Dee Salmin Went ‘Boy Sober’ For Three Years. This Is What She Learnt

You know, I was putting up with behaviors that some people might be like, I would never put up with that, Like what like you know, I talk about how a lot of the times, like just even in sex or just like the relationships that I was like chasing, the guys would just not treat me very nicely and like yeah, you know, not really respectful and kind of you know, lead me on and ghost me, and then I would just come crawling back, or I'd like whatever they wanted

This week on No Filter, you might think you already know my guest. She's the voice behind the hook Up on Triple J, where she's spent years talking about love, sex and modern relationships. She's built a reputation for being honest, direct and very clear about one thing women should not be settling. But there's also another version of her that exists out in the world, one shaped by headlines common and a level of scrutiny that comes with dating. One

D Salmon, welcome to No Filter. Thank you. I am so honored to be here.

Well, I'm thrilled to have you, but I'm also a little bit apprehensive because I have.

Been reading your book. Yes, well I've read it.

Yeah, It's not love Actually Great Name, Great Name, which is described as.

Part memoir, part manifesto.

Fascinating read and very much in your space of relationships and the psychology of relationships, but also you really open yourself up in it about your own relationship and how you came to that. But then I read a bit that made me go, oh, does she know she's coming on no filter? Because I read these right. Honestly, I'd let you put me in the chokey with Matilda before you catch me having a vulnerable conversation.

Do you know what I was saying? Time in this morning, I was like, how are you feeling?

Because I've done a few interviews, I was like, I'm so nervous for this one because i just think you are such a great interviewer and I think it is such a skill set that you have to be able to really open people up and get deep.

And I'm excited for that.

But at the same time, I'm nervous because I'm like, like I said, I.

Really struggled with.

It.

Even though I read every single Brene Brown book on vulnerability, I still find having honest, difficult conversations really hard to do.

They make my skin crawl. Really why why?

I think it's just what I've learned. I think it's just like my nervous system goes into fight or flight and I freeze. Quite I find them quite like. It's not even logic. It's like it's something deeper, primal thing. It's a primal thing I can't survive.

I don't know.

I think it's like my heart races, I freeze, I find I like almost got to cry. Like sometimes if I know that I have to have a difficult conversation with, whether it's a friend or a partner, like can automatically just start crying because.

I don't know what it is.

I think it's just what I've maybe learned about difficult conversations, or like the vulnerability of them, or maybe not having them received well.

I don't know. You know that, you know?

They say, for instance, with allergies, that often people are attracted to what they're allergic to, so that if you're you know, you shouldn't have sugar, you'll have a huge sweet tooth or whatever. You're allergic to cats if you just want yes, like my husband who's allergic to cats and loves cats right but can't have Yeah. Yeah, you have immersed yourself in a space where vulnerability and openness and a prepare irridness to go into those dart and secret corners is essential.

I know, because I'm so I've always been so drawn to psychology. I've always been so drawn to relationships and love and the way that people find each other and the way that it is so nuanced and complicated, and I find that so incredibly interesting. But I've always been on the other side of that, right, Like I am a trained journalist.

I love asking people about it.

I love having those vulnerable conversations with other people. But this is the first time that I've actually really written quite vulnerably, and I've I've talked about stuff that I've never spoken about before. And usually on the hook up it's yeah, I'm on the other side and I'm chatting to people about their stories, and I love it.

I love it.

I'm like you, I love having, you know, really deep and vulnerable conversations.

But when yeah, you know what I mean, Well, when you decided to do the book, what was the genesis of that?

Then I feel.

Like I'm coming to a place where I've been at the hook Cup now for nearly seven years. I've been at the ABC for nearly ten. I just feel like I'm coming to a bit of a graduation moment, Like i feel like I've gone through a lot in my twenties.

I've really learned a lot.

I've interviewed so many people, I've interviewed so many experts, and last year, the idea kind of came to me. It's something that I always knew I wanted to do, but maybe didn't have the confidence to be like, oh, who are you to, you know, write a bit of a dating guide and who are you to you know, try and encourage women with their sex and relationships. But I think last year I really felt like I had learned enough. I felt like I had It wasn't as

Because you have immersed yourself, I mean if you do. You know, they say, if you do the thing that you love for five minutes a day, in five years, you'll be actually, I think it's an hour.

I've mentally just gone off five. That's my duo lingo.

That within five years you'll be at the top of your field. Yeah, because you have immersed yourself in that world.

You know a lot.

