You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Mama Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on. I didn't want to feel like a murderer. It's not like, you know, it's not like, oh, like I'm this warrior, Like how come you didn't do it to me?
You know?
But I wondered, because why not me? Why not? And I wanted to know because my personality is just so different than the girls. And he looked at me, and I mean it took foreverham to him to look up. It wasn't immediate. He looked at me and with like a really creepy smile, he said, I knew better.
Hello, I'm kateline Brook. Today's guest has lived through something most of us have only ever watched from a distance. You might know the name Daga, the American family made famous by the tl SEE reality series Nineteen Kids and Counting. For years, they were held up the picture of wholesome, god fearing family life, modest dresses, perfect manners, endless babies, and a home ruled by faith. But behind that image lay secrets, silence, and a system of control that dictated
everything from how women spoke to what they wore. Amy dug A King grew up on the edges of that world, the only child in a sprawling family where obedience was prized above honesty. She appeared on the show as cousin Amy Crazy Cousin Amy in fact, loved by fans for her spark and humor, but privately she was beginning to see cracks in the facade, and when abuse, scandals, and hypocrisy within the family came to light, Amy made the painful choice to speak out and to build a life
defied and by truth rather than fear. This is a conversation about what happens when you break away from a system that's been built on silence and find your own faith, build your own family, and find your own voice. On the other side, this is Amy Duggar King. I just finished your book off this morning.
Oh, thank you so much. Okay, Kate, what did you think of it?
Well, there's so much more to it than I was expecting, and there's so much more to your story. Yes, of course, like a lot of people, I knew you sort of vaguely, you know, through your connection with the nineteen in counting very good good genes in the Dugger family. By the way, how beautiful is everybody?
Yes, everyone is very beautiful. Everyone is that we all have the same nose. And yeah, they're all very very handsome and beautiful, beautiful.
People and beautiful eyes.
Beautiful eyes.
You got the green eyes?
Oh I do? I have like chameleon eyes. They change with whatever color I'm wearing.
Ah, but that is the only chameleon like aspect of you, Amy Duga King. It's very true because the rest of you is essentially very sure and uncompromising in certain truths and aspects of yourself.
Would you agree, Yes, I one hundred percent agree with that. I you know, I wanted to be as real and as authentic as I possibly could in this book and just open up and share my heart. And what you see is what to get, you know. I mean my cat might pop up, I oh, my little boy. I mean it's real life. So yeah, I'm just I am so grateful to be here. I have seen Mama Mia before and I think it's I think it's just wonderful.
So so your book, your book that you just referred to, Holy Disruptor, what's the full title of it.
Fully Disruptor, Shattering the shiny facade and getting louder with the truth, right.
Yes, now that's a huge concept. Yes, yes it is, and it was born from of course, people might not know. I was explaining this story to my husband when I was reading your book. He didn't know about the Douggers. He didn't know about nineteen in counting, he didn't even know about seventeen in counting, who were an enormous sensation in the kind of mid teens of this century on television, big TLC show and a huge Christian family literally huge
nineteen kids. Huge. Yes, your aunt and uncle at the helm of that family, Michelle and Jimbob.
Yes.
And you came in and really gave the series a bit of a pep as cousin Amy, yeah, you with a cousin of the nineteen or crazy cousin.
Crazy Yes, yeah, that was definitely a nickname.
And they were part of this religion which I had to write down as well, because of course there's so many offshoots of religions, particularly in the States. The Institute in Basic Life Principles, What did that mean? That religion? How was it manifest?
Basically it was just kind of a like a very closed system. It really promised like a very beautiful life. There's an umbrella, and whoever is under that umbrella as far as like your husband is under that umbrella, or like your the husband is the umbrella, it's God. And then they are over their wives and then over their
children as well. And so it basically said, like, if you love God, if you're going to follow these principles that we have in this book and in this you know, throughout this entire I don't know, it's a whole different mindset, if you will, very very extra extra conservative and Christian Christian, but to the extreme.
So modesty dressing, yes, yes, which means what for the for the women in particular, the women have.
Many many rules dresses only or skirts. They have to cover up their kneecaps, they have to be full length, there can't be any dark makeup. They can't really express themselves. I'm not allowed to cut their hair. Yeah, they can't show their collarbone. Everything is very.
Because the colarbine is above the boob.
That is what that is about. Absolutely, and so yeah, it's just one of those things where the IBLP was definitely very much involved in every aspect of their life.
Yes, and so they were the Duggers were this family that kept growing throughout their series. Yes, and America fell in love with them, so did a lot of the world. Yes, that was exposed to the show. And because they were this great, joyous, wholesome, very obedient. Yes, they seemed like a functional family.
Yeah, there has been a divide, a large divide in our family given everything that's happened.
Yeah, that is sad because you were such an integral part of that family and became an integral part of the show. You modestly describe yourself as sort of a cameo character, a side character, but you really brought a lot of life and fun to that show.
Well, thank you, and.
A counterpoint, I guess to a certain extent, because you were considered very worldly and wild.
Yes, I was the one that they like, people would pray for my soul and when they would see me out in the world, they'd be like, we're praying for you to like find Jesus, and I'm like, this is great, Like that's crazy. You know. I definitely am a believer. It's something that is very dear to my heart. My faith is keeps me strong. I have survived because of my faith, and so yeah, it's just it's just interesting looking back, how many people prayed for my soul when my soul was secure.
You know, it was by contrast to the rest of the duggers that you seemed so wild through the prism of the rest of the world, you also seemed like a modest woman of faith.
