Episode 56: Extreme Horror Iceberg Volume Two

Hello internet and welcome to Nobodies, the horror content podcast where we clean up the ugly things so you don't have to. Our bi-weekly show features two hosts and rotating guest content experts tackling the nitty-gritty complex horror topics with the hope of making the genre more approachable for frequent flyers and newbies alike.

The goal of this show is to highlight diverse voices and perspectives in horror. This is your reminder there may be discourse on this show that will challenge the way you look at the genre. So let's get ready to get ugly. LOL, that's still me. I'm the ghost with the vlog, lonely, and I'm joined by my co-host and partner in crime. Hey, I'm Susie, aka Projectile Vermint.

do you see how i tried to be like really peppy in our intro tonight because i know what we're about to get into i know and before we get into depravity once more i need to share the tragedy that that befell me this evening susie i have to tell the listeners i just have to so there's been a tragedy in in the lonely home we we're mourning the loss of my electric tea kettle don't worry i'll cope i'll cope but it is truly a loss

And if you've recorded with us ever, you know why this electric tea kettle is so important to me. Before we start every episode, she's like, hang on. And then you hear like a clink, clink, clink of like a spoon hitting. And she's like, I just need to take my sip. And it's like. And Susie edits it out for all of you except for the people who get to record with us in real time. You get to hear my beautiful sipping.

But there shall be no sipping this evening. And you know what? It really sets the tone for what we're about to talk about because we are back.

We are back with the second edition of our Extreme Horror Iceberg series. And we have, we've brought back the one and only, the one person who would set us out on this journey. Susie, who is back with us this evening? So even though Libby... just destroyed us a couple weeks ago we decided to have them back on the show so that we can continue going down the tiers of the iceberg deeper and deeper into our demise but before we start talking about films let's talk

about like why we even need extreme horror films. The importance of any extreme genre classification is about freedom of speech, fighting censorship, the allowance of open thought. examination of the taboo, exploration of the societal other. And horror has always been kind of political in a way. And these films can push the boundaries in a controversial ways with depictions of challenging themes with shocking imagery or visuals.

But as art is here to reflect aspects of society that can sometimes be extremely hard to look at. And that said, I don't always like it or respect it, but I stand with an artist too. make the art that they want to make as long as it's consensual yeah you make an excellent point Libby because honestly it's this is where when you were talking I was thinking about you know some of the discussions that I've come about

with extreme media and what goes goes on behind the scenes and where are the lines of exploitation in particular i'm thinking about the film megan is missing which again surprise that's not on the iceberg but there are some thoughts and feelings on the internet because the actresses who play the girls in that film are so young, people debate whether or not it's actually sexual.

exploitation of children so you make a great point and like where like these are the hard values we have to have but where do we draw the lines in film and there are just like we see the themes of war particularly in this iceberg there are a lot of other themes i think we see

So what do you think about that? What commonalities or themes do you see in this general subgenre? Yeah, well, I actually made a list here in my notes of some different themes. terms that are associated with extreme cinema um so let me pull that up really quick okay so censorship in art uh glorifying violence gore taboo subject matter, torture, humiliation, sex and violence, cannibalism, cadavers and what not to do with them, aka necrophilia, coprophilia, coprophagia, pedophilia.

Graphic depictions, sexual assault, incest, perversion, shock value, ultra-violent realism, excessive violence, cruelty, depravity, transgression. exploitative themes, controversial themes, subverting expectations, juxtaposition of morals and integrity in difficult situations. Those were a bunch of, that's what I came up with.

You did our homework for us. You did the hard part. I agree. I agree. That's usually where I have to come in and cue it in. But you did all the hard stuff, Libby. And, you know, I was thinking the same thing even just getting through this first watch list. After you've seen one. I don't want to say it feels like you've seen them all, but there are really clear examples that come through in a lot of these films, particularly when we get into the films.

I know I keep mentioning war, but that was like a really big theme in this particular subset. So you start to see the same rhetoric coming through in each of these films. Susie, anything you wanted to add here on some of the commonalities between these? I think that we're going to see a lot of the same themes in them because, I mean, how much more extreme can you go?

Sometimes directors are just trying to do things for shock value and do it even more shocking because if you make a film that is just like another film and the one thing that will set it apart is make it a little bit more extreme, they're going to do it. don't like it i don't i don't condone that but it is what it is

So we will see these themes tonight because believe it or not, we are going deeper into the iceberg. We are going closer to the bottom and we are getting into the really heavy stuff that kept me up for several days. So really excited for that.

So we're returning to our scuba diving, spelunking. I don't know if it can be considered spelunking if we're in the water, but we're diving. We're diving into the iceberg again. And here's a reminder of our tears. There are six tears on the iceberg. The link to our iceberg will be included in the show notes and also on Instagram if you want to take a visual look. Tier 1 is the tip of our iceberg. These are films that most horror fans have already seen. Thinking about more...

jump scare, mild gore, things like Psycho and The Exorcist. We won't be including any of these films from tier one on this series because this is actually content we feature on most other episodes. During Tier 2, we begin to journey underwater. We see more gore, more violence in this tier. Examples include hereditary and hostile. Tier 3 is the halfway point of our journey. We are beginning to taste the depravity.

