NWJ 495- Remembering Waco w/Austin Picard

So this is also kind of a special moment in a sense, I think for me and Austin because how we how we met is a he did a big Ruby Ridge episode and that's how we became familiarized with

each other. I've always been kind of more like Ben and a known for my coverage in local city bombing, and the two things that connects those together is obviously Waco, and that's a you know, super important ties into the Open Sea bombing, and I know there's gonna be a lot of people probably having eyes on me and Austin's channel here in the next few days, so I figured it was good to kind of let you guys know what led up to it, and also take a take

a moment to remember all the people who lives were lost in that awful tragedy and remind people not to trust the leviathan that is our government. I mean, that's kind of the ongoing through line of all times with me and Austin shows. But with that, before we get into it, I do want to take a second to pay the bills. Obviously, you guys can fast forward, no big whoop if obviously if it's your premiering right now,

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is kind of weird. This is like the the meeting of the minds in a sense. Not that you're like the Ruby Ridge guy. You've kind of been like all over the place I've but you've been more of a generalist and honestly much more honestly at the same time having a depth more knowledge. You're more the researcher. I usually flout you as in our dynamic duo, as being the researcher with the side of podcaster, and I'm the podcaster with the side of researcher. So that's kind of

the dynamic between the two of us. I think. I mean, I do a little bit my own research, but I'm much more much more honed in on something like this, you know, thing like Oklahoma City bombing. You you're all of a place, and so I know you started out with things like Ruby Ridge, that's where you cut your teeth. So we're backing up a little bit. I know you're you're you're onto the Finders and Dutroux and all stuff like that. But me and you, we're taking it back to basics.

the start. I think that's the best way to listen to this channel because it is cool to see and it's great. I think it's like, honestly, if you're a perspective a conspiracy theorist out there, that's the way you should start, Like, you should start with Austin's the Underclass

Podcast channel or the Underclass Podcast. Start from the beginning because it literally is like thirty minute episodes on Zionism, thirty minute episode nine to eleven, thirty minute episode on Waco, Like it's like all the basics, so it's like literally basic building blocks, and then you know shorter episodes two, so little bite size things, you know, like twenty to forty minutes long, and then as time went on they became longer and longer and more depth. And it's great.

Now we've gone to the point where you're tackling like Kinkora trafficking scandal on like a whole episode, and doing and doing five hour podcasts on like you know, your strings of murders from decades ago. So I think it's great though seeing it from the beginning. So but we're going back to the beginning, but with a new flair, with with the with the edge that me and you have gained from a from a long time in in this uh, in this realm.

and looking back on it now reflecting it. Of course, hindsight is twenty in certain ways as always, and so it's it's like I would have done it much differently, but hey, I still find value in it. It's it's a struggle actually going back and listening to my presentation I feel, but hey, okay, it shows growth. That's how you have to embrace.

or something. So yeah, I get you, but it is it is rough looking back, you know, especially when you're like, I've improved this, I've tightened up that, and you're like, I'm listening to the old audio the awful Like a lot of the isms that I've gotten, I feel like I've straightened out. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm still not. I still have a lot of flaws, if any, when it comes to public speaking, But by God have I have I smoothed out a lot of them over

time when you look back. But even still people seem to like that. So uh that though, I will say there's a little there's some news coming out soon for those who like who like that series. I mean, there'll be more to come. I'll let you know after because it won't be on my channel, but somebody else there's gonna be something very very very very very similar, So

keep an eye out for that. I'll obviously promote that when that's a thing, just because even though it's not gonna be something that I personally gain from because it won't be on my channel, I think it'll be a great useful thing for people to be able to learn about the Oklahoma City bombing. But with that, Austin, let's get into it, dude, let's start out with I think the best way to kind of tackle this is to kind

of start with characters. Although I mean, obviously there are other characters like FBI negotiators and this guy and that guy, but and like we could go into each one of the little bios and we kind of will maybe as we go, But I really think that only there's only two bios in my opinion, that really matter, like a ton of ton, like that's David Koresh and then and then in a collective sense, the Davidian you know, in general, like the the I guess, and that would almost be

more of like the belief system really, So those are the two things I think you kind of wrap your head around before you start digging into this. So I think, probably, I guess David probably the best place to start. So just kind of give me a breakdown of who this guy is. I mean, if you want, we can start all the way from the beginning with him. I guess let's just let's just jump right into Korsh. We'll probably do a Dawn thirty minutes on just Koresh himself, but

let's let's go ahead and go. Let's go start with Koresh so give me kind of a breakdown on who he is and what he's about. And then that way, when whenever we start getting to the chronological sequence of events here, we kind of have an idea of who the person we're dealing with as they go go on.

I think it's more palatable as well. And but the Branch Davidians, they originated in nineteen fifty five from a schism in the Shepherd's Rod or the Rod or the Davidians, which were this offshoot of the Seventh day Adventist Church, right the worldwide Seventh day Adventist Church and and the Shepherd's Rod or the Davidians were founded in nineteen twenty nine by Victor Hotef, and this man was allegedly the president and prophet after he was excommunicated from the Seventh

day Adventist for promoting heretical doctrines. Apparently, and so, according to the Christian Research Institute, the group was headquartered at a property known as Mount Carmel Center near Waco, Texas, and reached its peak in the early nineteen fifties with thousands of adherents before splintering into various factions after Hotef's

death in nineteen fifty five. And so, at the core of his ideology and the foundation of the Davidian's belief was this imminent prophecy of an apocalypse involving the second coming of Jesus Christ and the defeat of the evil armies of Babylon. So you instantly have this doomsday aspect of this was very much in vogue at the time.

Right consider nineteen fifty five, Like, does that not feel like prime mk ultra territory as far as I'm considered in the sort of the sense of the philosophical occultic occultist underground, Like, it's very important and interesting to at least recognize the timing because much of this begins to surface. Uh, you know, in this underlying subculture that really you know, wasn't quite recognized at such a public level and definitely was not as influential in any way h culturally as

much as it became. And so I will say it does make sense in a Cold War sense too, because it was like peak Cold War era, because it was like very much just like, oh no, they're gonna bomb us in a moment. The apocalypse was. It was very much an apocalyptic mindset at that time. I mean, hell, that's a that's a through line between all these I mean you have chaos you I mean like you have like a with the I didn't even mean SI guess I'm at Manson.

And so the center itself named Mount Carmel after a mountain in Israel mentioned in Joshua nineteen twenty six in the Old Testament, so instantly you know this is directly connected to fundamentally it becomes a sort of a sort of nationalist Zionism in a way like Christian Zionism, vein that it very much taps into it at the least, which was becoming prominent in the mindset of like this the right wing militia types of the day, which of course this is more in line with consider just the

after effects and consequences later on, obviously, because this is really in its infancy in fifty five, but still by fifty nine, Victor's widow, Florence Hotef, she announced that the

expected armageddon was about to take place. But after the failure of this prophecy, control of Mount Carmel Center would fall to Benjamin Rodin, who was the founder of the Branch Davidians Seventh Day Adventist association known as Branch Davidians, so he would be the one to promote this different doctrinal belief system uh than that of the original Davidian organization. And it was upon his death that Lois Rodin his

widow would take control of the center. So it's like this is this is very interesting as passing through through these right channels and and kind of making its way into the hands of Vernon Wayne Hall, who would later become David Koresh, which that allot. It's like he's he's taking Hey, man, I understand, I understand the notion. Right,

you go on the uh the pilgrimage. Okay, he returned embracing an entirely new identity, which, to be clear for the audience, I don't think I mean, maybe I missed it, but I don't think he laid it out explicitly. He did visit Israel, so.

through the math. She's old. So this is weird. He's probably in what his twenties, early thirties, I think around this time. I'm not exactly sure how old he is, but would be my guest, maybe late twenties and I mean maybe mid to late thirties actually, And now I think about it, I'm not sure. Question either way.

originally raised by his grandparents. But yeah, very very I would I read about how he had apparently been abused allegedly as well, his mother had brought in some strange man into the house and he had been physically violent, and and so there were a lot of implications and allegations that he would he had been severely abused when he was a child, So that alone, you know, it doesn't again draw parallels with a Manson type unfortunately, because of that statistic level.

a good deal older. So it is, it is weird. It always seems to be these young, weird older ladies that groom these young men to do these So I just it's just it's it's just it's a it's a common through line. Obviously this made me nothing here, but it is weird that we have this guy who, you know, he's kind of a a what's the word, like, he's he inspires passion among people and you know charismatic. That's where a charismatic guy being groomed by an older lady.