Right, Yes, no, thank you for saying that. I definitely like that nickname in that title a little bit more.
And the crazy kind of rubbed you up the wrong way, to the point where you approached your uncle, who was the patriarch of the family, and said, why do I have to be called crazy? Yes?
Yeah, why is that my nickname doesn't really fit?
And what did he say?
He just basically said that, don't worry about it. It's just something fun. Just go with it. It won't matter, you know, just normal, I feel like normal dismissive type of comments, just kind of blew it off like it was nothing.
Yes, but at that point, because you're part of this, you're also under the umbrella. You're not directly under the umbrella, but you've grown up with this belief system as well. You're very familiar with how the dog is operate.
I'm very familiar with it. I never I was never really under an umbrella, if you will, but I was around it, and I you know, there was a couple of times that I felt very controlled by it. Yes in particular, I mean just in general when I would go over there, I would have to kind of change my persona. I couldn't really show the real me.
You know.
It was hard to connect with some of the girls and just some of my family members because they didn't know like the things that teenagers struggle with or even you know, young adults struggle with, because they were very sheltered and just I think, kind of hidden from the world in a lot of a lot of ways. And I understand about protecting children. We should do that, we should, but at some point I feel like we have to,
you know, when age appropriate. We had to talk to them about the real struggles, the real darkness of this world, and it was just something that you know, as you know, you read my book, Kate, and so there was just a lot of hidden pain that I was experiencing and that I never got a chance to really speak to my cousins about it because you know, they didn't know that kind of pain, which is incredible that they didn't. But at the same time, they were having their own pain that I didn't know about.
Well, yes, and in fact a lot of them didn't even know substantially or tangibly what that pain was. But children are, you know, like insects to a certain extent with antenna. Even though a lot of the world is denied to them, the vibrations of them transmit back into them what is going on.
They're very perceptive, very yes.
And because you're a similar age to the older Dugger children, and of course there were so many younger ones. At what point did you become aware that there was some darkness in the family.
There were several instances that happened, and every time that something would happen, I would literally go to my uncle and be like, hey, I saw this, Like I've got to tell you, this is a big deal. Was there was porn found on a computer at one point, and it was way before any scandals or anything like that happened.
Right, So it was like a year before anything happened. You've got a second hand computer, yeah, from Josh Duga.
Yes, yeah, my dad actually got it from him. That was years ago, years, years and years ago before anything came out and I want to make that very perfectly clear, and yeah, it was just I was mistaken. My son never, if I can remember correctly in my own opinion, he basically said like, I, you know, my son never has a problem with dad, and you're mistaken, and there isn't a problem.
So Josh Duga, for people who don't know, was the eldest of the Dugga children, the eldest son. And at one point, this is the way that his parents have told the story, he came to them when he was like twelve, and he said that he had been inappropriately touching at this point, I think two of his sisters while they were asleep, they didn't know, over their clothes, over the blankets or whatever. So the parents sent him
to an affiliated Bible sort of rehabilitation center. Obviously, there was a lot of praying, There was a lot of whatever they say that they thought the situation to be dealt with. He returned to the family, they told the girls about it. The girls had no idea that it had even happened. When Josh came back to the family after six months away or whatever, the girls said they could tell that he was a different person. They thought it was done with. But Amy, it wasn't done with, was it not?
In my opinion, no, ma'am.
So then there was a re occurrence of inappropriate behavior, and then the Duggers let the police know he had a record, but because he as a juvenile, that record was supposed to be sealed. The girls went to the police.
They went to the police, but the police officer that dealt with the crime in the situation turned out to be a predator himself and is now in prison for the same things that Josh is.
That's right, for fifty seven years. Huge sentence, huge sentence. So the girls then turned out that there were five of them, four of the girls in the family and a babysitter. They went to the police. They also made statements that was all supposed to be part of this sealed because they were all juveniles, it was supposed to
be the records were supposed to be sealed. Then, as the show is hitting Max's popularity, somebody leaks those sealed records and the whole Dugger world, I imagine, turns topsy turvy.
I think it completely collapsed. It's an empire that it's just so sad. It's something that I can't even wrap my head around it till this day. But I wrote Holy Disruptor to kind of share the backstory. I think everybody knows, or a lot of people know, especially in the States. Maybe in Australia hopefully so, but a lot of people know. I think the front scandals and the headlines and all of that. But what people don't know
is what I've written in Holy Disruptor. It's my actual life story, yes, and the realness of it, of just the conversations and the things that's gone on in my life that no one ever knew. And it's the lies told were the I mean, I literally in my book have a list of lies that were told to me. And it's not the fact that I'm trying to call out or like you know, shun my family. No, it is absolutely the saddest thing to me that I have
to put boundaries in place like this. I wish to God I didn't have to do this.
So to explain your relationship your mum, Deanna, your precious mother, Yes, is the sister of Jim Bob who was the father of the nineteen And what you've written about in your book so eloquently and very movingly actually is your own story of generational trauma. Yeah, trauma, pain in some cases almost persecution, dysfunction, abuse.
Cruelty, financial abuse. Right, there's a lot in the book. It's like I can smile about it now, I think because I've healed from so much. You know, I'm not making light of the situation. I'm not making light of what is in the book, because there is some deep and dark and awful things in the book. But you're seeing a healed version of amy where I can speak openly and just smile from ear to ear knowing that like, I don't have to live that way anymore. You know.
Well, it's very interesting because, of course, a well known Bible scripture is the Truth will set you free.
