You're listening to a Mama Mia podcast. Mama Miya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on. I'm MEA Friedman and the team at Mama and MEA are bringing you over one hundred hours of the very best of the podcasts that we've made from across our podcast network. Do you know that we have something like fifty six different podcasts here at Mamma Mia.
And if you follow this one, we have selected some others that you might like to listen to as well, and we've also brought back some of our most popular and most riveting stories from No Filter. Kerry Tucker's story is one of those stories that really sticks with you. And maybe it's because she experienced something that most of us would consider our worst nightmare. She was in prison for four and a half years. But the funny part is she loved it. She actually loved being in prison.
I interviewed Kerrie in twenty eighteen, and in the years since and then she's continued to be an advocate for women, both women who were in prison and those women after their release. And I know that her story is going to stay with you like it did with me. I was just I had so many questions you'll be shocked to hear, and Kerrie answered all of them.
Even though you've gotten out of prison, you still have to serve time. You know that you're still going to be judge. You're going to be held accountable for that crime for your rest of your life. And I'm the first one to say absolutely not.
From the mom of mea podcast network, I'm Meya Friedman and this is no filter, real stories that will make you lean in. How do you prepare to go to prison and what's life like when you get there? How is a mother do you tell your two little girls that they aren't going to see you for anywhere up to seven years. Carrie Tucker was jailed in two thousand and four for one of the biggest white collar crimes
committed by a female in Victoria. She'd been stealing money from her employers, and she owned up to it, was found guilty, and she spent four and a half years behind bars in a maximum security prison. When Carrie arrived in jail, she was utterly terrified and totally clueless about what was going to happen to her next. From sex to violence, friendships and babies. And drug addiction and making
cups of tea for murderers. Life is very big and very complicated on the inside, and it's also very different to the way you might imagine it to be. In fact, the most surprising part of this story is that at the end of her sentence, Kerry Tucker actually asked if she could stay in prison. This story is so interesting and you're gonna love it. Carrie, tell me about the day you got arrested.
It's funny when I get asked that question, because there's two different memories. I knew that I was about to be arrested, you know, I just didn't know when That waiting was just terrific. I didn't know that they'd had me under surveillance for a week. One must remember that this was a really big crime in a very small town. Anywhere else, they wouldn't have put me under surveillance because you know, I wasn't a violent offender and I was
sitting at home with my daughters. I went to the gym, and they arrested me at the gym, so that was really good. So that day, you know, being arrested, you know, there's a couple of things that I learned from that, because I was very compliant, I knew that I'd done the wrong thing. I wanted to own up to it. I felt, if you're going to be big enough to do this sort of stuff, then own up to it
and just go through the process and whatnot. But there are a lot of things that people need to realize that in that as soon as I was taken back to the station, they actually said to me, you know, if you don't confess, we're going to get too uniformed officers to go up to the children's school and preschool and put them in foster care. Now, there were two things about that was that I didn't know they couldn't
do that, so it was a bluff. And I sang like a bird anyway, so I had full intentions of it. So it was sort of a mute point. But what it did made me realize is that, you know, a lot of times when I used to sit back and think, well, police don't use these sort of tactics, you know, I actually saw firsthand. So a lot of women that say they were treated certain ways, I can say, you know, but that's not everyone in the police force.
Obviously, where did they take you from the gym.
Back to the police station and then back out to my house. When we got out to the house, there was this great, big truck and about eight or nine police cars. It looked like a crime scene. As they were searching your house, they were removing every no, no, no, they just removed everything. They gutted it. They took everything that I had as restitution. I hadn't ever been charged yet, let alone tried or found guilty or whatnot. I hadn't even been interviewed. So I literally was back out there.
They were gutting the house.
So they took everything because they thought they might have been bought with the proceeds. Yes, crimes, because you'd embezzled money from your employe.
Absolutely. Yeah.
So at the time of your arrest, you had two little girls. How old were they?
They were five and seven?
And you talked about the time between knowing you'd been caught and then being arrested.
Yep.
I've always wondered what that time is like in terms of preparing. Essentially, you knew you were going to jail.
Yes, but but knowing that and actually having it happen are two different things. You know, that time, I was just waiting. I can remember. It was like I was watching myself in the land room. You know, I can still see it now if I look into my memory, someone was watching me, just sitting and waiting and going through the motions. You know. I'd tuck the kids away with their dad sort of things so that, you know,
if anything happened, they were with their dad. So I didn't want that used against me or to have to worry about that. The one thing that I couldn't do, And to this day it's still sort of, you know, make makes me sort of a little uneasy. As I couldn't tell the girls that I was leaving them. It didn't matter how I tried to gloss it up, It didn't matter how I tried to approach it. I couldn't do it. As and as fearless as I am, not, No,
I absolutely couldn't. I left that up to you know, their father makes.
You couldn't because it was too confronting for you.
Yeah, and then yep, I can't even talk about it.
It was just so difficult. So it was it was that I unfortunately left up to my ex husband, so it was easier, and I think it worked out that way better anyway, because they were eased into the thought process that I'd gone to More Durid to see the family and then something had happened, and something had happened, and so you know, it sort of dragged out for a little while before while mummy was gone, and then we sort of moved into that that having to tell them that I'm actually in prison.
You were actually at the gym to try to build up your strength to prepare for prison.
And again, you know, this is what I go to a lot of pains to talk about. You know about prison?
Is it?
In my mind? It was everything from the movie.
So I, yes, did you watch Prisoner?
No amazing?
How old are you at this stage?
Forty? Real life begins at forty, So in one way, I was just about to turn forty. I had my forties in prison.
I've jumped ahead. I want to ask you about your first day arriving at prison. Were you so scared? No?
But one of the reasons is with the women. It backs up and you go into police holding cells around Melbourne, and as one woman is released from prison, someone from the police holding cells in the order that they arrived goes out to the prison. So I was there for NELLI so the women's prisons are full always.
In fact, they've just probably a whole up.
They've just built another another block of cells out there as well.
So you spent how long in the holding cells?
Three weeks? You know, at least that was horrific. Because the police holding cells are run by the police. Now there's a big difference between police and corrections officers because the police are the police and the corrections officers are civilians that have done a six week training course. The police's job is thankless and I absolutely understand that and respect it. And in the Maraban holding cells, I was treated very very well, except for a female officer there.
But you know, it's a really hard place. It's all concrete. You can't wear, you know, socks, you can't wear shoes. They used to just hose it out with a fire hose at six o'clock in the morning. This was winter and it was you know that the blankets all had women had lice, everyone was menstruating.
