Welcome back. Last episode we talked with Dr. Jeff Ash and today we're going to continue our conversation. I agree. And you know, you made me think about some of, you know, Adam Grant, the organizational psychologist, has some really great sound bites and pieces from his research that talk about being open to transformative thinking. You know, having dialogue is not about
trying to prove someone right or wrong. It's about being open to really challenging our thinking and transforming our thinking and growing. And when you talk about the self-awareness, it makes me think about how many times I have seen and I have done myself and been participatory in really things that are really come from a place of good intent but land in a way that is really
not it doesn't have the effect that we want. For instance, you know, I think about when we try to and I'm thinking small scope within a class or a course. We try to create these extra resources for our learners like extra study time or extra review sessions outside of class. And while that has good intent, how are we setting up additional barriers and being exclusive and not inclusive of those learners who have barriers to access to coming to a review session outside of class for whatever
reason. They don't have the transportation. They're working three jobs because they're helping their parents pay, you know, hold down the rent at home or whatever it may be. or I think about, you know, something that's really running hot for me right now is the contradictory nature of some of the paradigms we hold as educators when we use words like weed out courses. For instance, like we move towards holistic admission
to try to increase diversity. Well, to me, when we make an admission offer, we're committing to that student and saying, "I believe you can be successful in this program." And we admitted them into it. Then we have a responsibility to help them be successful and think about what are their unique learning needs particularly around students who are first generation college students are navigating higher education for the first time
with lots of barriers or limited resources. And then at the same time we refer to certain courses as a weed out course. To me that's contradictory and undermines our genuine intent if that's what it is. If we do have a genuine intent to really be inclusive and promote equity. Yeah. So those are some of the things that you stirred up for
me in that that really resonate. Well, you know, you really touched on a really important point is, you know, seeing things from more from a strength-based approach versus a deficit-based approach. And I'm not a nurse, but I will share I think, you know, just generationally there's a good number of nurses who hold what's the term phrase I've heard? Nurses eat their young, this lateral violence. You know, I went through ABCDE,
so you should go through a ABC. and that that there has to be a shift in that in that thinking because you're right I've heard that also certain courses well that's the course that usually gets people kicked out. So let's not even frame it like that. And I agree, we do have an obligation to me to, you know, we put folks through interviews and applications and transcripts and letters of recommendations. And then and then to look at them, well, this is the course that usually
gets them kicked out, you know. No, no, let's so that that that thinking really has to shift. You really touched on a really important point. The other point I think is worth mentioning is a lot of times we as human beings, we're conditioned to be right or wrong or to win or to lose. And really for me, the work is, you know, I don't know anybody yet that's won an award for being right the most times. It's really about seeking
mutual understanding, common ground. And you know, higher ed at one point, you know, it was the place where people had differences of opinions and that was valued. You know, I for one, I get a little leery if I give, you know, a presentation, a lecture, and nobody has any questions, right? I'm like, "Somebody should have a question. It wasn't that good, right? Somebody should have a
question." and really hearing having the space to have that kind of really healthy disagreement is really what makes great higher education institutions where we can come together and hear and really hear each other's differences of opinions different different perspectives to me that's what makes it rich but somehow on the way that that that has taken a turn towards extreme
you agree with me or you're against me. And we've got the to reshift our thinking and really embrace that rather than see it as something that's harmful and negative. And even the labels that get put on people when they do try to sort of dance with an issue or put something under a pressure test or a litmus test and it's, you know, the labels of they're being difficult, they're being obstructionary, they're not a team player.
