Jess Cattelly Turned a Third Date Into a Swingers Empire

She said, you're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

Mama Miya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on.

The way that I see it is we have like our swinging relationship and then we can open that up and have like our primary partner.

So Lawrence was my primary partner, and.

I was exploring my sexuality with both women and men. I had a girlfriend and I had a couple boyfriends at the time too.

Hello, I'm Katelinebrook on today's No Filter. I'm talking to Jess Katelly. Today's conversation is about a world most of us have only ever heard whispers about. It's the world of swingers clubs. When she was just twenty, Jess Kittlly went on a third date that would change her life. Her date, a man named Lawrence, suggested that they open a swingers club together.

And she said yes.

A decade later, that club, Our Secret Spot, has become one of Australia's best known spaces for people exploring sex, desire and connection in unconventional ways. Jess now runs it with her husband Jamie, and together they've built a business that challenges notions of shame that celebrates consent and invites

Yeah, just a little bit over ten.

Okay, all right, but you're on your third date with a guy called Lawrence yep, and he says to you, let's start a swingers club.

Yeah, okay.

So I'm I think a lot of people would be like if we had that expression ten years ago, they would have been like, red flag, red flag it. But you saw and heard opportunity. Yeah.

Look, I clearly didn't understand what something crazy was because I, like you said, I saw an opportunity, but I also saw an area of growth that I wanted to learn about, and I didn't actually have a full understanding on what swinging.

All the lifestyle was yet.

So being presented with an opportunity to both grow mentally and also experience some fun physical things, I was very much on board. I was a very proactive twenty year old, as it sings, and very into a new adventures. So back in the day, my mentality, which is still my mentality, is grab every adventure that you can and continue with it. So it was a very big adventure and it's thankfully being one of the best adventures that I've gone on.

Tell me a little bit about your family background, because I think the belief would be that you must have come from a very unconventional background to be this open sexually open.

So I came from a very normal and very basic style family. So we went religious, but we did everything every normal family does. You know, have Sunday dinner together, I did after school activities. I was an exceptional in school, but I did school. We all had friends.

There was nothing.

Really sexually proactive or physically or mentally proactive that I did as a family. I actually didn't end up telling my family that I opened a swingers club until two years into running now, so I kind of.

Kept that a little bit of a secret.

When we started being twenty, I think I was already a bit of a black sheep, just being so outgoing and so over the top and continuing to do all these big adventure stuff that I didn't really want to. I guess worry my family that I was in something that might have been a bit too deep or a bit too full on until I felt like it had some established legs and it was there to continue growing, but yeah, to use into opening the club. That's when

What work were you doing when you met Lawrence and how did you meet him?

Lawrence and I met when we both were working at David Jones. I was a retail operations manager for Mimco, so he was a security guard at David Jones. Came past one day to roupt a really cute little rose on the desk and wrote a note asking to go out on a date. I thought that was really sweet and really cute, and then the next week we went on.

A date, and so that was the first of the three dates, and then on the third I can't even imagine how this comes up in conversation.

Paint the picture for us.

Yeah, so Lawrence is very good at I guess, portraying a very confident and calming way of discussing things. He on the first date told me that he was a swinger, told me about the lifestyle that he'd been living with his ex and how he wanted to continue pursuing that. Being twenty, I thought, this is great. I get to have sex with multiple people. I can't wait. On the cusp of the beginning part, so and got the brief

What the layout will look like.

So we really fast tracked our relationship both mentally and physically, because within three months after that, we were signing on the contracts to take over the first club and start putting all the furniture in.

So we went really quickly.

So at this time, so you're in a committed relationship with Lawrence, obviously you're like, this guy's great.

Yeah, all the lights are green.

Yeah, but your family must have been like, what kind of business are you setting out?

What's happening Somewhat, So I continue to keep my full time job still at Mimco as a retail operations manager, so I was doing the forty to fifty hours of that a week on top of trying to set up the new club at the same time. So I would go down in my full outfit in my worksuit and my white blood and up blouse and go and paint walls during my lunch break and then walk back to work.

Yeah, right, So you have at this point like never even set foot in a swingers club.

Or a swingers party.

Not at all, So my first time in a club was my own.

My first swingers party, I guess was more like a dress up party rather than a swingers party. There was a lot of swingers there, so I got to have conversations with them and talk to them about just the life and their lifestyle and how they live it. Because all the knowledge that I have from swinging came from Lawrence.

That i'd seen before.

Yeah, because your focus was very like you said, you wanted it to be female friendly and you wanted it to be a place where women would feel free to go and be seen and participate. Yeah, how did you know what that meant? Were you just guided by what you.

Would have liked?

I think a lot of it was guided by what I'd like and what I would feel comfortable in that environment. Being twenty as well, I was going out to nightclubs with friends and I hated them. I'd always felt people were looking or they it was slimy, I'd feel people's energies were a bit off.

It was always very predatory.

So I wanted to make sure that if we opened a venue where sex was a possibility, I wanted to make it feel so safe that anyone could come in and not feel obliged to have to participate. So ensuring that there was areas where people could have time to chill, times to have conversations, safe areas where it was in the open, so if you sat down on a couch there was a lot of space around you so people

So just a little things that I know at a bar.