It.
It was just dreadful and if you needed pads or tampons whatever, you had to ask an officer and they bring you one. You know, they didn't just put it in the cell for you know, it was just.
Horrible, so quite dehumanizing.
Yep, yep. And I was in there with some old school heavies. You know, what does that mean? They'd been in prison hard times, and they knew all the people that needed to be known. You know. They were movies and shakers, you know, they you know, and sort of mucked with a lot of these you know.
Did they look as scary as you're making them sound.
Ah, No, because it's hard because there were some of them had you know, lots of tacts and whatever else. So that was a bit confronting to me, which I always assigned it as being tough. But they're also going through withdrawal, so I saw their vulnerabilities as well.
You know, because a lot of them were taking drugs.
Yeah. Yeah, they were all heroin addicts, you know, so so then they were going through withdraw so there was about as sick as you can be, you know. And so I saw both sides of that. And I've and I've always wondered, always wondered when I was in there that they could be so so weak and so sick yet still worry about how I was going, you know, because I was a newbie. I was you know, and that showed me a lot about the women and how women tend to look after each other.
Were you the only white collar criminal in those holding sound? Yes?
Yeah, And they knew straight away, you know, the nails gave it away well, you know, and I just didn't have the appearance of being a street criminal, so to speak.
And are you still in your active car?
I was, actually yes, I was. They thought I'd been done for shoplifting, you know. I was one of these you know, privileged women that you know, still needed something in their life. And I was like, no, No.
The women that you were in the holding cell with, what kinds of things were they there for?
Or on drugs? Drug charges? One was on a violent you know, a road rage thing, I think, but they were all related to being addicted to drugs, you know. So whether it be robbery, there was a fight on a platform or something over drugs and whatever, generally drugs. And you'll find that with most women, in the greater majority of women in prison, and it's such a sad thing because they don't want to be drug addicts, you know.
But I would I've put this question a lot out there in the sense that if you've lived the lives that they have lived and then they end up being drug addicts. They're victims before they become perpetrators. And that's not an excuse, it's a fact. It's a research fact. And most you know, as opposed to men men men men, you know, they don't know their aggressives. You know, they'll get into a drug feud or you know, a turf
war or something like that. You know, and they don't generally have an intimate relationship, whereas women, you know, they more often than not have an or had a relationship with their aggressors. They're violent, you know, perpetrator, and that person's probably told them I love you at least once in their life. And that could be the rapist father,
it could be the domestic violence husband or partner. It could be you know, the brother, the priest, this, that and the other, you know, and a lot of the girls are then you know, they're victims of incest or rape or sexual abuse. Then they're turfed out on the street as soon as they start talking about it. They get onto drugs, then they have to commit crime. And they're more of a nuisance to society than they are a threat to society. And while I was in prison.
There were no specialist programs for individual rape incest. There wasn't even domestic violence programs when I was there.
I can't imagine how many women in prison, just about everyone sexual abuse or domestic violence.
A very small minority aren't and they're the true criminals in my mind.
When you arrived in prison, what was your experience, I mean, after the holding cells, it must have. Was it like arriving at a balley resort.
Totally totally, except except I it was a prison had been locked down, and it was and then by the time we got you know, it takes a long time to be processed into a prison, so it was dark and we were escorted over to this unit. Now at the time, I don't know what unit was what, And I was put into a disabled celt because again the prison was full. It had a dinner, and it had a pillow, and it had shower. We didn't have to
keep pushing the button and it has shampoo. And I was like, oh my god, this is this is what heaven is going to be like, you know. And then next morning, the next morning, the most terrifying thing you can do is when they come around and they open the doors to let you out. They let everyone in the prison out. I had no idea what was on the other side of that door. I didn't know what was prison as much as I come from the police holding cells, and I was sort of rough and ready,
you know. Now, I didn't know what the big girls' school was like. And as I opened that door, I was I can remember standing at the door, going, just do it, you know this, just do it. And so I pushed it open a little bit and this giant woman just just pulled the doors off their hinges and said, you know good, I my name is Robin. Let's go for a walk. And I was like, and she was twice or so, and I'm like, yeah, I was, you know,
I agreed with it. I was a very agreeable person all of a sudden, and I said, off we go. And we walked outside and she said, this is Bomber and I looked at Bomber and I realized it was because she followed Essendon and then there was Sparky, and
Sparky wasn't an electrician. So she turned around. She said, you know, Bombers threatened, you know, she blows up airports and things like that, and judges and things and sparky lights, big fires and things like that, and I was like, and I was onder the fact that I went up to one of the offices and I said, I'm not sure. Call me old fashion, but I'm starting to suspect that I'm in the unit for the criminally insane. And she said she just sawt of looked at me, and she said,
what makes you think that? And I looked over and I said, I said, that woman over there is drawing a face on her pillow and she's talking to her. And I said, I don't know, I'm just suspicious. Call me, call me old fashion, and she said, yeah, no you are. She said, it's just that, you know, am I insane? Because apparently only the insane people don't know they're insane? So I thought, am I one of them?
My goodness?
And they said they said no, look, the other place is full. You're just going to be here for a couple of days. And so that was my introduction to prison. And again, you know, after that, working that out and sort of getting to know people and putting your face out there as the new person, you know, then the wonder because it's such a place that doesn't change, so as soon as you see new faces. That's the only thing in your world that changes. So you've got to just get in amongst it.
You're in a high maximum security women's prison. Why maximum security, because.
Where there's such a small population of women in prison in Victoria anyway, there's a maximum security prison. You only need the prison, you only need one prisoner in there to be maximum security, for the whole place to be maximum security. The only other place we have is Taran Gauer and it's minimum. It's not medium, it's minimum, and it's right out towards Bendigos.
But I would have thought you would have been minimum security.
I mean it was you have to be sentenced first a white collar crime, but you have to be sentenced first. So I was on remand for eighteen months. So while you're on remand, your maximum security and it's only you.
Remind me the part between being charged and being sentenced.
Yeah, you're in prison awaiting your trial.
Okay, So no bail for you, no.