We are being pushed to our limits. There is body horror, there is gore, and there is sexual violence. And the biggest thing that changes here is that there are more depictions on screen for a longer period of time some examples include last house on the left and the house that jack built tier four these are where people call these films unfinishable films that people turn off or may only watch once

We see things like cannibalism, the death of children, and body horror. Examples include Antichrist and My John's Daily Life. Tier 5 is where we get unwatchable. We're thinking about things like torture, death, sexual violence, war, human-on-human violence, and things that are very taboo. Leaving audiences wonder if they should have even been made at all. Examples include Salo and Guinea Pig Flower of Fush and Blood.

Last but not least is tier six. This is below the iceberg itself, the darkest, most deplorable media we can ever consume legally. And these include the works of the infamous Lucifer Valentine and the subgenre. of japanese splatter porn like tumbling doll flush and tonight we are getting a little bit deeper we are starting back off on tier four so geez if you were here last time with us what i said i can't wait

Oh, I thought you said and wait. I'm like, wait for what? Is it get worse? Is there a surprise? I'm like, if you were here with us last time, Libby gave us a taste of the depravity. We talked about some... tier two and tier three films and now we are just going even deeper I don't know how it can get worse than threads, but it can. So Susie, can you take us into the first film of the evening that I only saw 20 minutes of? Absolutely. Can't wait to talk about Calvert from 2004.

I wrote a little synopsis for this one. Self-centered Mark Stevens, D-tier musician, lounge singer, is on this senior center circuit tour at a Christmas time in a rural area. He's not quite living that hashtag van life, but he is certainly living in his van, which breaks down between shows and a nasty storm leaving him stranded in the woods near a local village.

Mark meets Boris, ever looking for his lost dog, who points him toward an inn run by Mr. Bartell where he can take refuge for the night. so this film screams french extremity and why you ask because The scenery is so French extremity. The French countryside, we see that in, I think, martyrs. We definitely see it in frontiers and even in RAW, too.

Also, the pacing is so much French extremity. It's very intense with these scenes followed by like little lulls. And I think those lulls are there to help you. regain your footing, maybe take a break. And they're also very arthouse in a way. So, and because this is a French extremity film, we know there's going to be no holding back. We've got a little of...

everything in this one we have people having relationships with animals we've got some gang rape delusional psychosis this movie was all over the place libby why did you pick this one Yeah, so Calvert, I picked because I felt like it was maybe a little bit lesser known of the catalog in the New French Extremity, which it's, you know.

Falls right into like you mentioned with those other examples that you said, but I picked it because it sort of it's kind of goes against the grain of the sort of typical horror film. things so um like the fact that there's not a female in sight there's no women in this movie um that the violence is happening to a man and by men but i will let Can we just talk about your point about this film just being about men and violence happening against men, by men?

And I was just thinking about the question of identity and the fact that there is all these men in this. movie and could it be it's like different versions of the same character almost like in high tension which is also fringe extremity something i was thinking about when you were you're talking about men and identity lonely

Step in here. So I'll be honest. I only got I got up to the cow and then I was like, you know what? This is as far as I'm going. I'm only going as far as the cow. It's a cow, right? That he has sex with a cow. Yeah. there's no yeah you know what if it's almost as if they're treating each other the way a female character would have been treated in this storyline if that makes sense And could it even be like the different versions of men? Like the different. Or which takes us back to the A24.

men movie men you know and whether should that be on the iceberg no just kidding but Susie tell us some of the so I only got up to the cow which that was my limit on the extreme horror in this

this segment was the sex with the cow. What other extreme horror do you think stands out to make this a tier four in this movie? The entire storyline, which... goes back to the point we talked about a couple weeks ago on whether gore or the extreme like plot like which one of those makes it extreme and i think the plot in this case is pretty disgusting i mean we've got this this man boris who's talks about his wife being terrible and she was sleeping around but then he kidnaps this traveling

This traveling mark and makes him play his wife. We have men who come in and they rape her, but it's actually him. Just incredibly... messed up this movie just really made you feel weird yeah it's everything is so awkward throughout the film just all the people are just it's

It's cringy and it's awkward and it just leaves you like, what? And then it has scenes like that next to scenes with... men dancing in a pub but dancing very like awkward. There's this one scene where there's this really strange music being played on the piano and then all the men in the pub start dancing with each other.

And yes, that that bar scene you're talking about. Wow. That was to me. OK, this is maybe a little bit of a tangent, but it was sort of reminiscent of Deliverance with the musical number. Part, it's kind of a contrast, really, because what they're showing us, you know, again, it's kind of that sort of vilification of these rural communities kind of theme that was happening in Eden Lake. We talked about before that's sort of coming up here as well.

So this music that they play in this film, it's discordant, it's very chromatic, it's modern, but it's also regressive in a way, meaning it's kind of... becoming it's less advanced it's kind of a return to a less developed state it's following a chordal structure that doesn't really make any sense it's got this weird

chromatic repetitive melody melody so here's the contrast here's where i'm going with the deliverance theme here because in deliverance you have the very famous song dueling banjos which actually follows kind of all the rules of music. So where Calvair is breaking all these rules of music, Deliverance actually follows all the rules of music and shows this kind of masterful complexity of a...

where I thought it was an interesting contrast because we're showing this sort of country folk where they're actually doing this... in deliverance they're doing this very technical thing that's actually quite challenging the the song the dueling banjos they kind of go into a blisteringly fast complicated musical number there whereas this one is kind of plunky and you know almost like just throw your hands down on the piano and see whatever keys you hit

kind of a kind of a thing but it's a song that they all can relate to like all the townsfolk as soon as the guy gets up and starts playing the piano part you know The people get up and like you said, they all these men, there's only men anywhere all throughout this movie. And they just start dancing around the bar with each other and having this kind of community.