So true. It really is so true. It has I feel a thousand times lighter by sharing my story. And I literally said, I don't care about New York Times bestseller. That's not why I did it. I did it to help hearts. I did it to connect with women and people all over the world that have experienced all kinds of abuse and gas lighting and narcissistic abuse and love bombing and flying monkeys and all the all the terms used that are that are so important to know about
narcissistic people. It's just so sad that people use it in the name of Jesus. People hide under the mask of Jesus, and yet they can hurt little ones, and they can lie and steal and cheat and do all these things.
It's horrible when you're talking amy about narcissistic people, who are you referring to in particular your own family and then.
Yeah, my own family and my extended family. I mean, and it shows I wouldn't I don't want to call out names, but it literally shows you know, what you put out in the world, what you put, what you say, what you do, your reputation matters. And when it's not with your words and your actions aren't matching up, that's a huge problem. That's a huge character flaw in a person. And I just think it's really important to share the backstories as to why. You know, one minute, we're on
a show and everything's great. In the next minute and it's nowhere to be found and you know all the things. And so for me, I was like, Wow, how can my story connect with people around the world? And I can literally like be like, how can you be a holy disruptor? In your own life, how can you disrupt the toxic cycles that are in your own family? And that's what I wrote about.
And at what point did you decide that you were going to write a book, Because it's very interesting that from that side of the family, I gather that there you have a relationship with Jill.
You, Yeah, she's wonderful.
She's the only daughter that you're you have contact with still.
Jill and I have a very healthy cousinship. Her boys come over, they've they've stayed the night. We just have such a great relationship and we connect our stories and she's just such a wonderful person. The other girls I haven't spoken to in a really long time. I have reached out a Ginger couple of times, But you know, I understand that they have to be they think they think they need to be, in my opinion, loyal to the family name, and that they still have to like
honor their parents and all of that. And I just hope someday that they all, all of them, as a whole, will think for themselves and outside of maybe what they've been taught, I think there's a whole lot that they probably still need to learn and heal from in my opinion.
Sure, because they brothers gone to gile, he's in prison. The family are still have still aside from Jill, are there any others they seem to have closed ranks?
Yeah, I'm not really sure of honestly who all is. But none of them really speak out loud, you know. I'm Jill Do's Jill has her book is incredible.
So has she stepped out from under the umbrella? Oh?
Yeah, there's no umbrella. She uses it only for the rain.
Yeah.
She's her own person and I love to see it. She's just wonderful and boho bohemian and you can just tell she's so she's so happy, she's so happy, and I just I love that for her.
After the break, Amy recalls the moment she saw the truth about her family on the front cover of a magazine. It's interesting because I think often when you're raised in a religious family, which I also was, Okay, you only know the normal that you grow up with. And all children are like that anyway, aren't they to a certain extent?
Oh? Yeah for sure.
At what point did you start to think what I've regarded as normal is probably irregular?
Good question. With the scandal started happening when the first one blew our minds?
So which was which was the first one? Was that when it was printed on the cover of the magazine, when it was you saw Walmart.
That I saw it in Walmart, and that moment, I was just like, what, Like, what is this? This could not be true. There's no way this can be true.
Imagine tell me about that, Die Amy, tell me about where you were, And.
Yeah, I was. I don't even I honestly don't even know what I was doing at Walmart. It's been so long ago, getting some groceries, minding my own business, you know, and just I don't really pick up magazines normally. But when you see a house that you have gone to a million plus times on a front cover with the words House of Horrors and big bold letters printed on it, you stop in your tracks and you go, what is this? Oh my gosh, And I knew something was off. My
heart was pounding, I was like sweating. I had tears in my eyes. People probably thought I was crazy. At Walmart, you know, I'm just staring at this magazine title and this cover, and I just I was so broken hearted, and at the same time, I didn't want to believe it.
But when you saw that title House of Horrors, it must have brought back to you the computer it did. What was your first thought? Did you know straight away that it was something to do with Josh? Like, how are you processing it? I have the knowledge that you had.
I honestly didn't. I didn't want to go there, right. I always wanted to believe the good in people. And I'm not necessarily naive, especially not anymore, but I used to just believe what I was told. So I asked my grandma, I asked my mom. They had no idea what it was, you know, my mom or my grandma was given some kind of Oh they were they were just camping, and he and Josh went and scared the girls and got a little too close, you know, And I was like, what that doesn't make sense. Why is
that a headline? And then you're right, I did. I started to think about the things that I tried to get someone to pay attention to years ago.
Was that also, before that, before you saw that headline you write in your book about when you found one of your cousins in the fatal position in the pantry, crying.
Yes, that was all before the headlines as well.
Right, okay, so you must have thought of that as well. That incident I did.
I did. I was thinking, oh my goodness, what caused that person to react in such a like just a broken way. I had a million questions. And the thing is, Kate, is that the truth has always been very hard to find in my family, and it's really I hate that. Why does it have to be that way?
Well? I think you know why, Amy, I do. People only hide the truth when the truth is at odds with what they're trying to project. Like what do you ever hide in life? People hide treasure, and they hide seen and shame.
Right, they hide darkness. They it's just it's so sad and so yeah. In that moment, I think I just was like, oh no, I just broke down. I just broke down. And it took me a really long time to face the truth that this is actually happening and that there's so much more to the story.
Did you buy the magazine?
I didn't. I read the article and I just stood there and then I was like, oh my gosh, like, because magazines can write anything, right, So I wanted to give my family a chance to just be honest with me and so I did call my uncle after that after seeing that, and I was told that there was no truth to the story. And I was told that don't it'll let it blow over. There's no truth to it. Don't don't talk to media about it. It's just they needed a story, that they needed a headline. And I
was like, oh, man, I'm so sorry. You guys have to deal with that because that's a really like negative, ugly headline.