Like I mean, it's it's yeah, I don't know, you just kind of can see. And then you see how he approaches sex to is described approach sext with other people too. It's like, I mean, he's having sex with older you know what he's claiming. Supposedly, he's just doing it to create children. I don't know, if you may a very real might just be that way. So it's like, I don't know, there's just weirdness here, but go on.

we'll get into too some of those details. But yeah, it's again this is with Koresh himself, you know, just kind of recognizing these strange As far as his extensive backstory, you know, first of all, you have Vernon Wayne Howell choosing David in order to include himself and the lineage linking him directly to the biblical king David, from who the New Savior would descend, also connected to the throne of David which Jesus would occupy after he returned, and

the final judgment, and so there was basically the last name Koresh was. It has much more of a backstory. Vernon chose Koresh because it is the biblical name of Cyrus the Great. For his first heavenly insight, Vernon was reminded of Cyrus, King of Persia, mentioned prominently in Isaiah

forty five. Babylon conquered Israel in five eighty six BC and took many Jews into captivity, But when Cyrus and his Persian army defeated the Babylonians forty seven years later, they freed the Jews, returned them to their homeland, and with the Persian king's own money, rebuilt the temple there. Cyrus is described in Isaiah as a messiah of God, meaning one appointed by the Lord to provide a special service. Several messiahs are mentioned in the Bible, but Cyrus is

the only gentile so designated. So it's Vernon hell. He's informed that he was this name Cyrus, whose name in Hebrew is Koresh, and Vernon must take that as his name. Like his biblical namesake David, Koresh would rescue the righteous from Babylon, so that was his prophecy and uh and so obviously it's it's very much you know, it's a

strange hearkening back to like this very very uh. It may maybe you would say kabalistic psychological theological framework, you know, you know, to some extent at the very least.

and apparently it gets very interesting. But first of all, it's the credibility at the very least, like just mentioning David Koresh and the member Stephen Schneider, who they had been traveling the world, as we had mentioned, talking to various religious leaders, and they would tell respective members that they were only trying to learn what the Bible actually means.

Various biblical scholars, theological experts, priests, and rabbis from all over the world had been flying into Waco, Texas, only to visit Mount Carmel and study David's teachings of something he called the Seven Seals, right and which that alone, the seven Seals. They sound fascinated, but the story, uh

would would always be the same. Each one of them would claim that David came to their seminary school or their synagogue and sat down with them only to teach them more about the Bible within an hour than they had learned in the past two or three years at

their school or house of study. So he had something, he had something going on psychologically at a certain point where man I heard it put into terms of after after Manson went to I forget the name of the prison, not the not the institution, not the psychiatric institution in in California. I'm trying to remember, but either way, they said that once he he came out of that facility, he he had he had developed an entirely different set of skills, and he basically the controller, the control, the

essentially the controller. I forget the terms they put it in like the controlled became the controller something like that. And it was basically considering the idea of he was he was trained with the sophisticated methods of mind control, that he was basically given these set of techniques that he would be able to employ himself through these utilizing these specific you know, psychedelic compounds, various drugs right essentially, Oh my god, I'd read about this individual. We'll get

into it later. It's it's it's fascinating stuff because they're talking about.

a young age and stuff like that. So, I mean, I know, then you said, then they say, do you do you remember the specifically offhand? Uh, the the the sources of the ones claiming that he seemed kind of just not that smart when he was there. I mean, it was just just kind of the the just kind of the general feeling or what.

wrote In and Vernon. How then then you have kind of, uh, you know, you had this really kind of like a divide fracturing between the members where they they did not embrace this new way and new outlook and perspective of the group. And so that was essentially how it was described that this was in nineteen eighty one that he had first entered Mount Carmel and had first come around

the group itself. Then this is when they were describing him as not appearing to be that bright when he first came around, even though he had previously been a carpenter and was good at fixing things, but also had a stutter and lacked any social skills. Certainly not expected to possess leadership qualities. This is how he was described.

So this is when he goes on a pilgrimage to Israel, returns claiming to have been shown a new, deeper knowledge of the scripture, granting him the understanding and ability to interpret and teach the Seven Seals, and had acquired depth of knowledge, including new gifts he did not previously possess. So that's based on are you.

did was read the Bible. So it's very very possible that, I mean, something led him to the group in the

first place. I'm not exactly sure what that that might have been, but you know, there are kind of kind of alternative theories obviously to to to that, but still as the official narrative goes, and and the the you know, as far as just the corroborated background of the group itself and the members and and then their perspective on Vernon Howell and David Koresh, this is how the story goes, and so it's again according to to other members of the group, David would would issue a challenge to people

after returning, and he would say, this book is sealed with seven seals. No man can reveal it. I wonder if you might let me show you maybe I can reveal it. And then he would he would basically challenge these staunch religious people who would grow upset by this and typically say things like are you saying you are Christ? Or are you saying you are the Lamb? And he would he would respond, no, I'm not saying any of that. I'm just saying, let me show you the seven seals.

And all I wanted after being exposed to this story was to sit down with David Koresh and have present

to me the seven seals. Honestly, like it really, it really did make me feel like, what is happening if to attract so many different experts around the world, theological experts, I mean considered within you know, their field of interest, and and along with you know, spiritual leaders all over the world and all different walks of faith that were coming specifically to Waco, Texas, to a to a tiny compound with David Koresh Vernon Wayne Howell to have him

present them these seven Seals over the course of like a couple of weeks. Sometimes I forget how long it would it would officially take, but but yes it was. Uh. That alone is very fascinating, you know, just that appeal that that he did gain over time and and utilizing this presentation of the Seven Seals.

the the siege. Uh, he claimed that David Koresh one time he would he jumped on stage in his introduction to the Seven Seals, teaching to a new large group and lifted up the Bible and said a lot of people look at this as two pieces of cow leather and a bunch of pages in between, and some and some people spend their whole lives trying to figure out what this book says, what this book means, And he held it up to his forehead and he said, I

see this book panoramically from Genesis to Revelation, as if it is happening before me right now as I'm speaking to you. And Thibodeau said his immediate internal reaction was like, yeah, all right, man, like that's that's obviously a tall tale. But then over the course of the next two weeks, really within around three nights, two or three nights, Thibodeaux claimed to be convinced that David Koresh really did see the scripture in this way, and apparently six months before

the raid took place. I always found this story strange that that David Tibbert would tell that he was sh up shingling a roof of the larger house when David Koresh looked at him and said, Thibodeau, what are you going to do six months from now when there are tanks running up and down the Double E Ranch road. And he looked at him and said, David, I don't care what your message is. This is America. They're never

going to bring tanks on this property. He reportedly did the same thing with Kathy Schroeder, another member, when he looked at her and he said, Kathy, what are you going to He goes, Kathy, what are you going to do when helicopters are buzzing this building? And she says, David, there's never going to be helicopters on this property. So those two like specifically occur, you know, and the demographic that was attracted to this ideology obviously, you know, I was,

I was very like struck by the fact. Wh right, No, it seemed more like, yeah, like it. I honestly, it seemed strangely like in a way. Obviously the racial dynamic is much different with Jonestown, but still you can kind of make some sort of strange connection there because you have but but yet they're more I hate to say civilized, but I mean that that is a reality in regard to.

great example. You know, he's he's he's a black guy who was a Harvard Law School graduate and served as Mount Carmel's resident attorney and was apparently third in command or second or third behind or equal to Steve Schneider, and was he was the first to call nine one one the day of February twenty eighth from the raid uh began and it began to ensue, and and he was he was talking about the women and children right, calling it off for that risk. But yeah, it's really

before we get into much of that. I should bring it back to kind of a little bit more of like explaining the unorthodox way of life embraced by the members of the group.

uh you know, you know, underage wives. I guess you could say, which that plays a part, you know, particularly in how they're are colored in the public, in the the view of the public, and how it kind of paints it in people's some heads too, in a sense of a legally, I guess you could almost say, I guess maybe not even that's not even the right word I'm looking for. But it's like to some people, I

think they see it or for justifying the situation. A lot of people see this as is somehow this builds into the line of justification to reach the ultimate crescendo of this. Say so I'm like, oh, well he had childwives, and it's like, well, does that mean you should kill him in his child lives? Like, I don't know, I mean, maybe it was just him. You might have some sort of argument here, but but when when you kill the

victims too, it's a different story. So yeah, if you're supposedly sticking up for some you know, victims here, well, I mean maybe trying not to kill the victims as well. But anyways, it passed it enough to you to tell us a little bit more about just kind of how the Davidians, uh, how they went about, how they behaved, what kind of weird weird things that we should know.

And these are a lot of these things are things we already know that were you know, thrown around in the media to paint them in a negative light.

in the Book of Revelation. And in addition to being the group's spiritual leader, he assumed the burden of sex for the male Davidians, meaning that he and only he was allowed to sleep with female members, obviously, and it didn't stop there either, when Koresh took multiple wives himself, practicing polygamy even as young as fourteen years old. And I heard allegations of twelve, but nothing ever corroborated enough to kind of like make that concrete judgment. But this

was technically under Texas law. It was technically legal as far as the fourteen year old, which is terrible to say because obviously this is blatantly immoral in my mind. But you know these.

