Episode 71: Extreme Horror Iceberg Volume Five

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tackling the nitty-gritty complex horror topics with the hope of making the genre more approachable for frequent flyers and newbies alike. The goal of this show is to highlight diverse voices and perspectives in horror. This is your reminder there may be discourse on this show that will challenge the way you look at the genre. So let's get ready to get ugly.

I'm the ghost with the blog, Lonely, and I'm joined by my co-host and partner in crime. I'm Susie, aka ProjectileVarmint, and I actually have no idea what to talk about with you tonight. Well, don't worry, because it was recently the summer solstice. Did you celebrate? Did you do anything? I did not. I probably should have put a glass of water in my yard so it could absorb the moonlight power and I should have drank it in the morning, but I forgot.

Yes, that's exactly what I would have told you to do. Do you remember where you used your extra hour of daylight for? Probably watching one of the movies that we have to talk about tonight. Oh, that is a rough way to spend it. What about you? What did you do with your extra hour? I harvested our sage bush. So we have a sage garden. We have a herb garden that my father-in-law takes very good care of. And we planted this sage plant like in the height of COVID.

And this thing is like invincible. We have cut this thing back so many times, harvested from it so many times. I actually used the sage from the bush for my wedding favors. So that thing was like decimated by last winter and it is alive and well. And you know what? Ain't that just a good metaphor for life? We can always grow back, but that's enough good metaphors for this evening because we were only talking about darkness and depravity tonight because we are back.

what the extreme horror iceberg and as we've we've had a couple double features on this this series and i know y'all are really enjoying it so we are welcoming back back again back for the third time We're getting up there. A very special guest. Who is back with us tonight, Susie? Well, we always bring back our favorites. So tonight we have Dr. Shock Dave Becker coming back on the show to talk about the extreme horror iceberg with us.

Last time we got into tiers one, two, and three, and today we're going deeper and darker into the iceberg. But if you've forgotten, Dave Becker has been podcasting since 2010. He is a current co-host of Land of the Creeps and Jay of the Dead. and was a regular co-host on the old version of the horror movie podcast.

He has a blog at DVDinfatuation.com where he has reviewed nearly 3,000 movies. Maybe at this time, 3,001, we'll find out. And hosts his own podcast, the DVD Infatuation Podcast, which is hosted on Considering the... cinema welcome back dr shock have you gotten one more movie on that list yet um oh yeah i'll be honest with you i actually have 20 uh on the list i just don't know if they're gonna post

I'm taking a bit of a bit of a break because one of the things when you write a movie review, you don't just write it, you rewrite it and then you rewrite it and then you rewrite it. The good reviewers do. You can't just post your first draft of a review. At least I can't. Do any of the movies you watch stand out? Any of those 20 off the top of your head? Putting you on the spot.

okay yeah you are putting me on the spot um there is actually what movie should i watch tomorrow night give me one right now the horror at 37 000 feet Perfect. We need no more. That's going to be 3001. All right. It is a TV movie that I think has, it stars a number of people, but it has William Shatner in it. Oh, okay. And it is William Shatner being the best William Shatner he could be.

Well, tonight we are not going to be talking about any movies, including William Shatner, but we will be continuing with our Extreme Horror Iceberg series. We're excited to welcome Dr. Shock back to, you know, finish out the rest of the iceberg. tiers four through six.

As a reminder, our extreme iceberg is a version of an iceberg chart or iceberg tier list. The tip of the iceberg outlines the content that most people know about, whereas the parts on the iceberg that are underwater outline more hidden or unknown and maybe even... unwatchable content you know it's that time in the recording where i'm just like laughing hysterically off mic at the just william shatter over a little shatner shatner is such a hard name to say shatner the shot the shot even worse

Hopefully, you know, I don't think there's any shots that he got in the last three years on this episode. We'll be chatting tonight. We'll be chatting. But let me tell you what's on the iceberg. As a reminder, as Susie mentioned, our full iceberg will be in our show notes and it's posted on our Instagram. As we move through the episodes, we're actually keeping track of which films have already been featured on the show. So you can keep track of how many films we've got left to watch.

Here's an overview. There are six tiers on the iceberg. Tier one is the tip of the iceberg, which is above the water. These are films that most horror fans have seen and contain various degrees of jump scares and some mild gore. Some examples include Psycho and The Exorcist. Tier 2, we begin our journey underwater and hear the gore and the violence begin to escalate. Examples include Hereditary and Hostile.

Tier 3 marks the halfway point of our journey, and this is where most horror fans begin to be pushed to their limits. The body horror, gore, sexual violence, and depictions of death become... Pretty unsettling for most typical horror fans. And these films may include things like Last House on the Left and The House That Jack Built.

Tier 4 is where many people begin to call things unfinishable. These are often films that people may turn off or only watch once. Themes like cannibalism, the death of children, and body horror are prominent in this tier. Examples include... and My Chan's Daily Life. Tier 5 begins the unwatchable category. Depictions of torture, death, and sexual violence make up the bulk of the viewing time in most of these films.