Buttonders are great, but they can't help you in every situation where I wanted to ensure that we had all of these options around for women and for men just to feel safe in a space.

So when you talk about staff members when you started, so when you first opened it was called our secret spot then yeah, yeah, and then how did.

You open it?

Like?

What was the nature for someone like me who's never set foot in a swingers club, Although I've been in clubs where they've got these dungeons and stuff, you know, where they've got a bit of BBSM staff, But who were the staff and what did it look like?

So our opening night was complete and not a chaos.

We also unforeseen to us looking at the dates, I think we were so just excited to open the club.

We opened on Mardi Gras.

So not only did we have the absolute chaos of being in Darlinghurst and having Mardi Gras around, we also had ninety people trying to come and see this new swingers club that had just opened up all at once, so it was people everywhere. We were nailing things to

So I guess also having them as friends as.

Well helped us to kind of work out the tweaks and get honest feedback on what we could improve on.

However, I find swingers being so honest.

They were very and more than happy to give us honest feedback then and there, so anything that we did need.

To improve from the club was improved on pretty quickly.

But I think any business using friends and hiring friends is great. But hiring friends can also be a problem, Yes, when you have to address something with.

Them, yes, Ken.

Thankfully, a lot of this was temporary, so our friends were in just until we could find our feet and find the right staffing. A lot of the friends that we did hire would only do one or two nights a month. At the time, we were only opening on a Friday and a Saturday, and for the first couple of years we weren't getting an excessive amount of people, so it was filling up. We were still working out what type of events to host to get it to

So you said that your first time going to like swinging was in your own club. Did that happen at the opening or did it happen down the track?

When was your first time?

So my first time as a patron was at the club and it was an event. We called it Jessica's Men, So it was an event where we had topless waiters and it was female centric for the beginning part because me identifying as a bisexual woman, I really do like the energy of women, so I wanted to have the beginning night where it was just women and adjust their energy and then partners or men could come in afterwards.

So the first two hours as women, then the men came in.

That was my first time participating and being a patron

So it was very different.

It did help me understand a lot about where things were positioned in the club and how nerve racking it can be. I take my hat off and still to this day to anyone that comes into this sort of environment, it is daunting.

It's hard, it's scary.

Bit I think that nervous energy really helps you enjoy your night even more when you are able to break down that barrier of nerve and come through the doors to experience it.

Well, what happens.

Do most people come through on their own or do they come through as part of a couple.

So currently we sit about ninety percent couples and ten percent singles. We normally get about five single men per event.

This has been curated by us, just because we feel.

That energy of more men within the venue does shift how it goes. We also predominantly promote a lot of our events four couples, but a lot of couples do come with other couples or other singles, so we find that's kind of why we've shifted towards a lot of couples, But we do have designated events for just singles to.

Mingle right, and it tends to be in all matter as sexual. Really you build it and they will come in every way, but the men really come, yes, So you don't want the women to be overwhelmed by the mean correct.

Yes, exactly. Men definitely have a lot more of a dominant energy. So being able to control the limit of how many men we have per event really helps relieve a lot of stress and a lot of anxiety for couples and singles. Where every single male that does come into our event is vetted, so we ask them just basic questions like have you been before, what are you bringing to the table, what does consent means, So just

Because of course you talked about consent earlier, how do you brief people about that? Is there a when people first come. I know that you get a tour. I've heard your podcast that you do with Lawrence, and people are given a tour, and then how do you have that consent conversation with them?

The way that we ensure that consent is delivered to everyone that turns up is that we always rely on telling people that consent is necessary.

In all aspects of the club.

So whether it's going up to have a conversation with somebody, we always say consent is sexy. So we try to use that as a way for people to have a first time conversation. On newbie nights as well, Laurence myself will always get up and do a talk to give people some one liners, some ins and outs of the club, and just basics on what consent means and what it can do for your relationship or for that scenario that's happening.

So you talked about newbie nights, So say I'm a newbie and I'm coming, what one liner are you going to give me?

My one liner is come looking for an experience, not an expectation. So come in looking to experience a new conversation, a new friendship, a new moment, and ensure that all conversations that you have, no matter whether it be small or big, starts with asking if everyone's okay with something that you're doing, or if you are people would like

So it's a personal for some I guess it's a personal connection as well, and for others it's just a purely sexual thing. They're like arouse and they're like, I want to be a part of whatever's going on.

Yeah, it's a very lucky lifestyle where me personally, like I've gained wonderful friendships from this, where some of my best friends have been because of this lifestyle. But then I've also gained friends where we have a solely sexual relationship where I will come in or they'll come into the relationship with me my hubby and we just have sex with them, or we you know, we will go out for a drink, we'll have a really like light fun conversation and then we end up having sex.

And then there's friends who were in the.

Lifestyle together and we've never had sex together, but I have some of the most deep and meaningful conversations with them, and they've helped me through situations that I just I need that sounding board. So I think because a lifestyle is so broad in how you can perceive it, you're able to build different types of friendships and relationships and it isn't always just about sex.

