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Just want to say that you are going to be hearing from some wonderful Muma Mea voices over the next few weeks as I work on another project. Hollywayen Wright, Claire Stevens, a Nama Brown, who is the executive producer of this show, are all going to be sitting in my chair for a few weeks and doing the same wonderful interviews that you know and love from no Filter.
There are some great conversations coming your way about red and green flags in relationships, sex and porn, addiction, escaping from a religious cult, narcissism, sobriety, and more.
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You know, if we're susceptible, if we've got particular needs, you can bet that the narcissists will find those out and give us and tell us exactly you know why they understand us. But it won't be too long until there'll be something that happens where the devaluation starts.
For Momma Mia this is no filter and I'm Holly Wainwright. You might know my voice from Mamma Mia out Loud or from mid but today I'm on no filter and I have some questions for you. Have you ever been love bonded by a new partner who just seems amazing, like you've never been appreciated like this before, only to
have them go cold as soon as you've committed. Have you ever been in a relationship with someone who made you feel crazy because of their ability to seem so great in front of other people and yet quite a nightmare behind closed doors. What about a boss who steals your ideas, your thunder and your inspiration, or a parent who always made your life about them. Well, according to my guest today, chances are you've been involved with a narcissist. Now,
narcissism is a word that gets thrown around a lot. Now, it's very much in the zeitgeist, and everybody's ex seems to have been a narcissist. But what really is one? How do we understand it? What are the red flags? What do you do if you realize you're in a relationship with a narcissist? And can a narcissist change. Margie Boden is a counselor and a coach, and importantly she is a narcissism expert who has all the answers and
quite an amazing story. Let's jump in with Margie. Narcissist is a word that feels like it's sort of thrown around a great deal at the moment in particular, and we're going to get into some of the different types of narcissists soon, but broadly, how do you know if somebody in your life or the person you're in a relationship with might be a narcissist.
The simple answer is, for so many of us, we don't. We simply don't know. And the impact that it does have on those people, you know, survivors who are living with someone with narcissistic personality styles or traits or patterns, is that they start to suffer. You know, it's in the DSM five, But you know, the narcissist doesn't really suffer. It's the person usually that they're living with. So if it's the child, if it's you know, the partner and
the kids. In the workplace, it's those who work for the narcissists. So that's probably the most distressing thing that for so many people right now, I know, even you know, via Instagram, I've got people saying, you know, they may have been desperately unhappy in a relationship for thirty forty years. But I'm not sure if there are no narcissist, is if what are the signs are you experiencing? And so you know, they might say, well, I'm desperately lonely, and
then it's the behaviors. So I guess it's probably helpful to sort of look at the types of behaviors that you might be experiencing again and again, and then if I tie them into their traits, it.
Is actually a recognized personality disorder correct narcissism. Yes, But then, as you also expressed, there are traits and behaviors that fall under the umbrella of narcissism too. And I guess, so what you're sort of saying is it's very hard to know whether or not your partner or somebody in your life is an actual clinical narcissist, but there are behaviors here that are making affecting your life in a negative way.
That give you a good clue. I guess is that accurate?
Absolutely? I mean, you know, that the number of narcissists that are actually diagnosed, obviously are very few because narcissists don't tend to front up to therapists and say, can you please help me? I've got a problem. I'm destroying people's lives.
Because that's not how they see it.
Correct, that's that correct. So that's actually part of you know, the pattern of personality traits, you know, which include probably number one is that lack of empathy. That they just have no empathy. And if you're living with that, you go, you know, you don't understand, how could you say that? How could you do that? Why would you do that
to me? Don't you care? And it's no. So what you often hear people describe the narcissist, You know, there's selfish or plenty of people are selfish, so what, that's not a big deal. So they're a bit selfish, But you know, for the narcissist, it's an absolute lack of empathy, grandiosity, you know that I am really more able, more capable than really I am. Extremely they're entitled. You know me first, why wouldn't I be able to do that? Because you
know I'm entitled to do that. They're looking for excessive validation and admiration. I think everybody envies them. They're pathologically selfish, they're pathological liars, they have sensitive they're sort of the things that you'll see, I guess more in the DSM five. But then the things that I tend to work with clients is how's it showing up for you? Yes?