War and human on human violence are core themes, along with the idea of taboos being pushed to the limits of what audiences believe should be created, let alone even watched. Some examples include Salo and Guinea Pig Flower of Flesh and Blood. Finally, at the bottom of our iceberg is Tier 6, and this is the depth below the iceberg itself. These are our darkest, most...

deplorable films that have been on the market legally. These include the works of the imprimously problematic Lucifer Valentine, like Black Metal Veins, and Japanese splatter porn, like Tumbling Doll Flesh. Our goal is to watch as much of the iceberg as possible in this series, but we will be very honest, there are some things that we cannot and will not watch, and we don't recommend that others do so either.

But as tradition on this series, our guests do choose the films we'll watch. So last time Dr. Shock was here, he picked some pretty, dare I say, tame films in comparison to what we'll be watching tonight. We already talked a little bit about

how we got here, how Dr. Shock picked those films, so check out the Lost Volume if you're interested in that. But right now, we're going to dive right back in, and we are starting off hot, or I guess cold, because we're in an iceberg at this point, with Tier 4.

with an infamous film, Men Behind the Sun, 1988. This film follows Japanese troops that round up Chinese and Russian prisoners of war and take them to Unit 731, where they're horribly tortured and experimented on to test new biological weapons. So Susie did sit this one out. I was the brave soldier. I got like 13 minutes in and I was like, nope, not doing this.

Listeners, two out of three of the films we're talking tonight are actually available on YouTube, so watch if you dare. But I was the brave soldier, pun intended, to trudge on for this film. You know, last time we were here, I know Dr. Shockey mentioned that Jay introduced you to Bone Tomahawk. Well, Jay actually introduced me to Men Behind the Sun. Last time he was on the show for episode three, a million years ago. I had no idea that Jay had seen this movie.

Yes. So last time Jay was here, we talked about extreme media and the ethics of watching extreme media. And one of the most problematic pieces of media he had brought up. knowingly was men behind the sun and he brought this up alongside um the other documentary or mockumentary the art of killing so i think um it's an interesting Interesting full circle we have now that you're here, Dr. Shock. I have to say Jay and I have never talked about this movie.

That's crazy. And I've known him for 15 years now. We have never once discussed the movie together. It's so crazy because I've... played that episode back so many times because we uploaded it to youtube and i had to edit the video and everything so i literally can hear jay's voice in my head like saying the synopsis of this film that's how like ingrained it is in my memory wow but so

What is happening in this film? So I'm going to do my best, and then, Dr. Shark, you correct me, because I don't know if you know this about me, but I suck. at history. So I'm going to do my best. This follows World War II? No, it is. It is World War II. Absolutely World War II. Yes. So this is World War Two. This is the Japanese army during World War Two. And this follows the actual. So it's based on history. It is based on true facts where the Japanese troops were.

kidnapping prisoners of war and performing these medical experiments on them one of the biggest critiques of this film men behind the sun is that because it takes it to this extreme exploitative place it does take away sort of the the seriousness of what was actually happening during the war. So from what I've been able to find out through my research, Unit 731 did exist, even if it wasn't called that.

Is that right? I have no idea. You've done more research into the history of this than I have. Okay. I just know that the Japanese were incredibly cruel to the Chinese. And there's also a lot of discourse on this film. There's a lot of discourse on this film, period. But one of the things that I find particularly interesting is like, and this is not a topic for this show, but the way that Japanese culture is now viewed from a Western lens.

is starkly different to the way that they were viewed pre-World War II, which I just think is very interesting because it's almost like Western media has erased Japan's ability. It's the nuance of that culture. in some ways and now we see it at this like consumerism like tech icon rather than you know the ability to you know inflict harm just like any other place but that's a cultural conversation this whole movie is like and like yeah

I turned it off because right at that like 13, 14 minutes, they showed the children and they're hitting the children across the face. And then I like reread the synopsis and I was like, I can't do this. So I'm really curious.

Let me say, Susan, you bailed out at the right moment. because it only gets worse it only gets worse so this film is filmed mockumentary style and the version that i saw was it's a dubbed version on youtube so i will say the dub does take you out of it Pretty starkly. Dr. Shock, did you watch the dubbed version or did you watch the original audio? I have the DVD of this. I figured you would. And it is dubbed.

Oh, it is dubbed. Okay. I think we saw the same version. Okay. So there's some, and then the next question I have for you, is there some text on the screen at points that I assume to be Cantonese?

and it's not at least in the version i was watching on youtube there's no translation of it do you know if you got a translation on screen for anything that was on screen i did not i got the same thing i got the cantonese and i got no translation until the very end uh when there was that scroll and you start to see i got no translation either but I don't know that I needed a lot of translation for this movie.

I know, because usually when it comes to foreign language films, I'm kind of a stickler. I love to watch things in the original audio, and I love to have a full translation of anything on screen, because I think it all plays into the story here. But one of the biggest critiques of men... behind the sun is that there's not a lot of story happening here so basically the the bare bones story we do get is that there's this troop unit 731 that is a military base

kind of in the outskirts of the front lines conducting these experiments. And it's sort of like a hush-hush thing, even within the Japanese military. And we're introduced to this group of young men they look to be. i mean in the movie they look younger than 18 they look like teenagers but i'm assuming they have to be 18 in context of the history but who knows

They're called the Youth Corps. It's these young men who are being enlisted into Unit 731 to participate in basically whatever the leaders want them to do in regards to these experiments. So as Susie mentioned, right off the bat, we get like a lot of displays of physical violence with these kids. So the kids are being abused right from the get go and they start being brainwashed. I think it's the same thing that happened with the Hitler Youth.

