Yeah, judge me on what I do. I don't label myself a lot of things, but it doesn't mean that I'm how unhappy or uncomfortable if other people say, Oh, Julie is a feminist because she supports equal opportunity and gender equality. What about? Look at what I do as opposed to how I self describe
from Mamma Mia, I'm Mia Freedman and you're listening to no filter counted conversations that count. Julie Bishop hasn't been a private citizen for 20 years, but a few hours after this interview was recorded, that changed because an election was called as the member for curtain. She had been the deputy leader of the Liberal Party for 11 years under three different leaders, and for the past few years she'd been the foreign minister of Australia.
She was the first woman to serve in either of those roles, and people on all sides pretty much agree that she did a kick ass job. There was terrorist attacks, Bali executions, the shooting down of Malaysian Airlines flight MH 17, an Ebola outbreak and, of course, a few rounds of prime ministerial musical chairs. Isn't that a fun game? She is a woman who loves fashion as much as politics. And she sees no problem when the two things collide.
Like that time, she wore a pair of tailored shorts with a matching jacket to meet with the mayor of London. Well, the killer Red Heels with sparkles she wore on the day she announced she would be stepping down as foreign minister and moving to the back bench, you might remember that difficult decision came after a particularly bruising episode of the Parliament House reality show, where the Liberal Party decided to play Knife the leader yet again.
When Malcolm Turnbull stood down, Julie put up her hand to run for PM along with Scott Morrison and Peter Dutton. But she was knocked out fairly brutally in the first round as a result of some pretty disappointing backroom deals that we all learned about via a leaked group chat between many of her fellow MPs. It was messy and disloyal and a deeply anti climactic end to a glittering career in politics. Not that Julie ever said that publicly. None of it.
She's worked through some of Australia's ugliest moments, both in Canberra and around the world, with her signature class and style. She's always always toed the party line, but now she doesn't have to. Now she can say whatever she wants. However she wants to hear is Julie Bishop Julie. We're both sitting here in our white shirts. We're all sitting here. Actually, everyone in the studio is wearing a white shirt. What's the significance
today? We launched the 2019 white shirt campaign and which we donate 100% of the gross proceeds of the sale of white shirts to ovarian cancer Research and the foundation set up to develop an early stage detection test because there isn't one for ovarian cancer because there's no early symptoms, no warning. Most women are diagnosed at advanced stages, and so the death rate is high compared with other cancers.
Compared to, say, when you first came into Parliament in 1998 how much more understanding and awareness around women's health issues Do you think there is in Canberra
these days so much more? It's a dramatic difference, and it's taken some rather tragic events, like the death of Senator Jeannie Ferris. She died of ovarian cancer to really focus people's attention on it. That's why it's so important to have more women in Parliament, more women in the decision making forums around the world because we do have a different experience, a different perspective. And issues like women's health
are raised by women. Men, of course, understand. But in terms of a priority, women's health has tended to be a secondary issue. Now it's a primary issue. It's a priority, and I was delighted to see the government provide more money. In fact, I think since we came to office, about 33 million had been dedicated to ovarian cancer research. And that's why I'm so keen to do more. The government can't do it all. The community also has to dig in and support women who have this cancer.
What's life like on the outside? Now I noticed you said, Way is that Is that going to take a while to change?
I guess it will. I've been in politics for 20 years now, so I've been saying we for a very long time, sort of like the royal family we But I had my last day in Parliament, and it was a mix of emotions, sadness, pride, relief and excitement about what may lie ahead. So I had a 20 year legal career, a 20 year political career. Now I'm looking for another 20 year career in a whole range of different areas.
You mentioned a lot of emotions that you had on that last day, and I watched your speech and I watched it again today before you came in.
It has been an immense honor to be the longest serving member for Curtain and also to be the deputy leader of the Liberal Party, the first female to hold the role for 11 years, over half my entire political career. And I'm also proud of the fact that I am the first woman to contest the leadership ballot of the Liberal Party in its 75 year history.
And I felt better when I watched you. You would never say that because you're far too classy. But I watched that and I felt angry, and I felt resentful. And I felt beat up that you are such an extraordinary woman, and you would have made such an extraordinary prime minister and you never got that chance.
My opportunity came in unexpected circumstances last year. I would never have challenged a leader from the position as deputy and so I served under a number of leaders. But when circumstances changed, to the extent that Malcolm Turnbull wasn't going to run again and there were two candidates in Peter Dutton and Scott Morrison, I felt a real responsibility to put my name forward. So the party room had other options, and I've been the deputy for 11 years, and I've been foreign minister
for five years. I've been a Cabinet minister under John Howard under Tony Abbott under Malcolm Turnbull. So I thought I had the experience. And obviously, you don't put your name forward if you think you're going to lose. Nor do you put your name forward if you think you'd lose the election. So I put my hand up the party room obviously saw otherwise, and I respect that. I've been a member of that party room for 20 years, so you have to respect the views of your colleagues.