Because to be honest, Margie, when you just run through that list of people, two things came into my mind. One that sounds like a lot of alpha males that I have come into contact with, yes, And two they sound awful. Of course, so if you knew that somebody was, if you know, if in the early stages of meeting somebody with those traits, you would imagine that you might run a mile. But narcissists, am I correct, can be very charming, very persuasive, very good at love bombing.
Look they've actually got you know, like I know, Rominy de Vassala says, you know the three seas of Nazism. There's charm, charisma, and confidence. Right when you meet them, you know they're charming, they're charismatic, and their master manipulators. So they go through an abuse cycle and you know the first part of that cycle is you know, that that love bombing where you'll be dazzled by this knighting shining armor who says, you know, you are not like
all the other women. You are the love of my life. And they actually it doesn't matter where in the world that you are. They're using the same types of things. You know, like I'll hear all the time from around the world, like I'll put something up and there'll be women and men all around the world say, I can't believe that. You know how my partner, that's how they speak. How do they all use the same language. You will absolutely wooed. They learn as much as they can about you.
And you know, if you like baking chocolate fudge, what do you know? So they right, So you know, you feel this incredible connection to this person who you think, oh my gosh, like this is extraordinary.
And women are probably and I mean I know that this isn't a gender specific disorder.
I know they are female narcissists.
But women are probably particularly susceptible to this early stage love bombing because we've kind of been sold a story that that's what falling in love is, right, fireworks, obsession, They get you in every way, big grandiose gestures of their commitment. Like we've kind of been convinced by all our fairy tales, whether they're actual fairy tales or romantic comedies or whatever, that that's what loves like. And it sounds like narcissists are very good performing that role.
Ah, they're completely formative, right, They're very very performative. So you will get this incredible performance, sexual performance. They will wow this this person is who However, you know, all of this stops. You can't keep on. You know that's not authentically who they are, so it stops, which then leads to the next stage of devaluation. It's ever so soft, but you're you've already bought into the dream. You've been told I love you, you are my soul mate and
we will be together forever. Now you know who doesn't like you're just an ordinary person who doesn't believe that. Why would someone lie to me and tell me that if they tell me that, if they didn't mean it. And of course, you know, we bring to the story our own vulnerabilities, if we're susceptible, if we've got particular needs. You can bet that the no narcissist too will find those out and give us and tell us exactly you
know why they understand us. But it won't be too long until there will be something that happens where the devaluation starts, because they're always wanting to study and know what can I do to you? How much will you take? You've got the initial love bombing where you're prepared to forgive, and of course you talk to survivors and they've got you know, their tolerant, their conscientious, they're forgiving, they're very capable, all of those things, which the ideal for someone who's
an arcissist. They don't choose accidentally.
So what you're saying is someone who falls under this umbrella of narcissm is sort.
Of seeking out.
A partner or people in their life that they can manipulate and they know what they're I mean, well, we might not be inside their heads. We don't know if they know what they're doing. But the playbook, it was really interesting what you said before for about the playbook seems to be the same across cultures, across geographical lines. So there are clear phases to this. The love bombing that sets up your connection to them, so you are.
To trust that safety this person, ye.
And then they'll start letting you down and you're saying, that's because they want to test you in a way. Is a narcissist after something from you? Like, I mean, I assume that this is obviously vrees it, Like are they trying to gam you?
Or is this just how they operate?
So a narcissist wants supply, we call it supply, and depending on who they are, they want different supplies. So it could be depending on what stage they're at, what age they're at, you know that they want different things. So you know, in the early stages they might want a partner who gives them a lot of validation and attention. But whatever stage they're at, a narcissists must have control.