So you and Lawrence were building so it's twofold really because you were building this business together and you've obviously found something that's resonating in the market, a market that really probably you didn't even know was going to be as big as it was, or that people would be as open to it as they've proven to be. But you're also running your relationship with him, yes, and you're swinging yes. Uh.

Like I said, I don't like to do things in halves or slowly as it appears. I'm very good at throwing myself into the deep end, and I think that actually helped me learn quicker and also be a bit more confident in the way that I had these conversations to learn about what I wanted from a relationship, what I wanted from the club, and what I wanted for myself.

Lawrence and I are.

Still to this day were good friends, I seem like three times a week because we worked together so often. I think because of that, building our relationship together at the beginning and building the club together, we had really good, in depth and open conversations that it allowed us to continue to grow both as a relationship and as a business.

After the break, Jess shares what her first experience of swinging was like because he was experienced in this lifestyle but you weren't.

But you do seem like you took to it like a duck to water.

But did you have any issues initially because of what I considered to be a natural tendency to be territorial about the person that you are attracted to. Ye, did you have any issues like that when you started a the first time that you saw him with someone else, saw vice versa.

Yeah.

Look, I even to this day, I think jealousy is very prevalent in any sort of relationship you have.

We can all experience it.

I definitely experience it a lot at the beginning, but thankfully I was able to communicate quite well because Lawrence had always said, talk about things whether they're going to be sticky, icky, or heart So there was definitely moments where I didn't feel comfortable or I had these like X and I was a bit a bit thrown by things. And then I'd feel like I was taking two steps back because like, I've seen stuff.

In what sort of situation do you recall first experiencing it.

My first ick was when Lawrence and I we were playing and I'd said, yep, that's okay, you can go and play by yourself, because I thought I was ready.

It was a little bit too fresh for me at the beginning.

When you said he can go play so, in other words, with other people.

Yeah, So we were in a like a group situation, and generally we always tried to play together where we were in sight of each other. And Lawrence had asked if he could go and play with somebody else, and I said, yeah, look, I'm comfortable with that, go for it. And then once I guess my sex high had kind of stopped, where I'd come back down into the land of the living, I walked outside and then I'd seen him playing with another girl and I got kind of got that dick, and I was like, oh, wait, I'd

I think this was maybe two years.

Into our relationship too, so it wasn't it wasn't early on, but it was enough that I wasn't ready to have that open play yet. So we just worked through that as a conversation. We didn't involve anyone other than ourselves to have this conversation. It wasn't necessary to bring other

So I'd always kept feeling.

Like I had pulled us back, but I think it was one of the best things to be able to like, Okay, I'm not ready for this, so let's just jump back for a bit, and it's not stopping everything. And I think a lot of people sometimes forget that where just because something icky happens doesn't mean the whole entire thing stops. You're right, you just step backwards, you just go back to where you were.

Well, that's interesting. That's interesting because I think a lot of people would go, oh, look, we tried this, or you know a lot of people have been to the strips with their partner, a lot of women, and even that's been proven to be really confronting and brought up feelings that they, you know, deeply uncomfortable with. Ye, and then they retreat from that world. Ye, So they go we tried that that didn't work.

That's not for me.

But there was something in you that even though you you had those feelings, yeah, you went, but I'm going to persist. I'm going to talk to Lawrence about this and we're going to sort that out.

What was that drive?

I think it really helped having the club as well, so we were advocates.

At the time as well.

I think that kind of pushed me to ensure that I was bettering myself rather than giving up. I'm also a very, very understanding because I don't think everyone's perfect.

I know for a fact, I always continue to try and improve.

On things because I don't think I'm perfect, and I think that mentality is stuck being like I would really like to work on this because I think this has made me a better person. I've just got an ick, but I'd like to fix it.

Right.

That's interesting. In what way has swinging made you a better person?

I think it's allowed me to be more confident in myself and understand that I have like little ups and downs, I have little imperfections, and my imperfections have helped me become a better person. Or I've been able to find ways to work with my imperfections. It's also allowed me to be a better communicated both to my family as well as to my friends. I've had conversations with friends who aren't in the lifestyle, who I've known from high school, and I do feel like I get really.

Top line conversations and then nothing.

There's no depth, there's no meaning to it, and it's a lot of there's nothing to it, there's no grit, and I just I'm really fortunate that I can now have conversations with anyone wherever we go, and I'm able to get meaning and purpose from some of the conversations that I'm having.

Well, it's such an essential part of a person's makeup, their sexuality or any sort of sensuality. But it feels like the two year mark was very important. Was significant because it was two years in that you had that those feelings when you felt excluded from Lauren enjoying his play. And it was at two years you said that you

Yeah, I think it was where I kind of cemented the fact that this has given me more opportunities and more confidence in my life than anything else. And I was building friendships that I still have to this day during that time, and I think because of that, I was getting that boost and confidence from them.

To really strive to be in this lifestyle.

And I think I also learned with this lifestyle that it doesn't mean I have to be open I have to have sex with everyone. I can have that friendship in this lifestyle. I can have just a sexual relationship in this lifestyle. I can also build my connection with Lawrence.

I still have my day job, but I also have my night job.

Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on, Jess, back up, back up, because I mean, everything seems clear in retrospect. But the night that you were going to have that comment, was it at a family dinner?