I think when you yeah, when you realize like I've spent nearly seven years, every single day, every single week, talking to young people from all over Australia and the world as well, and you know, psychologists and sex educators, and we've covered every single topic under the song that

I have learned enough to be able to share that with the world.

But to.

Write about dating and relationship relationships, you know, in the third person, is very different than what you've done in the book, which is you brought yourself to it and some of it. I was like, just knowing you through the hook Up and through the media, through your relationship with Darcy Moore, who's a footballer, and not just any footballer. I hasten to add I'm going to controlled for that, but I was like, oh my god, she's writing about her UTIs like, that's full of well.

I wanted to walk the walk.

I think I've been so privileged to hear from so many people about their darkest, most deepest secrets and the most vulnerable moments, and I think I feel secure enough in myself to know that being able to share those those vulnerable parts of my life and those things that maybe there are a bit of shame around or there are, you know, things that are quite personal that hopefully, knowing what I've learned from so many people, they might learn

Well, it's also one thing with before instance a UTI, when you're single and you're dating and you can just pull yourself out of the situation for a while. I drink your crand fridges and pray, right. But it's another when you're in a relationship and you're navigating the sexual aspect and intimacy aspect of things, then you have to draw someone else into the conversation and into your world that you said is often filled with sort of shame

I yeah, I had. I was really really lucky that Darcy was so supportive and he was with me every step of the way of writing this book. He's an incredible writer and editor himself, so he was like, you know, helping me through the editing process, and he read it about ten times and there were parts that we cut out, and there were parts that he was really generous with letting me share. And that goes to my parents as well well your.

Parents in the world, because you talk about and I mean everyone's life is very formatively shaped by what they've seen modeled in their family or their guardianship, whatever. How did you had to pick apart which I gathered already done in therapy. Yeah, yeah, analyzed the machinations and the way that your family, your parents related to each other.

How did the conversation.

With them go when you said I'm going to talk about what I learned, not all of it positive.

Well, like even saying I'm really bad at having vulnerable.

So that was the thing that I was the most nervous about. And I think because they're still in wa. Yeah, yeah, still in wa.

And I think it was because I knew, you know, when you love people so much, the last thing you want.

To do is hurt them.

And I knew that there was potential that it would with what I shared about my parents and my upbringing and their relationship and the effect it had on me, And so I left it to the very last minute.

I had my editors being like, oh, you mean it was written?

It was all written. The process of writing was a very like closed off just me, Like it was like me, Darcy would read it.

I had one other friend that read it. That was it. No one knew I was writing, No one knew I wrote the book.

It was like a very I just wanted to write with no expectation of feelings that.

I would hurt.

And you know, because I am quite a people pleaser and I do care so much about people's feelings, and so I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't impacted or that wasn't influencing the things that.

I wanted to really write about. And so I just wanted to write it all out and then I would.

Deal with the conversations of the people that I've spoken about and the repercussions of that.

And so as I.

Had finished my draft and manuscripts made it as were like, okay, you know you need to you need to get every client across the stories that you're sharing and make.

Sure to contextualize it. It was not.

The story that you tell about your family was not shocking, but it was intimate, and it was about that your father would often withhold affection if someone had done something that merited his disapproval.

To your mom, and your mum was like the peacekeeper.

Your mom was the homemaker, yeah, your dad was the provider.

Yes. So it was very traad in that sense exactly.

And the story I share is to give context for the reader around, because a lot of the book is about dating and why we might date people that aren't great for us, and why do we end up in these dynamics. And you might be listening and you're like, oh, I constantly, you know, chase guys or whoever you're dating that you know don't seem to want to commit or kind of hold me at arm's length through a bit

And so to kind of provide a bit of context around like why I was stuck in this cycle and why you know, I was putting.

Up with behaviors that some people might be like I would never put up with that, Like what Like you know, I talk about how a lot of the times, like just even in sex or just like the relationships that I was like chasing, the guys would just not treat me very nicely and like, you know, not really respectful and kind of you know, lead me on and ghost me. And then I would just come crawling back, or I'd like whatever they wanted to do, I would just you know,

Repeating like you were just like waiting there like sure, this is great, I love this, like you know, never never really speaking up for myself and never really being like I don't what are you doing, Like I don't want to do this.

It was always just trying to make sure that like I was getting any sort of attention or affection from them, even if it was you know, disrespect or they weren't treating me very well. And so to give a bit of context, I guess to the reader around why that was, I had to talk about the fact that we learned

Speaking of your dad when you told him, how he was contextualized in the book in terms of how it affected you, How was he about that.