But I thought that that then made me reassess how much longer I wanted to be in politics. And so I didn't cause a by election. I stayed. I went on to the back bench and let the new team get on with being the new government. And then over that period of time, I thought long and hard about what I wanted to do. And then I met a number of people who said that if I were not standing at the next election, they would run for the seat of curtain. And I thought,
Now is the time to leave. So it's a time of my choosing on my terms, and there's no point in feeling bitter. You just have to be positive about the future. And so I don't look back. I don't do regrets. I don't do recrimination. I just say, Okay, now it's time for the next chapter
you've been through. You've been in Parliament through I think it's five leadership changes or changes of prime minister in the system. Yes, there's so many. I've spoken to a lot of journalists about what that time is like around a leadership change and spills. What's it like when you're inside? What's it like when it's happening to people who are your colleagues and your friends and you're involved?
Yeah, I witnessed it first on the Labour side when Kevin was challenged by Julia Gillard, and it was morbidly fascinating to watch a party tear itself apart. I did never think it would happen to us because I assume that I've done it again us, because I assume that it took such a toll on the Labour Party. But then they changed again. They got rid of Julia Gillard and installed Kevin, so it became the norm. It set a benchmark and very low benchmark indeed. And then
I served under Tony Abbott. He was our leader into the 2000 and 13 election that we won.
And then over time I saw that he was losing the support of the party room and in our political system in the Liberal Party, the leader is chosen by the party room, and that can be frustrating for the wider public because they say, Well, I voted in the Liberal Party because I wanted to see X y Z as the prime minister, and then the party room says, Well, we don't want to work with this person anymore and without going to an election will change leaders
that does cause instability. Being on the inside. It's a very emotional time because people are pitted against each other. It's very adversarial. Competitive things are said. That shouldn't be said. Things are done that shouldn't be done. So there's a lot of turmoil involved, which is why I recommend that parties give up changing leaders between elections. Unless there's a very valid, cogent, coherent reason to do so.
Some very close relationships must be formed. You know, when you're in a party for 20 years, how do people process the betrayal that comes around? These leadership changes and spills because it's like you got to pick a side and it's like I thought you were with me and maybe you said you were with me, but then you weren't with me. There was some text messages and WhatsApp Group that you found out about afterwards that must have been absolutely devastating on a bunch of levels.
Does it make you question who really, ever was your friend or colleague?
Or sadly, Politics has a name for that, for betrayal, for conflict between people who others presumed with colleagues or, indeed, they may well have presumed it. Was it Paul Keating. That said, If you want a friend in politics by a dog, there's a certain amount of truth in that, but I've also made friends in politics that I suspect will be friends for life. It's difficult and it takes you some time to understand that this is the way it's played. But of course you can still be hurt and frustrated
and angry. But there's no point, because that's the way it is. And politics in Australia has been a system built by men because for the last 100 years since federation, the majority of parliamentarians have been male and so it's very adversarial and it reflects the way men see the world. It's only in more recent years that women have become involved in politics, so the culture is very male, and I think that that has a fair amount to do with it.
You said. You've been in cabinets where there are a number of women and when you've been the only woman, and you said that you've noticed that the behavior of the Cabinet is very different. Can you explain the differences
well, I think a number of women would relate to this if they have been the only woman in a boardroom or in a meeting, and I was in cabinet. If you're the only female voice in a room of, say, 2030 males. They tend not to hear you. I called it gender deafness, and I don't know what it is, but you struggled to be heard, even if what you're saying is original or different or controversial, outrageous. Even there seems to be a glossing over and they move on to the next opinion.
And then somebody can say precisely what you said and the men were. So yeah, that's a good idea. Let's go with X Y Z view. And yet, when other women are around the room, women tend to. Most women tend to support the other woman, saying, Hang on, Did you just hear what she said and bring attention to it? I also think that women's perspectives are so important and you have to have more women around these boardroom tables and cabinet tables and decision making forums.
They bring a different perspective, a different view, a different experience and without over generalizing. Women do have different leadership style to men they do. We're much more transformational were much more focused on the impact on the individual we build. What do
you mean by transformational?
Well, we build teams by working with individuals whereas men a much more transactional the teams put together. They hold the team to account the far less empathetic to the individual needs, whereas women focused very much on the empathy behind what's happening.