How did you? How did it play out?

So my mom and my dad were divorced at this stage and they didn't spend a lot of time together, so it actually was at my dad's house. My mom came over to my dad's house and sat me down and we were sitting across like a dining table.

So it was just during the middle of the day.

Had you called the family, did you say I've got something to tell you.

Or yeah, so'm I was already going to meet up with my mom for the day to have just a light lunch, and I just kind of got this like this stomach feeling where I I just wanted to tell her, and then I was like, wait, I would not want to leave my dad out of this.

So I asked you if we could have a conversation together.

I said, it's nothing too serious, but it's something i'd really like to tell you guys. Of course, parents being parents, thought something horrific had happened to me. It was actually the conversation went really really well. I don't think there was a sigh of relief. Because both my parents didn't really understand what a swingers club was. It did take me a year to really help solidify the idea that a swingers club is about consent ethically non monogamous people.

It's a bit dirt, it's a bit sea like sleazy.

So being able to have that conversation being like, no, I'm safe, I'm really happy. And then they started meeting some of my friends from the life so and I think that really helped them understand that this decision, this path that I was on, wasn't a bad path at all.

Lawrence obviously because you'd been together for two years at this point. Yeah, and they obviously were on board with Lawrence as a partner for you. What was their first their first reaction? Can you remember when the words came out of your mouth?

My dad thought I was working out of brothel, right, and just clarifying that that was not what was happening.

My mom was a bit more of the.

Quiet type, so she she'd had a conversation with me, but it was more around just ensuring I was safe. My mom has always been a really good supporter and anything I do, one of my biggest advocates but she just wanted to make sure I was safe and I

And did they ever come? Have they come to see you at work? Have they come to.

See so now?

I probably would allow them to come to the club when I was not there, but I don't think that's in my parents. I have two younger sisters who have come and supported the club. So anytime we have a big event like the birthday or I have my birthday there, they've come and supported the club. Family members I haven't seen in the club. I don't think my family swing that way, but that's completely fine. I have definitely seen a bunch of friends. I have seen work colleagues in

Don't really family.

Yeah, that's right, that's right.

I'm reminded of that girl who on TikTok who had an only fans and realized that one of her subscribers was her stepdad or whatever, and it was just like, oh, there's sometimes that you don't necessarily want your family to support you both physically being there.

Yep. Yeah, I'm happy with the just the moral support.

And speaking of support, at this point, your relationship with Lawrence is going great guns yep, But at some point that started to was it a separation, an emotional separation, or a growing apart?

So with Laurence and I, it was definitely a growing a part. So we.

Probably six years into our relationship, we'd opened up the second club. Oh, we'd also opened up our relationship as well, so we were starting to date other people and we've been doing that for about two years.

So oh, we'd really expanded on our relationship.

Sorry, jes you need to explain this to me as well.

Yeah, so the swinging is not opening the relationship swinging itself is not.

Yeah, So swinging itself is where you can come and have a sexual experience or an emotional and sexual experience with your partner by yourself in that moment. Being in an open relationship means that you have a primary partner, you have somebody that you normally go back to, and then you can have multiple relationships from that. So, right, they're kind of like stages, is how I see it.

So Lawrence was my primary partner, and.

I was exploring my sexuality with both women and men. I had a girlfriend, and I had a couple boyfriends at the time too.

And this, I imagine is where requires some extra care. Yeah, because what you're talking about now is a real emotional level, yeah as well, not just physical.

Yeah, there's a lot. There is a lot to it. I with my current partner, we are not open.

I do not have the capacity to have that emotional relationship.

I know that in myself.

Now I'm definitely more of a sexual relationship style.

But I don't.

I just don't have the emotional capacity to give somebody else other than my partner more of my time and emotional capacity.

And so how did you come to that realization, because when you were with Lawrence you did have that capacity.

Yeah, Look, with Lawrence, I did.

I think Lawrence and I built a relationship from the beginning about conversations and being able to have these open conversations and really wanting to explore things together.

I think because.

We were so explorative already opening up our relationship really did feel like the next stage for us. We were also engaged as well at this stage, so I think having been engaged to him, I really did feel like I had that primary partner, and so I'd had that comfortable ability to, yeah, to go and explore myself both sexually with women and sexually with men, So I'd built relationships from that during that time.

Also, Lawrence had done the same.

We actually both met our respective new partners during this stage, so I've I met my husband and Lawrence met his wife.

So okay, see a nice little crossover, yeah.

Right, And it happened sort of concurrently. So you were obviously both feeling the same thing at the same time.

Yeah, So Lawrence had met his current wife before I'd met my partner, So I'd met my partner maybe maybe a year after. We both met Lawrence's wife together at the same time. They'd built a relationship which was all consensual because we were building on open relationships.

So you've had sex with Lawrence's wife, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, all right.

Yeah, yeah, and Lawrence actually met her in the club as well, just into that. So Lawrence had met her in our club with me at the same time.

We both met her at the same time.

So yeah, it does really intertwine quite a bit relationships in swinging and especially Lawrence and not mine.