But that's getting ahead of ourselves. So back to where we were with the with all the child sex or all the child wives and stuff.

an article for Reason Magazine, David Thibodeau says, as far as the sexuality is concerned, David didn't have sex just to have sex. He always had a goal, a focus, and that was to have kids. He wanted to have as many kids as possible. A lot of people forget that, that's just they just say, there's this guy all these stupid people followed him, and he just wanted to have sex, and that was it. I can think of one hundred

million better ways to do it. A lot of people have a wife and then mistresses, and they hide it and cover it up. David was very open about what he was doing because he believed it was a scriptural thing. This is according to Thibodeaux, who is justifying it in these terms, and it was a very complicated thing. But the plan all fit together. He says, I never understood how so many women could live together under those circumstances.

It's a mystery of God. Let me tell you, how could all these guys hang out, let that happen and not do anything. Then he's asked by the reason journalist conducting the interview, didn't the guys get upset? You were single? But for the other guys it was their wives crush was sleeping with. And Thibodeau says, of course, Steve Schnyder was very upset often about it. But at the same time, he had spent six months trying to rip David apart to prove him wrong before he joined the group, So

did Paul Fada. They worked together trying to prove the message wrong. They couldn't do it, so they said he has the truth. So at that point they fell into line David Thibodeau's asked, they believed it was the message of God, that it was for this higher purpose, and that they were in the inner circle of the anointed. One think about that they would sacrifice everything to be with this person and to have some part in the

fulfillment of this eternal plan. That something the world wouldn't understand. They might be wiped out for it, but eternally they will have great position. It's a pretty amazing dynamic. They believed that Koresh was the next spirit Messiah, the prophet, who would come to fulfill this part of the truth. They would stand with him and come back to set

up the kingdom here on earth. Thibodeau was given the opportunity to explain these beliefs a bit more, and he was interviewed in the Dallas Observer, and he says the media has gotten lots of things wrong. He never considered himself a Branch Davidian. He says, the first time he ever heard that term was on TV, which I found strange. He also never considered Koresh the messiah. Thibodeau says he believed Koresh was a prophet, but the people in the

compound weren't worshiping Koresh. He considered Koresh a friend, but he wasn't blind to his flaws. Koresh was married to several women, some obviously very young. Husbands and fathers gave away their wives and daughters to be with him. Who would father twelve children with his wives. Koresh certainly was guilty of something, right, I mean, it seems he was either, as Thibodeau says here, a polygamist, or guilty of statutory rape. Probably both depends on how you look at it. You

have to look at it the legality, Thibodeau says. The bottom line is, at the time, and I don't know what the law is now, a marriage with parental consent was fourteen, and that doesn't make it right at all, he says, But but that was his that was his

vision and perspective. As being a member of the group, you know, it's it's very strange, but it's something that obviously you have a little bit more detail on and you understand at least the justification that was being kind of portrayed to members of the.

too early. But anyways, speaking of justifications, I mean that he I mean, obviously we've kind of talked about David Koresh, the the the da Vidians and kind of their beliefs and the things he was you know, obviously the polygamy,

the the child wives. But as we as we've kind of said those were legal, so those aren't I mean, I guess now then you can say, oh, you know, it's kind of the the old I forget the mobster, but the one they took down for tax tax evasion, and so it's it's kind of the idea of like, well maybe the idea here is like, well, you know, if you want to go off those things, well we got to find a crime uh, and so the crime here was, if I recall quickly, something along the lines

of weapons, because they were obviously we're done with the ATF, so we have believe the the The claim was something like they may have been able to been manufacturing weapons into automatic and essentially illegal in some form or another. Now I will say on this specific thing, I believe in a I think this is gonna be I'm gonna mess up her name, but the book is Blowback, and her person name is Margaret. I can whatever anyways she

there's gonna be book coming out soon. I want to say, there's gonna be something more in there that's gonna tie in pat con to that. So anyway, it's point beings I think there might be more to the pretense coming soon to some revealed information. But either way, that the pretense we were given, you know, before this, before this new information might be coming in an upcoming book, is that it was it was it was the guns. So it was it was the guns. And this is the

kind of flimsy start of it. So with that, I guess we should probably go into a chronological I mean, I guess the best place to probably start to be the before the actual so the the you know, now, as I mentioned, you know that now they're looking, they're trying to hem somebody up. Now the the justification you're being guns so they do end up sending. I mean, if you want to start before this, feel free to

let me know. But obviously, probably I think probably the best in my opinion, maybe one of the better spots spots to start obviously would be where they start throwing in a and you kind of down the road some FEDS that move in type deal, having undercover feds kind of keep an eye on the group and making friends. I mean, that might be the better place to start. If you have this other spot you'd rather start, you think it's a better place to you let me know, but go ahead, floors yours.

That's what I intended to say. But February twenty eight to ninety three, just six months after the siege, that's when the eighty agents from the BATF planned the sudden daylight raid in order to serve the search warrant for the compound as well as the arrest warrant for Koresh four,

potentially violating federal firearms regulations. That was the motivation. Of course, the search warrant was obtained due to suspicion of modifying the weapons to have automatic fire capability because of a claim that Koresh had purchased these kits with M sixteen lower receiver parts and the ATF allegations were that David could have been combining M sixteen trigger components with a modified AR fifteen lower receiver, which is, according to ATF regulations,

constructive posi ession of an unregistered machine gun without paying the two hundred dollars tax for legality. It's fucking ruby Ridge man, you know what I'm saying, And like bullshit two hundred.

how that ties in the FBI. So I think what I'm referencing to is pat Con type stuff, which pat Con is kind of, you know, the fed connective tissue between you know, all these probably really going all the way back to like Waco, maybe even before maybe me and Ruby Ridge possibly, uh you know, and then all the way up to like fast and Furious Obama era. So yeah, so that's a but that's what I'm referencing to.

It looks like there there are lots of implications that there were pat Con elements to Waco, do Ruby Ridge. So yeah, I mean these are these are from statements from yeah, but go.

the internet from your foil suits with the FBI. He tells Trinidoo, you have all the pieces, but you just haven't put them together. And Trinidu said, what do you mean? And he said, well, you just don't see the picture. And so he came to see him and directed him to Newsweek magazine and to some other reporters. He had been one of the top undercover operatives for the FBI and Pat Cohn for almost ten years. He had infiltrated some twenty three groups. He started out believing that it

was the right thing. He wasn't you know. So many of these informants are people who are caught in the act of committing a crime and are forced to go undercover for the FBI. He did it voluntarily because he thought these hate groups, what they described to him as hate groups, were dangerous. In hindsight, he said, looking back

on it, he sees now that the agenda. The agenda was to infiltrate and incite the militia movement, the right wing Christian movement to violence, so that the Justice Department could crush them. He said that Ruby Ridge was a pat Con operation. He said that Waco was a pat Con operation. He believed that Oklahoma City was, but he wasn't involved in it. But he did say that other members of the pat Con group were involved in the Oklahoma City bombing. Like that is just so crazy, right.

of their name right now? Uh?

one or whatever. But essentially Don Jered in the kind of like a passing comment essentially confirmed that, yes, the AAR was the front of some sort And you're like, WHOA So obviously, I mean, I don't know who obviously if I had to guess, Uh, probably McCarthy out of the group, if I had to guess. But I mean, really, it's like any one of those people could have been

an informant. But anyways, I digress just I mean, obviously we could get lost in all the you know, the pointing, all the different glowing, the glowing nodes.

as well. You know, it's it's it's interesting because that began in ninety two when the ATF became concerned over these reports of automatic gunfire allegedly coming from the Mount Carmel Center, which really raised a lot of red flags from me, Like that was truly, what are you you?

Truly it almost seemed like the Randy Weaver justification. Oh, he had a pissy neighbor who fucking hated him and wrote all these crazy letters saying he was going to assassinate and put you know, these these authorities and officials in the government and the pope or some shit and it, which is just crazy and and but you know, on a man reflecting back, and this is of course just

kind of a gut reaction to it. It kind of glows in general, and it smells very, very at the very least, like something worth prying into at a deeper level. And because but again, this is just kind of an inclination that I have just from from here.

am saying that I will say that reflecting back. Yeah, I'm beginning to view this entirely just much differently that I feel like this could potentially be a much more of a layered operation than I had, you know, yeah, just considered, you know previously. But so anyway, the point being here is that you have this this strange, you know, report of gunfire automatic gunfire coming from the Center, which launched the original investigation in ninety two by the ATF.