happening which is kind of beautiful and it's also kind of hilarious and it's one of those areas where it really jumps into kind of an absurdist tone i'm not always sure that the absurdist parts work for me personally i i think that without that this movie would be so horrible and dark and hard to watch so maybe that's needed to kind of balance it out a little bit

did you notice that that there is no music or really sound anywhere just like in the nightingale in this movie other than that piano scene absolutely yeah it's just it's all diegetic sound which i which i love the only music you get you get the music in the beginning which is piped out of the speakers in the old folks home then you've got the acapella singing like there's a part where mr bartell asks

or maybe makes him kind of sing us sing us a verse and you know so you have some acapella singing and then you have the bar scene where there's the piano and the community the community music happening but yeah you're right no it's it's really primarily uh diegetic sound all throughout and i think it really adds to like if you're taking everything away that could you know like

muddy not even muddy but like muffle almost what you're seeing because like you can't focus on the sound you can't focus on anything else you're just focusing on the plot and what is going on right in front of you This film is shocking, it's disturbing, it's nihilistic, it's bleak, it's depressing. It could be considered Christmas horror for those people who are looking for holiday horror movie events. I mean, if you want a real, real...

Black Christmas, give this one a try. And that is definitely why Calvary made it onto tier four. But strangely enough, the next movie we're going to talk about on tier five didn't seem quite as extreme.

So yeah, funny games from 1997. Two violent young men take a mother, father and son hostage in their vacation cabin and force them to play sadistic games with one another for their own amusement.

So before we get into it, let's just break down the original Funny Games from 1997 versus the remake, which we see in 2007. So it's almost a... scene for scene, shot for shot, remake of the original. There's nothing different about it except the actors. And our director here is Michael Hennick. I think that's how you say. the fact that he remade the same movie shot for shot kind of told me he's maybe obsessed with his own work and he he is a talented guy he's also known for the piano teacher

I don't know. I don't know how I feel about remaking the same movie shot for shot. Okay, normally I'm not really down for, or not covers, but, you know, remakes. They're not, usually I'm just like, come on. let's just read subtitles um but at the but at the same time in this one i kind of i have to give it a pass because it is a shot it is a direct shot for shot remake

very exacting and made 10 years later. I know that he wanted to bring it to an American or not an American, but an English speaking audience. So, and I, I, think it's pretty amazing and it's actually it's really direct it's a direct reflection of the earlier film now i would say that the earlier film when it came out in 1997 maybe had a bigger impact because of

all of the films that it probably you know that probably lifted little bits from it here and there over the next decade before he remade it so i do think that maybe the the original was probably more impactful than the remake would be. But as far as the films themselves go, I think that they're really comparable and really great films by...

I think it's Michel Haneke. One thing I know about Michel Haneke's films is that he, or with this one in particular, was that he's trying to deliver kind of a message about violence in the media. kind of voyeurism and sort of the audience's responsibility or what is their responsibility in viewing this and wanting to view this kind of hyper-violent content. Let me stop you there because this is on tier five. You got to wonder why this is on a tier five, even with what you're saying, because.

i mean real life violence and you know that happening i feel like we've got like in connecticut we had the pettit murders in cheshire which is like right near me and that just like retelling of that and all the media coverage of that almost seemed like that was more of a tier five than this film.

Okay, yeah. I'm so glad you said that, Susie. So I'm going to jump in here. Listeners, if you haven't noticed, shame, shame. I did not watch Funny Games. I can't do it all. I'm sorry. But I'm so glad you mentioned that because of what I've heard from Funny Games...

It is very like, again, I use this the last time it was on the show, but like a la strangers, like it is like a predecessor of that film. So like what sets it apart from something like that or knock at the cabin. And to your point on the Cheshire home invasion murders that.

happened when I was pretty young and that fucked me up so bad it's the only reason to this day that I struggle watching the live news because I remember seeing like live interviews and crime scene photos of what happened during the chester home invasion and that was a very very gruesome set of murders so i'd love it so we're on tier five now listeners we're officially dipped into the lowest tier we're going to get into on this episode

And Wallaby is with us. So tell me, both of you, what is the extreme horror here? What is it just the gore and the death? Is there something here that happens that you think makes it more intense than Calvert? Libby, do you want to take that first? I don't always agree with the way these films sort of fall within the tiers. To me, Threads is like...

That's like, oh, my God, I can't imagine anything worse. You know, possibly it might have been about the breaking of the fourth wall so much and kind of making. the character there are at least one character in the film in particular is sort of aware that he's in a film and so it's kind of this sort of post-modern take on filmmaking where you have uh one of the

I mean, one of the character literally directly turns to the camera and winks at us, you know, acknowledging that he like knows he's in a film and we're here watching it. And so I don't I don't. I don't know that I'm speaking to your direct question. I don't know why, because honestly, most of, there's very little violence shown on screen in this film. It's, it's one of those ones kind of like killing ground.