Emotional intelligence,
all of the situation. And I've seen it, not just in politics. I've seen it in many scenarios. I was partner in a major law firm for many years, and at one point I was the only female in the partnership meetings. And women do bring a different perspective now. It's not one or the other. You need both. They complement each other. And that's why I'm speaking about encouraging more women to come into Parliament. The processes will be different. The outcomes
will be better. Corporate. See this now? It's not just the right thing to do. It's a smart thing to do. Corporations can see that if you have more women in decision making positions, your bottom line is going to be better
because smart business isn't it, absolutely. And it can also be transformational for society when it comes to government. You know, we were just talking about $30 million going to endometriosis and ovarian cancer. You would ask I imagine 100 men and probably 90 of them wouldn't be able to even tell you anything about those two. Things probably wouldn't even know it. Endometriosis was
exactly. And so you do need women around the table around the table to explain some of these issues and say, Well, actually, this is an issue that women feel strongly about. And unless a man has a very strong female in his life, he may well not know about it. So it's just common sense reflecting community concerns. And 50% of our population is female.
44% of Labour Party MPs are women, 18% of Liberal Party MPs are women. And yet quotas is a dirty word and all the men are there by merit. Of course, we know that you don't have to toe that line anymore. How do you really feel about
that? I really feel that we do need targets that are taken seriously.
What's the difference between target and quote?
Unquote? It's mandatory, and labour don't actually adhere to a quota. They say they do, but they don't. I've seen when it's a woman's turn to be pre selected for a seat, but There is a former union boss who's looking for that seat and they'll take it so it's not actually
targets give you a bit more wriggle room. It's like this is our intention.
Don't hold us to it. But no, but targets taken seriously have a great effect. I've seen it. We did it in the Turnbull cabinet when we decided to make it a 50% target for all government board positions. And there are thousands of positions in statutory bodies and agencies and government councils that the federal government appoints. And we were at about maybe 40% or something, and we made a concerted effort. We set a target of 50% and just after I left Cabinet, we hit 50%.
What it does is it makes people much more aware of the responsibility to find more women. And so if a Cabinet minister came in with four names for a position, and none of them are, women would say, Go away and find some women and it means they have to work harder. The women are there. It's not about competence or merit or qualifications. The women are there, they're willing, but you have to dig a little bit deeper and often ask, because women are very reluctant to put themselves forward.
Very reluctant to say I'm up for this and so often I found, you know, I had to make a number of appointments. I would ring a woman and say, I love you to go on X y z board and they'd say, Oh, do you think I'm right for it? A man would never ask you that and say yes or no whether they want it or not. But women say a little bit concerned that they might not have the qualifications, they might not be up to the mark. So that's why it's important for other women to support women into
these roles. So targets work the Liberal Party as a way to go. And I've been part of a new group in Western Australia called Emergent Women, where we have gone out and identify young women between about the ages of 25 40 in business in community groups in the professions, and asked them to come along to a few events. They don't have to join the Liberal Party, just come along and be part of debates on policy issues on matters of concern to them.
And we are building a pool of women so that when a pre selection comes up, you actually have a pool to draw from a pipeline of women who would be ready, mentored, hopefully into what it's like to be a politician.
It must be a pretty hard ask, though, trying to convince women to come along and be part of the Liberal Party. Given the last year given we've seen Kelly Dwyer leave with ST Julia Banks claim that she was bullied and and a small is also that that she was subject to bullying. You were treated really shabbily, I believe and left. Why would women want to join a party that seems to have such, in some cases, open contempt for women? And that's certainly even at best does not seem to be
a place where a woman could thrive in a political career. Well,
I don't accept your characterization. I was the deputy leader of the party for 11 years, reelected time and time again by my colleagues, so they had faith in me as the deputy and I was appointed to my dream job, which was Minister for foreign affairs. I couldn't have been more honored and privileged in a role. And so from my point of view, women have achieved some great things in the Liberal Party.
What we need to do is encourage young people to be interested in public office generally that men and women, because politicians tend to be, um, on the nose, condemned roundly for whatever they do, whether they're doing good things or bad things. And as a class, though, they are not highly regarded. And so it is one of the most important jobs in the country. You're a legislator. You're part of making the laws that
affect our lives. So we want high quality people, people who represent the broad spectrum of the Australian community interested in public life. So I see it as a responsibility of all politicians to encourage more people to consider public office as part of their career path.
I don't want to do the gotcha thing and ask you the question about feminism, but I also kind of do not in a gotcha way. But I'm just in 2016, you were asked, Are you feminist and you kind of it's become this thing are your feminist, are your feminist. And you said at the time I'm from Western Australia and the foreign minister. I'm a liberal, but other than that, I'm not really into labels. Other people can call me what they want. Is that still your view?