You know, it's just nationalism. It's just pride. You know, they're drilling in pride in your country, the way they do it in this movie and where it goes from there. It's just. So we're already in like kind of murky waters here. We know that there are some, we know it's World War II. We know the access of powers going on here. We know there's like not good stuff. But it goes off this very sharp cliff of negative imagery very fast. So one of the first things we see are the crematoriums.

There's a very dark scene where the guy operating the crematorium is like singing and dancing like with human arms and legs. That's where you know you're in for something very extreme. The fact that's not the most extreme scene in the movie. Oh, no.

Oh, no. This is where it just begins. So nothing extreme happens until about 27 minutes into the film. We also don't get a lot of plot, but that's not a lot that happens. That's not uncommon for this film. You're not going to get a lot of substance. No, it's just... It's about experimenting on individuals. They're trying to make it out like they're experimenting for chemical warfare or germ warfare. Yeah, I don't know that I totally buy that, though.

um because of what they're doing it doesn't really lend itself to that at least in this movie the scene with the cat yep they're like oh look A rat can beat a cat. No, a thousand rats can beat a cat. Let's talk about the cat scene and then we'll go into like some of the practical effects in this film and some of the controversial effects of this film. So.

Basically, beyond the 27-minute mark, we begin to see a series of experiments, basically. They happen in rapid succession. There's also a subplot here that's very Boy in Stripe Pajamas-esque, where one of the youth corps... kids essentially befriends a what we assume to be a chinese young mute child and they have another name for them don't they

Yeah, so they keep calling them, I think the word that they use, I mean, again, I'm operating off the dub that I had, Maruta? Yes, that's what I had as well, yes. And I don't know what the actual word is in Japanese or what it means in Japanese, but they're equating it. They use it as a comparison to logs for the fire. So they're equating them to basically.

like nothing like they're they're meant to be used like they're not they're not human beings yeah is what it is they're they're meant to be part of what we you know the experiment It's and it's crazy. And that's where some of the brainwashing begins. So we see a couple experiments and we can start with the cat. We can kind of go because the cat scene. So do you want to talk about that? Like what happens to the cat? Let's just say that.

At the end credits, there could not be no animals were harmed during the making of this movie. So I'm so glad that you mentioned this because I did some research on this film because it is highly sensationalized. So there are two big controversies with this film. One is the cat scene and one is the autopsy scene. And the film has become something of like a chain mail, like haunted letter-esque situation on the internet where everyone is like...

If you look at the YouTube comments, people are arguing back and forth about what's real and what's not real. How did this film get made? It's just crazy to see how people still talk about this film so many years later. So I did some research on the cat and I found that there's actually a movie or a documentary made with the director years following Men Behind the Sun in the international release. And it's a documentary about the making of the film.

And they do talk about both of those controversial scenes. So this is what the director said on paper. If he lied, he lied. But this is what I have. The story is the cat was actually covered in honey and fake blood. So the cat was just being kind of, it was claimed that the cat was just being licked because it was covered in honey. It wasn't actually getting eaten alive. Yeah, I might have to call bullshit.

so in the film obviously the the guards or the admiral whoever the hell he is he throws the cat into a swarm of thousands of thousands of rats and they all appear to be live animals and in the the point of the um scene is that the the cat dies so in this film we have this cat that appears to be eaten alive and he claims that it doesn't so if you call bullshit on the cat dr shock i want to know if you're going to call bullshit on the next one so the autopsy the claim is

that the autopsy was actually a real human body. And the claim was that a child around the same age as the actor featured in the film had died. The police in that town that they were filming needed to perform the autopsy anyway. And the crew actually asked the police to let them use the body. for an on-screen autopsy. And the family of the kid who died agreed to this because they agreed to what the film was trying to show about the atrocities committed against the Chinese.

during this time so they actually let the body be autopsied on screen so the the scene they claim that the doctors in the that scene are actually doctors wearing costumes they're not the actors what are your thoughts on that you know what that's less than the cat scene yeah i i i think that could actually be reality and if that is the truth

How do you feel about that? Like, what are the ethics of that? So even if all of that is true, like if the family did give permission for, you know, the body to be used, is there an ethical implication of actually showing that on screen? And should there be some? in the I don't know the title card or something that says that it's in there that's an actual body well if this movie was made in the 2000s there would be this is a movie from 1980s so they don't give a shit

But do you think, like, I'm really, I'm genuinely curious because this is one of my things that I constantly soapbox on when it comes to extreme media. What do you think? Like, do you think that... If you were to go back in time, like what would you have done? I would have absolutely put something in there. But my God, this movie. I don't even know that the autopsy scene is the most difficult scene to watch. So...

For me, okay, so I would say the autopsy scene, and maybe because I was doing the research in the second tab while I was watching this, it was the most intense for me, followed closely probably by the sonic room scene, the exploding intestines.

that would probably be that kind of stuck with me i actually still been thinking about that yes so if the and that guy seemed like he put on what a hundred pounds yeah so i also read about how they did that so it's actually two this is what they claim two actors.

