Welcome back. On the last episode, we talked with Dr. Kyle Johnson about place and space leading with psychological safety. Thank you for joining us. And today, we're going to continue our conversation with Kyle. You know, so we've talked a lot about psychological safety, wellness and wonder, space and place, and I would invite us to take it a step further now
and talk about when it's not there. If that sounds good with you, because what I think is there's times as educators, we find ourselves in situations where the learning environment may not be perceived as safe for risk-taking and learning and sharing thoughts and making thinking visible and engaging fully in active learning
because of the vulnerability. And so I suspect there's probably signs and cues that we could see as educators if we're astute that gives us a little pulse check on perhaps maybe the integrity of the safe container may be compromised or the space in place is in jeopardy. And I'm curious to hear your thoughts on what those signs or cues might be that educators can pick up on and maybe how they can address it and deal with it.
Yeah, that was that's a that is a that is a challenging question to think about is what do you do when you realize that the environment is the safety is being is being threatened. I think that, you know, we talked about cues of what it does look like when when learners are saying, you know, I did I made a mistake or I was wrong or I, you know, or they, you know, they raise their hand and they're willing to ask that question.
You know, I think it takes a lot for learners to raise their hand and say like, you know, this might be a dumb question. I think that that is, you know, and then we tend to say like there's no such thing as a dumb question. That's typically our response to that. But I think that a sign of psychological safety. They feel very safe to share
that question. I think I think that when we see it not happening is when you get people that and it and by by all means I'll say this, this doesn't happen in like your first teaching experience. Like the first time you teach in front of a group of people and you ask a question, you're likely going to hear silence. you're likely going to hear, you know, like nobody's going to
want to raise their hand. I also think that when I had when I used to have when I used to end class and a whole bunch of learners would come up to me and say, I had this question. I had this question. I had this question. I'm like, why why didn't this come out in the class? Like, this would have been a great question. I think that's a sign to me that
I've got to be more inviting of questions. I've got to be more inviting to to share that risk, but I also think that I also think that one of the things that we can do is when we're in class, it's like our time to be on, right? It's like our time to be the best that we can be, which requires so much preparation and things like that. But I go back to, you know, what we would say is over time like a really good pre-briefing is what sets the stage for psychological safety. letting learners
know what's going to happen. Letting them know all of the the things that are to come. And when there's going to be a break, there's so much that comes. Okay, well, I know that there's going to be a break at at this time, so I'll get a chance to check my phone or do whatever. There's so much power in knowing that. But that also takes quite a bit of time to develop that toolkit to not make it sound clunky like you're reading from a script about pre-briefing because we all I
think started with a script. I did. I started with a scripted pre-brief and gradually that's become more that's become more natural and it flows and those students know that this is kind of what I
do. I think at the very beginning what I would go back to, and I've shared this author with y'all a couple of times, Jeffrey Duncan Andrade says that while we're building this toolkit, while we're building this toolkit of, of teacher practices for when we see a a psychological safe environment start to, you know, to to lose its hold, when we see that , and we don't have that task right at hand to wrap it back in. He says that the best thing teachers can do from day one is show up
and show compassion to our students. Like that's what we can do. And so, you know, I tend to think when I have depending on the dialogue, you know, when a when a when a student begins to ask when a student asks a question that I begin to think oo like you just introduced a risky topic. I think one of the things I tend to do is I say, "Thank you for bringing forward that question. That's a great question." And sometimes just a little bit
of silence helps as well. And sometimes I don't know when I'm in those kind of conversations, I'm like, "Let's let that sit for just a second because I'm not expecting, you know, someone to have the answer to that question." Because that's a difficult question. So, let's think about that for a little bit. Let's let it percolate because I know and I even take I need to let that percolate
too. I think that there are all kinds of strategies that we can use and those develop over the time but I tend to think you know the worst thing we can do is shut down the question unless it's getting of course hostile but I think most times learners are genuinely curious and I think it goes back to holding the basic assumption which again feels very scripted the first time you read the basic assumption work from the center for medical simulation but if learners kind of know
that you're not going to only say that you can say it's a safe place all that you want if you don't work to create that, then it's just words. And so I tend to think if they see me as an educator working through that, like, okay, that that was a tough question. Let's lean into that a little bit. Then they learn to know that the next time it's asked, that's going to be the same response
for me. that's going to be the consistency of my practice when we have challenging questions that are brought up about equitability in healthcare or you know some of those dicey topics that tend to get students really conversing with each other. So I think I think everybody has a probably a different toolkit. Those are kind of the ones that I started with but I also think that it doesn't happen on day one. It takes some time for you as an educator to learn from your students. What