No, And so they hold you because they have enough evidence to support going to trial. It's how long your trial gets to go to court, and on the bigger cases it's usually out in months to two years. So your maximum security. The minimum security prison has no fences, so only people on very short sentences that if they know they're not going to run the risk of running away. You wouldn't put someone up there on murder, you know,
in twenty years, because they'll run. So you've only got this one prison that holds everyone, So everyone in it is maximum security. Even though once I was sentenced, I could have gone to Tarangouer, but I didn't want to. I had a really important role at the maximum security prison, and to me, it wasn't maximum. It was just my prison.
How is it different from what you expected?
Because it's a funny place as well. Once you settle in and you know where you stand, I suss that out very very quickly. I have a good intuition and whatnot. I'm also very interested in women. I was also very much one of them. I never set myself aside from them. Whether it was a drug crime, whether it was murder, whether it was whatever. I was right in there with them,
you know. So I didn't Sometimes in prison, white collar people contend to separate themselves and go, well, you know, I didn't harm anyone, and I didn't do this and that the other and because you don't actually get your hands dirty. That's that's today's nail. That's a sure fire way of getting the compound to turn against you. You know. So I was very much a part of them, and I you know, I liked a great deal of the women. Some of them I couldn't stand, but like any group
of yeah, exactly, that's that's my point. But it's it's I liked the vast majority of women. Once they come off there withdrawals and they come off their drugs and whatever else, that's when they really need help, because that's when reality for them really sort of settles in. And you know, so I liked the woman.
Did you have to suspend judgment?
That's a good question because sometimes yes and sometimes no. You know, the amount of women that come in that you know of a crime, and a big crime, whether it be murder or attempted murder, you know, on partners, you know, that to me just was water off a ducks back. You describe.
Tending to one person who arrives because you sort of greeted the new arts. Yeah, and she just stabbed her partner like twenty times, and as you were just sort of not processing her but kind of easing her into and making sure she was okay and settling her in. She was just telling you about her crimes, and you were just like.
I remember that I was. I was trying to make her a cup of coffee and she and you know, and she was sort of like she was just sitting And this is what tended to happen, is that it'll be the first that they can confess about something or get it off their chests. Not so much confess, but get it off their chest. It's probably a better way of saying it because they know they're around someone who cares. I've made that very upfront. They also know that I'm
not going to say anything. I'm one of them. I'm not, you know, and no one will listen to me anyway, And I don't care. They've got a due process that they can go through. But sometimes people want to do that, you know. They feel the need that they can talk to someone that they can trust. They don't even know
their lawyers by that stage. So and I remember she was sitting there, and I think it's the first time because the crime of stabbing him was only about five hours old, so she'd been caught taken through the police system, which is very non individual sort of you know, and then brought out here. So I was the first person, and when she sat down next to me, I said to her, sweetheart, you're fine, You're safe. You're safe here. We women are going to look after you. And it's okay.
I need you to know that so that you can then relax and we can start working on where you're going to go. Have you got kids, tell me about your kids, that sort of stuff, And that's that can bring a whole new wave of safety, because sometimes it's safer on the inside than it is on the outside, you know, because the outside is where the crimes are committed.
On the inside, we're dealing with broken people themselves. But I'd heard it so many times, you know, And I remember I was trying to she just wasn't cooperating and getting this coffee made for her and she wants your girls, and she's like, she's like, then I stabbed in, you know, and and and you know, I could I could hear this noise in his chest and then I'd be like, right, sorry, you know, did you want milk in that? In that coffee?
She's said, yeah, yeah, I have to milk. I said, to her, Oh okay, so sorry, sorry you were stabbing him and you heard noises like you just pick up from there and off we go. And it wasn't until one of the officers said to me, you know, Jesus, you know, and then I started thinking, okay, maybe this is becoming just too common. It's becoming too common for me. So those sort of crimes I never you know, I
never ever had any judgment there. There are a couple of people that I did have judgment on absolutely, but that was because I absolutely did not like them their heart, their soul or whatever, and that's just part and parcel of a community of women. But you know, yeah, I didn't have any any judgment at all.
What about the place in prison of women who are there for her harming or killing their kids.
That's in protection from protection from protection. So you've got protection, which is which is generally where women go if they are if someone on the compound, on the main part of the prison is a threat to them, and it will always be if someone has testified against another prisoner. So you might have two women that have done the same crime and one is staying, you know, quiet, and the other one goes. It was her. So that's the
worst thing that can happen in a criminal world. So they'll go to the protection or what they call the boner, so they'll go to protection for that. People that have that have sexually abused their kids and want to go to another area that's within that and even smaller, and that's protection from protection because the women that have sexually abused.
Their kids or harmed there.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the women that are in protection anyway, they're still just normal creams that have given somebody else up. But they still have opinions about women harming children, so they need to and I don't understand. Let's just go back.
So the women who've harmed their children, they they in a separate place.
But there in where we were there there's a protection building and there's the protection prisoners off to the right and then off to the left. They're segregated again, they because the women in protection still have issues with them, let alone.
So they're the lowest of the absolutely in pretty much everybody.
And particularly in women as well, because because all of the women see themselves in those tormented kids. You know, they've all been sexually abused, you know, ninety percent probably more have been sexually abused as a child, so they know what it's like. And then this woman comes in saying that this is what they've done to their child. They see themselves in those children, and.
It's just you know, it's just quarantine and population.
Oh yes, And and when they're moved, the entire prison will be locked down. Everyone will be taken back to their cells or to their cottages and whatnot and lockdown because if they're you know, if if there's any prisoners out on the compound. When these women are on the compound.
Film, what do you do for sex?
Well, it depends. You know, I'm heterosexual, and I wasn't about to. It didn't interest me. You know, I can women can go without if they need to. Young younger women, of course, there were the ones that had you know, that come in that were gay and got into relationships with other women that were gay, which is which is fabulous, but that always ends in tears because someone gets released before somebody else, and then there's those expectations the younger girls.
You know, it was just a it was just a sex sex word yep, gate gay gay cat. But you know, and that's and that's because women a lot of the women that were having sully, older women from say thirty on, that were having relationships with other women. It was more about the companionship, about the affection.
You know.
It was the first time that they had actually because I used to say, why change why, you know, And that's what it was about. Wasn't the companionship and that, you know, not having the crap belt out of you? I guess. So, you know, it's very complex situations when it comes to you know, you get it. You get a lot of girls that come in that are you know, twenty one, twenty two, you know, and they come and
upset the balance of stable gay relationships in there. You know, they come in and just blow and put a hand grenade amongst it, and that causes a lot of issues, you know.
So there are no conjugal visits with no no, no, and no sleeping with guards.
No.
I've been watching too much Orange in your Black.