One in the beginning shot and one in the second shot where the body is visibly larger. And the intestine is actually an animal intestine that was laid under the actor and they blew air through the intestine to give the... illusion of it blowing out through the the anal cavity yeah i i can see that yeah i'm hoping that was not a real scene it wasn't a real snuff film but so

If the autopsy wasn't the most extreme for you, do you think it was that scene or was it another one? I don't know. For some reason, that scene with the cat disturbed me. And then the fact that the rats... burned just to pull the curtain back a bit i was watching this movie and my son walked in now my son is he loves Japanese culture. He is so big into Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh and all that other stuff. And he was watching this and he's like, those rats are really burning. I'm like, Oh yeah.

No doubt. Those rats are really burning. He is the one who pointed out to me. He said, you know what? During World War II, the Japanese, they were really bastards. I'm like, yeah, well, that's what this movie is laying out. And he's like, do you know the whole idea, like the whole concept of how much water is part of the human body? Like they say that the human body is like 80% water, 85% water, whatever. He said it was the Japanese during World War II who came up with that.

actually took a human weighed him then turned him into human jerky and weighed him again and that's how they came up with the concept of how much water is in the human body that is a japanese World War II conception. And that doesn't surprise me based on the fact that this film is based, at least what the film is describing is based on real life. But that's not the...

So obviously this is a, well, I'm sure some parts of it are a dramatized account of the film or of the history, I should say. I would hope so. Right, right. So in terms of like for closing thoughts on this. I'm not sure if we've talked about this in the past, Dr. Shock, but have you seen threads and come and see? I've seen threads. You're talking about the UK. Yep, that's the one. Yeah, I've seen threads, yes.

come and see oh the russian yeah i i think that's i think that's one of the best russian movies ever made to be honest with you and it's very difficult to sit through yeah so the reason why i bring up those two films is because those are the two films we featured earlier on in the iceberg series that i think are some of the most extreme films i've ever seen but i do think that they were good watches i do think they were good watches i'd recommend

men for people to watch them and i think what separates these those two films from men behind the sun is that threads and come and see

have incredible storytelling and incredible heart when it comes to the narrative of war and what is happening here and the people who are involved. And I think Men Behind the Sun has none of that. We don't learn about the history. We don't learn about the... people involved and it loses believability in a way for me it becomes like sort of a haunted house joke is what i feel like i'm looking at at times when i'm looking at this film so

I would not recommend that any person watch Men Behind the Sun just because you're not going to gain anything from this unless you're like a practical effects guru and you want to study this as some form of like, I don't know, homework. on how to do some practical effects, I don't think there's anything worth watching in this film. But what do you think, Dr. Shock? Any closing thoughts on this one? I can't really argue with you.

So from what I'm hearing and the way you guys described this, this almost seems like gratuitous, a gratuitous movie and not at all like artistic. Am I off base there? No, I think that's very true. I think it might be spot on. Sometimes Japanese cinema is just extreme for being extreme.

that's exactly what i was going to say because when we think about some of the stuff on this iceberg when we think about there's literally a genre called japanese splatter porn like i think right that's that's just the And that's just so interesting. And we did an episode on East Asian horror many moons ago where like Kelvin, who is a friend of ours from Hong Kong, like actually talked about this on how like the reason why.

like horror films are so extreme in east asia it has a lot to do with like the restrictions that are perceived by the people who live there on their culture which is just so freaking interesting but i mean closing thoughts on men behind the sun is that i would not recommend it of of any of the stuff that we've watched like if you want to watch a war film that's depraved like watch come and see and you'll actually get something out of it yeah i would i would be with you 100

Watch Come and See before you watch Men Behind the Sun. I chose this one for this episode strictly because I had not seen it before. So Susie, you want to take us into tier five? I don't know how we can get much darker and more than this. I don't know either. We're moving on to tier five. And from what you two described, it seems like yours might be a little bit more depraved than the one we're talking about next.

Yes, I agree 100%. Oh, great. Man bites dog. And that's from 1992. A film crew follows a ruthless thief and heartless killer. as he goes about his daily routine. But complications set in when the film crew lose their objectivity and begin lending a hand. So what I found really interesting about this movie is... First of all, it's in black and white. And Dr. Shock, the last time you were on the show, you told us how hard it is to get a movie to be made in black and white.

And if this movie had been made in color, I don't think it would have worked. And I was looking up the directors and the writers. And the directors and writers are actually the people starring in the movie. And I'm not going to try and... say their names if you want to go on imdb but they

are the cameraman they are the sound guy and our lead serial killer so basically this camera crew is making this documentary so this is a mockumentary style film and they're following this man benoit he just goes about his serial killer routine and he is just killing people left and right and the phrase man bites dog is a shortened version of an aphorism in journalism that describes how an unusual infrequent event such as a man biting dog is more likely to be reported

news than an ordinary event like a dog biting a man so it just fits so well with what this movie is about the film crew is reporting on this serial killer which is not an everyday event but they're making it newsworthy in this mockumentary style the film Begins with the movie crew in full swing and this is fascinating to me because we don't even know why they're making this movie

who found who or anything about the movie crew. We're just like thrown into this movie. Like, what is this about? And then you see this filming of a murder. Yeah. Well, that's the whole film. It literally is the entire film. You watch this guy killing other people. And we don't even learn much about the crew throughout the film, but we find out a lot about Benoit, the lead serial killer, because as this mockumentary is going on, they're filming him doing these grotesque, depraved murders along.

these little snippets of his daily life and they're like happy little snippets like Benoit at his parents store interacting with customers visiting his grandfather in the hospital like these really wholesome moments someone's life and then you've got this entire alternate persona and alternate life of benoit being a serial killer this doesn't seem like it would fit as like a really good movie but

I thought it was kind of brilliant. It's a 7.4 with 45,000 views on IMDb, and I really think it earns that rating.