And at that time, of course, Josh was married, wasn't he, And there had been he just got married on the show that was a special. It had rated enormously worse.
Yeah. Yeah, it's just I'm like, I want to know the truth, and you know, regardless if it's bad or good, it's just I feel like people deserve the truth. And that's why I wrote Holy Disruptor, is to say, hey, there's a whole lot more story that has never been told. And no, it's not a tell all, you know, it's not a tell all of my family, like here's all the crap, you know, here's all the bad things. But at the same time, it's the story of my life
from the beginning all the way until now. It really connects the dots as to why things happen and why there's boundaries in place. Yes, there has to be there has to be boundaries and place. I must protect my child, I must do it.
I actually found your book to be very uplifting, Thank you, because it's the tale of how you've come out of a lot of darkness in your own life. It's also very interesting about generational brokenness, generational brokenness in your family, your mother who suffered at the hands of her grandparents, who were also Jimbob's parents, of parents and grandparents. Yes,
do you think that. I mean, even when you're telling in your book about how you were never allowed to be alone with your grandfather and you didn't understand why that was. What were the rules in place that you were told about your grandfather?
Oh, my goodness. Well, first off, my grandma was like my second mom. She helped raise me. When my mom wasn't available to pick me up from school, my grandma did. We went shopping together, we were best friends. We did everything together. So it was we had this really really we were the closest out of all the cousins. I was the closest to Grandma. And they all know that
they would all say that. But I think that because of that type of relationship that we had, she could just be open and honest and tell me, well, okay, I wouldn't say she was open and honest. I think there was a lot she was hiding a lot of pain, a lot of hurt, a lot of things she didn't know how to even work through. But I do think that she just made it really like easy to understand. I was a little girl. So she'd be like, Hey, if you see Grandpa, you know, in the hallway at night,
don't go out and say hi to him. Just stay in your room. And I was like okay, and she was like, now we lock our door, like I'm gonna check your door every night, make sure it's locked. And I was like, okay, Like it wasn't. She didn't make it sound like he was like a terrible person. It was more of just like, hey, like this is just practical and what we do. And so I just knew, step by step that's what we do. I knew my
grandpa didn't sit on the couch with me. I knew if I had a blanket on the couch, I had to move if my grandpa sat down beside me, I knew that he couldn't be in the backyard with me. I knew I couldn't be in a car with him. I knew he couldn't like take me on a fun outing. He couldn't pick me up from school, he couldn't take me from school. I knew these like big rules. But I also thought it was just practical. And I just
like I said, I was young. You believe what you're told, and so for me, I didn't put the two and two together until I was older.
Right, what was the moment where you went an incident you write about in the book where he called you into his room.
Whyn, That wasn't me, that was my mom. That was my mom, that that happens. How she knew, That's how she knew? Oh right, Yeah, I did not know for a very long time. It wasn't until my grandma passed and my grandpa were gone that my mom sat me down, bawling her eyes out and just told me the truth about them. I think she wanted to protect me as long as possible, And yeah, it's just something that Thank god, my grandma checked my door every night. Thank God my
mom protected me. You know, I don't know what well I know what could have happened.
When she told you the truth of her parents, which is also very hard to speak aloud for a number of reasons, sure, but also because they were also a religious family as well, so there was lucky.
There were They went to church every Sunday, everywhere day, very much involved in the church.
When she told you the truth of them, how did she put it to you?
She just said that I need to tell you the truth about some things. Have a seat, And I was like, okay, and I was kind of, you know, like touched her shoulder and I was like, what's going on? And she was just like, there's a lot of things that you don't know that you need to know because this is an important part of our family's history. And I was just, I mean, what do you do? I literally plummeted like
a rock. I felt like I've always had this feeling over me that I can protect my mom, that I need to protect my mom I always have from my dad, from everybody. I've always felt.
Because your mom said herself, and you write this, your mom always said about you, You're the tree that shaded me. Yes, yes, which gives me goose bumps.
Yeah. Yeah, it's a very powerful statement when you really think about it. I just remember us both crying and and we just held each other, you know, and I just said, I'm so sorry for the pain that you experienced in your life.
Amy. Do you think that at the point that she told you timeline wise, I'm trying to get this clear, do you think that was because of what was happening in the other arm of the family.
No, my mom had no idea at all. We found out about all the other darkness in the family on national television like everyone else. Wow, slap in the face. That is a slap in the face to find out horrible truths that we were told were completely like you know, there was no truth to it at all, National Television.
Were you together when you were watching it? Yes.
I was actually trying on my wedding dress. Oh yeah, and uh my mom got a text and said turn on the TV. You have to see this, And so we were like, what in the world. So we turned on the TV and we just sat there and just cried. I just sat I was in my wedding dress crying and what was that story about the about the girls? There was you know, when it actually came to truth that it was true. You know. The headline on the on the magazine was just, oh, what's this, you know,
but there's no truth to it yet. So that was when the first moment that I even got a whim of like something could be off, you know, but when it actually came true and was awful and disgusting on every level. Yeah, we saw it on television.
Your grandma, who you were talking about, who played such an amazing pivotal role in your life, also was the one that got you involved in the TV show.