They always have to control you. So one of the things that every survivor thinks, you know, when you're in a relationship and you desperately want to get out, one of the things that you think about is, oh, what if they're What if I've been with this person for ten, fifteen, twenty thirty years? What if I leave them and suddenly they repartner and they're really nice after all of this work they go on and they're really nice to the next person. They won't be because they don't change. They
will use exactly the same cycle, the abuse cycle. So they start off and they love bombing and the devaluation. So you're destabilized now and you're much easier to manipulate, so you're a bit oh, I guess that was okay. And then in between this there's that they come back
into to do a little bit of love bombing. So the relationship ship is all about reward and punishment, a lot of punishment before you not like you don't know that all of this is happening, of course, but you know there's a lot of punishment to keep you under their control, and there's a bit of reward in there also, so we keep looking for the reward because it will come because they do love me. They don't mean to do this, and so you know, there's there's the love bombing,
there's the devaluation, and then they'll discard you. I'll find, you know, a shinier toy, a better toy. There's something you know they might find. Look, I'd prefer to be, you know, watching soccer. I'd prefer to go cut I prefer to watch your porn. But I'm going to keep you around because your good supply. You know, you look, you look after the kids. You actually you're actually the
bread winner too. I get to do what I like, I get to behave however I like, and you just keep everything ticking along to the outside world, which is very important to the narcissist. Things are looking okay, look at them, they've got you know, the family, everything's chugging along. They're great. Hello, neighbors, Hello, everybody you know. But this behavior happens behind closed doors.
A narcissists very good at masking, like as in pretending that they care about your sick mom or pretending that they care or is it only if there's something in it for them.
There always has to be something in it for them. So you know, if they're nice to the neighbors, and most of them are, regardless of whether you need anything done, it's because the neighbors validate them and go, he's a or shit's great. Great people. Yeah, that's important that other people think they're great.
So one of the things that's interesting about this, and I know how you came to this work, is that you yourself were in a relationship with a narcissist for a long time. What your work is now is often helping people identify and get out of those relationships and rebuild themselves afterwards.
Am I correct in saying yes?
Yes?
Is there an early exit opportunity?
Like?
Are you I know what you were saying that it's difficult to sort of have a sort of broad stroke. These are the signs. But if you're dating a narcissist, if you haven't got so far in now that you're you're thinking about things like how what do we do about the children? What do we do about money? Is there you know, is there a kind of warning sign that you could that would help an early exit.
That's a really good question, but it's incredibly complex because you're actually in the abuse cycle already and you're experiencing intermittent reinforcement, which is the most powerful force for you know, it's the reason why someone is sitting in the casino and it's thirty five degrees outside and it's beautiful, and they're sitting in the dark casino and they've just blown five thousand dollars and you say to them, what are you doing? You know, you're losing money in here? It's beautiful.
I don't know what are you doing? And that they'll say, last year I won. And that's intermittent reinforcement. You know when when when we get hot, when it's high, God, it's good. So we've got to keep going. You know, when you're in that relationship, you just you know, I know that they love me. You know, we live in hope. Hope is very powerful, and often when you are in that, in that early stage, you will have friends, You will
have people saying, what are you doing? Can't you see that they're no good?
But you're now in an abuse cycle, and the narcissist is very clever, very good at manipulating. So one of the things that they will do is to start to slowly isolate you from your support networks.
And you know, if you've got a parent or a friend who says I don't like them, I can see something's not right. The narcissist will say, oh, you know, let's sue your friend. Well, she tried to you know, she likes me, she tried to crack onto me. I wouldn't trust her or your mother. Have you noticed her. She's always interfering. She doesn't care about you. So all the time being brainwashed and controlled and manipulated and who expects to talk into that.
After this shortbreak, I asked Margie more about the relationship between narcissism and abuse and how narcissists react when they realize that you're leaving them stay with us?
Are abuses?
All narcissists are narcissists, all abuses? Are these two things separate or interwoven?
Look, I think you can have someone who's who's toxic and you know, aggressive, but that's different to someone who's narcissistic, who's who's who's very very systematic, and the abuse, the psychological abuse that goes on. You know, the narcissist may may never ever raise their voice, they might never hit you, but day in day out, they will be undermining. They'll be punishing you, They'll be withdrawing, they'll be giving you the silent treatment. They'll be saying you know like that.
They'll find out what what was your childhood vulnerability and saying, oh, yes, well you were always a bit like that, won't you. So you lose your own agency, your capacity.
Absolutely, So it must be so hard to unpick yourself from this relationship. So, either in your own experience or in the experience of lots of people who you have helped through your work. Now, what might be the kind of I guess final story is the wrong word, but what might be the fun the thing that makes somebody go, I have to get out of here, Like what is that moment?