Yes. Yes, the American prisons are quite different, you know, but no at Taran Gower, there are you know you because they have the little family units and that's what four it's all. Tarang I was also good for women that are coming off twenty years sentences. They'll send them up there for the last three years, you know, or two years, you know, so that they can slowly because reintegrading back into the community is a huge, huge thing to be faced with. But you know, I know I was.
I can't imagine after fifteen, sixteen, seven, eight years, you know, particularly is an older woman, you know, so, but we certainly didn't have no. This is a maximum security prison, so you know, maximum everything.
Early on, you describe a conversation you had to have with your daughters on the phone when you had to tell them you couldn't come home and they couldn't understand why, and they were very distressed. They were five and seven when you were initially arrested. Yeah, how do you stay being a mum and stay connected to your children for those formative years when you're in prison.
Look, it's the hardest thing ever, you know. I think that might have been when I was in the visit center when you know, I'm watching the first visit I had with the girls and they come racing in and you know, their little little arms and legs, you know, just hang off you. And then seeing them walked out of the visit center with two burly corrections officers you know, and to them, they were like policemen, you know, and they're yelling out, come with us, mummy, come with it.
It still breaks my heart today, It just yeah, it just breaks my heart. So trying to remain relevant in their life was the thing that fuelled me because I always knew that I was going to get over the crime in a sense, you know, and I don't mean that in any disrespectful way, but I knew that I
would be able to move through that. But to get my daughter's respect back and whatnot, I knew I had to do something much bigger than my sentence, you know, so that I could eclipse all of that and for them to say that they're proud of me from that moment to that moment, I had to do something major because you know, for the girls to be able to do that, we had six minute phone calls, you know, so six minutes with each child. Twelve minute phone calls
and it cuts off. There are automated phones out there, and I had two a week, so when there's six and seven, you know, i'd have six minutes with its child and you know, three minutes into it, they still haven't said a word. You're there you're okay, sweetheart, or this. They might be crying and then they'll just start to open up, and you've got to say, put Channing on, put Channing on Sarah, puts Sarah's crying.
You know.
It's it's just I would have I didn't do anything wrong in prison, but I would have absolutely sold my soul for a mobile phone because I would have done anything. Decide women have them No, No, some women silly, stupidly enough, you know, brought brought them in. And they bring them in vaginally. Yeah, so I'll never forget. One day we didn't end up putting this book, but one woman had just arrived, and then we had dog squad raid, you know, from the police, and we were standing out in line.
You know that they run the dogs over you to see that.
How did that happen? Often?
Yeah?
What were they looking for?
Drugs? Anything? They just it was a routine sort of thing.
You know. So vagina is the way people would smuggle things in and out of the prison.
Yep, yep. And and one woman can can bring in a ship loaded drugs really vaginally. I didn't, Yes, that's exactly totally so, you know, and this woman had brought in the tiny little mobile phone hadn't thought it through because it started ringing in her vagina. The dogs got of walking along with the dogs, you know, seeing if we've got drugged. And next to it there's this mobile phone. We could houst hear it and it was like and I'm like, oh my god, I looked at us. You said you're vagina ringing.
It was yeah, and put it on flatious.
It was hilarious. It was like you didn't think that one's really you know, some of those things were just you know, there are some really funny funny times in there as well. But yeah, so most of the most of the drugs. Because you're going to prison doesn't mean that you're going to stop taking drugs. You're an adict, and an addict is an addict is an addict. You get more drugs in prison than anywhere else, you know, because that's how it is. That's that's how it works.
Everyone's an addict. They don't want to go through withdrawal, you know, and also being in prison is enough to probably take drugs as well.
You've sat with a lot of people going through withdraw.
Absolutely, yeah, and like horrific. It's it's it's terrific. They have diarrhea, they can't get off their beds. So the obvious, you know, happened to the sweating. The you know, some of them I thought were going to have a heart attack, you know that, and they were so some of them were like forty five, forty six, forty seven kilos, you know they were, And it was just wretched. It breaks your heart, you know. And one of the first things
I did was able to get cordial. You know, I'd go up because everything's rat you know, so I'd sneak up to the kitchen and get the girls up there and would steal extra cordial to take another scamper back down to you know, the remanding unit with mo Hall, you know, and give them you know, generally straight cordial, just to get some sugar into their system. You know. It was just terrific. It's people really don't understand that, you know, why they would want to not go through a withdrawal.
It sounds like you had such purpose.
I did. I knew your own prison, Yeah, I did, you know, And I think I think it also too, was it It was also a distraction from me from my children, you know, trying to trying to.
Just Sue, a mother and other women.
Yeah, you know, and I was one of the healthiest there, and I could do this. Other girls, you know, they might have wanted to have but they couldn't. Either they didn't have the vocabulary or the education, or they were sick, or for whatever reason, it just happened to be there was a gap, and I happened to be there. One of the other things I did with the girls, too, was that we've all got good sense of humor, the
girls as well. And so I'd get a card each day from the canteen, and I got the programs officers to get me some joke books, kids joke books, and each day I'd write in the card, you know, and I sequenced them so that you know, there was this ongoing fluid connection. So I'd say, you know, one card each I'll go dish and today I thought of you a hundred times, and then I'd put a joke in it, and then i'd do the same for Sarah. And then the next day i'd tell them what the answer to
the joke was. And I thought of more one hundred and one times, right up until it was sixteen hundred times a day that I was thinking of them, and they've still got all those all of those you know, I didn't realize it until about twelve months ago. They've still got all the books of cards.
Yeah, So it was that really like trying to parent, yeah, try trying to stay in their lives.
Trying to stay in their lives. I couldn't parent. And it got to the point too where you know, they were talking, their lives were moving on and so naturally, so when they would come and talk to me about people I didn't know them, they were new friends, they were knew. So I just wasn't interested in that side of things because in prison, it's about the actual tangible connection,
physical connection with me and my girls. When they started talking about stuff on the outside, I couldn't even visualize who they were or what they were or where they come from or whatever. So to me, they just weren't relevant. And it also showed how much I was missing out on, you know, So when they come to see me, I just wanted to sit and talk to them and just be with them and you know, be in that moment
with them. So it was there's a disconnection there as well, because I just know who they'll talk about, you.
Know, some of the women in there have arrived pregnant. And what happens if you give birth in jail? How does that go?
Well, it depends. You know, most of the women that arrive that are pregnant, the fair majority when I was there anyway, were drug users. So the child was born addicted. Where possible, the child will be kept with the mother, and so the mother.