Yes, correct, Yes, yeah, she was stubborn as a mule. Okay, let me tell you. She knew she had she had her inner workings. She's a very she was a very smart woman, and I think she just just kind of put two and two together in her mind. And yeah, that's why I was on the show in the first place. I never asked to be on the show. I never hinted to be on the show. I never tried to be you know, jumping the camera, nothing, nothing. I knew that that was their world and I would just see
them after, you know. And I never thought in a million years that being on a reality show for as long as I did would equal a huge documentary on Amazon, Shiny Happy People, that has just blown the charts, and I'm so glad that the truth has been exposed. And then because of that, now I have a memoir about the things that have gone on in my own life.
When you went that day to pick up your grandma to taker to the dentist, I think it was to.
An appointment, Yeah, just to an appointment. I forgot what it was now, it's been so long ago.
And she said, come in and you tell the story of how you drove up to the house and there were the film crew trucks everywhere, and you knew that they always filmed, but prior to that, you'd not really been around when they were filming, though you did spend a lot of time with your cousins in at the house.
Right, Yes, I just didn't ever show up on like the filming days.
Right. So that day, your grandma seed, I've just got to do a few things. I want you to come in, right, like you said, she knew what she was doing. Yeah, And my understanding of it is that she was giving you a gift. Then, because for all the ensuing fallout of it, you were on that show for one hundred and nine episodes and over having a great time and you seed it. Yes, yeah, yeah right, it opened the world up to you, it did.
I listen. It's not that I'm not grateful for the opportunities. I know that I would be absolutely well. First off, let me just say this, O, Kate, I don't consider myself famous, not even a little bit. Okay, Like I do not like the famous title. I think that is ridiculous. I'm just a cousin that people will know. You know. It's just something that if you're like, oh yeah, the cousin on the show. Oh yeah, it's like that. I want to be relatable. I want to be friendly to everyone.
I don't feel famous. Let me just say that.
But however you identify, yeah, it's probably at odds with how the world identifies you, because I imagine even when you were standing in Walmart looking at that magazine, there were people looking at you. Guys. Yeah this crazy casin Amy reading about it.
Yeah. No, it's true. I mean I am one of the people that, like, I guess when people do see me out in public, they'll be like Amy, hey, and like they'll just act like they know me, and I am I am that bubbly type of personality, very sanguine and like I'll just hug them and I'm like, it's so nice to meet you. It's thank you, Like you know,
I'm very I it's very humbling. It is extremely humbling to be noticed like that and to just, I don't know, to share my story in such a real and honest and raw way in.
The fallout of the show. So when these revelations came to light, the show was waiting to be rolled over into another season. That didn't happen, did it?
That brought It's not yeah preaching Holt to everything greeching Holt. I actually they were very interested in filming my wedding and it's something that you know, I wanted to kind of give as a gift to the to the viewers, to the ones that grew up with me, to see me married and all of that. But at the same time, with everything going on, they were like, you're gonna have to postpone it or just do it without it, and
I was like, I'm not waiting. I want to be married, like you know, I had, I had everything set everything, and so that, yeah, it stopped a screeching Holt.
And your husband Dylan. Yes, who has been such a pillar of strength to you.
He is my hero.
What did he make coming into the family. What was his reading? You know, sometimes you see through the eyes of a stranger things that you haven't seen yourself.
Yes, no, he So here's the thing. They didn't really get to know Dylan. He was over there a couple of times, and I really remember like some funny moments. I'll just tell you. There was one time that Dylan was talking to one of my little cousins, so sweet, so innocent, you know, and she's like, Dylan, what's your favorite color? And he's like black and they were like oooh like and he was like, what black looks sexy on a car? And I like kicked him underneath the
table and I was like, stops. And he's like what did I do? What did I do? You know, like all that kind of thing.
Because black is the forbidden color.
Correct. There was another time that they met him and I was like, Okay, let's try this again. It was someone's birthday party and we went to a place that had you know, there was music, and you know, it was kind of loud, and it was bowling and it was like glow bowling that we were going to, and Dylan walked in dancing. Oh, he walked in dancing, and.
I've forbidden also forbidden.
Also the beat it has to Yeah, if it's an offbeat of any kind of drum, it's considered worldly and ungodly. And here he is just dancing and walking in and trying just to lighten the mood of like, Hey, I'm Dylan, and they all I Am not even kidding Kate. They all looked at him and turned completely around.
Oh, so they wouldn't say the what the work of wickedness, which was the dancing.
Right, yes, and so I he was like, what did I do? And so unfortunately they never truly got to see the man that I married and the person that he is.
Were they at your wedding?
They were, they were, But again it was a very interesting family dynamic there. They loved me, but only as far as they could get.
Coming up next, Amy reflects on her relationship with her cousins and the unusual interactions they had. You also say in your book that sometimes when you would meet the girls on the street, for instance, they would greet you like you were a stranger. Yeah, even though you were their cousin that they saw so much of. Yeah, why was that? Do you think?
I really don't know. I honestly think that there was so much hidden pain going on they didn't know how to probably process it. They didn't know how to handle
the outside world in a lot of ways. This is clearly just my opinion, but I honestly think that there was just so much hidden that they were just like, oh, hi, let's not I think they also knew that I have perception as well, and like I've got discernment and so like, if I could tell something was off, then I could tell something was off, you know.
But quite likely they'd been warned about you because you were perceived to be Yeah.
That too. That too because I wasn't necessarily as godly as maybe they would have wanted me to be. Yeah, I was considered maybe not someone that would understand their role in life and the way they presented themselves and all of that. I tried my hardest, though.
You sure died.
I just show them love and to be the cousin to them and try to introduce them to different things. You know. I would do cheerleading on the trampoline and teach them like secret cheerleading.
Moves and no dancing.
No dancing, but you know cheering like that's okay. Oh and I taught them like how to straighten their hair.