No, I'm with you. I think it does as well. What I loved about this is the fact that you have this film crew following this guy watching him as a serial killer. Oh, my God. The scene with the old woman where he just screams. Which was like, hey, I walked in there and I saw that she had this medicine.

So he sees that she's got this heart medicine. So instead of like killing her with a knife or a gun, he just screams at her so hard. So his, her heart will stop. And this kind of goes into the kind of character Benoit is. He is smart.

He's articulate. He knows a little bit about everything. There's a scene where they're chasing a victim through an old factory. And he's talking about the mating activities of pigeons and how their feathers have a greasy film on them because it's a scent that they look.

and their mates with and you know I don't even know if that was the truth but Benoit is so believable and he's just this very articulate boisterous man that you can you can see him just like leading an everyday life as kind of this this kind of over over the top guy but also him being a serial killer didn't not make sense as well right he's he's it's funny because he's a very likable character until you realize what he's up to

Susie, how would you compare this to the other serial killer film we watched, Henry the Serial Killer? Henry Portrait of the Serial Killer? Yeah, that's a really tough film. This one is not at all near the extremeness of that. And this is almost like a comedy. It's like a black comedy with some very extreme scenes sprinkled in.

The comedic element of this kind of lessens the whole impact of the film. So, for instance, there's this one scene where it's a disgusting scene. He's killing... uh black man and as he's killing him he's like oh wait wait wait pull down his pants i heard that black men are like really hung and it's just like so out of the realm of like

i can't believe he's saying that to like he is saying that and he just killed him which adds this layer of dark comedy because that's what dark comedy is it's not like something funny for like laughing haha sake it's something like i can't believe they're juxtaposing this murder scene with talking about somebody's penis

Yeah, so the dark humor is almost tongue-in-cheek, and it just fits with the rest of the film's absurdity. So every time I feel like Benoit was killing somebody, he was also kind of making a joke about it. It just was so absurd. So I'm reading the, I didn't watch this, obviously, listeners, by my lack of commentary. So the character's name is Ben, but the actor's name is Benoit.

when they say it in french yeah and it's benoit they all have their same names in the film as they do in their real lives which is almost funny because it plays up this mockumentary style you know the Blair Witch Project how those were like real people but these actually are real people in real life

This is like such a surreal film. Further into the film, the dynamic between the crew and the murdering shifts a bit. And Remy, who's the director of the mockumentary, begins partaking in the murdering. And some scenes that really... stuck out are like when Remy makes this shift as to like in the beginning we see him as like a very compassionate empathetic

person and then as he spends more time with Benoit he kind of is almost like brainwashed by Benoit but also like brainwashed by the success of this movie can make them and he starts helping out in the murders and then he eventually partakes in some of the really extreme murders so there's this one scene that really sticks out and it's christmas morning maybe And the film crew and Benoit go into this apartment of this young couple, and they rape the woman, and they...

completely decimate her like her intestines are hanging out all over the place and then they make the husband watch everything but it's like juxtaposed against this Christmas tree and tinsel and The whole thing was just really surreal. And it seems like that, that are sprinkled throughout this movie that make it really extreme. Dr. Shock, what do you, you're quiet over there and you're not usually quiet.

I think this movie deserves its ranking. As I was watching, I kept thinking of Behind the Mask, you know, the Leslie Vernon film. Yes. I think that movie was absolutely inspired by this movie, but this one I think is much more disturbing because whereas the rise of Leslie Vernon. is a movie about someone who's becoming like Jason Voorhees or Michael Myers. This is a guy who's becoming like Henry of Portrait of a Serial Killer.

This is a guy who could really exist as opposed to, you know, behind the mask where you're dealing with a, a 80 slasher villain. As opposed to an actual serial killer. And this guy, this guy is so charismatic. If you met him on the street, you would like this guy. And it would cost you your life.

but he was also like pretty non-specific about who he went after and he doesn't even really have like a method to his madness he mostly goes for like lower middle class maybe even like below that because he knows they keep all their money like under their mattress or on their cabinet or in their fridge and he steers clear of some of the more wealthy houses because like they all have credit

cards so he does have like a little bit of method to his madness but he's so sloppy in the way he does things he doesn't plan anything out he's like okay let's go kill somebody today yeah exactly and and and that's the whole thing and the fact that this film crew is following him and recording all of this I mean, there's a scene where one of the film crew ends up dying. Yeah, he gets shot in this like chase scene and he ends up becoming a victim. And what do they do? They just.

keep on going on with the filming they just keep on going right exactly The scene I always think about in this movie is when the main character is walking with the, I guess it would be the director. And he's like, he talks about his breath. Oh, yeah. Yeah, they're walking next to each other. He's like, why does your breath always stink so bad? And you're standing right under my nose. Don't you have any respect? I'm like, that's what you're getting mad at? Really?

