Appearance on Rise to Liberty

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could but I have dabbled a little bit. I have a particularly in this topic is probably where I've dabbled the most, and actually getting involved in the doing some real work involved to it, in some actual research. I mean in a certain sense. I guess all all of us podcasters are researchers. We're just I don't know, finding stuff we find interesting and sharing it with the world.

So that's really all I'm doing. Uh, And it seems like I found a semi decent following along the way I've I guess, semi decents what you could call success in the realm of podcasting. You know, I'm by no means fucking like killing it and then the like a six figuring it up in podcasting everything. I haven't made it rich, but I'm doing Okay, I guess in the

context of what podcasting is. So I've had a fun time, but I kind of started out I cut my teeth on theory, libertaty and theory is kind of I started on a lot on Probably first couple hundred episodes were probably almost exclusively we're like this, this was a this No Way Jose was a theory podcast. And then at some point, really the major turning point was when I covered the Oklahoma City bombing. Is I think that's when I really just, I don't know, something about that drove

my interest. I just I don't know. I think it's maybe just a sign of times two, a lot going on. I just lost interest in the theory side of things, which I'm kind of add and obsessive like that. So I'm sure maybe I'll come back to it at some point, but you know, I kind of dropped it. But so I I mean, I leave it and leave it open to come back to it. That's the beautiful nature of having a podcast that's called something like No Way Jose. Like, I haven't tied myself to anything. I can talk about

whatever the hell I want. But as of right now, this show is pretty much a parapolitical podcast. I do a daily a live stream kind of like a morning show thing. It's at ten am Eastern. I say daily, but it's like Monday through Friday, you know, weekend. They're kind of like bonuses. We do those quite frequently. That's me and my buddy Austin, who is more of a researcher less of a podcaster. I'm more of a podcast less of a researcher. Together, we make a podcaster researcher together.

So but so he is, he's there like kind of the research guy. But he me and him both host those morning dumps, so we'll kind of alternate or do them together depending on who's available. That's just a hangout thing, So that's just kind of hanging out. I call it a dump because it's kind of like a research dump of sorts, but it's also like a morning show. So we kind of dig through the latest and then also

kind of maybe some old research. And then yeah, we have a weekly live show we do, and then we have our solo work, which is kind of like, you know, stuff like I've been having you on lately to cover the false memory syndrome. We have a whole series on that I've kind of made a knack. I've done a lot of series, and a lot of those are with Austin. Like we mentioned earlier, I've done like a Finder series with him, and and we've done quite a few we to Jonestown, so I mean and him, I've done a

lot of work together. We've kind of been a little bit of a team. We have our own separate platforms, but we do essentially two shows together that go on both on our platforms. But we have our own solo work as well. But he's more of the you know, produced solo research work. Where do I do more like you know, I'm more of them podcaster interviews, discussions, sepphal

of those like. So you can kind of get your fill of both of us from both of our platforms with I mean, he's over on the Underclass podcast, but two out of three of his shows feature on my channel as well, so and vice versa with my stuff. So that's that's kind of who I am. I guess.

I mean, I guess don't really say at all who I am particular, I guess if anyone who actually gives a shit about that, I mean, I know, I'm a dad husband, I mean, I have have two teenage girls, well one teenage girl, one's about to be teenager somewhat soon.

about me. I did get really sucked into the local and stity bombing is kind of what most people know me before. I guess not most people. I mean I say that like as if a bunch of people know me, but I don't know. That would be probably one of the thing I'm best known for people. I've done a lot of coverage in OKLHO and city bombing, but in general I do a lot of talking on parapolitical stuff,

like We're getting ready to go on. We were talking for you, so I get ready go on, Jake Shields and we're gonna talk about We're gonna do almost like a two episode series of sorts I think, starting with Oklahoma City bombing and ending with like, you know, the first one like Oklahoma City bombing, the second one ending with like Finders and Dutroux type stuff, and so kind of weaving from one to the other. The big the

larger narrative being Gladio. I mean, we've gone we went on Triple Show recently kind of laid out the theory of everything with Gladio. So I don't know, that's just kind of our wheelhouse, just a parapolitical funness. So I guess it's we para politicals just a cleaned up way of saying conspiracy. Really, but I feel like it leads to this flavor too of like we usually try to like to come from a here's the sources tripe angle. Like it doesn't mean I'm gonna be perfect about every

little thing. We are running a show. To some extent there will be a little bit of info wars vibe to it, but for the most part we do try to come from a place of truth and not truth TM like a truth Oh here's this document, here's this Oh you know, you gave some pushback, here's this other document. Oh maybe I'm wrong uh, just that that kind of perspective.

So that's who I am, That's what I'm about. I don't know, yeah, that's a really I mean, I don't have a whole lot to say for myself aside from that, But.

bunch of different topics and stuff. So you know, I kind of actually have like the same arc as you, like obviously with the name like Rise to Liberty, Like I kind of started with libertarian stuff and started twenty twenty one or twenty two, I don't know. I started around the same time as Kyle Matovic and him and I like launched like within maybe like a week or two of each other, and it's just kind of interesting.

I started because I saw like this attack on free speech and stuff, and I was like, even if the market is oversaturated, I don't really care. We should just flood the market with as much free speech as possible. And then I started realizing just like how lame libertarianism is. The ideas are great, the people suck, and so I'm just I'm just way more interested in things that I've been interested long before libertarianism.

was not ready for the boogloo to go down. That's like, that's the kind of the way I saw things and so one thing that we were doing is this, before we saw the huge tech censorship, Facebook used to be a really great tool, especially for community building for groups. And we took that and we applied that concept and we're trying to apply like network concepts, and we created what we called the Liberty Movement. And this was an idea, and we also had this concept just kind of I

guess rooted a little bit like Agoris type concepts. We had this idea that we thought, like the political is what kind of really caused the issue with when it comes to libertarians generally or liberty minded people. And so that was kind of like, hey, we're not this is just a group for you guys to hang out whatever. This doesn't explicitly vote for this guy, vote for that guy, whatever, you guys talk about it. But essentially the idea was

just face but groups. And from there there was almost like a network concept to it, like we had different groups that were for different concept and then groups that were more local. Like so when then we even had all the way down to countries, we had country ones.