Like that's interesting because I've had a lot of people on Instagram message me and ask me exactly that you know, well, you've done it, so what was it? When will I know? And I think, you know, you get to a point where it's there's an acceptance that I'm I'm going under, I'm getting sick, and it's unbearable. This is unbearable, Like that's how bad it is.
I'm going under, and that there may be this time when they come back with their reinforcement and their you know, it's too many times through the cycle, and you don't think you can go through it anymore.
You're forgiven, you've lived in hope, you've waited, and you start to go, well, you know, there's no change because there's always the words the narcissists, And this is the hard part is separating because they future fake and they promise I will change, I'll do this, I'll do that, and once again you look through your lens and you go, well, they said that they're going to do that. That's reasonable,
But you're not dealing with a reasonable person. You're dealing with someone with these personality traits.
So how does a narcissist behave once they realize that maybe you are leaving? How do they behave when they are threatened in that way?
So there's a number of different ways they will behave. Narcissists saying in the workplace once they know you know, so watch out because they're coming for you because no one is allowed to know who they are.
So you mean when you say, when they know, you know, whether that's in the workplace or in a relationship, if you call them out on it, or if just that or rather if their magic stops working on you.
So yeah, so it's not so much you know in the workplace. I've certainly experienced, you know, narcissists in the workplace, and you know, when they take credit for your work the fortieth time and they lie and you know, they start doing illegal things and you just think, look, this is this is not okay. I'm actually going to push back on this. I'm not going to agree to this. This is not okay. So when you don't give them
what they want, they're going to tighten the screws. They're going to make you like they'll punish you like narcissists punish. So do what I want or I punish you. You know, if you're in the workplace, I'll demote you, I'll sack you, i will start to smear your name. I'll tell everybody things that aren't true because I'm entitled to do that.
This character portrait that we're painting is so depressing because it sounds like their master manipulators and they're likely to win. How do you win against the narcissists in that situation?
Look, I think, how do you win against the narcissists? Like in the workplace, going up against the narcissist, it's a long game, right, There's a very good chance, there's a ninety nine percent chance that you know, in the short term, you will lose because you are not dishonest, you're not a pathological lie. You won't sleep with anybody to cover it like no, but they will. They'll do whatever they need to to bring you down. So how
do you win? I know that it's easy to say this, but you get away from them, you leave, you leave. I mean I've watched people stay in the workplace and try and fight them, and their lives have crumbled because you just don't go up against a narcissist. Not in a short term. You're going to lose. Now you might hear five years down the track, Oh yeah, that was they finally found out about you know so and so,
and they've been asked to leave. But how do you win against someone who's a master manipulator?
And you can't play them because although they're susceptible to flattery and so on there, it sounds like they have no limits and you do as you were just saying, yeah, and.
In a situation you said, holy you can't play them. So you could stay and play them and you know, compliment them and play up to them. And how long can you do that because they're very needy and that constant validation. I mean, you wouldn't get your work done, you wouldn't do anything else. You would be feeding the narcissist. So that situation's not really sustainable either.
So back to a relationship situation. You've decided that you are getting out of this relationationship. You've been through the cycle so many times, as you say, you're now in a psychological place that is untenable. You may have to co parent with this person. You may have to have them and continue to have them in your life in some way. You may need to negotiate a financial settlement with them.
You may need to do all kinds of things. And whether from your experience or experience the people if you've worked with, what does that survival path look like?
I'd be lying if I said any of it was easy. You know, if they were difficult in the relationship, you can bet that they're going to be difficult awful in divorce. You know, they will tell you don't worry, you know, fifty fifty, or don't worry, I get lawyers involved, don't worry.
But remember they're pathological liars. And so often when people step into the divorce, they'll say, look, he has you know, she has told me that they'll be fair, and I just think it's it's not so they'res and sure enough I'll come back and you know, you'll often hear people say, oh, yeah, well what you said, they did that.
So because they're predictable, the behavior is predictable, as you said before.