Yeah, I don't understand why people keep asking me with the greatest respect. Judge me on what I do. I don't label myself a lot of things, but it doesn't mean that I'm how unhappy or uncomfortable. If other people say, Oh, Julie is a feminist because she supports equal opportunity and gender equality. What about? Look at what I do and as opposed to how I self described. It's just not a label I've ever attached to myself. And if I started doing it now, I think it would be
lacking in authenticity. So the media, it's kind of a game now. I'm not on my part, but the media say, Are you yet feminist? And I keep saying we'll have a look at what I do. I support women. I focus on gender equality. I put general quality at the heart of our foreign policy. I directed our aid budget to ensuring that it had a positive impact on women and girls. The empowerment of women and girls was a key theme of my foreign Ministry. So
you have been and remain such a role model for so many years in and out of
politics, not get hung up on labels. The reason I said I'm a liberal Lima with Australian as, um, somebody put to me, but we don't know. We don't know enough about you. If you don't call yourself a feminist, how do we know who you are? And I said, Well, I can tell you I'm a liberal, so that tells you my political views. I'm always Australian that tells you where I'm from. Um, I've been a lawyer, and now I'm a politician That tells you what I do. So
I was basically saying, You don't need labels. Just have a look at what I do.
What you do is beyond reproach in terms of equality. But when you say I'm a liberal and that's a word that describes my politics describes me. Isn't feminism also that I guess I call myself a feminist to say to describe the fact that equality, gender equality and is at the forefront of who I am and what I stand for.
People can call themselves whatever they like. I'm perfectly relaxed. I don't demand that other people call themselves this, that or the other. And I don't see why people should demand of me that I self described in a way that doesn't reflect my thinking. My thinking is, as a liberal, I'm into individual freedom and choice, and that, to me, is about gender equality, the freedom to choose the freedom to be.
And that's what I've sought to achieve in my time as a as a legislator, somebody who help make decisions on behalf of the Australian public.
I guess the reason people say Has it changed? Has it changed? You know, I watched John Howard being interviewed at the end of last year and had again just saying its merit. We don't need quotas. We don't need anything. It should just be Merritt, Merritt, Merritt, Merritt Merritt And I don't know. I suppose the perception that you would maybe be frustrated with that argument and not necessarily agree with that,
But that's why I've been talking about targets. I've seen quotas, not work. I've seen the perverse impact of quotas where people have been appointed because they had to because there's a quota. And that's not the right outcome either. Nobody wants to say I'm there because they needed to fill a quota. No, man, no woman wants to say that. I would have thought so. Yeah, yeah, Yeah.
When you were foreign Minister, you spent 50% of your time overseas. 25% in Canberra in 25% in
that right? I think it's about that. Yeah, that's right,
I imagine.
Or maybe it was a third. A third, a third? No, two thirds. One third between Canberra and the rest of the country. I imagine
you probably spent about 30% of your time on a plane.
I did a lot of time. Did sleep overnight many times on a plane. You must have become a
very good flyer. What was your routine?
Well, I just didn't have the luxury of jet lag. You just couldn't do it because I would fly when parliament wasn't sitting. And not many foreign ministers have had to be in a parliament where you had to be present. We didn't have a majority. And so you couldn't miss it. We had a we had a one seat majority at one point and then listen that and so I had to be there for votes. I was also the deputy leader, which meant I had to fill in for the prime minister and had a lot
of demands across the country. And so when I went overseas we had to be as effective and as efficient as possible. So we often flew overnight from country to country, not sleeping in hotels and sleeping on the plane and then getting back and starting a full day. So you didn't have days off in between to recover. So I decided that I couldn't do. Jet lag would have to get rid of that, not an option. And I would always try and get some sleep on the plane.
Always start the day with a run. Didn't matter what time I got in the night before or even early morning. I tricked my body into thinking it's 5:30 a.m. Time for run and I would run great for the endorphins and that's a really good way to start the day. But it also got you into the routine of the day, and that's important.
How do you know?
I don't think about what time it is back home. Where to
run, like how does that work? I noticed two things. Firstly, you always seem to be running with purpose. Even if I imagine you'd wake up some days and not even know where you were, So does someone map out the route for you? And I also noticed that you don't tend to run with earbuds or earphones in.
Well, if I were traveling overseas, the embassy and the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade would put together my itinerary, my schedule for the day, and they would include at my request, they would include a morning run, and so my security detail would work that out in advance and they would check out the places to run and not run. I remember one day we were running through the traffic in Jakarta, and the federal police officer
with me said this wasn't my idea. I didn't want you running through the traffic, so I didn't always take their advice, but they would work out a route. And depending upon how much time I had, we would run half an hour an hour, and I find you
very fit people to be your security detail. How did that work?