He was really supportive my mom, Both my mum and him were really supportive. They like, we'd gone to family therapy nout of this was new. I think it definitely would have hit them a bit like it would have.

You know, it's not something that you want to hear.

And I think that they have always kind of felt that way of you know, this was never ever. I don't think it's any parent's intention to ever cause you know, upset to their child.

And so I.

Think they were not hurt that I had written it, but hurt about that that happened. But we've done so much healing as a family, and I just, yeah, I will be forever so grateful that they've been so generous with allowing me to share some pretty vulnerable things.

Did your dad recognize the truth of himself?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, And we've had conversations about that and in therapy and you know, over the years, and I love my parents, and I talk about intergenerational trauma, and I know, having gone to therapy, like how much of some of the things that he.

Experienced and hear his child hood Russia.

Russia really impacted the way that he showed up in relationships and you know, my parents were both so they were in their like mom was twenty seven when they had when she was pregnant with me, and they.

Like culturally like barely really knew each other. They didn't speak the same language. And they they got engaged really quickly. Yeah, they'd spent ten days together, all they didn't speak the same language.

They like moved to Australia, foreign country for my dad, and they mom accidentally felt pregnant with me, so they both had to give up their careers in ballet.

And you know, your mom's Australian, so culturally a massive, massive.

Challenge for her as well.

Yeah, and so they had three under four and yeah, we you know, didn't have any money and they lived off we lived off Center Link, and so it was we had a really kind of difficult child in this sense that like it was a very loving childhood, but difficult in the sense it was so much happening and there was so much pressure and there's so much stress.

And I, yeah, understand so much.

Now as an adult and having had done this work, like they were definitely PERIODSI. I was angry at my parents, but having done all this work and gone to therapy as a family.

And realizing and trying to reinvent themselves.

Exactly exactly, and they were doing their best, and so much of it is loon't behavior from their families. And you know, my dad was six when he was taken away from his family and put it to a ballet school.

Wow, was it hard for your mum because she was the conduit really who also struggled with his periods of exclusion.

Yeah, I think so.

But this, yeah, like I said, this is conversations that we've had for a while now. And my parents are such incredible role models, like they see psychologists, you know, like it's it's seeing them work so hard to heal themselves and to change patterns and show up in a different capacity For me, and like, you know, there's been so much healing that we've done, and that in itself, seeing them, even in their sixties be able to go like, we've still got work to do and we're still you know, working.

Really hard to show up. And I think that to me has been.

Really inspiring, knowing that like, at no matter age, we've always we've always got work to do on ourselves and our relationships in the way.

After this shortbreak, d Salman reveals the startling truth she learned about herself in therapy. So when you had started unpicking that in therapy, did you share that with your parents?

Then I went to therapy in covit It was this opportunity that I had where I was kind of go, go go and never really worked on myself and never really thought that deeply about my patterns. And then in COVID, like so many people, I had all this time to myself, a lot of thinking time. I was in lockdown by myself in an apartment and I.

Just had you just moved from WS. I just moved time.

I drove across a Nullabo with my mum and at the end of twenty nineteen, and then we went into lockdown in twenty twenty and I hadn't even found a rental yet, so I yeah, stayed at my friend's apartment and then he moved to Sydney because he was like, fuck this, I'm not dealing with this. And so I lived in that apartment by myself for most of that year and just yeah, had so much time to think and so much time to read, and so much time to journal and learn about myself.

And I did your wheel start to come off a bit at that time.

It was more that I finally just had the space right like I had, like I talked about in the book, like I had spent my whole life and to that point, like from my teen years just like always messing a guy, like always chasing affection, whether it was like I was seeing someone or dating someone, or had to crush on someone, or it was like constantly trying to get some sort of attention from men. And this was the first time where I didn't. I wasn't on the apps, I wasn't

Reflect, which led to boy sober.

Led to yeah, what I call boy sober, which wasn't the term because before that you were boy drunk exactly exactly.

Yes is a phenomenon, not peculiar to you. Yes, you know, you say, And it's just a truism that a lot of particularly when you're younger, I think a lot of conversations with your friends and with other women, and it's about boys, who you're dating, who you like, analyzing this hyper analytical, A lot of it's bullshit, interpreting what the slightest thing means.

You know, he ate just with a fork and not with.

A knife, but the knife is the penis.