Even if they were an addicted Yep.
Absolutely, the mother will be taken into the hospital, she'll give birth, she'll come back out, and then she'll go back in each day to see the child where needed, or stay in there with them once she's okay. Bubb will usually stay on a little bit longer because they're addicted. But the prison will take the mother in and out
and whatnot, and then the baby will come back. Unless there's any unless she's been convicted of a violent crime, unless there's been child offenses beforehand, unless DHS are involved, you know that sort of stuff, taking it out. All of that, the child will come back to the prison with the mother. And in my mind, I still stand by the fact that a child should be with its mother. So long was it safe a child shall be with
this mother, Because I know with my daughters. You know, the love of a child, as you know, can never ever be touched, but the bond can absolutely be broken. And that's never good for anybody because you know, the particularly for the child. So the child needs to know that and have that connection with it for the whole time.
The hidden victims of all of these are children that think that their mother's abandoned them, and that's worse than their father abandoned them, I believe, you know, because that mothering nurturing side, if it's lost when they're younger, it gives them the opportunity and the vulnerability to then enter into relationships like that where they feel rejected, you know, where they're not worth it.
What was the narrative your girls were told about where you were and why you were there.
We were honest with with where they were and with worth while I was there, and they started visiting me at the prison pretty early on. After a while they got used to it, and I don't think the funny thing is now yeah, so they got used to it.
You know.
The hard part was was was, as I said, I couldn't you know, say I'm not coming home next week. I'm not coming home next month, I'm not coming home for years, you know.
Oh, that's impossible for kids to think.
So what I do and it was just by default, but because I didn't master plan this sort of thing, but it worked out better was drip feed them a little bit at a time, hopefully after Christmas, the judge will tell him when Mommy can come home, you know, even though I knew it was going to be, you know, i'd do it in six months since you know. And at the same time, they were sort of moving along a little bit as well. It was so living with their dad, yeah, and it was so different, and he
was terrific. You know. I was so fortunate that they had a father that they could live with that tended to them where the mother was away, you know. So it was it was really quite It was really quite difficult for them to understand, particularly why Mum isn't there. But after a while they just got used to it.
And I was only talking to Sarah, who's twenty one tomorrow, about this the other day and she said, you know, she just doesn't remember, and I think that's just that's something that she just probably doesn't want to remember, because she remembers things prior to that, so, you know, but it's nice to know that. You know, these are two very strong, really well you know, disciplined, really well organized,
really responsible young women. You know, I'm very, very very lucky that it hasn't been generation.
You've got a lot downe in the prison.
You wrote a book, the children's book was I noticed a lot of women weren't seeing their kids. And again I go to great pains to say that women in prison do it tough, you know, and anybody that says anything different, it doesn't know. And they're not an authority on it, because they absolutely do. And you know, women from domestic violence are used to accepting blame. You know, it's always their fault, so you know that's they just get on with it. They're tough and they just get
on with it. But they weren't seeing you know, a lot of them weren't seeing their kids, you know. And again it's not the women saying I'm their mother, I should be I've got every right so my kids blah blah blah. I've heard it all before. It's the children's right to see their mother. A child will visit their mother wherever they are and still love them. You know, they'll usually be you know, I won't even know what's
around them. So that was what it was about, was it was trying to let everybody know that the prison is a safe place to visit, you know, for children to come to. The offices are fantastic, you know. They talked to the kids in her eyes, I was talking to your mummy the other day, you know. So it gives the kids this thought that they're in a mummy safe and she's in another community just for a little while.
It's not necessarily a prison, so to speak. The visit center brand of Money was the general manager when I was there. He went to great pains to make sure that it was brightly colored, it had games, it had toys. You know, we could get photos taken with the kids, you know. So it was a really vibrant, you know, place to be. And I and my ex husband had issues as well, because, and understandably so, we had never
been involved in the prison system before. He thought that the kids would come into the main compound and wander around and have barbecues with the arm robbers, and that I took offense with because everyone knew that you didn't invite the armed robbers for the barbecues as they always knocked off the meat. They seriously, so I wasn't having a part of that. So I thought, we'll have to write a book and educate people so that when, for instance, my or someone that's going to prison, we can get
the book. Lawyers can give the book to the you know, the mum or the dad. And it's a color reading book and it steps through a visit that Shannon and Sarah have with me, and it'll say the dog squads come in, and the dogs are really friendly, but they're working, so you can't touch them, so that when the children
come in they know what to expect. And then you know, Shannon took five dollars in coins and went and got some drinks from the drink machine, so we can let them know what to expect, what's available, but in a very friendly, in a very friendly way, and that and color it in so the kids are part of this interacting before they even get you know, get there. So and it was one that was still in operation today. It's in all the law firms and legal aids and whatnot.
It was a really, really really good thing to do. I enjoyed it.
One of the photos that I liked most in your book that I poured over was of your cell. Oh yeah, can you just describe that because there's so much I don't know myth around what a prisoner's cell might look like.
Well, the one that's in the book is in the Cottages, but initially I was in the Romanian, which is a single cell. Now, if I stood, I did it many times. If I stood and walked to the length of my cell, it's fifteen and a half of my feet long, and I'm about a seven and a half shoe of.
Your feet, but not in the steps. Fifteen and a half feet to heel.
Yep, So fifteen and a half long. And if I stood in the middle of the cell and outstretched my arms and just moved a little to the right and the left, I could touch the walls on outher side.
Is it one person personal?
Yep, yep. Now in that room, you've then got a bed on a slab of concrete, You've got a shower, you've got a toilet, and you've got a desk. So there's only about you know, three or four feet of width that you can walk and then you've got you know, you've got barred window, not barred so to speak. But you know, reinforced windows that look out onto the razor wire. It's quite a treat in the book when you move up to the cabins, and therefore, because you can't I
was in that cell. Usually you're in that cell for about two to three months. It's a settling cell. But it was in the reminding. I was in it for four day months because I was doing my work down at the greeting, so I decided to stay there. I was quite comfortable. I didn't need anything.
I was.
You know, when you move up to the cabins, because you can't have a woman in a single cell for twenty years. You know they'll go insane. You just can't do it. So the cottages up on the top end of the prison are for women doing long, long sentences. And because I was a peer educator, and you know, I was the youngest sort of nearly five years in sentences up there.
You talk about the age of your sentence. So you're four or five, so you're young and someone old if they're twenty or third.