They came to that conclusion after I left one of the federal police officers. I shouldn't say they should have a long way behind. And I had to run back and get him. And I thought, This is This isn't the way it's meant to work. Is it
job for everybody having to. So they
So they did get to a point where they would ask for volunteers. So I knew that whoever was coming running would be able to last the distance. How far
would you run every morning,
Somewhere between six and 10. Case.
And do you have a rhythm with that? You don't listen to me.
You know, I don't I don't. I like to be very aware of my surroundings. And particularly when I was running in exotic places overseas, I wanted to absorb the sounds and smells and and the visual, um, observations were so important to me. And because so often we were in a place that would mean come in from the airport. I'd say in a hotel I'd go to a conference. I get back in the car, go back to the airport. I wouldn't see the city. So the run in the morning was an opportunity for me to get the
vibe of the place. And I tell you, there's nothing more exciting than running through the streets of New York at 5 30 AM, when the street cleaners are there and the people are just opening up their stores and whether it was whether it was in Suva or Port Moresby or Mumbai, I would always run around a part of the city to get the feeling of it. And it was fantastic.
Treadmill girl?
No, not at all. If I can run outside, I'll be outside a gym as a last option,
with all the work you have to do as foreign minister and as a politician in general, but particularly the foreign minister. A lot of dinners, state dinners, banquets, 10 course meals, plain food, I imagine hotel
rooms. How
did you plan that part of your life? Just the eating part and a lot of time. I imagine you wouldn't have control necessarily over what you ate.
It's very interesting. I should write a book on the banquettes I've attended. Uh, it was a challenge because you don't want to offend your hosts. And I think the key to it is just eat small portions of all of it. Try a bit of everything and don't overdo the desert. But I say that it's just I'm just saying it. Don't overdo the desert. I've got the sweet tooth from hell. I really do. I love chocolate, but I would just try and be careful, and then
sometimes I would fast on the plane. I wouldn't eat on a plane, and then I wouldn't feel so guilty about having to sit through a five course meal or more.
Would you have routines in your hotel room in terms of what you do to make yourself or trying all these different places? Try not to eat them anyway.
I try not to go near the mini bar. That's a start, because
it's very unsettling. The idea of sleeping in different beds all the time and
yes, well, when you're away for, say, what was about 110 nights overseas, there were times when I would wake up and then feel around me. Okay, where's my phone? Where's the light switch. Where am I? Where? Bathroom. That would happen. Wake up and think. Okay. Tuesday must be Belgium.
What's my hotel room number? I've forgotten.
I There have been occasions when I've been trying to remember. Somebody will say what was exquisite hotel like And I think I stayed there and I'll try and visualize what it looked like in my mind. And then I'll remember something like, Ah, the passageway. Remember the breakfast room yet? Something will come back to me. And I'll remember where you went for a run. Yeah, I remember my runs very well.
How do you pack?
With great difficulty. It's like a military operation rolling, folding, trying to work out day by day, what I'm going to need to wear. And this is something that guys just don't get because they can put in suits, shirts, ties, done. But for a woman, you're expected to take a cocktail, Frank, if there's an event or a suit or you're running here. And so if I were going away sometimes for 10 days at a time,
I sit at home and go through day by day. Well, I wear that outfit that day, that one that one and go through it and then work out the weather. And it's going to be hot cold because often I remember my last overseas trip as foreign minister. We went from North Asia to Southeast Asia, to Samoa and back to Sydney, and so it was going Northern hemisphere, Southern hemisphere, formal, casual and everything in between. So you just over time you learn to pack for any and all occasions.
Do you do your own hair and makeup? Because that's another tax on women in the public eye that men don't have to pay in terms of time
unless I'm doing a TV interview and you know how they have. They have makeup rooms and they make you look younger and brighter and fresher. But otherwise, no, I do my own hair and makeup and I don't have a stylist. I do my own clothes shopping.
I noticed you love fashion, which we all love about you.
Well, I don't apologize for it. You know who I am and if you want authentic politicians, you've just got to accept the fact that I love fashion. I always have, and I always will.
Your fashion style changed a few years ago, I noticed you used to wear brightly colored jackets and pearls. And then you started wearing a lot of Armani. More edgy, close, more dark colours. You became more, I would say, contemporary and more fashion.