Susie, that we were talking about before. Things happen in the film, but we don't necessarily see it, but we fill in the gaps with our imagination of what happened to precede what we're seeing. We have good imaginations, so it's terrifying. And by not showing us the violence, like you say, we have to imagine it. And what's more disturbing, the fact that like you could watch something happen on a screen or the fact that you could.

make it up in your own mind and then knowing that you could imagine such things and you're capable of imagining such horror but lonely to the point you were talking about like what makes this so extreme I think it's like the psychological game. So Peter and Paul come into the house and

They're toying with the victims. They know what's going to happen. They know what they're going to do to them. They knew it right when they walked in that house. And the depraved part is they gave the family like these little bits of hope that. the ending wouldn't be as bad as it actually is and i think that makes it you know extreme maybe not as extreme as this level but i hope that answers your question a little bit

So there's no, I guess Libby answered it as well, being that there's no violence on screen. So there's no like eyeballs getting stabbed and trails. No more. There's no more. That's really, really interesting then for tier five, because I would think that we would need something, I don't know, measurable. And from what you guys are describing, it sounds like a dark comedy.

There's I think there's elements of that. And I do think there is one scene that might be the exception to this where we have a scene play out where.

one of the where the characters kind of you know something something happens and one of the victims is is able to like get a hold of a gun and they end up shooting one of the perpetrators and like blowing him to bits and you see that you see that violence happen right there on the screen but then something really interesting happens which is that uh the other

sort of antagonist in the film uh he doesn't like this outcome you know and so he he's the one who's been aware that he's in a movie the whole time so he just runs over and grabs a remote control off the table and he literally rewinds the scene he's in taking it back to the beginning to kind of achieve a different outcome and it's like taking I mean it's a it's a literal remote remote control but he's kind of taking control to a whole new level

I thought that was pretty interesting. But that's one of the only actual bloody, bloody parts we see. And it's not even that extreme. It is like you see the aftermath, but it's not that bad. And did I hear you say...

that our antagonists names are peter and paul yes did did you both know that those are two archangels or no they're not archangels they're disciples did you know that I did, and they're also beetles. So that's just like really cool. I mean, I haven't seen the movie. So I think it's a cool, just from what you guys are describing in the way that the antagonists have this ability to control the outcome. Like they almost have control over the entire situation in more ways than one, not only.

being an armed intruder, but also in this way that they are kind of godlike. I mean, he can rewind the... the scene and change the outcome. And it's also that interesting little juxtaposition there between a connection to Christianity and the way that the disciples were connected to Jesus in that way. They would be closer to God than the rest of us. So it's a very interesting little tidbit there. But I haven't seen the movie, so maybe I'm just talking fucking nonsense. Who knows?

Lonely, just to reaffirm the fact that you are never going to want to watch this movie. It is totally giving Killing of a Sacred Deer vibes. Ugh. Well, I also was kind of getting that from what Libby... I mean, the scene that's standing out to me from this whole descriptor is the fact where he's, like, rewinding what happened. That really stands out. It sets the tone, really, for me.

And now that you compare it to killing of a sacred deer like that. So we're kind of in like an alternate reality. It's a reality close to ours, but not quite. Yeah. I would say so, but in a different way. Yeah. Yeah. Huh. Well, Can I say one thing about the beginning of the film that I thought was really cool and effective also? Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So the film, it literally opens with kind of a tracking shot as a...

You know, this bourgeois couple is on their way with their kid. They're on their way to their summer home. And they've got a, you know, truck pulling a little boat along the road.

um and they're they're actually the games start like just right away that's what i thought was interesting about it so they're the game and it's a cool play on on sound as well so we're opening with the tracking shot you know god's eye view sort of tracking this this vehicle and we're hearing this beautiful operatic music playing and it's sort of just kind of a pretty little scene that they're setting driving through the woods and whatnot then you know you start realizing that they're some some

speaking happens and you realize they're playing a game in the car they're playing a game of like what music am i playing you take a guess what music am i playing you take a guess you know kind of a thing and it's all this it's kind of uppity classical music and whatnot and so what what you think is non-diegetic sound in the very beginning as we're just kind of uh seeing this

beautiful scene play out you realize is actually diegetic sound that they're they're hearing the music too they're playing the music and they're playing a game while playing the music and then you have this interruption to all of that where this this really extreme music kind of cuts in and interrupts their their game and that's when the real first

uh non non-diegetic sound actually happens in the film and that's when we're sort of blasted with the funny games you know and big you know red writing on the taking up the whole screen And it's really cool. And that's actually that right there was when I fell in love with the movie. And if funny games happens in some alternate reality, we are going to go full-fledged right into... actual reality, dare I say too close to the current reality.

with another film from the Criterion Collection, which is Come and See, 1985. After finding an old rifle, a young boy joins the Soviet resistance movement against the ruthless German forces and experiences the horrors of world war. war ii so i did my homework here i know susie you did not have the stomach to watch this one is that accurate that is correct

Okay, awesome. Well, don't worry. I have made the sacrifice. We both did a tier five, folks. We both did one tier five. So I just want to say, going into this film, I knew absolutely nothing about Come and See and kind of its... critical acclaim and the impact it had not only on

I don't want to say just the horror genre but the the cinema cinematic genre not to go like film nerd because I'm not but this is a really pivotal film in film history which I had no idea and when I had posted that I was watching this for the episode

I had tons of people reaching out to me like telling me how much they enjoyed this movie you know Connor Doyle who had been on our show a couple weeks ago you know he was like oh yeah that's a great film like you need to check it out Ian told me that it was a great film and I have to say despite how depressing and really soul shocking it was.