We had it like very well organized down to like countries, states, and so the idea was we were just trying to get it, so people had like real world networks to be kind of build meet up and stuff like that, and uh, that just kind of ended up honestly, the really we actually I thought we're really making some good headway and a lot of cool things wrapping. We had a couple of local meetups where I was at, and we kind of made some local chapters and other places

did as well. Uh, but it did kind of fall apart. I really blamed the Facebook censorship for that. Honestly, it became Facebook became completely untenable, and it happened so quickly. It was like we weren't able to really because we did try to like shift like mi wei and other shit like that. But anyways, the podcast was actually born

out of that. It was part of a kind of a promotional like idea to kind of promote it and also kind of promote the concept because because I was also like I was doing my own show to kind

of like promote it the idea. But really what I was trying to do was feature other people's shows, especially startup shows or people with similar concepts, and feature them on the channel and then almost have like a daily content and then just be different shows and I had a few different shows that I was doing anyways, long story short, that became too untenable. The other show kind of I kind of found I was liking podcasting, but

it was born completely a promotional thing. It was kind of dragging, you know, kicking and screaming because like other admins in the group were like, Hey, this is totally something you should do, you would be good at it, you're good about you like to talk about these things. And the rest is kind of history. And then overtime it like the what was called the Liberty Movement, which is the original YouTube channel slowly, and then I had No Way Jose but which is a was a show

that featured on the Liberty Movement. Eventually, No Way Jose took off and Liberty Movement just kind of fizzled out. So but you can blame Zuckerberg for that one. That we don't have this illustrious, beautiful, thriving liberty movie meant the thing imagic. So it was actually kind of probing a little bit for there for a minute, we had a lot of stuff happening, but it, uh, yeah, shit got rough. But that's yeah, that's I don't know, I

just I don't know why. I felt like sharing that just was some error called some old war that I was like I had forg almost fart forgotten entirely about that ever happening.

And so it started off really strong. People were coming out doing things, and then people want you to be doing something, but you have to have people to do things, and we couldn't get people to come out, and so it was like this like weird vicious circle, not being able to get people to come out more than an hour once a month, and it's like, Okay, well this just isn't worth it. There's better ways to spread liberty.

And as far as the podcast thing goes, like I'm with you, I enjoy podcasting, but you know, I enjoy the ideas It's just every time I cover anything like specifically libertarian view viewership just tanks every time, and it's like, oh, well, I mean I'm interested in more things than just that. And actually with your show, with your Oklahoma City, I

guess your series. I don't know why it was so hard for me to figure out that word, but your your Oklahoma series, I had actually never thought of Oklahoma City like in that way at all. I mean I've been a I guess conspiracy theorist since maybe junior high, you know, like that's when I started really getting into it. That's when I found Alex Jones, and so pretty much since then, you know, I've covered or been into all sorts of topics. But I had never thought of Oklahoma

City until I saw your show. And then I just, like binge, watched all of your episodes and then just consumed everything that I could possibly get my hands on, so to kind of move things along. Where did you find Oklahoma City?

you know, I've told this story many times. There was a Jinx edit crack connoisseur on Twitter I think is a I don't think his account exists anymore. I assume you at the activator or something. I doubt he got nuked, but anyways, he I mean, he's been nuked many many times. But he had this Terence Yeky edit which really caught my eye slash ear, I really tugged at my heart strings.

I was also just kind of incredulous, like this seems nuts like kind of story that was being told in that two to three minute little musical you know rendition, which, for those aren't aware what a Twitter edit, that's kind you know, it's kind of a kind of like your intro at the beginning here, it's kind of a on a different audio and video intersplice with you know a lot of maybe like different documents or usually telling a story,

I mean, in the very common the conspiracy landscape. So I saw that and then just kind of kind of freaking blew my mind. It's like, holy crap. So I went and looked into It's just kind of like this can't be real that the story Terreen's Yiky went looked into it, and I was kind of like the more look at him, like more, I'm like, oh my god. And so that's when the Terren' Yeky story that really

just kind of like holy moly. And then I just kind of put a call out to the world, I guess, and I was like I don't remember exactly what I said, but something along the lines of like, Hey, who do I need to get to cover locals to be bombing? I want to cover this on the show. And I heard from multiple people, I think Scott Horton being one

of them. Hey, get Richard booth On. And Richard booth He is the I call him the crypt keeper of the of the Libertarian Institute Oklahoma City Bombing are Archive, which that is the largest public you know, Oklahoma City Bombing Archive of you know, I guess public documents. I guess is the way to put it, just different to different any documents or anything you know concerning it, different articles, whatever, anything can really think of. Is a repository of information

for that. It's the largest public one out there, and that's a that's hosted by the the Libertarian Institute, which is Scott Horton's website. So and it's you know, it's Richard Booth, the one who like handles manages it pretty much entirely, and it's essentially it's essentially Google for the

Oklahoma City bombing. So you go in there and you type in yiky and then boom, it brings up all the different documents and articles and whatever if three o two reports whatever concerning it to him, you know, anything you know relating to that. So it's kind of you know, depending on keywords, searts related. Anyways, it was so then I got him and we spent and around i'd say probably around fifteen hours on a series. There's a bonus episode in there with Ken Silvan in the middle, and

also there are other primary sources interviews throughout there. I interviewed Tanya Yiki, which was a incredible treat because that was kind of what starred me down this road she was. I just I never would have imagined interviewing her. She hadn't been interviewed and since back into the nineties, so it was like ninety six I think the last time

she was interviewed. Also interviewed Steve Vasser, which was one of the best friends of Yiki, and you know, done a number of other things related to this and made some I think some actual research happened, So I think that's cool. Whether that was me or have I just kind of facilitated it, So I don't know. It's kind of cool to think I've had some sort of footprint on this story and hopefully I can continue to have more, because I do think this is a super important story too,

like one like you laid out. It is kind of a sleeper story. Most people aren't even really aware there's so much to this and it is a lot, so most people don't even aware. It's also kind of one that's at it's it's due, it's time, so it's like at that moment, h you know, and the the the rhythm that like circular, like how time works with these deep events and you know, when we uh, you know, when we start getting crazy disclosure or public awareness raising.