Now consider the fact that obviously, you know, the ATF, they are very much looking for a press opportunity at this moment. Right and during the congressional inquiry following the ATF siege of the Branch Davidian Complex, Henry Ruth, one of the three independent reviewers from the US Treasury Department, he had testified that the ATF needed good publicity with

its appropriations hearings a week away. A successful raid this size would produce major positive headlines to counter the ATF's reputation as a rogue agency whose debacles blackened the reputations of other agencies, and it would scare the public enough about fringe groups to create political pressure on Congress to increase its budget. So you also have to consider, obviously,

the new incoming administration. Apparently this operation had had basically already been staged in many ways prior to the Clinton's taking office and assuming office, But the ATF was vying for funding at the time as well, and so they're looking for press opportunities to prove their their worth. And the siege of the Branch Davidian complex I think accomplished again layered objectives that were very very necessary at the time, and the timing of it as well was very I

think strategic. But we'll get into like a small wrinkle at the end of the conversation. I think it's very worthwhile. But anyway, so you have again right, remember the fact the constructive possession of the unregistered machine gun without paying the tax, the two hundred dollars tax for legality, and also none of that being proven. And the Davidians were obviously known for partly supporting themselves by trading at gun shows,

always having the relevant paperwork. Even one of the members, Paul Fada, was a licensed federal firearms dealer operating a retail gun business called the mag Bag. So it's like this, this was a known lucrative avenue of right of profit from the group itself and the branch Davidians. So it's in no way strange for the time either in the area either you know what I mean. And so considering those two things, you.

drug component there. I think it had something to do with the no NAC no knock side of it, doesn't it at the raid to justify a raid because like, oh, you can say they had drugs, so theoretically they could be flushing some shit or something.

being played here. Because Aguilera and Agent Skinner visited one of the Branch Davidians gun dealers, Henry McMahon, who tried to get them to talk to Koresh on the phone. Koresh offered to let ATF inspect the Branch Davidians as far as their weapons and paperwork, and even asked to speak to Agent Aguilera, but he declined, and so the Waco Tribune Herald reported the sheriff harwell, he explained that regarding law enforcement talking with Koresh, just go out there

and talk to them. What's wrong with notify them. That's what he's telling the authorities, and that's the sheriff, right, And instead the ATF would use the affidavit filed by Special Agent David Aguilera to obtain the warrants that led to the Waco siege, even admitting in the affidavit that neither the noise complaints nor the items ordered were necessarily illegal, which is another part of this that very much proves the fact that this was a violation, you know, of

the rights of the Davidians in the first place, and entirely unjustified.

game like we thought we could. All Right, we'll kind of throw a few vague sort of implications of legal things, you know what I mean, Because I mean this is kind of a hot pods of different things thrown together, no real legal pretense at all that gives it there's any good, any credibility, you know, this is it's pretty pathetic, which but I mean not to I mean, I guess maybe that could really be all there is, but just makes you feel like there's something else, which the implication

would be something in connection to an informant of some sort, you know what I mean. Like that's like like, is there some sort of element in there, some sort of informant that introduced a criminal element And then now you're like, oh crap, something about this you don't feel you can't disclose now, and that's why you didn't. But it was always intended on that being the case. And then obviously

it wanted to do a very different way. I don't know, you know, obviously maybe now it looks improper to be like, oh, yeah, this guy and you're like, oh, well, you kind of kill them all, So maybe don't say this guy was really an informant the whole time or whatever.

principally obviously you know, the consequential outcome. The result alone is the ultimate example of what your government is capable of, and the breach and violation of fundamental basic rights and

human individual sovereignty, I mean, in every way. So none of that changes, but there are definitely additional layers that we should be willing to acknowledge and consider as at least being plausible or potentially viable, or just being complete and total nonsense, but at least acknowledging the fact that the theory exists. I mean, it's important, but the level

of detail, that's what gives me pause. So but before we get into any of that, I think it's it's important to continue on with laying out really the injustice

that we're witnessing. It took place here, and because again none of this was necessarily illegal, and the Davidians were known for being very cordial with everyone in the surrounding community, seemingly held in high regard by most people, including the local sheriff, which I had mentioned before, and they were known for having daily devotionals studying the scripture for over eight hours at a time, and by every account they barely even drank, except for at most a couple of

beers at a get together every few months, but no

more than three, said former member David Thibodeau. But before the ATF could follow through with the search warrant, they needed to prove an operational drug nexus Jose in order to obtain military assets for the raid that would crucial aspect of the drug nexus, So the ATF's investigation primarily focused on firearms up until this point, but in a nineteen ninety nine report to the Secretary of Defense, the Attorney General and the Secretary of the Treasury titled Military

Assistants provided a branch Davidian incident, and the ATF made a claim that Koresh was possibly operating a methamphetamine lab, requesting assistance from the DEA in the United States Department of Defense, citing a drug connection based on a recent delivery to the compound of chemicals, instruments, and glassware, as well as National Guard overflights thermal images showing a supposed hot spot inside the compound, possibly indicating a methan fetamine laboratory,

that's what they're claiming.

Yeah yeah, yeah, here we go, here we go. Because they after the trial basically because there were a few conspirator co conspirators with Koresh that were on trial for the murder of this guy, and it was all basically Lois Rodin died right the woman that had groomed David Koresh, and she died in November of eighty six, and so a probate of her estate. In January eighty seven, Hawell attempted to gain control of Mount Carmel Center by force. So George Roden had dug up the casket. It sounds

like they're doing occult rituals or some shit. Dude, They're these digging up bodies. It's so crazy. So the Sun George Roden digs up the casket of Anna Hughes from the Davidian Cemetery and had challenged how David Koresh Vernon Wayne Howe to a resurrection contest to prove who was the rightful heir to the leadership. So this is the funniest thing, ever, because how I'm and uh correct for that.

That's what they'd say that he was he was cooking meth out there, he was tripping, and that he was just yeah, tweaking his balls out.

of Mount Carmel at gunpoint. So that's how all of this began, and Howl and his group relocated to none other than Palestine, Texas anyway. So it's crazy because after he digs up George Roden digs up the casket of Vanna Hughes from the Davidian Cemetery and challenges Vernon Howell to this to this resurrection contest, Hal went to the police and claims that Rodin was guilty of corpse abuse, how fucking funny. But the county prosecutors refused to file

charges without proof. So this is when he takes it upon himself to get the evidence required. So this is where I start to go, was this really happening? George? And get set the fuck up? I mean, I don't know who.

Rodin had been wounded. So we have Sheriff Harwell, he gets Howl on the phone, who tells him and then obviously tells Vernon Hall to stop shooting and to surrender. Howl and his companions, dubbed the Rodinville eight by the media. We're tried for attempted murder. On April twelfth, nineteen eighty eight. Seven were acquitted and the jury hung on Hal's verdict. The county prosecutors did not press the case further. It sounds very weird, right, like this guy straight up murdered him.

And so even with all the effort to bring the casket to court, the standing judge refused to use it as evidence for the case, and Judge Herman Fitz ruled that the courtroom is no place for a casket. When defense attorney Gary Kocher requested it be used as evidence for the case, eight men, including six of the defendants, forced to carry the casket away from the courthouse and down the street to a van awaiting the body. In response to questions about the body, Rodin admitted to attempting

to resurrect Hughes on three occasions. So that wasn't an acknowledgement.

foul language. So he's, yeah, charged with contemptive court. So he threatened the Texas court with sexually transmitted diseases if the court ruled in Howell's favor. Yeah, So alongside these charges, Rodin was jailed for six months for legal motions he filed with explicit language. He faced ninety days in jail for living on the property after being ordered to neither live on the property nor call himself the leader of

the religious group in the seventy nine case. And soon after the trial, several of How's followers moved from their headquarters in Palestine, Texas, back to Mount Carmel in the compound. And it was in mid eighty nine when Rodin used an axe to kill a Davidian named Wayman Dale eight Yeah a dare Yeah, yeah, who visited him to discuss Adair's alleged vision of being God's chosen Messiah. Hummm, he was found a bunch.

up a picture of George Roden, George Buchanan Rodin. He uh, he doesn't look quite like I. I I definitely don't see him as like just some tweaker out there, you know, George R. O. D e In.

basically a very possible task. But anyway, so you also have to understand that you know, understanding like really just the reality of I was mentioning how the local sheriff and and all the just locals surrounding the branch Davidians.

They were claiming that, right, they were all effectively cordial and essentially you know, very well to do and and you know, I would say, just functional members of society at the time, right, and as far as the local community was concerned, they weren't really considered by the local community to be like these outsiders and weird psychos or at least to any real extent. That wasn't the narrative

surrounding them in any way. But you know, beyond that, obviously you had this this strange what we had left off kind of spotlighting was the reality of the the ATF claim of the methamphetamine laboratory potentially possibly was the term they used being operated by Koresh, which allowed them to request the assistance from the DEA and US Department of Defense for the drug connection for for essentially you know what became you know, just military, right. I mean,

you look at it's just like Ruby Ridge. It looks like they have this this base of operations that's straight up you know, in in you know, some sort of it is absolutely Joint Task Force yeah, it's an extraordinary thing to witness. Honestly, man, Oh, I have like a very small clip we could play that would would kind of like introduce that to and like get a view of the branch Davidians and in the the only footage of them during during the time, which is really interesting.