this is an aesthetically beautiful film. It really is. Like, it's really obvious why this is in the Criterion Collection. The last thing I will say, kind of as an opening thought before I pass it over to Libby, is that, I'll be honest, I've mentioned it on the show before, I'm not... very good with history I have lost that part of my memory permanently so I had to recap myself like what is happening in this film so if anybody's bad at history

like me what is happening in this film is follows the point in world war ii where the german forces are invading what was then the soviet union at that point um the germans were actively killing Jewish people or in putting them in concentration camps. Along the way, they were also killing and imprisoning communists. So the main characters we follow in this film are on a communist kind of guerrilla patrol. army trying to

push back the Nazis and push them out of the Soviet territories. So we follow a young teenager who has been recruited for this. It's called the bipartisan or excuse me, the partisan patrol, I think. And he's been recruited to be on this, this guerrilla. it warfare so and we follow him he i think he's got to be like a 13 or 14 year old boy he is very young and we follow him through this this journey so

Libby, you again, you picked this. So how the heck did you come across this film before seeing it on the iceberg? I'm so curious on how like you were introduced to this film and also like what your opening thoughts are on it as a horror film. As a film itself, I think it's considered to be one of the greatest films of all time. You know, it's also maybe the best anti-war film and very critically acclaimed. It's an awesome film.

But yeah, it sure is bleak. It's a really tough watch. And I think I ran across it just in, you know, probably comment sections of some other video or something where, you know, this was years ago. I've seen this movie several times. Actually, I know what it was. It was a YouTube video and it was called something to the effect of the most terrifying film you've ever seen is not a horror movie.

And I was like, what? You know, like, what are you saying? And so I like clicked the video and then they were talking about this movie. Come and see. And so I watched that and then I. went and watched the the film itself and i couldn't agree more i mean it's right with threads these two threads and come and see to me are the the most horrific terrifying relevant and horrifying films i've ever seen in my life

and isn't it something and this is like again i've been brewing on this since we got this watch list isn't it something that the two most heart-wrenching hardest watches of this list are the two films focusing on war one being a war that has already occurred and in some ways, is a historical depiction of the depravity of humanity that's already occurred with Common Sea, and then Threads, which is a depiction of the human depravity that...

dare I say, has potential to be yet to come. And it is just insanity that war is like the death of humanity in so many of these films. Every good thing about human nature dies once war becomes the central focus of people's lives. The cruelty is like unimaginable.

people who you know were quote good people or empathetic people make decisions that they never would have made under this extreme duress and I loved that you mentioned Libby that the where you found this film was a video that mentioned the scariest thing you've ever seen is in a horror film. Because I don't think Come and See is a horror film. Is it horrifying? Yes. Is it horrific? Yeah, but this is not quite a horror film. It is a true war film or an anti-war film, but I wouldn't call it quite.

horror film so let's talk about kind of some of the things we see when the film gets up and running so we have these two young kids he digs a gun out of this out of the sand and he's warned by an elder That's a bad omen. That's bad luck. And this is supposed to be used to set the tone of the film, that everything that happens to this young boy, Fiora, is because he has kind of done something taboo. He's taken the gun out of the sand.

He's enlisted in the military, and then the first bombing happens. And in the first bombing, he goes partially deaf. And we are introduced to Glacia, who becomes his companion for the rest of the film, who is a girl a little bit older than him. And Libby, talk to me about that scene in the woods with the rainbows and the dancing. Tell me what is going on there because we get surrealist at this point. Oh, my God.

um can you tell me sure well so i had to research this um and i needed a lot of support from my husband to get through this film because dan is such a history buff and he was like yeah yeah yeah this is what this means what that means. So.

The research reflects that this was a form of psychosis that was like an onset of like literally almost dying. So we see Glasha and Fiora, they're dancing in the woods, there's glitter and... rainbows and they're like giddy and like a very unnatural way the day after the bombing and i think it's supposed to show like that's when

the sanity, the little sanity that these two young people have left begins to crack. And that makes a lot of sense when we go into the next phase of sort of the horror, which is when Fiora finds out about his family. Right. Yeah, I think it's it's just it's almost I think unfathomable what they've. Even just the bits that they've seen so far, it's just it's unbelievable and unfathomable, the sort of reality that's setting in. So maybe it is a bit of blurring the lines of what we can handle.

And how we process information under extreme duress. Because then we go into where Fiora is like, as if this wasn't bad enough, like the kids in a freaking war, his worst nightmare comes true. in the next immediately after this bombing he tries to go back to his village and he they discover that his his house is empty and there's a suspicious overwhelming magnitude of flies

And the viewer knows what's happened. We know exactly what has happened. But Fiora doesn't. And that when we get onto this torturous scene with him looking for his family in this bog. And like digging in the bog. And it is just crazy. It is just crazy. It reminded me, and I don't know if you got this vibe.

The scene with the bog and then when he gets back to the rest of the village and they're, like, grieving with him. I got Midsommar vibes when Dani, like, after she gets cheated on and she's, like, heaving and... and they're all crying with her yeah the community support yeah yeah that's the vibe i got when fiora is like getting ready to to kill himself basically because his family's dead

And they're all crying with him and like this wailing. It was really like at this point, it feels dreamlike and like hellish. Would you agree? Absolutely. Yeah, that's a great. that's a really good connection i hadn't thought of that but i can absolutely see it yeah what a yeah what a terrible you know film i mean you've got nazi atrocities happening and just

I mean, I really like the way that it's filmed. You know, we get a lot of more fourth wall breaking. There's a lot of just us either following Floria through the forest or having... you know us pulling him along like from the front you know and seeing his face a lot just kind of And don't you feel like he ages like 40, 50 years throughout the course of this movie? It's considered one of the very best childhood performances ever. And I also read that that the actor who played him.