I mean, the list goes on to even more harmful comments that doesn't embrace the space that we need to hold if we're really going to start moving forward in this area. Absolutely. Completely agree with you. Absolutely. And you know, I'd like to transition our conversation a little bit into
really this academic practice partnership. And you know, Jeff, you and I had a very interesting conversation with some nurse managers and we were inviting their perspectives about some of the skills that they thought that new grads, right, leaving not just our program, really any program. What are they needing to do in order to connect with patients, connect with families,
manage conflict? And so we were asking nurse managers to share a little bit about their experience of how nurses are coming into their clinical units in preparation with those skills. And I would just would like you to invite you to share a little bit about, you know, that conversation because I know you
and I had really good conversations. You know, just trying to unpack everything we heard and trying to understand where nursing education can can some things that we can do to do a better handoff, you know, to our clinical partners in that in that arena. So, if you could share a little bit about our conversations and about what we learned from that. Yeah, you know, I was thinking about that and a couple things just stand out to me and some we some of what we briefly
kind of touched on. One is I think generations one generations two just how you know today's students were handling communication how they were handling and some able to navigate conflict pretty well. Some weren't. Some needing a bit more handholding and assurance that they were doing okay. And you know, we have to be mindful of, you know, the I speak generationally because again, you know, there's a generation that's grown up with technology. There's a generation
that's grown up in a more diverse world. So, you know, this is a generation that's grown up where everybody got a participation trophy. This is a generation where you know and I'm probably guilty of this or my wife and I probably guilt guilty of this ourselves helicopter parents where the parents were the spokespeople. So we got a generation now that's out in the workforce and some you know for the first time they're having to advocate for themselves and dealing with conflict
themselves. So this is really why when I think of just nursing education, it's really important for us to help give folks the tools and confidence to navigate through conflict, to navigate and be able to communicate with people who are different than themselves, who have different backgrounds, to really shape and model what that looks like,
how that feels. So that's what I remember from those conversations just folks you know a bit of frustration a bit with with not coming not arriving with the skills to negotiate through conflict with able being able to communicate well what's the term interpersonal skills lacking but again you know it's you know as parents I know I've contributed to that lack of ability to do some of those things by, you know, and society, you know, we like I said, everybody
got a trophy for participating. That sends a message, right? When you get, you know, you didn't win, you don't necessarily learn to be a good sport when you don't get a trophy for losing. So, you know, how to navigate and communicate well are some underdeveloped skills that I think you know come from, you know, technology and how folks have been parented the last 20 or so years which we've all contributed to. So, that's kind of how
I remember those conversations going. Yeah. But I think what you're mentioning, what I heard you say is, you know, tool development, right? So the it's not that these were things, you know, empathy and compassion and therapeutic communication and conflict management. These were things that our learners couldn't learn. It just they just needed more tools. They didn't have any workplace
experience. They maybe went from babysitting their neighbor, you know, neighbors kids to being a nurse in a hospital and that that was their transition into the workplace, you know, except for school, their experience in school, but beyond that. And the one thing that really resonated with me too from a positive perspective is that the conversation nurse manager shared that the younger
generation of nurses coming invited feedback. They loved and needed feedback, a lot of feedback, and they would always say, "Tell me how I'm doing." I think some people might think that's a fault that they needed maybe, you know, not they, but the new grads needed too much feedback, but I think that's a good thing to invite, you know, show me, show me what I need to do. And they said they were most nurses were very forthcoming in doing that. So, I think that's a positive thing.
I agree. I agree. And that's what I meant by the handholding and assurance, the constant feedback. And we all need that. And a word I'm fond of in scenarios that we're describing is practice. We all need practice. Difficult conversations, we need practice. And sometimes you don't get that kind of practice. And with that kind of practice, I think you develop you know better skill, a better skill set, you become more confident.
That's one of the best things about asking questions is asking a question gives you clarity and confidence and you know and a lot of some of that is culturally you know is it okay to ask a question is it okay to ask the same question you know because sometimes you ask a question I know there's times where you talked about the nonverbal and you get the didn't I didn't you didn't you ask me that yesterday And so you know that shuts down inclusion that's a bar uncertainty is a barrier
right so absolutely we all need that sometimes I think sometimes folks get amnesia about back to when they were new or when they first started right we all started we all learned to drive right and we didn't know how to drive so we all had a first day but we didn't have all the answers. And like you said, I think empathy, really seeing it from the other person's viewpoint is important. We talked a little bit about in the academic setting and then your conversations with
the clinical practice partners. It leads me to thinking about bridging the gap between academia and clinical practice. And as educators, we're we're charged with helping prepare our nursing students to be members of the workforce and to graduate and enter the profession. And one that starts with us, right? We have to
do our own work in this area. And two, we have to guide our learners in navigating how to do the work themselves too, so that they are prepared to enter work force and provide inclusive, affirming care for the clients that they care for. So, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this is gonna be a big question, a juicy one. Are there innovative ways that we
can do that? If someone came up to you and said, you know, like what recommendations would you have for folks trying to figure out how to do the work, like the work that we need to do as educators, the work we need to help our learners learn how to do. What are your reactions to that or your thoughts? What would you say? Well, my reaction and thought, you know, and I don't know how innovative this is. But it really does start with with me, starts with you. And I guess I'll start with