And because you must be so attuned to like you said, there's like a physical connection, there's a number of levels to it. There's a physical connection, there's an emotional connection. Many people believe that there's also a spiritual connection in sexuality. But so when you were with Lawrence and you both met who's now his wife at the same time, did you since that there was that something between them?

I could definitely tell there was a stronger connection, and I don't think I saw it from the beginning that I was. Look, I was never worried about their relationship, but I think, like you said, we were both in tune of checking.

Out a little bit.

I think we both were building on the relationship and just kicking off boxes rather than nurturing that relationship that we were building. I mean, it's nurtured in the way that we are still really good friends. So I think that's where we were putting the nurturing into. But the sex and the love and all of that that was not getting nurtured on. So I think we were already

So this is Jamie, who you're married to now, and you have a one year old son.

I got a two year old, actually a two year old, Yeah, he just turned to And Lawrence also has a two year old with his partner.

He does indeed, so we have kids a month apart.

Wow, you do have something sympatico between you.

We do.

Indeed, it's a very interesting relationship because it's weird to say it now, but I think I say that our relationship is like a brother and sister relationship where we just know so much about each other. But at the end of the day, we both defend and support each other in every decision that we make. But I think a lot of our life decisions and our wants are quite still in the same line because we were already building that together. We've now just found other partners to build that with.

You're still business partners.

Yeah, yeah, still business.

So there's that consideration as well.

Yeah, so we still we pretty much see each other still three times a week. We're generally at the club working on new stuff for the business. We continue to have the same goals and hopes for the business as well, so wanting to expand the business, wanting to go into state. We have very good open conversations about this. So it's really helped build our I guess, our our life together as business partners because we're so happy in the lives that we've developed with our primary partners.

Don't go anywhere. Next, Jess explains what it was like bringing her partner Jamie into the club. How did you meet Jamie?

Manyone Tinder?

Very very yeah, very old school manyone Tinder. I was very transparent on Tinder too. I said, I'm here to find somebody to have sex with. I wanted to have a partner that was based off sex, and I didn't want to build a boyfriend or a relationship in that aspect. So that clearly didn't work at all.

Wow.

And yet he responded to that, he was like, yeah, I'm here for that.

Yeah.

And then at what point did you realize it was more than that?

I think early on I definitely felt like there was more from the beginning because Jamie was also just recently divorced, and I had to be also explained to him that I was still with Lawrence. I think a lot of our conversations from the get go were very transparent and

I think we both understood our paths weren't in.

A line anymore a list as a romantic relationship, so our split was surprisingly easy.

He sounds very pragmatic, Lawrence. Ye, but when he sensed the connection between you and Jamie and when you were like, oh, I don't want to be polyamorous or whatever, yep, that must have been for him a real sign that Jamie was.

The course that you were going to be following.

Yeah.

Look, I think quite similar to when I'd picked up there was more with his wife. I definitely think Lawrence picked up on the Jamie aspect too. We did have conversations about how I'd felt a bit more stronger towards Jamie. I was quite transparent with a lot of things, as was Lawrence. Again, I think that open communication was very strong in us, thankfully.

Because of the lifestyle.

So I think that really helped us not feel a shame for having these conversations with each other. And I think that also helped allowed us when we did break up, have it really solidified that we understood weren't breaking up because we didn't like each other as people.

It's just we weren't the right people for each other.

So when you met Jamie and I'm imagining. Maybe I'm wrong, but he had come from a more traditional sort of model of relationship. You said he was divorced. How did you introduce him to all of you?

I threw him in the deep end, so I told him from the get go what I was into. I told him about the club. I was always very transparent about owning the club. Basically, it was our ninth birthday at the club, and I.

Invited him to come along as a single guy.

At the time, I was still with Lawrence, and he was kind of left by himself for a little bit, just to see how he'd suit in the situation, how he would be around this lifestyle. Jamie seems to swim so well. He just gets on with everyone, has conversations, is very comfortable in his own self and able to

Was the one and what was his thing? Was he waiting for you?

Yeah, so Jamie.

We always call him a pleaser. So Jamie's there to ensure that everyone has fun. He loves being able to give everyone that really nice high and that really beautiful connection. Jamie and I both identify now more as monogamish, where if the situation arises, then we're into it. There's no set label that we fall under where you know, we want to both be open. Jamie couldn't see himself either being open, which is where that conversation about the.

Polygue didn't really work out.

We've had sex with multiple people before, both with couples in groups with singles, so we've explored a lot of those elements as well together. He was exploring it while we were still dating at the beginning, to see what

So, jess if you think about it now, or maybe you were conscious of it at the time, inviting Jamie to the club that first time, was it kind of a taste.

Definitely for me because I had already established myself in the club and in this lifestyle. It was very intentional to see how he was with the type of people that I was building my life with, and also to understand if he was comfortable being able to communicate with me if he wasn't right, and thankfully he succeeded very very well. He was very much impressive. It actually helped me find more things to love about him on that day because he was able to help me out during

Club and he was.

I think we actually ended up having sex in the back storeroom, just out of being so sexually attracted to the fact that he was a swimmer not a sinker.

Hey, what did he wear?

By the way, So he wears his I always call it the classic Jamie look. He wears black jeans with a black button up shirt and always a black blazer. My boy doesn't have anything colorful in his wardrobe at all. It's black, white, or gray, and he's got the salt and pepper hair, so I think it really suits his demeanor and his look.