You know there's a story behind this. Please tell it. Amazing. As a lawyer, I war suits, uh, a lot because that's kind of the professional uniform. And I bought my first Armani suit as a partner in a law firm, saved up enough and brought in the money suit. I thought Love it. When I was first appointed to the ministry, I was asked to be the minister for aged care for aging, and one of the prime minister's senior advisers rang me and said,
Julie, take this the right way. But forget the Armani suits. Forget the corporate. Look, you're the minister for aging. You're going into age care homes. You've got to dress appropriately and I'm there. I don't know. This is a guy telling me, What do you mean? What do you want me to wear? Like I am who I am? I've been a professional career woman for quite some time now, and I have a dress and how to get dressed, he said. You know,
like I said, What you mean like cardigans? And this is Before Michelle Obama turned cardigans into a fashion item. I said, Like cardigans. He goes, Yeah, more prints, more color, more down, up. Just not corporate. So you'll see me as minister for aging, looking like they expected me to look, that was, and then I thought, This is ridiculous. Don't let other people define who you are, what you wear be authentic.
And so I just decided one day of had enough of that, I'm going to dress the way I want to dress.
I love it. I was watching Amanda Vanstone on You Can't Ask That the ABC Show, and she strikes me as someone who also just really knows her style. She wears her bright prince short sleeve shirts with her skirts or slacks, and that's just her.
Well, that's right. You wear what makes you feel comfortable, happy dress for yourself. Don't dress for others, and I made that mistake. So I now dress very much for myself and sure you get criticized for it. But if I feel comfortable, if I'm happy with what I'm wearing. That's enough,
Julie. How do you date when you're a politician and you're the foreign Minister? I mean I mean, imagine there's no shortage of men around you all the time. But how do you actually have any kind of romantic or personal life?
I have a lovely partner indeed. How did you guys meet through Bruce Baird? See, you can have friends in politics. Bruce was the first person that I met when I became a new member of Parliament back in 1998. He had the opposite opposite mine, and we just struck up a friendship. We became friends, and we're friends. To this day, he introduced us
and you've been together, you and David for about five years or so now and used to travel a lot together. At one point, I think, um, Melania Trump confused you with one of the
wives. She told me that story. Well, I get into trouble with the White House when I tell this story. But Melania anymore. No. Melania assumed that David was the foreign minister and that I was the the partner and she asked me to her lunch the partners lunch the next day and I said, Oh, no, David's going And she was very puzzled. Why would Australia's
foreign minister turned up at my ladies' lunch? But she obviously worked it out the next day when David did turn up the lunch and he said he had a wonderful time, so he
has to be pretty secure to be to be dating you. You're pretty formidable and accomplished and beautiful and all of those
things. No, he's a very special person.
Can I ask you about a few different people? Barack Obama?
Yes, I met him on a number of occasions. He was a very cool, calm person. He had a delightful sense of humor, but it was very It was very laid back, a lot more informal than I had expected. And he was fun to be around. I met him here in Australia and in Washington and in New York, and on every occasion he would call you by your first name. There was a real informality about him that was quite charming.
He seems to have worn his, um, role, I guess, quite lightly. Like heavily in terms of he took, he took it. It was very responsible, obviously, and an extraordinary leader, but he seemed to not take himself too seriously. He seemed like he would be quite fun to be
around. He seemed to be quite relaxed in the role, and that was quite an attractive quality. Being around, you know, he was the leader of the free world, the world's only superpower. And you're the president. It's a a very substantial role. Let's face it. But he seemed to be very relaxed, remarkably relaxed in the role.
Did you read Michelle Obama's becoming
I started? I haven't finished it. I've got about eight books. I imagine you met her a number of times. Yes, I did. She's charming, delightful, likewise very accessible, very informal and very tall. She's beautiful. They're both very tall. I have my photograph taken with them a number of times, and I felt like tiny little person between these two glamour Zahn's. It was a bit intimidating.
Uh, did you make Donald
Trump? Yes, Donald and Melania. I know
you have to be diplomatic.
I met the president on a number of occasions. He is quite unorthodox. He's very confident, self confident and again because I was Australia's foreign minister. He was very warm and welcoming. I don't know that we appreciate how highly regarded Australia is on the world stage. And so it was such an honor to be Australia's foreign minister and turning up at these forums and meetings and conferences and the United
Nations time and time again. And people seem genuinely pleased to see you and genuinely respectful of your view, because you were from Australia, a country that is very highly regarded.
Haven't we lost a lot of skin in the last few years? The Italy of the Pacific and just with this ridiculous kangaroo style in and out of I was contacted
by a number of counterparts overseas who were puzzled. They were perplexed because that's not the image they had of Australia were one of the longest standing democracies in modern times, and people always equated Australia to political stability, many other things as well open liberal democracy, freedom and the rule of law and open,
export oriented market economy. There are things about Australia that stand the test of time, and this just went against their understanding of Australia and why were we changing prime ministers and then what was the reason for it? And they will be expecting some deep, substantial philosophical ideological divide, and it came down to, well, they don't like working with him.