wasn't like an actor so they wanted someone that wasn't going to be like recognizable and because they wanted him them to be able to draw kind of a natural kind of emotions or something without the sort of worry about perception of audiences to our expectations of what they might expect a particular actor to do or something they wanted to remove all of those barriers and and i did read that he was not um traumatized by this so that's good it was a apparently it was an okay experience and like

you know uh and whatnot but yeah wow so that yeah you made two great points i want to touch on before we talk about the scene the finale so the point on the camera work so again this isn't incredibly impressive film just from start to finish in its production. The camera work is really impressive in that we have these sweeping shots of the landscape, but we also have these point of view shots where we're almost looking from Fiora's eyes on what the heck has happened.

so it literally throws you in to these situations and there's one scene again when he's coming out of the bog realizing his family is dead The point of view of the camera is insane. It's like you're walking through the crowd of people screaming and you're stumbling through. It is the most nightmarish.

POV I've ever seen like in a film because it feels dreamlike and surrealist but in a very like evil way like you're just feeling this torturous feeling that he's going through and i'm so glad you brought up his face so the makeup on this actor this young actor is stunning because at the beginning of the film he's very obvious a young boy

you know he has a bright like his face he's got like the blush on his cheeks he's got freckles and these bright blue eyes and then by the end of the film this kid has wrinkles like he's got wrinkles around his eyes and his forehead he has this permanent face of like absolute terror the way his eyes are set and his the face he makes like with his mouth it's it's literally crazy just the way that they're able to transform this character just with subtle makeup and film and kind of like framing so

just crazy i know i sound like such a film nerd but this is like one of the few examples of film where like i get it like i get it why people are so obsessed with this film despite its its you know content absolutely that was a really good description of what of what we're seeing as the viewer and kind of going through the perspective of floria as he's navigating this horrible landscape and reality of you know i don't even know what happens next for him

Exactly. And that so let's just talk about the finale, because this is as if this wasn't enough to make this a tier five film, we have the ending. So we really don't see the Nazis. too much throughout the film until the ending we know they're there they're sort of like this um like omnipresent force that we know is coming into the territory but we don't know we don't see them we don't see their faces they don't They're not even people at this point. And then we see them.

So Führer is in a, he finds a village after all of this, you know, his friends die. They step on a landmine. He's by himself. He ends up finding this village and the Nazis have invaded this village and they plan to kill everyone. And... I don't know about you, Libby, but even before they get to the point where the actual killing begins, I found myself cringing watching even just the shots of the troops interacting with one another when they're joking and they're drunk and stumbling around.

because I knew what was coming. Even though we didn't see the atrocities yet, I knew what they were going to do and I was bracing myself for what is about to happen. Ultimately, they end up herding all of these villagers into a barn. And they kill them all, basically. In every possible way imaginable, they kill these people in a barn. And the one part that stood out to me in the barn is they're all screaming in the barn.

And there's a lot of children in the barn, obviously. And it reminded me of the sound that lambs make. So it was like lambs to the slaughter. That was the vibe I got. I don't know. I might just be like totally enthralled with this film at this point. Yeah, no, that's amazing. Yeah, you're right.

It's horrific. And then also with the inclusion of sort of like some seemingly real... photographs you know that they're sort of we're going to get historical kind of archival photographs that that are included to kind of show more of these nazi atrocities happening and that's just it's devastating to look at and and the barn scene i'm trying i'm trying to remember um did he is that the part where did they kind of like right toward the there are all corralled into this

area and then there's a little window or something and they're able to kind of he gets kind of stuffed out the window yeah and that's how he escapes yeah so but then he's walking i i feel like i'm not sure if i'm confusing two scenes but I also remember there's a I feel like it's maybe the same part where he kind of is walking around the side the other side of it and you just in the background of the shot you just see this pile

large pile uh you know 50 or 100 you know like i don't know i don't know how many bodies we're looking at but we're it's just a It's such a shock and they don't focus on it or anything. It's just like we're walking through the scene and his eyes are wide and he's in a daze, but we see behind him what he's probably just seen.

right before we do, you know, all these bodies that are kind of piled up outside there too. And it's just devastating imagery that I've never really seen on any other scale that wasn't in like a zombie movie. you know exactly exactly so the way the film ends is fiora manages to get himself out of the window and Before the Nazis begin setting fire to the barn, they say, OK, we'll abandon the children and we'll let you out.

And of course, nobody does that. They're like, absolutely not. But Fiora is in such a state of shock that he manages to get pushed out the window and his life is spared miraculously.

And he eventually gets reconnected with his militia by, I guess, the grace of God at this point. And that's almost where the movie ends. So the militia captures a few of the Nazis who are... at you know who caused this barn fire that killed all of these people and this honestly might be my favorite part of the movie because it's such an interesting like commentary on human nature so the militia is getting ready to kill the nazis

they they give them a chance to be like do you think what you did was wrong like what are you doing and they all for the most part are like yeah we're fucked up people except for like the commander who's like no i believe this fully whatever whatever and when they realize they're about to be killed they all turn on each other immediately they're all like oh no we're with you we're communists like don't worry

We're on the same team. It is the craziest thing because they don't want to die. Absolutely. I mean, I would do the same thing, but I wouldn't be in that situation, but I would grovel. Oh, I would, well, see, I always say I don't have survival instincts. I would have taken myself out. I don't, I don't even mind saying that. If we were in, I would have been like, you know what?