Absolutely predictable. So you ask, what's what's the best way to survive this? If you become or if you work with someone who knows every step that the narcissists, that you know exactly what they're going to do, and you know exactly how you need to respond the narcissists. You know, if you pull the pin on the relationship and you've got children, especially young children, and you go enough, I'm done divorce and it wasn't the narcissist's idea, then they're
going to need to punish you. You know, I've had clients say that. You know, they've even said to them, I'll get back you for this forever. So they're going to want to punish you. Now, if they can't get to you, they will punish you through the kids. So the kids become pawns in their game of getting to you. So how do you manage this? So knowing what you're dealing with and knowing that every move that the narcissist
makes is about control. So when they contact you and they you know, they send the message, this is what I'm going to do. You don't respond, or you don't react, they want to see I've just got to it. I've just she's going to hate this one.
So it sounds very much like obviously this is complex, high stake stuff. So if you do believe that that's what you're doing with you absolutely need help to do that, right.
Yeah, Look, I get millions of messages how do I do this? And I think, well, I actually didn't do it on my own. I've got life you probably need. This is a very complex.
It's you know, it's abuse of absolutely.
You know, it's really hard to do this. You know, as I said, you have no agency, You've lost your self trust, you know, your self esteem. You're in a really bad place. So reach out and get someone to help you, someone who understands those narcissistic personality traits.
I have seen you say though, to be you know, have an optimistic tone here, that it is possible, of course, to extricate yourself from a relationship like this, that there is, there is and can be freedom and happiness on the other side. Is it really important for you that people hear that message, because you know, as you've said, in a lot of what we've discussed today, it's clear how damaging to your psyche and your self worth and your self esteem a relationship like This.
Can be.
Important for people to hear that they can help save themselves.
I guess when you do lose your agency and you don't, you don't know who you are anymore. And it doesn't matter how well educated you are or where you live or what your life looks like. You are living day to day a nightmare and your hollow. You don't know who you are. And from that place, you know, I wish I wish someone had come to me and said, do you know what, in five years down the track, you can have another life. You can write another chap that you can you can have all of those things,
things that are not yours at the moment. And I had someone the other day so to me, Oh, look, I follow lots of people on Instagram that talk about Nazism, but you're one of the few people that actually say you can. There is a happy ending you can have.
That you know at the beginning when I said to you, it sounds like narcissist is a word that's used a lot. Now, what I'm getting very much from you that's so interesting is that it is really important to identify this behavior because if you're in a relationship with a person like that, you're it's a serious thing and you need to be able to identify it so you know how to get
out of it. And it's not a case of you're overreacting, you're exaggerating, you're making because I'm sure that's probably what you're being told by the narcissist, right.
So absolutely, it's absolutely.
Your kind of work. And the fact that people are becoming more aware of this trait means it's validating for the people in these relationships to understand that what they're up against is significant.
It doesn't sink in, but I reckon I get probably woh no, less than ten messages every week from people around the world saying thank you you have saved my life, and I go, what, Well, it doesn't, you know, Like, it doesn't really sink in, But I just think that's just, oh my god, that's so healing for me, Like, wow, wow, that's so cool.
After this short break, I asked Margie the million dollar question, Can narcissists change? And are they born or made?
Stay with us? Can narcissists change?
You said at the beginning of our conversation that narcissists don't know their narcissists or do I mean I don't know if that's true.
But they know their behaviors absolutely, And how do we know that? Well, you know, what's your narcissists belittle you and ignore you for two weeks because you asked them or told them that they came home too late or drank too much, and they've ignored you for two weeks and they walk out the front door and say, hey, Jerry, how are your mate? You think they know they their behavior, this bad behavior, this abusive behavior, that's what you get.
But to everybody else, that's what they get. They know, you know, do they identify as being narcissists? Of course not, of course not. They don't self reflect. It's why they don't end up in therapy. Can they change, No, they can't change. Can they modify their behavior? Yes, they can learn, slow down, be mindful when you say that, that's really deeply hurtful. So so you know how many of them do? Not many?
Because if you're entirely self focused, why would you change? What kind of parents do narcissists make.