That's that black comedy coming in again. It really is. No, I think this is a very disturbing film. And the film ends in a way that it's, I feel like it has a satisfying ending. I do think this is a film that. If you are a lover of film and you're a critic, you should watch this. It's not going to be for the everyday audience, but it is a really interesting mockumentary meta style movie that I think earns its right.

being on this list and being on probably like a greatest film list just because it is so different and creative but like the ending I'm not gonna spoil it but it is a satisfying ending no i agree with you i think it's a great ending i mean i didn't think we'd be able to top that but

For the first time in the realm of the series so far, we are officially getting to tier six. We are here. We're at the bottom of the iceberg. And who better? bad to have dr shock with us for this for this grand adventure so last but not least for the bottom of the iceberg below the iceberg technically we have begotten from 1989 there's also a couple different release dates on this film across the internet but it's all the same film

This is the IMDb. Presented in a surreal, gory, and entirely visual manner. Begotten tells the death of religion, the abuse of nature by man, and a nihilistic outlook on what life ultimately is. So this is real interesting. You can also find this one on YouTube. This is quite something.

Y'all think we've reviewed some art house shit on this show before? This is art house. This is art house. We're in the house with the art right now watching this because it doesn't get more than this. This is a black and white... I don't want to call it a film because it's not even... It really is like art. It's an art piece. It's like a nightmare. Yeah. So we have a black and white visual art piece, basically. And it follows basically...

There's no words in the entire film. There's only sound. There's like some crickets and some like ambiance throughout the entirety of the hour and 20 minute run. And we have what we so the whole. It's like so hard to describe what's even happening because you can't really see what's happening most of the film. So you're shown images of things.

And they're very grainy and that's on purpose and it's black and white. So you're relying on like the contrast of the black and white colors to kind of tell you what's going on. Like, you know, you're, you're looking at some. You're looking at something gross. You know you're looking at a human, but you're not quite sure what is exactly happening here. And I don't know.

I wouldn't go as far as to say this is a masterpiece, but I do think that there's some brilliance in that, right? Is that when you're working in the horror space and you're relying on the viewer to basically make their own story about what they're looking at.

It really plays with that idea of what audiences actually think are scary. One of the notes I have here is that it's like a fucked up Rorschach test because it could be anything. We're looking at anything. Could you imagine, though, if this had been in color? Oh, well, I actually think it being in color would have ruined it. Oh, yeah. In color and, like, focused.

yeah well it's 16 millimeter it was 16 millimeter that was shot on so it's we all we have the thing opens our story opens and we see someone in a chair We are told in the credits that this is God. I'm going to try to stay serious here. The whole movie is the creation theory. But is it the Greek god? Is it the Roman god? Is it the Christian god? It's a weird god in a mask vomiting something.

Yes, that leads me to believe that it might be like the Greek God. Maybe, and he's cutting himself off a lot. Right. And then from there, we led to believe that he kills himself. Well, before being jacked off. Oh, I missed a pretty important part. Go on, Dr. Shock. He's jacked off.

it's just it's so ridiculous to say it out loud um we lost lonely i muted when my screen went completely black so i manually muted my mic like on my actual mic because i didn't want to like interrupt whatever was happening all right well what was happening was we were talking about how god killed himself but right before that he was jacked off oh yes of course how could we forget so but didn't he killed himself and then

was the post-mortem ejaculation. Yeah, I think he might have been jacked off after he was killed, yes. Get your facts straight, Dr. Shock. I know, there's a lot going on to keep track of.

So, we have... Did we already talk about who... So, a woman is birthed out of his intestines? We covered that? No, not yet. Go for that. Not yet, no. Go for it, yeah. Well, so, God... the character of god i feel you know i'm not even it's that catholic guilt i'm like i'm feeling guilty like saying these things god um stabs himself multiple times and out of his intestines emerges mother earth and

Then Mother Earth jacks off the guy. And then she takes his semen and impregnates herself. And she gives birth to... the son of earth or the son of man or something. And that begins the first part of the story. So we are now following the sun. So God is gone and the, the sun now becomes our main character. for the rest of this film. He's a full-grown man, but there's something wrong with him. Unclear what. But he can't walk or talk or do anything.

And then he meets a band of nomads, I guess we'll call them. And Susie, you want to talk about what happens from there? They're not very nice to him. Any elaboration? from the audience are these the people that have the sticks and they're like beating him and like hitting him in the groin or is that yeah that's after they drag him by his intestines across the desert

And he's got this very, like, almost his face almost looks like it's like cracked sand or cracked earth. And they are pretty much torturing him for, I'd say, like a half hour of the movie. And the intestines are like these long rope like things. And then they have these like staffs and they just start beating him. And that, if I remember, it's a pretty long scene. Yeah. So this happens multiple times.

that's and then mother earth eventually um so they she spares him during one of his scenes of torture and and saves him basically and then the cycle begins again they begin getting beat again by these nomads these people in cloaks and eventually they also after turning on the son of the earth they also turn on mother earth and there is a very

And this is where I think this whole Rorschach test mentality starts to get really fucking interesting. Because we are to assume this is some sort of rape scene, right? Yes. And I took it, like, symbolically as, like, men destroying Earth. Like, we were playing on the planet. Well, yeah. Well, yeah, we're getting to the symbolism in a second, but, like, on the, like, you...