It just seems we're at that spot where it's supposed to be that scav is supposed to be getting picked, that that that bandage is supposed to be taken off around right now. That's when I think shit is really supposed to break is around right now. And it's a kind of a little bit of a bummer that I think a lot of people have for gone. It almost

got a overshadowed by nine to eleven. Uh So, I think there's just so much in it, which I mean, some of which I think it's a it's also the being more niche makes it more fun in a certain sense. Fun I guess is the wrong word. But so for you know, open for research. Yeah, but like nine to eleven, it's kind of like it's boring, Like I don't know, that's kind of how I feel about it. I just I'm not interested in nine eleven research. I'm just not. It bores me. I don't know why, just because it's

like everyone talks about nine to eleven. I've heard people talk about nine to eleven so many times, just like here nine to eleven, I just go. But I know for me, maybe I'm just a hipster like that here

Golom the city bombing. I'm like, okay, But anyways, point being is it, it's at that time and I think the O being overshadowed by the nine to eleven actually might be a little bit of its own secret weapon that people are kind of like expecting maybe some sort of push for nine eleven still where it's like nope,

you know, gotcha, sucker, this one's hiding the wing. But anyways, and I'm kind of rambling now, but yeah, I'm a story I care about a lot, and it's just that's kind of what I how I got dragged into it was a story of Yiki, and I think it's really for me. With Yiki's story, it really is just a

I don't know, I just uh, you know. I was able to sympathize with a essentially a company man of sorts that was, you know, at that like midway level of his career that clearly was running into issue us the trot brass trying to do the right thing and just really just getting butt up against by the reality of the beast that is the Lefaivan of government. I

can very much sympathize it. That is my story and many other people that I've known who have like spent I don't know a year in the realm of a decade in government and go, oh my god, this is soul crushing. You feel trapped. So but I mean, luckily I've been able to kind of you know, I was able to. I was sort of trapped, but I've been able to kind of somewhat leverage the limited success I've had from podcasting to be able to I don't know, not be in the poorhouse. So thank you guys for that.

So but with that, let's jump into Oklahoma City just a little bit. I actually do have one of these edits that I was gonna play real quick just to give kind of people an idea of what we're talking about. So let's let's go ahead and play that. I actually have two. We'll play one a little bit later. I have I have I have a yeeky one as well, So but this first one is just kind of a

general okay, see and uh, well we'll go from there. Oh, tedious process of removing the debris, and it's just it's unreal. If anybody knows of anything, this is my mom.

in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. The bomb, made of an ammonium nitrate, fertilizer and diesel fuel, was packed into a rented rider truck parked in a drop off zone at nine o two am. It exploded, killing one hundred and sixty eight people, including nineteen children, and injuring over six hundred The blast destroyed a third of the building and damaged hundreds of nearby structures. McVeigh acted primarily alone, driven by rage over federal actions at Ruby Ridge and Waco, which he saw

as overreaches of power. Terry Nichols, an Army acquaintance, assisted by helping acquire materials and build the bomb at Nichols Farm in Kansas. McVeigh was arrested ninety minutes after the attack during a traffic stop, linked by evidence like bomb residue on his clothes and a rental receipt. Nichols surrendered days later. The FBI concluded it was a domestic terrorist act with no broader conspiracy. McVeigh was convicted on federal murder charges in nineteen ninety seven and executed in two

thousand and one. Nichols received life without parole for federal and state bombing related charges. The attack remains the deadliest act of domestic terrorism in US history. So that's a quick rundown of the official story. So I guess where was it for you? Where the first piece of information where you said, oh, this is bullshit.

Doe to surveillance tape stuff like that. But I think the I know, the emotional mind or maybe it's a better word I'm looking for here, but we'll probably get caught up more in the trying to do and the yiky's and in those sort of stories. And that's what did it for me. I think it's just my Really, the as I said before, I can empathize with the situation and blood the father, the thing is really gets to me. So I don't know that that sort of thing's tugs on my heart strings a lot. So that's

what really did to me. But really, yeky story just I mean, this guy that I mean was reporting to everybody and there's a lot of people claiming around him that he was having issues with the brass around him that he really just didn't buy the story. And then this guy you know, ends up dead in a field about a year and some change after the bombing, after all of this, after fighting with the brass, after you know, being you know there, you know, there's a there's a

letter with a with another person researching these things. But he's found in a he's found He's found in a in a field a mile or a half a mile to a mile and a half away from his car, which is covered in blood.

What were they covering up? I mean, it is and that is probably, I guess probably, Uh. I think one of the things that brings people back to that story over and over again. When it comes to Yiki, what did he see? There's a lot of people who claim

different things. His sister Lashawn claimed that he said something along the lines of seeing evidence of things blowing out as opposed to in the implication there being you know, bombs in the building as opposed to you know, bombs outside of the building, the official narrative being bombs outside the building, because if you have a truck bomb, it is on the outside of the building. Is therefore blowing at like towards the building, blowing in as opposed to

blowing out, which you have bombs inside of it. So there's that, I mean, there's other things that you know, people claim. I know why I had when I had Tanya on this on the show, she brought up the ATF shenanigans and how none of the ATF were in the building. And then there were the all these crazy stories that you know, came out out, these you know, stories of our robics from the ATF, how they actually were in the building and they did this that this

all the different all the the rolodecks of cover stories. Uh, you know that there you know, look and it looks like in all that that looked like this, the pandemonium from the start, there was you know, there were there were reasons to believe that between Terry and I always mess up his name, the doctor, I always want to say Jolly West, but obviously that's the different doctor. But

it's the what is his name? And then a sometimes I want to say the chaplain Poe because that's that's another per story, a name in there that's not right either. But there was a there was another doctor who was working with Yiki who also died under extremely suspicious circumstances. So Uh and the the key point with him and Uh and Yiki, this doctor him is that they were one of the first peoples on this one of the

first people in the scene. The doctor is helping provide you know, health or help or emergency care for people affected on the scene. Terry was obviously one of the first people there. They were trying to get the doctor to provide treatment to atf individuals as the claim that didn't need it. That obviously the implication there to make it look like, oh, you know, now you have documented, Oh I provided medical care for so and so. Oh

he was here providing some sort of documentation. So there's that they think there might be something in the in the realm of there that apparently Terry got into a big argument with some of the one of the ATF guys there as a result of all that. Essentially he seemed to think there were shenanigans afoot, and it's like, why are you guys who clearly weren't here trying to make it look like you were. What is going on?

So apparently he was spooked from the jump. So I think there were probably a number of things that tipped Terry off to was going on, and from there he started doing his own investigation, and I think that only that only that ended up leading to demise. So but at the same time, it did, I guess, kind of wake up a lot of us along the way, since you know, here I am, and uh, Tierry was my entry point into the story.

and maybe it is ridiculous. I don't know, but I mean there are reasons to, you know, I don't know think of Ted as a dubious source. I understand that, but I don't know. I mean, I also am very hip to the program to kill thesis, and it is like, I don't know, if we were to have kill squads of some sort, you'd probably need some pretty sick fucks to do that sort of stuff. So I don't know. Anyways, I guess I digress just kind of who did it.

I don't know. I don't know the exact three letter agency, if you would even consider it to be a three letter agency, or if it's some sort of entity within an entity. I have no idea, but I think someone reached out or I think probably actually a couple of people will probably reach out and touch Terry and took care of that problem. Now that there was a big This is actually newer information that came out during the CNN interview that came out recently from Tina's Thomas Lake.