That was my life. That was my life.

It was like, you know, he messaged me saying this, like what do you think it means? And like every single thing was over analyzed with my friends and they would do the same and it was just constant and I during that time, during COVID, I went to therapy and I realized, like why I was chasing that and.

What therapy did you start with? And how did you know where to start. I had a.

Friend that I think I was talking to and she was like, I've been seeing the psychologist and she changed my life.

So I went to a psychologist.

And was that Was there any apprehension associated with that given how much we love we know you love to divulge. Yeah, in most workings.

Well I think there was, but I think that when when you have someone that you love and you trust, I think was the first time that I had had

This was incredible for me.

It really gave me the motivation to do it, whereas before I probably would have not.

And also, because you'd had that period of solitude, you'd kind of prepared the ground yourself. Yeah, yeah, exactly harvest that was to come.

Yeah, and starting to read a bit more about like attachment theory. And because this was at the beginning of my hookup journey as well, so I was like, you know, up until that point, had been working at the ABC and w WA for nearly three years, working in news and you know, local regional issues in Bumbrey, and so I hadn't fully started to you know, delve into the psychology of dating and sex and relationships. And so this was like coinciding with me starting at the hookup and

There's something actually here with me that I need to tackle and address as well.

And what what was the first significant thing that came up for you in therapy?

And I don't mean just the general whatever. I mean that you know, the way.

The truth has a bar, but that will strike at a place that is that's never been touched before.

I think it was.

Tying my patterns and dating and the kind of guys that I would go for the hot and cold to my dad, and I had never done that before, and it seems so obvious, right, but to me it was like this was my early twenties. It was like the biggest aha moment ever. And I just cried and cried and cried because I think it just it was so profound. It was like, of course, like that makes so much sense.

I rapid, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, and.

So going, but trying to find memories of the earliest moments of that and going back to my childhood and realizing like that scared young vulnerable girl who just wanted to be loved and trying to you know, as my age now come back and meet with her and sit with her and talk to her. And it was, Yeah,

Was so hot and cold. He was so hot and cold, and the.

Issue was that we lived three hours apart and he didn't really use his phone, and so when we were together, when we were together, it was like we're in love. He's so affectionate, where like he you know, was the love of my life. And then when we were apart, which might be for two weeks at a time, he would just never call me, he would never text me, and he would just you know, disappear off the planet Earth.

Was so triggering.

And for someone else that mightn't have been triggering, right, like that might have just been like, oh yeah, like he's just surfying whatever. But for me, and it's still to this day, it's something I've really worked on, but that that is so triggering to me when someone goes.

And also then when they come back, come back, Yeah, when they come back to you and you get that dopamine heat, Yeah.

Then you are.

And I think you you make that that, you make that link in your book that it's like the Pokey's Yeah, yeah, you get that heat. So then that keeps you coming back again.

And there's so much too that wiring of your brain. Right, not only for some people is it learnt from their childhood like me, but for others it's stuff that they've just seen in TV and pop culture, which I talk about. It's like it's so normalized for this bad boy trope and for this idea that like love is meant to be hard and like, you know, I can change human.

You might be the one that which I just.

Really ate up right, Like I loved Chug Bass and Gossip Girl, like I loved this idea of like being the chosen one and being the girl that or.

We all love that.

Yeah, yeah, you know that's change him, you know, And so that also plays into it and once you start to go through those highs and lowers with someone, it is so hard to get out, which is why I have so much empathy for people who have been in abusive relationships, because you really do cling on to those really high highs, and you almost excuse the behavior sometimes because you just think, like, no, but you know.

So you're the boy.

Sober period, which I gather lasted about three years.

Yeah, it was like over a period of nearly three years.

And that was no apps, yeah, no, no flirting.

No, yeah, I didn't.

I had sex with my ostereo in the middle of that, of which I don't count, right, But how.

Did that happen? By the way, how do you have sex with your OSTEO?

Well, I was on the table, it wasn't on the table.

I was seeing him as a client and obviously my voiceover period, and it just like over a couple of months, turned to flirting, turned to you know, she should come over for a dream, which I did, but that was a one off thing and.

I regretted it and anyway.

Went back to being voice sob and so I spent all together, like nearly three years not having sex.

And then how did you come out of it.

You said there was a moment where you said to your bestie Brendon, I think you went, I'm ready.

Yeah.

I just felt like I felt like I had done so much work on myself.

I felt like I'd been in therapy for three years.

