy ship they did through the legal proceedings, which I mean, we already have a ton of crazy stuff.
I know.
You know, Richard wrote a great article on this a while back, essentially going into the ins and outs of the specifics of Kenneth's or of Jesse's court proceedings, which
it does. It is insane when you go through there and see some of the things that FEDS have done, you know, specifically in regards to him, like hell, even to the point to where he was finding like what essentially internal documents were saying that they literally had like institutionalized can Kenneth or Jesse trying to do's and don'ts through what's his face?
Uh, the fast and furious.
Guy, the not Garland, but the other attorney general, the black guy Holder Holder. Yes, in my mind too, yeah, Air Colder, I believe, yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, uh there's a question there. But yeah, and just yeah, I forgot where I was going with that because then I'm just trying to remember what the hell who the Eric Holder's name was. But yeah, anyways, the point being is, yeah,
they you know, they institutionalize it to that degree. So I just can only imagine the revelations we will have now, I guess, I guess one last question then maybe if there's another updates you can think of that would be worthwhile bringing up. I guess just do you have any sort of idea? Obviously, Jesse is getting older in age. I was just thinking about this today, and I have noticed it seems like there's a stirring of the of the Jesse right now. I've noticed him. He's re entered
the public eye. So it just feels like, either to me, one of two things happens is happening. Either he knows something's going on, or he's or he thinks he can make something happen, so he's trying to shake up some waves, or he might be getting damn near ready to say fuck it and like just I don't know, do some
cowboys stuff. I So my only point is like, are you aware of like in situations with gag orders like you gotta think theoretically, could just I could just tell you and then just essentially you pull a David Paul Hammer and go like tell everybody else but just say wink wink kind of whatever type deal, Like do you
know like it? What would be the any sort of consequences for something like that, because it would be I would assume he would have the very least have this stuff written down somewhere for the moment that he's gone. That the way this information doesn't just disappear into the wind.
Yeah, my guess is that he has kill switches. But he's a he's a careful guy. I don't think he's he's going rogue at all. I mean, he's got to like this is a guy that could have been, you know, a federal judge, like highly successful lawyer. He's towing a fine line for sure, but I think he's doing it properly. And you know, he talked on Scott Horden's show like JD Cash. His death was unexpected Roger Charles, I mean I interviewed Roger Charles in February of twenty two and
he died like three weeks later. I was worried that, oh shit, did I have like COVID and I accidentally give it to him? Like no, I guess nobody really saw that coming, even though he had been kind of spiral going downhill like a long term. So I think Jesse, Jesse just wants to talk and get this news out, you know, while while he can, just in case something happens. So that's what he told Scott and I you know, I think that's the truth.
Yeah, but way, I'm not at all concerned about him. He's he seems pretty spry, and I think he's probably go at least a decade left his anger.
His anger will continue to carry him on for another twenty years.
Dude, Well, all right, Ken, is there anything else you feel like my audion should be aware of? I guess, you know, bear in mind, I think the last time I've even done well, no, I had the Jonathan Franklin episode that we did, so we had a little bit I guess catching up on some stuff. But I guess, is there anything you think of in the realms as so far as updates?
I might be missing something.
I know there was an article about the John Ashcroft thing that covered the Morning Show, So I don't know to what recall you have of that, or if like that's even really too worth going into. That was pretty interesting revelations that was very in the weeds, though, something specific when it came to Terry Nichols and I guess essentially keeping him quiet and how he seems like he may have avoided the death penalty. But anyways, it's just an any anything in the realm of updates new stuff.
Otherwise you can let people know where to find you. I know you have an upcoming book that you think you're working on, so I'm glad to see that. In hell, I know you have another book like this one kind of fell into your lap. You've always kicked around the idea of doing like a kind of an infiltration of the right wing book, so hell, this will be This kind of works out perfectly if you're a perfect little launching point. Obviously this is going to be more catchy
than the other one. I'll be honest, I'm more interested in the other one. But so far as like general public, let's be real, Trump assassination Book's probably going to do more numbers, let's be real.
But anyways, go ahead.
Yeah, the Trump, the Trump shooting, what the investigations missed, and why it matters. I think I'm an ode to Roger Charles Oklahoma. That's like the working title Roger's book was Oklahoma City, What the investigation miss and live matters? So hopefully I'll get that done by Like Junior July, the progress is progress is happening, much like Jesse's lawsuit.
It's slow and you're not seeing anything, but hopefully soon we'll have something big on that and yeah, Headline USA dot com the best conservative news site in the country. Check it out.
Hell yeah, appreciate you coming on.
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Thanks for joining us, Ken, We'll be sure to have you on again sometime soon. I've definitely to promote the book or something. But yeah, with that, we're gonna go and get out of here.
See you soon. Bye bye bye