We're watching what assumes to be a rape scene, but it's not exactly that either. We're not shown a traditional rape scene. We're made to put that together based on the body movements. And what we can see. And the point of view, the camera point of view is really important in these scenes. Yeah. So they are, we are shown, we are shown like genitals basically. Yeah. But it's very obscured. There's something very. Pornographic about this. And not like. Pornhub. No. Like snuff film.

Like, yeah, like something very wrong about the way this looks at some points. Like we the note I have on this is. There's something strangely pornographic about this. It feels like we shouldn't be watching it. That's how it feels when you're watching this. And then eventually everybody dies. Everybody dies. Mother Earth dies. The son of Earth dies. And then we see a cloaked figure at the close of the film who looks suspiciously like God. So we are to assume the cycle begins again.

So Susan, you've started hinting at this. And obviously the IMDb does as well. So there's this idea that this is talking about the desecration of the Earth. So do you want to speak a little bit about that?

There's one scene towards the end of the movie where the people who are inflicting violence on... the sun of earth they they are gathering different things where i think they were body parts in my notes i i wrote like they looked like genitals and they looked like skin and they're collecting it and like grinding it all down

and i was trying to like find some symbolism in that to go with my theory of as long as people are on this earth we're just going to keep destroying it and it might be cyclical as well but this was a very hard film to

get any kind of like deep deeper than that meaning from unless i completely missed yeah i mean and then i was doing some research on this so this is a part of a trilogy you have dr shop have you watched any of the other parts of the trilogy? No, I have not. And they're very far apart as well. Like one is in the 2000s and then one was, I want to say, within the last six years or so. And they follow the same. What are the titles of the trilogies?

Let me tell you right now. So there's two other short films and they're written by the same group of people. So it's like a true trilogy. So the sequel is called The Din of the Celestial Birds. No, I've not seen that. And then the third one that was made in 2006. And then the last one is called Polya and Blastema, a cosmic opera from 2022. No. I don't think I'll be watching them after this. No, I don't think I will either. These films are described as avant-garde cult films.

I mean, clearly we've gotten to the root of like what's extreme about this is that there's something strange going on here about what's on the screen. But Susie, do you consider this to be extreme though? Like it's definitely art.

how something but is it extreme i don't think this is extreme in the the place well i guess that's a question we'll get into later about whether or not it deserves to be on tier six i thought it was so artistic that it removed the viewer so much from what was actually happening in the plot that there's this like just divide of and yeah i agree this is not approachable at all for any viewer so i will say i don't know context

No, the context I've been able to provide you on this is from the research that I've had to do after finishing the film because I had no fucking idea what I was looking at physically, not even in a... like i don't know what i just watched kind of way like in a i have no idea what i'm looking at on the screen and i had to i ended up watching this at a certain part at like two point speed like times two because i like

I just couldn't figure out what the hell was going on here. So, Dr. Shock, where do you weigh in here? Do you think this is actually extreme? No. As a matter of fact, this is one of the things I wanted to talk about. Honestly, I think... Men Behind the Sun is much more extreme than this film. I agree. Would you say that it's more extreme than Man Bites Dog?

I don't. I think Man Bites Dog is more extreme than this film. I would put this one two levels above that. I would put this on level three and I would put uh man bites dog on level two and i would put men behind the sun on level one

Okay, so that gets into our next question about would we be switching anything around here? Lonely, I'm going to give you the same question you just gave Dr. Shock. Like, where would you put this on the... tiered list even from like many moons ago episode when we did the first part of this the tiers one yeah so i think do i think it's

Maybe I, because we haven't watched a lot on tier, we haven't watched anything else on tier six, so I have nothing else to compare it to in terms of like, what is the bottom of the barrel here? I don't think this belongs on tier six.

But with that being said, I do think this is fucked up. Oh, it's definitely fucked up. Yeah. I think for certain people, I'm sure watching this would be really... really creepy so i'm gonna say maybe a four so i'd move it up two levels i put i would say that men behind the sun come and see threads

um from what you guys have described man bites dog um henry portrait of the serial killer i would put all of these as more extreme than begotten but the one other thing i wanted to ask you both on this film before we close out for the night is As I was doing the research on this film, a lot of people compared the storyline, what resembles a storyline, and began to the storyline of Mother.

oh yeah absolutely i would agree with that 100 yes except the mother was a little bit easier to follow and you also had that that visceral feeling watching mother i feel like was a little bit more intense actually than this one i think mother was also more accessible oh yes you know Yeah, and the way it was shot. And I got to say, Elias Merahig, the director of this movie, made one of my favorite movies of 2000 and one of my all-time favorite films.

Shadow of the Vampire. Oh, I know you like that film. And it seems so crazy that it's the same guy. Yeah, it really does. It's like this was his art house film. And then from there he got to make, um, shadow of the vampire. Right.

we've done it you officially made it to the bottom of the iceberg and at the time of recording and you know what i i'm kind of proud that i'm the one who got there you brought us down there who got us down there but It's not a movie that belongs there. Thank you. Thank you for dipping our toes into tier six in this way. I know. Just out of curiosity, I want to just list some of the other big name films on tier.

six dr shock and you tell us if you have any recommendations of where we should go next sure so some ones that i recognize are playground tumbling doll of flesh black metal veins and red room familiar with any of them i have not seen any of them so the ones that i wonder are a dear zachary a letter to a son about his father uh how that would fit in with this because i think that is the only one i oh and solo solo is also on here they're both on tier five oh my gosh

Is Salo on tier five? It is. Yeah, so Salo is at the bottom. Okay. All right. Salo absolutely belongs on the bottom. The bottom of every list. Yes. You know what film and so we are actually using an adapted version of the iceberg. So there are some like we took out some deplorable shit here. So. I'm looking at, like, for example, Serbian film is not on our list. Which is weird because I feel like that one isn't even as bad as Sallow.