works and what doesn't work. And I think being vulnerable and sometimes knowing that didn't land is sometimes encouraging to share the next time. It's sometimes encouraging to share that the next time like you know what that that didn't go as well as I thought it did. There's a lot of power in us being vulnerable in front of our students. I know a lot of people tend to also think that
that can be used against us later. But I do I do believe that there's a lot of power in educators showing their vulnerability when they're you know when they're not certain of an answer, not having the answer. I think that those go a long way for creating psychological safety when you feel it's beginning to to be threatened in a classroom setting. That's great. Thank you,
Kyle. And you know, so I just wanted to share some of the words and themes that were resonating with me as you were speaking, which is consistency, compassion, authenticity, practice, experience, right? It's going to take falling down a few times, and getting back up there and, uh, trying it, trying it again. I think I heard you also say uncertainty and it's okay to share that uncertainty. You know, I don't have the answer. So those were some of the things that
were resonating with me. What about you, Rachel? I totally agree and I would add to this anchoring in what I hear as a teaching philosophy, right? So when we talk about for those who are unfamiliar with the basic assumption, the Harvard Center for Medical Simulations phrasing of the basic assumption is that we believe our learners are intelligent, capable, wanting to do their best,
and wanting to improve. And so anchoring yourself in that and really explaining to your learners what that means and how does that manifest in the learning environments you facilitate and keep revisiting that when that integrity of the safe container may be compromised. Acknowledging it, addressing it and reentering and anchoring I think are really important. I'm also a big fan of the
timeout. We need a timeout, right? Not like the punishing time out, but just like I think Kyle, you said it, just a pause, some silence, a breath, and even just saying that, you know, I'd like all of us just to take a second and kind of reground ourselves in what we're doing and then go into that basic assumption. However that resonates for you in that moment, however you can
articulate that. Yeah, I think so much I think so much lands on that basic assumption and you're and I would agree reminding them if if those if those top if you know if if you start to feel that the safety is threatened reminding them this is where we're at. We all hold learners to this. We believe everybody we believe this about everybody and it
changes us as an educator. It really does when you begin to truly believe that and every interaction that you have with a student that we believe is just a curious learner, a curious individual or you know on their own continuum of of of who they are. A lot of work has been discussed I think with us about the ladder of assumptions as
well. It keeps you on that bottom ladder and without getting too deep into it you know for anybody listening that just go Google the ladder of assumption or yeah the ladder of assumptions just go Google that and it keeps you at that ground level of I just received some data and before I you know a learner comes up or a learner in class says something that maybe initially like oh wow that's making me really uncomfortable it's you know I'm not sure how to take that
or I have a whole bunch of assumptions about that and the latter is like okay well you just gave a whole bunch of data and I know nothing else about that. What I do know is the basic assumption about you that we believe you're intelligent. We believe, you know, and if you stay on that level, it really changes the whole conversation that comes after that. I think that that's what I tend to think is it changes everything about
what the follow-up question is to that. Yeah, I so appreciate you bringing that up, Kyle, and you know, Chris Arduous calls it the ladder of inference, and you're right, like we climb up that ladder. so intuitively and subconsciously without realizing it. So just to validate for folks who may be listening and thinking, "Oh gosh, you know, this is all well and good, but there's these moments where it's really hard
to anchor in this basic assumption." I think it's important to validate that we're all wired that way. That's normal. We all have the experiences where like what is this student thinking? Or, you know, I think a lot of people can resonate with how did this student get to this point in the program? How did they make it to this class? Right? And it's this visceral knee-jerk
that that is climbing up that ladder. And the basic assumption and rooting ourselves back in our teaching philosophy and the tenants of that and for me the basic assumption is one of those tenants of my teaching philosophy helps me climb down that ladder exactly like you're talking about and come back to hang on a second. I really do believe that my learners are intelligent, capable, wanting to do their best, wanting to improve and it go back to your wellness and
wonder. It allows me to to tap into that wonder, that curiosity of, okay, so what is getting in the way of these really well-intentioned individuals that's leading to this point and then I can meet them where they are, get curious, and leverage my expertise to help move them forward. So, I appreciate you bringing that up. Well, and I think if we go back to things about like what educators can do. So, here would be like one one thought on that is that, you know, people say,
"Well, what do I do? How do I do that?" Like and again that comes with time and I would tend to say if if you as an educator find yourself doing what you Rachel just described like oh you know your first thought is how did they get here but then you challenge that you're on your way to building a place for psychological safety giving safe for a safety and space for wellness and wonder like you're doing it. So when you say like what can I
do? So much of that is here for you as an educator and that when you leave a situation you're kind of like how could I have done that better or wow I you know I did not I climbed straight up the ladder of inference and you know exploded versus okay I just got this information and here's what