He wrote a piece on Terry within the past couple of years, which was surprising to say the least, because actually a really good piece. I don't I mean, there's like things I can quibble about, and you know, things that have been pointed out, like Tanya yourself point out

that they did. You know, maybe something to look out for if you are being conspiratorial or skeptical of their reporting is that they did seem to raise up some of the characters that maybe you should be a little bit concerned of as being baddies, as being more maybe not necessarily good characters. Is more like raising them up as uh, you know, I don't know, as sources I guess, and also kind of putting them in a more favorable light,

if that makes sense. So but even even then now that aside, it's like that's a very minor quibble and it's kind of like, I don't know, it was a good it was a good piece of it. I forgot why I even was mentioning the Why was I even mentioning the scene and article?

But Ramona is like the other one that like, I have no idea myself how to get ahold of her. So anytime I try to bring this anytime, you can you know anyone out there knows her? Anything like that knows Ramone McDonald let me know, because she is a big source, someone that would be great to have on the record in a podcast format to talk about a lot of these things, because she had She does show up occasionally as a source, and she was especially you know,

in the early days of the bombing. She's actually a noted character. A lot of people know, uh in the you know, the the narrative of Oklahima City bombing. She showed up occasionally. It was uh, like I said, it was a Ramona McDonald. And she ended up she kind of backed off when I guess she had a slew of personal issues directly related to her speaking out about

the Oklahoma City bombing after it, so she changed. She ended up changing her name, and she got a whole hell of a lot more quiet, to the extent of really not ever getting involved anymore. Really, And but she did contribute a little bit to the most recent CNN article, And in that article she goes into how there were two individuals that Terry was supposed to go meet around the time he disappeared. Now these were feds of some sorts.

She had been she had actually talked to them, met with them sort of semi unofficially as well, these are all reasons. I'd love to talk to her to clear these out to you know, more than just what's printed in print. But anyways, she she claims that he went to go meet with these people. These were some sort of glowies of some sort that Terry seemed to think maybe he could get them to them to listen about whatever, you know, he had. So he was going to you know,

he was going to go to them. In his eyes, these were glowies that were going to listen. He had been trying to get people to listen to him for a while. He had some sort of information these ones were going to listen.

he blew off the meeting. So I would be interested to know, like what change if maybe it was some sort of misunderstanding, but either way, so the original was until before it was originally the thought was that he went to go to some meeting, he was supposed to have some sort of meeting with feds, blew it off, and then you know, the more recent information is that he supposedly did go to the meeting and made a point not to bring his gun. So anyways, I digress.

That's kind of I don't know exactly why I went on, but who did it. I guess the they would be

whoever these FEDS were. He probably went to go meet to probably tell him about the super secret information he had that he probably had been being super secret about not telling anyone about, which is kind of part of the story, which is I think to some extent what got him screwed him over here is you know, he didn't even talk to like Tanya about the specifics she knew something was wrong, like, for example, there's like the famous statement of when she picked him up from the

hospital after the Okam Slee bombing because he got injured saving people. One little detail I left out. He was the first responder. He saved upwards of three people at least. It's a very very, very gross over or underestimate of the people. He'd probably say, but you hurt himself in the process. She picked him up, and when she picked him up, he wasn't it. For one, he was in a rush to get the hell out of there. Who spooked seemed to think someone was he might have been

in danger or something. But one of the first things he said to her when he got in the car was Tanya, it's not what they're telling you or they're lying to I think it might got that a little bit wrong, but eessentually that was a crux of it. And he was a you know, borderline, had tears in his eyes. So I mean, now it was always dodgy about details, and the reason being is he was concerned, you know, it would be that he was concerned that she would know too much.

then it's like, well, okay, a mysterious death. But then you look into exactly how Yeeky passed and it is somebody sending a very clear message like that was brutal, that was it was just heinous.

mile to be questionable. I think it's more a mile and a half. But either way, even in a half mile, the idea that a man who lost two liters of blood and was sickle had sickle cell a nemia was going to travel a half mile into a field and blow his brains out, it's not happening. It's it's not it's not happening, right.

You know, like, how how many of these are we supposed to ignore before we realized like, oh this, this is actually the official story is bullshit?

up having a parole violation later. The The issue was that he didn't want to part of the one of the conditions of the parole was that he couldn't drink, and uh, he said, to hell with that. But he got his buddy. He's not his buddy, his brother Jesse. Jesse tried to do to try to assist him with the you know, pushing back against the parole board, seeing if he can maybe get the sort of amendment to it or something, you know, some way around it. But no, no,

they wouldn't. They wouldn't go for it. They went budge and he just kind of was like, all right, well, I'm gonna drink, so I'm not showing up to any more of these parole meetings because it's like I'm telling you right now, I'm drinking and you ain't let me do it. So like, but I'm gonna drink, so I don't know you know where I am. Come get me whenever you want to get me, I guess.

something along those lines. Now this also but this happened at the same time there was a nationwide hunt for John Doe two going on, which we didn't really touch on John Doe two. We kind of did a little bit, but I guess to kind of quickly touch on that. Literally every single person who saw McVeigh the day of the bombing saw him with another person. So that's that's basically the the the the short of that there like and but for some reason, the official narrative became old

Timmy just blew it up all by himself. I mean, the all by himself was an asterisk, with the assistance you know, in a supportive role by Terry Nichols and you know, I guess sort of by you know, by by forty A who ended up being turning state witness.

But anyways, I digress point being as they were looking for there was a period of time where the FBI actually went along with this John Doe two thing because every single eyewitness said, Hey, this guy was with somebody else, and this is kind of what do you look like?