i'm not fit for this so yeah good but this is exactly and then after they so they end up killing the nazis um you know they in There was two options for them to be killed. They could have been set on fire or shot. And the militia actually takes the, quote, you know, empathetic route and shoots them because they don't want to see them lit on fire.

like they did to the people in the bar and which is just again this crazy commentary on empathy even when you're looking at somebody who's done an atrocity like an absolute atrocity so absolutely yeah because two two wrongs you know don't make a right as they say Yeah, and then the film ends with this real footage from the Holocaust. They show us these photos of

prisoners from the concentration camps. And we don't know who these people are and if these are photos of people who are alive or people who have died. And then Fiora sees a photo of Hitler. on the ground and he has this montage in his brain of Hitler growing up so again it causes this empathy he doesn't want to because he's shooting at the picture frame and he stops because he

He realizes Hitler is a person and he doesn't want to hurt anyone. It's a crazy thing because you have this young kid who has seen every atrocity imaginable in war and he doesn't want to kill the person who... caused this it's just crazy absolutely wild it is it's a heartbreaking movie but one of the best it truly is honestly if you feel like you can stomach this content or if you have any interest in world war ii

I would say give it a watch. If you have seen any content on the Holocaust, I feel like there's nothing in this film that will shock you more than what you've already seen about history. And in the... reality we're living in right now i feel like this film is more important now than ever because it speaks to the true things that are lost in war and the true things of humanity that die when war is the strongest power that we have in a culture so

Susie, maybe when you're feeling better. Give it a whirl. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk. How would you compare this to the heaviness of Schindler's List? I think it's... Worse? I mean, better? I mean, yeah. I think it's more intense than Schindler's List. But I loved Schindler's List. But that was such a Hollywood production. And this feels so real. This feels so real.

this feels like you and i think it has a lot to do with the way it's shot and produced susie like when you watch schindler's list and like boy with the striped pajamas and like the kite runner you feel like you're watching a movie you feel like you're watching a hollywood film in a movie theater but when you watch come and see you feel like you've gone back in time and you are watching something that truly happened

It's like a weird, and again, I think it has a lot to do with the way the film is shot and the cohesiveness of this. Because they call it like hyper surrealism. That's the style of storytelling this director has used. And I haven't seen any of his other work. But it feels so immersive. I don't think I would ever watch this movie again. But I do think if you can stomach it, it's a film worth seeing. I'll report back to you on that.

Yeah, keep us posted. But listeners, thank you for coming to my TED Talk. I'm sorry I didn't watch funny games, but as you can see, I wrote a 17-paragraph essay on Come and See. I don't know if I'm going to be able to stomach that movie. Maybe on a really nice, sunny summer afternoon, I could watch it, you know? But that...

i think we're out of time so let's close things down some closing thoughts out of all the movies we've talked about even part one part two and all the tears would would you move any of the films to a different tier why or why not and then a follow-up on that is and is there one film that you would add to the iceberg libby do you want to start us off

Oh, oh boy. You know, I'm sorry that I'm going to ramble here for a second, but I didn't know. I don't remember what the numbers are. I definitely know that there are some areas where I feel like. I understand horror is subjective. So to me, what's horrifying and terrifying is not the same as what is to someone else. All of these films are pretty scary to me. All the ones that we talked about.

But to me, Come and See and Threads would be bottom tier. That's the most horrifying, the scariest, just unfathomable terror. And then the rest feel like Hollywood movies. Is there a movie you'd add to this list? What movies would I add to this list? I mean, oh, yeah. Well, so, well, we've talked about it before, but I mean, Killing Ground. Killing Ground's a great example.

And I thought you were going to pick that one, so I didn't. What tier do you think that would go on? I mean, I would put whatever tier Eden Lake is on. I agree, I agree. So for me, I knew Libby was going to choose Killing Grounds, and that movie is brutal because there's a scene with a baby. that I just cannot erase from my brain, no matter how hard I try. I just want them to go back and find that baby. But one of the films that I think should have been moved to a different tier.

for sure was funny games i don't think that movie was worse than calvair i don't think that movie was worse than eating lake either so i would have flip-flopped probably calvair and funny games but if there was a movie i was going to add to the iceberg that i haven't seen on there which completely destroyed me it's a movie called coming home in the dark have either of you seen that movie Yes, absolutely. Great call. Coming home in the dark. Yes. And speak no evil.

Yeah, it's a movie from 2021, and it is about a schoolteacher who is forced to confront a brutal act from his past when a pair of ruthless drifters take his family and him on a nightmare road trip. And the reason this belongs for sure on this iceberg is something happens in this film that is a parent's worst nightmare, and it happens in a very abrupt way.

It happens at the beginning of the movie. So you're watching this terrible act happen. And then you still have another hour of this movie to go through. And you see the parents like. grieving and dealing with this and the shock and the heaviness actually comes after that initial shocking scene and i don't want to say what it is or what happens in this movie because i think it is a good watch it's a hard watch

But coming home in the dark, it definitely put me in a dark, dark place for quite some time. Yeah, great call, Susie. That's a good one. So I would say I do think that. threads and come and see should be both on tier five so i would move threads like much lower on this this list

And in terms of I didn't watch funny games, but from what you guys have described, it sounds like a dark comedy. So I don't think it needs to be on tier five. And I would keep everything else where it is. But a film I have not seen on the list. Any iceberg so far is the sadness. I know that might be a throwaway, but I feel like the sadness has some intense gore and just absolute fuckery that we've talked about on the show before that would definitely warrant it being here.