And what do you wear?

Oh?

Is it different if you're going if you're working, But then work might end up being pleasure as well.

Look, I wear whatever my mood is feeling.

I've learnt to be comfortable but be sexy, so I try and wear generally, like a pants suit is my go to right now, or a black dress. I'm really loving like block colored pantsuits, so I wore a green.

One the other day. I've got a beautiful burgundy colored.

I always wear my trusty Louis Bitton's and if it's a specialized event, you always find me in a glooms dress.

A glomish very cold.

It is very cold, but I overheat extremely quickly and I'm always sweating up a storm, so I find it actually the cold metal on me is amazing.

The other thing I'm curious about is my husband had a couple of nightclubs, and when they're flying, they're great, but most of the money is obviously from booze. But because you because of licensing restrictions, you're a byo venue.

Yeah.

Yeah, so you're not making money from booze. How do you make money? And is the business lucrative enough to sustain you now and your partners?

Yeah so surprisingly, yes, it is extremely lucrative. It allows us to have a full time manager, a full time admin person and seventeen staff members.

Wow.

Yeah, So we make a lot of our money basically through entry. We also have merchandise and we also have an online members area, so having those different elements does help keep it coming in.

But we also do operate four days a week.

Right, And do people join?

Can people join as like a subscription so they a member of the club for a year or do they pay per event?

Yeah? So people pay per event.

All our tickets are found online and we post them all a month out. Most events are sold out two to three days before the event actually happens.

When it comes to.

Membership, it's solely for an online forum where they can talk and communicate with people who want to come to the club, or haven't been to the club, or are deciding to come to the club on a special event, and they can discuss and talk about it.

There Hey, what snacks? Do you have? Sex makes you hungry? What happens?

So we actually have an air fryer there, and we love a good like Aaron Chiney boll mozzarealistic and my manager is exceptional and will cut up carrot sticks for people and have dip and carrot sticks for everyone.

So where do the carrot sticks end up? Jazz?

I'm hoping in their mouth, but anything's possible in the club.

Something I'm interested in is I found for me that after I had children, and I've had four of them, that my relationship, certainly in that immediate postpartum period, my relationship with my body was very different than it had been previous to having children, and I felt kind of a bit more protective or a bit more vulnerable or I really haven't analyzed it in terms of what it would mean for you. Did you experience any of those changes after you had your son?

Funny enough, I probably have had sex with Jamie with more people since having Oliver, right.

I think it was just.

Our opportunities have become a little bit easier because now we're finding couples or people who have kids as well, and so our conversations feel a lot more comfortable, and so I think that kind of flows really quickly into.

Being able to have sexual conversations.

But I definitely because I opted to have a C section rather than giving a vaginal birth. I also pushed myself when we traveled six weeks after giving birth to Olli to go overseas for three weeks for two weddings. So I think, again, I'm just very strong minded and very strong willed, and if I want to do something, I'm going to do it. I read up before having Olli that people did somewhat lose themselves into becoming mothers, or there was a lot of shift in how they

I think it does also help that I work extremely crazy hours.

I'll do twelve hour days and then come home see Ollie throughout the nighttime and then end up working until one am and go to sleep. So so I think I've just made it work rather than pulling back and giving myself time to take on things that I didn't know if I couldn't. Motherhood's definitely changed me in a way of making me more loving and caring and consider it. But it definitely didn't take away an my drive or my sexuality.

And if you did find that, you were pulling in a different direction. So you're monogamish, you and Jamie, But if you wanted to be monogamous, how would that play out within the relationship.

Yeah, so we've had that conversation before where sometimes we'll feel like, you know, maybe we've had an experience where that particular person and that couple didn't really suit our vibe or how we sexually wanted to interact, and we've pulled back. When we say we're monogamish, I think it's more because I would be happy to just have sex

We have solidified such a great relationship together.

And it's very compact in how we sexually explore, because sometimes I'm more inclined to grab a toy out and play with a toy with Jamie then call up a couple or go to a swingers club. But I think also I get hindered by the fact that I own a swingers club, so.

The only one I want to go is mine, And if.

I go there, I end up working half the time, so it's not as it's not as easy to just slip that one in.

Well.

Also, because if you work for Coca Cola, you get sacked for drinking PAPSI, so you kind of have to You have to support your own business. But in light of that, if you're at a night at the club and and you're getting amongst it, yeah, and then Jamie's the Lawrence is there? Do you and Lawrence still get physically involved or did that end with your relationship ending?

Yeah?

That ended when our relationship ended. Lawrence and I strictly platonic now so we're just friends.

Oh that's interesting, isn't it. Yeah?

Did you make that decision for clarity or did attraction kind of, just like you said, become brotherly and sistently?

What was the decision making?

I think definitely for me, he changed in the way that I did see him more as like that older brother rather than as a sexual partner. I think it really helped that he was always that person I got advice from when I needed stuff about swinging, being the person that mentored me, I guess into it. I put him into more of a like.

A brotherly hat.

I think it also just really helped with our relationship to build us back up quickly as friends and to really strengthen that to not involve sex into it at all. I think sex sometimes, especially with x's, can get a bit messy.