like an example. I know a couple of times a week, someone will send me a note saying, email, Jeff, I saw this article and thought of you or I saw this training and thought of you and my reaction is, well, did you read it or are you going to go or how about we go together? So when I think of just recommendations in the work, it starts with you. I think it starts with as we saying being admitting
you don't have it all figured out. I think it starts with and again I don't know how innovative this is but reading it really starts with reading. There I think everywhere now there's a book club. And certainly for anyone listening the school our school of nursing has an amazing book club where our faculty and staff and students come together around reading. Right now our book club's reading a book called the 1619 project and we've
read a number of books over the years. It's this amazing safe platform to come together a variety of perspectives. Some people from the city, some people in the country, some are fac, some are staff, some are black, some are white, some are men, we got women's. It's a great opportunity to come together in a in a safe way. I think it comes with spending time being intentional on spending
time with people who are different than you. I know at one point when I was teaching prior to my university around Baltimore experience one of my for the graduate course I was doing delivering on diversity inclusion one of the assignments was you have to spend some time in a space that you wouldn't ordinarily spend and you got to go by yourself because sometimes people can I take my boyfriend no you got to go by yourself I want you to experience the discomfort of being alone,
being in that space. And when I think of just some of the assignments over the years, it was I forget it was a it was a white man who went to a black barber shop. He went to my barber shop and he initially asked me, "Could he go?" I'm like, "No, no." He asked me, "Would I go with him?" I'm like, "No, no, I'm not gonna go with you. That's going to make that way too easy." I've had people spend time at an intersection with a homeless person to learn. I mean, because I mean, think about it.
When you see the homeless sign, your personal and culture experience tells you who that person is. And I've had students who have spent, you know, half a day with a homeless person at an intersection only to learn that they're a father, a husband, a war veteran who just came upon some difficult times. So, you got to spend time, be intentional, spending time in circumstances and with people who are different than you and
your background. I think again reading there's all kinds of committees, councils, where you can volunteer your time, engagement centers, people in a community. Most associations, I'll just name a couple, like the National Association of Diversity Officers has a journal, Insight into Diversity has a publication. Diversity in higher education has
a monthly publication. So it's really about it's really be about being intentional in in educating yourself, surrounding pe surrounding yourself with people who are invested in that work. and it's again being vulnerable in at least being willing to be uncomfortable for a minute. So you know, I don't know how innovative that is. But I have found that to be the formula that you know that those are things that I do. I read I spend time coffee I mentioned earlier
walking the building. I walk the building. I walk the building. I want to engage. I want to hear where and here here's the other thing I think is important is meeting people where they are. And I mean that literally and figuratively. Meeting them where they are. Sometimes where they are is in the elevator and having a heated conversation. The emotion after a tough exam. Sometime that's in the front of the building when they're all gathered together and you see these animated conversations.
Sometimes that's where u you know folks are eating lunch in in a certain section of the building. You know, sometimes that's, you know, community members who you see, you know, along the sidewalk who are pointing to the building saying that place is whatever. So, it really is about meeting people where they are, meeting students where they are. You know, some arrive I use the acronym,
not acronym, but analogy. If you follow track and field, there are eight lanes and the inside lane is the optimal lane where the lanes are staggered. You know, there's a lane eight that's further back. The race is the same length for everybody whether you start in lane one or lane eight. It starts and ends the same time, but everybody doesn't arrive with the same
things. I clearly remember being an undergraduate student at one point arrived at Towson University, I couldn't count two people that ever set foot forth on a college campus and I would hear jargon. This is I'm dating myself. This is back when you had in-person registration, right? So, I never forget I was handed a sheet of paper and told go to the BERSAR's office. My parents were in the car. I had no idea what the Bersar's office meant. So, it's really about meeting people where
they are. Being intentional on reading, spending time with even for my classes. I have a time where it's just get to know the instructor. I've even done classes where we have what's called the hot seat at the end of class where we take maybe five minutes where you can ask me anything. Typically, students will ask, "Well, how old are you? Are you married? How'd you meet your wife?" But really what I'm trying to do is build create a sense of relatedness because a lot of times students walk
in that classroom they see Dr. Ash. They don't see a husband, a father, an asthmatic, a guy who's pretty laidback from the Eastern shore, they don't see that. They see Dr. Ash. That's who they see. And then and when we understand the barriers to inclusion of status, that type of dynamic and status creates a barrier to inclusion. So, it's really about being intentional, spending time reading, engaging others, reaching out. So sorry if I went a little long there, but that like I said, I don't
know how innovative that is. But I've known that to work and when I think of colleagues and the networks that I'm in, those are the things we talk about. I think that was so helpful and insightful. And there's a lot in there that educators and other listeners of this can take away and put into action. So I thank you for sharing all of that and sharing your wisdom. All right,
Jeff. So what we want to do now, especially since you were talking about the importance of getting to know one another and connecting and reading and learning. I want to ask a few rapid fire questions to get to know you a little bit better. How does that sound? That sounds great. All right. Thank you. Far away. All right. Perfect. If you were to write a memoir, what would you title the book? Wow. I'm sitting here in Mount Airy, Maryland, and I'm from a little town called Millington.