They described, you know, Okay, honestly it kind of really kind of a lot like me, shorter sockey guy, kind of darkish, but not like a not like a I mean, you could be a minority, like you know, ethnically ambiguous, I guess would be a good way to put it. But like so kind of tan, you know, so kind of tan, muscular, thick necks, you know, not not short. I mean, so he's not as short as I am, so he's probably like supposed to be five seven to

five nine. But anyways, point being, is it? So this was a guy that was seen with him, there was another person seeing with him, seen getting out of a rider truck and everything with him. So another individual with with him. Now, you know, obviously the news gets out. They end up you know, getting John Doe one. Who is who's Timothy McVeigh John Doe two? They never find They go a couple of months of searching him officially, and uh and then they just the official narrative becomes, oh,

he didn't exist. It was some sort of misremembering or some nonsense like that, which makes no sense, uh, because so the claim is that basically literally every eyewitness was wrong, but they were right about the identifying McVeigh because see what they were used to prove McVeigh was there legally speaking, so they will use their word to say that he was there, but not anything else about what they claim about the situation. So anyways, they sart, this is during

the John Doe two hunt. Now you know this this Trinity Feller, he kind of looks he kind of looks a lot like, uh, like John Doe two. Like I said, he's he's a white guy. So in a lot of times John do two is sometimes is you know, described as being like Mexican or or Indian or Middle Eastern or but but uh, Trinity was a white guy. But he kind of had a little bit of a darker tan,

you know, had some other similar features. There was reportedly the John Doe two had like a dragon tattoo on his left forearm or something, I believe, so he had that as well. He also was you know, I mean, this is kind of getting a little bit ahead of ourselves, but there were there is reason to believe that John to two may have been been hanging out when the employ of some bank robbers or had something to do with a group of bank robbers.

facility where they bring these people. That's where they So they end up bringing him for that. This is you know, bear in mind, this is during when they're having this big John Doe tooth Oak thing going on. You know, John Doe two was also a bear. I wanted to mention it was he was thought to have likely have fled the country. So him coming out of Mexico kind of a big deal, so they were on you know, top alert for this stuff at the time. So he

ends up in Oklahoma. So, like I said, he ends up being put in a special like a high security part of the prison and ends up committing suicide. So obviously we see parallels kind of Epstein like despite being in like the you know, the protective unit or whatever it's like, somehow still managed to kill himself. Video goes disappearing all the like like that. So this is an area he shouldn't have been able to kill himself. Found hanging from a Edgejeet. He had cuts, bruises, burns all

over his body. There were also two other inmates there who claimed they heard like screams and things of the like, kind of sounding like torture. And then you wouldn't believe it, but these two guys also died, so before it was all said done, those guys died as well. So they they one of them I believe was a drug overdose, and one of them got the old saddie SADS as well and decided to kill himself just like trying to do.

It's just weird how SADS seems to be contagious like this. So, yeah, we have two we have trying to do himself dying, and then the two inmates who claim they heard sounds that sounded you know, something along the lines of struggles, torture, whatever. Those guys died. There also was, on top of all that, as if there wasn't enough death going around, we had a videographer who was an expert videographer who was how

do I put this? Comparently the FBI, I guess, had come to him to ask for his expert opinion on essentially, if there's any way that the videos that were supposed to have been there and witnessed the death of Kenneth trying to do which weren't there. As I mentioned earlier, these things magically disappeared or weren't. I don't think they were recording or whatever. I forget the specifics of it.

Either way, they got this expert videographer to look at this and go, hey, look at this, dude, Dad, Is there any way that it could have not recorded or not worked or whatever the reason was, for any other reason other than manual like one of us doing it, Like, is there something? Is there a way to explain this? That was kind of like a oopsies and they go no, go that his expert opinion is no. They were also really insistent that this none of this was written down

or anything like that. This guy he finds, you know, he ends up contacting Jesse, who is Kenneth's brother, who happens to be a lawyer, and he tells him about all this that the FBI came to him for. He was willing to testify for for Jesse Uh. And this guy died too. He did have a heart attack, so to be fair, he could have just died of natural causes. But I don't know, you can never be schitzo enough.

And we know about the old Church committee and the heart attack guns, so I don't know, it's not outside the realm of possibility. I mean, I don't know if I feel like they wouldn't brush off the heart attack gun for a situation like that, but maybe they would.

McVeigh also contacted Jesse Trendo to tell him that he thought that the Uh that his brother, that Jesse, that Ken died as a result of FBI mistaking his brother for Richard Lee Guthrie, who you know a lot of people think may have been John Doe.

a larger network that contributed to this. So anyways, Guthrie also died, by the way, committed suicide in jail, because you know, around the same time that Jesse or that Ken was in jail, Richard Lee was. Richard was as well, So it looks like I think it almost looks like a left not left hand not talking to the right hand, or just not even being aware of what's going on. I'm sure I don't know how information was dispersed, but they may not even have been aware of who exactly

they were looking for. It may not have been perfect information dispersed amongst the Glowees. So you know, they may have very well thought that when they came across you know, Jesse or Ken trying to do that this was in fact Richard Lee Guthrie or someone you know matching description that was something close to them. I mean, they may not even have known the name. They may just known, hey, this guy fits him almost perfectly. But I mean, if you look at pictures of Richard Lee Guthrie and Jesse

trying to look very much alike. Also, both of them are very similar to the descriptions of John Doe too. Anyways, you know, Richard Giddy Guthrie, like I said, he also died in prison. He had made a lot of claims saying he was kinda kind of blow the lid off of it. He was talking to a lot of journalists and stuff, and then he died in prison from the SADS.

The interesting thing about the story though, is that the you know, I've always thought the the the real big takeaway from this is just kind of like, I don't know, there's something really poetic about you taking like a heroin addict, like bank robber, and like the fit, and the government just like murdering him and like and oh hey, look he screwed up he this guy actually, like you probably looked at this guy and thought that no one cared about him, that he means nothing, and he's just com No,

his brother is a lawyer, and you just set him on a you know, war path to go after you hit the rest of his life.

bad at keeping secrets. I should be more professional and stop like telling at a time when I have something big, but I just get too excited and I can't help but telling you guys.

City or Elohim whatever, the the Elohim City connection. Basically, anyone who doesn't know that the white supremacist compound up in Elohim, Elohim whatever in Oklahoma is often cited as a planning hub for the bombing. Informant Carol Howe reported that residents, including Andreas Strassmere, discussed bombing federal buildings. Conspiracy theorists argue the government suppressed this link to avoid exposing a wider far right network or its own intelligence failures.

So we have my fucking point was we're talking about Eloheim. So we then we have the you have Langen who you know, Donna Langen is that they became later known as because this is a truan right here. For funny enough, I believe one of the first ones who ended up being I don't know if they actually received it or they were wanting to receive it, but essentially receive a

government funded a transition care or something like that. They were like one of the first ones to either receive it or be dude, I forget the specifics on it, but it's just kind of funny. This is one that was you know, thrown around as like landmark, you know, progressive, and it's like, you know that was a neo nasty bank robber, right like probably caused the Glama City bombing to some degree. But anyways, so that that Langan who

is Man has an insane story. Two CIA spooks and their immediate family, their dad being the most notable one, their sister being the other one. I don't think, I don't really know what all she really did or anything of significance. Of dad was like the head dude in like Vietnam, the head CIA guy literally was there at like the height of the before and after and at the height of a coup, you know.

you know dad, or it's just it's crazy. Like Langen's story, his dad was clearly involved in like Operation Phoenix and literally was seemed to be involved in a lot of the kill squad type stuff going on over there, but a big wig. He also saw the monks that lit themselves on fire, self immolated. He dude had a crazy, crazy early life. I think his dad died at a pretty young age and he he went through the Ringer.