Yeah, you know. So what happens is you go up to the cabins and you'll have five bedrooms, three showers, and a toilets at the back of the it's still within the cabin, the cottage.
It's like a share house.
It's like a it's yeah, absolutely, but it's built out a big best of blocks, concrete, best of blocks, and the front and the back door are all that's locked at night because you don't have toilets in your cells now, so we're free to walk around the unit as much as we want. And your cell look tiny, Yeah, it's very ear but it was bigger than the one in the reminding units.
So when you say you were free to walk around, like I could not a slumber party though.
Oh no, I could walk out of my unit and out of my cell and go out into the lounge area or make a cup of coffee or whatnot. But in a lockdown, so you can't. You'll make a coffee in your cell and that door shut until the next morning, you know. So there's a lot more movement up in the cabins, but they have to be because you know,
you're up there for twenty years sort of thing. But that brings its own set of complexities as well, because women that are up there for two twenty years often like to take over the cabin because you know, my sentence is the longest start. You know, this is the way I like the cabin to be run, and this that and the other and blah blah blah. So and
then there's who do you live with? You know, you you can't have someone in there that's incompatible because you hopefully you'll be living with this person for maybe five years.
So who makes those decisions?
The women in the unit. Generally the officers will come on board if we need that to do, but we would generally scout our own.
Tell me about a day in the life.
Well, it's Groundhog Day. Every day seven forty five, the compound puts out announcements to be up and ready dressed and ready for muster. And muster is where the officers go around every single cell or door or unit. I'll open up the front door and come in, and you've got to be standing by the door and they'll count you one, two, three, four, five, one to three fo and just to make sure no one's escaped. To a head count. Every morning, every lunchtime, every middle of the afternoon,
and at night. There's four counts every day without fail. Doesn't matter what's happen. There's a count at those.
Time, so you have to be up at seven forty five. Where's breakfast?
Well, it depends, you know, if you're in the reminding the girls will you know, from the kitchen, will bring it down because you can't cook for yourself, so they'll bring it down to the units. We could cook for ourselves because it's a cabin so we'd order the food from the kitchen on I think it was at the time thirty three dollars per woman a week, and then someone in the cottage does all the ordering. What's the food like in jail, Well, the women, you know, I
think it's pretty cheap. You can do your own cooking in the cabins, you can, yeah, but the women in the kitchen prisoners as well, they do all the cooking there as well, so they look after their own. And it's actually pretty good. It's the meat and sort of stuff that I think would be fairly cheap. It's not, you know, but you get used to that. I wouldn't.
I would not. It wasn't bad food. And because it's cooked by the girls who have at them, you know at one stage been in the remand unit who are being cooked for you know, it's damn good, I think, yeah.
And so you have breakfast, then.
What do you have? And then it's medication time. So because so many women are on medication, whether it be to ease their withdrawal from anxiety, depression, bipolar, you name it, you know, just mental health issues, you know, for a.
Stasteril, medication, heart mads for that, older women, all kinds of things, everything.
So you line up at that and you line up, the nurse has your file, they'll give you the medication. The officers check your mouth so that you haven't stored it to sell to somebody else, which is often the case. And that could go for quite some time. And then you've got to go to work. And this is something that I object to because prison and your sentence. One can never ever trivialize a prison sentence. So I hear people say, oh, she just got two years or she's
got three years. That is two or three years. But what comes with that is huge. Everything else around you becomes this big black hole that everything falls into relationships, children, family, you know, careers, all that sort of stuff. So it's not just plus you are exiled totally from the outside world,
you know, so that's fair enough. You know, and I think, you know, you've got to sort of understand that that's there's so much more than just a sentence, you know, so when you're in prison, then I don't think it should be a double sentence where you've got to work for five dollars a day on menial silly tasks. To me,
it should be a program prison. As soon as that women get their medication, they then go to a cooking class because most women can't cook for their children, you know, they've never cooked because they're drug addicts.
You know, so you're I want to ask you what the menial silly tasks are.
Well, the first thing I think of was when when I first got there, and I don't think they do it now, but when I first got there, it was sand in chairs. It was it was chairs that were made from wood and we'd have to hand sand them so that they could be sent off to Ikea or whatever else. You know, you spend hours, you spend eight hours handstanding a chair, you know, you know, stinking hot
shed for Ikea or whatever. You know, when you could have all of these women instead doing a program on sexual abuse, domestic violence, you know, parenting programs, how to look after nutrition for themselves and their children that they've never had and all that sort of stuff. Education, you name it, so you know, but no, this is what they do. The Anzac Day badges all women prisoners, all
female prisoners. So whenever you see an Anzac Day badge, women sit in sheds that are about forty five degrees, you know, because it's done over January. It starts in January, the hottest time of the day. And all they do is get the little cards, they get the pin and they just pin it onto that card. That's all they do for eight hours in the whole hottest temperatures possible. It's it's great for the Anzac Day legacy, don't get me wrong. I get that, but it's such a waste
when we have broken people in there, you know. You know, even so you know, just just gardening jobs such as gardening, you know, when there's there is any grass.
You could a degree. How did you do that?
My Master of Arts I did in prison. There was a Japanese woman come in and she was doing her Master of Arts through swimber And University and she said, well, I want I want to continue to do it, and she sort of fought her own little fight, and then they agreed and said, well, okay, well why don't we you know, why can't she do it? You know, let's let's and we thought she was going to be there
a lot longer. So they came out and said, well, you know, and then they picked four of us that was sort of had a reasonable education and said, you know, do you want to do it as well? It looked like yep. So there were five of us. One sort of did a year and got her had served I think, you know. The rest of us went through and did the full masters, and it was the first no one thought we'd do it.
When did you study? When did you do all of that?
At night?
You know?
That was the only time I could study because during the day I was I was literally my job was going from place, settling people in and you know, getting them clicked in with programs and writing their kids and all that sort of stuff. So and I really enjoyed that, you know, And so I do it at night or on the weekends, because because prison is a is it an operational sort of thing where where weekends it sort of closes down as well, all the programs, education, everything shut.
So weekends you have a lot more time to be able to do that sort of stuff, you know. Plus you know when people say, you know, you know, prisoners get these benefits and whatnot, it's absolutely not. You know, I've got a hex step from my master's I did it exactly the same way as any other person out in the community. I didn't take anyone's position there. And I'll go as far as to say that we did it,
you know, we did it Dan. Well, we didn't have the internet, you know, we were allowed to use the internet, so so our tutor used to bring out reams and rooms and rooms and rooms of paper. The problem with that was that we couldn't keep it in our cell for more than a week because it become a fire. Hasn't if that caught fire, the doors of double locked, you know. So so we had we had a great incentive to to to make sure that our homework was down.