And I grew up in a part of town called Sandfield. So, I guess I would entitle the book a memoir from Sandfield to Mount Airy. And there's a lot in between there that really speaks to me in this moment. I would even say there's a lot of imagery in that. You kind of have field, the word field, and a mountain and I love it. I can picture it. What is on the top of your reading list right now for fun? Wow, that's interesting. When I think
for fun, oh, for fun. Well, what jumps out at me initially is our school is actually we have a schoolwide read called Inclusive Conversations. So I'm reading that and I am reading that on my own time and I'm not being tested on it or anything. So, I would say that's for fun. I would say on my leisure time, I enjoy occasionally just even been doing it recently here, particularly when I think of the Supreme Court justice that was just appointed confirmed last week. I even in my office
I have a picture of Thurgood Marshall. And I have his autobiography and I occasionally that inspires me in a way. So I've been reading that. I love the excerpts from that and seeing how he prepared for cases. Just the oh my gosh the hardships of not being able to eat and spend the night in a lot of these cities where the cases were being presided. He you know having to live and eat a couple hours away from where the cases were
presided over. So that inspires me when I think of you know sometimes during a difficult day and so reading the autobiography th Marshall and right now inclusive conversations I have picked up recently and I'm looking at it now stamped from the beginning. I'm a big Dr. Ibram X. Kendi fan. He came to our campus a couple years ago. And I like the third Marshall book. That's one of the few books I've ever gotten where the author signed it for me. Juan Williams
signed that book for me. So that's what I have out right now. That's great. Another question is what is your favorite quote? You know typically wow I put almost at the end of every presentation and it says it's an African proverb. If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. This work is not work I can do alone. We can do alone. And I don't want to get there quickly. When I get there, I want it to be sustainable. So, that that's my quote. You want to go fast,
go alone. You want to go far, go together. If you could have dinner with one person, dead or alive, who would it be? Oh wow, man. Oh boy, that's a tough one there. Wild, dead or alive. I've always been a big fan of some of the original and original African American orators, if I'm saying that correctly. States I want to say statesmen, stateswomen, statesmen. I think of W.E.B. Du Bois and Carter G. Woodson. But wow. If I had to pick one person,
wow, I would probably say Harriet Tubman. Harriet Tubman's always fascinated being from the Eastern Shore. Always been fascinated of how she made those repeated trips to and from and avoided capture, right? And not, you know, not being a scholar and not well read and using the north star and oh my gosh, absolutely Harriet Tubman. That would be fascinating. I got to tell you, I'm impressed you picked one because, you know, Michelle and I are hosting dinner parties. We couldn't answer
that question. We tried to do it on ourselves. We couldn't come up with one person. We're like, you know what? We're gonna have a dinner party. There's people we want there. That was tough. That was tough because I do, like I said, I'm a big fan of Du Bois and his work. Carter G. Woodson and Frederick Douglass. It's interesting to me to hear to read their thinking during that time and how it's still really still really applicable today. How they were were ahead of their time.
Just ahead of their time. Even when I read up even like Thood Marshall is you know what doesn't get a lot of credit are a lot of the women attorneys who were on his team. Constance Baker Motley who helped prepare some of these significant cases and those should be names that resonate with folks but you know you sometimes don't
hear those names behind the scenes. But just you know it's, there are some folks who pay dearly for me to sit where I sit today and so I love going back and reading what their original thinking was and what their philosophies were . That really touches me. That was hard though to pick one. I'm just trying. Yeah, that was really hard. Right. We wouldn't let you off the hook if you if you couldn't just pick one,
but you did a great job. Okay. Okay. Now, Jeff, you are such an inspirational leader and role model and thinker in this area, and I just want to share my profound gratitude for you sharing of yourself and your perspective and your wisdom with us. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. I don't know I've ever been a podcast guest. This was fun. It's fun. So no, thank you. I appreciate the time and consideration and you having me on.
Thank you for joining us on this episode of NLN Nursing EDge Unscripted Surface. We hope you join us next time. Until then, remember whether your water is calm or choppy, stay connected, get vulnerable, and dare to go beneath the surface.