And there's also a child who's like asking the sheriff, like, you're not going to come in and kill us, right, I didn't even know that that existed, but yeah, here, I'll show it to you real quick, let me pull it up.

or you can say there's something more to it. I don't know either way.

the plan of God. What is it that God plans to bring out of it? That's the way they thought, all right, we're probably pushing it for copper.

alone obviously is worth mentioning. And this was a thirty minute tape played for members of the House Appropriation Subcommittee probing the siege, right, So that's when it was kind of more made public, and it was Yeah, June tenth, ninety three the Post they claimed that two months after the siege, Koresh called nine one one when raid began.

A dramatic nine to one one tape of conversation between branch and leader David Koresh and local sheriff's deputies, recorded in the early moments of an armed confrontation in February, reveals that Koresh knew in advance that federal agents planned to storm the Coltswaco compound, and Koresh said he knew the identity of an undercover agent who had set up

residents near the compound and infiltrated the group. This tape renewed questions about one of the most violent incidents in US law enforcement history and the decisions made by the ATF in planning for the failed raid, So top ATF officials obviously claimed that agents were instructed to abort the raid if the element of surprise was lost, and four

ATF agents died in the February twenty eighth firefight. Fifty one days later, more than eighty Davidians, including Koresh, obviously, perished in the compound when it caught fire and burned

after the FBI injected tear gas inside. The tape tinged with the sound of gunfire in the background, offers a window into the chaos of the raids early minutes, and that is when you know, you hear Wayne Martin also called and he says, you know, and as well as David Koresh said there are women and children in here, obviously, and that was he then reiterated that later when obviously, you know, the doors were blown apart and he was

shot back into the compound right property itself. But so that alone, you know, it always it stems back to just this unnecessary escalation right by the government that obviously was in many ways, it was a layered operation that achieved many objectives, but it facilitated the growth of the state as well, and it facilitated that path of the Dystopi nightmare, you know, and the violation of our inherent rights.

So that was an inherent example of the federal government's abuse of power, right, And I mean, so you know, talk about mishandling a conflict, you know what I mean.

fateful No, I'm pretty sure I'm correct. This is the the The initial rate is where they had the dog killer crew that jumped out that started off the party with that. The beginning of the party was started with popping off some dogs that were in a cage that

we're doing nothing in Iran. Yeah, and then I think when they shot the dogs, that's also what then spooked off the other Feds to start shooting so it's FEDS shooting Feds allegedly, and so that's theoretically so theoretically that could be what started the whole firefight, is the FED shooting the dogs and they were so fucking stupid that when they shot the dogs, they scared themselves and started shooting.

So yeah, but with the level of special forces there, there was a military presence at Waco that people are unaware of. CIA whistleblower acknowledged the FATUCI. Yeah.

how they obtained it. And so this no Knock raid had been planned from Monday, March first, but they were forced to move it up by a day in response to a series of articles the ATF had reportedly tried to prevent from being published in the Waco Tribune Herald called the Sinful Messiah as we just actually witnessed in those first couple of minutes of what's the name of

that damn thing rules of engagement. Yeah, So the ATF raid of the Branch Davidian compound dubbed code name Showtime would officially begin on a gray, wet Sunday morning, February twenty eighth, nineteen ninety three. So that is the day that those those the hostage negotiation tapes. Apparently we're covering

with that child. So this is when the morning of the twenty eighth of February, civilian trucks with black cattle trailers filled with over seventy five agents brandishing fully automatic weapons outfitted in swat style tactical gear arrived at Mount Carmel ready for war, and the victims inside the house described them as men in black, unidentifiable when coming towards you. So again, this is the strategic reality of having your FBI or ATF on the back where nobody knows who

you are. You're just mercenaries for as far as they know. I mean, imagine what that looks like. Now, the backup real quick, and now we're at the moment of the raid.

whatever TV show they were watching at the time. But anyway, so the point being that victims inside the house right then, Oh yeah, but what you're you're mentioning as well, it is important that we that we of course covered that aspect of of kind of you know, not only the justifications and how the raid was conducted, but also you know, the group of undercover agents posing as college students who moved into the house across the street from the Branch

Davidian compound with their rental cars giving them away. The agents hosted a party to deflect suspicion, but it had the opposite effect. Some of the Branch Davidians showed up to the party and mingled with the group and reported back to David Koresh that these were federal agents. For sure.

It's like, that's the funniest thing ever man and uh so Waco David Koresh The Branch Davidians and a Legacy of Rage published by Jeff Gwynn Right author, He claims that basically another agent, Robert Rodriguez, which is you know, really the most the most famous one out of all of these uh these names, posed as a potential follower to gain access to the group, and Koresh quickly pegged him as a fed, but kept inviting him to Bible

study anyway. After all, as he reminded his followers, Jesus had preached to a Roman centurion the day before the Sunday morning raid. Treasury Department officials in Washington attempted to call it off, concerned that it relied on unnecessary force. Why couldn't Koresh be arrested when he was away from

the compound. But a plan, once in motion, has a certain momentum, and the ATF, which had a Congressional budget hearing approaching, was in need of a splashy successful operation one atf agent was so confident that the mission would be over in a few hours that he even booked at tea time in Houston for Sunday afternoon. On the morning of February twenty eighth, ninety three, Rodriguez, still ostensibly undercover, listened as Koresh was tipped off that the raid was imminent.

Rodriguez rushed to report the news to his superiors, sure that they would abort the mission since the plans obviously relied on maintaining the element of surprise, But instead the raid proceeded obviously disastrously. And so I you know, it goes without.

in the world to arrest him and apprehend him. And so he had even patterned his jogging routine, as you said, to conveniently pass in front of their undercover house and an effort to provide them with exactly that opportunity. And so all of the official claims of being unable to apprehend him away from the property are patently absurd. There was even an official investigative report issued by the Department

of the Treasury. This stated David Koresh and two undercover agents, including Robert Rodriguez, which, by the way, Robert Rodriguez is the name of that film director that right did the did did the what was the name the Grindhouse series with movies with Tarantino. Uh, but anyway, very good movies. But so I always like made that strange connection whenever I was covering this, just because I knew from Dust till Dawn and should way you know, before where I

was like getting into the details of Waco. I always thought that was funny. But it doesn't matter so anyway, So the point of here is obviously that David Koresh, and these two undercover agents, including Rodriguez, went about a mile away off property and all of them shot firearms together. So, I mean, the ultimate inevitable question clearly is why didn't

they arrest him? Then, undercover agent Robert Rodriguez had been in the house at Mount Carmel on many occasions and said that he saw no signs of illegal activity and that they should call the raid off. So all of that playing into the really just I mean the I mean, really the suspect legality in the first place, of right of a lot of these claims, and so the Treasury

report would document and confirm that. On the morning of the twenty eighth, by eight am, the day of the raid, agent Rodriguez went to the compound one final time for the most critical phase of his undercover assignment, assessing whether the Herald Tribune series of articles had incited Koresh and his followers right to take up arms, Which is why they had to move up the raid for a day, because the ATF was trying to keep that publication from

actually going through with this obvious what would inevitably tip off the group if they were to read it, And so the the apparently that was the implication was that it had potentially incited Koresh and his followers to take

up arms to increase their security measures. And so Koresh greeted the undercover agent, but he invited him in to join the Bible study session with two of his followers, and there were obviously no signs at that moment of any unusual activity, which was strange obviously Leader Rodriguez himself because he was instantly aware of what was attempting to be conducted that day, which was not It was basically unplanned.

So while Koresh and Rodriguez were engaged in this Bible session, there was a member of the group, Perry Jones, who had just been warned by his son, who was a local letter carrier, that had just been accidentally tipped off by a lost cameraman working for a news station wearing a KWTX jacket looking for the compound, apparently not knowing

he was affiliated with the group. The cameraman asked for directions and indicated that some type of law enforcement action was about to take place at the compound, likely to be a raid of some type, and that there might

be shooting. Perry Jones devised a fake phone call pretext to draw David away from Agent Rodriguez so he could warn him of what he had just learned from his son, and according to the report, upon Koresh's return, Rodriguez could see that he was extremely agitated, and although he tried to resume the Bible session, he could not talk and had trouble holding his bible. Rodriguez grabbed the Bible from

Koresh and asked him what was wrong. Rodriguez recalls that Koresh said something about the Kingdom of God and proclaimed, neither the ATF nor the National Guard will ever get me. They get me once, they get me once, and they'll never get me again. Koresh then, which is a strange thing to say in the first place. And Koresh then walked to the window and looked out, saying, they're coming, Robert.

The time has come. He turned looking at Robert and repeated the exact same statement, They're coming Robert, and Rodriguez, being shocked, of course, Koresh repeatedly looked out the window

and repeated this statement. Rodriguez wondered whether the raid was beginning, even though he was still in the compound, so he's looking for an excuse to leave at this point, and uh, and he tells Koresh he had to meet someone for breakfast, but Koresh didn't even respond to this, and and apparently another male member entered the room, effectively, if not intentionally, coming between them as far as Rodriguez in the door. And so he's he's fearing being trapped in the compound, contemplating.