Each week we'd just miss out. So Swimberin brought the entire course to you. Yeah, absolutely, and we all passed and passed it very well actually, And then they brought the first graduation out to a prison photo of yes there was and look and they were humble enough to come out and so and so respectful of the fact that they come out. They were searched, they went through the whole procedure. You know, these are professors and vice
chancellors and whatnot. They brought all the regalia out for us, like at the robes, and yes, a lot of officers came in on their days off.
You know.
It was fantastic. The women in prison were just were just over the moon for us because it was like, you know, someone succeeded. You know that that's what they want, you know, they want to see that people can actually really make a difference. You know, maybe it'll be them. So it was, it was, It was fantastic. It was really good. The Japanese woman was released not long after we all got this going anyway, But and I think she can finish hers as well. I'm not quite sure.
So you spent almost five years in prison, Your girls were now ten and twelve, Yeah, something around that age. It was time to get out. You must have been elated.
No, No, I wasn't.
No.
In fact, I cried the closer I got to leaving, the more frightened I got. And I didn't. I actually went to the general manager and said, can you stop this, can you can you just keep me here, you know? And he was like, what never, No one has ever said that to you before. And I burst into tears because he'd invested so much in me that I felt like I was betraying him by leaving, and I'd miss him. He was a genuinely lovely man that had a really good heart, was a good leader, and I just didn't
want to go. You know, how was the place going to survive without me?
You know?
It was literally that's how I felt, you know. And I was in a place where I was respected, I had, I earned a lot of my integrity back. I matted, I had statue, and then I was going, yeah, and I was going out, you know, because just before I got out, the girls came out and visited it. Because I was sort of like, Mumy's going home, thinking, you know the world and yeah, the world had stopped for me in there, but it had gone on for them. I just thought that they were just sitting doing the
same thing. Can't wait, can't wait. They came out and went, we don't get mad, mum. You know, I'm like and they said, now we don't want to live with you when you come home and and I actually literally physically felt i'd been kicked in the stomach.
I feel like I just got.
And I was like, and I but I had to hold it together because I had to not just I had to really really listen to what they were saying. You know, this is huge for them. And then I realized they're frightened that I'm coming home, you know, And it was it was this so I didn't want to go home even more.
You know when you say frightened, frightened of the unknown, of well.
Of the of the instability. Is m I'm going to do this again? Is she going to you know, end up in prison and away from our lives again? You know? God knows what their father was saying, I don't know, you.
Know, it was it's split up by this, oh yep.
And you know, so I didn't know, but I just had to understand that, you know, they were frightened because they didn't trust me, and and I was just you know, going along thinking here we are, you know, and then and then boom, and I was like, okay, all right, I've got to I've got to actually find a place for this to sit. Because when I got out, the biggest problem of getting out is where do I fit now?
Where do I you know? And unfortunately the community still believe that a lot of people in the community still believe that even though you've gotten out of prison, you still have to serve time. You know, you're still going to be judge. You're going to be held accountable for that crime for your rest of your life. And I'm the first one to say absolutely not. You know, you pay. We have to have a judicial system in our community where you pay for your crime and then you move on,
you know, And that's how it has to be. Otherwise we need to just get people to go before the judge get tried and take them at the back of the court and shoot them.
I would have thought straight away, Okay, come on, carry be a corrections officer and get back in there.
I've got a criminal record. I'd love to do that. No.
And the other thing too, Can you work in the prison in any capacity?
No? No, not with a criminal record?
But that's crazy.
Yeah, yeah, I know I would. I would love to, there's no doubt about that. But there's also different levels of that as well, you know, because because what I was doing, I was one of them. When we went back and filmed Australian story. We actually went into the prison and as soon as I appeared, some of the girls in the in the medical center, we're going carry Can you pop down at a five and see me? Can you?
And I couldn't even go near them because I'm now a civilian, So I and they're looking thinking why are you coming down the end of the hold of time because I was now not one of them. So I'm sort of trying to go and I'm thinking, he's God, she doesn't even know that I'm not even here. I'm not even a prisoner anymore. So it was there's that disconnection again. But that wouldn't take that wouldn't take long.
You know, it just depends that corrections might see that, you know, am I on their side or on my own correction side sort of thing? You know, there's an allegiance there.
So I don't know what happened after you got out. I had the world changed much?
Yeah? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, it was. It was. We had the barbecue the day before, you know, that's that's what you do when you leave prison and everyone gets together. And I'd made a point of making sure that the officers were invited as well, because and and of course people are, well, I'm not going, and I'm like, fair enough, but you know, they've been here longer than you have, sweetheart, so they're coming, you know. And and then we walked
to the gate and off you go. So you walk to the gate, you know, crying of leaving this community. You walk through and get into your civilian clothes and outside into your family's arms and you and you're smiling.
You know.
It's it's a very difficult thing. And has that had a great year most a couple of my sisters and nephews and odds and odds, you know, not your girls. We'd had issues with that. Marke's husband and I and and I'd waited, you know, they were the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, and here I was at the end of the rainbow and they weren't there.
He felt that it would be best that I saw them a couple of days after I got out, and you know, again I had no input into that, so so fitting in with them was a was a big thing. I remember going uh and seeing them day three. The other thing, too, is that when I met all of my family too, there were a lot of people that that,
you know, I hadn't seen for a little while. I wasn't so much to that, but they all had people were talking talking about these people and these kids and these and these there were new members of the family, Like I was the I was the odd one out of my own family. I didn't even know who they were talking about. She married, she married, you know, your nephew, you know, and yeah, and that's then they had a baby. Yeah, and you know, so the dynamics of the family had
changed as well. You know. So then when I saw the girls, I remember thinking, we went to Chanside Park shopping center, and the girls were like, they were excited, but they were nervous and they were you know, and I didn't want to I didn't know how to act. Actually, I'd lost on my parenting skills. I wasn't an authority in their life by any streage. So when we when we got there, you know, they started they started arguing, and I did not know, for the life of me,
how to handle this. I didn't know what to do. They were annoying the hell out of me because I wasn't used to little kids arguing around me. I was used to this tough, you know environment where you turn around and go shut up, go away, you know. So so it was just so it was. And when they used to come and see me on a visit, it was always best behavior because all loved each other. And this was so different, and I didn't know what to do.