Do you a little bit it's happening.

Yeah, I think we just it was nice being able to put all of our energy into the club rather than trying to put into energy of making something like that work. I think also we both had found sexual partners that were ticking all the boxes that we needed, so I don't think we felt like we were missing that in each other.

So then do you actively avoid each other?

Because I know, no, we don't actively avoid each other.

Okay, thankfully we kind of swing in different circles now funny enough, but we do have mutual friends that we cross over with We've not ever had to be in group situations where it's going to be awkward. We have had conversations about if we are in a group situation, we need to.

Make that work.

Yes, we're both adults, we've both run the club together for over a decade now, so I think we're very confident in the way that if Lawrence wanted to play with his wife in the room and I wanted to play with Jamie, we would just one of us would just make it work.

And just go somewhere else, like it's there's nothing difficult to it.

And then would Jamie and Lawrence's wife ever get together or not?

No, So they've never got together, and I don't see that happening, not out of I think they both have attraction and they both think they're attractive, but I just don't think our relationship the four of us works that way.

Yeah.

I wanted to ask you about because I'm someone who doesn't feel a great degree of physical attraction to people without having some intellectual and emotional connection.

Yeah.

So at a swingers club, what is stronger?

Is it the physical attraction and then you get immersed in the physical look.

I think it's a bit of both people who have been to the club a lot more regularly find it's the more meant and I think for first time is it's more of a physical because you work off the easiest thing, and sites is always easier than having long, in depth conversations.

Right.

I do find physical does still take a big chunk into a lot of everyone's play or time with each other. Physical is normally the one that people get attracted to the easiest. But I think people stay or people build those extra connections with those mentally because they have similarities or they have something that they both actually want to try together, and I think that's why they kind of deviate to stay in relationships like that.

It's interesting because I was listening to the podcast and you and Lawrence were talking to a couple who'd been to the club and they went kind of as newbies admits some people before for a drink and they went to the club and they were both like, when we're just coming to look, we just want to be able to have sex in front of other people.

That's like our king.

We're not going down the rabbit hole, We're not whatever, And then they ended up in basically an orgy. How often do you say inhibitions totally put to one side.

Often.

I think that's where we say, like, don't come with an expectation, because if you expect something to happen, you put such a pressure in yourself and it normally doesn't. So if people just come thinking we'll have a conversation, you're more likely to then feel comfortable to have conversations, to build yourself to jumping into a mill of an orgy.

And then after that, I imagine that people sometimes have a very pronounced physical response, like it happens sometimes after a yoga class, So I can imagine after you've been involved in an orgy that it might throw up similar emotions.

Do you witness that a lot?

I think I witness a lot of people having con stations a little bit more in depth after an orgy and feeling a bit more attracted. I guess because they've had that sexual connection, but I don't think it. I think they still have that connection to their partners and kind of feel like they have them by their side, but they're able to then explore some of the other elements that they've just.

Had and because it's so hardwide in us. Yeah, these notions of faithfulness and fidelity and.

The association with shame.

Do people feel that afterwards sometimes as well?

Look, I think there is those ups in the downs.

I know I've definitely had that kind of cloud that comes over after a moment and being like, Oh, should I have done that? Or did I like watching that part? Or did he noticed this or did I notice that? Like, I think you always have a doubt in your mind. I think doubt is prevalent in all types of situations.

Then, I guess for us, at least rehab sex.

Again we end up finding that really fun element where I didn't realize he noticed me doing this, and he didn't realize I saw his like orgasm vase, which I always find amazing. So then we end up having sex again because we're like, well, that was really hot to A have a conversation about, but B see the fact that we were both having fun in that situation too.

When you say Compersian, that is the concept of enjoying your partner's enjoyment.

Yeah, exactly, So you have enjoyment or happiness or you get thrilled by the fact that your partner is sexually and emotionally enjoying themselves in that moment with that person, with that situation.

Conversely, there must be instances because people are at their most vulnerable and the most exposed, where people are in danger of flouting people's boundaries, or where you're like, sometimes this seems like it's a bit borderline violent. Have you had instances like that and how do you intervene?

So thankfully No, thankfully with the club as well, I think we're so prominent with the fact that we need to be sure everyone's feeling safe and protected and sexy, that we never really get those really.

Dangerous or bad moments.

I think also people come, especially to the club, or at least when I've experienced stuff, it's people are coming to want to enhance the relationships or enhance themselves rather than take out on somebody or do it for a negative or an angry way.

I know there's definitely moments where people get angry.

Yeah, because I would think that people because it's such a primal for someone's sexuality, I would think that maybe in those moments, you've witnessed things that are like, oh, we just need to keep an eye on this. Or have you ever had to ask anyone to leave?

Yeah, we've definitely had to ask people to leave, But it's mainly because they've got a bit too intoxicated. I think people get a bit, a bit worried or a bit concerned that they may not be enough or they may not perform. And as much as we can tell people not to drink too much, sometimes people just drink too quickly.

With the whole primal thing, I think a lot of that.

Especially because as sex involved, people already have one layer of themselves off, so they're a little bit more, a bit more intimidated, a bit more observant of the fact that they are exposed. And I think you find people aren't as primarily aggressive.