That's pretty much why Malcolm Turnbull went like, Can anyone still to this day explain what just happened?
Well, I certainly wasn't the instigator of it, so I had no cause to want to see Malcolm leave, and I thought the polling was heading in the right direction, and I was confident that Malcolm would win the next election. But likewise, I'm confident that Scott Morrison will win the election so the policies do matter. And I think the Australian people trust the Coalition on Economic Management and National Security. Another two tenants, if you like, of a federal government.
When you met a lot of foreign diplomats and leaders, what were their ideas about Australia, like, what did they want to talk to you about? Was it koalas? Was it about Kylie Minogue like what was their pop cultural understanding of
where we see it in the world? Many of them had visited Australia, and there reference point was normally how clean and open and free we are as a society, and that's why when there was the Lindt Cafe attack, for example, people were shocked again. That's not what they expected to happen in Australia, and so were seen as a a country that is the envy of the world in so many ways were economically successful. We have a lifestyle, second, none, and the people are friendly.
So that's the image people have of us overseas. Many foreign ministers, for example, had been to Australia. A number had not. Now, this is an interesting one. John Kerry was US secretary of state, long standing foreign policy expert, and he came to Australia in 2016 as part of what's called Osmond the Australia US Ministerial Dialogue. He had never been to Australia, and I was quite taken aback by that. How could that possibly be a senior public figure in the US who had been a senator
for 30 years, had never found his way to Australia. Anyway, I remember the first press conference and he was saying to the media, I've never been to Australia before, and then I took him aside and said I wouldn't tell them that again. I wouldn't because they're just going to ask you why the hell not? But he was enchanted by the place. We had the meeting at Admiralty House, so in Sydney, and we took the
Navy's barge from the opera house steps. The manual steps over to Admiralty House, and the governor general, Peter Cosgrove, measures there. And John Kerry looked out over Sydney Harbour and said, This is amazing. So I added, This is why you should have been here before just to get an understanding of what Australia's really love. You
were the deputy of three different leaders. Brendan Nelson, Tony Abbott and Malcolm Turnbull.
Well, Brendan Nelson, Malcolm Turnbull, Tony Abbott, Malcolm Turnbull went in that order. So
Malcolm Turnbull,
Malcolm, tell
me about the relationship when you're a deputy to your to your party leader.
The interesting point about the deputy of the Liberal Party is that you are elected directly by the party room. It's about the only position that is not appointed by the leader. And
so he doesn't get to choose or she
Menzies, our founder, did this deliberately. He set it up so that there were two positions elected by the party room, the leader and the deputy leader. And that meant the deputy leader was actually answerable to the party room, not to the leader. So the leader couldn't sack the deputy. And I was very conscious of that responsibility and the role of deputy. You are the conduit between the back bench
and the leader. So while Cabinet ministers were appointed by the leader while chairs of committees were appointed by the leader, so he who gives can take away the deputy's position was elected by the whole party room. And so I was re elected a number of times by the party room. On the last occasion, I didn't stand for re elections.
Why didn't you? You
know what I was going to stand for? Leader, leader. And then when I didn't get through that test, I decided not to run for Deputy because I thought they need a new team. It would be wise for me to stand aside and let a new team start all over again. So that's what happened. So Josh Fredinburg stood and he was elected and I didn't stand. So I have an unblemished record as deputy.
There were some leaders that you seem to get on with better than others that you were more probably like minded than others. You and Brendan Nelson remain close friends. You and Malcolm Turnbull seemed to be a really good team.
I knew Malcolm from a long time ago. We met in the late eighties when he was a lawyer from Sydney and I was a lawyer in Perth, and our firm briefed Malcolm on some significant litigation. At the time. He had a long standing. So I know Malcolm. For a long time I've been to his birthday parties. I've got to know Lucy. Well, um, Malcolm's father in law, Tom Hughes, was a barrister that I briefed on many occasions. So I've known the Turnbull
family Turnbull Hughes family for many years. So Malcolm and I were friends before he came into politics. In fact, we both went to the Constitutional Convention. Back in 1998 he was heading up the Republican movement, and I was an appointed delegate from Western Australia as a female lawyer at the time. So I've known Malcolm for a long time, so we were friends before he came into politics, and we're friends to this day.
What about Tony Abbott?