I'd really really spent so much time getting to a place where I felt so secure and confident and loved myself, and I felt ready, And I genuinely could have you know,

Take her out on the town.

And to see like what what the kind of like relationships or dating experiences I would then have And it was so interesting because like the I went back on dating apps and the guys that I like and on the odd date with I would straight away just like I remember one of the first guys I went on a date with. He we went and had dinner, and then that weekend he was like, I would love to see you again, and I was like I was, I was intrigued, I was interested, and he was like, I'd

Whenever you're ready.

I would have been ready, like ready, to go, and I was just like, not not for me, Like I really admire people who stick to their word, and I really admire and I think what I was looking for is someone who wanted something a bit more like I wasn't looking. I've a relationship with someone who took me a bit more seriously and respected me enough to be like I made a plan with her, Yeah, I'm not going to go out drinking all night.

If I said I'd get coffee with her, I want to.

Get because that also is death by the house and cuts exactly.

And I said, if this to myself, I was like, if this is him day one, I don't want to.

Know what's two years done, because every one of those behaviors is hurting you, even if you don't realize it.

Well, you're teaching yourself what you deserve, right, Like if I had worked so hard on myself to that point where I wanted to raise the bar for the behavior that I was accepting and the kind of people I was potentially going to get intimate with, I was like, that's not the behavior that I want to accept, and I had, Yeah, it's not about being like.

Fuck you, like you know, it's just saying Hey, lovely to meet you. I don't think this is going to work.

When you came out into the world and you had that you were fresh, was there a difference in the way that you got treated?

Oh, my gosh, Like I kind of explained to you, there was.

It was like a period of like three four months where I was meeting guys in real life and they were asking for my number. They were and they were really incredible, beautiful men, and they were taking me out on dates and they were genuinely treating me how I

How did you meet?

So we met through Do you know Alex Dyson the photographer Alex Eison, He's a presentable Jake oh yeah, Alex.

Yeah, I know Alex.

So Darcy you know, came came across me through Alex and messaged me. He got my number and then messaged me and he like I didn't know who he was, and he.

Was how did he come across you through Alex? Okay, so I real? Or no?

No?

No?

He was like, I was over.

I was hanging out with Alex and his woman who asked Alex about me and then so basically it was just like I think stalked my instagram, was intrigued, asked, and so he messaged and yeah, basically was like introduced himself, said hi, and then he was like, I'd love to

If you happen to be free on the day, Like yeah, sure, let's do it.

And then he was like yeah, absolutely looking in and I thought, like, you know, I get some messages sometimes from guys being like hey whatever.

I just thought i'll ever hear from him again, like you know. And then he.

Messaged me on New Year's saying Happy New Years and like checked in on me. And then he messaged a week before the date and wanted to like confirm and yeah, we went on the date and just spent like four hours like didn't even have one.

So this is when you google Darcy and realized he was an AFL player and not just a friend of a friend. Honest reaction, very hesitated variety.

Yeah, I was I was someone who had dated musicians, I had dated artists and surfers.

Yeah, that was my world.

I was very into like creatives and men who were a bit more thoughtful and artistic. And so I did see AFL player and kind of just go, Okay, that's not really my type. But then having looked into you know, him a bit more and realizing like that we had a lot more in common.

And his master's in you know, political.

Relations and politics, and like the fact that he was so well traveled and so interested in other cultures.

What was your date? What was it? So organized?

He organized it right, and it was at the Moon in Collingwood, right, and he yeah, basically I think we made it like six and then we just like sat down and we just talked and NonStop and it was like, yeah, time, I didn't even really we didn't even realize. It got to like ten pm, and we just got along so well and just had so much in common and he was he's so well read, and I love reading.

And so we spoke so much about like books.

And your crossover with books at that point. So or did you not really have a crossover then or in what you were both reading?

Oh?

I think we were both reading. Yeah, there was. I was so surprised.

There were so many books that he had read that you know, sometimes we put men in boxes and.

We thought, oh, they wouldn't have read that book.

But he because Pride and Prejudice is one of my favorite books by Jane Austin.

So we're talking about that. He's read that.

And he did literature in high school as well, and I studied leading h school and then I went on to do it at UNI as well, and so yeah, we just shared so many books that we both read and loved.

And you could tell he was really intelligent and thoughtful.

And then we both loved music so much like he loves music, and you know, would realize that there were so many gigs that we'd been.

At that we had cross.