Was like, okay, we'll grow a fucking pair of balls. Tell him he obviously knows, be like, hey, we can avoid all of this if you want to come with me right now and we can take you under it.

undercover house. I mean, I don't know, it just sounds strange from the you know, just at face value, like what what are we talking about here? It's hard to believe that that's how it really went, but it's possible. Agents in the undercover house they claim that when Rodriguez returned, he's visibly upset, and he called Charles Sarabin, the overall tactical coordinator for the raid, who's at the command post at the time, and he tells us spell real quick,

Charles Sarabin. I believe it's essay r A B y N. Believe that's how it's pronounced. Yeah, which, by the way, he's uh, he's the site commander at Ruby Ridge.

be and yeah, in a very heightened state emotionally. Obviously, if he's shaking, right, if that's the actual claim. So Sarabin asked Rodriguez a series of questions from a prepared list provided by the tactical planners. Did you see any weapons? Was there a call to arms? Did you see them make any preparations? Robert responded in the negative to every question, and then Sarabin asked what the people in the compound

were doing when Rodriguez left. He answered that they were praying. Next, Sarabin called Kavanaugh, who reported that there was no observable activity in the compound. Often obviously he's a hostage negotiator at the time, special agent in the command post witnessed Sarabin's part of the conversation with Rodriguez. Now, after Sarabin had hung up the phone, the agent stopped him asked what Rodriguez had said. Sarabin responded that he had been with Koresh when Koresh was called from the room to

take an emergency telephone call. When he returned to the room, he said that ATF the National Guard were in Waco and were on their way. Sarabin also stated that Rodriguez reported Koresh was nervous drop the Bible from which he was reading, and then the agent asked Sarabin, what are you going to do? He responds that Rodriguez had seen no firearms and that Koresh was reading the Bible. When Rodriguez left, Sarrebin said he thought they could still execute

the plan if they moved quickly. He then arrives at the staging area at nine ten am. Witnesses report that he was excited and obviously in a hurry. Agents in the parking lot when Sarabin arrived recalled that he ran to them and told them that they had to hurry, making statements such as get ready to go. They know we are coming, and they know ATF and the National

Guard are coming. We're going to hit them now. So it's just I mean, they had full prior knowledge, you know, being as far as both of the groups, right, So you have each side of this conflict about to play out perfectly, you know, being just again prior knowledge well aware of what's about to ensue and that alone, and I think, uh, in no way obviously when when you you realize that kind of the rules of engagement at the time were all hinging on the fact that there

was no uh you know, prior knowledge.

even matter at the point. I mean, obviously it would escalate tensions and you know, make ultimately everything, it would just escalate and make it inevitably worse obviously, but still understanding, you know, first of all, like what I didn't realize Three of Bill Clinton's bodyguards during his nineteen ninety two election campaign were engaged in the Waco operation as officers

of the Bureau of Alcoholics back on firearms. Now, not only that, out of the four BATF officers who were killed in the initial raid on malt Carmel on February twenty eighth, ninety three, three of them were the very same former Clinton bodyguards. Like that alone is holy shit, what is going on here? You know? And yeah? Yeah, and then also just the press opportunity. Why why was was there so much? It feels like it was just at the very least exploited, you know, for public perception.

And but I think it's I think it's more statistic than that. I think there's an additional layer that you know, we haven't yet. Uh now, I'm I feel like I'm beginning to expose myself to that potential reality. But anyway, I don't want to get far off the point. So but I will say that aside, is that not extraordinary? Like that's that's absolutely crazy? Yeah, I don't even know

what to make of that, Like, uh huh. I mean we've seen videos of the like the the one guy got shot in the window, so I don't know if he died, to be fair, so it's like we know some of it is authentic, but like obviously for that thesis, it's like, what the hell happened where they're in like intentional friendly fire of some sort going on?

far as the clean up crew. The clean up crew, it's very interesting to to to see what might have been and then realize that this could have been some sort of manufactured press opportunity for you know, to to achieve layered objectives. So anyway, we'll get into this, but that's just score.

I think you know, if you listen to the you know, your episode where you play the little audio, you can you know they still got firing going on that point, but you know, they start coorning with each other say hey, you know, let's chill it out. So that's where we're at. Now, we're at the we're at a standoff. So where we're at with the relevant stuff in the in the standoff.

I know, usually standoff does get kind of hand waved over, but there are definitely things to you know, to pick at through there too, to highlight.

But still you have Charles Sarabin and Philip Chognak Chosnuki, the two federal agents in charge of leading the initial raid who later would be fired for lying to their superiors and investigators about what undercover agent Rodriguez had reported, uh apparently corroborated by sixty one different witnesses as well.

So they took the fall. Officials during the Waco investigation would even suggest on the record that the implication of their findings is that in lying to investigators, mister Sarabin and mister Chozhnuki could be guilty of felony offenses. Not only did they lie about what was reported, they also attempted to shift blame to mister Rodriguez, even altering documentary evidence.

Later on, so Robert Rodriguez filed lawsuits against his supervisors and the BATF and ninety five, claiming that they had defamed him and conspired to make him a scapegoat, eventually settling out of court where he would receive over two

million dollars in damages. None of the real victims obviously received any damages as far as any of financial damages but compensation, but more than seventy five agents, obviously nine to forty five am the day of the raid rolled up to Mount Carmel, jumping out two cattle cars, shouting showtime ATF would never attempt to serve the search warrant, obviously, the initial plan being one group of agents will break through the front door while another group took ladders and

smashed through the windows on the second and floor where the women and children were. Multiple agents would later say that the Fed shot first would be Ridge all over again six months later, although that would be at the center of much controversy due to the official claims being that the FEDS had shown restraint after being attacked by

radical cult members led by a madman. One of the agents, while testifying in the San Antonio trial, would even back up the claim made by the Davidians about a separate group of ATF called the Dog Team, which you had mentioned earlier, which obviously in the first few moments of the operation were the ones responsible for the initial shots fired.

They had gone up to the Davidians fully enclosed dog kennel near the front door of the property with five Alaskan malamuse fawn and her four pups, and their job was to shoot them in cold blood. Claims were made that agents then mistook the shots fired from the Dog Team shots coming from the Davidians, and so they all opened fire on the house, sparking over a two hour long fire fight in the Texas Prairie. Could you imagine, It's like, it's literally like the original Predator when they

first don't they have no idea. What that what they're shooting at. But they all empty, every single last round into fucking thin air. That's like what it sounds like happened. So David Koresh had been shot in the hand, in the stomach when the first shots had been fired. He's wounded.

Now within a minute, you have the attorney Wayne Martin, member of the group, Harvard law graduate, African American, called nine one one, pleading for a ceasefire, with audio tapes recording him saying, here they come again, and that's them shooting. That's not us. The five Branch Davidians killed in the initial raid the morning of the twenty eighth, where Winston Blake, Peter Grant, Peter Hipsman, Perry Jones, and Jadon Wendell. Their

bodies were buried on the grounds. Nearly six hours after the eleven thirty am c's fire, Michael Schroeder, whose wife was inside the compound, was shot dead by ATF agents who alleged his he fired a pistol at agents as he attempted to re enter the compound. The hat he was wearing at the time that he was shot. This sounds like a straight up you know, murder. I mean honestly, and because this guy whose wife was inside the compound. I mean imagine that man, you know, you come home,

You're like, what the fuck? You know you? I got to get home, Like people all over town have been telling me that this shit's popping off. You'd have to imagine that was probably what happened. He's getting calls from everywhere. He ends up Michael Schroeder, this individual six hours after the ceasefire, so he has to know his wife's in the damn compound shot dead by ATF agents. This man, who alleged he fired a pistol at agents says he

attempted to render the compound. The hat he was wearing at the time he was shot would also mysteriously go missing from the evidence. How convenient, Yeah, so Professor Emeritus of Law on Psychiatry at Harvard Law School, Alan Stone. He stated in his report that the Branch Davidians did not ambush the ATF, that they did not maximize the kill of ATF agents. Four ATF agents were killed during the raid and over twenty had sustained injuries. That is

a hell of a firefight. The ATF would continue attacking the house until they ran out of ammunition, So it is exactly like what I was considered what I thought it sounded like. Right after the ATF withdrew, they attempted to establish contact with Koresh and others inside the house. As a result of the deaths of federal agents, the FBI quickly took over the operation, naming Jeff Jamar as site commander, who had most recently been the head of

the San Antonio Field Office. The FBI's Blue and Gold Hostage Rescue Tactical teams had been mobilized to the site. To address your team commander Richard Rodgers. He had been criticized for his actions at Ruby Ridge. That is the site commander who was criticized from Ruby Ridge around six months prior to Waco. He would be the one in charge of the tactical teams, later receiving more criticism for overriding the site commander at Waco in the same exact

way he did at Ruby Ridge. So that's Richard Rogers. He had to have been at least an asset of pat Con if not a direct operative. But he's calling to resolve the situation tactically, which of course causes friction with the FBI. Negotiators attempting to make progress in good faith with the group. And according to the final Justice Department report, you have twenty five FBI negotiators heavily criticized as far as they heavily criticized the tactical commanders for

undercutting their botiations. So in no way were they able to act in good faith. They couldn't even you know, they couldn't trust that anything that they would tell the members of the group would end up being legitimately honest. So at a certain point they were just like, what the fuck do we even do? I mean, this is obviously not going to end well, that is not the goal here. And so David initially tries to give phone interviews with local news media. What a what a brilliant tactic.