You had to get special permission for that, didn't you.
I did. Yes, Yeah, that was something that I was like, listen, if they can't cut their hair, at least give them another option to style it, you know, kind of thing. I loved them. I love I still do, you know. Yeah, my book is not written out of bitterness, not even a little bit. You know, I have no bitterness towards my family at all. It's just I'm a truth seeker and I'm not going to put up with lies. And I don't think the world should either.
So that is your compulsion to tell the truth. Yeah, is a big driver.
It is a big driver.
At what point did you realize you couldn't, you couldn't protect the family and protect the truth. What was that moment?
Yeah, that's a really crazy thing. So you would think it had been the first scandal, right, but it actually wasn't. You have to understand that my family forgive and forget quickly, right, You're told that that's godly to do. So that's what I did. That's what I did, and so I saw everyone else. This is years later after the first scandal, and this second scandal, the Ashley Madison scandal as well, happened all around the same time.
Oh yeah, tell me about the Ashley Madison scandal.
Oh, that one is just awful. The Ashley Madison scandal is actually like the stupidest thing. There's a website called Ashley Madison and the tagline is life is too short, Have an affair.
It was for married people.
It was for married people to have an affair and to find people to cheat on, to cheat with, which is absolutely disgusting.
And once again, Josh Daga.
He had two accounts. He used a famous picture and used my grandma's address.
And this is while he was married to his wife Anna.
Yeah, while he was married.
And how did that scandal come.
Out on the TV as well? On the TV as well? Wow, we had no idea, We had no idea that even existed. I didn't know what Ashley Madison website was. I mean, oh my goodness, but there was a huge data breach and so Ashley Madison had a huge data breach and every name on there came out, So it wasn't just my cousins. It was everybody's thousands and thousands of names came out. Pastors, all kinds of fathers, dads, priests, whatever, they all came out. It's just so sad that so
many people live a double life. It was just it's disgusting to me.
So it was after the Ashley Madison scandal that you went, I can serve the truth, or I can serve the family or was they something further? What had happened?
It still better than that. It still wasn't. It still wasn't because I was just like, well, because I in my heart, I should back up. I confronted Josh. I confronted Josh. I went to see him. After the whole sister scandal, awful stuff came out. I was like, why is where's the truth? What's going on? What's the real story? Blah blah blah. I was hearing all kinds of different stories. So I went and discussed it with Josh head on.
Where were you? Where did you go find him?
I found him in the RV that was about, I don't know, very close to the home.
So had he been banished from the house and he was living in this RVEY.
He was living out there. Yeah, I don't know much information about why. I have my reasons, but yes, I went out there and I just looked at him, dead in the face, and I was just like, how long has this been going on? You know, all the questions? And he was dead, silent for a really long time, and it was making me more mad and more mad and more mad.
You know.
It was a taking time bomb. And I finally asked him one one specific question and I got the answer that I didn't want to get. And in that moment, I realized, I am walking away from this house and I am never probably coming back.
Was that question when you said to him, why did you never do it to me? Was that that question? Yeah? And what did he say?
I didn't want to feel like a martyr. It's not like, you know, it's not like, oh, like I'm this warrior, Like how come you didn't do it to me? You know? But I wondered, because why not me?
Why not?
And I wanted to know because my personality is just so different than the girls. And he looked me, and I mean it took forever him to him to look up, and it wasn't immediate. He looked at me and with like a really creepy smile. He said, I knew better. And you know, that's like a knife to the heart to know that a predator knows knew who to prey on and who what are the girls that are going to be silent and not say anything and be in pain and not not reach out for help. They can't,
they feel silenced. And he knew, he knew in his heart that I would have raised hell, he knew it.
And also that was at odds with what the family's narrative was, which that his father. When you listen to his father's language, he's still soft of heart and we can help him, and he's very contrite and he's repentant. You saw in that moment that none of that was true, and you saw the calculating mind of a preyer.
Yeah, it was the most scariest moment because I looked at him. I have someone I grew up with my entire life, and I realized in that moment, I don't know this person at all. Who is this person? This is demonic and scary and evil and someone that I will not have in my life. And I won't have
anyone that lies to me in my life. You know, if someone lies to you, Kate, they don't love you, they don't respect you, they don't you know, You're like a pawn in a chess game and they just move around to control and manipulate and do whatever they can and to fit their narrative. But their narrative that they're shit sharing to the world. And this could be any this could be anyone. It's not true. It's not true. When the words and actions match up, that's when it's truth.
And so for me, in that moment, I didn't want to feel like a superhero, but I left. They might not have liked, you know how I was there in that moment, but I left feeling like a superhero confronted evil. I said my truth. I said I'm not gonna this is something I'm not gonna allow in my life. And in that moment I put up boundaries that have since then never been crossed.
It's interesting because you say also in your book, which is a very interesting analysis of how predatory and abusive behavior happens, and you say this, which is so wise. You say, abuses often start subtly probing for boundaries and observing their victims' reactions, and then you sort of go on to say that if they don't encounter resistance, then they know oh.
And they know, yeah, Oh, you're easy to manipulate, You're easy to control, and I can have power over you.
And yet the father of the nineteen Dagger family, Jim Bob, still exerts power over that family.
Those are your words, not mine, but I I will definitely say that I don't think you were wrong in that statement.
Do you think that there's ever any chance that any of the others will have a reckoning? Like, how do they process the fact that their eldest brother is in jail?