Yeah, King Sting Ray is one of my favorite bands, and we'd both just gone to that gig that they dined and didn't even know that we were both there, And yeah, it was just it was really very.

Hard for both of you to miss each other in the crowd. By the way, because but also a girlfriend of mine, when I told her I was speaking to you, she said, one of the things she's most intrigued about is that you two look like you could be brother and sister.

Funny you know.

That your your physiology is so mirroring of each other.

Yeah, we probably didn't help each other when we both had bleached hair for the first that's right, Yeah, that we both had bleach share at the time. But yeah, so there were so many moments like that, like we.

Love musicals and we love theater, and my parents and ballet dancers, and you know, he grew up going to the ballet his family.

He's like mum, and and he's got a lot of sisters for three sisters.

Yeah, yeah, and so we just we really got along. And then I went to Tazzi and then he messaged the next day saying I loved that it, We'd love to see you again, and just went from there.

But then you found yourself in a world. And it's interesting because when you're talking about the things that drew you to him, you didn't even mention football. Well, it doesn't and I don't imagine that you were particularly into football, no, But what I.

Mean is his world is is is like that's the apex of male culture, particularly in Melbourne, that team as well.

Like he's a very unlikely person to be who is.

In that world. But for then you to come into that world. It has been noted that you are a very unusual wag.

Right.

It's the wives and girlfriends right who come and I don't want to paint them with a broad brush, but generally there's a template with individual variations. You are not in that template, and it's been noted.

And so you draw the eye and the eye.

Yeah, and in the same way that he does too, right, because he doesn't particularly fit the expectation and the stereotype of the football.

I think there's that almost.

Added weight between both of us together, which then makes sense of us being a couple.

Right.

But for me, I don't consider myself a part of that world.

It's my partner's job in the way that I have a job.

I have immense love for the way that he is able to captain and be the president of the Players Association, and he's just so incredibly intelligent and has so much integrity, and I really respect and I do. I have felt so welcome in that world by Collingwood, and I, you know,

But it's I can't make that my world.

I have my own and I'm like extremely busy, like

Life, but that's kind of what works for me.

Yes, And then you got pegged with the mornic asidies. You were the ultra woke it's an ultra woke or the ultra woke wag. Yeah, the ultra woke AFL girlfriend or the ultra woke wag.

Now, were you expec that?

No, because I work for Trible, you know what I mean, Like, just I don't.

That's wild to me. That's normal. That's normal.

And like you know, I'm I'm I'm not and like I in as in like I am a journalist, I'm a presenter, I work on the whole cup I talk about last extending relationships.

I'm a Trible representer.

Like the moment I stepped, I don't know what I had said or done. I don't think I had. I'm not someone who really does post a lot online. I don't really like being on socials too much. And so yeah, I don't know what it was. But how branded?

How was that branding? But I don't know. I just was like sure, I try not to listen to it. It's it was.

It was a bit of a shock at the start because I think I wasn't expecting that world.

To be so the media wise, to be so full on.

It's just not something that I've ever yeah, got really accustomed to, but was ever really expecting because I just I grew up in Perth like footy culture. Just like I said, my parents are Baladancer's like this is not This is not my world, and the obsession with footy here as well is not my world. I'd, you know, only been living there at the time, like four years maybe, so Yeah, it just wasn't It was really unexpected. But I just like I just tried to ignore it. The

Think they say that, Yeah, why is it an insult?

Why I think it's an insult.

I just think we're in a world right now where it is so polarizing, and I think it gets clicks, right. I think that on socials at the moment, it's just the way the algorithms work where the content we're constantly consuming is polarizing, and so it works, right. They've got to make money, they've got to make clicks, and it's what works because people are so divided at the moment and.

Many peoples I entities are wrapped up in.

Mi'm either this or I'm not yes, And like I was saying before, there's no nuance, there's no critical thinking, there's no deep taking a breath and thinking a bit deeper about things.

And so I think it's just what works at the moment.

And stay with us because after the break, d shares what happened when she and Darcy went public with their relationship. Do you think you had underestimated how how your difference would draw the eye.

I don't think I even thought about it. I didn't think about it at all. No, I didn't think about it. And then how.

When you you know, sometimes when you're stuck in the story that's of other people's devising, you can't reset the narrative. And so then you did an interview that about moving in together, or someone asked you about moving in together, and you, I don't know what you said, something about heteronormity falls something, yeah, okay, okay, and then we're off yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.