I like to say that narcissists they don't have the you know, they're not built for the heavy lifting of parenting. So you know, they don't have empathy. So you know, when a child is suffering, what like come on top, mend tough and up whatever, they're often not present. There's better things to be doing other than you know, like there's a computer game, or there's some pulling to watch on my phone, or there's maybe I'll be drinking. There's there's you know, like kids, kids don't really what are
they giving kids that they do? Often you know, there's there's a lot of literature about they'll have one child that is in their image, the golden child that that they reward and put a lot of time into and focus on and put a lot of pressure on you to so they can live vicariously through that child. But if you've got narcissistic parents that they can be cruel, that they don't nurture you. You know, they're not able to to give you what you need. You know, they'll
let you down. They're not going to communicate, as I said, they're not they're not empathic.
M hm.
You just you just oh, there's yeah, what am I going to get out of your kids? But watch them change when there's a divorce and the kids become the you know, the other parents really really cares deeply about you know, they've they've suffered all of this abuse and the last thing they want to do is to let the narcissistic parent get their hands on the kids, because the kids are not that they're not going to be overly safe.
Do you, in the work that you do with people, do you advise them to And again, I know this is high stakes, complicated stuff, but broadly, are you going to get much traction when you if you say to the people, the people who are helping you with your divorce or who are dealing with the custody settlement, my partner is a narcissist. He like, do you think there's an understanding enough there that that will help?
Like if you can.
No, In actual fact, I would advise them not to, especially in the legal world, you know, and if you're female and you come in that there's a certain danger in you know, because they're asked to say, oh, look, she's probably told you I'm a narcissist. You know, she's a lunatic. Anyway, No, she's not qualified, but that's dangerous. But what you can do, and you always must keep meticulous documentation because they're like, I didn't say that, I didn't do that. Yes she did, I've got the text.
Yes she did, I've got the records, I've got the bank statement. So you have to and it's exhausting. You have to keep meticulous records. And when you aren't describing their behavior, you know, in the legal world, you describe the behavior, you don't then say, you know this is narcissistic.
No, a narcissist born or made.
Yeah, that's probably the biggest question that everybody wants to know. And there's the latest theory is that it's you know,
roughly sort of eighty twenty. Eighty percent is nurture and twenty percent is the personality that you're born with, and a lot of it is parenting, whether you're you know, over the grandiose narcissist who is witnesses and watches parents be entitled and treat people without empathy, and the expectation on that child is that they will perform for the parent and do an excel and you know, an extension
of the parent. But the vulnerable or covert narcissist that the parenting style lacks nurturing and lacks those types of things, you know, and if empathy is taught, then they're not taught and not nurtured. They're not taught to the empathy.
So if a parent is thinking I don't want to raise a narcissist, I mean to the long list of things.
That parents worry about.
Like, if you're thinking I don't want to raise a narcissist, it's probable that you're not going to if you're thinking mindfully about it and you're showing empathy and care, and.
Yeah, empathy is probably the number one trait that you would want to be instilling in your children. And I know that for parents who are parallel because you don't really co parent with a narcissist because they're antagonistic and it's high conflict. So you know you've got a parallel parent. You know, they often say, you know, how can I try and help my child? I know what they're going to every second weekend. And I said, look, you have
everything that a narcissist doesn't have. You've got patience, you've got time, you communicate, you're empathic, you won't let them down. You know, you are consistent. You've already got so many things to give your child. Sooner or later, kids are going to see being let down again. Oh, like the narcissist does stuff up.
I said at the beginning of this that you're one of your descriptions of narcists sounded like a lot of alpha males.
I know.
Is narcissism more prevalent in men than women?
It is?
How much like how there are female narcissists.
Absolutely, I've worked with clients who have got, you know, the female narcissists that they're trying to desperately, you know, the kids are being destroyed. And I've seen you know, narcissists, female narcissists. You know, in the workplace. Female narcissists in the workplace often use their sexuality and charm.
They use their chart in a different way.
You said at the beginning, the three c's charm, charisma, confidence. The female narcissists might use those in slightly different ways.
Yes, I see, you just might.
What's the best way to spot a narcissist at work, Margie.
Wow ah gee, it's really easy when you know you know what you're looking at. But they because I've just had another situation where another narcissist has stepped into another workplace and done exactly what they did in the prior workplace, and absolutely blown it apart. You know, they're pathological liars. They lie, Oh my god, do they lie. They big note themselves, they steer your ideas. They're bullies.