I mean, obviously you would have to do that if you want to get out in front of this trying. Hey man, we might all be sacrificed out here, like we need to do. Get get out in front of this, do something about the public perception and and but of course, guess what happens. The FBI quickly cut the phone lines and shut off all water and power to the house. That's a siege man, I mean, yeah.

milk to spoil. And so those were the very mind games that they were, you know, operating with and and and you know, exploiting and leveraging to their benefit, serving to the negotiator's point as far as undercutting their ability

to act in good faith. So negotiators, they managed to facilitate the release of up to nineteen children along with a number of elderly women who would immediately be separated from the children, which that alone, they're charged with conspiracy to murder government agents.

of like twenty Hours or something. But yeah, they were like they were like the big thing is these people could would like when they were trying to negotiate like getting people out, it was like the idea of like for one that's like to some extent like sort of this is our leverage. These people here. Also they don't want to go with you because they're literally terrified of you because they just just came in here and murdered

their family and friends. So it's just like and then the idea that and when you finally convince them to let some of them go, that you then immediately you know, then arrest them and then use them to emotion further emotionally manipulate the rest of them. It's just it's a just what do you expect to I mean, once again to the what do you expect to happen? It's like, well, kind of what ended up happening, and this obviously this ends up being like a testing ground for methods and procedures,

which it does seem like. I mean, that reminds me of things like over in Gaza when you hear about the crazy you know, murder drones over there and stuff, and it's like they're trying out same thing with Ukraine, where it's like when anytime there's a a a theater where you know there's gonna be death and destruction, it's like, oh cool, time to try out new toys, we can do kind of whatever here. And that kind of feels

like sort of almost what's going on with Waco. I mean, obviously in the lead up to that, now that's the now, that's the time for them to Oh cool, we get to try out all of our all of our interrogation methods and or not even interrogation methods are are I don't even know what just mind fucking methods and then you know, then once it actually kicks off, then oh cool, Now we can try all our fun killing methods because

obviously we'll get it, we'll get to that. But that's when it looks like they were trying to kill people who were trying to get away so as they were burning to death.

Sinatra's these boots are made for walking. I found that interesting, you know it's it's by the way, did you know that the US military employed the same technique on Iraqi prisoners of war using the theme song from the PBS kids series Barney and Friends.

my dog's freaking out. Chill out. Uh So the Feds, obviously they they put these they separate the women from the children, obviously charged them, and then put them in these five point chains and jumpsuits. And then they would then obviously proceed to force these women to stand out in front of the Davidian's home calling for them to come out. During the first week, the FBI would send a video camera into the house in order to show that there were no hostages, that people were staying inside

on their own free will. So it's just like, you know, the group they recorded a videotape that included Koresh introducing

his children and his wives. Write that infamous tape to the negotiators and several members obviously making statements in the video, including one by David, that led to concern that the tapes released to the media could actually potentially gain sympathy for the group and David himself, And so they no longer allowed this to take place, and two attorneys were then allowed entry into the house and upon examining the evidence, they tell the group that they would have a strong

case against the government. That's what happened when the attorneys went in, and as the siege wore on. You have two opposing factions that formed within the FBI. This is according to the official line. One believed the only solution was through negotiation, the other believed the only solution was force. So aggressive techniques started to be used, like sleep deprivation, for example, or all night broadcasts of audio recordings playing

the screams of rabbits being slaughtered in Buddhist chanting. FBI had obtained from the US Army nine Bradley fighting vehicles equipped with ferret rounds and cs gas grenades, and five tanks they would call combat engineer vehicles. They are I mean they're used at first to destroy the Davidian's cars, and then they destroyed the perimeter fencing and the outbuildings. They disrespected the grave of one of the dead Branch Davidians,

despite protests from the FBI negotiators. The Dallas Morning News they claimed that FBI planners considered using snipers to kill David Koresh and other key Branch Davidians due to impatience around Koresh refusing to speak to them between April fifth through the thirteenth because of the passover.

That's what he did. So he then he comes back home and then now he sees these Bradley's that he was over in the Gulf War using to kill Iraqis, and he's field some kind of fucked up way about. There's a lot that seemed to imply that he didn't seem too keen on the stuff going on over there after the fact, kind of a bit of a bleeding heart. And yeah, then here you go. And then now you have a Now they're using it over in Waco, and uh what what happens?

I would say, but uh, I mean that it's still we'll get in. I mean, I don't know, Well, you let me know by the end of this what you want to do. But uh, there's honestly, again like this this is one of the It truly is the best example of yeah, of just.

so it makes a lot more sense. But so we we have these ferret rounds, these cs gas grenades, these Bradley fighting vehicles and five tanks right combat engineered vehicles that were used to destroy the Davidian's cars, the perimeter fencing out buildings obviously completely disrespect you know this, this uh dead and buried Branch Davidian as far as you know these these But the point being here is that they were considering, just like with Ruby Ridge, actually using

snipers to kill David Koresh and these key Branch Davidian members and obviously knowing Lonhoryucci's involvement here, then it actually legitimately does become a direct connection to Ruby Ridge. And as far as the the sniper team from forget the location that they had been deployed from Quantico, Yeah, Virginia. So despite David repeatedly denying any plan from mass suicide.

Of course, the FBI would make public claims that the group they might commit mass suicide right like what had happened, throwing that out there, and they even use the same they reference Jonestown. Hey, you know, could just end up like Jonestown looks like he shares all the same qualities of a Jim Jones.

so he's working the last seven. And that was the whole thing of like, oh just wait a minute, I gotta finish my seal, and like I believe even the whole like apocalyptic you know, military coming in was even part of his whole seals or whatever the hell you know, you know, roll out in his head. So like with them coming in his head was like, oh, now is the time for me? With a seventh seal in his head. So obviously I don't know enough about the internal logic of the Davidians, but yeah, yeah.

these things and how they would actually take place. Right where he's talking about tanks driving up and down the w Ranch Road and and you know, the helicopters buzzing Mount Carmel's facility, right and and so yeah, it's it's

very worthwhile and mentioning it. But he had a final statement to the world, David Koresh and he released this letter to his attorney on April fourteenth with the claim, as you said, he's writing an interpretation of the Seventh Seals of the Book of Revelation, but he promised to exit the compound upon its completion. He says, I want the people of this generation to be saved. I'm working night and day to complete my final work of the writing out of these seals. I thank my father he

has finally granted me the chance to do this. It will bring new lights and hope to many, and they will not have to deal with me the person. I will demand the first manuscript of the seals be given to you. Many scholars and religious leaders will wish to have copies for examination. I will keep a copy with me. As soon as I can see that people like Jim Tabor and Phil Arnold have a copy, I will come out and then you can do your thing with this beast.

Within the FBI, it was obviously a lot of frustration because more of this, as they viewed it was a stain becoming a stain on the agencies involved, and so you had some agents claiming this letter was a delayed tactic while others saw it as a breakthrough. So again you see this kind of you know, this fracturing between being willing to negotiate and wanting to come to some

sort of tactical conclusion. And in the end, there was a decision made to act and the fifty one day siege would come to an end early in the morning April nineteenth, after the FBI hostage rescue team had their recommendations to mount a full tactical assault on the compound

approved by newly appointed Attorney General Janet Reno. Reno, obviously usual suspect, reportedly told President Bill Clinton at the time and that the FBI hostage rescue team was tired of waiting, that the standoff was costing over a million dollars per week. She also cited false claims made by the hostage rescue team that child sexual abuse and mass suicide were imminent,

although HRT would later officially deny making said claim. So then you have Jim Bouvard putting in it in perfect terms, right because he explains that shortly before the Waco showdown, you have the US government signing an International Chemical Weapons Convention treaty pledging never to use nerve agents, mustard gas, and other compounds, including tear gas, against enemy soldiers. But this treaty contained a loophole permitting governments to gas their

own people. So on April nineteenth, ninety three, the FBI pumped cs gas and methyl chloride, a potentially lethal flammable combination, into the Davidian's residence for six hours, disregarding explicit warnings that CS gas should not be used indoors. They should have learned this, by the way, in the Patty Hurst the LAPD that huge firefight in Los Angeles, when when the Patty Hurst situation was playing out, what did they do? They've burned that motherfucker down. That is exactly they played

out this exact same scenario. They had no reason to not effectively understand the strategic outcome of this. You know.