Tony was my senior minister when I was the minister for aging. He was the minister for health, and so we worked closely together in professionally. We got along fine. We have different perspectives on a number of social issues, and so we're not as close, obviously. And then when Tony lost the support of the party room, he took it pretty hard and blamed a lot of people, and I think I was included in that group. I didn't ever undermine Tony. I never leaked against him.
I was a deputy as competently and as effectively as I could be. But politics can be a very tough, tough game, and people get disappointed about a whole range of things
when you're the deputy to a leader who you aren't aligned with, perhaps on things like same sex marriage, perhaps their beliefs about women. How do you manage that?
You respect that. Your views are different. You respect their views if they are honestly held and hope that they respect your views that are honestly held. But you can't expect to in the leadership team to have the same view on the same issues. The Liberal Party attracts people across a broad spectrum. John Howard always called it a broad church, and people have different views, different experiences, different perspectives and philosophies and values. And so you
work with that. You don't resent it. If you think it's worth advocating a change in position, you can give advice. But at the end of the day, everybody's responsible for their own position and own stance and own views on things. So I didn't ever see it as a problem that I had different views to the leader. In fact, in some ways it was probably good because it reflected the differences across the Liberal Party.
Do you have to make those challenges or put forward those counter arguments behind closed doors?
Well, generally, that's what leadership meetings and cabinet and party room meetings are for. The party room is not as confidential as one would like, but most certainly leadership meetings in Cabinet meetings are an opportunity to put different points of view, and that's important. You have to have robust debates and challenge ideas and challenge
people's positions. So you get the best outcomes, and I think that if you have a party full of yes, men or women, then you're not getting the best outcomes. You've got to have the debate about issues and values and ideas
just to finish up your last day, you had quite a lot of time to think about what you're going to say, what you're going to wear. A lot of people said you were white to represent the suffragettes.
There is symbolism in what you wear as a public figure without doubt, and I'm conscious of that. I don't get up in the morning and think Now, what statement shall I make today? Therefore I choose that. But I wanted him. I wanted to wear something that was fresh and bright and didn't meld into the green of the House of Representatives. Ugly, ugly green. Well, it's sort of a Tasmanian blue gum green, isn't it? How did you feel
when you got up and spoke for about eight
minutes? I had told the prime minister just prior to question time that I intended to announced that I wouldn't re contest the seat, I told the speaker of the House, and he said that he would give me time after question time. I thought the timing was right, and I simply made the announcement. It wasn't a valedictory. I didn't want to do the you know the legacy and and the perhaps somewhat self indulgent speech about what I'd achieved in my public life.
I just wanted to say simply, thank you, that it had been an honor and a privilege, and I was a fortunate person to have been able to serve in the House of Representatives. Not many people get to do that in history. And so I was very. I felt very proud of what I've achieved and the fact that I fulfilled a dream, and that was to be Australia's foreign minister.
You've got a standing ovation.
I was very touched by that.
But you didn't stick around well, it
wasn't a valedictory, so I have made my announcement. And then I thought, It's time for me to go and I didn't appreciate that either the prime minister or the leader of the opposition was going to say, you know, we're going to stand and say something. Nobody told me that they were going to speak, so I was back in my office then. Whoops. They're all on TV. I
mean, you said you felt relieved and all of those things. What's next?
I will assist in campaigning in western Australia, and perhaps something in Victoria, and then I'll start considering options. People have been very generous with offers and proposals. I hope to do something in the private sector, maybe in academia, and most certainly will continue in philanthropic and charitable roles and a whole basket of things. And I want to keep very busy. I'm sure I will and do a whole range of things that have, um, the ability to drive my energy and passion.
So I'm looking forward to it with a great deal of optimism and excitement, even
thanks for listening to no filter. After we recorded that chat, Julie came straight out into the mom and their office and was an enormously good sport for all the selfies we wanted to take. In fact, she directed the selfies. She's very good at it. She gathered us all together in a group they were about, I don't know, 50 of us that all wanted our photo taken and she was like, You move over here, you're getting
closer over there. And she sat down on the floor in those incredibly beautiful high heels that she was wearing. And she's just an absolute delight, So it'll be really interesting to see what she does next. Next week, on No Filter, David Gillespie joins me to talk about the way in which screen addiction is rewiring the brains of a generation and what we can do
about it. If you liked hearing that conversation with Julie and want more Australian politics and news and current affairs and really the stories behind all of those things, listen to our episode of our daily Show, the quickie about whether or not the Liberal Party have a woman problem. Spoiler alert. They do search the quickie liberal in your podcast app will follow the links in our show Notes. No filter is produced by Eliza Ratliff. I'm Mayor Friedman, and I'll see you on Mamma Mia. Yeah.