we're going to do with that. If you're doing that internally and dealing with that discomfort of how do I how do I ask the best next question if I'm not jumping up the ladder of inference then you are on your way to creating psychological safety and you are doing your best for a learner 10 years from now to look back and say wow they made me feel really well and they really made me a curious wondering person I tend to think that that's the impact of us going through that as educators
that's the impact that you can have for lifelong learning. That's good. Yes. So good. That's great. Thank you. And I love ending with this idea of things that we can look at as an educator of of knowing that we're on the right path. Right? you know, when I when I'm checking myself and climbing down that ladder, I'm really do showing up the best I can for my my learners. And I think that's important to to remind ourselves as educators that it's a practice. It's a process. It
evolves over time and we're getting there. We're on the right path. It's very reassuring. So, Kyle, I wanted to know if you were ready for some rapid fire questions. Absolutely. you're gonna find, you know, I'm an academic at heart, so some of these are probably going to be very academic rooted, but let's go. That's okay. We are all super nerdy, right, Rachel? Right. Yes, we are very nerdy. So if you were to write a memoir, uh, what would you
title the book? So, again, we talked about a lot of these things in this conversation and that's even and this would hold true for the last five years. When I had to think about a title, it would be Something Shifted - How I Learned to Love Uncomfortable Conversations. And so that really would be it. And again, I'd have to channel like Adam Grant and his work on think again, rethinking, but it really would Something shifted is a quote that really resonates me with me from
the book educated. I could I would spend an hour unpacking that, but yeah, something shifted how I learned to love uncomfortable conversations. Oh. Kyle, I have a nickname for you and I'm just going to call you Kyle the mic dropper Johnson because every time we ask you these questions like and it started way, you know, back when we were doing maker space conversations and we'll ask these questions and you have these like hippy just really transformative like aha moments. So you
have a new nickname, Kyle Dropper Johnson. That's awesome. Thank you. I like that. I like that. I tend to think they're pretty nerdy, but again, I feel like we're all we're all nerds at heart, so What is on top of your reading list right now for fun? For fun. You know, so I have a Kindle with a whole, again, I think like any of us, we probably have a whole bunch of books that we would love to read. Right now, I needed a break from anything that made me think about stuff. So,
it's actually John Grisham. I've never read a book by John Grisham. And I'm actually really enjoying it. So, I've got a list of his books that I'd like to read, but I recently read, The Giver of Stars. really really good book that I enjoyed and The Invention of Wings. Those are those are two books that I've recently read that were a lot of fun to read. Oh, that's great. What is your favorite quote? Again, it's gonna it's it's going to go back. So, one of
them would be something shifted nonetheless. And the reason I talk about that is it really centers for me being something that we're always on this shifting moving environment. But what I think I would say is the one that would has lasted for the long time longest time is one by oh my gosh now
I'm going to go blank on his name. Highaidiger teaching is harder than learning because what teaching requires is this to let learn that's it and there's so much to unpack in that and again I think just I love education and when I read that that really centers in my teaching philosophy just to let learned that's probably one of my favorite quotes that keeps me centered I you know that word or that phrase to let I the word that comes to my mind is surrender and that's a hard
thing for most of us to do most of us humans absolutely if you could have dinner with one person dead or alive who would it be oh gosh if I could have dinner with one person dead or alive I think I'd have to stick pretty personal here and it would it would be it would be my grandmother, so she was a huge encourager of me, really as someone that had a lot of health care needs towards the end of her life. She got to see me become a nurse. She got to see me, she got to
see me get married. She got to see quite a bit of my life. But I think where I'm at now that's who I would love to tell like about how I became a teacher. She didn't get to see that part of my about of my journey. So I think it would be my grandmother because she grew up with without a lot and so I think it'd be sitting down with her and just kind of talking to her about where life has taken me. And she never got to meet her grandkids.
So again, a lot of that would be really personal, but I think that she'd be at the top of my list because she really influenced me in becoming in becoming a nurse. And I think that her last thought would be, you know, that I would be in the hospital caring for patients, you know. And I think she also knew that I would have become a teacher if she would have been able to see
that. So yeah, that's who it would be. Thank you so much Kyle for sharing all of your insights and thoughts about psychological safety and all your mic drops. We appreciate all of them. I am definitely calling you mic drop from now on. And thank you. Thank you. Thank you for joining us. Thank you all. Thank you all for having me. I love having conversations with y'all in all different parts of the world and in person and via Zoom. It's always a learning experience for me as
well and always really enjoyable. Thanks so much, Kyle. And thanks for being a leader in best practices of teaching across environments and a leader in modeling psychological safety. It was a pleasure talking to you as always. Thank you. Thank you for joining us on this episode of NLN Nursing EDge Unscripted Surface. We hope you join us next time. Until then, remember, whether your water is calm or choppy, stay connected, get vulnerable, and dare to go beneath the surface.