So Stephen Schiff, he declares that, and he's a representative, right, a government representative who he claims that the deaths of dozens of men, women, and children can be directly and indirectly attributable to the use of this gas and the way it was injected by the FBI chemistry professor George Uhlig testified to Congress in ninety five that the the FBI gas attack suffocated the children early on may have converted their poorly ventilized bunker into a ventilated bunker, into

an area similar to one of the gas chambers used by the Nazis at Auschwitz. So this is the result. And these abrams tanks driven by FBI agents battered the davidians homes repeatedly, loudspeakers endlessly broadcasting this is not an assault. Prior to the fire, the tanks had collapsed twenty percent of the building atop its residents, and the FBI planned

to totally demolish the home. Grenade launschers, Yeah, exactly. Grenade launchers on the tanks and other armored vehicles fired almost four hundred ferret rounds of cs gas through the thin wooden walls in the windows of the building. Yet Attorney General Janet Reno later insisted, we didn't attack. We tried to exercise every restraint possible to avoid violence. The FBI speedily asserted that the Davidians ignited the fire that consumed

their dwelling. The following day, Bill Clinton, deriding suggestions that Attorney General Reno should resign because some religious fanatics murdered themselves. That's what he's deriding this, this claim, right that the suggestion that she should resign. Why why should she resign because some religious fanatics murdered themselves. Six years later, independent investigators found pyrotechnic ferret rounds the FBI fired at the

scene prior to the flames erupting. Attorney General Reno lashed out at the FBI for destroying her credibility, but neither she nor FBI officials suffered any consequences from the collapse of the official narrative.

report to the Deputy Attorney General. It claims that three fires around noon had broken out that day almost simultaneously in different parts of the building and spread very very quickly.

Only nine people escaped the building during the fire, and Branch Davidian survivors, along with other explosives experts, maintained that the fires were either accidentally or deliberately started by the assault, possibly by the types of pyrotechnic rounds the FBI lied to the public about using for six years after Waco, so the government still maintains that the fires were deliberately

started by the Branch Davidians. The official line is that they didn't know CS gas was strictly manufactured to only be used as a riot control agent in an outdoor setting, although they had learned that when the LAP and the intelligence apparatus right would do a loyalty utilize this very strategy in Los Angeles with the Patty Hurst obviously that case, but with donald sink you to freeze, so it behaves very similarly to that of a grain silo, obviously in

a controlled environment, creating an extreme fire hazard. So some people explain the building as being prepared by previous holes deliberately plunged through the top of the structure in order to create airflow and basically stage the house as a pot belly stove, primed and ready to go off. All they needed to do was provide the spark. I mean,

that's what they did. Man. Twenty eight children died attempting to flee into the underground bunker when the tanks crushed the ceilings above them, killing some of the children due to blunt force trauma.

by doctor Leslie Muttu. But still there's that direct connection involving this strange cyanide connection, right, this strange overlapping threat resurfacing and all these very obvious covert agendas that have played out in front of us and then been kind of reinterpreted and and and and you know, represented and repackaged to the public in a way that would be uh just like you know, plausible and in some sort of way, you know, susceptible to their framework of how

the power paradigm functions. Yeah, it's interesting. But so you have these bodies due to the cyanide poisoning after the autopsies were effectively performed, this cyanide poisoning caused their spines to forcefully contort, leaving their bodies you know, very deformed, right, And that was something that was lacking in the Jonestown bodies, which is why there was so much skepticism there regarding cyanide, So the FBI would claim that in the final moments

before death, members of the group had murdered their children brutally and then committed suicide. So officials claimed they had audio recordings from surveillance devices that had covertly snuck into that they had covertly snuck into the milk cartons that spoiled in the first days of negotiations, proving that the Videans conspired to start the fires using gasoline.

what they meant there. Like like the way they were talking, I think it was like almost like they're trying to like, you know, light candles or something stupid, and so it's like they have them saying something about fire or something, and so it's like if you interpret in a wildly retarded way, you can be like okay, but uh yeah, I mean, man, I mean we're at two and a

half hours. Then I think we hit it all. I mean obviously, I think me and you have them more to probably talk on another day about this, and there's definitely weird things. But man, it's been a long night and I think we gave a lot of people a lot to think about and kind of you know, we've covered all the main beats. I mean, there's definitely, like I say, he said, if you do have an itch for digging to more. I could recommend the Horton series if you want this in a more succinct version. You

have your episode. Obviously we're going to a little more stuff here. But uh yeah, Austin, let me know where they can find you at. I appreciate you having you on obviously me and you do regular shows. But that's possible part of why I brought you on here knowing we're about to have a big, a big bunch of audience coming in here soon. So let them know where they can find you at. Because while we do two shows together, not all of our stuff is together, and

we have two separate channels. We just whenever it's the shows we do together, we stream, we stream them to both of our platforms. But you know, for example, right now, this episode I'm doing right now, it's like my I do more like interviews type shows. You do more like solo type content. So yeah, you let them know where they can find you at. So you know, if you

want my stuff obviously, no way Jose show. But if you want to awsome underclass podcast, let them know where they can find that at and other places where they can reach you at all.

of conclusive format, you know, in a way. Although we did basically cover the most you know, prominent points that were worthy of acknowledgment, but there's always more, and obviously we had talked privately, there is much more of a you know, of a wrinkle here that I was unexpecting,

but as far as it was very unexpected. But still it seems to fall perfectly into place with the concept of kind of how I'm realizing this very well established network has been in place for far too long, and that the usual suspects as we continually discuss, seem to resurface, as yeah as being primarily a part of these clandestine operations and the layered aspect of them what they're attempting

to achieve. So at a certain point we will get into the layered aspects of what was going on with Waco, because I do think that there's alternative theories out there that might actually fill in a lot of holes and provide, you know, again an interesting thread into a different avenue of perspective regarding this entire event, which blows me away.

But again, so the point being here, how we can kind of end this thing and tie this thing off is basically just that you had obviously just mentioned you know, the fires, you know obviously, and then you have the recordings being provided from the mill cartons. But here's the point that's very important because years later, by nineteen ninety nine, former CIA officer Gene Colin had gone public with knowledge of Special Forces being president at Waco overseeing the bloody conclusion.

Details were then given by the Dallas Morning News of at least three Delta Force Commandos, members of a secret army tactical unit, being present upfront and close and helping the FBI and the final tear gas assault on the Branch Davidian compound. He continued, saying that he heard the detailed accounts of the military's active involvement from three or four anti terrorist Delta Commandos as he worked with them

on an overseas assignment in ninety three. I have much more of a concrete connection to this, but I can't get into it now, So with that.

Our morning shows at ten am Eastern are our live call in shows on Tuesdays at nine thirty pm Eastern. But if you want to make Collins, that's the place to do it where you can do. But yeah, this is definitely we're gonna have to definitely continue this conversation on one of those two we have already dead tomorrow, so probably the call in show, although I don't know if we'll fit it in with our guests, but yeah,

I'll let you finish your point. But I was just going out that is That's definitely we're definitely gonna talk about this more because I am definitely fucking interested.

fun with in the very near future. But obviously, the way I describe it in my episode, I say, you know, I asked the question, why would why would they do such a thing, you know, to to these individuals right of this, this this organization, this group, Why would they do this to these people?

Because people believe were more powerful than we are. We project strength, and the people believe in that strength. When we sit outside a place like this for weeks on end, waiting for them to tire. We look weak in front of the rest of the world, and every asshole with a bomb kit starts getting ideas. This is more than a situation. Now, this is a symbol. Are we the

kind of agency that coddles cop killers? And I feel like that is a great example of the retaliatory nature of and also just you know, Thibodeau put it in the terms of like, you know, these these guys that were extremely good athletes in high school and didn't really make it in the pros to any real level, and then we're like, what the fuck do I do it? With all this pithy?

they felt more sophisticated. But like was it like Angleton I think was like a poet or something some nonsense, And it's like it's just like always it's always just like they're just mediocre, because otherwise you wouldn't be a FED, Like yeah, like like you know, why would you be working for the government if you were worth a damn. But anyways, Austin, I think we had this. We had a good coverage of Waco today. I'm looking forward to, uh, you know, hopefully the thing we were talking about drops

the following day after this. So you guys keep an eye out, follow all of our socials and stuff, and I'm sure you'll know. But Austin, where can they find you? All right?

big deal. But if you do want to chip in the buck, I do appreciate it, obviously, only if you can afford it, you know, take care of you and yours first. But pictaron dot Com slash no Way hooes a twenty twenty the lowest levels two bucks that gives you access to early episodes much like this one. This one's gonna go out a little earlier than normal. Usually they sit behind the paywall for a good few weeks, maybe even up to including a month. I usually keep

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We're dumping info on you, that's what we're doing there. So it's a fun time. But with that, guys, we're gonna get out of here. I'll see you guys soon, but yeah, make sure to you know, she should follow the channel, you know, see what we're doing, and hopefully I see you guys on one of these morning streams or something. With that, we are out of here. Goodbye.