Those are like almost hand in hand the same. Okay. And you've seen the Serbian film? Yes. Because I have not. And by choice. If you could get through Sala, you can get through the Serbian film. I mean, I definitely fast forwarded the scenes, but I know what happens. All right.

i'm not saying i'm going to take your word for it okay you can fast forward you know exactly what's happening because it has a plot and they describe it i've heard uh the plot laid out for me yeah so if you just do a little fast forwarding you don't really have to see the stuff but i think imagining is almost worse wow okay now that we've reached the the

end of our journey with dr shock susie have you prepared any deep cuts for us on this segment of the iceberg i do i have a couple deep cuts and the first one is you know In this episode, we talked about Bone Tomahawk and it had some Stone Age characters and troglodytes. So I brought in a Stone Age character horror movie that is deep cuts. It's Out of the Darkness from 2022.

in the old stone age a desperate gang of early humans band together in search of new land but when they suspect a malevolent mystical being is hunting them down the clan are forced to confront a danger they never envisioned so this would definitely be like a tier two just because some of the brutal ways that the characters meet their demise it's fully shown on the screen you see entrails you see

things that you probably won't be able to forget and it's not a terrible movie i wouldn't say it's amazing but i watched it enjoyed it all right so maybe we won't be making it to many of the tier six list because dave is probably one of the only people brave enough to come on here and talk with us about these depraved films this was a blast i i had a great time and To be honest with you, I think for me personally, I think Men Behind the Sun is a tier six. Okay. And I would put Begotten.

at least a tier five, maybe tier four, based on the movies that I selected that we watched today. I think Men Behind the Sun is a tier six film. And Lonely, I know you've watched this one as well. What are your thoughts on that? You know, I kind of... I don't even know. I'm really confused as to what Tier 6 actually is going to be. I think Begotten has skewed what I actually thought Tier 6 is going to be. Out of the films we watched tonight...

100 percent do think men behind the sun was the most extreme but we've also discussed that men behind the sun is what we call you know that japanese splatter porn basically so it's it's got that splatter I think what I'm going to expect from a tier six is not only the splatter, but also something that's going to like punch me in the face with.

storyline or some meaning or some weight. And though Men Behind the Sun did deliver the extreme gore and the extreme visuals, I don't think it delivered the level of an extreme story. as come and see did but what that means that i don't think i was just gonna say i think with what you're saying come and see might be um your more of your definition of a level six

Yeah, I think, Susie, you might probably agree with Threads as well, being closer to a six. Yeah, and I'm very happy I chose not to watch Come and See or...

The men behind the sun. I chose right. Well, Susie, I will support you in not seeing men behind the sun, but I think you kind of have to see, come and see. Well, Dr. Shock, we always love having you on the show. You just know so much about movies and you have some great recommendations. When you're not here talking about tier six horror films with us, where can the listeners find you and more of your work?

They can find me over at DVDinfatuation.com. That is my blog. I've hit 3,000 reviews and I have a few more. plan from that point forward. Depends on when this episode posts as to whether or not there will be other reviews on there. They can hear me on Land of the Creeps. which you can find at land of the creeps dot blogspot.com or on any of your podcast catchers, I guess, where Greg.

Greg, Greg Amortis, Pearl and Bill the Butcher and I talk about the horror films. Jay the Dead's new horror movies. where Jay and myself and eight other co-hosts are always talking about horror. Uh, the DVD infatuation podcast, which you can find on the considering the cinema feed. as well as another podcast I've been doing recently, which is the weekly watch list where J of the dead, which is Jason piles and Mac count macula.

who is a Mac Robbins and myself get together. And we talk about the movies that we've been watching recently. You are all over the place. Yeah, I really am. Honestly, when I am a guest on a podcast, the part I hate is give your plugs. Because I know I'm going to forget something.

Well, I don't really have any plugs to give because I'm nowhere. But I know I might be marking my calendar to figure out which is the next full moon. So I can finally get that glass of water underneath there to give me that special moon energy. But if I'm not doing that, I'm at Instagram at projectile underscore underscore environment. And you can find my horror reviews and rants for lonely souls over on Instagram at lonely horror club. I try to post reviews whenever I can.

and cause problems on filmstagram whenever possible you can also find my writing on my website lonelyhorrorclub.com thank you dear internet for tuning in to episode 68 of nobodies as always sources additional reading and all that fun stuff will be in our show notes. As always, our iceberg will also be in the show notes so you won't lose it and have the incorrect copy like Susie.

I promise it'll be in there. It'll be on Instagram as well. And make sure to give us a call if you want to be the next person to venture into tier six. Give us a call. Leave us a message. You can call us at 617-431-4322 and keep up with our antics on Instagram at nobody's horror podcast. And last but especially not least, we would love if you could like, subscribe, or leave a review wherever. you get your podcasts.

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