So we have the ar there. We have this weird I know, it's been referred to sometimes as like a cult. I guess you could say the loo he Heights or whatever up there that they kind of under the underfall, under the tutelage of Grandpa Mallar, who's been an FBI and formed in the past. I don't think he really you know, it's not like something he ever really hides from. So yeah, it's a it's an odd group of individuals.

We have Dennis Mayhon who was along with Strasmeyer, who was another person up in the up in the neck of l Em City that you know, hepurportedly went with uh. Strasmeyer, Mayhon and Carol House supposedly cased out Hookuma City. Uh and uh, you know, I want to say multiple times into one of the buildings they cased was the Murra Federal building itself, the courthouse.

never ended up happening. But these people did actually look at the same federal building, Uh yeah, to actually attack.

during the blast, which is incredibly weird. I mean, so this building had like tons of different federal offices and then supposedly the people being targeted were just not there that day.

less somewhere someone in that realm. So it wasn't like an obscene amount of people that worked in that office. So it's not like it's not crazy unbelievable they couldn't

all be there. But it was nine to oh was it nine oh two, I think when the explosion happened or something, So it's like it was nine in the morning, So it's like, I don't know, I would assume in the nineties, so I assumed that, like, yeah, I mean, even if you are a super secret agent, I assume there would be at least some desk workers and stuff doing something at nine in the morning in the office, so right, you know, I don't know.

for Timmy to enact as revenge. But he didn't even bother to do the intel to see if anyone would even be there, you.

out for nobody or nothing like that. And then uh, then I guess. I know they went down the hall and ask somebody else and it was like the you know, the number two guy there in the office or wherever, and he was like, yeah, I'm not lying for anybody. Like no, that happened, and he went on record and was like, yeah, no, like we were told to keep an eye out for these people like that there's some

some bad humbreries coming through or whatever. I mean, obviously they didn't say that, but you know what I mean, the idea that they were told to like it. It was even weirder too, because it was like keep an eye out for something or it was something weird along those lines. It was also like a weird like kind of weird ass kind of warning. Is that like that's useless, But either way, it's a it's still uh yeah, it's

it's it's bizarre. Yeah. And you're talking about the bomb squad and the uh I mean that that is an interesting component. I think this plays into the idea of there being two rider trucks because the bomb squad. There were claims that people saw bomb squad trucks, particularly like over around the courthouse. You know, they were claims that people saw like what looked like people with almost like I want to say, they were like almost like a

little scanny things like looking around. These are all things that seemed to match up with someone almost looking for I don't know, like a tracking device. So they maybe had a vehicle or something. Because one of the things thrown around. This was probably some sort of sting. But this is where the idea of multiple rider trucks come along, and there is research. I forget the minutia of why that seems to prove it, but this comes down to the ins and outs of times and eyewitness reports and

when they actually got the the the rider truck. I want to say, it's like there were eyewitness claims they saw a rider truck before the purchase of the rider truck that ended up blown up, so that this would imply there was another rider truck. But what would be the purpose of a second rider truck? Why would you need it? I don't know. Maybe it was too small, that was one that's thrown around one. Maybe one was too small or whatever they had to get a different size.

I don't know. But one theory that I like is let's just say that this was some sort of ATF sting or something like that. I mean, there was what was it a I think it was called deep holemite or something. There was some sort of atf thing going on, not to I want to say it was shortly before that or something where they were looking into rider truck bombs type of explosions or whatever. I totally what was I even talking about? Totally fucking I'm spacey today, dude.

and he he's you know, driving the truck. And then the how this is, let's say, how this is supposed to go is they pull up to the spot and then you know, timmy fa gets out and John Doe two pulls out of the truck and then he freaking then he he pulls around, he yanks it up, and then you're under arrest and you've been stopped, and like, now we have this cool moment in front of the courthouse, and now we get a you're like, oh, they stopped the bomb and you know, he you know, there really

wasn't it was, you know, it was a fake bomb or something like that. Well, it looks like perhaps maybe that's not the case, and maybe there was actually a an initial rider truck that had the uh a little uh, you know, the obligatory little tracker for this thing. And let's who's to say they didn't take that one out for a joy ride somewhere else that that morning, and between the the slew of different John Doe two that

we have, maybe they didn't help facilitate this. They didn't take the Feds out for a while goose Chase while Timothy McVeigh shows up at a different time and a different building with a different explosive device. It kind of seems like a good way to kind of I don't know, kind of thrillial switch aaroo on the fetti poos if this was some sort of sting. This is just one

that's thrown around a lot. I think it's a I mean, it kind of matches up with the reports of the bomb squads and then the multiple rider truck theories.

do with the Clinton Whitewater scandal. Is there is there any credence to this?

it up. I don't really because this comes down to, uh, they were files, and I know I believe I vaguely recall there were maybe one, maybe two claims of some sort of like it looked like fed's were maybe taking files or taking things, whether those files can maybe the air, but I mean the idea that they would be rooting through some things or procuring taking some stuff, whether it be explosive or whatever, unexploded ordnance, because that's another part

of the story that we haven't really touched on. I'd I don't know, it's not that crazy. I mean the documents I find to be kind of like it in the easy culprit and almost like kind of seems too easy. I mean, maybe it's right, I just I also feel like I don't know. I know, it was the nineties, so I mean, they probably weren't completely digitized, but like, I don't know, you would assume if it was any sort of important government document, they would have backups in

other places, right, Oh, I mean, I don't. I just it just it never really seemed to have a lot of explanatory power for me, So yeah, I don't. I don't know. The idea that like they would do it to take out some documents just seems a little ridiculous to me. But I don't know, right, it's just the

one everyone people always bring up. But I just think it's like almost like a just trying to shoot to shoehorn the Clintons into it, which like, I mean, you don't really which I will say, I guess if you are someone who's trying to make this like a sexy like Clinton list thing or something thing, it doesn't fit neatly into that. I mean there is that there, but not in that juicy like you know, like, oh, here's this, Oh here's this person that Clinton killed, and you're like,