They sound like the worst bosses.
Well, the mental health it's a very serious, very serious concern. People get very sick. And if you can't leave, like you can't leave the workplace, it's you know, it's unimaginable, it's unbearable. They smear your name that narcissists love to get, whether it's your partner, whether it's in the workplace, you know, whether they get in first. Even most narcissistic parents, whether you realize it or not, the narcissist is smearing your name to the kids from a young age. Oh look
at silly old mummy. She's never been any good at that. Oh isn't she crazy or not that like? And you don't even realize it's so subtle.
That's so interesting, Margie, if you could talk to the version of yourself that was in that relationship for such a long time, knowing all that you know now you know, you've got so many people following you who engage with your education and your work because you're clearly, very clear eyed about this, Now, what would you tell her? And that's it situation.
Look something that's that's impossible. It's impossible given the manipulation and the you know, the trauma bond that you're in. But every single person that I speak to knows that the relationship is it's not right. You know that. But because you're in a trauma bond, you can't leave.
So what's a trauma bond?
I talked about the abuse cycle? So when the abuse cycle, you know, you're groomed, so you know, first of all, you love bond, and then you you know, how much can you take. I'm going to destabilize you little by little by little, so you know you're really not sure what's right and what which side up, which side down? And then I'm going to discard you, and you're going to be desperately wanting the old me back, and then I'm going to say here, I am gone again. And
so you are. You've got this bond to the person that is hurting you so badly, but you've been over such a slow and long period of time you don't realize that the one thing you desperately want so much is that good back. And so you've just had like the gambler, you've just lost five thousand dollars? Do you realize that? But last year I one and that's exactly how it feels. But don't you see they did this, they did this, they did this. Yea, but he said
I'm his soul mate. Yeah right, I'm special. I'm special. But hang on what the narcissist says and what the narcissist does. So if you're a young woman and you're going, gee, maybe that's me, have a look at what they say and what they do want match right?
And if in a world beyond this narcissistic relationship where you find yourself in a healthy one, what's the most surprising thing to someone who's been groomed to respond to a narcissists version of true love?
Look, I think you realize, Oh, I've actually never experienced love. I've been controlled, I've been trauma bonded. I have been living like a nervous wreck. But it's not love because love is easy. There's no it's so is this easy? That's probably what I'm thinking. You just say, you just do that. You wouldn't because one of the most distressing parts of dealing with someone narcissistic is every tiny thing.
Remember to that. Control can be something as simple as like, oh, you know, Cynthia and George would like us to come over for drinks. It's never yeah, it'd be great, Or could you just grab me some milk on your way home?
No problem, that's not how it is. A narcissist with a.
Nice It comes with the price, right, I have to have this kind of like you're conditioned. You will go through a process and I will decide at the end of that process whether you get what you want, and you are like a prisoners Margie.
This has been so helpful, and so I know there are going to be so many people listening to this who are like, yes, I know a narcissist.
I live with a narcissist. I work with a narcissist.
Probably not that many people going, oh, I'm a narcissist.
Give them what we've discussed today.
Yeah, zero.
But that's just been really helpful. Thank you so much, my pleasure.
So I've been thinking about that conversation a lot since I spoke to Margie, because I think that until I really talked to her, I didn't know exactly what a narcissist was, even though I've heard about them a lot, definitely been involved with a few myself, and I've even written a book with one as the main character. But now I really know what they are. And I hope that if you see yourself in anything in this conversation, it gave.
You some peace and some ideas that might help.
And if you're wondering what the difference is between a narcissist and say, a psychopath or a sociopath or one of those other.
Wonderful things, we have some great episodes for you.
One is with a woman named Patrick Gagnier who is herself a sociopath and she talks very openly and honestly about what that means for her as a wife and a mom and as a human being in the world.
And David Gillespie wrote.
The book on Identifying and Dealing with Psychopaths at Home and Work, and Mia interviewed him both. The links to those shows are in the show notes right here. The host and creator of No Filter is Mia Friedman. The executive producer is Naima Brown. Audio and sound design has been by Jacob Brown and I have been your guest host, Holly Wainwright.
Thank you for listening,