I have no idea. Your guess is as good as mine. I honestly have no idea. When I left that day from my cousin's home. I haven't spoken to them since then. They've never reached out, and I've never reached out either. And it's a boundary that I won't cross, especially given you the most disgusting, saddest news of all of Why he's in prison now? I will protect my child more than anything.
Why is he in prison now?
He had a child abuse material found on his I don't know, laptop or phone or whatever. Illegal disgusting lows to the low content. I can't wrap my head around it. I seriously cannot.
And even when I don't, can't remember which law enforcement armities Homeland right, Homeland Security conducted a raid on him at his work at a car wash where he was working a car lot.
They own a car lot, they're yeah, they're on their own car dealership, right.
And even then his dad was lying about why that had happened, yes, saying they went to the wrong address, they were looking for someone else.
Yeah, those lies, in my book are a span of weeks. Those didn't just happen all at one time. We asked several times if there was truth to anything that was being told, anything on TV. I even pleaded honestly with my uncle and I told him, I said, please, don't let us be ambushed. We've been ambushed twice on the television. Please if there's some thing to this, let us know. And he was like, oh, yeah, there isn't. There's no
truth to any of this. And in that moment it was the same response, almost robotic, if you will, that I knew that that couldn't probably be the truth.
But he looked to you straight in the eye.
This was on the phone the first time that was seid st in the straight in the ear, and I just like listened to it and I was like, I've heard I've heard this before. I've heard this exact line before, And unfortunately I don't want to be right. I hate it. I hate the fact that I have to have these boundaries in place. But I, like I said, I'll do everything in my power to protect my peace and my mindset and my mental health and and my little my little family and my son and my mom. I will
protect my mom more than anything. And so I'm like a mama bear all the way around. And so it's not even just my own child, it's every child, you know. Oh my gosh, if I could adopt them all, I would. I have such a heart for them. And so yeah, it just breaks my heart for anyone that can hurt.
In your book, speaking of children as a child, you talk about you lying under the trampoline and longing for peace. I did. And you say you thought peace then was silence, but you've since realized what pieces.
I've realized that peace is disrupting toxic cycles. That's how you have peace. It's not silence and being quiet and just letting go with the flow. And not you know, standing up for what you believe. It's it's not it's not just you know, churning your head and pretend it's not there and avoiding it. And that's not peace. What peace is saying like it ends with me. It's stopping
in my generation. This will not continue in future generations as far as I'm concerned and standing up for what is right.
So when you look at now the life that you've built with your husband and your son, Dacks, do you think that you have built the life that you dreamt off under the trampoline?
My goodness, you're gonna make me cry. God is good like that. I feel like he's a he loves to restore and I feel like, yes, I believe so. I don't know if you can hear anything behind me, but this is my house. This is just where I live and where I you know, do life. And it's I did give you just a picture of it. My son loves to cook, so he cooks with daddy, you know, on Sunday brunch.
How old is Dax now?
He just turns six? Okay, there is just there's a real real about my little family. And my mom is safe here and secure and she can heal and process and work through things. And we have each other now, you know, and it's just such a beautiful thing.
If JLSE came to you and said we want to make a reality show, what would you say?
Oh my goodness. I think there'd be a lot of questions before I ever did another reality show. I don't know if that's even a possibility, but I will just say that whatever I do, no matter what project it is, no matter what it is, I'm going to be as real as I am right now. And if there is the you know, I can't say my husband and I never argue, right, because that's not real. Everyone has tifts, and so I would just want it to be real.
I wanted to show real marriage, real parenting, you know, real everything, and the ups and downs of what it really looks like in my family. And so yeah, I'm not against it, but I would definitely want to make sure that it's like Kardashians who love Jesus, you.
Know, yeah, right, Yeah, And that the skeletons in the closet.
Yeah, there's no skeletons in the closet. There's some Halloween decor. That's about it.
Yeah, Ron, you still have the name Daga. You're Amy Douga King.
Yeah, actually I'm not. My middle name is Rochelle. My name is Amy Rochelle King. The Dugger name is my maiden name. Though when I was in elementary school, my name was Amy Dugger. My mom and dad had me at a wedlock. My mom's maiden name was Dougger, and then I got Dugger name. So I've never changed my name in order to be more liked or to be more accepted in the family. But for the book purposes, they were like, people are going to recognize the Dugger
name because that's who you used to be. You used to beat Amy Dugger and then you got married. And so I was like, okay, okay, yes we can put that in there because it makes sense. People knew me as Amy Duggar for years before I got married.
Of course, on a very successful, highly lucrative TV show. So I have to ask you this, Amy Dugger, you must have made a fortune being on a TV show.
Well, if I did, if there was any kind of compensation, I never saw it.
It is the most extraordinary thing when I read that, Yeah, and your conversation with your uncle saying and it was when you were, you know, distancing yourself from the family. Yes, and things had come to a natural, unnatural end with the show. You never received any financial recompense for your work on that show.
I had a conversation with my uncle before the last huge, disgusting scandal happened, and he did write me a check. I talk about it in the book. But during the show, and during the whole filming of the show, I never received any kind of compensation whatsoever.
And even when he wrote you the check, it was thirty thousand dollars. And then Jill has since revealed that he made from that show eight million dollars. Yeah, did he As far as you know, did any of the kids receive any of the cut of that or does it all go to the umbrella?
In my opinion, it all goes to the umbrella. That's been a hard one to swallow, you know, just just because like we all worked, there was hours of interviews, there was it was work, regardless if you think or not. It was a reality show. Yes, but there's care and it's exhausting. You're always on, you know, you can't just be yourself, not be yourself, but you're you're always on.