It's more they bring out that.

Please aside in them where they want to be pleased, but then they want to please that person. And when you sense all that vibe around the room, I think a lot of the female energy, which is why we have a heavier way in having females in the club, really brings in that sensuality rather than aggression.

Why had no one thought to appeal to women before.

I think it was just a lot of men around clubs.

I was one of the first women to run a club with my partner, and I like it's definitely become a lot more evident in clubs that are now opening up in other states that it's couples opening clubs rather than men opening clubs. From my understanding, all the clubs prior to our Secret Spot were all solely based ran by men, and I think because of that, it was

And I think with that shift.

That we've had throughout the years, it definitely women do dictate a lot of what happens inside the club and inside the lifestyle, because if women are comfortable, women are more vocal than men are, so having that comfort from us really allowed to explore and continue to have the club.

Who do you think is more open minded men or women?

I think it's definitely shifting to be both. I think before women were a bit more open minded, but I think, look, I think it's kind of fifty to fifty. I think we just have different perspectives on what we think or what we want as an open mind. I know in the club, at least swing wise, it's more common to have bisexual women or more of that women interaction play, but we've definitely started in the past couple of years

I think everyone's going to give it a go.

Your son, when will he find out what your business is? So he's two now, so he's a while off. I imagine he didn't bring your parents to work. I can't imagine you'll bring a kid to work day. But you must have discussed with Jamie when you'll introduce him to a concept of what you do.

Or we'd always discussed as soon as he was understanding of what it was, we'd broach the subject. We wouldn't obviously dig deep into it, but we would definitely brush on the topic that you know, mum owns a swingers club. We try and use words like the lifestyle club, it's an adult playground, that sort of things to give those terminologies that everything's consensual, it's nothing.

Bad, it's just a lifestyle choice.

Sometimes it's a decision in how people want to explore themselves. I think as long as we continue to have that really open clarity about it. I think early on Ollie will probably be quite well aware of it and hopefully be a good advocate to his generation, because I think the more that we can educate everyone, the better it'll get.

At what age do you think, in an abstract sceence, that that would happen.

Oh, I'm hoping it's when he gets into high school, right just before he hits into.

That high school teen years.

But I mean, it could be later, but I sense it'll be earlier, just because we're.

So open and with socials, with socials, yeah, and other kids, it could be earlier.

I have a suspicion that it probably will be earlier, especially with the way that, like you said, social media has taken off the amount of things. I've watched women put condoms onto bananas in TikTok, and it's just that was something if I watched on Instagram when I was in my twenties, it would be banned. I would never be able to have any social media account. Now it's

Club speaking of condoms.

One of the things that I think has connected you with the people that you know enjoy our secret spot is the kind of humor that you bring to it that often I think was removed from sexual encounters. And it made me laugh when I saw a picture of your condom dispenses and it was regular large A puppy.

Yeah, yeah, maybe it's important to have a bit of humor in it. Embarrassing moments happened during sex as well, so I think as long as you can see the light and happy in it all, it actually does make the experience better. But I'm always impressed when somebody thinks they're and I are puppy condom size because I can.

Being over my hand. So it's a big keena.

Yeah right.

How many genuine eye puppies are there on a standard weekend?

Maybe one?

Oh, Look, we have up to one hundred and forty people every event, so I'm going to say maybe like a handful of those would fit that condom size more often than not. The regular is the size that a lot of people are so, like you're six to seven inches, That's why it's called regular, right, It's the size that most people take. But you find a lot of people use a large size. But honestly, when you're at the club, people aren't looking at what the condom size you're taking.

But you find first timers always go.

For the bigger size just to give themselves that little bignuroty that they're a bit bigger than they are. But at the end of the day, as long as you do well with that pennis or whatever, then I'm happy.

Like a teenager at a seven eleven, they're trying to big themselves up. Yeah, Jessica, Telly, you are so fascinating.

Where do you think in ten years time you'll.

Be probably still doing this. I have found my passion in this. I enjoy being able to be an advocate for something that ten years ago wasn't easy to talk about, So I'm more than happy to continue doing this. I think Lawrence and I are both wanting to expand the business, so we're looking to do a full Eastern seaboard takeover within the next ten years.

So a franchise.

Yeah, keep going, keep building, make our secret spot all up and down the coast.

But yeah, definitely building on that.

Jamie and I are in the talks of having our second child soon, so I'm just ensuring that all works out really nicely before we open a second business.

Well, Jesse, I don't know how much you know about sex, but you know babies don't come through talking.

Yes, well, we've definitely practiced.

I've just I've just held off of the securing the practice inside.

Yeah, right, okay, Okay, Jessica Kelly, thank you so much for joining us on No Filters.

Thank you.

That was Jess Katlly, a woman who's built her life around curiosity, connection, and an unconventional idea of what relationships can look like. Whether or not her choices are for you, what's clear is that Jess has found a way to talk about sex, jealousy, and love with unusual honesty and a good dose of humor. Thanks for listening to No Filter. The executive producer of No Filter is Nama Brown. The senior producer is Pre Player. Audio production is by Jacob Brown,

See you next Monday.