Like the eyeball scene. Come on. Like when we were talking about funny games, like I was expecting that level of gore if it was on a tier five. And that is not what was delivered, at least from what you guys have shared. What was that movie that you and I both didn't like and everybody else liked and we got shit for not liking it? When Evil Lurks. Yeah, that could be on the iceberg too. Yeah. And I didn't mean to interrupt.

Before, but you had said, or when you mentioned Coming Home in the Dark, I jumped in with Speak No Evil, which I think is another, the original. Oh yeah, not the Hollywood version. Correct, yeah. So this episode, since a lot of the stuff on the iceberg is...

I guess some of them are deep cuts. I don't know. I went into this thinking we were talking about deep cuts and then we ended up with two fucking films with the criteria collection. But regardless, we're not doing an official deep cut segment. But if we have Libby on the show, we know we're going to get some deep cuts. So Libby, I know.

we talked about some deep cuts when you were with us last time on the horror alphabet and some of them were quite extreme so do you want to remind the listeners of some of those films that we talked about last time that may fit on this iceberg well yeah i was Firstly, the whole reason that I'm here to talk about the iceberg was because I had mentioned at the end of the when we were wrapping up after the last episode that they.

coming up with the alphabet the the horror movie alphabet um was really fun game and i really enjoyed that funny game and so i um it sort of inspired me to kind of kind of look at some more extreme films um that i personally really like um and so i came up with kind of an alphabet of extremes and when i mentioned that to you you were like

we're going to do an episode on the iceberg of extremes. And I was like, I don't know what that is. What is that? That was, it was new to me. So I didn't know what it was, but I had already come up with this kind of list of films. So I think this is also going to tie into. Some of the films, you know, or this is going to tie into the ones that were others to be mentioned that may or may not be on the list already. But I came up with.

with my own little alphabet of extremes, which actually I'll preface by saying there are a couple of letters where I'm like, I'll need some help. So I'll need some audience help or maybe you can help me kind of fill in some of these gaps.

of movies that i'm either forgetting about or just that maybe new recommendations um to check out because i'd love to complete this list and right now i have a couple question marks but here we go okay a audition antichrist a serbian film though a serbian film is horrible and i don't recommend anybody watch it b battle royale be my cat a film for ann baskin c calvaire The ordeal. Come and see. Climax. D. Deliverance. The dissent. Dear Zachary. A letter to a son about his father. E.

Eden Lake, The Exorcist. F, Funny Games, Frontiers, Flowers, which is an indie short shot on video with actually kind of weird color grading, but it's interesting. G. Gummo, the girl next door. H, the human centipede, high tension. I, inside irreversible, I spit on your grave, Ichi the killer. J. Jacob's Ladder? That one I could use help with. K. Killing Ground. Kidnapped. L. The Last House on the Left. M. Martyrs. N.

I need help with N. O. Old boy. I also could use help with O. P. Possessor. The platform. Q. I need help with Q. R, Requiem for a Dream, The Reflecting Skin, S, Straw Dogs, a Serbian film. I really, I don't know why I just said a Serbian film twice. I freaking hate that movie. X that one. The Sadness. Soft and Quiet. T. Threads. Texas Chainsaw Massacre. And Them. You. Under the Skin. Uncien Andalou. V. Visitor Q. W. We are the flesh. Wolf Creek. When evil lurks. X.

I don't have anything for X. Y, I don't have anything for Y. And Z, I don't have anything for Z. Maybe the zone of interest. And you know, a lot of those movies you just mentioned are on the extreme iceberg. are on versions of it that i've seen so yeah some of them are on there i did this list like way before i ever even heard of the extreme iceberg and um yeah so that was just kind of my own personal little list

So listeners, either you are welcome to select any of the films from Libby's list or from the iceberg for us to watch in a future installment. And if you have any fill in the blanks for Libby's missing letters, I think NQ. X, Y, Z ish. Give us a call. Let us, let us know. We can fill in the rest of the list and it is time.

It is time to finally close out. Libby, we are letting you free back into the universe after spending as much time as you have on this deplorable, deplorable episode. You have been featured not on one. but two volumes of the extreme horror iceberg series. Where can the people find more of your work? Um, Thank you so much again. Really, thank you, thank you, thank you for having me on. It's been a blast talking with you again about horror films, which is one of my favorite things to talk about.

And any listeners that want to reach out to me, the best place to do so would be at on Instagram. I'm at Libby Roach underscore. And then there's me, projectile, varmint. At projectile environment. Wait, how do I not know my own? Oh my God. I just, my brain is just falling apart from all this talk of depravity. You can find me at projectile underscore underscore vermin. Yeah, that's me.

And you can find my horror reviews and rants for lonely souls over on Instagram at Lonely Horror Club. I try to post reviews when I can. and cause problems on filmstagram whenever possible. You can also find my writing on my website, lonelyhorrorclub.com. Thank you, dear internet, for tuning in to episode 56 of Nobodies, our second volume in the extreme horror iceberg. As always, sources, additional reading, and all of that fun stuff will be in our show notes.

Call us if you want to fill in the gaps on Libby's Extreme Horror Alphabet or be featured in an Extreme Iceberg episode. Give us a call, 617-431-4322, and keep up with our antics on instagram at nobody's horror podcast and last but not least we would love if you could like subscribe or leave a review wherever you get your podcasts