I couldn't be I've been out four hours or something with the girls anyway, you know, start yelling at them or it was just horrible. I didn't know what to do. And then then, you know, I remember there were people sitting around this table and they were talking about things like, you know, don't forget we're going to have that barbecue on Wednesday, don't stop at Bunnings and pick up the stuff for the law mar and and I remember sitting there thinking, God, I don't even I don't. That's that's
someone living a life. I don't have that anymore. I don't I don't have friends, and I don't know anyone that will go to a barbecue. I've got no need to go to Bunnings because I've got nothing, you know. And I remembered how and I remember thinking I was like a ghost walking around this the outside of this place, because I didn't fit in anywhere.
I knew, had every chance, Like you absolutely educated, you weren't on drugs, you weren't.
I walked out to the job in the university.
Were educated, you're white, you were all of those things.
And I walked out to job in university, you know, which is yeah, you know, I had I had a job. I was off at a job while I was in prison from swim Burn after I did my masters. So so I had everything, but I just couldn't find where I fit. Where do I fit? And if you don't fit, it's just fundamentally the the who you are, where do you belong? You know. It was just so so goddamn difficult trying to try trying to work that out. And then, you know, the f POS machines, I've got a lot
of pride, the f POS machines were different. So I was looking over this woman's shoulder trying to see how she was doing it, and she actually turned around and sort of had to go with me because she thought I was trying. And I'm thinking to myself, oh, terrific. I didn't even think of that. You know, I'm going to be back into prison within three days, you know. And I was like no, I didn't want to say I don't know how to use it, because totally it was just so it was it was just it was
so good of Harden. The one time I did was able to assert myself or who I'd become was when we were sitting down having lunch with the kids and we're just sitting having great time, and this woman walked up and said, yeah, no, there are you know, here are you going, and then made a point of just ignoring me, even though she knew who I was. Because everyone knew that I was obviously out of prison. It was a big deal and everyone wanted a part of
the show. And she went to walk off, so I sort of said the just there from when I went over to it, and I said to her, I don't know who you are, I said, and more of the point, I don't care, I said, but they are my daughters and I am their mother, and you won't change it. So next time I do see you, if you want to speak to my children, you will speak to me first,
or don't approach us at all. And that's one thing that I have an issue with is that if you have been to prison and you've done your time and you've done, you know, and I've spoken it over three hundred maybe four hundred events in the community raising awareness. I've never changed, you know, it's my being able to give back to the community and whatnot. I didn't appeal my sentence. I did it all in maximum security, I did, you know, I assisted the community there, so I think
that I've done what I needed to do. So to have then people feel that they can actually take ownership over my daughters is a huge trigger for me. So you know, I needed to set that straight, you know, because while I'm wandering through trying to work out where I fit in life, the one thing I do know is that they are my daughters and someone I've never met before. You know, I don't how long did.
It take to re establish your relationship with the girls?
Five years?
Wow? Yeah, as long as you were aware it took that long again.
And you know, and sometimes, you know, sometimes just to get settled back into the community is the same amount of time that you've been in prison. It takes that. It's such a big thing to you know, particular when you know that most people don't want you to be part of the community, you know, just buying large not maybe individually, but buy in large, you know. So, and that's what I always say, is the more the community, every woman gets out of prison, you know. And and
again they're broken women, you know. My idea is that they come into prison, we work on them because they're doing their sentence, they're doing what has been told by the judge, by the community, by the judicial system. They're
doing exactly that. So while they're in there, let's make it a win win situation and start working on these women so that when they leave, they come out better people than when they went in, and maybe a little bit more healed because they're going to come and live next door to you or you know, somebody else or whatnot, and then they can become productive members of the community. It's a win win situation as far as I'm concerned.
And you invest in these people because they're not most of them are not master criminals, you know, because when they come out, if the community says, actually, we don't want you, even though you've done your time, why on earth would they bother abiding by the community's laws. If they're not part of that community. Why feel an allegiance
to do the right thing? And that, you know, it's just such a simple, a simple process about particularly about women in prison, because you know, most of them, you know, just need you know, there's no point putting people in prison and then just letting them sit there and then expect a different outcome when they come out. That's just ludicrous. That is just stupid. And unfortunately politics is that way a lot. You know, no one wants to invest, will
just build more prisons. Well, that's just ridiculous.
Your girls are in their twenties now.
Sarah's twenty one tomorrow and Channel's twenty two. Fabulous, absolutely fabulous. I'm very very proud of the girls and they you know, and they're very proud of me. You know, they've told me so. And that's the one thing that I that's the one thing that I wanted. You know what, other people and and other people are going to have their opinions,
and I absolutely respect that that's not an issue. But that's the girls that I care about, you know, so, you know, so it's been a long hard you know, I've had to be really really patient with with finding a place with them again enforcing you know this, you know, mummy's time. Let's just disrupt their whole entire life so I couldn't be prouder of the girls. You know, they're just they're wonderful, good hearted, law abiding citizens.
Carry They're so lucky to have you, as we're all the women in prison who benefited from your attention when you were there. What an extraordinary story, and I feel like I've learned so much.
Thank you. Well that's much that's important, you know, and I think people can change the way they think about things if they know how it actually works.
Thank you for listening to this episode of No Filter. Next week for a complete change of pace, I am going to speak to a woman who life hacks her period. Oh my god, this will actually change your life. If you enjoyed this story and you are looking for what to listen to you next, I have a suggestion for you. It's actually an episode of our family life podcast called This Glorious Mess, and this episode is actually called When Daddy Goes to Prison, and it's the most fascinating episode
of the show. It's hosted by Holly Wainwright and Andrew Daddo, who hosts the show every week, and they speak to a guy called Scott Williams about the time that he had to tell his young son that he was going to prison, and I didn't get to talk to Carry enough about her relationship with her daughters and what that was like having that conversation so much. But oh, the interview with Scott Williams is really interesting. You can find it in the Muma Mea podcast app or wherever you
listen to this show. We will also put a link in our show notes to this and to the extract from Kerry Tucker's book. This show has been produced by Eliza Ratliffe. I am Maya Friedman and I will see you on Mama Mia dot com dot au. If you're looking for something else to listen to, like and follow all of our Muma Mea podcasts, which are currently bringing you hot pod Summer one hundred hours of summer listens.
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