You're aware there's cameras, you know, and so I definitely believe that we deserved more, all of us did, every single one of us.
So I understand that the Doug A name is such a recognizable one. People are going to pick up the book because they know you, they recognize the name. But what does that name mean to you? Now?
It's a really good question, I think For me, I don't know. I feel like for me, it just reminds me of the questions, the lies, the secrets, the things that were never told. It's kind of stained in my opinion. And so I love the fact that now my name is Amy King. It's like a new beginning, It's a new chapter.
You know.
People can they can I know the story, they can know what's happening, they can know, you know, my backstory, of course, But I hope the Amy that they saw on TV is so different from the Amy that they see now. In what way, I just have done the hard work of healing, working through just so much chaos. You know, I believe that God is not the author of confusion, and that's all I lived in for the
longest time. And so now you know, I'm almost forty, I'm like thirty thirty nine, and I'm just I really like the slow pace of life and the peacefulness that it brings when you tell the truth and you just you know, cut the power cord of someone that's trying to control and manipulate.
Well, speaking of control and manipulate, how should the Institute of Basic Life Principles be viewed? Now? Do you think? And how do you view them?
Yeah? Great question. In my opinion, I view them as a cult. It's a leader that you know, promises to have a care free and that God's going to protect you no matter what as long as you follow these principles. But there's a lot of sad and sickening things about the IVLP. In my eyes, they don't protect children. They don't. You can see it. You know, my family is on TV and people know the headlines and the really sad
scandals that's happened. But there are probably thousands of families that are in the IVLP that have the exact same story. It just wasn't a headline news, you know.
When the headlines came out. Did the church leadership have any official intervention?
No? In my opinion as well, I believe they went radio silence. I truly believe that it's a breeding ground for all kinds of abuse and crimes. Did you know that they don't even allow their children to learn about the word abuse. The word abuse is not even a word that they can even know what it is. So if something were to happen within the home, or within a family camp, or wherever there is predators, because I guarantee you there are, they don't know what to even call it. Wow, it's really sad.
You know, for those who are raised within institutions of control as you were. What does true freedom feel like?
Oh my goodness, Kate, it is the most beautiful and wonderful thing. I don't take anything for granted anymore. I will, Like, just before our podcast, I just like sat outside on my patio and I just felt the warmth of the sun literally, and I was like, this is amazing. This is amazing because I grew up in so much chaos and turmoil and fear and control and manipulation and abuse that I didn't I didn't know that this kind of life is possible. I didn't know.
How do you think you won that life for yourself?
I think I had this rep toxic cycles and I had to break chains that were generational. I felt like, basically, just think of it like this. It's like having a big garden, right, and you see a lot of weeds right in this garden, and if you keep them there, they're going to overtake the garden.
Right.
You got to rip them out. You have to like stand up for yourself and say I want better for my life, and I want better for my child, and I want better for future generations. And you have to just yank out those from the root, right. And that's just really what I've had to do.
Oh, crazy, cousin Aimy, if you're crazy, I don't want to be signed.
I don't feel crazy at all. I feel very validated, insane, and it is a beautiful thing and you're a part of it, and I just want to say thank you. For a while there, I was silenced for a really long time, and I didn't think I had any self confidence. I felt like no one wanted to hear from me, no one cared. When I was offered this book, idea, I told my editor, I told like the president of HarperCollins, Okay, I was like, I'm gonna be really honest with you.
I don't think people are going to read my story and she was like what, and I was like, I just I don't. I have a really hard time believing in myself. And she was like, I want you to take some time and I want you to pray about it, and I want you to really understand that your story can help so many people. And in that moment, I was just like, this is an open door that God has allowed to be opened, and I'm going to walk through it. I'm going to walk through it. I'm going
to just trust the process. I'm going to walk through it. And I'm so glad that I did because it has led me to talk to the most amazing people. And I just hope for the people that are hearing this conversation that if you're struggling, if you're hurting, if you have toxic cycles in your family, if you're around a narcissistic person, educate yourself. I think that's one of the
main things is educate yourself. Get to know how narcissistic people react and what charges them, and you know how they go about life, and then make the proper decisions that the boundaries that are going to just keep you safe.
Purely hypothetical, but if one of the nineteen and counting was going to read your book? Who do you think it might be?
Oh goodness, that's a good question. I hope they all do.
But you know they're not going to.
But they're not going.
But who's the one who's most likely to slyly secretly your aunt?
I don't know. I mean, I hope so I would love for her to read my real story. I would love. I would love to connect with all of them. I have a very open door policy that if they ever have questions and they ever want to get to know the true me, the door is always open, and my heart goes out to them.
Amy Douga King, thank you so much for joining us on No Filter.
Thank you.
That's a wow of a story. Amy Dougah King is so courageous, and she shows the kind of curry that I think isn't loud or showy, but it's the quiet, daily kind that comes from telling the truth, even when it costs you everything. Her memoir, Oh Holy Disruptor, isn't just about breaking away from family or a restrictive faith. It's actually about what it means to rebuild from the inside out, to question just about everything that you've ever been taught to reclaim your sense of worth, your motherhood
and your peace. Oh Holy Disruptor is out now wherever you get your books. And it's such a good read. It's really raw and brave and kind of sweet and surprisingly hopeful considering it's also got some real darkness in it. Thank you for listening to No Filter. The executive producer of No Filter is Nama Brown. The senior producer is Breed Player. Audio production is by Jacob Brown and video editing is by Josh Green. This episode was recorded at Session in Progress Studios and I am your host, Kate
lane Brook. I will see you next Monday. Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters that this podcast is recorded on