I think it's more in direct than that. I mean, there is the Merrick Garland did go visit with Hillary Clinton before he went to go start his trial. So literally the the you know, the thing to know here is that he flew So this is Merrick Garland, who was our attorney general. This was like kind of like one of his like really breakthrough breakout cases for him. This was like really kind of where he cut his

teeth right here was on right this thing. I forget what his role was, but this is you know, it's kind of up and comer. This is what made him. This is why he got hooked up. Let's be real. But he had to fly back to DC and then fly back all within the course of twenty four hours to have a in person meeting with Hillary Clinton. Discuss saying what we don't know. We know this because Richard Booth Foya the White House visitor logs, and so we're

able to confirm that they visited. So he flew up from Oklahoma to DC and then flew back within the course of twenty four hours to visit with Hareley Clinton before the biggest case of his entire life to talk about for his legal coverage. I guess you could say, of what was her husband's you know, I guess penultimate probably a moment of his. I mean, he even said himself that if it wasn't for the Oklahoma City bombing, I don't think I would got re elected. So yeah,

a lot going on there, So I really do. I think she likely probably did pull him aside and probably tell him like, Hey, this is these are the these are the beats, this is what we're doing. This is what's happening here. You know, don't call her outside the lines or there will be issues. See, you got your orders, have a good one.

an Arkansas state official. Eventually, the Justice Department and Independent Council launched investigations. The outcome was that neither Bill nor Hillary faced prosecution for their involvement in Whitewater, but their public statements about the matter and the handling of documents that went missing and later reappeared, came under intense scrutiny. Their partners in the real estate investment were Jim McDougall

and his then wife, Susan. Jim McDougall was convicted of fraud charges for making bad loans, and he died of heart disease in a Texas prison. Susan was convicted of fraud in connection with obtaining a three hundred thousand dollars federally backed small business loan. She refused to answer grand jury questions in the Whitewater affair and was held in contempt of court, spending eighteen months in jail. Bill Clinton pardoned her before he left the White House in early

two thousand and one. The idea that this was done solely for the purpose of getting rid of those documents, I mean, that seems absurd, but I have seen people make that claim.

maybe that's more to it than I think. It's just that, like that's always the one that people always like, oh my god, this And I'm like, as someone who spent a shitload time looking in this didn't really come up right, And I.

what about this? And you're like, these are questions that like, but then you're actually someone who's like a researcher, you don't really You're like, that's not really something we put a whole lot of much into so right, I mean, I don't really even know really many people who have serious reachers who put a ton into that that I'm aware of. I have seen any sort of threads, articles,

anything along that. I've seen it casually mentioned here and there, but never anything that's put any sort of serious oomph behind it that I'm aware of. I'd be happy to see if anyone out there knows it, and feel free to tag me into it, because I do get this question quite a bit, so it would be cool if I had something more to come with.

They suggested additional explosives were planted inside, implying a more sophisticated operation than a Cavey and Nichols could have managed alone. So what's what's your position on the multiple bombs or I guess the bomb inside the building versus outside. Where's your stands?

the parking garage who looked like they were planting. And they described it in different ways, but essentially it sounds like they're describing someone with like wires and like a putty and blocks and sounds like someone putting Sea four. So there were a couple of people making claims like that.

I mean, you know, obviously the bombing analysis, like you pointed out, I mean there is I mean when it comes to the bombs, I mean, like I said, there was Lashawn that said that, you know, the idea of it blowing out is supposed to in there's you know, there's not the only person who's made those sort of

claims about seeing things along those lines. There was the degree to which they were being crazy about not letting people back in like part of Yeeky's stories that he was insistent on coming back and trying to take pictures and Tanya went with him. They got shoot off from the site. He was really focused on the daycare for some reason. So what he was trying to look at, I don't know. One thing thrown out frequently is looking

for maybe unexploded ordinances or something along those lines. So yeah, this is something thrown in along a lot. I mean, I by no means it's not something that I'm like, I'm like beholden to in any way. I wouldn't be like it would in no way is like integral to any sort of beliefs I have about the Ogalencity bombing. If it's not the case, but I do lean towards

that probably being the case. It just seems to be i'd just between the claims of seeing people in there, I mean some some of the other you know, things that seem to imply that there were claims that you know, show things that imply maybe bombs inside. I mean, there is even the ATF did stop the uh, the search, multiple the rescue efforts multiple times for unexploded ordinance, their claims of unexploded ordances in the wreckage. So this is usually passed off as being oh, the ATF was improperly

storing explosives there. So but then a lot of people will say, oh, that's because they at C four or whatever. So you know, kind of it's kind of you know, a pick your own story here. But either way, I mean I think you look at it, it doesn't it's a not a uniform, you know, explosion pattern. It does seem to be kind of odd. There's a lot, I mean, I'm not gonna get into the weeds of you know, the specifics. I mean, I've read a Bond show on

the other go into bombing analyison. So I tend to lean towards there were bombs in the building, but like, it's not something I can prove, and like, I don't know it wouldn't You wouldn't blow my world away if it was otherwise. But I do think there were probably bombs in the building.

bad and also take a camera with him? You know that that was just something that always struck me as odd. Real quick, before we get out of here, because I don't want to keep you too long. I did say that I did have another, uh another clip real quick, and it is a yeeky clip. So let's let's go ahead and run that real quick before we get out of here.

Two military consultants were to work hand in hand with civilian police agencies to quote unquote quiet anyone who was deemed a security risk quote unquote in parentheses, we would be government paid assassins. Three many other details. To verify these last two, see the enclosed article or watch again the movie Lethal Weapon. It also gives you new insight on things like Waco, et cetera. They were murdered by hitmen. That is from our illustrious, illustrious, illustrious Timothy McVeigh right

there to his sister. And this is years before though goll City bombing. So what this was about, right?

there's that. There's other things. He claimed his first lawyers as well, something similar to this, who then later then told Stephen Jones is like a main defense attorney that like you, You're gonna totally have a completely different like outlook on like the legal system and like the whole system.

After this and like there's just there's multiple things. He made claims to his was it David Paul Hammer, I think his his you know, his one of his buddies in a in jail, you know, Timmy mcvade made claims

to him that, you know, essentially along these lines. He dude even wrote a whole book about it, which is probably one of the next ones I'm up reading, is about like what really happened to him being kind of a glowy agent and what really happened he you know, supposedly McVeigh gave his hotel all to David Paul Hammer, and so that's supposedly the real story for those who are interested, according to David Paul Hammer, which who is kind of actually a noted con artist. So bear all

that in mind. But you know, so I don't know, I actually do kind of, you know, with me saying that, though I kind of lean towards I haven't read that yet, but from my understanding of that book, I kind of leaned towards his sequence of events, and I think he might have been telling the truth that Neil McVeigh did, you know, kind of tell him all this stuff, because it does match up with things he was telling other

people as well. So, yeah, it's just a bizarre thing to tell someone years before the bombing that you know, and this guy did you know this is something we didn't tell the audience, but he you know, Tim McVay was in the military. He went to a desert storm or you know, or golf or whatever. I forget, always mix up the names, but one of those ones over in Iraq. He got out, went to go join special forces.