But that's just the landscape we live in right now, right Like I think that people are so quick to take things out of context. Like even this morning, I woke up early and the first thing I did was look at my phone, and I was getting all these message abusive messages on my posts on Instagram and in my messages from this girl who was claiming that I was lesbian phobic or something on an episode that I didn't even do.

She was just like, you know, so I think that, like, we live.

In a in a world now, especially on socials, where there's no critical thinking, there's no deep thought, there's no doing a bit of research, there's no actually like understanding when something is taken from an interview, right, what the actual context of that conversation was. And so that's just what happened with that moment. But it's it is, it's constant online. I mean, you guys would be so aware of that, and it happens every day and there's so much like changing of.

Year, you know, people are very tribal as well. Oh my god.

And also quotes just like a tile online from an interview and people are.

Like, how dare you like bluff? You know what I mean?

And it's like, even with this book coming out, such a huge part of the book is about being single, and some quotes went up and people going, yeah, but you're in a relationship. It's like, this is a quote and a quote from an interview that was a long interview that came from a long book that has a lot of context. If you could spend two seconds just thinking that before you jump, do you know what I mean?

Yes? And it's so wild to me, but everyone does it and it's constant.

But you know, it's You're very interesting to people because of that singleness as well. So you were talking about your love of rom coms and women generally we have a love of rom coms that may lead us up the garden park, but we love it.

And you, in a sense are not unlike that.

In the story arc of a rom com where you know that even the seminole car accident and the whatever, and then the moving into state and then the going into lockdown and the period of self reflection, that withdrawal from the world of men coming out and finding love with a tall, beautiful guy. So there is going to be such a degree of interest in you, not just for d Salmon, that is you, but as you as part of this unit, this romantic unit.

Yeah, and that's why the whole last chapter of the book, which is about love, is talking about the importance of love that isn't just romantic, and I talk about the fact that we have been taught through the rom comms, through the world that we live in, that romantic love is at the top of that hierarchy ride and that stems from the romantic error. It's romanticism that centuries ago has actually shaped the way that we love today that and reproductively as well. Like we know that romantic love

But I can't believe it's actually just reproductive love.

But when you feel it, yeah, but that's not We can still feel that for friends, right.

And I spoke to an evolutionary biologist, doctor Anna Mashen recent recently, and she talked about the fact that that love that you feel for your dog.

For God, for your friends is just as.

Powerful and work in the same centers of her brain as romantic love. Just been in the West really conditioned to put romantic love at the top and this be all and end all.

And that's the point that I really wanted to come across.

At the end, it's like, yes, Okay, I have this incredible partner, we absolutely love each other. That doesn't mean that that might not one day end And that doesn't mean that my life will be any.

Less end with the love that I have, Yes.

With my best friend Brendan, with my family, with my other best friend Elie. Like they are all just as meaningful and just as powerful. But we have been conditioned to just put our partners as like our best friend, i'll love, our soulmate, our everything.

And I also think that's a dangerous thing to do.

Do you think that you're thinking like that, which once upon a time you didn't think like yeah, has meant that you're now the elusive one in a relationship as in like him, yeah for him, or generally, you know if you were to, you know, go out with someone else in a romantic context, that once upon a time you were looking for that affirmation from someone who would

In yeah, But I don't know if I show up in relationships like that.

I think that in relationships, you know, I am, we're both really secure and now it's like we talk about our future and it's like it's not like I'm I'm

And then you've got nothing to fall back on, and your.

Friends have moved on you and you don't know who you liked them sometimes neglected not only your other relationships but yourself, right, like you don't remember like what brought you joy and what brought you passion without having had that with another person. And so for me, it's just something that I'm conscious of doing. And that's yeah, not coming from a place of like, oh, don't.

Don't box me in, like don't hold me down, Like I'm.

Very secure and we talk about our future and we

The numbers are too high. And so I think that like.

Once you know all this, and once you know, chat to these incredible people who work in the field of dating and sex and relationships like you do, like find

So many young people now are doing that.

If you think futuristically for yourself, without putting any you know, academic or theoretical restrictions on it, what does it look like for you.

Darcy's in the picture like it's it's both of us like football around. He's on the day week.

No, it's it's us, just like I love how much we support each other's careers, and I love how much we support what we're both passionate about, and it's really exciting because we have so many interests. And I'm so excited for him post AFL, Like he's such an incredibly academic and intelligent person and the world really will be

Will we I'm really excited by that.