The official story is that he failed and he got sent and he end up them becoming disillusioned with the military, ended up getting out short not too much longer after that, according to him, and in this letter, he the real story is that no, they pulled him aside and said, hey, we need to be mister super secret agent man. We

need you to be sheep dipped. We need you to on paper quit the military and kind of create this legend as a disaffected veteran and uh, you know, you you're gonna go around the country kind of make a name for yourself, you know, kind of hobnob with all these uh major figures in the you know, the right wing, and uh, that's that's what you're gonna do. And then lo and behold, he ends up doing that. So it's a weird thing to lie about, especially since that ends

up being the story of your life. This is a guy who was kind of forest scumping it with like all of the major right wing figures of that time, Like he really was. If you read ablerration in the heart Rate Land of the Real and which really does focus a lot on that period between him getting out of the military and him, you know, obviously the bombing, It is like this dude was dude was doing. Dude was on some ship. Dude, dude was on one. Uh So like this dude, this dude was working I believe

for Caltech. Uh he when he got out, he was in the Guard, which is pretty which is notable if you're concerned about sheep dipped, because that would be logistically speaking, that's great for sheep dipping. It also makes it so now you are in a different legal status to where you are able to do domestic operations because you are in the Guard as opposed to active duty. You are a subsidiary of your state government now as opposed to your the federal government. So it puts you in a

different status to where you can do domesticated things. This no longer is an issue where we run into like old laws. We're like, no, we can't be having the military operating domestically like those sort of laws.

theories from because he seemed to think that. Now, I will admit I think that Timothy McVay thinks or thought he wasn't gonna die. But I I'm of the opinion he probably died. I mean, I wouldn't be like astounded if they if they like pulled some crazy Houdini glowy stuff. But I kind of am a little little doubtful. I think they're just like, Yo, this guy is a liability, let's get rid of him, right.

him into witness protection. But maybe this goes like even way deeper than we know, and you know, he was like super like way more important. I don't know. I don't think so, so I'm kind of with you on that, but uh who knows. But on that, let's uh, let's wrap this up and uh let everyone know where they can find you. What what you have coming up, what you want people to go check out, whatever you want to shout out.

my weekly show on Tuesdays at nine thirty pm. There's a call in show, and then I also do a daily show Monday through Friday, like a kind of a normal daily show. Take the weekends off all that, but usually we do those around ten am Eastern. Kind of just talk about current events, some old stuff too, so we do. It's just kind of a hangout. We kind of like a research environment hang out environment as well,

kind of a combination of it too. So it's a fun time, good place to hang out, good place to chill. If you guys have stuff that you you know, research stuff, you'll be digging to share it there and we'll go over it together. But yeah, we have a lot of fun over there. You can follow me on Twitter at twer gang Jose.

I think I'm gonna get him scheduled sometime soon, but I don't have a date yet, So any any sort of big guess or anything like that.

all kind of in the same realm of stuff. It will tend to be scheduled right after the Morning Dump because I actually like watching the Morning Dump and I don't want to stream until after that, so it's a good way for us to not conflict or whatever.

followers and everything. And hey, it's free. So if you found this valuable at all, go ahead, like I said, hit the like, subscribe, leave a comment, thumbs up, follow all of these different things, and the more people that end up doing that, the better content I can ultimately end up bringing people in the future and in the

near future. So other than that, there's no more updates as far as I know, except for the next stream will actually be Sunday, not Tuesday, so that's just going to be a chill Monday morning with Rise to Liberty, So come hang out, chill out, check that out. Other than that, let's see here. I think I got everything

closed up on my end now. The one last thing I wanted to ask you, Jose real quick, was what is the one thing out out of everything, out of all the theories and everything, what do you think the most important aspect of Oklahoma City has been or is.

is a major event. So like, uh, and this is kind of I know there's something too that uh being aware of this and like, uh, I don't know. It's almost like you're we're kind of working backwards and deprogramming ourselves of the nonsense out there. So I think it's something worthwhile. It's almost like you're getting to the root of the programming and like kind of seeing uh, seeing

these zeros and ones behind the matrix kind deal. So I think it's a worthwhile for people to kind of dig into it, especially you know, if you have anything in common with us. I mean, I don't know where what in our like a thirties so in that rough age span, I don't know. It just this is a thing that's really affected your life a lot. This is a precursor to like along the nine eleven stuff we saw a Patriot Act. I mean, this is just general the you know, strategy attention that led stuff that led

up to nine to eleven. I know, I just think there's a these are also as I mean, I mentioned Merret Garland earlier, so it's like, I mean, you see who's who's the other one. There's another attorney former attorney general who plays a part in this is more than the trying to do side of things. He was helping with the cover up. I can't think he was a fast and furious guy. I can't think of his name

right now, the black dude whatever. But anyways, so you know, we see these people that these swamp creatures that it kind of got their start, kind of made their bones, and I just think it's kind of one of those ones they act like, oh this means nothing, this is so long ago, but you think that the characters involved and it's like really a lot of those same people are still around and if not them, they're like direct proteges and likely things are the same. Exact protocols and

practices are in place in most things. So this is also really good, like rosettas known for understanding how things are done. Because this was the nineties, it's not that long ago that it takes a while for these guys to change their mannerism. So yeah, I also think it's a one that I think they I don't know, I feel like they're a little bit particularly sloppy and in

certain interesting ways. I've brought this up a few times that I think there was some sort of interesting crossroads of like where technology was and then also where it wasn't at that time that made it so that like it kind of had a blind spot for the FED.

So where they were kind of sloppy, it was kind of like they didn't anticipate, like the the tech was there to document things, but the tech wasn't there to collate in network things quite like we have the ability to now, so the ability to document and track that stuff there, but now we're at the time where now we're able to collectivize this information and organize it in

meaningful ways. So whereas we didn't have that back then, but we had the means to hold onto the information, and I don't think they were thinking about the future and like, oh, we need to be extra careful not be a sloppy So there was a lot of stupid stuff that they were able to get away with back in the days, like Kennedy and stuff like that, because it's kind of like, you know, but there was a

lot less things tracking your every little move. So I don't know, I just think it's I just find it really interesting story that it doesn't really get enough shine and has a lot of explanatory power for the spooky world we live in.