And just not you know, holding any ideas or restrictions around what our careers could look like and where we could end up together.

What what have you learned about that world that has surprised you?

I think I I think I've learned that, Yes, a lot of the stereotypes do exist, but there's a lot of a lot of men in there that are quite similar to us he that I think people wouldn't expect. You know, there are a lot of really beautiful, kind, feminist men that I've spoken to that I've seen that. Yeah,

Are you into football now? Okay, I'm into supporting my partner right yeah? Yeah, Yeah, But that's a lot. That's a lot to take on, a lot to learn. Yeah, I don't know.

I don't know what either, but I did learn three I've got four children, and three of them are boys, and they all played footy and I had never really had any interest in football, and watching them play football, I realized I had disrespected what it meant.

What did you learn?

I just I think that at being teammates, being part of a team.

Yeah, that's so important, the way that they.

That they show up for each other in a physical sense as well on the field and off the field. That they have to accommodate, like you said, a lot of different personality types and find a way, like humanity, to move together to a common goal. I really realized that I had been disrespectful in my dismissal of something I really didn't know much about.

Yeah.

I think that it's such any sort of team sport. It's such an incredible thing for kids to do, particularly with boys. And we talk about mental health and that maybe men don't talk or maybe they don't know how to, you know, they always say men a side by somede women are faced.

Yeah.

Yeah, and it's often at its best, it's a beautiful manifestation of support and love and comrade hip for each other.

Yeah.

Absolutely absolutely. I think I've only read parts of it, but Helen Ghana talk.

About the season.

Yeah, yeah, and I think that Yeah, It's something that Darcy talks about a lot, and I think it's so important for young kids, especially young boys, and just at that age, like just understanding that the world doesn't you know, it takes some people their whole life to learn, but

And it's so important.

Coming back to the book, And like I said, there's a journey in the book that is so interesting but also very rewarding. If you could go back to your most vulnerable, which I'm imagining was maybe after that car accident, yeah, i'd probably say so, yeah.

What did that d look like? Now?

You know how when you were talking about the therapy and you come back to yourself as like the little girl.

Well, that's what this book was written for.

I dedicated it to my seventeen year old self and the book that I didn't know that I needed. And I think that, yeah, the reason why I really wanted to write this book was because at those lowest points in my life or the times where I felt so lower my self esteem or myself worse. I was constantly chasing and putting up with, you know, behavior, and after that car accident, it was I was just I was

And I think, how, like it's just so fucking sad, Like it is so sad.

And I think that that's kind of why I wanted to write the book, was.

Because those moments I was so desperate, and.

Even post the accident, like reading so many books on like how to get the guy and the rules, and like just walked and changed myself constantly just to try and get any sort of love and affection and attention. And I think that this is the book that I wish I had had, and so I would probably just in part, like everything that I've I've put.

In the book to my younger self.

And that's and that's kind of like why in my conclusion, I write, like I went through all of these things and I would do them all again if it meant that someone else reading this book, you know, I wouldn't have learned what I've learned to be able to put

I've done. I've done my job.

So how do you feel having had a vulnerable conversation you who is so averse to them?

I feel great because I think I was in safe hands, which I knew, and you're coming into this chat that you know, having listened to the episodes that you've done before, Like you have such a powerful way way of making people feel really seen and safe. So yeah, I feel really good. I feel like sometimes you don't even have like a vulnerability hangover, you know, when you leave chat, like, oh, oh my god, what did I just say?

I can't believe that. Yeah, I haven't left yet, but I feel I don't feel that you haven't left yet.

Outside No, I feel like, no, this has been really really nice.

Yeah, I always think probably what you're scared of is the idea of it rather than the execution of it, and that I don't think that anyone particularly experiences anything in life that other people have not experienced, Like it comes in different, a different cloak, but the feelings are the same.

Yeah. Yeah. And the more you sort of cut.

Them loose, which you've done in this book, I think the more liberated you are from them.

Well yeah, and you would know that, right, like having seen so many people and spoken to so many people.

But I think the secrets or shame can hold such a power over you.

Yeah. D Salmon, thank you for showing yourself. Thank you for having me. That was D Salmon.

And if there's one thing that's really stayed with me from our conversation, it's this idea that so many of us are navigating relationships based on expectations. We didn't even consciously choose. D's work and her life really challenges that. It asks what happens if you stop settling, stop shrinking, and actually get honest about what you want. Her book is called It's Not Love Actually, and it's out now. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure you follow no